ACFM - #ACFM Microdose: Psychodrama with Nada Sabet

Episode Date: July 22, 2021

The point of psychodrama is not to create beautiful theatre, laughs practitioner Nada Sabet. To accompany the next #ACFM Trip on the topic of therapy, host Nadia Idle finds out about an unusual therapeutic technique which borrows elements of theatre, psychiatry and psychotherapy to gain insight into different facets of our identity. Nada explains how […]

This is acid, man. Hello and welcome to ACFM. On today's microdose, I'm speaking to Neda Sebit about psychodrama. Nader has a degree in both theatre and psychology and has practiced both psychodrama and interactive theatre as part of her career and practice. So hello, Nada. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

Hello, Nadia. Thank you. It's my pleasure. So just before we start, I just want to give a couple of disclaimers for you listeners to consider. So disclaimer one is while Nada is an experienced psychodramatist, she does not hold a qualification from the best

British Psychodrama Association. So there may be aspects of her practice that we discuss that are not pertinent to the UK terrain. And the second one is that both Nader and I also speak fluent Arabic and as listeners who are bilingual will know when you're in a room with someone who speaks the same languages that you do, it's very difficult to keep to one language. So if you hear random words, they're probably random Arabic words, they might slip in, we'll try and explain them to you in the end. But just so you know if you hear some funny sounds, that's what that is. So without further ado, let's talk to Nader about psychodrama. So Nada, you and I were having a conversation a few months ago and you started explaining what psychodrama is. And I was

absolutely fascinated and thought this would be a very good complementary topic to go alongside our full ACFM episode on therapy. So, maybe first things first, can you tell us a little bit about what psychodrama is? Okay. Psychodrama is an action method. It's used usually for group therapy. It is based on the premise that people are made up of different parts

and that these parts show up differently as you played. different roles in life. So, for instance, at the moment, I am being interviewed by you, so different parts of me are more present, while maybe if I'm with my kids or being parent or being partner, other parts of me are more dominant and present. Okay. And is this, is this a technique, is this coming from the drama tradition or from the psychotherapy tradition? Where does it, where does it come from? Is it something that's other psychologists and psychiatrists, use? Yes. So it comes from, I mean, the person that created it, Moreno, and his wife, Kate Hudgens, early in the 20th century. And they're both psychiatrists. So it comes, I guess, more from that

aspect. But it uses a lot of theater. So you act out all the things that are happening internally. and it really, I find it really fascinating how it gives people a bird's eye perspective of what's inside. So you know how like when you're trying to figure something out internally, even on like a very basic level and you're kind of just in it and it's too close, you're not really seeing all the elements. While if you're kind of take it out, put it on the table and have different people represent the different elements, you can then see the whole picture. Right. So it's kind of like you're talking about externalising. it's a, is it, would it be fair to say, it is a method of externalizing the different bits

of an internal process you have while you're trying to work something out? Or is it that you're externalizing the different, uh, people? I mean, depends on what you're working on. So, so, so yes, you are externalizing. You're concretizing, uh, which means you're taking something that, that you might not be able to put your hands on and making it really concrete. in front of you. Mm-hmm. And then it's allowing you to see internal dynamics, always with the aim of then being able to play with these dynamics.

So it's really good for just understanding internal dynamics. Mm-hmm. But also for replaying or practicing things in the future or replaying different endings of things that may have happened in the past or not happened in the past. So, for instance, if someone has lost someone really dear to them and they would really benefit from being able to say goodbye, they can do that using psychodrama.

Or if there's a certain dynamic with a boss that keeps happening and you really want to be able to stop it and change it. So then you could also take that out and play with it in a psychodrama session and practice how you'd like it to be. It's really fascinating stuff. Before we get into the details and like an example, maybe for our listeners of what we're talking about. Can you tell us a little bit more about, do you know more about where it comes from?

So these two people who you mentioned, were you saying psychiatrists? Yes, Jacob Murray, yes, and Kate. I mean, it started in their practice and currently Kate runs the Therapeutic Spiral Model Institute in the US. And that's kind of where I got my qualifications. it's not kind of, it is where I got. I don't know why is that kind of. And the therapeutic spiral model or TSM for short is a modified kind of system

of using psychodrama to work with trauma in particular. So sorry to stop you, you said early 20th century or is it early? Early 20th century, yes. So these people invented it and there's an institute by their name in the States, right? And this is where it was invented in the US. I was like, okay, fine, okay. Yeah.

Sorry, go ahead. No, no, it's fine. And it uses quite a lot of theatre and stage techniques. Props, material. You're kind of creating scenes, basically. Without the, I mean, the ideas, I mean, because I also do theatre. So in psychodrama, the point is not to create beautiful theatre. It's to really kind of do the things you need to do for your own healing.

And so is it about what? individual? It's a group therapy. So you do typically is kind of do a bunch of games to kind of get people comfortable, make sure they understand what different parts, understand that there are parts that are supported. So if you're going to kind of delve deep into work, then you would need to have support. So I may want to talk about a trauma, but I'm not going to to, you know, talk about it from the level of functioning I'm in when I'm at the supermarket and trying to get things done. Okay. Yeah? But so I would need to feel comfortable and realize that there are, there might be, there is a part of me that's hurt or carrying the trauma,

but then there are other parts that are my strengths, so to speak. And I need to be able to call onto them in kind of this journey or this exploration through psychodrama. So is it so, Give us then a description of how this would work. So say I'm an individual that's struggling with some kind of trauma or some pain or resentment. And maybe I'm in the beginning of my journey of either healing or discovering what that is. And then somebody tells me, why don't you try psychodrama or presumably maybe I'm seeing a therapist. And so I would sign up for a session somewhere, presumably, and I've got this issue. it's an issue I know I want to work on.

Presumably, do you need to know what you need to want to work on before going? I find it useful that you do, but you don't have to. I mean, you can, so on a typical session, there are many people. And I find that everyone kind of gets a little bit out of it, even just by participating, sometimes just by watching. Right. So I'm this individual, I'm signed up for this thing. I've gone to a session, I will expect there to be other people there.

So how does it work for me? Is the whole session about me and everyone there has got me in the, or are we all working on our issues together? Can you maybe say a bit about practically how it works? I've done, I mean, I've done psychodromic sessions in mental health institutions, and sometimes we've just kind of divided the sessions up so that everybody can kind of know that on this day, that's who we're focusing on.

and can prep for it. Sometimes that's not useful because that also creates some kind of pressure to need to kind of be ready. But in workshop settings where we kind of announce that for the next four days or for the weekend or for however long we're hosting a psychodrama sessions and people can apply, what I do is I allow people at some point to express all the topics they're interested in in talking about. At the beginning of the day?

Not at the beginning of the day, no, but somewhere in the middle. So after people are kind of comfortable and they've already kind of explored their different parts and their strengths and have kind of gotten in touch with a more spontaneous part of themselves and are kind of ready to go on this journey, they feel like they're prepared. We kind of just do, okay, so what would people like to talk about and then kind of group people in the different topics or sometimes there is a predominant topic? So we pick like maybe there are three topics. So everyone shared something by now. So I've shared, I'm, you know, I'm resentful of my twin sister. For instance. Which is not real, by the way.

I do not have a twin sister, which is why I use that example. But I say, I've got this resentment towards my twin sister and I want to work on that. Very nice. And depending on the dynamics in the room, you may be asked to, okay, can you tell us a little bit more about the story? and then we'll ask other people in the room if this resonates or if they feel this is similar to what they're interested in or touch or something in them to kind of stand behind you. Right, okay. And if there's another equally enthusiastic person, we do the same thing with them and then

we'll see how the room kind of decides which side it goes to. But that said, the reason we do that is also to allow everybody to get a little bit of feedback. So you've already known that all these people standing behind you, this resonate. So you're not alone in this feeling. So that's part of the process that you're about to go through. Yes. So, I mean, even though there's a process, and I would say you can really dive as deep as you want, but you are in control as the participant or as the protagonist, if we're doing your story,

you'd be called the protagonist. And how do we? You are in control of how deep you go. Right. And so. Always. So who picks whose story we're doing? Do some people not get their story done, or is that...

I mean, some sessions are done for very specific topics. So I worked with, in Cairo, with a lot of Sudanese and Syrian refugees. And it was really about being a refugee and a woman. And that was kind of the topic of the whole series of workshops. And the people there, because they were a... that cohort had something in common, and that was you were doing that kind of work with them as a group. Okay. So, yes, so it could have a topic, and it can also just be random strangers in a room that are all interested in kind of going through this experience.

What I say is, just by being open to it, you will get something out of it. Because you resonate with what's being said. Maybe it gives you a different perspective. So you tell us what it is you want to work on. We may ask you to elaborate some things. And then we'll ask you to pick people to represent the different parts that are in this dynamic we're looking at. Okay. So, for instance, just to kind of give an example, whoever I want to work on...

The resentment you have towards your twin sister. Potentially, yeah, maybe the resentment I have to my twin sister where I feel she's always getting a lot more than I do. and that life is not fair and so as the drama therapists we'd always make sure that this person is comfortable and supported so maybe before we delve straight into the core of the issue we'd make sure that the person has their I sometimes call them superpowers

or their strengths so maybe I'm working on I was sexually molested as a child but before we jump into that I would say, okay, is there a part of you that you feel is really strong or when you're in different situations now, is there a part of you that's able to take decisions? Are there parts that carry self-compassion? Are there parts that are more giggly? Yeah? And we'd represent these parts first and play with them. And it allows everyone to kind of settle into a place of

strength. You do not start working on inner anything if you're not supported because what we do is you're just re-traumatize yourself. So let's pause here for a second and just explain that a little bit. So what you've just said is you've got different people. So either in the case that everybody's a refugee, so they have something in common, or in this case, you're saying there's a group of people who've got back together randomly in a workshop. What you've spoken about just there is you're saying that as part of this technique, the other people in the room will be taking up roles

which are part of your personality which you've identified. So, yeah, could you say a little bit about that? So, like, is somebody going to play the strong bit of you, the self-compassionate? Like, how does that work? Yes, someone will. So we'll say, okay,

there's a part of me that carries a lot of wisdom that I feel is very centered and very strong and very rooted and kind of is like all known. And I'd say, okay, I want this person. I might not know who this person is, but somehow I feel this person is a good match. Yeah, and this person will come out and she or he will be told what this part says to me and how this part speaks to me.

And we try it out. Yeah, until the protagonist goes, yep, that's what it sounds like. That's what it feels like. Right. That's it. You got this. Okay. And if it's useful, sometimes I'll ask the person.

protagonist to play that part. Okay. Yeah? And then to come back. Because that's also another technique of psychodrama. You're in the action and you're observing the action. And that allows you to gain different insight. Obviously, we're not doing this to create theater.

We're doing this to find answers, to explore a topic, to understand an internal dynamic, to change a dynamic. So at the moment, people are playing. So you've got this room with people. And they're playing, in this specific example that we've talked about, they're playing the different aspects of a person, which we're about to explore together to work on that specific problem. But I think you also mentioned when we have a conversation that you can play different people. So if I'm really angry at my twin sister. Yeah.

So maybe we don't do your story at all. It never comes out. But in whatever story we are doing, someone has a lot of anger. anger and then you get to play that part. I see. So then you still explore your anger or anger. Or maybe you really connect to another part and then you kind of go through your own journey of exploring, even though you're part of what's happening, you're also dealing

with your own stuff. Sure. And so does anyone get to play a person? Or are you just playing aspects of personality and feelings and trauma? So does someone get to be my twin sister? So I can say all of the things I've always wanted to say to her. If that is useful, we could do. I mean, sometimes people will say, I just want to do this.

And that's fine, you know. But sometimes people will say, I really want to do this. And as the person that's moderating, you realize that that's a really bad idea because they're just going to re-traumatize themselves. So you try and explain that and make suggestions. And it kind of works always. I mean, I don't remember. Yeah, I think if the psychodramatist is kind of in touch with their own self-compassion and curiosity,

you will find a way like I've never had this moment where I'm like oh my God now what so you've not had the situation of like a terrible crisis

where someone has I mean what what sort of what do people come out like what happens to people through this process they come out we're talking about it really

I've never had a crisis moment but I remember one time I was working with a wonderful woman who had just traveled from Sudan to Egypt on foot and kind of had I think I don't remember but she had very young children

and she didn't have a house and she was talking about the situation where she had to kind of move from house to house every few months because her kids were too much for whoever was hosting to handle and I remember at some point I was listening to her and I was like I mean surely we can fix this

like why don't we just collect money and buy her house and I remember I was getting into that okay let's find a pragmatic solution yes um and at some point i paused and i was like is this useful and she's like yes i've never told my story and had people listen like you without judging it and for her that's what you know so that's interesting you were thinking no we need we need a material practical solution yeah i was like okay let's forget about the social psychodrama stuff yeah yeah yeah yeah let's build a house

but actually that was useful for her but that was very useful for her and it was very humbling for me to kind of also remind me that I need to stay grounded and connected and focused on what we're doing and not let a more pragmatic goal-oriented part of me take charge of the session. Yeah. No, that's, no, that's a really great story. Thank you for that. Tell us another one. Like, do you have at the top of your head a story of someone who came out with something and it's really helped them maybe in a different context or what sorts of things have people come to you with when you've not done workshops or like the different, tell us the different environment.

I've worked with people on abuse, whether as adults or children, issues with dads, with parents, with grandparents, with work, with partners, with children even. I haven't tried psychodrama with children. but I am curious too because I've also done a lot of work with children more with play so maybe at some point I move into that

so yeah I mean it's a whole range I mean it's as many I remember once very very very touching I mean I say that they're all really touching on some level I mean you can't really compare them of course

where someone had not said goodbye to a partner and to kind of give that person the space to experience the moment where she could, where there was space, because in real life she didn't have that space to be and to say goodbye and to let go of it. And afterwards to kind of witness the amount of relief and settling. And sometimes it takes, you know, like there's what happens in the room and then there's kind of how it settles. later on.

And is there a kind of, as part of the process, is there a kind of, I don't know how to put this like an aftercare, like is there a, yeah, so how do you, yes, so what do you do? As the person moderating, you are response, okay, so yes, everybody is responsible for their own well-being, fine, but as the person who's facilitating, you're also responsible that that it settles for everybody so you don't leave people smack in the middle of a traumatic moment or in the middle of a process and even though you might not get all the way to the end so you can all say okay I'm aware of the time how about we finish this bit so it's something and then and maybe next session we work on so are there always more than one session I mean it really depends

on how clear the person that's coming is with what I mean some people are like I want to do one two three you know and like this is why I'm here and other people are kind of like I think maybe it's this but then it reminds me of this

and oh I just remember there's this one time where you kind of have to help them unpack it all and see how it all links and what they really would like to work on so that's one aspect the other aspect is sometimes people want to work on a really simple issue but it's complicated for them right so it takes them time no it's really about the person's relationship with what it is um um and the layers and their trust of the process so if someone's very like not letting go not playing along really like critical or analytical

about the process about the process it'll hinder how deep they go right yeah so maybe they want to work on something really deep but they're not ready to go there yeah so they signed up for this thing they showed up yeah to do psycho drama but you know and then panic hit or what you know like they get really defensive yeah I mean and they get really defensive or or they get really and I mean these are all defense mechanisms and you know I mean and they're not bad I mean defense mechanisms are also there for a reason yes just like fear is there for a reason and And sometimes you're able to completely let go of it. And sometimes you're only able to let go this much.

And they're all okay. I mean, there is no right or wrong. That's just where you are at that moment. Maybe next time you can let go more. Maybe you can't. It's okay. So that's one aspect. And the other, so it's how the person's reacting to the process,

how complex and multi-layered it is. And I mean, and sometimes someone really, really, really wants to dive in. but they want to talk, you know, like about all the details, and that takes time. So in a one-hour session, they maybe need a longer time. Sometimes also things change, and it's a bit like an onion where you're kind of like unraveling deeper and deeper. It's a process and it's a journey and every time it's different.

Maybe not the steps, but like how long parts take. how much time people need. You can't really rush being open and vulnerable. You can't be like, okay, now. That's not how, you know. Yeah. And yeah, and it depends on, I don't want to say how ready because it kind of puts pressure on the person.

But just where they are that day and the dynamic within that. Right, okay. But that didn't really answer your first question about self-care after care after so a lot of the times I work with uh in Cairo with a group of psychodramatists that I studied with or that kind of graduated from the same program I did and we do kind of big projects so within that someone will call everyone just to make sure that things have settled or I have in the past if there's a protagonist where I felt like there was a big jump or whatever I will call like three, four days later, even if I don't think there's anything, just kind of be like,

hello, how are you? How did it settle? La, la, la, la. And it's also insightful for me because it allows me a peek on the effect, which I may not, you know, like you may say, okay, yeah, fine, it worked, it's done, goodbye. But then, you know, something else opened up or sometimes, you know, I don't know, they met the person they were talking about and they were able to, you know, like, and it's like, or they did and they couldn't and it's frustrating them so yeah so I think it's always nice we do have a list of ongoing therapists that people can go see also so if it's if it's something that's if it's something that requires deeper work or an individual therapy session then we'd recommend a list of potential therapists right and you said that I think different like

different schools like psychodrama as a technique then you that you can use regardless of which school of psychology or analytic perspective you come from. Yeah. So it's often used with psychotherapy. But then I've also seen people from different psychology schools using psychodrama as a technique. And do you think the group setting, we've touched on this a bit, but I just wanted to ask you explicitly, do you think the group setting makes a difference? So, Is that, I mean, we're going to talk about online in a minute, and I want to talk about that. But is the physicality of being in a room with other people?

Because obviously there are several forms of group therapeutic settings, let's say, you know. And they're not all classified classically as psychotherapy or therapy or group theory specifically. You know, there's AA, Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous and all of that, which a lot of people get a lot from the group setting. And then obviously there's individual psychotherapy and individual-based therapies. And I'm assuming in this case the group is essential because you need the group to play those roles of like to personify. Yes. That's that externalisation.

So yes. So the group is definitely essential because then you also hear. hear what you've said, being said back to you. By an actual human. By an actual person that's standing there. So it's not just in your head. It's in front of you. Sometimes also, I mean,

because it's a group, I mean, it is, it's a form of group therapy and it's based on, it's a bit like trying to act in a room on your own. It's a little bit difficult. You're not getting any kind of feedback. But also you need, because part of this pendulized, you know, there's a bit like a penel. where you say, okay, this is the part, this is what it says, and then you see it.

So this is a part of me that's very critical, and then you go, okay, great. So what does it say this critical part of you? And then you start saying things, and then you pick someone to play that part. And they start saying these things. And you go, actually, no, it's a lot meaner. It doesn't talk like it talks more like this. and so you kind of get that feedback and then when you take it outside of you and listen to it or see it played out sometimes things click you know just like when you see something you're like

yeah of course that's where the problem is because that I can see it yeah that part is really mean why is it so mean and then maybe you can connect to a part of you that carries yourself compassion and then you can be like oh it's horrible I don't want anyone to talk to me like yeah yeah or why am I being so mean to myself exactly yeah and then you can connect to another part that's more nurturing and able to kind of help you love yourself and you know and not be critical and work through things yeah yeah yeah before we talk about the online and some other things and could you tell us a little bit about how this is different from theatre of the oppressed and whether it's the same as forum

theatre are they all the same different one under the other okay they're very different Which is the umbrella term? I mean, action methods might include Theatre of the Oppressed, which is a whole school that comes from Brazil, Gustavoal, and it's based on the premise that for any societal change. So if psychodrama is more about your own internal stuff, Theatre of the Oppressed is more of a bigger issue. So it's like issues of teenage pregnancy, you know, it's like a social...

And you get whole communities involved. And you get a whole community involved. And it's based on the premise that the person that's oppressed is the one that has the ability to change the situation. Okay. By changing their reaction. So in that sense, it's the person in psychodrama. It's a part.

Right. And it's not necessarily the part that's oppressed or carrying the most hurt that does the flip. It's the part of you that's a lot of the time that carries yourself compassion that can then compassionately change the dynamic. So Theatre of the Oppressed is also part of a whole range of interactive theatre techniques that use a lot of games, a lot of improv, and always attempt to kind of present a problem or find solutions. Theature of the Oppressed also has the legislative theatre,

which is the same thing, but in the end, so not only does the audience need to find the solution, they also need to see how that can then be taken to legislation. And that is drama. And it's used, yeah. Like that's proper, like, that's theatrical. I mean, that is presented to an audience, so it's entertainment. Right.

I wouldn't say necessarily theatrical. Okay. Because it could be done very simply without huge theatrical techniques. In somebody's living room. It can be done someone's living room. It's usually done in a way where it's easy to move it around so you can go to communities. it's a form of community theatre and have you done that as well

or is it more of the psychodrama stuff that you went around the villages Yeah I have done in my capacity as theatre director A lot of interactive theatre around the villages of Egypt I am not a trained theatre of the oppressed Practitioner I mean you kind of learn to be the person that facilitates And because in theatre of the oppressed

In forum theatre actually The audiences ask is asked to come in and play with the actors. So the jokers specifically facilitate that. Other interactive theatre techniques maybe involve suggestions from the audience or the audience playing some kind of game but not necessarily coming in

as the oppressed character and trying to create a change. Which I've done partly with my political work with talk socialism who are in the northeast of England and I did that work I was at War on One and we were working on actually how we talk about the economy quite simply. Yeah. But that's very different that stuff than, I mean, it's not very different.

I see, I understand the overlap, but what's interesting to me about psychodrama is it's, yeah, it's this externalization of actually an in, something that one person is dealing with. Yeah. And I think the lines are a lot more fluid. I mean, so in the process of telling your story, or sharing or looking at. at your own internal dynamic. You're doing it in a group setting and you get a lot of support from people. So you may assume that you are the only person in the planet that feels this way. But then you suddenly realize that there are seven other people that do too.

In that room. In that room. Yeah. And that is one of. And that opens things up. Just like in an interactive theatre play, the audience kind of gets a bit of that. may think that it's only done that way and then suddenly someone says something else completely. Or they feel they're stuck somewhere and it opens up.

So there's constantly this personal and group that's constantly kind of flowing. So I might present. So I did a show on female gentle mutilation and I remember there's only, the place should only be for girls. I was like, but you know, the community also has boys in it and dads and grandparents and other males. And so this was, so which one is this? Is that theatre of the oppressed? No, what are you talking about now? No, it's interactive theatre.

It's not a theatre of the oppressed. But this isn't, but it wasn't psychodrama either. But it wasn't psychodrama, no. And this was a performance that toured seven, eight hundred times around Egypt. But it was made specifically to allow audiences to discuss and understand female genital mutilation. And the idea came from a very kind of more developmental. perspective. So what usually happens in Egypt is there's like a panel with like a doctor, a religious authority, the head of the district or the or the mayor or whatever. And they kind of sit in a panel and they talk at the audience. And then the audience is usually there to kind of get free lunch or whatever. And people kind of go, yeah, yeah, yeah, we don't do that. Thank you. goodbye at the end and then go ahead and do whatever it is they were going to do so in that aspect

it was a very different like oh what happens if people actually engage with the subject matter where it's entertaining where it's comic and I remember the first time we presented the show before the actual opening night to a panel there's this guy who's like okay I've worked in gentle mutilation for, I don't know how many years. I've never seen anything like that. This is either going to work or they're going to kill you. And I was like, I don't think they're going to kill me. I mean, the welfare of my troop is my problem. And it kind of opened up all these differences in what the development sector says and doesn't say and how they present things and don't present things and it got into this whole like but maybe there was a scene that talked about how

female gentle mutilation affects people's sex life or marital life in that instance and I remember I got called going this is like we're leaving now we're traveling to go perform the next day this is the evening going like yeah I heard this is like the head of the program I heard about this and we don't really say things like that and so can you just can you remove it and put something else i was like i could remove it but i'm not going put anything else like could remove it uh and i'm very happy to kind of stand up and go oops we removed apart so it kind of stops abruptly in this area but why do you want me to remove it and i remember she was like because that's not how we talk about it i was like but i got that from your research

the research that you sent uh so is this a misreading uh did i misunderstand and she was like no no Oh, it's 100% correct. And then why do you want me to remove it? She's like, because we've never said that. I feel like this is the conversation that's been had in a thousand situations in conservative countries. Probably. But you weren't, you know, you live to tell the tale.

Yes. And I was like, okay, tell you what. How about we do it this once? And she's like, yeah, okay, if you can do it once and test it, fine. That's okay, yeah, do it. I'm like, okay, we're going to do it once and then we'll see. So very cheekily, I stopped the show. And I was like, you guys, there's a very.

juicy scene that comes out. It's not. It's a comic slapstick scene that's going to take place now. But I've been told that you guys are not ready and that you're not going to take it very well and that we really shouldn't be presenting crap like that in front of people. And I'm kind of like, no, what? What? No, yeah, do it. And I was like, yeah, no, I can't. I'm sorry. And we're just, and they're like, no, no, no, no, do it. I'm like, okay, fine. So it's, it's your responsibility. You know, I have nothing to do with this. And they were like, yes, yes, yes. Yes, do it. Anyway, we did it and it did what it was supposed to do. And we've never not done that. Okay. That's great. And you're still here. And I'm still here and the team is still here.

And I have a really good relationship with this person who wanted to stop that now. And you've not had a fatwa by the local sheikh on your head or something. We've never had. Fantastic. No. Well done you. Thank you. Great story. Yeah. And it's amazing to have done like such a big tour of like rural villages anyway. So I absolutely love that story. Right. Let's come slightly back to the psycho drama side. So tell us a bit about how this works online.

Because in the pandemic, of course, you couldn't get people in a room. But you said to me when we first had a chat that you actually made it work with physical objects. So can you tell us a bit about how that works? Yes. So with the pandemic, there's all this like, you know, people need support and you can't really get people in a room. You're not supposed to see anybody. So I was like, okay, how about I try doing it online with objects? So more like play therapy, but still using the same process.

So people wouldn't hear things, but we could imagine together because we all have cameras. So you use a camera and kind of a surface. and I'd ask people to... So you had a group, so... No, no, no, I did individual ones. So one-on-one. So this is one-on-one. This is one-on-one.

So people would say, okay, I want to... Yeah, there's this part of me that's really angry and it's, you know, and whatever, they bring an object, and maybe it's like a huge bottle. Mm-hmm. And you go, okay. And there's a part of me that's really loving and self-hearted. compassionate that doesn't really feel like it can deal with this anger and they kind of put a tiny little candle

on the other end of the table. Right, so hold on. So people are signing up for this. Do they know that they're going to have to do things with objects in their house? Yes. Okay, so you tell them, what do you tell them in advance? They've signed up to a session. What are, how are they preparing?

Well, for the online ones, because they're online and I was kind of aware that there was a lot of things happening online and I didn't want to spend hours and hours and hours online and the connection could cut, blah, blah, blah. So I asked people who wanted to sign up, they had to tell me what they want, like they need to come to the session knowing what they wanted to work on. Which problem they wanted to work on?

Issue. Yeah, I mean, sorry, I'm using your terminology. So yeah. And it was also a whole range of issues. There was also some people that show up with abuse or trauma of that sort, other people that I have a part of me that's really childish that every time my partner says something giggles hysterically and it makes men think I'm weird. Okay.

To, yeah. So there's a whole range of things and we were able to do them all just with all. objects online. So you see the dynamic from the way you place the objects. You can very easily change where the objects are. You get to be the object and then imagine it being played out. So it's a little bit because in a room you would see it. Of course. So what are you telling people in the session? So you're saying to them move. So what the bottle is what? Like the bottle I mean I don't I don't say much. I moderate the happening of it. So I try not and not. And not say a lot

because it really is about this person being comfortable and kind of going through their own realisations so I might see it and be like ah okay this needs to move that's where the solution is but that's not useful to tell someone

they need to get to that point otherwise I'm not really helping them yeah I'm just trying to imagine how it actually works I'm sitting here and I've got a problem I want to work with I'm looking at you on the screen and I've got you know a watch representing

What's, what, like, what are the, I think you've given examples already, but I've got three objects. Okay, so it doesn't start with the objects. Okay. It starts with what you want to work on. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. Is there, do you want to give it a shot? I mean, I'm, I'm, I want to something. I do. I have, I have a huge issue with my, my twin sister. Okay. Who I'm ridiculously jealous of. Okay. So tell us the story of this twin sister. So my twin. You might want to pick something that's real. No, I'm not going to. pick something. You're not going to pick something. No. How about I pick something that's real? I mean, fine. Yeah. If you want to, yeah. Yeah, yeah, sure. I have a problem. I really want to

be assertive at work, but then I keep thinking that that's really bad and I shouldn't be. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's what we're going to work on. So then we'd start with, okay, so there's a part that wants to be really assertive and we'd pick an object for this part that wants to be assertive whatever it's i'm just looking at what's on the table it's a big box of Kleenex okay yeah tissue paper really big in the center of the table it wants to be assertive that's why it's coming here and then there's a part of me that every time i decide to be assertive suddenly panics and i decide to get a big plate and put it over the Kleenex. So that's the dynamic. Can you see it? Yes. Yeah? Really big. A mosquito net. The plate, fine. The plate. This big, big or a big pillow like on top of it. Yeah. And you go, okay, well, then what happens when this huge

pillow? And who decides? Is on top of the, it's the pillow. You do. No, I don't. No, I don't. The person that's working. Okay. I'm doing both parts. It's very confusing. The person, the person who's working on. So, you would facilitate and say, okay, so now there's this other part. What are you going to use as that other part? Exactly. And they're going to say the pillow. Yeah, and they're going to put the pillow on top. Yeah, and we can both see it.

I'm sure even your listeners can see it. You have a big box of tissue paper and over a huge pillow. And you go, I don't know why I'm not able to assert myself. Do we get to? Do we get to? I think the answer is quite clear. Right. At this point, we don't set the pillow on fire.

No, we don't set the pillow on fire. Right. But we see, okay, so what can we do to help the part that wants to assert itself? Assert itself. So clearly we need to remove the pillow that's on top of it. Yeah? And we cannot kill parts of ourselves. Right. Okay.

So there's no, yeah. No, but we can work on this very critical part or this very scared part and trying to and unpack it and maybe sometimes we discover that it's not actually a huge pillow, it's a mix of lots of things together that create this huge pillow. Or maybe we can ask the fear, tell the fear that it's okay. There's also part of me that knows exactly what it's going to say and has the credentials and is able to express. So now I have these three parts that are my strengths that kind of come around and support the tissue paper and remove from under the pillow. And so you can't change the objects once you've picked them.

So I can't suddenly go, no, I don't think it's the tissue box. The tissue box is not my assertiveness. I think it's the plastic water bottle. You could. I mean, some people do say that when they see it. They go, actually, no, that's not the dynamic. And that's fine. But when it's correct, you know, like the person knows.

Yes, this is what it's like. Yes. And then... Do people get violent with objects? No, everyone's well-behaved in your online sessions. I just keep on thinking. I mean, no, no one's set fire to anything. Right.

I just check it. Not sure where the setting fire. Maybe we'll explore this offline. Okay. But, but yeah. So basically what happens is the person then realizes that they have strength that can help support and then maybe they can ask the pillow,

which was fear and very critical of the situation to and kind of be like, okay, thank you. We realize that you're helping me and trying to stop me from doing something that's crazy. But look, we have all these strengths. We've got it under control. Can we just ask you to maybe not be on top of the Kleenex box but next to it?

Next to it. As opposed to fling the pillow on the other end of the room? No, because what would happen if you fling the pillow? It will come back and rebound. Exactly. And it'll come back even stronger. Yeah. So, yeah, the pillow will get a jetpack and will fly back. Right. Okay. I'm liking this. So you put it next to it and then you try that out for size. And sometimes people say, actually, no, I can move it a little bit further.

It's okay. It is happy to take a step back now. Or it can, or the people's feelings can be like, no, actually. No, no, no. It needs to stay on top. Right. And then you. realize that that's not enough. There needs to be further exploration. So maybe as... So in this example that you gave, so it's like,

I want to be assertive at work, but there is something, there's a part of me that's saying that is wrong and that's bad. So so far we've had the clean, the box of tissues is that I want to be assertive. The pillow that we don't want to throw away because they'll come back on a jetpack

as the no, this is bad. What would you, what would, like, let's flesh out a third example. What would the third example be like fear or somebody else's voice? I even noticed while I was giving the example,

I kind of fluctuated between fear and critical. And if my client or the protagonist was doing that, I may ask them to separate the two. So is it really one big pillow or is it a part that's afraid and another part that's critical? Okay. Combined forces and maybe explore that. So they might understand it as negative.

like negative, bad, anxiety-inducing and you as the practitioner is trying to unpack that. And the idea would be, I mean, if it's that simple, the idea would be that the person doing this reaches the point where they're able to say, okay, yes, this is, this is not real, I hear you, thank you. Thank you, Pillow. Yeah, thank you, Pillow, thank you fear, thank you for being there. But I'm going to ask you to just, you know, take a stand on the side. You can still intervene. if you think things are going really badly. Don't get on top of the box of dishes. But please, yeah, but please give me a moment or a day to try this out.

Yeah, and kind of, and yeah, I mean, there are moments when people go, oh, of course. Yeah, yeah, no, it's fine. Let's leave them there. And other moments where people can't and you need to unpack more. Mm-hmm. I love it. All I'm going to dream of is this pillow. Pillow with the jetpack that's coming back if you throw it.

on the other sides of the room. That's great. Thank you so much for that example. We're getting towards the end of the show. Thank you. Yeah, this has been really good. Just, I'm interested in how you came to this. So why did you come to this technique?

I came to this technique by pure coincidence. So I studied theatre and psychology and I kind of kept them separate. And in my head, I was working with children at a center for children's therapy and tutoring and assessment in the mornings. And that was kind of my morning life. And in the evening, I was doing theater and I had a troupe. And I was like, I'm going to direct a play every two years. And then two, and I kind of had this, like, fictitious schedule in my life.

as enthusiastic, 21-year-old me. And then... Someone said, you should be combining these things. And at some point, that's what happened. So the center I was working on started wanting drama for the kids. Because, yeah, it's a great activity for socializing and working on social skills, developing ideas, team building, expression. I mean, you know, it's great for a whole world. range of potential things the kids needed to work on and at the same time I was also kind of

being drawn into this world of inclusive theatre which is about working with people different disabilities or different abled bodies and that would include I mean that's pretty big in the UK so that would include a range of disabilities and people without disabilities necessarily working together on equal grounds to create a show together and present it. and so they were kind of being mixed and I remember a lot of the time people would be like oh so you do a cycle drama I'm like I don't know what that is I don't what is that

and then one day Ben Rivers who's Australian in English showed up in Cairo and we were meeting to talk about interactive theatre and and troops of the sort and then and he's like well, I'm a, I'm, you know, that's part, one of the certifications I hold as a therapist and

psychotherapist and someone who does psychodrama and part of his completion of his, what's it called, right to work had a certain amount of hours. He had to complete teaching, uh, psychodrama. And he's like, well, yeah, I mean, why don't you come to a session? You get to find out what it is. And I go, okay, fine, yeah, four day. Okay, yeah, I'll do four days. So what? I'll dive in the deep end. I can, it's theater, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I show up and there's like a circle at the beginning where everyone kind of shares why they're here, what their expectations are. And people are saying things like, yes, I'm here to work on, I don't know what. And I'm like, huh? I'm just here to find out what this is. Work, work on what? What are we talking about? And I remember he went,

yeah, yeah, it's fine, it's okay. And, yeah, and after that, I kind of did a longer course and then did a three-year diploma with him and started practicing myself. So, yeah, definitely guided by my curiosity. I'm like, work on what? I'm working on what? I'm here for therapy? What are we doing? And so you can study this as part of the larger sort of what's called

arts therapy now, which has movement and dance and creative therapies together, is that right? So it's like a discipline that you can study. You can and you cannot. There are programs that offer, yeah, definitely. So like you'd have like play therapy, art therapy, dance and movement therapy, drama therapy, and a bunch of other music therapy. And you can, there are degrees that do each one separately and then there are more combined creative certifications. Yeah. And I mean, we can put some links in the show notes if we need to do some research.

But I don't know if you know, how do you find a psychodramist or a practitioner in the UK? Like what would listeners do if they want to either learn about this or they want to get, be on the receiving end of that kind of therapy themselves? I would say they probably need to go to the British Psychodrama Association. and I think I'm not sure I'm assuming here so this maybe needs to be checked that they can then ask for a session or find a therapist near them

I've no clue how big or small it is I just know that it does exist and I have feeling there might be a London based one also but it's a British thing so there'll be stuff all around the UK I don't know how big it is we'll put a link in the show notes to that to that organization and people can check it out for themselves.

This is great. I'm going to definitely dream of the tissue box and the pillow now. Nadaseb, thank you so much for coming on ACFM and talking to us today. Thank you. This was lots of fun. This is acid man. I don't know.