a16z Podcast - The Social Serendipity of Cloud Gaming

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

True cloud-native games—those exclusive to and solely playable within the cloud—are poised to revolutionize gameplay and unlock new avenues of hyper-personalized storytelling and socializing. It's a vision that, though steadily advancing, is still in its early stages. Just one year ago this week, Google launched its cloud gaming service, Stadia, which shares the space with competitors including Microsoft's xCloud, Playstation Now, and Nvidia’s GeForce. In this episode, Jade Raymond, VP of Stadia Games and Entertainment, Jonathan Lai, formerly of Riot Games and Tencent, and host Lauren Murrow talk about the challenges in building cloud-native games, their potential to upend prevailing business models and pricing, and, most importantly, the spontaneous, social, super-shareable experiences that true cloud streaming  will reveal. Through the rise of user-generated content, AI, and the cloud, they believe we're inching ever closer to the Metaverse.This episode is part of Social Strikes Back, a new series exploring the next generation of social networks and how they’re shaping the future of consumer tech. See more at a16z.com/social-strikes-back. 

Hi and welcome with the A16D podcast. I'm Lauren Murrow. True cloud native games, those exclusive to and solely playable within the cloud, are poised to revolutionize gameplay and unlock new avenues of hyper-personalized storytelling and socializing. It's a vision that, though steadily advancing, is still in its early stages. Just one year ago this week, Google launched its cloud gaming service, Stadia, which shares the space with competitors, including Microsoft's X-Cloud, PlayStation Now, and Nvidia's G-Force. In this episode, Jade Raymond, VP of Stadia Games and Entertainment, formerly of Ubisoft, and A16Z partner Jonathan Lye, formerly of Riot Games and Tencent,

talk about the challenges behind building cloud native games, the potential to upend prevailing business models and pricing, and most importantly, the spontaneous, social, super-sharable experiences that cloud gaming will reveal. This vision goes far beyond massive battle royals or hyper-realistic graphics through the rise of user-generated content, AI and the cloud, they believe we're inching ever closer to the metaverse. The first voice we hear is Jade, as she explains how she became obsessed with games at a young age. None of the following should be taken as investment advice. See A6 and Z.com slash disclosures for more information.

So I always knew I wanted to make games. I figured it out when I was about 12 years old. I was visiting my uncle who lived in San Francisco at the time, and I made it my mission to beat him at all of his games before I left for the visit. And it was during that time that it dawned on me that someone gets to make games. And I thought, that's awesome. Why not me? I had already been into robotics and done a little bit of programming. But that's when I really decided to focus on that as a career and started working on game projects in my spare time. So how does building for cloud differ from what you've done before? I've always been attracted by the bleeding edge of games. Games are constantly reinvented. If you look at what a video game was 10 years ago, it was totally

different. 20 years ago, what drew me to, for example, working on the Assassin's Creed franchise and building that up was that next-gen consoles were coming. And that was a big opportunity to go, okay, what can we do with 8X, the processing power? And so a lot of those questions that have pushed me towards my career decisions all along is what attracted me to Google this time, which is, you know, okay, it's not 8X. It's the whole data center is your processing power. Okay, it's the whole model for how we think about client server or multiplayer games needing to work is totally upended and changed.

Some of the largest games today, Fortnite, Clash with Clans, they run most of their network on the cloud. So, John, what distinguishes what we have now from true cloud streaming or what you call cloud native gaming? So the first wave, which is what we're seeing right now, It looks like it's actually mostly been quits of existing PC and console titles, and so there's a title that's really underdevelopment for PlayStation 4, the Xbox 1, and it was traditionally written it in the cloud. These games were fundamentally developed with a different hardware platform, and so we're most excited about this second wave of games that might be coming around the corner. We call them cloud-needed games, but what they really are, any game that's built from the ground up for the cloud.

That's only playable within the cloud infrastructure as opposed to something that was supported. We are currently in the first wave of cloud gaming, and really what we're seeing is the convenience of cloud gaming. What we're seeing is, okay, it's all the games that we can play in other places, but we get rid of the download time, we can play more instantly, we don't have to worry about updates, we can play on different screens. Those are great benefits, but I think the really exciting thing, and I think that's what's going to be kind of the equivalent of what TV was to radio is when we unlock what the second wave of cloud gaming is. One of the things is obviously the whole client server model. Right now, you're limited to the interactions and simulations

that can run locally on people's machines. No matter what, even if you're running in your example, Fortnite is running on the cloud and a lot of other games are as well on the back end, they're still designed with the idea that they have to run on a local PC or a local console or a local mobile device in some cases. And really what's going to unlock it is not only the processing power and what we call elastic compute of the data center, but also the idea that essentially any game can be designed like one big land party. So you don't have to worry about network ping times. You can at least know exactly what those are and design

for them and measure them in a consistent way. And also that hits up against a limit of how big of a shared experience you can have. Are there new game mechanics or even game genres that you find uniquely enabled through the cloud? John, you've written about how it might help solve games cold start problem. But what are some of the other mechanics that you see enabled by cloud gaming? When you think about the magic of cloud gaming, you're being sent a stream that from the pipes and stuff, it looks exactly like a stream of video data. When you think about this new paradigm, there can be a one-to, sort of infinite and very strange connection of what inputs impact that stream. So if you think about it, someone typing in the side of a YouTube chat

can have an input into my environment. They type tomato, tomatoes start falling from the sky in my game. Thousands of people connected to my game could be there playing the role of, let's say, a zombie horde that's attacking. Those all could be real players, right? And their input could just be on a mobile phone and a very simple interface for doing that because to be a zombie, you don't need so many controls. I think a lot of the really exciting things is that disassociation of the direct relationship between number of people connected to a client, either one or, you know, X8 or whatever, 100 is typically the biggest we've seen, and this way that tons of inputs can impact the simulation live.

I love that idea. I feel like there's always been something magical with a combination of live video and games. You've had this Twitch play series where someone will play a game on Twitch, except the people playing it. There's actually the Twitch audience, and so it started off a Pokemon, and it's gone through several games, but it's essentially crowdsourced game playing. And then recently, you've had things like Netflix, Band of Snatch where people, have experimented to making interactive, choose your adventure stories that the whole family can play

and debate over like, what do you go left or right? The protagonist should like kiss the girl or not. So I think there's something magical about that kind of combination of live video and games. And I would love to figure out what does a next generation American Idol look like? We have millions of people all watching the same stream that are voting or typing or doing something to affect the show. except I feel like there's something there that we haven't seen yet that could be pretty compelling. And then even things like Among Us, which is so, so popular right now,

I've often wondered, is there a way for that to be more interactive between the people that are watching? Because it's a big live-steaming phenomenon. So, for example, imagine an Among Us game where the audience actually voted on who the imposter was, and then it becomes a player's job to try to act and convince a live-steaming audience. They're not the imposter and this other person is. it becomes like 50% B&D and 25% game and 25% reality TV show.

On that note, what are some new business models that you'd expect cloud gaming to enable? One area I'm interested in in particular is how it might set the new stage for even new forms of marketing. I'm sort of obsessed with the idea of bringing back arcades or the arcade experience now that cloud gaming is there. Because really, you don't have to pay for a whole game anymore. So even with this first wave, there's an opportunity to say, well, maybe I buy a bunch of coins like I did in the arcade and I play 10 minutes of this and then I hopped to the next and my coins go to the next experience. And I think there's a whole bunch of interesting ways to think about that opening up games as well to all kinds of communities that maybe can't afford the $70 or didn't get to play AAA games. And then you could also create business models that could either be those coins you buy them or they're ad subsidized. So I feel there's a ton of opportunities, not only in business models, but also how you think about

recommendation systems. Like, imagine we're in a crew, and we wanted to get a high impact bunch of combat, like we wanted some melee combat kind of action. You could imagine making a playlist of 100 different games with the highlights of all the best melee boss battle parts. And as a little group, we could sort of teleport from game experience to game experience. So there's a whole lot what we can do in terms of delivery, recommendation, and business models. Do you think game companies, developers will also have to figure out new pricing models with this paradigm shift? We're seeing a big shift towards subscription. There's been an ongoing shift towards free-to-play in games. And then I think, you know, they're the new crazy ideas

that I had for more traditional box products of like, can you bring back the arcade? Can we bring back micro payments? Can we bring back ad revenue? I think also, though, if we're talking about the metaverse vision, then what's the marketplace? Is there a global marketplace for all of these experiences that people can tap into? Is there a kind of eBay for virtual stuff? And can that virtual stuff move back and forth between the different experiences? Is there an API or a standards so that stuff can move around between these experiences. The interesting thing is all these pricing models, there are historical precedence for them. What keeps me up in night is trying to figure out are there new pricing models that we haven't

seen yet that are possible within a cloud gaming ecosystem, which actually make more sense than any of those models. Subscriptions made sense in a legacy world, free-to-play made sense in mobile, for example. These are all things that work in other platforms. But is there something that leverages the blockchain, for example, but if there is a marketplace of goods that people are trading and every good is uniquely identifiable and there's a limited supply of them, that you essentially create virtual economies potentially inside of these games and these worlds.

And certain of the pricing models become actually more like real life. People might have jobs inside these games. They might be trading their time. Time becomes a new currency. It feels like we're still scratching the surface when we think of just subscriptions and free-to-play and our card because that's what worked in the old world. It might not be the thing to take it. top in the next wave of cloud-needed games?

Yeah. When I look around, it does seem like everyone in Stadia included is currently focused on being the Netflix of gaming with a model of some form of subscription and a number of content. And I think that's great. But I think the real killer app for gaming and the cloud, gaming in particular, is becoming the YouTube of gaming. I think if you look at what I believe the history of the internet is, you had the internet of text. Now there's the internet of video and Obviously, TikTok, one of the latest examples. Kids go to YouTube to search now rather than other search engines. They rather watch a 10-minute video than read a two-minute text.

That's the way people process now. And I think the future is the Internet of Experiences. And I do think the cloud-native gaming and something like the vision of the YouTube of gaming is going to enable that Internet of experiences. Do you think that in this environment where people can just click the plane, Do you feel that fundamentally changes the types of games that we'll have, like the design playbook might also change to accommodate people being able to come in and out of games much more easily?

Absolutely. What we started to see in game development vocabulary is time to fun, becoming an important thing. It used to be fine to have, you know, these really long intros and cut scenes and then make people go through all of this character customization before they even knew what they were customizing their character for. And I think the new best practice, and it's not so new because I've been talking about this now probably for the last five to ten years, is how do we shorten that time to fun? And with this instant play and with the click to play, that's going to become more and more

important. And instant games, it also seems to be in the verge of having a comeback, you know, the concept of each TMR5 browser games. There were a bunch of IEO games that have recently reached hundreds of millions of people playing. And this has been around for quite some time, right? You have things like Slitter.I.O, like that snake game where you're trying to eat other snakes in a browser. But it feels like today, there's so many social channels that are just virally propagating these links. So you have people sharing on Discord.

You have people sharing on YouTube. Things are going viral over like Twitter and Reddit. And so, and games seems to be something which is adjacent to cloud gaming and maybe they merge in some way. I've thought about the same thing. And I think that's evidence of the appeal. of cloud gaming and the instant access because that time to fund metric is so important. And so how do we now deliver that for the HD experience? Really thinking about different entry points and scaling those for different people. Well, so you mentioned that you're experimenting with

Click to Play. The space, of course, is growing increasingly competitive. You've got PlayStation Now, you've got G-Force, Microsoft X-Cloud. What is it that makes Google Stadia particularly equipped to be out in front of the cloud gaming trend. When you think about the Google Assistant, I don't know if you've had this experience, but it was quite an experience for me. I was with my mom hanging out in L.A. I looked up on Google, place to go have sushi,

and I just hit what I thought was the reservation interface. And when we got to the restaurant, a person there said, oh, where's your father? It was just me and my mom. And I was like, what are you talking about? Oh, the really nice man who made the reservation. And then I realized that it was a Google assistant made the reservation for us. And it was such a natural and friendly conversation that the person who took the reservation didn't realize it.

And that kind of power inside a game character just unlocks a whole new level of immersion and storytelling that's really exciting. I mean, I love MMOs. Obviously, a lot of my work has been in action-adventure games where story is a big part of it. And so to unlock that storytelling capacity and realistic, believable characters is just super exciting for game developers. Talk to me about how that unlocks this next level storytelling. How does it differ from the current crop of world building games? Typically, when you go talk to, they're called NPCs in games, non-player characters,

there's a certain set of canned answers or things that that character will be able to say. and that's limited by how many options that a writer can write in terms of believable script and then how many lines you can record with an actor and all of those things have limits. So the experience that you have as a gamer coming in this is the characters that you encounter, well, they'll often repeat the same thing to you multiple times if you go back. There's no adjustment to those things. And so with these kind of AI models that we have, we could put some basic objectives and behaviors inside the A.A. models and then they can respond

to things that you've done in a game in a realistic way. As you were saying that I was thinking of Assassin's Creed and, you know, how in an Assassin's Creed world you have so many MPCs just milling around and the concept of having each of those MPCs be controlled by an AI that remembers what the last thing you did was the last time you've spoken of them. Maybe they've heard from their neighbors of the things that you've done in far-off cities and then they react that. dynamically. That just feels really mind-blowing in terms of the next evolution of these virtual worlds or just these open world games. It makes complete sense in terms of making these experiences more lifelike if you robbed the store last week and then you come back inside that store today

where people should react differently, right? Like maybe they're scared of you. Absolutely. And even better, a wanted poster of you should be on the wall. Right. That way, like, the world feels dynamic. It's reacting to the things that you do. It's not that similar from the Westworld, for example, that each year show where you come in and begins to adapt to the choices that you make as a character. I think that's one of the ultimate dreams is creating that kind of experience, and we're on the verge of being able to do that kind of thing. We certainly are there in terms of graphics fidelity, and those are the types of things that Wave 2 of Cloud Gaming unlocks is you can have distributed physics across the

cloud, so there's no more limitations now on how that behaves, which creates a ton of emergent gameplay, but also just the dynamic weather and the persistence in a world and having that kind of recognition. I don't know if you remember the nemesis system that was introduced a few years ago and was hugely popular. We can imagine what's the next-gen version of a nemesis system where there is memory from all kinds of characters. And we take the limits off of that as well. I want to talk about using AI not only as a creation tool, but also in terms of identity, how does AI also enable you to more fully express yourself within these game worlds? We're in the age of self-expression, whether we're talking about a game as a social platform or traditional social platforms,

are all about sharing something about ourselves. We all want to share who we are with the world and get recognition for that. Even if you think about the trends in fashion, people want to go to Nike to design their own shoes. Everyone wants to put their stamp on things. And so I really think the more that we can create these tools that help people express themselves and share something about themselves, the stronger and more sticky and more enriching really that interaction is going to be. And I think there were the beginnings of this when you think about Left for Dead and the AI director pacing the game and understanding what makes a game fun and the ups and downs, well, what can we do in terms of AI directors on a global scale to create that fun and also

to personalize that as well? So maybe my version of a great game is action, action, action, all the time. And Jonathan prefers to grow some vegetables or whatever and go collect some ore and craft. I don't know what kind of player you are, but the AI director could personalize that as well. To your point, if you've watched the movie Iron Man, I've always thought. But what was the best part of Ironman, like the most valuable asset is not the Ironman suit. It's actually Jiveus, the AI, which helps Tony Stark create that suit. Because in that movie, Tony just tells Jervis design that he wants, right?

It's like, hey, I want a suit that's made of titanium and put the flux capacitors into this. And then Jiveus figures out how to actually make it. He goes and gets the materials and he 3D funnels it. And so having Jervis in our world, some sort of AI, or set of creator tools or someone can just focus on what they want. It would be game changing in terms of enabling storytellers to spend more time being creative, thinking on design versus the minutia of implementation, which is still very important, but it's where the bulk of time and money goes right now in game development,

as opposed to sort of that early brainstorming design and conception phase. And then how do we use AI to amplify the talents that players have? So maybe I'm not great at drawing or painting or I don't know how to 3D model or program, but I can, through natural language processing, describe what I want. We can use machine learning to create the 3D rendition of that and amplify what I set, which I think would be incredibly fulfilling experience and a way for people to share who they are beyond just avatars, but really could create a whole environment that represents them that they can share with people.

I think it's the ultimate form of the democratization of content creation, the idea that anyone can become a creator to help us the AI or the suite of AI assistance tools. And I think it also might be a requirement for building something like the YouTube for gaming, because in order to have enough of a content library, that you can have something like YouTube, you need more creators out there than just a number of full-time professional developers that are making these games inside big companies.

Yeah, I'm talking about. some of the challenges of building cloud native games, it takes a really long time and it's really expensive to build out some of these content libraries, right? So is the answer to that then the concurrent rise of user-generated content and AI? I do think so. Ultimately, I think that's how we're going to get the best content as well. Maybe that's actually the path to the metaverse that people talk about, but it happens piecemeal with everyone creating content as opposed to any one single company professionally creating this huge virtual world that people go in. It's actually the entire world working together with an AI to create that metaverse.

And I do think when we were talking about the killer feature of cloud native, the fact that we're landing on UDC as being a big part of it is really, I think, key here, not only because people want to express themselves and share an identity, but also that's from a technical standpoint, something that really hasn't been possible before, because how do you constantly update a world? How do you keep things updated? I've created my part, and then how is that reflected in your game if I want to share it? So all of this happening on the cloud obviously makes those things that were impossible before, especially on mobile, to be shared experiences and shared worlds. So what are some of those social capabilities that the cloud enables

that maybe we haven't seen yet. What does that look like? It feels like when people think about social and cloud gaming, I think the first thing that they gravitate toward is a removal of concurrency caps on player accounts within multiplayer games. And so just using that Fortnite as an example. Fortnite is a cutting-edge piece of software,

but it's still limited to just 100 players in an instance. A lot of apps is limited by what your client side processing is capable of keeping track of and rendering. And so a lot of folks are excited about cloud gaming because they think of, oh, well, what have you had a 1,000-person battle royale or 1 million-person battle royale that took place over days, if not weeks? And so this feels like the first activation of what folks think of when you think of next-gen social in cloud gaming.

Yeah, should it be that big? Should we be having 1,000-person battle royals? I'm not convinced that 1,000-person battle royals are going to be the best thing. I think an MMO could be a place where the more people, the better. So I'm going to get into a bit of theory here about network design, because this is where I really see the best answer to your question. If you think about a network where people are the nodes and the connections or the links between a network are the interactions. Typically, networks with a lot of weak links in network theory grow much bigger. So for example, that's why

you'll have more people following you on a Twitter than a Facebook. Those are much lighter ways to interact. And so when we think about cloud gaming and designing the IPs of the future, I think it's leveraging all of those different types of interaction. So we talked about a lot of very deep links of interaction, right? That's me creating maybe my own world where other people come join me. That's a very involved thing. And if you think, let's say we're making a shooter game, actually being the person who has a controller or is playing on mouse and keyboard, that's also a pretty deep connection.

On the other end of it, you have the watchers who are now, for the most part, even with live streaming disconnected, sometimes there's chatting and impacting it. But that's a light connection that we're starting to see, but only through text, the impact bleeding through. And I think the really exciting thing about when you think about what cloud gaming wave 2 opens up is that full spectrum of interaction, which means that you can really grow an IP or a platform or a social network to be a much more powerful network because you can enable those light ways of interaction. So what is the benefit of that lighter touch? It's accessibility.

It's accommodating different ways of play for different moods as well, probably when I've carved out two hours to be in front of my TV and I really want to be immersed. I'm looking for one experience when I'm on my phone standing in line somewhere. I want a different type of experience. So it's both to address mood but also accessibility. I think a good example of this is when you think about the Star Wars franchise. It's a great model of an IP that's an entertainment network because I can just get a little Yoda sticker and I'm somehow involved, but that's a very lightweight way to be involved, right?

All the way to be, I could be creating fan fiction within the franchise. Ultimately, the benefit of that for players is that I can feel included, no matter what my devices, my skill level, my time availability, I can participate. I don't have to feel like I'm left out

from my friends who are gaming or left out of the experience. And I think from the point of view of creators, you can reach a lot more people, and create much more rich experiences. Regardless of what device you run, what mood you're in, your gameplay experience should be able to adapt

to your personal setting and your desires and moods and device. And I think that's only made possible with something like a cloud-needed game that lives in the internet that has access to all of the data on you, where you are, what device you run. If you combine that with something like the AI director,

it ensures that everyone has their own personal journey under entering a world or a game and that it's a good experience as well. I also read your article talking about people coming back to play D&D. You know, there aren't very many great DMs in the world. And maybe that limits the amount of people who can enjoy that kind of story. So that's something that an AI director could be taught to do and learn. And actually, we could probably through ML create the best DMs on the planet, right, could learn what's most entertaining, what makes it.

a great story and how to react on the fly to people's reactions. I think that that could be crowdsourced somehow. I think it opens up the audience, potentially way, way, way more massively than it is now, right? We actually have to find someone physically to come over into the DM again. Yeah, and what you're talking about really is also the magic that makes that experience personal and worth sharing, right? And worth sharing is a term that we use a lot as a guiding direction with our game

dev team, either sharing in the moment with multiple people or it's so personal and so unique that it's worth sharing even if it's a single player experience. Because if my version of the experience is exactly yours, then there's no point in me sharing it with you. You're going to say, yeah, I got through that level. Maybe it was slightly different, but it's more or less the same. The more we can enable these experiences, the more personal they are to you, therefore more meaningful and more engaging, but the more also they're worth sharing. One of the unique things about video games as well is that it's one of the only forms of entertainment that dynamically generates video as it's consumed. If you listen to music, that's not the case. If you read a book, that's not the case

that you're just consuming it. But in video games, the active plane generates clips that can be shared virally over Reddit and Twitch and YouTube and so on. And so this is really leaning into just the unique strengths of the medium as a video generator as well, which to your point is immensely shareable. And then all kinds of things can have different effects as well on that video generation, which means that my particular experience is not only me and personalized, but then the moment in time and how everyone else interacted with it then, too. Do you feel that that unlocks more interactivity between players who haven't interacted before? Does it open up the experience to more spontaneous interactions among strangers as it becomes bigger and as it becomes more open? If you think

about how we actually socialize in the real world pre-pandemic, it's common for you to just say to a friend, hey, let's meet up at a bar or at a shopping mall, and then you meet up with them, and you don't necessarily have this agenda that's planned out, right? It's more like we're going to meet up at the mall, and then we're just going to hang out and wander around. Maybe we'll meet some people, and then we'll go home and dinner. What is the digital equivalent of that? People point to video games, but then the reality is that most video games today are very purposeful. It's like I will call you up in Discord and say, hey, like, let's go play Baldur's Gate 3. And then we'll meet up and then we'll play Baldur's Gate 3 for two hours and then we'll return.

In a cloud-nated gaming world, is it possible to have the dominant social modality actually shift closer to what it's like in the real world? Or I'm just saying the Jade, let's go to XYZ place, you know, the YouTube games, for example. And then we'll just wander, but it's not planned out. It's not purposeful. think that's the vision of the Metaverse that many of us have been wanting to see coming for years. I actually was at a startup in 2000 that was trying to make the Metaverse back in the first.com boom. It is one of those things that finally you can see happening now with cloud gaming. You don't have to worry about the downloads.

You don't have to worry about the load times. You don't have to worry about the simulation or the processing power of the device that you're on. and you could have that experience of either it's just hanging out and wandering with a really smart, personalized playlist for you and your friend, or you could maybe input your mood at the time and the playlist could be adapted. Oh, the other time they were in the mood for that, this is kind of the type of thing that they liked experiencing. That's the holy grail of where we get to at some point. Jade, you mentioned you were at a startup trying to build this vision back in 2000. A question for both of you is, why is that concept,

of cloud native gaming, so daunting. What are some of the challenges developers face today when building cloud native games? My guess is that the first attempts of make cloud native games, you don't actually know what's going to work with your sort of experimenting in this giant gray box. And so talking to folks early on,

like last year on Stadio first launched, I think a lot of developers are very excited about bigger, let's make 1,000-person battle reels, and they were very excited about possibility of making ultra-realistic graphics. Okay, we're going to make characters that are so realistic. You can see like every hair on their face, powered by racks of supercomputers.

And the fallacy of all this is that there's taking what worked in the last paradigm, which is console generations where you have more and more powerful hardware and that enables better graphics and enables more people to play together and they're just applying that to the cloud. But what they're not getting is that the stuff that's actually going to be unique to the cloud is actually a complete reimagination. of these paradigms of gaming, but it's taken a while to figure that out.

That's something that has kind of run through this whole conversation is we talk about how we're in phase one of cloud native gaming, we're reaching for phase two. John, I remember in your post you said you thought we'd see the first cloud native games hit the market in, I think, two or three years. That was a year ago.

How far out are we from that vision? It feels like we're still early. People are experimenting, and I'm excited to see the first games. Hit the mic and hopefully the next year appear. Yeah, I don't think of it as being like, bam, we're going to be in Wave 2 and we're all going to be like, whoa, I think we're going to slowly see the cloud native features be introduced and realize we're kind of going to have these different little moments of epiphany, like,

oh, okay, I get it. That's cool. That really changes things. I think we're starting to see some of those things now, some of the features that we've integrated with YouTube in terms of crowd play and crowd choice. You can be. queuing to play or comment on and impact the creator, streamers game. That's starting to do some cloud interaction and bleeding into the wave one. We're going to start to see the games with procedural generation or a physics simulation or number of players that are going to be 10xing what's possible on local hardware, probably in the two or so year range.

I think if someone was going to say, we're going after the Westworld vision, that's probably a six-year vision to deliver, I'd say. with a lot of resources. I mean, that's actually a little scary six years to Westworld. That's... Well, it would maybe be a janky Westworld. I can't wait. 5G is being deployed globally right now.

I think that's also extremely exciting for the potential impact on mobile gaming because you can essentially now stream 10 ADP HD quality video to your phone as you're commuting, as you're jogging, as you're waiting in line for your sandwich. I think that opens up a whole new world. following on to your point jade so what is your vision for the gaming landscape then in five years how do we see this evolving and what trends are emerging that we anticipate becoming more influential in the space it really is games as the new social platform that's number one more and more we're seeing the needs

of players as a game as my place to hang out right it's not just my entertainment it's my loved pastime it's my subculture, it's the identity of my community with those needs. How do we deliver something that wasn't possible before? I've never worked at Nintendo, but I do feel that looking at their approach to creating new hardware from an outside observer's opinion, it seems like they take a really user-first needs approach. Okay, you know, we recognize a need for the family to have a past time to do together. Families have fun when they get to move, right? And that's when the weed gets designed

and a whole suite of games that sold really well and out did the conventional thinking of we just want more processing power or whatever. And I think the proof point is something we talked about earlier, which is among us being the big hit, fall guys being a big hit. Like now we're in this really exciting year

where all of these big hits are coming from these small indie developers, you know, three people or new teams, and it shows that people on the pulse of what the new generation of gamers want are really going to be able to make the things that are most meaningful. It also feels like in games

has been an acceleration of new hits. Fortnite was a hit back in 2018, and then before Fortnite, I think the last big hit that reached a similar level of scale was probably Pokemon Go, and that was like, 2015 or 16. So there was like two or three years between those hits. But if you look at what's happened over the last year, we've had three, four major hits that have had tens of millions

of people playing. Four guys, among us, there was Apex Legends and the whole auto chess phenomenon that came out last year. Yeah, it's part of games really being part of pop culture now. I think that's a fundamental shift that's happened as well, whereas that was always the case with music, for example, right? Like, if you want to be cool with your group of friends, like, you had to know about the latest rap track, the latest K-pop band, and games are so widely played by everyone now, especially in the younger generations, that you also need this as social currency. If you're a creator, obviously, you needed a social currency to stay on the edge of being in the know. But even as a player, you need to talk about that. And so it's really

an interesting phenomenon shift when a medium goes from being for core to being something that everyone cares about. I think what struck me the most about Amongus was just the diversity of people playing it and also tweeting about it on social media. You have older folks that you wouldn't nearly identify as gamers, you know, my wife is a big band of Amangas and she plays it bi-weekly with that, a circle of moms where the event about their kids while playing Amongas, for example, right? a sure diversity of these people who are now gamers, I think it's an inflection point

for the industry. It's no longer just little kids playing in their basements, government's gamer. Yeah, and that's exciting to be because I do have stereotypical core gamer tastes. I do like good action game and stuff

personally, but I'm very excited about being able to make games for different audiences and also amplifying the voices of new creators with different perspectives. And so hopefully there will be a game made, especially for moms who want events about their kids in school, playing in the background,

right? Cool. Let's not forget that we also have concerts and birthday parties and coordinating Roblox. It's at the beginning of a new wave of virtual events where there are actually events that are better held in the virtual world than in real life. What are the other events that might spawn from the similar concept? Is it political fundraisers? Is it schools? Absolutely. I think the whole area of events and performance and what that means virtually, live, real-time performance is really, really exciting. I also think there are certain ways that virtual can unlock things in a better way. I mean, we always think about the downsides, but there's also a lot of benefits to doing things virtually. I think as we think of the new constraints or some of the

constraints that we have in the world and spending more of our time on screens or in virtual social environments, there are ways to think, okay, maybe a virtual concept or virtual performance or a virtual class can be even more fulfilling. To be determined. Well, thank you both so much for joining us on the A16C podcast. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you, Lauren. It's been great. Thank you.