a16z Podcast - Shonda Rhimes on How to Create Stories (and Products) People Want

Episode Date: December 17, 2019

Hollywood and Silicon Valley seem so different, but are more alike than we think. What challenges do tech startup founders and other creative founders -- like showrunners and executive producers -- similarly face? Both have to deeply understand and respect their audiences; learn how to scale themselves beyond one person; and even figure out how and when to use data... or follow their intuitions.In the end, it’s all about creating a story (product!) that sticks.In this conversation with Andreessen Horowitz cofounder and general partner Marc Andreessen, Shonda Rhimes -- executive producer, writer, creator of hit 100+ episode shows hows like Grey’s Anatomy and Scandal, and founder of the media company Shondaland -- shares the mindsets that drive her to pitch ideas, think about new mediums, and what happens when make believe veers too close to reality.Rhimes is the recipient of several industry awards and accolades, including a Golden Globe for Outstanding Television Drama, the Peabody Award, Time 100 most influential people, Fortune's “50 Most Powerful Women in Business", and lifetime achievement awards from the Directors Guild of America, the Writers Guild of America, and the Producers Guild of America. She has been inducted into the National Association of Broadcasters Broadcasting Hall of Fame and to the Television Academy of Arts & Sciences Hall of Fame. She is also the creative director of Dove’s #RealBeauty campaign and authored NYT bestseller Year of Yes.The conversation originally took place at our most recent annual innovation Summit -- which features a16z speakers and invited experts from various organizations discussing innovation at companies large and small, as well as tech trends spanning bio, consumer, crypto, fintech, and more.

Hi everyone, welcome to the A6 and Z podcast. I'm Sonal. Today's episode, which was originally recorded at our most recent annual innovation summit in Los Angeles, features A6 and Z co-founder Mark Andreessen interviewing prolific writer and executive producer Shonda Rhymes, who will also premiere new content on Netflix along with an original slate of podcasts in 2020. So very fitting to be sharing that here. The episode that follows covers the challenges all creative founders face whether for Hollywood show business or Silicon Valley tech companies or elsewhere, from scaling themselves beyond one person to figuring out how and when to use data or follow their intuition, and much, much more.

Hey, everybody. Thank you all for being here today. Shonda, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for asking you. We know you live a fairly busy life, and so it's a big deal to get here tonight. We're just thrilled to talk to you. So I'd like to start with a show of hands. How many people in this audience have seen the TV show, a little independent TV show on a little obscure network called Gray's Anatomy.

Is that right? And then keep the hands up, let's keep the hands up. And then who on top of that, who has seen the TV show scandal? And then on top of that, let's put up for How to Get Over with Murder. There we go. I see two hands up in the front. Fantastic. I'm a little concerned.

I know who that is, and the fact that she's seen that show is, makes me a little nervous. So I'd like to start by quoting TED Talk. So in your words, I think how you actually introduced your seat. described what you do in a TED talk a few years back. So, quote, three shows in production at a time, sometimes four. The budget for one episode of network television can be anywhere from three to six million dollars, let's say five. A new episode made every nine days times four shows.

So every nine days, that's $20 million worth of television. Four television programs, 70 hours of TV, three shows in production at a time, sometimes four, 16 episodes going on at all times, $350 million a season in budget. But my television shows are back to back to back on Thursday night. All around the world, my shows air in 256 territories and 67 languages for an audience of 30 million people. I think this gives us some stuff to talk about. So this is a conference about builders, about people who build things, people who create things, people who create products, people who create companies, create experiences.

In Silicon Valley, when we talk about the building process, we talk about it in two phases, going from what we call zero to one, which is creating something from scratch for the first time. And then we talk about the process of going from one to N, right, doing that thing then repeatedly, which is a whole other challenge. So I'd love to talk about both parts of that

in your career. And so the zero to one part is, how do you go from having no shows on network television to having one show on network television? That is the lightning in a bottle thing. You know, it's having the idea that sparks something for somebody that, you know, nobody else has had, that you don't know is going to work, and you're working your tail off, you know, day in and day out. It's making the

pitch, it's getting in the room, and then it's doing the work and hoping it works. And as somebody who had never had any experience in television before, you know, it's hard for me to say how it doesn't work, which is an odd thing. You know, for a lot of people, it's, they started as his staff, writer and they worked their way up, they work their way through the business, and then they get their own show. I thought I'd been writing movies, and I thought I'd like to write a television show, and I wrote Grey's Anatomy. And it really did work that way, and so I went from zero to 60 very quickly, which was

terrifying. What was the process, and I should describe the audience, we'll talk about this more later, but you did work in film. Yes. My favorite credit on your IMDB is that, you know which one I'm going to say, right? In fact, the screenwriter for the Britney Spears highlight movie, Crossroads. If you have a teenage daughter, she's seen it. Yep, 100%, 100%.

And maybe if you haven't. So how did you... So you had worked in film, you were successful in film, you had credits and so forth, you had had projects made. How did you... What was the process of going from that to being in the room pitching Graves Anatomy? Like, how did that work? Basically, I had a child.

and I was stuck at home suddenly because when you have a child you cannot leave your house and I started watching television which I hadn't really been doing before and realized that all of the really great character development that I had been really wishing for in movies was happening on television. I watched 24 hours of 24 in 24 hours

like it was that fast and thought like wow this is interesting and so really went to my agent and said can I have a chance at doing this And, you know, went to the meeting, started thinking up ideas, started pitching, you know, did the work of research, figuring out what was going to work, pitched an idea, didn't have that one go, pitched another idea. I think I pitched maybe three ideas. And they said, sure, like, do this one. Right. And medical dramas obviously have been a staple of television for a long time, and there have been many famous ones, well-regarded ones. What was it about the idea of a medical drama that you felt like you could make it,

you felt like it was sort of a pre-established concept at the generic level, but something that you could make special? Well, there were two things. One, I had done these ideas, and I'd pitched them, and they hadn't worked, and it hadn't worked, and so I said, well, what does Bob Eiger want? Because really know what your customer wants. And this is literally Bob, this is ABC, so this is. There's ABC.

It's literally what to... Figuratively Bob Iger. Literally, what does Bob Iger want? And they said, he really wants a medical show. And I thought, okay. So, one, it was about that. I really wanted to make something that they wanted. And then it was about making something that I wanted to see.

Like, I was an audience that I knew, if I made something I wanted to see, I was going to be passionate about it. And so I started talking to young female surgical residents about what their lives were like. And I'd been watching all those, like, weird surgery shows that used to be on TLC, they would remove, like, giant tumors from people.

And I thought that was super interesting. And melding those two ideas really came together. I was a woman. I was interested in the idea of surgery. Why would I be writing about a dude? Like, it didn't make any sense to me. It felt like it made sense to me to write about, you know, young people entering this new profession,

and to make it a woman, and then to make it a bunch of different kinds of people. Okay, so then obviously, Grace Net, they bought it very well. It's still on the air, season 16, on the air. We just shot a 350th episode. Not that many shows make it to 16 seasons? Yes, not very many at all.

Gunsmoke? Yeah, mash. Mash? Yeah. Great anatomy. So not bad. So, okay, so for a lot of people, that would have been, obviously, that was a big success. For a lot of people that would have been a career defining success and maybe the definition of somebody's career, how did you make the decision to go from having one show on the air to overtime having two and then three and then ultimately

an even larger number? I used to jokingly say I want to take over the world through television. And it, I'll be honest, in this room, it was not a joke for me. I really thought, like, I want to take over the world through television. Like, if I'm going to do something, I want to be really good at it. And that had been my first show, so it felt like a fluke, and I didn't want it to feel like a fluke to me. So I wanted to do more. But also, it was this feeling of, you know, in the beginning, you made a show, and it had gone for one season or two seasons, three seasons.

I thought, well, we could get canceled at any minute. This could go away at any second. I need a second line. So it really was about finding, like, another show just in case. It was, you know, that thing of, like, keep something else going. Right. And so I would imagine you were flat out working on Grays at the time. How do you kind of then create for yourself, for yourself the time,

but then also the organization around you to be able to then do more than one? In the beginning, it was about, like, overworking myself almost to the point of full-out exhaustion, not really understanding what needed to be done. And then it really was figuring out how to build the infrastructure. You know, I had a non-writing producing partner, which was really helpful. Then it was taking the people who I'd worked with for a long enough time and, you know, spreading them out to understand, like, you guys go be where I can't be because I already trust you, and getting the talent pool large enough

and training people enough to the way I thought so that if I wasn't there looking, they were. And trusting people. You cannot do a job like that if you don't trust the people around you. otherwise you're going to be trying to do everything and that's going to flatten you very quickly. Right. So a lot of people who have one hit do try to create a production companies and they do try to scale like that.

Most of them aren't able to do it? I think a lot of people are able to do it if other people are the creators. If you have other creators it's a lot easier because it's not all on you. For me, I had Grays Anatomy, private practice, and scandal all going at the same time for a while and that was brutal.

Right, right. Today you have how many shows on the air in total? And in production? I think we have five shows in production right now. Could you maybe walk us through a day in the life? Now I have a company that has, I think there are 38 of us or maybe 40 of us working at my company. I now have a full scale basically mini studio with a head of production, a head of post production, a head of content, a head of digital content, a head of branding.

So we have like this great group of people. So for me it's about coming in. I have an executive team. I have a leadership team. It's about talking to everybody and finding out what's going on. It gives me time to then go spend in my writer's room with my writers to get my creative work done because, honestly, that's what Netflix is paying me for. And then to get all the creative work done.

And then I can talk to the other creators of the other shows that we're doing and give them what they need, which sometimes is just mentorship. Sometimes it's just listening to them, rant about things. Sometimes it's just telling them they're doing a good job. And deal with actors or networks or whatever needs to be done. And then it's about sort of coming together with everybody at the end of the day, figuring out what needs to be done. A lot of what I do is listening to the problem solving

that everybody else is doing for me. My head of production will say, I did this and it saved $20 million from this, or my head of content will say, this was a nightmare, but it's already taken care of. We've all worked together for so long at this point. Everybody's a very well-oiled machine. So let's say I'm a newly mentioned graduate

of, let's say, a top-end program like that. Let's say, I want to come work for you and be part of this machine. I want to be number 41. What would I have to do to establish myself to the level that you would take a chance on me to be part of this? I like really interesting, hardworking people.

For me, it's not about pedigree or any of that. It's about output. What have you done? What have you done that's creative? How pull yourself up by your bootstraps have you been? We have a wonderful girl who works for us who, she doesn't have a car. And so she has to Uber everywhere she goes, which is, you know, in L.A. is like a nightmare.

And part of her job is like going to a million different places, I should say. But she is such a hard, amazing working person. I was, you know, we hire her anyway. It doesn't matter. We're going to figure out how to make that work. And we did. So to me, it's about people who are passionate about what they do, who are going to sort of eat, sleep and breathe it.

I also like people who know how to have a life outside, because the more creative you can be on the outside, the more you bring to the inside. And then suppose I've been working for you for three, four, five, six years, and I poke my head up and I say, boy, I have an idea for a show I'd like to make, and I'd like to make it under your umbrella. What do I have to do to get to that level? Well, that happens all the time. So the show we're doing right now called Bridgeton,

which is being made by Chris Van Dusen. Chris was my assistant on Graves Anatomy. He's making a show. Pete Nook, who does How to Get It With Murder. He was a baby writer on private practice, I think, and Grace Anatomy at a certain point in time. That's how we roll. I like to raise the people

who are going to be our next group of writers, mainly because they already know how to do everything, but also because there's so many interesting people who come through who are the next great purveyors of ideas who sometimes get overlooked. Right, right. So one of the things that Hollywood and Silicon Valley has in common is we both launch these projects and some of them work and some of them don't.

Yes. And even the best entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley and even the best creators in Hollywood have projects, some projects succeed, some projects don't. As you think about this kind of production company studio umbrella that you're building as you have all these projects, what's the success rate that you expect to have and why? What's the right success rate? I'm very hard on myself. Like I've never created a show that hasn't gone less than 100 episodes,

you know, so I'm very hard on myself. You've written treatments and screenplays for things that haven't gotten picked up. Maybe one. Okay, all right, okay, all right. But I've never produced anything that hasn't gone, you know, that way. You have a lot more projects underway now? Yeah, I have a lot more projects underway now, and some of them aren't supposed to go that long, so it's not that thing. But I have a real, like, panic about not doing well for me.

But for shows that we're making, it's really about, a lot of it is about, like, helping somebody figure out how you run a show. Running a show is not an easy thing. It's, you go from being a writer who's writing at home in your pajamas to having 350 people working for you, looking at you and saying, what do we do now? So it's not a simple, like, way of being.

So to me, it's about sort of helping them stand on their own two feet because eventually they're going to have to, whether or not you're shoring them up or not, they really have to be able to do it for themselves. So for some people, that's easier than for others. For some people, it's, like, duck to water. For some people, it's really teaching them how to swim. When do you know that a show is going to work?

Oh. What's the moment? You know, I don't know. Well, yes, I think you do. You know around episode 10. Is that right? Do you have to get that far into it before you feel certain? For the shows I make, for shows we make with other people,

around episode 10, I become sure. Whether or not it's going to survive, really, whether or not it has an engine that can keep going, whether or not I feel like I understand what the show is. Because until then, you're still just finding it. You've just started to work with all these people. You're all getting your feet wet. You're figuring out what this thing is.

you know, you're making a product and you've only been working together for, by that point, it's maybe six months, seven months. Right. Yeah, you see these shows that they take, well, Parks and Recre was maybe a famous example of this. They kind of take a left turn. Yes. And then some of them take a left turn and get much, much better. Succession is a show, there are also people talking about that way.

I haven't seen season two yet. Oh, it's genius. No spoilers, no spoilers. But I've heard it's even, I love season one, but I've heard it's even better in season two. And so it's a left turn to greatness. Is that the kind of, it's the result of the cohesion of the people? It's, part of it's, you figure out what you have, you gel, scandal, we, I feel like we were like, we don't quite know what we're doing season one, and then we got to the end of season one, and we hit this episode where you sort of saw what happened in the past, and we all let, okay, now we understand our show completely. Grey's was very different.

I sort of knew from the beginning what was going on, but it wasn't until the ex-wife showed up. Like there were these moments when you sort of, when things gel and you know what the show is. and it starts to sing. Do you do test screenings for your shows? The network does test screenings, yes. Do you find value in test screenings, or no? It's an interesting question. I find value in it, especially when, like, for instance,

when we were making Greys and I was this kid who was making a show and they had no idea who I was, and they were very worried about, you know, what is this show? There had never been a show where, you know, women were that competitive, where a woman had slept with a guy the night before her first day of work, where there were that many people of color in a show.

They were very nervous. And so, you know, I'd been sort of keeping my head down and just doing my work and hoping for the best. Testing was great because testing then proved that the show was working for them. It proved what I felt, you know, was a good show, was a good show for that. So testing does help because it backs up, you know, the suits who need to know that this is going to work if they need numbers for themselves to show people. But it's never been a thing that I've really paid attention to, a real way in network television, because testing in network television is really about opinion.

I'm very excited about it at a place like Netflix, because the data is very different than testing. So that's my next question. So what kinds of data would you find useful in the creative process? Well, right now I'm excited by the concept that I could be told, for instance, like exactly when a whole group of people decide they're going to stop watching something. Because that's very different than, you know, in network television, people will say, like, I hate that character, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that they're going to stop watching. People say they hate somebody, and they love to hate them.

They're going to keep watching. It doesn't matter, but it can be interpreted differently. But in data, when they say, like, everybody stopped watching exactly at this moment. That is real, and that helps us, you know, if you really want to know it. And I haven't gotten to use it yet, but I'm excited by the idea of getting to. We'll talk more about Netflix in a few minutes, but I'd love to talk a little bit more about the distinction between film and TV, because it feels like something very important is happening.

So TV is like mass market entertainment. It may be not expected to be at the same creative bar, although there were obviously exceptions along the way. And then it feels like something may be flipped. What I think about is that television is the writer-driven medium, as you mentioned, where the writers are actually given control of the show. And, of course, legendarily in the film industry, that is not the case.

It's directors, yes. Right. And there have been actually books written about how terrible it can be for the writers to see the results of their work go through the sausage-making machine. And so would you agree with the thesis that there's been this inversion of quality? from film to TV? Would you agree it's because it's writer-driven,

or would you have a different point of view on that? I don't like to use the word quality, because I think the quality makes it about what's good and what's bad. I think that movies like Star Wars and Jaws and all these really awesome blockbuster movies changed the idea of what a movie could be. And the pursuit of a big blockbuster changed what people were interested in making. Oh, and over time, you know,

for a while it meant they could make blockbusters and they could make these amazing, you know, smaller character-driven movies. And then over time it began, they made more just big blockbuster action movies. Then they made more blockbuster action movies and just remakes. And at a certain point, that began to be what was lucrative for them, period. Less prestige films and more, just bigger movies. And, you know, I like a good Marvel movie, so I'm fine with it. But it did mean that a lot of that character-based stuff didn't get,

made. And at a certain point, I think a lot of writers realized that if they wanted to make those kinds of stories and if they wanted to have control of them, you could make a lot of stuff on television. It literally was 2003 or four when I sat down and said, oh, all the good character-driven stuff can be made on television. So it is that time. Right. And was it putting the writers in charge? Was that the... Well, I mean, television wasn't, I mean, in film, we always say the director fires the writer, and in television, the writer fires the director. Like, and that's always been the way it's been. So I think that it's just a writer-driven medium.

Right. It's amazing because you think of in films, the director is so important. Yes. And yet in TV shows, every episode is a different director. And the director is very important. It's simply that the writer has to continue.

You're writing a, it's like writing a continuously long, crazy epic novel. So the writer is the person who's the through line. Right. Okay, and then another analogy between Hollywood and the valley that I think about a lot is both of our worlds, there's a form of creative expression. There's creative expression in the form of creating the product

and then creating the company, right, that makes the product. But then it's also a business. And I think one of the things that you've said is that everybody does need to eat. Yes. And so it is important to also create it as a business. Like how do you navigate as a creative professional,

how do you navigate that line between art and business? Well, part of what I think is that, you know, you have to really think about your audience. And I don't think that there's any shame in that. I enjoy writing for my audience, not necessarily to my audience or, you know, like thinking about my advertisers in that way. But I enjoy writing for the audience that I'm writing for. You know, there's a lot of entry points for the audience that we have, and they're awesome.

You know, they're loyal and they're wonderful, and they pay attention, and they care. And you have to respect that. And I don't think that there's any shame in that. Like, there's something about the idea that you can ignore your audience and think that you're still going to get somewhere, that is not very smart. So I enjoy writing for the audience and really enjoy the stories that I'm telling.

And I do think that if you're passionate about that, you can still be creative. Your shows are very adventurous. Many things happen in your shows, and the characters do many things. How do you know when you're pushing the audience too far? Is that possible? It definitely is possible.

Usually, by the time I'm pushing them, very far. They've been with us for so long that they're just like, oh, God, is she going there, you know? So it's sometimes it's okay. Yeah. I mean, at one point on scandal, two of the characters ended up basically being sociopathic serial killers in a love-struck relationship. It was, it's Washington. And by the way, like we watched every episode. Yeah, it's Washington. Well, it is. But, you know, a lot of bad things had happened to them, and it felt like a, the right place for them to go. But it was this very, you know, it was, it went with the idea that, like, D.C. was filled with monsters at the time.

Right. Not literal monsters. But it was this very dark world. And there's a lot of things that happen. And I feel like you're following story and following story and following story sometimes. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Right. So I remember watching, you know, watching Scandal.

Scandal started in 20, probably 12, 13. Yeah, 2012. So 2012. And I remember thinking, okay, boy, like this is a crazy version of Washington, D.C. And I am so glad that normal Washington, D.C. isn't crazy like this. And then I watched season two and season three. And then I started paying attention to normal watching D.C. And I was like, oh, my goodness, things are getting crazy in real life.

And so then it was like, you know, given what I was given on Thursday night, do I watch Scandal or do I watch The News? Is it a challenge for somebody writing a show like that? Well, what happened for us is first we wrote about this made-up thing that we made up called Thorngate, where if you there was a spy thing that could like use your phone to spy on you and it's absurd

I mean that's just paranoid exactly and it could you know listen to your conversations and we thought we were just being like wild and then two months later it was happening and like that kept happening to us mainly because we were sort of reading the papers and sort of extrapolating like what ifs

then and we thought that was fun and the people you know the critics thought it was fun and we thought like this cute But then we made up the wild and crazy, like, southern, like, billionaire who wanted to run for president and seemed to be, like, just somebody. And then it was happening. And that was not as funny, because it was, like, too real, and it kept being very real. And then at a certain point, we thought, we can't surpass what's happening in Washington.

Like, there was a moment when I just thought, I don't even know how to surpass what's happening in Washington. We did our inauguration, and it just felt like what's happening in real life is just way crazier. And I thought, like, I'm done, which is why we ended in season seven. I thought, I cannot write anymore about what's happening.

We'd have to go the other way. We'd have to go, like, way serious in order to make it that interesting. For a long time, I used to ask my friends in D.C., is Washington more like scandal or Veep? Yeah. And for a long time, the answer was Veep. I know.

I know, and I was very proud of that. So we'll finish up by talking about tech and talking about what you're not doing with Netflix. First, I'd love to ask, has social media kind of arrived kind of mid these shows for you and kind of mid your career? Has social media changed how you do what you do?

Scandal really helped change how people use TV shows to do what they do. Like we were part of the start of live tweeting shows. That was one of the things that we all did at the very beginning, and the live tweeting of shows was really a big deal and how we interacted with fans.

So it's changed the way we interacted with fans. It didn't change the way we wrote the shows or create the shows, but it was a very quick means of communicating with critics, talking to the press, and hearing what the fans had to say. I've heard a theory that from friends of mine

in the movie business that social media has made movies much harder because you used to be able to release a movie on Friday, and if the movie wasn't that great, people would still see it for three, four, or five days. You could have that first opening, weekend. You could maybe still make a profit in that movie. Today, the movie comes out, you know, shows up in the theaters 5 o'clock by 6 o'clock or 7 o'clock on Friday night.

The buzz is out. The buzz is not good. The movie just dies. And so one of the arguments I've heard is that that's one of the things that's reduced risk taking in the film business. Oh, that's interesting. Do you buy that? It's highly possible. I mean, one of the things that was great for us was because the live tweeting was so important and because it meant that if you missed it, you missed the conversation, we sort of brought back watching a show in real time. So it worked great for network television for that moment. But I do think for things like movies, it's dangerous.

Because also spoilers. I've seen things where people completely tell the ends of movies on Twitter and things like that. Streaming, I think it's a good thing for an audience as well because it does get the word out. Right. As I said, we'll talk about Netflix. But when you make your shows for Netflix now,

will they be released weekly the way you have been or will you do the bench model? I really am big on binge watching myself, so I'm hoping they're all released binge in a binge way. So then one of the things you hear about, one of the questions about, I mean, binging as a consumer proposition is amazing, and I think we all love it.

One of the things you do hear is it does reduce that water cooler effect, that kind of simultaneous experience. And you do get these shows, you know, like what's the, you do get, you know, obviously Game of Thrones has been a recent example of this, where it's just like where it feels like, at least for a brief moment in time, the whole country is watching the same thing again,

is that, do you think that that's something that should be preserved, or is that just, is that not necessary? I'm not that worried about it. I mean, and I think I'm not that worried about it because I still, you know, I'm in the grocery store and I still turn around a corner and there's a 12-year-old staring at me and suddenly I'm Jesus and I realize

oh, you've just watched 300 episodes of Grazed Anatomy like at once. So I think that binging, no matter what, still works. And I don't think you have to have your water cooler moments all at once. I think that there's something interesting about telling somebody like, oh my God, have you seen, you know, dark, which is my

favorite show? Have you seen dark? And you have to watch it and you go crazy on it and then somebody else watches it and it's sort of like you're passing on like a secret. Yeah, almost like a novel. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay. Let's talk about Netflix. So, so you've made this huge announcement recently, you're moving to Netflix and you have this big new deal relationship of Netflix. I was going to ask you, well, the shows you make for Netflix be different than the shows you make for ABC. But you have said, I believe, that the shows that you've made for ABC are shows made for ABC, whereas shows made for Netflix will be shows made for the world? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a difference.

ABC has a very specific audience of people who watch shows on ABC. They have a brand themselves, and there's a group of people they are making shows for. They have advertisers who they need to keep happy, and there's a system. And I think that that's great. I mean, that's what's been working. So Netflix's thing is very different. Like, the idea for Netflix is my job is to make. shows that make people want to subscribe to Netflix, which is very different than keeping people

watching. You know what I mean? It's just different, bringing people to a show for a specific hour of time. So it means we can make almost anything as long as it's good. And so for us, it's been really fun to expand the content of what we're making while still keeping what I think are the same core audience members in our minds. Right. What does, what does, I mean, in general terms, for specifics, but in general terms, what does Netflix ask from you when you want to make a show as part of your new partnership?

I can tell you exactly in specific terms what they ask from us, which is make whatever makes you happy, which has been fantastic. I mean, that's an extraordinary deal to have to get to work with people who are like, just make stuff that's good. And they've been very supportive about that.

Do they connect that back to like projections on subscriber numbers or retention? Or does that come later? Or do they, that's just not part of the conversation? Yeah, no. There's no, we don't have to ask those questions. Like, that's not a thing that happens. It's more about, are you excited about this?

That's great. Go. We go to them and we say, we're going to make, you know, eight episodes this or ten episodes this, or we're excited about this. And they've been very supportive. That might change if we start to make things that are terrible. But right now, they're very, very supportive of us making, you know, our shows. Right.

And it's the right format, one of the, sort of, the formats of entertainment kind of change the technology. And so, you know, there's sort of, you know, arguments about why, you know, TV shows are half hour and an hour and it has to do with, you know, the distribution of, you know, commercials, commercial placement, has to do with, you know, the viewing patterns and how long people will sit and so forth.

Is, like, the 45-minute, one-hour drama and the half-hour comedy? Is that the stable state, even in a streaming world? Do you think the sort of shape of programs will change? You know, it's interesting. I think it was Amazon that made the 30-minute show Homecoming, which was, there was a drama, but it was 30 minutes, and it was really interesting, and people stayed riveted.

They've made a couple of things that have been, like, 15-minute comedies, which are surprising. I don't know about the length. I know that for me, writing something that's about 60 pages long, which is about 45 minutes long on television, feels right.

It's what I know how to do. And it feels good to me. I have not reached a point now where I'm thinking like I need to write something that's an hour in 15 minutes or that I need to write something that's only 20 minutes long. That's not my thing.

I've also read, I've seen studies over the years. Stephen Johnson, the author wrote a book called Everything Bad is Good for You, where among other things, makes a very positive case for television. One of the things he shows in that book is that television shows have gotten much more complex over time.

And so if you chart the plot of a drama from the 1970s and compare it to the Sopranos or to Grey's Anatomy, it's just like a wildly different level of complexity and therefore kind of stimulation. I've heard an argument that streaming will lead to a dramatic even increase in complexity and sophistication as a consequence of the fact

no commercial breaks, right? So no need for the cliffhanger and then pick the narrative back up and then also no need to have the recap of the next episode, because I guess you assume the binging model. Does this open the door to a much more sophisticated form of entertainment? I think it can. I mean, and I think what's very interesting for somebody coming from so many years of writing

network television, it's been fun to really play with that, to know, like, we don't have to recap, we don't have to have act breaks, we don't have to worry about, like, how to get somebody from that episode to this episode. You know, there's a lot of things that go away when you don't have to do that. And it does feel like stories can get more complex because you don't have to worry about driving the things forward in that way. But I also am, like, I like a good plot. Like, I like when things are moving forward.

I enjoy the pace of something like scandal. Writing it is fun. And so to me, a lot of streaming shows get really slow because they know they can because they know you're streaming them. I don't think that's for me in terms of the way I write things. I enjoy watching them, but I don't think it's for me. So we're still moving at a pace. And then on your, I saw an interview you did about your Netflix deal.

Your company, Shand, is moving to a new facility. And there's a vignette, one of the stories that has you and your partners looking at photos on the wall of the founders of United Artists. Oh, yeah. Which is a studio from classic Hollywood, from Golden Age, Golden Age Hollywood. Maybe, and you talked about, I think, a little bit, or maybe that's a little bit of an inspiration for where you're headed with Shandaland, or maybe there's some historical legacy there to...

We've really created... We were able to create a model in the beginning when we first got there to find a way to hold on to a series of our writers and to make it sort of a creative home for people to stay versus, you know, you have to go away and take a deal here and come back there and get hired for this show and come back.

I was like, can't we have more of an incubator for writers? And Netflix was very excited about that idea and amenable to that idea, and I felt like that, felt like a home of a bunch of creative people, like all running in and out of their offices and screaming about how things aren't working and helping each other felt good.

So United Artists, the history for those you don't, the history of United Artists was it was a studio founded by some of the legendary creative talent at that time. Douglas Fairbanks, Mary Pickford, a series of these people, and it ran for quite a while with the kind of model that you're describing. But then at a certain point, that ended in the sort of modern studio world that we know of

kind of dominated for the last 50 years, Like, did that have to end? Why would now be the right time for that to come back? Because we can, and we're enjoying ourselves, and we can do it. And also, it feels like a really good creative time. Everything feels new. You know, we're on this new horizon of where we can go in terms of this industry. You know, something is sort of going down and something is coming up,

and that means, I don't know, just a new space for us. That's great. Maybe we could close on three recommendations from you for TV shows, films, or books that aren't made by you. Well, yeah, there's plenty of those. I highly recommend Dark, which is a German show on Netflix, and it's so good.

Now, do I watch that with dubs, or do I watch that with subtitles? It depends on if you're a dub or subtitle person. Dark is one of those shows where they're speaking German, but the actors who do the German also do their own dubs. So it's actually really good.

And the fact that I know that means I'm a super nerd. Succession, which you have not seen, but you obviously need to see because it's genius. Succession? That show is nonfiction, right? Yeah, that's another one of those shows. And probably Barry, which is really fantastic. A comedy on HBO.

Yeah, it's a comedy in HBO. It's really beautiful. Yeah. What makes Barry special? I think just the way it was written and the way it's performed, that show feels like nothing else on television right now. That's great.

Shonda Rimes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.