a16z Podcast - a16z Podcast: Ancient Dreams of Technology, Gods & Robots

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

with Adrienne Mayor (@amayor) and Hanne Tidnam (@omnivorousread) Is it possible that ancient Greeks and Romans dreamed of technological innovations like robots and artificial intelligence millennia before those technologies became realities? In this episode of the a16z Podcast, Adrienne Mayor, historian of science and author of the just released Gods & Robots: Myths, Machines, and Ancient Dreams of Technology, discusses with Hanne Tidnam the earliest myths around ideas of technology and even artificial life from the ancient world -- from the first imagined robot to walk the earth, to actual historical technological wonders of the ancient world such as mechanical flying doves or a giant miles-long parade of 10-foot-tall automatons. What do these early imaginings of technological invention tell us about human nature? And what can we take from understanding the deep roots of this mythology for the era of technology, today? Mayor is the 2018-19 Berggruen Fellow at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences at Stanford, and author of The Amazons: Lives and Legends; Fossil Legends of the First Americans; and The Poison King, which was a National Book Award finalist.

Hi, and welcome to the A16Z podcast. I'm Hannah, and today I'm here with Adrian Mayer, historian of science, and author of the just-released book, Gods and Robots, Myths, Machines, and Ancient Dreams of Technology. Mayer is the 2018-19-Bergroom Fellow at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences at Stanford, and her previous work has been on the science buried in ancient legends, Native American legends about dinosaur fossils, legends about ancient Amazonian women warriors, to King Mithridates, the Poison King, for which she was a National Book Award finalist. In this latest book, Mayer shows us the earliest myths around ideas of technology and even artificial life, from the first imagined robot to walk the earth, to actual historical technological wonders of the ancient world, such as mechanical flying doves and giant parades of self-moving automatones. So, Adrian, let me just start with what first turned your interest towards these ancient ideas around technology and artificial life?

Well, as a folklorist and a historian of ancient science, what I'm interested in are the very first inklings of the scientific impulse in pre-scientific cultures, especially antiquity, especially ancient Greece and Rome, and associated ancient cultures. So I moved to Silicon Valley in 2006, where there's just so much advanced innovations in automaton's and AI,

and trying to extend the lifespan and surpassing nature, that I just started wondering, how deep are those roots? And when did those desires and actual endeavors begin? There's a lot of natural knowledge and even scientific folk knowledge, if you will, embedded in mythology. And all of my projects have been investigations into finding what's real in myths and legends and antiquity. Archaeology of knowledge. Absolutely.

Sometimes I call myself a historian of human curiosity. That's wonderful. What a great job. So what do you actually mean by technology? What do you actually mean by ancient ideas about artificial life? Let's do some definition setting, just so we know what language we're speaking back then and now around these ideas. How would you define technology itself?

Well, a lot of philosophers of science have doubted that ancient Greeks were able to imagine automaton's and self-moving devices before the technology actually existed. And my goal was to see whether those things could be thinkable long before the technology existed. You could call ancient mythology cultural dreams or ancient thought experiments. They're basically the very first science fictions before science. What I'm interested in are automaton and self-moving devices visualized in mythology about gods and heroes and humans that were described as

beings that were made not born. And that's a critical distinction the whole way through the book, right? That is a critical distinction in antiquity and now if something is manufactured or fabricated and not reproduced biologically. That is the dividing

line between real and natural human and non-human animate and inanimate. Artifice, basically. Artifice, imitations of nature. The god who is most involved in creating self-moving devices and automaton's is Hephaestus. He was the god of blacksmithing and forging with bronze, but he was also the god of invention and technology.

He was the only god with a job. He's the only one who breaks a sweat when he's working. All the other gods have lives of leisure, and they are in awe of his special abilities in his forge with technology. and invention. So they ask him to make them special weapons, various bubbles and contraptions for the gods. He made automatic gates for Mount Olympus that would automatically open and close when the gods or goddesses approached with their chariots. He also made a fleet of what you might call automatic butlers. These were tripods on wheels that would deliver ambrosia and nectar to the

God's Feast and then return automatically to him when they were empty. All these devices were described by Homer. This is 2,500 years ago or more. We're hearing about ancient Greeks imagining self-moving devices and automatones. And so does technology mean to you the tools to have made those things? Basically, essential definitions that can be accepted now, and we can apply back to antiquity to the, myths and then to inventions beginning the 4th century BC. A machine is essentially a device

that changes the direction or magnitude of a force. So a machine, the very earliest machines, humans always had a desire to make machines to enhance their own abilities and powers. So an addle-addle or the first bow and arrow, those are essentially machines. An addle-addle-addle? An addle-addle preceded the bow and arrow. It was a device that, held a spear, stable, and then you could throw the spear using this device. It would go much further and much straighter. I guess the principle today would be those devices that you used to throw balls for your dog at the beach. Right, right, okay. But with a spear. Yeah, but as you see, it's a human enhancement. It amplifies the magnitude and refines the aim and distance of the missile. So those are

the first machines. You also use the word an automaton. Maybe we We can break that down. Automaton is usually understood as a self-moving construction that can carry out a job or a task. And some automatons can actually respond to their environment or a situation. And the word robot, is that interchangeable with automaton? Robot, even today, that's a very slippery term. There are many different definitions floating around usually means a machine or some kind of self-moving entity or self-moving device or automobing device or automatic device that has some sort of power source.

You use the word biotechney quite a bit. Is that what you're using to think of as sort of early ideas around literally artificial life? Or what's the relationship there? Many ancient cultures have stories and tales and myths about lifeless entities brought to life magically by a god or a magician's spell. And instead of inert things brought to life by magic

or the command of a god, I'm looking for myths and stories and ancient accounts of automaton's and self-moving devices that were technological products. Hephaestus used the same tools and implements and materials that an ordinary blacksmith used. But of course he had awesome abilities and his products of technology were spectacular, what you would expect of a god. But using regular, recognizable everyday tools. Exactly. And these entities that were made not born, they were made by a process that the Greeks would call biotechne,

which means life through craft. And it is the root of our word biotechnology. So what we're looking at are ancient myths imagining automatons and self-moving devices created using biotechene. or an ancient version of biotechnology. What an amazing idea. So you opened the book with a story about the very first robot. The very first robot to walk the earth was the bronze robot named Talos.

The story of Talos is very ancient indeed. It goes back to Hesiod and Homer, who lived in the period of 752-650 BC. So we're talking about an extremely ancient imagining of a robot made of bronze set to work on earth. He was created by the god Hephaestus for Zeus to give to his son, King Minos, to protect Minos's kingdom of Crete. He was able to march around the island of Crete three times a day. Some people have estimated that he went maybe 500 miles an hour.

So a fast. And he was not a mythical creature. He was made, not born. We actually have his internal workings described. Talis's job was to notice ships that were approaching Crete, strange ships, pirates, or other invaders. He would then grab boulders and hurl these boulders at the ships to destroy the ships. But in close combat, should anyone come ashore,

Telos had yet another capability, which was to heat his body, red hot. He's made of bronze. He's able to heat his body until it was red hot, grab up a victim and crush them to his chest, and roast them alive. This is a horrible way to go. Yes. So he's a guardian. He's a guardian of Crete, and he is somehow aware of his surroundings. He can spot approaching ships, and then he can decide to take action. Ancient coins of Crete depict Talos as a giant man hurling boulders, carrying out his job. Now, in the ancient epic of Jason and the Argonauts, Jason and his sailors almost became victims of Talos. So the story of Talos was also told by Apollonius of Rhodes. So what was Talos's power source, if that's an essential part of the definition of

robot? Telos can be defined as an ancient robot because of his source of power. Hephaestus created him of bronze, he was hollow, but he had a single artery that went from his head down to his feet. And in that artery pulsed not blood but icor, which was the fluid of the gods, which made them immortal. And the entire vivacistam, if you will, was sealed with a bronze bolt on his ankle. So he is a product of technology. The definition is really clear that he was constructed by a god of technology and innovation. Well, and he was defeated by precisely that one ankle hinge, right? Medea, who was a sorceress,

was accompanying Jason and the Argonauts on their quest for the golden fleece, figures out how to destroy Talos before he can kill them. She says, we don't know if he's immortal, but we do know that his entire system is sealed by. that bronze bolt on his ankle. Let me see if I can persuade him to allow us to remove the bolt. And she uses her powers of persuasion on this giant bronze robot. And here's where we know that he has some human features of sentience, that he has emotions. She tells him that she can make him immortal. And he wants to become immortal. He has desires. He has a desire to live forever. He

doesn't want to be destroyed. And that is his downfall. He agrees to allow Medea and Jason to remove that bolt from his ankle. And the myth says the ICOR poured out like molten metal. Which is another very technological image. The other interesting thing to me is that there are at least two ancient vase paintings from about 450 BC that show Jason and Medea using a tool to release that bolt on his ankle. Like a wrench or like a, what does it look like? It's very hard to see, but if you use a magnifying glass, it looks like a small wrench. That is amazing.

So they're working on the robot. Which confirm that Talos is conceived of and imagined as a technological product, a product of biotechne, that he really was manufactured and not a giant human or something magical. So the thing that stands out to me and that is this wrestling with this idea of like a creature created for service to humans, but that sort of on this blurry line of sentience and not sentience, right, which is something that persists with us today, right? Our anxiety around this sentience or not. Yes, and today a lot of social scientists and psychologists try to understand why do we tend to humanize robots and AI. and automaton's.

We can't help it. I know. We tend to bestow life and desires and human emotions to them, even though intellectually we know it's not true. Well, that was true in antiquity, too. Medea suspected that this bronze man might have human emotions, and she played upon those and exploited them. The other interesting message from the story of Talos

is that he was a product of technology, carrying out his duties, but he was destroyed by technology too. I also think it's really interesting that you see these glimmers of wrestling with issues around command and control, right? Like that this is a robot who has been programmed to do a certain kind of protection, but anxiety we cannot control. There were ancient plays about Talos in antiquity. We know that he was humanized and people felt empathy for him. Was it a blend of empathy and fear? Oh yes, as today. It was then also an ambivalence, a sort of mixture of dread and awe, but also a kind of pity for the robot who was simply going about his assigned job and was taken in by a trick. There are some ancient vase paintings that show Talos being destroyed and he's falling backwards and you can see the rivets and the seams of this bronze giant. And yet there is a tear.

falling from his eye. So in antiquity, people did feel sympathy for this robot. That's a heartbreaking detail. It's interesting in that this story is really kind of a very early imagining of a kind of military technology that we're starting to see become a kind of reality in certain ways. How else did the ancients think about this kind of line in a technology around conflict? There's another very interesting story in the epic saga of Jason and the Argonauts. in which Medea was involved, again, in helping Jason figure out how to deal with another kind of robotic juggernaut that he had to face.

Medea's father, the king of Colquise, imposed an impossible task on Jason before he could get the golden fleece. He had to yoke a pair of fire-breathing bronze bulls. These were robotic bulls made of bronze, by Hephaestus, of course, and they breathed fire. Now, the king thought that Jason would be killed, burned up by these robot bulls, but Jason was able to yoke them. So the king imposed another task.

You need to plow a field, and you need to plant dragon teeth, which will immediately grow into an automaton army. Many people remember this scene from the cult movie, Jason and the Argonauts from 1963. It was a horrifying scene. No one can forget, if they've ever seen it, these skeleton soldiers armed with swords

popping up out of these plowed furrows, and they're unstoppable, and they're multiplying, and they are programmed, so to speak, with one task to go forward and attack. That is all they can do. They cannot be led, they cannot retreat, and their orders can't be changed. So Medea figures out,

how to trigger their programming to destroy them. She advises Jason to throw rocks into their midst. And the blows on their shields trigger their attack programming, and they begin attacking the soldier nearest them, their own companions. And they feel the blows on their shields and begin to attack each other, hacking at each other with their own swords. Jason and his men can now rush in and finish them off. And this story really has a lesson about cyborg soldiers and issues of command and control.

It's essentially hacking, right? She sort of hacks them to... I like to call Medea a techno wizard because she seems to be able to figure these things out by thinking about the programming and the systems of these inventions of the god Hephaestus. And she's able to destroy them by using their technology, turning their technology, against them so you could call her the first hacker. I hadn't thought of that. I love it. No, I mean, it's true, right? She's hacking the system. Let's talk a little bit about Hephaestus, this amazing god of invention, because Talus was not his only invention. He had a huge range, and that range

shows quite a bit of all the different ways that the ancient Greeks were thinking about invention, technology, and creation. What were some of the other tools and inventions that Hephaestus was known for creating. The god of invention and technology Hephaestus had a fantastic resume. And not only did he invent the first automatic garage doors for heaven. He also

invented a staff of golden women who looked like real women in every way but they were made of gold and they were endowed with strength and intelligence and he then bestowed upon

them all the knowledge of the gods. This is essentially a data dump of information they don't really need, but who knows, they might need it in helping him. I think you said life-like humanoids. They were these golden servants, female androids, who bustled around his workshop anticipating his every need. And so these were AI servants. You say mobile with reasoning and intelligence, but critically they were not human. So yes, this is a kind of pre-AI. idea of artificial life. Yes, I think so.

They're lifelike. They are self-moving. They anticipate his needs, and they have a huge wealth of information stored inside them just in case it might be necessary. So essentially they are the first AI entities in Western literature. And it was Homer who describes these. What's interesting about Hephaestus' marvels,

and inventions, is that they were almost all created for the benefit of the gods in the heavens. In service to them. Yes, but when Hephaestus made things that would be sent to Earth, that's when problems arise.

There was another entity that Hephaestus was commanded to make by Zeus, and that is Pandora. Now, Zeus was very angry about humans receiving the secret of fire from the Titan Prometheus. and as we all know he punished Prometheus by chaining him to a mountain top and Hephaestus forged a bronze eagle to come like a drone at the same time every day

and peck out the liver of Prometheus. That was the punishment for stealing fire from the gods and giving this very important technology to humans. But Zeus also created a very merciless punishment for humans for accepting that gift of fire, Zeus commanded Hephaestus to make an artificial woman that he would send down to earth to bring ruination to all humankind.

And Hephaestus created Andorra, who was, once again, made not born. She had no childhood, no memories, no parents, no emotions. She was programmed with one task only. She was sent to Earth with a sealed jar or box that contained every human misery and all the suffering of humankind. Her only task on Earth was to insinuate herself into human society and open that box. We never hear from her again.

She completed her task on Earth. Delivered the box. Originally it was a jar, but throughout the ages it became a box through a mistranslation in the 1500s, something like that, but it was a jar. that she opened and released all the miseries and sufferings. You wrote an article recently about the importance of this story for modern technology. Why do you think it resonates so much still today? When people talk about AI and robotics today, sooner or later somebody talks about or brings up Pandora's box.

And that's very appropriate because we can think of all of the advances in technology and AI and robotics as a kind of Pandora's box that we're opening. But the original story was rather different. Pandora comes down to Earth. She is escorted to Earth by Zeus's messenger Hermes. And Hermes takes Pandora to Prometheus's brother, Epimetheus. Now, their names are very interesting. Prometheus means foresight, looking ahead in Greek. Epimetheus, he's a cheerful sort of happy-go-lucky guy.

He's the perfect patsy. His name means hindsight or lack of foresight. He's unable to look ahead. So he's the perfect person to receive Pandora into his life. And he is dazzled by the short-term gains the beauty of this ravishing artificial woman. And Hesiod, the ancient poet who tells us this story in about 700 BC, says that Epimetheus only realized his mistake. but Prometheus attempted to warn his brother Epimetheus. Prometheus is justifiably paranoid about Zeus's gifts and commands and things that Hvestus

makes. So he warns Epimetheus not to accept Pandora into his life or her dowry, which is that sealed box. Epimetheus says, yeah, but she's beautiful. And I'm going to. And I'm going to. Basically, what's really important today is whether one is going to be. be a Promethean or an epimethean when considering AI and advances in technology. Foresight is really important, but we tend to be more like epimetheus and going for the

short-term gates. I thought it was very interesting when you talk about the Aristotle's sense of the consequences, of the economic consequences of these inanimate instruments and things that do labor for us. Can you talk us through a little bit about how Aristotle was thinking about those consequences? One reason I wrote this book is to point out that these stories are kind of a mythology for the age of AI. And I think it's interesting that in antiquity, these myths about robots and automaton's and self-moving devices and even AI were good to think with, even for philosophers. So we have Aristotle who actually defended the practice of slavery in Athens, ancient Athens.

And yet, in one remarkable passage, Aristotle starts to muse on the old myths of Hephaestus making these golden women to help him in his shop and the traveling carts that fed the gods and then returned, a bank of bellows for his forge that actually could adjust their blast according to his needs. Aristotle mentions all those, and then he sort of throws out a thought experiment. Well, if we had such things today in our real life, if we had looms that could weave by themselves or musical instruments that could play themselves, there would be no need for slavery. And if only he had gone on with that thought, but he didn't. He stopped right there. It seems to be something that occurred to him and then he moves on. A flicker, yeah. And yet that

that flicker of realization of what automaton's and automation, how it could affect a society both socially and economically occurred to Aristotle back in the 4th century

BC. You talk quite a bit about how these were ways of thinking about ethics overall. Were there differences that you noticed when you went back between sort of how some of the ancient Greeks and Romans were thinking about the ethics around these ideas about artificial life and the way we tend to think about it today.

I have an article coming out called tyrants and robots, because in both myth and historical times in antiquity, it's tyrants, autocrats, who are really interested in deploying automatons. The enhancement of power. It's a way to amplify your power. And so we have Zeus, who is the all-powerful God. He's the Lord of Gods and Men. and he commands Hephaestus, forces Hephaestus, sometimes against his will, we hear, to create a killer robot for Minos on Crete,

an evil Fembot, Pandora, to devastate humankind. And then we hear about kings in myth, who own a pair of robotic fire-breathing bulls that would kill anyone who came near them, or can deploy an automaton army, that can't be stopped. So kings are very interested in having these automated, animated statues and various robots. It's interesting that even back then there was an awareness of the deep relationship between power and technology and potential imbalances as well. Let's talk a little bit

about the actual early historical examples that you touch on in the book. You spend a whole chapter talking about some of the actual technology that you were able to pull out of the archive. What were some of those examples? Well, in antiquity, there certainly was technology. The use of robots and self-moving devices by autocrats in myths was echoed in real life. There are many instances of real kings with absolute power who deployed automaton's and animated statues, not just to aggrandize their power, but to actually kill masses of people. Artisans and craftsmen and sculptors and engineers

offered their services to autocrats because they knew they would be rewarded. Those autocrats and monarchs held contests to find new innovations in military machines. That's how the first catapult was invented for Dionysus, the first. It makes me think about how DARPA holds contests for various things. And incidentally, DARPA is currently working on an automated exoskeleton that will have AI capabilities for soldiers.

And they deliberately came up with the acronym Talos. Oh, they did. Oh, interesting. Well, that works very well. The first surface-to-air missiles that were built after World War II were called Talos missile. Talos missiles were placed on ships, and they patrolled the seas. It's a very similar function to ancient Talos. Guardian weaponry. Yes.

The very first automaton that could fly was created by a friend of Plato named Architas. He was just a polymath, a brilliant inventor, engineer, and a general. And he created an artificial bird in the shape of a dove that could fly several yards. It had to be reset after it flew. but this was a rather amazing invention. It caused a big sensation. Modern engineers are fascinated by this historical incident so early, 4th century BC,

and they guessed that it was probably steam-driven by captured steam. We have only a small fraction of what was written down in classical antiquity. So what we have just shows the tip of the iceberg of real inventions. There was also a mention of actual real robots at that time. What was that?

Well, I can tell you about some benign robots and some evil robots. Okay, let's hear both. That were actually designed and manufactured in antiquity. The king of Sparta, Nabus, came to power in the 200s in Sparta. He was a very harsh dictator. He was widely detested, and he ended up being assassinated in 192. BC. He and his wife ruled with an iron hand, and their reign was long remembered for extortion and actually torture and mass killings of citizens of Sparta and the surrounding territories.

Many historians said that his wife, Apega, was even more cruel than Nabus. One of his great ideas was to have some engineers create a robot in the shape of his queen Apega. It looked just like her. It maybe even had a wax face that was cast from her face. And he dressed it in her finery. What an incredible image. Yes. Someone has recreated this. You can find it on YouTube, a Polish engineer. So he created this fake Apega who could move. He would invite citizens in and ply them with wine and try to persuade them to turn over their property to him. And if they refused, he would say, well, perhaps my queen, Opega will be more persuasive. And he would take them to meet Opega. And as they went forward toward Apega, who was seated on a throne, and they

reached out their hand, she suddenly stood up and clasped them to her body. What was she powered by? She was probably powered by cams and springs and levers. And we know that Navas then went behind her and worked the levers and springs. Like the Wizard of Oz. Yes. And remember that torsion catapults had been invented by this time. So some of the same mechanisms probably were being used in a smaller scale for this evil robot. And he worked the levers and springs in the back and caused her arms to draw the victim closer and tighter with a ratcheting sort of effect and increasing the pressure.

And the most diabolical detail is that under the finery, her entire body was studded with nails. So she was an earliest version of an Iron Maiden. But she was robotic. The Iron Maiden was not. He increased the pressure. So it was a tortured device. Wow. Well, let's hear the story of the happy benign robot now to just even it out.

Ptolemy the second Philadelphus of Alexandria was an example. extremely powerful monarch. He lived in Alexandria, which was the hub, the center of innovation and engineering inventions, where craftsmen and brilliant engineers were actually creating genuine self-moving devices and automatons. And many of them, many of the most spectacular ones, were displayed in the grand procession of Ptolemy, Philadelphia. And this grand procession went on.

for days. It covered many miles. It was a parade of essentially floats. And it was for this purpose to show this incredible, almost supernatural and divinely inspired power of Ptolemy, Philadelphia's. They were really spectacular. I'm sure that they caused a sensation of the uncanny valley effect among the observers along the route. These floats were pulled by sometimes 600 men. they were so heavy. Incredible. On top of these carts were gigantic, self-moving statues of gods. One of them was of Dionysus, and right behind Dionysus came a statue of the goddess Nysa,

who had been the nursemaid of Dionysus, and she was seated on a throne, dressed in yellow silk, and she was holding a jug of milk and a bowl. Do we know what they were constructed of and what mechanisms? Because they were so heavy, they were probably not. constructed of metal or bronze, perhaps some gold plating, but they were probably constructed of wood and plaster. She was 10 feet tall. She periodically along the root stood up and poured from the jug into the bowl actual milk, which overflowed onto the root so people could see that it was actually milk. And then she would sit down again. Now, this has to be a very robust

mechanism for her to stand, pour. I'm wondering how the milk even got in there and where. That's why these carts were so heavy and had to be pulled by so many men. So the tank of milk would be hidden and how do you get that much milk? People have tried to figure out how the statue worked. It had to be robust enough to allow her to stand and pour and sit down in a stately matter as befitting a goddess. It couldn't be jerky or awkward in any way. And she was just one statue of how many? She was just one of them. Well, the parade went on for miles. Wow. So there are many of these. Oh, that's amazing. What a sight. So we know that a lot of the same themes tend to come up, right? This relationship of technology as power, issues around command and control, human, not human,

questions about sentience and empathy when it comes to these made, not born beings. It gives us is this awareness, right, that some of these issues are as old, perhaps as civilization itself. What do we learn from thinking about these ancient legends and understanding that the deep, deep roots of the technological ideas? Well, the deep roots show us that there's always been a connection between mythology, imagination, and science. And the fact that its roots are so deep, I think, tells us something about human nature that we should pay attention to. What do you think it tells us? that we'll never be able to resist trying to imitate life. Yuval Harari has pointed out that history kind of began when humans created gods,

but history will end when humans become gods. He's also pointed out the relationship between totalitarianism and automation and AI. So if there's a way of thinking about going forward, right, with these historical imaginings, these that are as old as civilization, itself, which story do you think or what would you want for our founders and our technologists listening to think about as they bring the next generation of technology out into the world? You know, recently someone asked me if there's a figure from Greek mythology that sort of evokes

the conscientious technology engineer or person who's striving to use AI for the betterment of humanity. And so what it made me think of was a recently discovered papyrus that has a fragment of an unknown myth about Hephaestus. Oh, how interesting. Something new. Well, it was discovered in 1986 and recently deciphered. And it tells about Hephaestus forging an automaton in the form of a lion to defend the island of Lesbos. Another guardian robot. There were a lot of these in myth. The god animated this bronze statue with intelligence and the scrap says he endowed it with powerful substances beneficial to mankind. That's the end of the scrap. We don't know

anymore. But that just seems so heartening because I think in the Asilamar conference of 2017, one of the rules that the AI thinkers came up with is that AI should be beneficial to humankind. Thank you so much for joining us, Adrienne. Thank you.