ACFM - #ACFM Microdose: Election Special

Episode Date: November 24, 2019

‘You can’t say it’s boring’: the #ACFM crew bring you an election special – on organising, energy and political polarisation. Plus, a special campaigning song. https://novaramedia.com/?p=15970

Hi, how you doing? We're back and we're ready for it all over again. He puts the NHS private. How are people going to afford it? Probably leave under the tree for him would be a Christmas carol by Charles Dickens. We've got people who died because of austerity and you've got the chute to come here and tell us austerity's over. Taking a risk, having a punt, having a go, that pumps me up. Do you ever be prepared to use a nuclear weapon? Yes. We're going to go.

I will very soon. Hello and welcome to ACFM, the home of the weird left. My name is Keir Milbin. And today I'm joined by my two rather infused friends, Nadia Idle. Hello. And Jeremy Gilbert. Hello. And today we're going to talk about what else, the election, an election special,

just what you've been waiting for. Nadia, why are we talking about the election? What's it got to do with acid carbonism, acid communism, as if we didn't know? Okay, this is a really important moment. This is a moment where there's a lot at stake. I'd like us to talk about that a bit. And there's a lot happening emotionally when the Boris Johnson prerogation thing happened. It was like, fuck, this is a lot.

a moment and I was literally like 12 hours away from dressing up with a group of people as French revolutionaries and like wheeling down some like French Revolution props like down to Downing Street, etc. And it felt like a moment where we could we could do that and you know, we make jokes about off with their heads and whatever, that sort of stuff. And then it kind of fizzled away and it again became the sort of space where you didn't think that you that there was that energy and it was a really really weird time before the election was called because it felt really stunted and now that the election is called it's like there's an actual timeline and there's a purpose and it's really chaotic and there's a lot of people trying really hard to win this on

all the different levels but it feels so real you mean you can't say it's boring this is not a boring time to be alive in Britain. And if you're feeling bored, we can make an acid argument that there's something else that is going on. I think. And maybe let's engage with that later. Yeah, I agree. You shouldn't be bored. That's a chaotic. This is a chaotic start. But, you know, there's a lot of chaos going on in my brain. But I feel well. I feel absolutely but I feel I feel well because it's like yeah come on like we're going to give this everything we've got you know I agree with you I let's talk about how we're feeling because I've got to admit that the period before the election was called I was sort of gripped with anxiety

all the time and I basically didn't I couldn't I didn't know many one didn't make any difference whether I knew or not but I just didn't know whether we should go for an election or not go for an election. Honestly, the day it was called, no, the day after it was called, I reckon, my mood completely flipped. And you just basically, there was this huge burst of enthusiasm on the left. And then you started to see the first, the first sort of pictures of people of mass, the amount of people out canvassing, basically. And, you know, you'd hear reports of like 200 people in Manchester turning up to get persuasive conversation trainings. It's the same in Lees, actually. There had 150 people turned up to this hall.

They literally had to shut the doors because they couldn't get any more people in and it was getting to be a fire hazard. And the atmosphere seemed to have flipped really quickly to one of like almost euphoria. It's a weird one. And my mood lighting straight away at that point, you know. Whether that's just fooling myself, who knows?

No, no, no. I don't think it is. I don't think it is. No. Because it, because, like, you know, then you start to see like hints that, the things that you always knew, which is, you know, that basically the contemporary Labour Party is at a massive disadvantage

when there's not an election going on, because then the focus shifts when there's not an election going on, you know, the media frames everything, the focus is on Downing Street, well, we can basically do nothing. And as soon as it flips into an election mode or something like that, even the prorogation actually seemed to flip it as well, even though that wasn't an election mode, but the focus moved out outside of Parliament.

And outside of Parliament is, of course, the only place where, you know, the streets, the doorstep, that's the only place where the contemporary Labour Party has the advantage, has the edge. But I also think it's really, what's really significant is like, you know, you mentioned the kind of terrain that we're working in Jeremy, not Jeremy actually. I think it was UK here who said, like, it's... Careful, you're careful. Don't get this wrong. One of you blokes, anyway, mentioned scorched earth

that compared to other places in Europe and the world in terms of sociality and in terms of like collectivity. Like the UK isn't a really kind of atomized, individualized, like consumerized, like subjectivities. Like that's where people are. So when you have something where there's a massive surge of like, here comes everyone and like who are all of these people? and like, whoa, those feelings you get from, you know, like in the last election,

I don't know whether it was Newcastle. And then there was another one in Leeds, I think, you were talking about Keir, where there was all of these people like clambering up the hill, etc. And you're just like, like, hordes of people that, you know, the mainstream media definitely don't want those images. Although I don't like using that term mainstream media because it's also partly conspiratorial, but like, the media doesn't want to show those. images because regardless of the content of what those people were doing, that that elicits

a certain response in other human beings when, you know, especially in the rain in the UK, there's a lot of people having fun together. Like, that's significant. And so of course, like, there's such a contrast between the pre-election and now sort of the in-election period when there's just big groups of people doing things together, like organizing together. it's fundamentally different to how it is before. Well, we should say something about them, you know, what is, you know, what is actually at stake in this particular election? Yeah, yeah.

What is the significance of it? Because, you know, there's obviously, obviously there's a widespread sense. There's a particular sense of urgency about it because of Brexit. Because even people who want the kind of, you know, left Brexit, think that we're not going to get that with Johnson wins the election. It's going to be some sort of crisis. But is it like significant,

is it a particularly significant election in other ways? I mean, it seems like it is to an extent because, I mean, this was already starting with May, but, I mean, it seems like they really have, I mean, it seems like the Tories, at least for now they have really have abandoned austerity and pretty much abandoned neoliberalism as a policy program.

I mean, they're talking about, you know, it seems to me they are struggling to figure out how to basically say they're going to spend loads of money, but do so in a way which is still characteristically right way. But they will always say that in an election period if you're the system government. They don't. That's the thing.

I mean, what started with Cameron was them not doing and say no, we're going to have austerity because it's necessary. In fact, they said we were going to Cameron promised more austerity than we got, which was part of their long-term strategy to sort of soften itself, I think. But yeah, I think nobody has any clue. I mean, you're right, and nobody has any clue

what they were actually doing in government. They clearly don't have any clue what they were actually doing government if they win. We're speaking and the manifest hasn't come out, but we're pretty sure we know what's going to happen if Corbyn gets in. Or we at least don't know the direction of travel that they want to move in, that Corbyn and John McDonald want to move in, right? And, you know, there's lots and lots of new ideas coming out on the left. That's where all the intellectual energy is. And there is basically no intellectual energy and no ideas coming out on the right or the centre, although the live doesn't come out with the skills wallet the other day.

Yeah, but the skills, what is, just straight out of the thick of it, is a parody of a kind of blare-right, technocratic, centrist policy, absolutely is a parody. It sounds like a sort of policy they'd event and a taxi. When the main policy announcements being cancelled, they have to come out with time. What's the name of that BBC programme that was about the Olympics? 2012. Yeah, 2012. Yeah, well, it's the same, you know, it is, it is straight out of that vain satire. I mean, and those are all satires of the political class, which, you know, I've argued lots of times,

it's sort of sent fundamental to neoliberalism. And it's eugeny, and it's, and really the thing that's changed in 2008 is the, is their crisis. You know, the fact that they just don't, they have no solution to no way maintaining their authority. Yeah, and like you mentioned before Jeremy, I think this, this idea that like the sent, centrist just don't, they just don't understand. They just don't understand that 2008 happened. And they just, they just, things aren't going their way and they don't understand why. I mean, it's one thing to reflect on, I think, you know, if it wasn't for Brexit, I mean, I think Labour would have a really significant polling. Yeah. I mean, it's part of our problem.

I mean, Brexit is really not, it is really distorting the whole debate because it, you know, there is a massive, there are all, you know, there is a big sway of kind of old people, especially. You just think Brexit is the only issue we're thinking about. And it's, defining everything. It was I think if it weren't for Brexit, then we, you know, if it was just a question of all, who has the platform that actually command support? Yeah,

it's interesting. I don't know because I mean, okay, going back to the question of like, why is this a significant election? Okay, well, Brexit is one part of it, but the other part of it is that when was the last time you had the two main

parties so massively polarised in terms of policy? like massively polarised like the things that the Labour Party is offering are not the things that the Conservative Party are offering the people that the Conservative Party is looking to speak to are not the people that the Labour Party is looking to speak to

in terms of like the 1% and the 99% not the spin around it but like the reality of it I mean it's just totally different these are two completely different parties this is not you know 2009 sorry 1990 1996, 1997, when everyone was moving towards the centre.

Like, we've got two fundamentally different parties. And that's why it is a genuine, like, in most seats where it's, obviously we've got this electoral system that makes it, you know, we haven't, it's first past the post, etc., which means that not everyone has the same way in their vote. But you're choosing between two very different parties when you're going to vote. and a lot of voters make up their mind, like that evening or that night or that morning. And that's why the canvassing is really important, which we'll get to later. Do you know what I mean? Regardless of the spin. Well, that's true.

But I think that also sort of, I mean, in a way that speaks to, you know, some of what we were already talking about. And this analysis made by Andy Beckett in his piece in The Guardian last week about the complete collapses. sort of Conservative Party just as any, or the political right really as an intellectual project. And I thought we said quite persuasively actually but it might not, it could turn out this isn't the big election.

That's why I think it could turn out that this election, whatever the outcome is all, is completely distorted by Brexit and it's only after Brexit that we're going to get the really decisive one that sees that really sees the kind of the fundamentally sees the, you know, finally sees the disordered,

shift away from neoliberalism and its legacy. So I think that is possible that that's actually where we're at, even though we don't know. I've heard you say this before, Jeremy, and I think that's a really important view, but I also partly want to ignore it because I can't operate on that level for the next four weeks. Do you know what I mean? Like we've just, this is the thing, is that we've just got to operate as if, like, we're giving it everything now. Do you? I mean, I agree.

we have to give it everything now, but that doesn't, I think we've got to say, you know, that's, you know, whether, even if the recovery of the left is a much more long term project, like this is a crucial episode. Yeah, yeah. How we do now, whether or not labor forms a government after the election. And to be honest, I would say, really, whether or not they perform as a government after the election is not the most important thing in the medium term. The most important thing is how successful are we in building up the left's forces and making gains for the left? And, and, um, And we're doing that anyway. You know, we're going to be, we're in the process of doing that in a really significant way, no matter what happens. And it's really obvious, for example, that the composition of the Parliamentary Labour Party is going to be radically different after this election, like, no matter what happens, actually, in terms of who forms the government. And that is really, that's a huge, it's a huge, like, thing, I think. Before we, before we shift on to that, though, because I think we also want to talk about, like, the effects of this, like, you know, so many people getting persuasive conversation training. And, you know, the way, how on it groups like momentum are this time around compared to 2017, you know, I think that will have a big effect, actually. Yeah, yeah.

Creating a sort of cadre of people who are, you know, who are skilled up, you know, I think that's going to have a really big effect no matter what happens in on December the 12th. But there are other things which are lining up, which do make this potentially really, really important election. And one of them is that, you know, this collapse of the right as an intellectual project, that is not, you know, that's going on. that's a worldwide phenomena, right? And so one of the other things we've got going on is, you know, there's going to be a US presidential election. And so if you sort of think, oh, well, you know, Corbyn could actually be Prime Minister by Christmas.

Bernie Sanders could be prime. Corbyn and Bernie, come on. Yeah, much better. But basically, straight away, it makes you think of a sort of Reagan, Thatcher, sort of inflection point in world history. Do you know what I mean? Now, it may well not turn out to be that way,

but you, and it may well turn out to be there, isn't an inflection point towards the left because, you know, what we also see is the reaction of the right, you know, there's huge amount of like, you know, there's coups and violent, struggle back, you know, push back towards any potential on the left around the world at the moment. So it's an inflectionable, we don't know which way it's going to go. But, you know, that is what seems to add extra impetus for this being a really important one because it would, because Corby doing very, very well in this election, Labor doing very, very well in this election could have an influence on.

on the way, you know, on things such as the U.S. presidential election, perhaps it's overstating it. But, you know, the sense that, like, in fact, the left is a viable. And for European groups as well, and to give energy to European movements. I mean, the fact that consistently, whenever I speak to anyone who's, like, from other European countries, and they're just like, yeah, we're looking to you because you're, like, the biggest left organization, like in the Western world or whatever, like 500. a thousand people, like is a lot of people, you know, to be members, members of an organisation. And, you know, it's a, it's a moment.

Yeah, I think that's right. And I, that's interesting, actually, because I think this clarifies me, like what my own mood has been, actually, since the start of the election. And my own mood has been, you know, quite reflective, partly because just not, I'm not really able to go out. I'm just having to do it vicariously, vicariously live the election through you, no idea. And like, other people who don't have little kids and aren't in the middle. of a teaching term, but I don't, but also my feeling about it actually is, yeah, for the medium to long term, I'm feeling more positive actually. I have to do than previously because I just think, I think there's all, I mean, it's the point Andy Beckett to get made in that article.

There's all kinds of contingencies can affect a specific election, but what's not in doubt is that the claims made by some of critics, like on the right and the censorist sort of skeptics, that Corbinism was some sort of flash in the palm, that it wasn't sustainable, that it was clearly bullshit. I mean, it is absolutely clear now that the left is undergoing a decisive recovery. But I think that, and that's really significant

because that hasn't, I've never felt that way before. I've lived through several moments since the early 90s, and basically a bunch of people who'd never really done any activism before started doing some and got really excited and said, oh yeah, this is it now. And I just said, no, it isn't, because basically compared to the last way,

this is smaller, you know, And it, or compared to things, you know, I know about from the past, this is smaller. And I would say it's still the case, you know, but I don't think we are. We're not in the state where we can say, well, we've actually recovered from the defeat to the 80s, but this is now decisively totally different from anything that's happening in my adult life. So that is really important, I think. It is really important to note that. So I feel, you know, I feel, you know, pretty confident that we're on, you know, we're going somewhere.

And I think it is because, like here said, because, I mean, the extent to which momentum was kind of picked up the whole idea as a distributed campaigning like empowering the membership and using the available technology to empower the membership collectively is just fantastic and it is fantastic

and it is something that people you know like us have been dreaming of since the fucking 90s really to see this actually happening and it is and it's working and it works you know it's really proving incredibly powerful a kind of mobilising with it by

and it is starting to shift the pulse and it is creating a sense of kind of hope and possibility and it's so different and it's really worth people understanding as well how different it is you know from even other moments of kind of labour mobilisation I think it was before just before we started recording we were talking, you were saying that you had been talking

to a labour council who was comparing the situation to a wave of enthusiasm for Blair in 97 the things I can tell you now what I can tell you was like you know I had the training I didn't do the canvassing because I didn't like what they were telling me. If you went and had training in 97 and it was the same in 92 and I did do canvassing, what you got told is specifically, this is really important, don't try to persuade people. Your job as a canvasser is not to persuade people, is not to engage people in political conversation.

Your only job is to find out how people are going to vote and contribute that data to our records. So the whole idea of the membership as an active force, like engaging in, you know, hegemonic struggle to try to shift people's common sense was actively foreclosed. I mean, that was the whole condition of possibility for New Labour. So it's a totally different model of campaigning. And it's really incredible to see. I'm seeing a lot on social media,

and it's kind of a line you get that, you know, the right, the kind of bad-tempered, you know, Corbyn-hating Labour right, you know, they keep trying to say, oh, this isn't proper democracy. Are these momentum is just like an army of stooge is being told what to do. I saw like a prominent kind of Labor Right academic on

Twitter saying, sneering at the photographs of loads of people turning up to canvas saying, oh, this isn't people power, it's just people being told what to do. Yeah, there's 700 people that turned up to Chingford, yeah. It's just incredible. It was an incredible remark because what did you think was happening in

97? In 97, you were told, you would turn up and you were told don't engage with people. You know, does he think that was some kind of an exercise in grassroots democracy? It's unbelievable. So I think it is really important, like, for people to understand how novel it is in some way. What's happening is, it's extremely novel. And it is absolutely. I think let's, let's maybe, yeah, go on. No, it's just that. No, I just thought it might be worth at this stage,

like defining some of these, like, just taking a little bit of time to maybe define a little bit of these methodologies for people, because not everyone will know exactly what we're talking about. So what persuasive conversations is, like what that is as a thing, what classic canvassing is and like some of the different, like what distributive organising is. So I'll just explain those really quickly for people who might not know. So in general... We should say, you're saying this with the authority of someone who's working in the momentum office at the moment. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm kind of like an, I'm an organiser, like a political organiser.

So that's kind of what I do as a profession. And I'm now working part-time in the Momentum Office. And the rest of the time, I'm doing momentum volunteering for like the online, online team, the new online teams we've recruited. And I'm also doing like loads of canvassing and stuff with CLPs and organizing. So I'm basically working about a six and a half day a week at the moment. So I'm totally neckered. And this is my day off. Hero of the class.

This is my day off today. So I'm doing As of Communism instead. Yay! Which actually feels like a holiday. Like I'm sitting in front of this mic at the laptop. And I feel like, wow, this is different. I've not done this for a while. Right.

Okay. So generally, when we're talking about in an election period, we're talking about canvassing. Like Jeremy said, we're talking about people going and knocking on doors. And you are collecting data and you're collecting data. and you're collecting data and that data goes back to the boardrunner, i.e. one of your group of full, and that data is whether that person at that door is voting labor,

is not voting labor, is not undecided, whether they are a labor voter and need a postal vote, etc. And what that does is it then means that the campaign, from the perspective of that CLP or that marginal, i.e. the seat that Labor is either defending or is trying to gain, knows which doors they're going to knock on on the election day, which is called Get Out the Vote, which is another campaign which is done on the day,

to make sure that all of those people have voted. That is like, that's standard. Yeah. And that still needs to happen. Like that information is really, really important because it's a technical exercise. Now, the difference is between the way momentum does things and the kind of school of thought

and kind of very classic, narrow-minded way of understanding what canvassing is is what we're talking about in terms of this persuasive conversation. So persuasive conversations is literally a workshop that momentum and the community organizing unit, the amazing community organizing unit in the Labour Party are doing all around the country at the moment to train people on how to have persuasive conversations on the doorstep. And the reason why, I mean, this is like a completely like acid thing for me and like 100% in the middle of our like acid school of thought. And we'll get to that in a minute, in a minute, sorry.

But what's important about that is you're basically understanding this is the kind of important bit for me is that there's actually an, there is a cost to not being a nice person on the doorstep as well. It's not just about how do you convince that person or doorstep to vote Labor, but how do you have that sort of conversation that's going to change their mind even about the Labour Party? Now, I happen to be someone who's like very highly skilled in this area and, you know, and I'm a woman and I wear a bright pink jacket whenever I go canvassing. Not everyone has a bright pink jacket and not everybody is a woman and everybody can go hi and kind of speak in the way that I'm. I do and you shouldn't be expected to. But I've been canvassing for the last three weeks, maybe two, three times a week. And I've 99% of the conversations that I've had have been good. I've had people say to me things like, wow, I've never met a Jeremy Corbyn supporter.

It's been really nice to talk to you. I've had people say, you've made me change my mind. I've had people say, I'm definitely a Tory voter, but it's really nice to speak to you. I'll think about this thing you said about the NHS. Yes, like that's the stuff that's going to win us the election. Like, that's really, really important stuff. And not only is it the content, like I said, it's the fact that people, a lot of people will make a decision on how they vote

based on the last person they've spoken to. You know, people don't live in our political world. People will be like, well, the last person I spoke to was a Labour person. They seemed all right. I'll vote for Labor. Like, that's the sort of stuff. So, so sorry, that's me slightly going off there. But persuasive conversations is basically these trainings telling people how do you conduct yourself to convince people.

And also, of course, the authenticity of it. And this is the bit that really, really gets to me. It's like, if you don't believe we're going to win, like don't go out canvassing, honestly. You have to believe it because then when somebody says something to you that's total rubbish, I mean, I have red lines. You know, if somebody says to me, I don't like Corbyn's Brexit. policy, that's fine. We can have a conversation about it. If somebody says to me, Corbin is a racist, I

won't accept that. And you shouldn't accept that sort of stuff. And people are waiting to hear from one person, which they've not managed to have a conversation with, like, for the last three months. They want one person to be like, no, you're wrong. And you'll be surprised how well people react to that. It'll be like, oh yeah, thanks for correcting

me, or I've just never had a chance to have that conversation. This stuff like really, really, really matters. So that's persuasive conversations. We've talked about canvassing. Distributed organising, just very quickly, is a model that was used in the Bernie Sanders campaign and the Medicare for All with the National Nurses United, which are kind of amazing a union of nurses in the states, which have gone taking Medicare for All, which is the US campaign for universal healthcare, it's still below pan compared to what we have on the NHS.

but that campaign was, I think, in the last US election, it was like the recognition was like some tiny percentage and then it went up to 50%. And it's because of distributed organising. And the way distributed organising works is you basically recruit a whole, like a huge number of volunteers and you're clear about the aims of the campaign, but then the volunteers are given the same responsibility

as the staff members and are, allowed to go out and basically make the campaign work in terms of whether it's writing scripts for calling or like writing guides for canvassing or all the other bits that are part of a campaign, whether it's an election campaign or not. And it means that basically you're taking away this hierarchy and you're giving people the agency to do things, but while everyone's all on the same page. So momentum is now running distributed organising. I'm not going to give away like all of our tactics on air. But basically, like, there are thousands, it's not a joke. Like, there are thousands of people that have signed up for their stuff. And I mean, the systems can barely cope. I mean,

that's one of the reasons why we've been slowing, getting back to some people. But there are thousands of people who have signed up to do all of the various things. It's really, it's more than heartwarming. It's like, wow, I don't know how to describe it, really. That's the sort of stuff that makes me able to do what I'm doing. So I hope that's a useful explanation. Yeah, it is. But we should also talk about that because there's a sort of, there's a wave of the campaign, which is even further more decentralized than that, right? So there's been a series of initiatives. You too must have seen this Tory story, hashtag Tory story thing that was going on. And that started totally spontaneously, basically. A friend of mine, Jacob just saw somebody had just written up a handwritten, handwritten notes, you know, about the circumstances. They were in, basically. A really classic testimony sort of thing. They've just written it up and stuck it on a bus stop saying, you know, I can't remember.

I think it might have been about, you know, the difficulty of accessing health care. Or it might even, I think it was somebody who said, look, you know, I work two jobs. I just only just keep my head above water. Got all of these problems going on. You know, I don't know how much more I can take of this. Do you know what I mean? I basically, I just need you to vote Labor. Do you know what I mean?

And it was pretty moving. And so you took a photograph of that. And then other people saw it and started putting up their own, just handwritten note about, like, look, this is where I'm at. Like, you know, and I also needed to vote Labour. And people started calling it Tory Stories, hashtag Tory Stories. It started trending a couple of days ago. I know it's very similar to the, to a tumbler called We Are the 99%, which took off around the Occupy Wall Street days where people were doing the same thing holding up, you know, bits of cardboard with their story written on it. I found it really powerful, basically.

And that's just something that happens almost, well, basically spontaneously, with just a model in the background, you know. But it happens also, it's picked up on and it's amplified because of the moment and because of the moon. Yes, definitely. And what it does say and why it's so exciting is it, again, it's that authenticity thing. It's like the antithesis of the kind of Blair-write, you know, like corporate NGO type model of this kind of top-down, you know, like media-savvy, like whatever, crap,

which we, well, it's not even Blair, right, it's just the way things are done under neoliberalism now, where, you know, you go up the underground in London or whatever, and all of these ads and just ads speak, like, talking total crap and whatever. And then you have, like, a campaign about something that's about people's lives. Like, it's genuinely about people's lives, and it plugs into the election,

which is what the election should be about, about the 320,000 homeless people of 4.1 million children underneath the poverty line in one of the richest countries in the world. That's what the election should be about. But of course, it's not. It's about other issues which have been abstracted and about party infighting. That's how it's being spun as opposed to about the real things. And that's what Tory story has been really good for. Can I just mention one more thing as well about what the election is about and what it should be about?

is that I got a train up to Leeds on there on the weekend and it was delayed by two hours and loads of trains cancelled because of the floods people crammed onto this you know crammed onto these every space of the trains

do you know what I mean everyone like you know treating each other with respect and all that sort of stuff and just outside I just could not believe the size of the floods that had happened in the north of the Midlands

and then up to Sheffield in particular I was just unbelievable It just, it was honestly, mile after mile after mile of flooded land. It was completely, and I was just, I started getting really annoyed, basically, because I was going, why is this not what the election's about? This is, you know, basically we have a major national disaster linked to climate change in the period just after we've had extinction rebellion, just after we've had these whole cycle of school student strikes around the climate, you know what I mean?

And, you know, basically, I was really annoyed at the Green Party because, like, you know, they're not, they're not making it. their number one priority. They're not making this, the climate change elections. You know, they're sort of going along with this, the Brexit remains sort of election. I think, you know, obviously within the Greens, there's a bit of, there's quite a lot of tension about this,

and people sort of push back at me a bit and saying, it's not fair to say that Greens aren't concentrating about it. There's a battle going on in the Greens about what we should be talking about. But, you know, I think it's much simpler than that. I think, like, it's outside the M-25, no one gives a fuck. I mean, there is that, definitely there is that going on. I think, like, the, like, it's as if the north of the M-25, like, does not exist. I mean, it's not even, like, it's the Midlands included, you know.

I mean, that, that north, south things in terms of power and what's on people's radar. I mean, if, come on, if Westminster was flooded or, like, Tumbridge Wells or something, like, let's be honest about it. Like, it will, you know, if it was Oxford, that was half under water, then suddenly, it would have been like people gave a shit about climate change. People listening outside the UK, the M25 is like the giant, basically the giant ring road that goes all around London. Yes, thank you.

If you talk about being outside the M25, you mean outside London. Yeah. I'd be interested to hear from people about what, you know, what's coming up on, if it's affecting, what's coming up on the doorsteps out in those northern constituencies. Yeah. Because I haven't really heard it. Have you heard anything about that, no idea? No.

Are people who are actually being flooded? because those are that is happening in some of it's happening in the places we are told labour is at risk at losing the seats that it's held historically for 100 years because people there are so committed to break yeah that's one actually bit of information that I'll probably be looking into next week which I don't think we've got as far as aggregating both like some of the narrative stories that are coming out from the big canvases in the marginals or like in terms of the numbers those are two things that people are asking anyway I think I think I think I don't know what momentum's plans are for that, but that's definitely stuff that some of the activists want to know. You know, there's this whole new comparison thing between like number of people going out on the doorstep in 2017 and 19 and what are the things on the doorstep. And I mean, I can only speak for the campuses that I've been on. I don't actually know what the national data is on that yet. It could well be that has no effect at the moment because like, you know, you have disruption and it's really extreme disruption in those areas. But that has

to be, you know, it has to be linked to a cause. I know, in some way we link it to climate change. But, you know, especially in Sheffield, it's also to do with grouse hunting, to be honest, right, where they have to burn the moors every year to make it amenable to grouse hunting, which means that a huge amount of, like, the natural absorption of upland areas gets burnt away every year, basically, and all that water floods down into Sheffield. It's a really big problem at the Calder Valley as well, up in Hebden Bridge and all of those sort of areas, do you know what I mean?

That's very interesting. It's me and Jeremy going, we're within the M25. We had no idea. I have Morland's in London. What's more? Yeah, I always try and get my grouse from Ireland. Yeah. Sustainable grice.

Yeah, grouse for Corby, that's what we need to start. You've heard of grime for Corbyn, but now that's. those grouse for Corbyn. So there's a question, I mean, it's an interesting question there, isn't there? What, if anything, has changed since 2017? Yeah. Because I don't, I mean, I'm not really, my sense is that in a way not much has changed. In terms of what? The campaign or the reality?

Well, in terms of the, yeah, the dynamics of the election and the campaign. I mean, you know, the people, the Corbyn skeptic commentariat kept telling her so it's not going to be like 2017. There's no way this is going to be anything like 2017. And there is a significant difference at the start of the campaign of the Lib Dems seemed to have at least by the start of the campaign that accumulated a lot of support

from our core remain raised. I think it's a much harder campaign. But apart from that, well, let's talk about that. I mean, apart, but on the other hand, the campaign does appear to be following a very similar pattern to the last one to, you know, much, you know,

given that we were told by commentators it couldn't possibly follow a similar pattern again. so i mean we're recording right we're recording one week into the official election campaign and you know the polls seem to be shifting you know a few points a week which is pretty you know in our favour from a pretty low point but yeah yeah i mean i think you should talk more about why it's hard enough because obviously the big thing that's changed is the recovery of political democrats isn't it yeah i mean i feel like the the the anti-corban like the relentless anti-corbin attack has really infiltrated people's minds, I would say.

And I think it's on, like, and this is why momentum's energy is really important. Because the people who are coming from the momentum background into the training and onto and onto canvases have that steadfastness inside them. They're not surrounded by either right-wing labour people. or other people who are like, yeah, I mean, maybe, you know, Corbin's not that great, or maybe he just is a bit of a racist, or maybe he is a terrorist sympathizer. I mean, I can feel my blood boiling just as I'm saying those words, because you literally have people say things to you that they were not saying in 2017.

I'm not saying this is the overwhelming experience. My overwhelming canvas experience, even here in the kind of conservative suburbs, conservative with a small sea, has been positive. But you do have people coming up with absolute shit. And it is shit and it's wrong about Corbyn that we didn't have in 2017. Like we just didn't have that with like, you've got levers saying that he's too Romani. You've got Remainers saying that he's too Levy.

You've got that he's, you know, a terrorist sympathizer. You've got pictures of him going around on the internet with his face on top of Insama bin Laden. Like you have ridiculous stuff that is going on that is because, because the stakes are so high. Like, if Labour win, if this Labour Party wins the election. Yeah, go on. No, no, I got on me. I mean, I do remember most of that from the 2017 election.

I think it's... Really? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I don't. I remember this. The level of hysteria in the press was, if anything, a little bit higher than now. It's particularly towards the end, and we're only getting into this now. I'm sure. I hope you're right.

Shoot there's levels of hysteria to dredge yet. Sorry, Gary. Have you been canvassing both of you? No. No. No. My sense, my senses from just chatting to people is that I think, yeah, the hysteria levels in the press went up to absolute maximum in 2017. There was no higher they can never get. But, yeah, now, I mean, I think certainly amongst that constituency, you know, very fanatically pro-remain, you really don't understand what Brexit is about and just know they don't want it to happen.

And a lot of whom did go for Corby, because the Lib Dem seemed to be finished. they thought we would be, and also they thought that Brexit was a done deal, that it was just a question of whether it would be a really bad Brexit or not. You know, a lot of them who voted for Labour in 2017, a lot of the anti-Semitism stuff, the stuff about somehow Brexit being Corbyn's fault, you know, it has, I think my sense it has penetrated into a lot of minds. They're basically thick middle class people who actually believe what people like Jonathan Friedland say to them. You know, they have been hearing the same stuff from those people from all than two,

years and they haven't they don't hear any critique of it yeah the critique of that stuff from people like us doesn't penetrate their little worlds um and i think you know yeah my i mean my and i think that does you know i mean that is what explains the sort of recovery of the lived dems but the i mean the sort of recovery of the lived dems i think is worth talking about because it's part of those bigger process really of the sort of crisis of neoliberalism that basically and the crisis of that kind of neoliberal political class and that basically that kind of centrist, technocratic

you know, former, you know, neoliberal politics which is now just sort of nostalgic for the long 90s, has pretty much been driven out of both the Conservative and Labour parties. You know, which where it had a very comfortable home, in a form of Cameronism and Blairism,

like until recently. And the Lib Dems who are a sort of constant floating signifier of British politics, I think, really. They're a sort of institutional space that will just absorb whatever reason is being excluded from the other main parties at any given moment. Dirty sponge. So, you know, in the early 2000s, they become, you know,

basically the party of the left, like for a few years because there isn't any other party of the left. Now, I mean, the way I keep putting it to people, I mean, Swinton is just beside their leader, has become absolutely, I mean, she's become deranged with excitement at the prospect that she might get the job now, and Liberal Democrats might now get the job. of representing, you know, that kind of elite, technocratic, you know, sort of centaurite neoliberalism,

which has been kind of pushed out of all the other politics. But that creates a really problematic dynamic because there's a lot of those kind of, you know, sort of classic sort of 50-something, very affluent, you know, people who did really well out of Blairism in the 90s who really don't want to be told all that stuff is over and it's not coming back. You know, the Lib Dems now seem like a very, a very attractive prospect for that, because They're basically telling them, yeah, it can all come back if you vote for us by some fucking magic. You know, at the World Transformed this year, me and a couple of mates invented this game called the First Hundred Days.

We got asked to do it by The World Transformed, actually. And so it's sort of like a scenario planning game about how you respond. What would happen in the first hundred days of a Corbyn government? What sort of attacks might they come under and how might ordinary people and social movements respond to those? And we've been contacted by a group called Ella Baker Organising Society, and I say, look, we need you to write that up, et cetera, because if Corbyn wins, we're going to try and roll that out around the country. You know, that is the sort of thing we need to do.

We need to be getting people to, like, engage with, you know, with this sort of strategic thinking about, okay, we've got here, how do we move somewhere else? You know, how do we get to the next place? Do you know what I mean? I think you're completely right. And I think that, you know, the gate, I mean, you're, the games you've been organising, I think, a really nice example of something that sort of

sit in between sort of just classic, you know, political education and pedagogy for which, as I always say, I think there is a really important place. And, you know, just sort of festival culture and just a celebratory way of creating collective joy. And I think it, you know, it is really stressing the extent to which, you know, sort of cultural innovation and forms of collective, you know, ways of articulate and collective joy have been a really important part. the campaign, haven't you? And to be honest, though, like the five week, sort of, or like the election timeline, even from like before the official election campaigning, started really focuses that. And like one of those groups that I want to give a massive shout out to is like the

left chance squad, which just started up as a face, as a, sorry, a WhatsApp group. And then now I think it's got over 100 people in it. And it's been so successful at putting out, like hilarious, like football chance, like Christmas songs, like jingles made into like Corbin or like Labor Chants. That literally every single time, Keir, that you said John McDonald on this call, I've been like trying to stop laughing because all I can hear in my head is McDon do don, don, don't, don. Because we've, I put a dare on saying, can somebody make the thong song from like the early 2000s into like a, you know, a labor chance. and somebody did and it's hilarious it goes and we've got john matthano it's really really really funny and and yeah we sang some of these songs like last Friday at a social like just in a pub and it was it's just so good but that

stuff wouldn't have you know this started before the election but the focus now on people like staying up three o'clock in the morning going like how can I make the thong song into like you know about the Green New Deal or something has has it's just great like it's it's the creativity as well that comes out and I think that's the the challenge is that if you're saying Jeremy like how how does that creative campaigning like how can we capture that I think I don't I don't know like I don't know that there is a mechanism to make sure that it doesn't dissipate and go away I think the fact that you know the left chance squad songbook now exists in you know printed format and other people have it and you know we can pass it round is is like important but I don't know

if you can keep energy I don't know I genuinely don't know I think that's a good it's a good example actually just publishing this own book is a really good development I think um we should give a shout out to fuck Boris shouldn't we because that is yeah that is some actually trying to use rave almost in a sort of reclaim the streets old school reclaim the street style you know as a kind of vehicle for intervening in the election. So I thought Boris has sort of emerged out of grind for Corby, but they're basically organising sort of street parties as a way of mobilising the sort of youth folk

to try and actually unseat Boris Johnson in Uxbridge. That's right, isn't it? And all the marginals. So check them out, and it's FCK. One thing I want to mention is, I haven't been out canvassing yet. I'm going to go this week. Yeah, everyone go canvassing.

Seriously. Everyone do canvassing. same. I'm definitely going to go. I'm definitely going to go. But my, you know, I know exactly when I'm going to do my most canvassing. It'll be between the 24th of November and the, I think, the 5th of December, because I'm going to be on strike. The UCU called the strike basically. I know there's moves of foot to sort of like momentum to try to like, you know, get people. Strike canvassing funds now. Yeah, people trying to get people, you know, to go to go visit the picket lines and then go from the picket lines. go canvassing, etc. But that's a way to free my time up yet to go on strike. But that's the stuff that's been actually really, really creative.

It's the ways that people have been trying to find. You know, like momentum has launched this Labour Legends thing. And I think people have signed up to take, I don't know, something like a thousand weeks of collectively, it's like a thousand weeks off work. Collectively, it's more than a thousand. I'm just, like 10 to tens of thousands. Maybe, maybe.

It's about 1,000. No, no, just go on talking, don't know. But people are trying to organise that sort of thing. It's like, how do we get people to marginal? Like, if people are on strike, like, how can we facilitate that? So there's also a massive logistics job, you know, it's not, what's needed is not just, the creativity is also in the logistics. It's not just in, not everyone can canvas.

And, you know, that's why people are doing calling, which is not the same as phone banking. Can I say, like, texting, like, research. and whatever, and momentum is organizing all of these teams. But it's also people who are organizing exactly stuff like that. It's like, what do we do with the people on strike? How do we make it easy for them to go canvassing or for them to do something else? And that's where there's a lot of the creativity as well. And it's been really nice to see people step up with the skills and the capacity that they've had,

which is going to be different for different people. There's loads of disabled people who are unable to leave their house that are doing amazing work towards this election. Yeah, I think that it is amazing. And to me, I think it is really remarkable the extent to which all this is being facilitated by sort of mobile and platform technologies, like they're being used in really creative ways, you know, which is partly right. I mean, for me, the kind of wave of, the latest wave of kind of very pessimistic commentary and things like social media, which is obviously justified in many ways, is still quite problematic because it's so obvious that this stuff is, I mean, this is the sort of democratic promise of the internet that, you know, we were first promised in the early 90s. And then we kept being told, oh, it's not happened, oh, it was all bollocks. And actually, I mean, it's very, very complicated. Obviously, there are also terrible things about a world rule by Facebook.

But all of this is now doable. Like, you know, all of this kind of horizontal and distributed organization is now being facilitated by the use of these technologies. And a rope is really remarkable. I mean, we're really milking Facebook and WhatsApp now, especially. I would say, I would say. But also other technologies, you're right. I mean, yeah. Well, it's a combination of the big platform.

and having our own kind of custom tech, isn't it? Which I think is obviously sort of crucial. But I think it is really, really exciting. With the face-to-face as well, is that it's almost like almost everyone who's involved, I would hope, or I think, you know, are less isolated than they were a few weeks ago. And that that and the kind of understanding of there's a percentage of either face-to-face with potential voters or face-to-face with other labor people or like face-to-face with like community people around logistics, there's more into people.

be having more meaningful interaction. And I think that is like a really, really, really important thing and a really acid thing to bring about. Yeah, it's the digital, it's the digital facilitating the analogue, isn't it, rather than replace it? Yes, yes, exactly. So it's less moaning on the internet, basically. Yeah. So it's precisely the analogy of me, like organizing a party where I've used, I've used

the internet to get the records, but we're playing them on a turntable. to a room full of real people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's make clear to people if people want to get involved in any of the forms of organising Nadi was talking about, which is really easy. There's a range of options and ways to get involved,

many of which include things you can do from the comfort of your own home. If like me, you would do anything for the socialist courts except going to talk to people. And those are... And so if you start just go, Just go to the Momentum website, sign up to the Momentum email list. I'd go one better than that.

What the movement needs is for everyone to step up one level. So I don't expect people to be doing what I'm doing, which is probably like, I don't know, level 9 out of 10. But if you're not doing anything, then we need you to get to level one. And there's something for everyone, but we literally need everyone who is sympathetic to a world that is based on justice and not like the elites running the country. Like, we need everyone to step up one,

not someone else like you. So this is like, I'm... Great, level two, here I come. All right, we leave it. Are we not going to go out on a chant, Keir? Are we going to make a really awkward chant? The one you were talking about earlier, Keir, was the, when I read the manifesto,

I get out of my head. I'm just got good enough. I just love it. It goes like this. Red Labour's manifesto. sent me out of my head I just can't get enough I just can't get enough

want a three-day weekend or a green new deal instead I just can't get enough I just can't get enough let's have the both of them fuck private schools as well because I just can't seem to get there enough

It's so it's so good Do-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D. Just vote Labour. Red Labour's Manifesto sent me out of my head. I just can't get enough. I just can't get enough. Want a three-day weekend or a Green New Deal instead.

I just can't get enough. I just can't get enough. Let's have the both of them fuck private skills as well, because I just can't sleep to get enough. Thank you.