a16z Podcast - a16z Podcast: London Calling for Tech Done in a Different Way

Episode Date: November 20, 2015

If the U.K. is to continue its economic march onward and upward, technology needs to play an increasing role, say Martha Lane Fox (that's Baroness of Soho Lane-Fox in more public settings) and Russell Davies in this segment of the pod ... another one of our on-the-road a16z podcasts from London. But it can't just be the same apps and software solutions that are coming out of Silicon Valley, say these two European tech veterans (Lane Fox is a web entrepreneur and on the boards of multiple tech companies and open data initiatives, while Davies is a writer and digital strategist). The U.K. needs to do things differently to create and maintain an edge against all the tech powers around the globe. Lane Fox and Davies describe what a bright tech future could look like -- a lot more women in the industry, for starters -- and how it might differ from, and compete with, the best around the world.

Welcome to the A16Z podcast. I'm Michael Copeland here on the road in London. And that woo-hoo you heard is from one of our special guests, Martha Lane Fox, who in the parlance is a crossbench peer, the founder of Last Minute.com. You seem to be doing everything. Chair of the Digital Skills Charity Go On UK, and you just launched Dot Everyone. Yes. Martha, welcome. Thank you. Also we have Russell Davies, who is head of digital strategy for the co-op. which is among the world's largest member-owned co-ops. You were the former head of strategy for the UK's government digital service.

You are a fan of the traditional English fry-up. I am. I'm the traditional English cafe, more importantly. And actually, fan seems like I'm doing you disservice. You're more like the Herodotus of the traditional English cafe, I think. If I knew who Herodotus was, I'd be pleased with that. Martha is a classical scholar. Oh, my God.

Who's Herodotus? Enroditus is one of the greatest historians of all time, well, the first historian of all time. Okay, there you go. I am this then. And I'm sure he would have like bacon, documents, eggs, bacon, chips and beans, too, I suppose. But welcome to the podcast, and thanks for joining us.

So, Martha, let's start, and I don't want to start with this being a real bummer, but you said recently that at least part of the tech industry you are finding very upsetting and depressing. So I want to know what you mean by that. Well, not all of it. It would be churlish for me to say I found the tech sector depressing and upsetting on every level because I have loved working in it and devote my life to it.

But the aspect that I feel most profoundly surprised by and baffled. And yes, frankly, upset and depressed is the gender balance of the technology sector. As you will know well, it's pretty bad, right? There's a whole new establishment that's been created, and I would argue it's a new establishment that has replicated the old establishment to a degree that those of us that were quite early into the dot-com boom and then bust here in the UK

are properly surprised by because it felt as though things might be different. Right, I mean, back when last minute.com, when you were starting that, it sounded to me like things, and even before that, for that matter, I mean, the early days of computing, there were many women involved, right?

Absolutely, there's an awesome woman here. You may know her called Dame Stephanie Shirley. Stevie Shirley, and she ran a programming company in the 70s, all women, all working from home, and all working on huge government contracts, Polaris submarine, Black Box for Concord. So something happened in the 80s and the 90s that sort of absented women from the development of the technology, and I think that's incredibly important and upsetting. Well, and certainly in Silicon Valley, it's not a different picture there at all, and people are trying to examine exactly how and why we've gotten to where we have.

But more importantly, what can we do to move things forward and improve the situation as it stands? Well, I'm a optimistic person, and the great news is that here in the UK, there is a lot happening. It just, I think, could do with some fuel, a bit more coordination and probably a bit more funding. As you said, I'm launching dot everyone. It's a public value organization, creating organization, and we are going to make the UK one of the best places to work as a woman in technology in the world. world as one of our first landmark projects and watch this space for how we plan to start. I was going to say it because we can all learn from you guys if you actually pull it off. And so, I mean, are there specifics that we can talk about?

Well, there's two areas we're going to initially focus on and amongst some of the other things we're going to do at Doe Everyone. And the first thing is to help encourage women to start their own tech-based organization, either for profit or not for profit. And we're going to do that by having some big matchmaking events where we get people who are already running things that might need more money into them or people that are already running things that might need new skills or people that are running things that are looking for women to come and work in them. So we're going to try and put together people in an interesting and a different kind of way. So that's the first thing we're going to do. And the second thing we're going to do is we're going to work with some corporates to think about how we could encourage the currently 800,000 unemployed women in this country to become part of the 600,000. jobs that we need to fill in the tech sector. So we're working with a couple of corporates who

are interested in how we could give more specific mentoring, training, and help to some of those 800,000 to fill those tech jobs. So join up the pieces in a new and interesting way. Right. Russell, you have been involved both in terms of government and also, you know, at the co-op and kind of bringing technology to a larger groups of people. I mean, in terms of what Martha was just describing, are there programs and or approaches that you have seen that are bringing tech and the sort of goodness to tech to a wider population of folks? Yes. I mean, I don't think it's specifically necessarily about what Martha's

talking about and women in tech. But there is, I think, one of the contributions that you get from outside Silicon Valley, basically, is we don't have the same necessarily the same blind spots. That's how we'll compete with Silicon Valley. And one of them is about knowing that there's a role for technology in the public sector, and one of them is also knowing that a more diverse vision of technology will out-compete a white, male, rich version of technology.

Let's just back up for a second here, because I think it's always interesting when you get outside of our kind of tunnel vision of Silicon Valley to other places, whether it's New York or Boston or anywhere in the United States, but especially outside the U.S. completely. You mentioned the blind spots that we have in Silicon Valley. From the outside, what would you describe those as? Obsession with VC as a way of funding things. Obsession with unicorns? I'm going to punch the next person who says unicorns.

I am with you there, yeah. And a kind of super serving of a San Francisco user, basically. You know, most markets, most, you know, every app you see you go, that will be really useful in San Francisco. Right. And then, you know, using. market power and all kinds of things to try and force those into other places

and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're not and sometimes they kind of fit and sometimes they don't so there's that kind of thing and plus a kind of a and this is not new to the current generation of technologists but an assumption that regulation

government, wider society can just be ignored basically. I worked with Microsoft for a few years before they got sued by the DOJ Right. And they sued for antitrust, if we all recall. Yes.

Yes. And they just kind of had assumed up to that point that they could just ignore that. And, I mean, arguably, I think it derailed them for years, possibly derailed them until now to some extent. And, you know, that was just stupid. They could have thought about that. Right. You know, that was just a blind spot on their behalf. The thing that I find kind of interesting is the total kind of techno-utapen vision

that the tech platforms will sort out all the biggest challenges that we face. And I'm not convinced by that. You know, arguably, autonomous cars, they are going to organize some bit of a problem that we have with road deaths or organizing of smart cities, but it would be to be debated whether or not that's one of the top five or six issues that we face as humankind. And I like thinking about how you could give the tools to more people to be able to sort out problems. And I actually also think government is a force for good generally.

I don't think we should be trying to have a competition between whether the tech companies or government can sort things out. We should be in boldening countries to have more clear and exciting visions around what a combination of those things can do together. And I think one of the aspects that we may be able to create real competitive advantage, as in wider competitive advantage, not just commercial competitive advantage for the UK, is by joining all the pieces up. You know, you've had South Korea doing a huge and incredible job on infrastructure. You've had Estonia do a huge and incredible job on government services online. You've had Singapore do an amazing job in smart cities. You've had Canada actually do some

interesting stuff and bits and pieces. But I'm not sure there's a country that's actually had a proper digital vision. And I'm excited about the possibility for the UK to do that because we're small. We need to skill up our population really pretty fast. We're in an interesting geographical location. And I think that, you know, to build on what Russell said, we have an opportunity here to be more wide ranging in how we see all this stuff. Well, Russell, this is something that you mentioned earlier. But to put all those pieces together, in some sense, the technology is the easy part. And so what is the hard part? And how do you then, you know, Martha, I want you to describe this too, how do you put that together? I mean, and what are really

the things that need to happen culturally and behaviorally to make it work? Well, I think it's a dual thing, right? So I think you have to have some symbolic top-down leadership and that can come from a variety of stuces. I think it can come from political figures, clearly. It can come from the corporate sector as well. But I also think some things need to happen that are robust and helpful on the ground as well. And that's kind of what I want everyone to try and do and help with.

So we're doing two levels of things, just to give an example. We are creating what I'm calling a virtual campus, which we're going to be a showcase of the best stuff that's happening that's not just commercial technology. We're going to wrap together all the exciting new institutes that are being created. We've got the Turing Institute, building computer science capability. We've got the Open Data Institute, building open data capacity. We've got the Go on UK organisation.

I started about digital skills. But we don't often talk about them as a story for the UK. So all the chairs and CEOs are going to come together to create a bit more of a story for the UK, which I think will help in that kind of ambition and boldness and vision. And then I think there are a whole plethora of things that are happening on the ground. That could be small projects. I'm about to go to Croydon after this, which is a borough of London, where we're launching a project to try and help the whole of Croydon use technology in a really deep way.

And we've got really interesting combinations of people coming together from cafes to football stadia to the local council. There's lots happening. Again, I just think it needs sometimes to be brought together in a more coherent vision and mission. And so I think there are now more organisations trying to do that than ever before. And I'm confident we can give them fuel and a voice. And perhaps the co-op can be one of those voices. Yeah, well, I hope so. And I think there's also a, I mean, if,

if digital is going to get widely adopted and transform the economy in the UK and that kind of thing, large organisations are going to have to get it, right? You know, they're not all going to be replaced by an app. And that means they have to learn how to do it themselves, I think, for the most part. There was an assumption from large organisations, firstly, that they could, well, A, ignore it, and then, B, buy it off someone else, and then found a kind of lab or maybe partner with a... classic did you know do that kind of thing and now they're getting to the point where you go actually what we have to do is employ hundreds of people who know how the internet works who know how to

build things we need developers we know you know we need to bring those into our organization and recognize that that will fundamentally change the way we work i mean what's interesting is that most of the time these kind of innovation centers however you want to describe them they don't work right But what you mentioned, Martha, is this sort of bottoms up and top-down approach. And I do think that we are in a different phase now where everyone's lives, you know, personally have been transformed by technology. Not everyone's. Not everyone.

That's true. There are still 10 million adults in the UK, a relatively small country, who cannot do four things online that we know are the kind of most basic benefits to being on the Internet. And that's nearly 20% of the adult population. But do they all have smartphones in their pockets, too? No, no. They're not using the Internet. They're just either not able to because they're not connected.

They can't afford to. There's no way they could afford a smartphone. And ironically, and this is why what Grussell did in GDS, Government Digital Service, was so important because they're also the heaviest users of government services. So you can cord them that double trap where government isn't able to make the next leap because we've got this pocket of people,

and they're not really even a pocket. It's like a huge big, bloody rip, who still are completely dislocated. So, sorry, something I really feel like that's one of the key parts of if we're going to make a proper leap, jump forward. We've got to think about a whole network of inclusion, including everybody. And just as you, you know, you can take inspiration from other bits of the world. If we can work out how to serve those people well, digitally, that will transform how we serve everyone.

Yes. Yeah. Because it's relatively easy to build a food delivery app for someone who lives very close to you and has got lots of money. You know, it's that kind of, it, that's part, I think, of what will take the next leap is how to serve. of people who aren't attuned necessarily to the digital kind of revolution. Well, so this gets me to one of the other topics I wanted to cover. You know, when I think of England and the UK, I think of like, you know, this great history of manufacturing,

which like the United States, I assume, I think, has gone elsewhere. And so outside of London, there must be, there are large communities of people, and maybe Martha, this is part of what you're describing, who it's hard to get work, the work that's available is maybe not kind of the sort that can support a family on a kind of long-term basis, but is technology being put to work in different ways and digital tools in those communities that we can look to to sort of use as an example that maybe we can follow?

There are lots of examples of small, probably quite scalable if they had a bit more fuel and funding, whether they're app-based initiatives or whether they're, you know, more, the tools that are helping the frontline services be delivered better, so a bit more kind of hidden B2B kind of services. For an example, I saw a really smart little app the other day that helps homeless people. Strangely, actually, quite a lot of homeless people are using text message and smartphones. A constituent group to exactly to Russell's point, if you can design for them,

then their experience of sleeping rough can be profoundly better because they can find somewhere where somebody might say, this is a heated room that you can sleep in tonight, as opposed to just being freezing on the street. So there are lots of small examples and there are some bigger, more community-wide examples. So, you know, I think everything's happening, actually. I think that's the exciting thing about this country is a lot's happening.

There has been a huge, certainly in the last 20, let alone 15 years that I've been working in this sector, the shift from you work in what to everybody wanting to be part of this is phenomenal. So that we have that to our advantage. We've just got to keep betting on the right bits of it.

And I think one of the things that's starting to happen now is, well, is something like, I mean, we have still got a manufacturing industry and it's bigger than everyone always thinks. But what it hasn't done particularly well is embrace how digital technologies can make them better manufacturers, make them better at marketing their wares, all that kind of thing. But also how much it can transform their business so they can continue to make their widget, but they can make it better and quicker and all that kind of stuff. Partly because I think one of the things the social media revolution did is fool large

organisations into thinking that they understood digital. And MPs. Yeah. And because they spent five years working out how to use Twitter and the thought they'd done it. They're kind of like, okay, we've done digital now. What they hadn't reckoned with is how it's going to transform everything else they do. And we're in that stage in the UK. You know, we're pretty swift in in sort of media revolution and in those things digitising. Buy a lot of stuff online. Yeah, we, you know,

all the kind of, almost the low-hanging fruit of what digital will do to the economy has happened. And we're now into the next stage of how will it affect manufacturing, how will it affect, you know, the next layer of things? And one of the things I think is an opportunity for things like co-ops is car sharing makes massive amount of sense in a small rural community where they have terrible public, transport. Right. But Uber aren't going there tomorrow, you know. So, but actually, if you could

build a, you know, cooperative platform for car sharing in small rural communities, that's kind of an interesting thing to do. Yeah. Or, or food delivery or food preparation or, I mean, I'm sure you do all these things at the co-op. But yeah, I think that this large scale or at least larger scale buying power and just like, let's switch or flip a switch. and decide to do it is a really interesting proposition. Yeah. You mentioned that applications tend to sort of seem and feel like they've been developed by people in San Francisco for San Franciscans. What's an example of that?

And then what's a counter example maybe of how you're seeing technology develop differently here and perhaps for the use cases that are more specific to being in England or in Europe? Well, one of the things, I mean, it's still very early days. I think a lot of the most interesting thinking and not yet turned into commercial propositions around Internet of Things stuff is happening in the UK and in Europe or happening actually by Brits in San Francisco.

Right. But I think it's partly because we had a kind of weird and different dot-com boom here that people got spat out and started thinking about the next thing maybe a couple of years before they did in the US. Also, I think it's down to things like, weirdly, very specific things like the interaction design course at the RCA,

where kind of every designer you've heard of went to. And they had tutors who started them thinking about interaction via something other than a, you know, kind of flat square. So how is that starting to manifest itself either, you know, in, I guess, models and or actual products, but what are you starting to see? At the moment, it's still at the thinking and prototypes kind of stuff, I think, but it's and it's within large organizations as well. You know, your apples and you Googles, there's designers there who are kind of going,

again, thinking about particularly with Internet of Things devices, how does a family control a device rather than a single individual, for instance? you know the the the problem with so much of that stuff designed for the home is it assumes a kind of model of a single owner right and a master you know the master head of household owner or mistress yeah but it's see what we're up against but it broadly assumes a master I know so friend of mine Tom Coates always talks about how he's he has got a house you know that's kind of a prototype for internet of things devices and at least three of his friends who no longer you know who don't live there can control his lights and it's kind of how do you you know because they visited once right and he gave you know so from across the world they can turn his lights on and off right tom coats for those if you don't know he was at yahoo for a long time and sort of ran their skunk works lab and he's got a blog called plastic bag plastic bags sorry my apology i'm not sure he's updated that for about eight years don't go look at that block but anyway very interesting fellow but he's doing it him and another

friend of ours who's also from london are doing a really really interesting internet of things startup called thinkton which is the thing they're thinking about is not the devices but how do you control multiple connected devices in your home when you need multiple layers of permission and ownership and those are going to be the big problems not how you know not how does one person turn the temperature up or not but how does people in a house consensually agree what the right temperature yeah and do that in a way that you don't have to be a network administrator to actually just turn on the lights. There was an amazing talk I saw recently about the comeback of MIT

where you're going to be followed around by your own temperature. I would add to also open data. The UK arguably has been a world leader in open data. The government did a big push about five years ago and a lot of stuff got freed up. That push needs to continue. It's sort of patchy because now some of the things are getting a bit buried and departments are being a bit more difficult about it. But the Open Data Institute, founded by Tim Bernersley and Nigel Shabbolt, has really pushed this agenda hard.

I'm biased. I should say I'm on the board, so I feel like I should register that interest in case people think I'm being overly unobjective. But I think they are agreed that it is agreed that that's been a hugely important device for creating startups and for creating a new wave of public-facing organizations. In the sense that we can all access this massive amount of data. and then therefore build things around it? Yeah, they've created a, you know, they've got a space in East London and they've got a bunch of companies there

or, you know, a combination of not-profits and companies, and they use that, you know, classic, classic accelerator models, they've got a group of people, they get lots of support and help. They might come in with a small idea, might come on with a big idea. There's a great one there called open corporates. They take all of the open data that corporate sector

puts out there about itself and puts it together to show companies that are either being really untransparent about things or ones that are being really great about. things. There's another great company called Mastodon C. They've done a whole lot of stuff with big data in health. So I would say open data is another area where I think the UK and all Europe could be continue to be a world leader. Speaking of health, you know, is that open data? The United States is, I think, probably far behind in terms of that in the healthcare industry

for reasons of it being privatized mostly. But are there... We might argue the same here for reasons of it being public. Oh, okay. I was wondering if there's... It's really interesting. I think the rhetoric here, and I've been doing a little bit of work in health through dot everyone recently. And the things that I've heard from lots of different people I've engaged with this. Well, but you'll never get anything done because we haven't completely screwed up bureaucratic health service. Not that they want it to be privatized, not at all, but just that their ways into it and the roots are hard. So it's interesting that you say the same letter it comes from the other angle of this.

Right, because there are silos of information. And in health especially, if you can kind of look across massive amounts of data, outcomes for health, forget, you know, payment, et cetera, which is another area, but just making people healthier. But again, that that should be a thing, hopefully, with the, you know, with the NHS, with a massive healthcare system where you ought to be able to create a way where you can aggregate data well and anonymously in order that people can do useful research on it. Part of the reason that hasn't happened is simply that the people at the top of all these organisations don't know how to do it. Right. They buy and sometimes repeat the rhetoric of big data, et cetera, but they don't have actual data scientists inside their organization

who know how to take aggregate data and make it usable without giving everyone secrets away. And that partly will just be a generational shift, but if we accelerate that, you know, we'll get a lead. And UK medicine and science and research. will benefit from that. But I think we have a very, very, very serious skills challenge. You know, that's why I get energized by the fact we're a small island.

I looked up the population of Greater Tokyo recently. It's 55 million people. And we're just over 60 million or whatever we are. You know, like basically we're a huge Asian city, and yet we've got a bit of a bigger landmass. We must be able to make the ambition that will be the most highly skilled. Otherwise, I fear for our economy in the future, not like five years, but 25 years.

We've got profound gaps in data scientists, There's profound gaps in all levels of the skills chain. So that's why I really think it's important. We keep banging on about this stuff. And we export a lot of our best people to the US. Yes. Well, they're bought up by the big platforms, obviously. Yeah, they come back.

They come back. So, Martha, you're sort of calling for a new army of warriors. And those warriors that you're asking for, you want to be women, or at least a majority. A majority of them. I just think that's a huge enormous opportunity. I think that if we could be. a bit more imaginative, as I said, if we could think about how can we get even a portion of those 800,000 women who are currently unemployed into some of those tech jobs that are

currently unfilled. We know that it takes you anywhere between six weeks and 18 months to get to be a relatively good either software engineer or architect or SISOPS, whatever. It's not out of the wit of a woman to imagine that out of that 800,000 could be more women into that army. And the reason I just used a bit of a device was because, as I'm sure you know, in 3000 BC, they've discovered lots of nomadic tribes across the plains of between Mongolia and through to the Caucasus and all around the top of Northern Europe and they thought for ages that all these people of the bones

that they dug up were men but then they realised through new bone density technology that they were women. So the women had been the ones firing weapons and with the tools and if you were to think what the tools of the future are they would be digital. So come on. They assumed they were men. That was the mistake they made because they were warriors.

Because they were, well they, exactly, they were buried with tools and weapons and they thought they must be. You actually mocked up a photograph of a woman that will be dug up. I have to be honest. My very nice cousin did that for me. I've not managed to mock up a picture because despite being a bit digital, I'm not very good at it. Just to describe it, it was a skeleton.

It was the two graves. So we have a grave from 3,000 BC, which was the grave they found that they thought were men that actually were women buried with tools and with small bows and arrows for their smaller frames. And I mocked up, let's say, what would a grave look like from 200, was it, 2,200, and it was B.S. More than, I had a USB port.

So that would be the digital USB sticks. So that would be the digital grave of the future. Although, I mean, I think that's good, but I think everything is going to be in the cloud. I know. I don't know how you portray that in a grave. I'll come for you next time when you'd slide inspiration. That's the biggest challenge for the technology industry of the next five years is how do you visualize the cloud? It makes your PowerPoint really bad.

You mentioned Unicorns, but what are some of your bugger? boo's here, you know, what can you not stand people saying or hearing about, you know, unicorn is one, maybe big data is another one, these things that people say, and somehow it loses their meaning, just so we can be careful, or maybe there's different ones here. Well, you know, I think it's more to me about, you know, we started off talking about what can, how can we manage the blind spots to use Russell's phrase. And I think I feel just sort of upset when I think that we're replicating too much of other people's technology systems. I get a bit of a bugbear about the word ecosystem. I'm not really sure what that means. I think

we've ripped that from the West Coast, probably actually just from San Francisco, and that might be the only possible ecosystem in the world. Who knows? I think we should be creating some new ideas and new veins, so I don't like unicorns. I found an absolutely brilliant poem by the British writer Angela Carter the other day called Unicorn. She wrote it in 1965. It's really seedy and absolutely brilliant. So any time I hear the word unicorn, I'm not going to give this poem to the tech gazillionaire sitting in front of me and just say, stop it. I, you know, for me, it's the fact that we are still monumentally bedazzled by valuation

and I just find that upsetting because valuation does not equal impact it doesn't even equal, it might equal maybe some commercial impact although that's arguable but it certainly doesn't necessarily not necessarily equal social impact sometimes it might so I just think come on, come on we've got to find some different measures

because that's just really boring and again it's sort of diversity you know all the way up and down the stage it's kind of it's fractal it's it's it's not just the diversity of people you employ but the diversity of models yes um and at the moment there's a kind of i mean maybe you don't get that impression but i think martha and i are both really excited by technology and i definitely believe that software will eat the world it's just it won't necessarily crap out kind of rabidly free market um kind of uh silicon valley cronyism you know there will be other models that will be other models that

will emerge from networks and software and those kinds of things. And as Martha says, I think in the UK we have been too bedazzled by the model of startup VC valuation, that kind of thing. There are other ways of transforming the world with technology. And some of them, in order for the UK and for Europe and for everywhere that's not the US to be good at them, they have to investigate some of those other models. We can't just replicate the effect of, you know, decades of defence funding and Stanford. Right, right.

And we can't just, we must provide a, as bedazzling a future that means that when Google comes and says, I'm going to give you X billion for your very small startup based in East London, people say, actually, you know what, I'm going to try this one over here. And that, you know, and that's a really hard thing to do and said she, who got off of one of those checkbooks and took it. So I fully reckon, well, it wasn't from the, well, it was from the US, sort of. Right. But I, you know, I think that this is complicated stuff,

but we haven't really, to Russell's point, presented an alternative worldview with compulsion. Right. An alternative worldview and also, I guess, the model for success, right? Yeah. I mean, there's certainly success stories, you know, throughout the UK and Europe, but sometimes those get overshadowed.

I think, like you say, buy the Googles and Facebooks and, you name it. And it's hard to get a, you know, in classic VC terms, it's hard to get a big exit in the UK or in Europe, you know. And the fact that there have been as many, as they have with the reduced amount of money that goes into it is testament to there are people here and know what they're doing.

But also, there should be other ways to succeed, both financially and in social impact and that kind of thing. Just positing other possibilities is a start, you know. Let me do a very quick. I'm going to run through a couple of themes and we've covered some of them actually

and just get your quick responses. The gig economy. You know, this is driving cars, delivering food. other things. How is the gig economy manifesting itself here in the UK if it is? It is, I would say, but it is doing in very, very small pockets. So central London, big tick. And I live in central London and I'm lucky I'm rich. So big tick for me. But to Russell's point, if you're living anywhere that doesn't have broadband, which is quite a lot of this country,

I think thumbs down. But again, the principles and some of the models in there absolutely could transform all sorts of communities and provide work in lots of interesting ways. It's just Right now, they're not geared for that kind of world. Right. They need to be adjusted for places other than central London and San Francisco. Yeah, and I've been shouting at the radio a lot recently because our Chancellor George has announced this Infrastructure Commission. Good idea.

Long-term thinking outside governments or an independent group of people that will think, what do we need in 20, 30 years? Is there a mention of digital? There is not. Yeah. I rest my case. Drones. Do you guys, did you arrive here by drone?

I drone on a lot. That's as far as close as I come to drone. It's a gadget. I mean, they're obviously amazing. The projects that you see with drones are dropping food into places that we never normally have it in the middle of South Sudan or wherever. You know, the extraordinary things that they can do, they don't particularly float my boat.

It's a weird mixed metaphor. Yeah, it is. They would carry your boat, yes. I have to say, it's just a language problem. The fact that the killer robots from space have the same word as the cute gadgets that you can play with and the potential future delivery things is just a problem. If someone can sort out the language so that we're not all talking about the same thing.

That is a good point. We're sending a drone to your home, and you're like, wait, is it... Is it dinner or is it, yeah, the end? Well, the truth is, it's both right, because GCHQ and Amazon are all working together in that little drone. So... Yeah, yeah. MOOCs, online education. Well, I'm the Chancellor of the Open University,

which is, as you may know, one of the largest universities in the world, and was started on the premise that anyone can learn from any... background anywhere, always with a tutorial and a person at the other end of an email, a phone call, an electronic, something now. So they're really interesting. And what the Open University would say is we want to be playing around in MOOCs. We started something called Future Learn, but the key thing here is converting people to make sure that they take that next step in education. I mean, some people might not want to, and they're an amazing resource. But as you know, I think that it's working out what that kind of chain of activity is so that the individual

or gets the learning experience that they really want. The difficulty that, at least in the United States, and I guess plenty of them all over the world have found, is that like people sign up, but they never complete. Yes, exactly. That's the completion rate is horrible. Exactly. A future learn, actually,

I think they have that kind of second or third mover advantage thing, or they knew that was a problem when they started. And I've got much better conversion rate. But yes, I mean, that's one of those solvable problems. That's how, you know, digital, lets you iterate, I think that will get solved. The bigger question is, kind of, what role does it play within a larger education kind of story?

It's not going to replace every form of education, so how does it fit? Right. Feels like that. Wearables. I noticed, Russell, you're wearing the Apple watch? Yes. I would have my coat. Sometimes I have my covert.

You're wearing an actual watch or maybe a lot. I have, normally I've got my covert on, do you know about be covert? No. So it's a beautiful jewelry that kind of you can set up to do. stuff so I have a bracelet and you can set it up just to buzz you if you get a text or a message or whatever or email from a particular set of individuals. So I might have Russell on red alerts so we'll just buzz discreetly. I don't have it on today. So that was a very long answer to your question. I've bought every smart watch for the last 25 years, I have to say. And the

eyewatch is the first one that almost works. You know, so I'm kind of very excited about the next version. It's one of my obsessions and again I think it's one of the things that hopefully outside the US we might get to think about is how you interact with the network and with computers in a way other than just touching a shiny screen and wearables and talking and talking and those kinds of things feel like interesting places. And I remember having a long discussion about 15 years ago I would really love a microchip in my wrist that just did all a lot of stuff. I had a very bad car accident and I have a lot of painklers I've managed in various different bits and pieces and I'm really

looking forward and I'm sure they'll crack it to either something internally in me or a wearable that would mean I didn't have to think about the drugs. They would be able to start telling me about the drugs. It'll be neat. It's coming. It's coming for sure, right? It's happening. This is an unfair, quick answer question about privacy. Well, I don't like it. Overrated. The biggest issue of the next 10 years, easily, easily. Because how are you going to And if you don't trust the organisation that you're being asked to interact with, eventually you're going to stop.

And there's going to be huge issues and data breaches and blah, blah, blah. And I think it's really interesting. There was another column this weekend, a funny writer called Giles Corrin, who was writing in our very brief comment, basically saying, oh, no one cares. Get over yourself. No one cares. They're not looking at you. And he was being provocative clearly, but regardless of kind of even interaction with organisations, I think we will really, really look back and say, hold on a minute.

minutes. Something has profoundly shifted if we are accepting that there needs to be a blanket surveillance of us all, which is what we are going through Parliament right now in the legislative process. So I don't know if it's the divining moment for the next five years, but it feels pretty important. I know that there's CCTV cameras all over London. We have more than any other country on the planet. But so, I mean, behaviorally are, you know, there's... Because we're much worse criminals, but... Apparently. Is there a different sense of privacy here in London? London or in, you know, in London, let's just say, then other places or?

I'm surprised because I always thought that we actually pretty private peoples. Yeah. And I think that plays, you know, classic implicit caricature of what I imagine is kind of reserved and sort of hierarchical and all of those things, which is why you sometimes find the extreme left and the extreme right uniting on these issues, as you do with many things. So, you know, but I think it's a universal human truth. So we're on, yeah. And we also don't have the same kind of constitutional, you know, like, you know, like,

written down constitutional defences against breaches of privacy. We kind of have centuries of habit and tradition and somewhat codified into law. And again, one of the reasons we've surrendered so much privacy is we had a generation of legislators who didn't understand what they were agreeing to, basically. And wait until we get something to do with the queen in her knickers or something where people really care, like, what?

Okay, that's too far. Doctor who? You're not a fan? No, sorry. I know if that's whatever I don't know I thought it was going to be a woman The New Star Wars

I have tried to avoid seeing anything So I can be excited So you're still excited I'm excited It was a big deal in my family My brother and I were completely obsessed My brother particularly And his now two little boys

Are also really obsessed And they say very casually things like You know the 1, 2, 3 were never very good Were they 4, 5, 6 they were the really good ones I think that's interesting That's come through someone else I think I wonder what the

musical tastes are too. Well, let me ask you this. Then this will be my final question. So given Silicon Valley's influence and given kind of how you see development in tech happening here, you know, if you could ask for another version of technology or another app or something that would help, what would you like people to get out there and start making? Politicians answer, but I don't care what they make as long as they make it in a different spirit. So I would like the values of it being for everyone, being diverse, including women in the design process in a completely different way, not necessarily thinking it's got to be an effing unicorn, just starting from a different point. I would just agree with Martha.

That's the easiest thing to do. So, and when will we stop being depressed and, uh, uh, disappointed. Do you think I look depressed and upset? No, you don't. Exactly. I'm not really. I like whipping them up a bit. And I think, you know, I'm lucky I've got a bit of a voice and sometimes I can take a position, which means then it might just in some small way encourage somebody else to have a conversation at my own, whatever, whatever, whatever. I'm not really depressed. I think we've got

a massive opportunity, but I think it won't just happen. We have to grab it and change it. That, to me, that's the really exciting thing, is that I think, given those blind spots that we've talked about, but also given the monumental stuff that's. Silicon Valley and the U.S. has achieved, if you kind of go, okay, they've achieved that with the handicap of those blind spots. What could we do if we overcame those? What could we do if we got the other 50% of the planet on board? That's the exciting bit. And parochially, that's the opportunity in the UK is to think a bit differently about this kind of stuff. And what's the risk if you don't follow through on that? I mean, there's a flip side, right? I mean, you start to see these

gaps widening, I think, or do you? I completely, I absolutely. think you do and I totally and completely reject the notion that somehow technology will be so easy it'll just be everywhere. I don't agree. I think I could easily imagine how in 20 years time we could have a profoundly disadvantage and dislocated and completely without, internet is

absent from in their lives, even in a hyper-connected super smart city. So that's one thing. And secondarily, I think we won't have people to do the jobs. I don't think we will have an economy because I think unless we put real attention into both filling the gaps that we have right now

in the digital sector, but also enabling, to Russell's point, those big organisations to be able to shift to enable us to keep that value. And I don't mean that just us locally here in the UK, but just keep the value in this society. Then we're going to be in a right old pickle. That's a proper British phrase to end it with. We're in a right old pickle, Michael. Here's to hoping that you are not in a right old pickle,

and somehow with you two on board, I doubt it. Martha Lane Fox, thank you so much. Thank you. It's a pleasure. And Russell Davies, thank you. Thank you.