a16z Podcast - What We Can't Reveal We Can't Heal

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

Given recent events around George Floyd and far beyond, this special episode of the a16z Podcast features Shaka Senghor, a leading advocate for criminal justice reform (and bestselling author), and Terry Brown, a former police officer in East Palo Alto (who has since run his own security firms) -- who, incidentally, both grew up in Detroit but ended up on different sides of the law -- in conversation with a16z co-founder Ben Horowitz.The conversation goes deep and on the ground (please note that the discussion also includes details of violence, in case you have young children listening). 

Today's episode of the A6 and Z podcast is a special episode given recent protests around George Floyd and well beyond and is hosted by Andreessen Horowitz co-founder Ben Horowitz in conversation with Shaka Sengor and Terry Brown. Bren shares more details about our guests in the introduction that follows, and they spend the first few minutes also discussing their backgrounds before going into a deep and nuanced discussion. Please be aware that the conversation includes details of violence in case you have young children listening. The first voice you'll hear after Ben's will be Shaka's, followed by Terry's. Please also note that his sound improves after the first few minutes. Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us. I think this is one of the most important conversations we can have right now. Everybody is super emotional about the goings on in the world, but we've been

talking about really, really difficult, important issues at a very high surface level. We're going to change that with this conversation. We're going to get very deep with the experts who know what's going on at the ground level. And my two guests today are, first of all, Shaka Sengor, who has touched every part of the criminal justice system in one form or another from the police to holding cells to solitary confinement. and understands what it is to be on that side of police. And my other guest is Terry Brown, who spent many years as a police officer in East Palo Alto, protecting the citizens there against some of the toughest criminals in the country.

At the time he was policing, East Palo Alto was the murder capital of the United States, and thanks to very specifically Terry's work, that murder rate was reduced by 90%. So we've got two great guests here to get started. And let me first say, Shaka, could you kind of give us your full background and then just kind of give us some of your perspective about what it meant to be an African-American growing up in Detroit

with that culture and the corresponding police culture? Yeah, thanks. Good morning, fellas. Really great to be on this call. and really talk about what's going on in the country. So just contextally, you know, I grew up in the city of Detroit. I grew up in a household where, you know, was faced with, you know, abuse, my mother and my father being complacent in that. And, you know, when I was about 14 years old,

I decided to run away and thinking, you know, at that time that someone would see this smart, you know, honor roll scholarship kid and, you know, welcome me into their home and raise me with love and care that I think are children not deserving of. Now, unfortunately, I found myself being seduced into the drug culture. This was when crack cocaine first hit the Midwest around 1986. And within the first six months of being in that culture, my life completely changed.

You know, my childhood friend was murdered. I was robbed at gunpoint. I was beaten nearly to death. And despite those things, I found myself unable to navigate my way out of the culture. And when I was 17 years old, I got shot multiple times, standing on the corner. on my block on the west side of Detroit. And 16 months later, I found myself on the other side of the gun, you know, and I shot and tragically caused a man's death after an argument over a drug deal that I refused to make.

I was subsequently arrested, charged with open murder, and sentenced to 17 and 40 years in prison for second degree murder. When I went in prison, I, you know, honestly, I was angry. I was frustrated. I was, you know, all the things you can imagine a 19-year-old kid being, when the reality of a poor decision confronts that part of my life. And so I entered prison, got into a whole bunch of trouble early on. My first five years in prison, I accumulated about 25 misconducts. I had my security level increase from up to maximum security where I was on 23-hour lockdown.

But I was fortunate, you know, I met some incredible mentors during that time that guided me to books. And that was kind of like the beginning stages of me reimagining my, imagining my life. But it was a long, it took a long time, you know, and eight years into my sentence, I got into a conflict with a correctional officer. And that conflict escalated relatively quickly through a fight. And, you know, I ended up beating him and this officer ended up having to be rushed to the hospital. I was taking a solitary confinement where I remained for the next four and a half years. And so that was 23-hour lockdown in about a six-by-nine cell, one hour out in the wreck cage, which is basically the equivalent of a dog kennel, and three hours,

three hours a week, three 10 minutes showers a week. And that was pretty much my life for four and a half years, you know, and it shaped a lot of who I am today in regards to just what I chose to do while I was in that environment. Fast forward, got out of solitary in 2004, and prepared for the next, what I thought would be four years of working to get out of prison, but it ended up being another six years. And so 2010, this month, actually, 2010, I was released from prison at the total of 19 years, the total of seven years in solitary confinement. And so, you know, a lot of what we're seeing right now in the country, I've witnessed,

I've experienced it, you know, I've been arrested for doing the wrong things. I've been beat by police for not doing anything at all. And so it's something that's played a significant role in my life, in my family, in my community. You know, the level of abuse in policing in Detroit was unbelievable, you know, just, you know, now looking back as an adult and as a father of a son. But I think there was just a lot of deeper cultural implications that allow a lot of these things to take place. And then just some systemic things that was happening. I mean, you know, I was born a few years after Detroit came out of one of the worst riots in American history. And that riot was based on some of the abuses that was happening back then.

So it's not shocking that we're seeing some of the civil unrest right now. But growing up with it, you know, and I talked to the men and my family and the guys I grew up with, really, every one of us have been, you know, accosted, roughed up, choked, slammed on the hood when we were actually doing nothing. I mean, there's been times I've done a lot of things and got arrested, but also, you know, there was a lot of ass kickings handed out just for being in the neighborhood and them pulling up a lot of things. on the block. Thank you. It really sets a tone for the conversation. And amazingly, Terry, where did you grow up? I know the answer. Amazingly, Detroit as well on the west side. At about the same time. Yeah, I'm a little before Shaka. I'm obviously a 70s product. I grew up in a two family, two parents household. So, you know, I had some real good experiences, family experiences.

But once you step outside of the home, you're privy to some of the things that Detroit has to offer. I gravitated towards sports, played football and basketball. But you still weren't removed from dealing with Detroit BD. When I was going to Detroit, we had the Big Four. And the Big Four, these were the Knuckle Dragons. These guys are six, four, six, five, six, two hundred fifty pounds. And they just wreaked havoc on the city of Detroit. And, you know, there have been experiences where I was in junior high school, going far back to junior high school.

And Big Four rolled up on us. We were sitting out on the corner. One of my friends was smoking. And the guy, one of the guys, one of the police officers said, told him he was too fucking young to be smoking. and took the cigarette out of his hand. When you took it out of his hand, he broke his finger. So, you know, those are the things that we had to deal with.

You know, you just, I mean, Detroit, growing up for me, I just never talked to the police. If the police came around, I was out, you know. And either you were going to be around, you were the slower one, or you were the fast one to get away. And, you know, I was always the fast one to get away. But like I said, I gravitated towards sports,

and I tried to stay out of the streets. as much as I can or as I could at that time. But, you know, when I look back and I see these types of things, you know, like Shaka said, you know, I've been through two riots in Detroit. And a guy that I grew up with in my neighborhood, his death sparked the riot. It wasn't by the hands of Detroit PD, but it was by the hands of someone else. And it just sparked a riot in our neighborhood. And you just knew Marshall Law was coming.

You just knew to stay out of the street because Detroit PD just had a reputation of not even asking questions, not trying to serve and protect. They were going to rehab and kick your ass and possibly kill you. So, Terry, after kind of those experiences growing up with those kinds of police, what made you want to, you know, go into law enforcement? You know, it really wasn't anything honorable. My brother came back. I was working for a company when I was living in San Jose. And I was just kind of tired of doing what I was doing. I was working in accounting.

My brother, he took the test for law enforcement. Not really, I don't really know why he did, but he came back and said, you know, hey, he just came back from taking the police test. and he thought that I should go and do it. And my brothers always have this thing with me. I grew up fighting a lot. He told me about, you know, taking a test, and I sat there and I thought about it. I said, wow, I'm sitting in a chair eight, ten hours a day.

I said, I can actually get into some physical activity and not be arrested for it. I was 22 years old. And again, I didn't really have a lot of interaction with police officers. So I knew that it was a physical activity type of profession, and I said, hmm, let me go take the test. I took a test and pass. And I started my career off in the jails in Santa Clara County, where at one part, you know, they don't like to, you know, say this, but I was a part of the groom squad.

I started lifting weights at that point and got bigger and, you know, young, big, strong. and thought, you know, that I could take on the world. But, you know, even then I realized that I had a connection with people that were locked up. And I think the connection at that point for me was they look like me, you know. And so, but it wasn't until I got to East Palo Alto that I started to realize that a community like East Paul Alto, I was vested in because it wasn't a them birth of me or us type of thing. as far as I was concerned, it was, you know, wow, this is me. You know, this is who I am. When I look at them, I see me.

And so you start to deal with people differently at that point and not the way that they trained you to deal with people. When I became a deputy sheriff, the biggest thing as a jailer was don't let them know your first name. Don't let them know that you're married. Don't let them know you have kids because they'll use that again. When I got to East Palo Alto, it wasn't a Dem versus me. I was already mentally, emotionally investing in the community.

So I was there really in its truest sense to serve that community. And so I policed differently. You know, that didn't resonate well with some of your, you know, my peers. But at the same time, it really couldn't say shit to me, you know, because I had a volatile mentality. You got something to say to me, and, you know, we don't handle it. You know, so I was a little different. You know what's interesting about hearing that is, so two things.

One, the Goon Squad, you know, here it is. You're way on the West Coast, and there's a goon squad in the jail. And in Wayne County Jail in Detroit, the Goon Squad. And basically, you know, that was a squad that came in, busting heads, kicking ass, you know, for small things, even just first going through the jail, it's like, yo, I'm already arrested. You don't have to brutalize me, but that's part

of the culture. But the other thing you said, it really resonated with me is like being able to see yourself in people you were meeting at their worst moment. And I remember every police encounter I've ever had, both good and bad. But I remember this one time

I got arrested, you know, and it was a young black police officer. And I remember him just He arrested me, put me in the handcuffs, put me in the back of the car, and then he took the handcuffs off me. And he was like, you know, you got a future that's bright. It's all about the decisions you make. And I never forgot what that felt like for him to actually see, you know, that I was really a kid, you know, and that I wasn't this thread and I wasn't somebody that should be getting roughed up.

I was actually somebody that needed guidance. You know, and unfortunately, it wasn't able to stay connected because of the reasons you name, You know, you can't get their first name and their, you know, phone number and all those different things. But I remember how that made me feel. And so that's one of the things that sticks with me to this day when I'm working and saw these problems that I have met officers who actually come from the communities that they police and actually care about people. And so I know that there's different narratives and unfortunately, they just get swallowed up. Yeah, it's interesting because I think that, you know, when I look at my peers, so on one hand, You have, you know, black officers.

On one hand, you have white officers. And the black officers typically did come from, you know, the community. Interesting enough for me, I lived in East Paul Alto some of those years that I worked there. So the guys on the streets that I was dealing with, they knew where I lived. As a matter of fact, I can even go back to a scenario where one guy was one of the biggest dope dealers in East Paul Alto. So he asked me to go on a cruise with him. And I told him, I said, hey, I can't go on a cruise with me. First of all, I knew that he was under federal indictment, too.

I mean, he was about to get arrested, you know? Yeah. So I said, hey, Mike, I can't go on a cruise with you. You know, but I think that's how, that's the light that they saw me in. And so I just wanted to be someone that they could call on if they needed help. And Shaka, you said something that was interesting. And I've always believed that I came into people's lives at the point in time when they really needed it, where they're their most vulnerable. And so whether either I was arresting them or they were a victim of someone or some group and I was there to help.

So, you know, the interesting thing about this, Terry, and I know, so, you know, for those of you listening, Terry's still friends with the other side who were on the crime. side when he was a police officer. So that's how long those relationships go. But here is the interesting thing. The police are trained in this one way that you described to be kind of the enemy of the kind of people you're going after and not give them your name or, you know, your address or all these kinds of things. But you ended up being the most effect. Like when East Pole Alta had the big crime problem, you, the one who went against the training were the one who solved it. Like, how did that work? How did that unfold?

So part of when I was in East Paul Alta, I was a homicide detective. And so, like you said, Ben, in 1992, we were the murder capital, you know, in the U.S. And so, but by that time, I had already developed relationships with people. So in developing those relationships, you develop trust. And, you know, a lot of times those guys would call me or come to me and say, hey, are you looking for me? is there a problem? And I would tell them. And they have a, you know, at that point,

they have an opportunity to either run or, you know, do what they do. But they got to remember your fast. Yeah, they just call, yeah, I had, one of the things I had was Roadrunner. But, you know, the thing is is that, you know, I understood relationships. And I understood that it wasn't them against us. And I understood that that's me. and how I, you know, how I treated people is how I want someone to treat my mother, how I want

someone to treat my brother, you know, on the street. And one of the things you constantly hear and right now with the protesting is we don't have a voice. And so I wanted to be that voice for people in the community in which I served. And I thought that that was important because I believe that some officers, mostly white officers, who weren't going to hear people. They saw people in East Palo Alto, who they dealt with as criminals, and they deal with criminals a certain way. One of the things I always said, drug dealers or whatnot on the street, those guys aren't stupid. They're not dumb. They make bad decisions, but some are really smart.

Ben, you know guys in Oakland who were... Very, very, very smart ran of a supreme criminal enterprise, you know? Yeah. Shock is one of the smartest people I know. Yeah. You know, it's easy for police to deal with people like that by saying that, you know, they're dumb and they're stupid because they're dope dealers. No. No.

Sometimes, you know, we just made bad mistakes as people and the brilliance get lost. in that. Yeah, I also think, you know, it's so many different layers to what happens and how people end up in the streets, you know, like I was an honor roll scholarship student. I got have been, you know, anything I dreamed of at that time with the right support structures and placing things of that nature. And I think it's important, but, you know, one of the things as you were talking, I was thinking about our childhood back in Detroit. You know, when I was growing up, I remember the idea that I had of police. And I thought it was like, you know, these were the heroes. These were superheroes. This was something that aspired for. They were, you know, doing

good in the community. And then something changed. And just culturally, everything changed. And it went from, you would see officers who would actually, you know, just be in the neighborhood and say, hi, you know, speak to your family by their last name, you know. And And then it went from that to this militarized, you know, way of engaging in the communities. And there was also at that time a lot of different cultural things happening in Detroit outside of the police. It was white flight where people were moving out of the communities. And you just saw this dramatic shift where the militarized approach to policing became the norm. You know, you see many tanks in the neighborhood during drug raids and, you know, people hopping out basically just like robocop.

And that mentality has dramatically changed policing, I think. I don't think that neighborhood community connection exists anymore. And I think that's part of what we're seeing around the country. You know, historically, when you look at law enforcement, what happened specifically, you know, with the riots in Detroit, the Watts riots and things of that nature, policing. Remember how people used to get out on the beat and walk the beats? After those riots, they retreated to the cars. So when you're walking, you're actively engaging people out in the community, whether it's the merchants, whether there's residents. You're engaging them constantly.

But what happened after the riots, they retreated to the cars. When you get that steel barrier around you, you kind of feel like you don't have to get out. You know, you're just riding around all day long and you're, you know, you're collecting your paycheck. And, you know, then you really get that them versus us type of mentality. because I don't have to engage you. If I engage you, I'm going to arrest you. You know, so I'm going to violate your civil, you know, your civil liberties and stuff. So the thing is, they retreat it.

And so there was no longer a relationship or bridge to that relationship, you know, being built or even being nurtured. You know, and you're talking, what, the 60s? So you're talking 30, 40, 50, 60 years later. And like you said, police uniforms are different now. They got all the military look with the high power rifles now. You know, when I came into law enforcement in 86, I had a six shooter. That was it. So now, you know, now they have some high power weapons.

Granted, the weapons on the street have changed. I get that, you know. But it's just the look. And if you have the look, but you don't have the relationships, that's a point. problem. If you have the look and no relationships, the people in the community no longer have a voice. If we didn't approach police in our day, and they didn't look like that, can you imagine what people want to? I mean, people don't want to approach police nowadays, you know, for fear of being killed. Well, let's talk about that a little bit. So in the black community, police are like

generally the enemy. There are viewed very negatively compared to. to sort of, you know, outside of the community? And how does that end up affecting the relationship? I think it has a dramatic effect. You know, when I think of like my experiences, even now, like, and I'm like, you know, I'm no longer in street culture and been far removed from that for over 30 years now, you know, the cultural reality is what we're seeing happening right now

is the culmination of over four decades of bad policing of black communities. And, you know, I just think about, I go home and I see a police car, unless it's like a black police who I actually know, but I know a lot of them now, you know, there's always that anxiety, you know, and it's deeply rooted in relationships of accountability, you know, and I tell people this all the time. Imagine you're getting roughed up, and then you're like, okay, I'm going to file a complaint. And then you've got to go to the same precinct that the officer works at and file a complaint

and expect some type of outcome and it's not. And so there's been so much distrust over the years. And then the violation of civil rights, like a part of that is culturally in a sense that I remember the first time I got assaulted by office. I was 14 years old. And, you know, I mean, I was in the wrong area. I was actually in the drug house, but it was no drugs. And so they raided the house. They didn't find anything.

So what they did is they kicked our ass because they didn't find anything. And then they kicked my ass, took me home. And culturally, this is also a problem within, you know, the family structure, at least my family structure, was my father's response to it was, if you would have been home, it wouldn't have happened. And part of that is kind of like this old school model of raising children in the community where any neighbor could rough you up and, you know, if they thought you were doing something wrong, they can drag you by the air home and things like that. And that also extended to the police. And so there was no complaint about, you know, from getting hit in my nuts at 14 years old by this damn police officer. And so not only did it create distrust for police, it also created distrust for my parents' ability to defend me when they were wrong. And what I think that we have done is even if we're suspected of doing something wrong, we get roughed up, it's victim blame.

It's kind of like, why were you on a corner? as opposed to why was the officer not, you know, honoring protocol and not honoring that, you know, you have civil rights to not be abused and right to due process. And so because that's been normalized in our community, what happened what we've seen was when Rodney King got beat on, you know, with this video, we're like, okay, now we got you all. Everybody can see it.

This is what we've been trying to tell y'all. And then literally years later, we're in the same exact situation. over and over again. And so it's not these, you know, one-off murders that's really driving what's happening. It's the accumulation of brutality that has been an accepted norm in these communities. And I promise you, you can, and this is what I always be wanting the news to do. It's like, go just talk to the guys in the hood and just ask them this question, how old were you the first time you got abused by police in your neighborhood? And I can guarantee you that, it's probably going to be at least 85% to 90% rate of young black men to be like,

yep, I've been choked, I've been kicked, I've been grabbed, I've been pulled over, you know, and so it's this idea that we don't have the same rights as people in other communities, and that's driving a lot of the anger and a fear. And Terry, like from your perspective, like what does that end up meaning on the police side when there's that level of distrust from the community for what you're doing when you're ostensibly trying to keep people safe. You know, it's also a lot tougher for a black officer than it is a white officer because there's a lot more expectations for us in doing our jobs, keeping a peace, and being that voice of reason and, you know, voice of strength,

standing up for, you know, against your, you know, your brothers in arms. I've been called every naming a book, you know, including Uncle Tom and stuff like that, because, you know, I was wearing a uniform. And they didn't know my background. You know, none of those guys knew where I came from or the environment that I came from a city like Detroit. But there's a lot of distrust by Shaka said, you know, I used to tell people all the time, people would come to me and say, you know, hey, you know, so-and-so did this to me, so-and-so said that to me. And, you know, and And I would tell them, well, go to the police station and file a complaint, okay? And they wouldn't.

But I told them, I said, you will file a complaint against me. And it's because we had a, they would. They was a relationship. They felt like, you know, I was just like them. So if they filed a complaint against me, it would be dealt with. But they wouldn't go file a complaint against that white officer. And I used to always tell them. That's like, to me, that's a form of slavery.

You know, you don't want to tell on Massa, but you want to tell on me, you know. And so, you know, it was really tough because there was a lot of expectations like we could, we as black officers could change the world, change the PD. And that was very difficult, you know, because police departments are very traditional. To get things change is almost an act of Congress, you know. And so, you know, just like anyone, you're trying to go there, do your job. Some people can try to keep their nose clean. Others, you know, like me, I was vocal. And so it made my tenure in law enforcement, you know, pretty rough sometimes, you know,

because I would speak up. But, yeah, to answer your question, Ben, there is no voice. There's a lot of mistrust. because of the behavior of law enforcement. And I don't care who you are. You've seen it. You've seen the differences in treatment. You've seen the case and point.

No one can ever tell me that possession of crack cocaine is worth more of a prison sentence than powder cocaine. All they do is put that 0.5 on there. And it tells everyone in the justice system that this person, you know, probably is black. So he's going to get, he or she is going to get more years than that person being charged with 11350 of the penal code, California penal code for your listeners. You know, but once you slap on that 11350.5, yeah, your sentence is going to be much higher. You're going to be dealt with more severely than a person who's in possession of a powder code. game. It's a whole system full of mistrust. It's disproportionate in terms of how you're dealt with. And then you're talking decades, centuries of misuse, abuse. And, you know, I don't know what the answer is. Sometimes

you think you may know the answer. But then something else happens and you realize, wow, they've taken it to a totally different level, you know? Yeah. Yes. It's, you know, one of the things I think a lot about, it's like the cultural understanding of what policing is in America is inaccurate. And, you know, what I found problematic is that when these incidents happen, it's like, and we know it, right? So when I was in prison, I watched officers start from like their first day in, right? In prison, they start off with a red tag, so that's the indication that they're, you know, this is their first few weeks. And you see these kids, and they're kids, they're young, they're coming in 19, 20 years old,

starting their career. And you see them come in as innocent kids, curious, you know, trying to figure it out. And they're aligned with an officer who works there, right? And so, and they get to basically roll with different officers. And you can, you watch them go from these innocent kids. And then they, the next phase is there. grain tag. This is their next phase. And now they're actually a higher correction officer and they're, you know, doing things on their own. But you just watched them get sucked into this culture and they begin to change and they begin to act like, you know, the rest of the culture. And it's just wild to witness that watch somebody go from an innocent kid who had these,

you know, probably dreams of doing good and making people safe to being corrupted by our culture that's so deeply rooted it's hard to even see outside of the culture. And so I think one of the things that happens in these instances, we're trying to address it as an individual person issue and when in reality, it's a cultural issue.

And if it wasn't a cultural issue, like George Floyd doesn't die that day because other officers that were present but stand up. They're not allowed it to say, hey, man, what the fuck are you doing? You know, you're overstepping the boundaries He's like, you don't, it's not necessary to arrest this man or detain him or whatever you're doing.

And so culturally, we just have a very bad, you know, a situation and, you know, the mistrust, the racial profiling, all those things feed the culture, but there's the militarization of the culture. You know, it's a lot of former veterans that are police officers, that are correctional officers, and used to being in war zones, you know, and to your point earlier, Terry, you're meeting people in their worst moment. and it's hard to make a real connection unless you come from that culture to understand a person in their worst moment, you know. And, you know, Ben and I, even we've had experiences where, you know, we're at a concert and we're backstage. Like, you know, in the chair, you know how... With credentials.

Credentials with, like, super credentials, not even just regular credentials. Yeah, like, that Kanye gave them us himself. Yeah, it's like personal. And, you know, I walked. Felicia to the bathroom, and I'm accosted by, you know, the security who come out of that culture, and I'm like, dude, I have all the credentials in the world. And they're like, no, blah, blah, and they escalated instead of just like being, hey, sir, like, let me see your credentials. And, you know, and I called Ben, I'm like, yo, bro, this situation is about to be bad. And then just from a

culture standpoint, their response to Ben was different, you know? And so like that, like that, Like, what does that do to a person? Like, obviously, I'm operating out of a different understanding, but 20 years ago, like, that's escalated to a full-on brawl, you know? And so it's just a cultural reality that is hard for people to break down when they're angry or frustrated or everything is seen through the lens of, you know, it's black versus white, and it's really not that cut and dry is deeper than that, you know? Yeah, that's very, very powerful.

Yeah. I think that, you know, it's interesting because, you know, we're told how to react, how to respond to abuse. And that's tough because if you're being discriminated against and you, you, in addition to that, you don't, you know you don't have a voice. So you know that things aren't going to change. So you know there's really, you know, ways you feel, you know, hopelessness. There's only one reaction. And that's the fight. That's the, it's beyond just lashing out is to actually fight because that fight is for survival. And so, you know, like you said, Chuck, when you look at George, he was fighting, you know, he he was crying out and you had three officers who were standing there knowing that this guy is hurting he's crying out and they stood by and watched the interesting thing that i saw from photographs and from the video in that particular situation was that he was not a first all he was handcuffed he was not a problem if he was a problem those other officers

would have engaged. So this guy is really, he's not, he's applying pain for no reason. You know, he's not applying pain to get this person under control. He's simply applying pain because he could. Yeah. And that's the thing that really

gets so many people so angry because you know exactly what it is when you've been in that situation. You know, I was talking earlier about, by my prison. and experience. And this is all, they're all part of the same kind of culture. And, you know, I remember this officer literally tried to break my arm. Unless it's like, Lily, man, didn't even having me beef. I got into a fight with a neighbor and got took to solitary. And when you go to

solitary, they put you in a shower cage and make you strip, but you're cuffed and you have to, and they have to take the cuffs off. And basically what happened is in the midst of me fighting this guy, one of the officers jumped on my back and I kind of slung him off my back. And So they was like, oh, that's a slot on staff. It wasn't like an intentional, like me beating him or whatever. And his colleague, when I got to solitary, he literally almost broke my arm, pulled it through the slot. And I still have those scars like Lily on my elbow, which I got, you know,

tatted over. But I never forgot what that felt like to have somebody, you know, abuse. And so when I ended up getting into the conflict with the officer that led to me going to solitary, like, again, it was him taking liberty. with my body, you know, and it's something that, you know, we dealt, we deal with so much in the community, being slammed on the hood of the trunk and being roughed up. And, you know, I asked this officer multiple times, like, don't put you, like, you're violating, and I'm explaining to it without working in the law library, like you were violating this police policy directive,

such and such. If you feel like I've done anything wrong, you're supposed to hit your personal protection device, call other staff. And he didn't do any of those things. Instead, he just kept escalating by, like, pushing his finger. in my chest and then I responded to that you know and I ended up beating them up really bad

and then I got sentenced to two more years and then time in solitary and that that sat with me for so long because I'm like I didn't escalate this thing I defended myself

but I'm the bad guy and I was labeled the bad guy and I dealt with the consequences of that which was two additional years added to my sentence in four and a half years in solitary you know time

that I could never get back, you know. And so I was angry about that for a long time. And it really took a lot of healing to understand that this was systemic. You know, this happens all the time. And the crazy thing about it, when I went to court, there were witnesses around who were afraid to come testify because they were afraid that they were going to be abused by the culture of officers in that environment. And even some of the officers who admitted to other people that they knew what happened was wrong and that this officer had a track record of doing these things, they wouldn't come testify because of the brotherhood of, you know, officers that forces them

to be silent when injustice is taking place, you know? And so, you know, what we're seeing over and over again is this reality played out. And one of the things men and I were talking about that I think is really super important. In my work, specifically, I've done a lot of work to really make the system transparent, let people see what actually is happening, that people aren't criminals, that people aren't thugs, they make choices that are criminal, but it's reasons that people are making these choices, but more importantly, how does the system work? And we live in a society where we fund, I mean, billions of dollars in corrections, policing, and then you ask the average citizen, like, how does the system really work, and they don't

knowing, that's problematic. There are officers on the streets who have tons of complaints filed against them, and those complaints get sealed, they get hidden, the community does not know, okay, these two officers, this officer has a perfect record, this officer has 30 complaints, so we need to be aware of what this officer's behavior has been since they've been in the force, and like, that's problematic. I'm sure that's not that officer's first time putting his knee in somebody's neck. It's just the first time it was caught on camera, and it's the first time that it, you know, ended with a fatality. But I promise you, when they get to go on the trial and they go through his records, there's going to be complaints that haven't

been revealed, that's been ignored. And like, we have to have more transparency if this thing is ever to be healed. Because you can only create trust when there's honesty, when there's realness. Whatever you don't reveal, you can't heal. And so until we had that transparency, we're always going to have a problem with policing in America. And Terry, you know actually, so what happens with a guy like that who does have a record of all these complaints and they never went after him? So, I mean, this guy who killed George Floyd had shot two other guys and had 18 complaints filed against him and nobody ever followed up. Why does that happen?

Well, I think, again, this whole thing starts at the top. You know, you can't tell me if he shot two other people that the chief is not aware of it. Why does that happen? At some point, you obviously have to pull this guy off the street because there's a problem with either his decision-making ability, certainly training. There's something missing there that warrants this guy not being on the street. But I think also, too, I was never in that type of culture. I saw one report where he had 19 misconduct complaints, you know, that's extreme. That is a problem there.

You know, he's a part of, you know, obviously good old boy system, but he's working for, he's working with his friends who are able to do that. I just think that there has to be some transparency with these types of things. You know, members in the community, members in a community on some sort of. of board when you have these misconduct complaints. So it's just not the police department. There's someone from the police department, is someone from the city or county,

and someone from the community. And that way, everything is out in the open, and you can't show them under the rug. But, you know, I agree with shock. Obviously, there has been a problem from quite some time. This wasn't his first rodeo. And I just,

to be honest to be, Ben, I don't know how stuff like that continues to get swept on the rug. In 2020, with all the stuff

that's going on, you know, it's crazy. I can't even comprehend that. You know, with all the cameras out there, with all the things that are going on,

all this is still doing these types of things. These are people who just they have no humanity. They had none. They're not there to serve the community at all. It's nothing about what they do and wearing that uniform and that badge. They're serving the community.

I saw a news report this morning where this cameraman was simply doing his job. And this officer, who I assume was part of the Secret Service uniform division, I mean, went in on his guy physically. And his partner grabbed him. And I think his partner had the wear of all that say, hey, wait a minute, hold on. We're in, we're doing this and having these problems because people are acting like you're acting right now. The culture is that strong. Yeah.

It's that strong and that and runs that deep. I mean, they just had the video with the, did you see the video with the, right now? Black woman officer and she had to snatch up one of her colleagues. It was like, what are you doing? Like, what the hell are you doing? You know, this is the thing. You talk to old people like me. Like I said, I went into law enforcement.

I went into the academy 86. The thing that I think about now versus when I was in law enforcement, and again, they had problems back then, of course. But one of the main problems I see now is lack experience. They lack training. And you have a younger culture in the police department now. So when I got to my assignment in 87, they had a guy who was there since 62, you know. So you had a difference in experience.

And, you know, you have people, you have veterans. I mean, I'm talking, you know, people have been there 30 years down to rookies. So you had the, you had people who can tell you, I had people who told me, hey, you can't do that. Don't take the debate on that, you know. Nowadays, if you look at police departments throughout the country, it's young agencies. They're out there policing our communities. Also, in addition to that, who don't live in our communities, in addition to that, they don't look like us. So there's a huge gap in who's actually there to serve us.

So let me get to, you know, kind of the most confusing, difficult part because we have so much emotion right now in the country. around this issue. And I think that emotion, you know, because it doesn't have a direction, is getting misdirected in a lot of ways. The most obvious way is, you know, the looting and like, let's increase crime against people who have nothing to do with this. So given it's such a hard, intractable problem that we've been living with for so long, it's a cultural problem. It's a systemic incentive problem. It's a training problem. You know, it's a problem of policing communities and culture that are foreign to them.

You know, for people listening to this, where's the right place to direct that energy? That's a great question. You know, I've watched the news over the last few days, and I've watched it shift from addressing the injustice to focusing on the looting, right? Yeah. And I've also seen the videos of these young kids who are coming into communities that they don't even live in and instigating the looting and instigating some of the vandalism and being held accountable. You know, and in Long Beach, there was a young white kid mask up. He's in there looting and tearing the building up and one of the, you know, older OGs was like, yo, you don't even live over here. Get from over here.

There was a young white girl who was spray paint and vandalizing the buildings. and then spray painting Black Lives Matter and she's being confronted by black women saying, listen, they're going to blame us for this. And the thing is like, that doesn't make the mainstream news, but what does make the mainstream news is people want to steal sneakers or whatever the case may be. And so the media is also complicit

and why people are so angry. Because it's like all this good is happening, these positive protests, these peaceful protests, you shift the focus from that, the majority. The majority of these protests have been peaceful. You shifted to that to a few scandalous shots of people running in out of buildings, and now we're having a whole different conversation. I have so many people like, oh my God, they're looting, you know, this is going to undermine everything. I'm like, no, you have to be willing to understand what the news's purpose

is. And the great thing is we have social media accounts that you can actually follow of people really on the ground that's doing peaceful protest that are walking arm and on with some officers. There's officers who are stepping up in leadership. There's community members who are stepping up in leadership. You know, and so I think part of what we have here in this country is a narrative situation and a proximity. You know, the narrative of black men and black women

in the media space has typically been either to entertain America or to be kind of like, you know, the thing that America could point to and say, see, these are criminals and thugs. And in the reality, these things are way more complex. So that reaction to what's happening. People are also not thinking that we're in a quarantine crisis and people have lost employment.

People do not have a means to take care of themselves. These jobs are shutting down. So I'm like, if we're going to focus on eluding, let's actually focus on the people who can't even work right now in those spaces because there's no jobs and really understanding what's happening. So, you know, it's like two-five, said, like, you know, people are hungry, like, you can't be surprised if they're going to, you know, steal something out of your garden and eat. It's a basic human the need is to take care of and provide. But to misdirect attention from what the real issues are, those core issues, like, that's kind of the safety mechanism, safety valve that the media has used forever to justify not dealing with the real shit. And until we deal with the real shit, we'll see this cycle repeat itself every few years. And at this point,

it can be every month from now because people are desperate. And, you know, with quarantine happening and, you know, these injustices happening, it's just a really volatile cocktail right now, you know. But we have to be real with what is actually seeing and being perceived. And that's not to say people have not been looting, but the narrative of how and who is not telling the whole story. And I think that's why social media has been so important. The technology has been so important.

Because now people can tell their own stories, you know. And even, and I'll say this last, on the actual protest part, you're seeing a hyperviolence that's being ordered. And I mean, we're in a country where the right to protest peacefully and assembled peacefully is a constitutional right. And we're watching that right be stripped from people right in front of our eyes. And we're casually okay with that. You know, and you know, I don't even get into the whole political conversation, but to see people peacefully protesting and the police just rust them like a football, like it literally looked like a football game where they're just like, the ball has been kicked off, go.

And like, how can the citizen feel safe when this is the reality that the people who are tax dollars fund are beating our ass because we're choosing the exercise of constitutional right? Same thing happened in California where we watch the police escalate and otherwise peaceful protests. And protests are inconvenient. That's the reality of what protests are and they're designed to be inconvenient, but they're not criminal and people shouldn't be being criminalized and treat it as if they're wrong for exercising their constitutional right. And that's what we're seeing. Go clear to these people out so I can take a photo out, holding an upside down Bible. Yeah. That's ridiculous.

A church, that's actually a social impact institution. Yeah, no, just to add to what Shaka is saying, you know, this is a thing. I think the media, I agree, is just as responsible because they're giving credence to these looters, these people that are causing all this destruction. And, you know, it's separate from the people who are rioting for a cause. The looters and the people who are breaking in stores, stealing sneakers, and things, They don't care about George Floyd. They don't care about Sandra Blans.

They don't care about the Michael Browns or Aubrey's or Brianna Taylor's. They don't care about that. It's not honoring their death. You know, it's not honoring their memory. But I think the writers, we as people, we need a voice. We need to be heard. And until that happens right now, you know, and people are probably not going to like this. But because of the people that's out there looting, because of people out there causing destruction, setting fires, those voices can't be heard because that's not the focus.

The focus is to preserve property and protect lives. So, you know, it's getting lost in the narrative of what the problem is or what we think the problem is. but at some point, you know, we have to, or the protesters, the people out there are going to have to police themselves. Those people are out there, they're doing those things. It's got to stop. It's got to stop. It makes no sense.

And like Shaka said, you know, you've got people who've been out because of the pandemic. Big part of it. The interesting thing is now they're able to go back to work, but now they can't because the store is burned down. Or they can't go to work because they can't get in to an, area where people are looting and doing all these destructive things. So, you know, again, sometimes we're our own worst enemies, but these voices aren't being heard. You know, and if the media or the journalists were to report on what the cause is, leave the bullshit

aside, then maybe that can start a conversation towards the process that will lead to some sort of reform. Because, I mean, there are so many things. We need police reform, prison reform, educational reform, economic reform. We need all those things. But it can't start if you're in this panic mode of protecting property and protecting people. Yes. It's also, again, I think so much of this is cultural, you know, when you think about how the media operates in this space, they're running toward the most salacious thing that they can find as opposed to talking about what's really happening. Like, there's a whole peaceful, you know, protests in Hollywood, you know.

And, you know, these are my friends. These are people who I know personally, and I'm watching their IG accounts. And you're seeing this beauty of humanity coming together and saying, hey, these things must stop. That doesn't get the same coverage as somebody breaking in the local liquor store. And, you know, even when we're talking about this leadership gap of voices being lifted up, part of the problem in America is that so much of our culture is driven by entertainment. And so specifically when it comes to black and brown people, when they say, okay, who's going to speak up about this?

They're turning to entertainers as opposed to the people who actually are organizers and people who are really invested in a community that's connected to what's happening on the ground. So we're waiting on, you know, P. Diddy to make a statement. We're waiting on people who, you know, and it's great that they are using their platforms and their voice. But these people aren't the ones who are actually in the street. They're not the ones who are organizing. We need to hear from those people and not just the person that's angry and you hurry up and grab that person because they're animated and compelling, but there's so much thoughtful leadership out in these communities that gets largely ignored because the focus would rather keep the narrative going that, oh, these people are criminal, therefore it justifies the treatment that you see happening. It's okay for officers to go in and busting heads because they're busting up buildings. And that narrative just makes things worse as opposed to actually dealing with what really happened.

And I mean, even in tough communities, I can tell you, as much criminal activity happened in Detroit, that was the minority compared to what really happens culturally. You know, it's one of those cities that it's a beautifully rich cultural city that has had some crime problems, but it's the minority compared to the actual people there. Absolutely. But instead, people like on that negative. And so, you know, transparency and policing is important. Accountability and media is super important. And even outside this issue, we see that the media will say the most salacious thing to get ratings at this point. But I think those two things are something that's going to have to change if we want to see a real societal change.

Terry, what's the biggest change that we could, maybe we have 10,000 police forces, across the United States, you know, if you were to say, like, what are the top things we could do to start to improve that? Improve what? Policing. Just the culture of policing. You know, just like we said earlier, there has to be some transparency. It has to be some transparency, but also, you know, police cultures, police organizations, they have to own their own shit. You know, that's the main thing. You can't hide behind it. You can't sort. sweep it away, you have to own it and understand that it's fucked up.

There's a lot of problems. So because there's a lot of problems, I mean, until you say, yes, we have a problem and make the discussions around those problems transparent is going to be the same. I mean, it'll go away, but it's going to come back. It's going to rear his ugly head again. So I think transparency, I think ownership, and I think you have to have different groups, whether black and brown, you have to have different groups to make up some sort of form so that everybody has a voice so that no stone is left on turn so that, you know, no one is abused or not heard. Because again, these riots that you see is because they don't have a voice. don't have a voice in our own communities, you know. So I think the biggest thing is transparency

and definitely ownership. I think we also got to lift up like the officers who have been leading like the right way. You know, I talk to the chief of police in Detroit, actually really incredible brother. And I've watched them work hand in hand with the community. You know, you see that all the time in a lot of these communities where there's actually officers who really are invested in the community. You know, we saw the sheriff in Flint, Michigan. He's like, yo, I'm coming out and I'm going to march and I'm going to walk with y'all. You know, so they know that there's a problem there.

You know, they know it's real. You know, they know it's a cultural disconnect. And I think those voices have to be lifted up in the conversations as well and really start figuring out, okay, how did they get, even in the midst of this culture, how do they learn to do what you said, you know, create relationships, police with intention. of doing good as opposed to policing with the intention of finding bad. And I think those are things that training, you know, can really help. But there has to be the right training.

Like, you know, we're in a world now where cultural diversity and includes in conversations are the safe words, but clearly they're not enough. We need something deeper and beyond that. And that's that accountability from the community, as you mentioned. You know, I think also, too, the interesting thing is, you know, part of the problem, is you have people who are policing a community that they really, they're not invested in, but they've never been a part of something like that. They've never seen it before.

So they have to be intentional about going out, talking to someone who doesn't look like them, talk like they talk, just like they dress, involved in the things that they're involved in culturally, get to know someone, get to know them, get to understand why this person thinks the way they think, do the things that they do. If you just go about your day and you're patrolling and you don't get to know anyone or get to understand, a white officer can't understand what it's like to be a black officer or a black man in America.

I get that. But you can make the effort to at least understand and hear me out, hear those candid conversations, and they're sometimes going to be tough conversations, but just hear me out. That's a start. And I agree with you, too shocking. You know, there are a lot of officers who are in the department every day, go to work and they try to do the best job that they can.

It may not always be right. It may not always look pretty, but they're doing the best they can. James Craig, I've known him since he was an officer in LAPD. You know, he actually grew up in Detroit on the west side, as a matter of fact. So, like you say, he's a good brother, tough job, of course, but I think he's up to the challenge. But I agree. I applaud the men and women who are out there in law enforcement who are doing their jobs every single day, the best they can do. They're, honestly, to serve the communities.

Let's close on that. Thank you both. Such important knowledge to be out there right now. So thank you, Shaka. Thank you, Terry. This has been the 16th podcast. Thank you for having me.