a16z Podcast - a16z Podcast: Building a Better Board

Episode Date: March 16, 2015

Of the 371 board seats that opened up last year (within Fortune 500 companies that is), 39% ended up going to first-time board members. So how did they pull it off? What are some strategies for landing your first board seat -- especially if you don’t fit the typical 'profile' of the other board members? And why do it? In this segment of the a16z Podcast, three veteran executives and board members share their experiences and offer advice about building better public company boards: Shellye Archambeau, who sits on the Nordstrom and Verizon boards; Gerri Elliott, a board member at Whirlpool, Bed Bath and Beyond, and Charlotte Russe; and Raul Vazquez, a Staples board member.

Thank you so much everybody for coming on behalf of Andreessen Horowitz. We've got a great panel here tonight. I'm Matt Levy. I'm a partner in the executive talent team here. I focus on our board programs working with our companies on the best practices for building boards. Particularly interesting, important for us is this idea of inclusion and access, specifically at the board level for everyone in Silicon Valley. So we've got a fantastic panel here to kind of talk to you about personal stories, how they got involved with boards, how they prepared on a day-to-day basis in their day jobs to get there. and generally the ins and out the intricacies

of what it means to be a board director. Shelley Archimbo is our moderator. We can all say congratulations. She was actually just appointed to the Nordstrom board yesterday. Fine. Now I'm gonna stay again. But without further ado, Shelly, I'll hand it over to you.

Wonderful, thank you. Okay, can everyone hear me okay? Yes, yes. All right, great. Let me start with just introductions, so you know who we are up here. And then we'll kick off the conversation. So I'm Shelly Archenbo.

I'm the CEO of MetricStream. We're a governance, risk, and compliance software provider. In addition to Northstrom, I also serve on the board of directors for Verizon. And we're located right here in Palo Alto. And Raoul, you want to introduce yourself? Sure. Raul Vasquez, I'm the CEO of a company named Oppertune. What we do is we do socially responsible lending for the Hispanic community

so they don't have to borrow from predatory sources. I am on the board of Staples as well. And I'm Jerry Elliott. I serve on the board of Whirlpool, Bed Bath and Beyond, and Charlotte Roos. You wouldn't know it unless you have a 16-year-old girl. And before that, I was Chief Customer Officer with Juniper Networks, and before that, Microsoft and IBM. All right.

As a matter of fact, Jerry and I spent almost 20 years together at IBM. We did. And so it's great to connect back up again. So, boards, one of the things I did is I just looked up a few stats, because one of the focuses of this conversation is just about boards, how do you get on boards, but also talking about kind of a diversity and inclusion discussion that's also going on around boards. So I thought I would share a few statistics coming from the most recent Spencer Stewart study.

So more than half of elected directors, and this one's really focused on the Fortune 500-sized company, more than half of the elected directors are retired. Average age of a board director, anybody guess? 63. We're not 63. Approximately 350 new board seats open up a year. Last year there were 371. 41% of those seats go to either active or retired CEOs, COOs, or presidents.

So people who are actively running companies. 30% of the new directors last year were women, which was up from 24% the year before. So significant strides, which is the good news. But there's still 5% of the Fortune 500 that have no women at all on their boards. 39% of new directors are actually first-time directors. So of that 371, 39% were new first time. And then in 2014, unfortunately, women made strides, minorities didn't. Just 12% of the new directors were minorities,

and by that I mean African American, Hispanic, or Asian, and that's down from 18% the year before. And about 3.3% of board seats are held by minority women of color. And that has been flat for the last several years. So, even though there's a lot of conversation, right, going on, we're making strides in some areas, but not in others. But let's first start talking about, all right, boards. People talk about wanting to be on a board.

Maybe you guys can talk about how you got on your first board. So, Roel, you want to take that first? Sure. My first board, I actually think it's really valuable to have initial experiences that are not at a public company. So I think I've hit some of the criteria that were mentioned. In my background, I had a chance to work at Walmart.com for seven years, three years as the CEO, and then I had a chance to lead a third of the stores for Walmart.

So I was the head of Walmart West. That's where I know you. Finally, it's clicked. He was my customer. We just figured that out. We were saying earlier, we know each other somewhere, and then she said, where? I said, I'm not going to be good at this game. But the first opportunities that I had were really representing Walmart in non-profit boards.

And I think even though that's very, very different than being on the Staples board, what it does is it starts to give you a chance to get a sense of what it's like to be part of a community of a board that gets presented information and is asked to be a thought partner. So that was the first one. And then once I left Walmart, I had a chance to join the board of a small private company in San Francisco. and that was a very, very different experience. So having had both of those experiences and then really interacting with the Walmart board,

I did have a sense of what it was like to be in a variety of different types of boards with different companies, and then certainly my own experiences as a CEO and interacting with my own board. So those were the ones that then led up to being on the Staples board. Great. Thanks.

I'm with Raoul. I started with private boards as well, startup boards. Every one of them I was on got sold. nonprofit boards. I ran public sector for Microsoft for a long time, so my heart was in the public sector. Once I decided, though, that I wanted to get on a public board, I couldn't do it at IBM. Shelly knows this. We weren't allowed to be on a public board with IBM. Ginny's since changed that. Microsoft said, you can do it as long as they're not a customer or a competitor.

I think there was like a company in Africa or something that wasn't at the time that I could have done. And so lesson number one for me was I should have pushed it. I should have pushed it harder because you want to get on a, if your goal is to get on a public board, and I think there's value in doing that, it was a natural progression for me in my career to do that, then I think earlier versus later is important. How I got on it was once I decided that I wanted to, I thought if I just talked to my closest little circle of friends and told them that I wanted to be on a board, magic would happen, it didn't. It was crickets, I heard for six months. And then I realized that if I wanted

to get on a really good Fortune 500 public board, I'd have to put a plan in place like landing any operating role, get myself educated, talk to my network, get the support of my CEO and my board as well, educate myself, go to events, and so that's what I did. And I ended up on Whirlpool and Bed Bath and Beyond within two days of each other. So I can't answer the question of which one was first. They both landed in the same week, quite frankly. One was from a recruiter, and the other one was from my network. Okay. Great. Thank you.

And for me, because I think it's important for people to kind of hear, it was actually similar. My first board was very similar to Jerry's. I decided that I did want to serve on public boards, and I wanted to ultimately serve on large public boards. So it was getting my first public boards. board to me, which was key. And I treated it just like a job. So figuring out, okay, what do boards look for? Where are the needs? What needs can I possibly fit? And then tailoring kind of my overall expertise and focus to that and being very clear about what I was looking for. And then

telling everybody. When I see everybody, I mean everybody. Because, yes, they're executive search firms, but actually they place the minority of board members. Sometimes boards use them just to do the vetting process, but the names they get come from, right, people that the board members know. So you have to tell absolutely everybody, and especially people that are currently serving on boards, because they get calls, right, for what's going on. So my first one happened to come from a recruiter in terms of Spencer Stewart, and that's how I got in terms of to Arbitron, which was my first board prior to these. My second one came through networking. In terms of board, Verizon, was looking for a board member, wanted somebody, Silicon Valley, wanted someone who

had scale experience since the IBM, but also startup and growth, wanted someone who had telecom, which I also did, just a few things. Talk to Mark Andreessen to say, hey, we're looking for such and such, you know, who do you know, what do you think? And mine was one of a few names that Mark gave them. So it's everything. Yes, it's recruiters, but it's also in terms of through the overall network. So great. Gary, you touched a little bit on what you have to do to get prepared. Maybe you guys can share. So, all right, we're sitting in the audience. We're interested in getting on our first board. So what do we do to actually get ourselves skilled up or prepared? Right? What are those first kind of steps are I there? There are some great offerings right here

in the Valley, quite frankly. Stanford has two offerings, the directors college and the director's consortium. One's a little mini MBA. One's more of a two and a half day conference. The big four firms, the Deloits, the E&Ys of the world, have truly wonderful education that you can take online, in particular if you're on audit. I happen to be on audit for Whirlpool. And it's important that you understand what that responsibility really is. So between that, Duke University has a wonderful program. Northwestern University has a program specifically for women directors. So there's a lot that you can find. And it's important to get yourself educated before you actually land on a public board, if that's your goal.

goal or a private board. My private board runs itself like it's a public company with all the governance associated with it. But do it sooner versus later. It makes for a much better interview process if you understand what it means to be on a public board. Right. And that's critical. And all you talked about getting the overall experience of both the nonprofit as well as private before going in terms of, can you talk about the benefit that gave you? Because there is formal education, absolutely. But then boards are also looking when they're talking to prospective candidates, they also learn to know what experience you have.

You know, the hardest step is getting your first one. That's the hardest one. Right. So I would absolutely agree with the comments that have been made so far, and I would just reiterate again, if you get a chance no matter how small the company may be and whether or not it fits where you want to end up eventually, I think like everything else, right,

going through the actual actions themselves or the things that help prepare you best. On my side, I think there were a couple, of things that were really helpful. The first is there's a big difference between being an operator and potentially being a senior executive somewhere where you may be accustomed to having the last word on things, right? You may be accustomed to things going exactly the way that you would like. And it's, I think, being on a board as a team sport, right, and you're part of a community, and trying to figure out how much you want to talk, where do you want to add

value, where are the areas that you're going to feel strongly about, what are the ones that you're just going to let go, how do you prepare, how do you engage with the CEO and the leadership team? All of those things are highly, highly nuanced. And I think even in a nonprofit, right, you start to exercise some of those muscles and you start to watch other people. I've learned a lot watching the people on the boards. And Walmart had kind of a board partnership program where you could also, if you were a senior executive there, get to know the board members. And I would say that's another way to start to learn a bit more about what it's like to be on a board. find people that are on boards, ask them what they do to stay current,

ask them what they find valuable, ask them what it's like to be on a board. All of those things, I think, are very helpful. But that's so important because, as Shelley said, landing the first one is the most important. And when the question is asked of you, what board experience do you have? If you've never been on a public board before, what I did and what you can say is I presented it every single board meeting in my company for the last seven years.

I either attended or presented. And those board members were my references. References for getting on a board versus references for landing your next operating gig, to me are different. And so every one of those board members ended up being a reference for me. And asking the support of the chairman or particularly ask the support of your CEO, if you're not already a CEO, if you report to the CEO, get his or her support immediately because I can't tell you how bad it is to get down the line and almost get to accepting one. and then not be able to do that.

But interacting with your own boards right now is the best experience you could have. And one more. Oh, please. I think also really have a sense of what it is, what kind of experience you want to have. All three of the different experiences that I've been talking about were very, very different.

So depending on what value you think you can contribute and what kind of experience you want to have, right, that's another thing to be very clear about. because, for example, the private company that I was a part of was very early stage. And at one point, I realized it wasn't the right thing for me because it was a bit like having a second operating job. And I didn't need one of those, right? I already had a full-time one. And that wasn't the experience that I was looking for.

I felt like I could add a lot of value, but that wasn't the kind of growth, right, in enhancement that I was looking for. And that's when I decided there was a point where they had a CEO transition, and it made sense at that point for me to be able to walk away. but that's also what gave me a lot of clarity that I was looking more for the public company type experience that I'd seen as a Walmart executive dealing with them and then more of the experience that I had with my board at my firm. You know, 83% of boards actually look for a very defined set of skill set. When they're looking for a director, they aren't out there saying, oh, we just need another director, let's find a, quote, good person. Typically, they actually have a profile of what they're looking for.

There's some skill set, experience, industry, kind of a variety of things. What are some things that people can do to kind of build that board-ready skill set, right? And how do you think about it? How did, maybe even how you positioned yourselves individually as it relates to that might be an interesting topic. The first thing I did was, and it was to figure out what's my value proposition to this particular board. What experiences have I had? What skill sets have I had? We were both in Asia.

We ran businesses in Asia before. We were large company, small company, tech, obviously, specific industries that we supported in tech. Know what your value proposition is and write it down and actually have that five-minute elevator pitch in your head. Because if you can't articulate the value proposition to that board, then the conversation doesn't start. Once you do that, then you can decide for yourself what boards do you want to go on? what would be important to you? What industries do you like? Do you like the industry?

Do you like the business model, whether it's global versus domestic? Do you like the CEO and the team? Do you like the geography that they're in? Because when you have to fly to butt-bukey Fargo and it's 11 degrees, so for a board meeting, trust me. Do you like the, do the dates work for you? All of those questions you have to ask yourself

because you, those board meetings are long and they're arduous if you aren't interested in that company. You've got to be as passionate about that company as that CEO and team are. So choose wisely. Yeah. And if I could just add a point to Jerry's when you talked about the value proposition, it's important to know what that value proposition is absolutely when you're talking to the company. But remember, we talked about it earlier. If you're interested in joining a board, you need to tell everybody.

Here's one of the challenges that happens. If you go around and tell everybody, oh, I'm interested in being in a board. Oh, great. What are your strengths? Oh, I can do everything, right? I can run a company. I've got an international. I've got tech.

And you've got to go through this long list. What do people remember? Nothing. Nothing. And I just said, companies are looking for a specific filter. So you want to make sure that your name comes top of mind when that filter hits. So that value problem that you develop for yourself, make sure when you tell people I'm interested in the board. And, oh, by the way, my specialty is tech.

I like transformation. And I've got really strong international. Right? Boom. Just pick three. But look at what you think boards need in general and then where you can compete, you know, significantly so that people remember it when they get the call to say, oh, yeah, tech, international, oh, I know somebody. Right. So I can't over-emphasize that. Anything you want to add to that? No, I think you said it.

It's a positioning exercise, exactly. Absolutely. Okay, so now we understand what we need to do to kind of get our names out there and in front of the board. I want to pick up on a point that Jerry just raised around pick your board wisely. These are long-term commitments. Most people serve on boards in excess of 10, 15, depending on what age you are in terms of when you join, a long time. And it's not something that you can go in, spend a year and say, ah, I don't really like this, right? I don't want to do this anymore.

Because then what happens is people look at that, is your profile and think, all right, you don't make commitments. That's not the kind of board member I'm looking for. So how do you actually do some diligence on your own to determine whether or not the company that you're looking at is a company you want to join? I mean, I think, well, let me add one thing, because we talked about it earlier, we like conversations. If people have questions, please interrupt, please raise your hand, either now or about something we're already covered. I think for me, it was particularly easy, certainly was staples. When I left Walmart, one of the things that I found really intriguing is just the shift that is taking place in retail overall. And certainly my positioning, if you will, was around a lot of experience in e-commerce and scaling and innovative.

in trying different things. And every retail company I think right now is reinventing itself based on the needs of the consumers and what technology is enabling. So that part was pretty easy. I did interview for a different company before joining Staples. And that's where, I think to your point,

you try to do as much research as you can. If you're contacted by a recruiter as I was, ask them for a lot of information because I agree with your comment. You have to be excited about the company. You have to want to understand the nuances of strategy because one of your big roles is oversight, right? Financial oversight, strategic oversight, being a thought partner challenging at times, right? The management team's view on things and then bringing a different perspective than what the people internally have.

And to be able to do that, you have to understand the firm, you have to understand the industry, you have to understand their competitive positioning, and really enjoy it and want to do that quite a bit of time. At the Stanford Director College, I think one of the things that they share, was the really good boards, board member spends something like 80 days a year, engage with the board, right? If you think about it being that much time, you really have to like the materials you're going to get and you're really going to want to have to enjoy the conversations you're going to have. That's a really good board. And the studies show that the longer the boards meet or the more the board meets, it actually

translates better to the bottom line. It's between 20 and 40 days a year. with an average of 28. So when you think about it, 28 days out of the year for one particular board, you better love it. My Nordstrom meeting that just happened, my deck, pre-read, 270 pages. I mean, I'm just giving you an idea.

Yes, your first board is absolutely important. That doesn't mean your first board has to be the Fortune 500 board. Your first board can be the private company, right? It can be a smaller public company, et cetera, but you still need to pick it wisely. So you don't have to, the first offer you get, don't say yes, because I got to get my first one. Make sure you actually do the work.

I mean, for instance, I actually turned down a board that was, it happened to be a Fortune 500 board, went through, met the whole bit. Two things came up. One, I could tell by how they answered the questions, that the dynamics of the directors wasn't great. They were evolving, was the word they kept using, evolving their board. Like, okay, great. That means people don't get along. I got it, right? Okay, that was one.

like it's a quaint startup. Exactly. The other question I ask is, well, how many special meetings? You know, they have standard meetings, which are all published, right? Seven, eight meetings a year or whatever. How many special meetings? And this particular board had 20. All right?

Something's going on here. And I don't have, right, that kind of time. So I passed on this particular board. But my point is, just because we say the first one is important does not mean take the first one that comes. May I try to do diligence, though. I mean, it is a dichotomy in that you, it's the chicken and the egg. Shelly was saying only 30% of board seats get sourced by a recruiter. The other 70% is through the network.

If you're not in the network, it's the chicken and the egg, right? So how do you get in the network? You do all the things we were just talking about. If you have an opportunity for a board, you've got to do the due diligence. Just as they're going to do the due diligence on you, you have to do the due diligence. The five questions there just said, do you like the company? Do you like the CEO? Do you like the team?

Does the comp work for you? this is your time. It's very valuable. Does the comp and the fees work for you? Do the dates work? Do the GEOs work? I have 14 questions I asked every one of my boards during the interview process. And I'm happy to share those 14. The number one question was, what's your board succession plan? I want to know what this board's going to look like in five years. And if they stumbled over the answer to the question, I knew they didn't have a board succession plan. And they weren't thoughtful about the skill sets that you were talking about that this board needed. That was the number one question for me. Take the meeting, though. I don't turn down the meeting. One of my boards, I wasn't interested to take the meeting. I took it anyway and ended up on the board, and it's been great.

So take the meeting. You'll know if it's the right thing. You'll know if the culture's right. You'll know if the industry's right. You'll know if it's right. Yeah, Roel, you had something you wanted to add. One quick additional thought. I think some other comes back to the positioning exercise, right?

If you think you have a very strong brand and you have a lot to add, right, then you can turn down the first couple of ones that show up. I know we're going to touch on diversity, or later in you covered some of the stats, right? But diversity means a whole bunch of things, right? And for someone like me that had digital experiences, I'm sure many of you do, right? More and more boards are looking for that. So that will put many people in this room into position to saying, this is not the exact right one for me.

And even though it would be great to have that first chance, I'm going to let this one go because I know things are moving in my direction. So I think that's just the other consideration. So, and you started to raise that role just with regards to the whole boards are now looking also for more diversity, right, and what they're looking. So how does that also play a role? As I look at, we have actually a very diverse group here in the audience. But what advice in terms of to folks as boards are indeed looking? Most boards, by the way, that's that too.

Let me tell you. Most boards. This year, 64% of boards surveyed are focused on recruiting minorities. 71% are focused on recruiting women. And that's up from both those numbers were like in the low 50s last year. So significant, right, increase. Now that doesn't match the placement percentages like the agents.

No. So there's an issue here. So there's an issue here. Why do we think there's a gap? You guys are serving on some of these boards. They say they want to do it, but it's not happening. There is. So you mentioned some of the stats in the beginning.

There's only 18% of the Fortune 500 directors are women. under 20%. Some folks say 17, some say 18. We haven't made much progress, quite frankly, from a gender diversity of on boards. Current course and speed, to get to 30%, it will take 33 years. Current course and speed.

Unless we do something like every other one, there's only about 300 to 350 board openings that come up a year. And we just talked about 30% are the through recruiters, the other 70% are the network. And since 2000, nine, the number of board seats in the Fortune 500 has reduced by 12%. Boards are getting smaller.

Used to be an average of 10.8. It's now closer to nine. So with all of that, it's tougher, right? Boards, we don't need another study that says that diverse boards are better for the bottom line. We have enough studies, whether it's Credit Suisse or Catalyst or Chubb, have all done studies that say the more diverse the board, the better the R-O-I, ROS. and return on invested capital.

So we need more diverse boards from a race perspective, from a gender perspective. How do you go about getting on that is the conversation that we're having in terms of, of how do we promote more women, more diversity to the boards themselves? One of the challenges is being on a public company board is a lot more complex, certainly than what I've heard it used to be, and you talked about audit earlier, but even the Com Committee is really complex. And as there's more activist investors, as the media takes more of a look at what's happening with company performance and the role that boards are playing,

there is a reason why it should be hard to be on the first board. And one of the things we were talking about earlier is one of the great experiences would be if you have a chance to be on a private company that is going public, and you get to be on that journey with them. And in particular, if you have a couple of board members that really care about governance. In my company, I'm really fortunate in that we've got some board members that have been on public companies, right?

They have a lot of experience. So as you mentioned earlier, we've operated like a public company from a board perspective at Opertune. And that's a great way to start to learn the elements of governance and to start to think about the role that an audit committee needs to play and all the elements of that, the role that a comp committee needs to play,

you're nominating committee, all of those different pieces. But it does create a catch-22, certainly, when you hear those statistics, because it's really hard to get the first one. And once you have the first one, then it will fill up, I think, a bit faster. But that's one of the challenges.

But there's a lot that's going to happen in the next few years. So you started to say there's about almost half of the board members for Fortune 500 have a tenure of 10 years or more on the boards. That's number one. Number two, almost a quarter of them are approaching age 72, which normally is when you turn out. And so E&Y did a study and they said in the next five years they thought 27% of the Fortune 500 and 1,000 board members would turn over.

And turnover is good, right? It will be a time to start refreshing some of these boards. 70% of the board placements come as a result of people that you know in the network. And unfortunately, there aren't enough people. that are known and part of the networks of the people that reflect, right? 74% are white males today. So we have to figure out how we help get known in those networks. So you can focus on the search firms, which is good, definitely do that.

Make sure the people who had the board practices at Russell Reynolds, Spencer Stewart, you want to make sure they all know you. That's fine, but that's only addressing the 30% right down here. Other than that, and that's part of the network, which is why we said, tell everybody, make develop relations with people who currently serve on boards going to the director's college one of the advantages of that is most of people they're actually already on a board so it's that networking piece right is really really critical

I would agree on figuring out I'm sorry yeah what's your value proposition right are you a CEO do you have an expertise in a particular field are you know known in your industry do you report to the CEO All of those things are check marks that folks will look for. And once you know that, then tell your network, as I really said. I agree just to reinforce it, to extend the branding and positioning analogy we've been using, it's awareness. And you're absolutely right.

When we have a vacancy coming up in the board, the first conversation that takes place before even talking about a search firm is who do we know that we think would be a good candidate, given our needs. And if there is already a good slate of people, right, you never even get to the, to the search firm. Right. Now, let me just add something here because it's not said it's kind of assumed. When boards are bringing you on board, yes, they have the requirements.

As a matter of fact, let me share, top five areas of expertise sought by boards today in their searches, financial expertise, international expertise, specific industry of whatever they happen to be focused on, risk and risk management and information technology. Those are the top five areas. Great. Let's say you have those. They're also looking to put people on the board that when they make people, the announcement, the shareholders say, oh yeah, because you know, you get elected by the board,

but you get ratified by the shareholders. So you have to have some kind of a brand. It's not going to work, even if you have all of this, but you're not a known entity within some area of specialty that's not going to work for them. So beyond just getting known and telling everybody, you actually have to work to develop your own personal brand within your area of expertise, so people like, oh, yeah, you know, checkmark, that makes sense. Okay, I'm actually going to go to the woman in the plaid. I guess the big question I have is, you know, why did you decide you wanted to be on a board in the first place? There were four things for me. One was the value that I thought I could gain from the experience itself. Two, was the impact I thought I

could have on the company itself. Three was the recognition, personal recognition. To me, it was the natural evolution and or was the quality of the experience, quite frankly. Again, choose wisely. If you choose wisely, it's a really interesting position to be in. It's been a wonderful learning experience. I've really enjoyed it. Even recently, there have been a lot of things to learn in terms of the things that Staples is trying to get done. So yes, I've been absolutely pleased with the outcomes. I agree with the points Jerry made. The other one that I would add is I wanted to become a better CEO. and I really felt being on the other side of the table would help me to do that.

And have I gotten all those things? I have. This has been, it's been a phenomenal experience. It is a lot of work. 4 a.m. All of my committee calls are at 4 a.m. in the morning because Verizon is an East Coast company, and they're at 7 a.m. East Coast time. And that's the way it's always been.

And I knew that's stepping in. So it wasn't like they were going to change it because they weren't. I still don't understand that. But can I make one point to your point, Shelly. I wish I had done it earlier because I would have been a better. operating executive. On the other side as an operating executive, I thought of my board as a collective, the board. And we got to survive the board meetings. And I never thought of them. Now that I'm on the other side, I never thought of them as the collection of individuals that have all

these unique skills that I could have used to my advantage and never did. And even that framing is interesting because I think a lot of companies create that framing between the management team and the board. And even internally in our company, we talk about them as thought partners. We talk about wanting to have conversations. The same way we're having a conversation right now, because to your point, right, if you've got a great board, you've got all of these individuals that hopefully complement the team and have different perspectives, and it shouldn't feel antagonistic at all.

Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, thank you, guys.