Acquisitions Anonymous - #1 for business buying, selling and operating - $5mm Truck Hardware Manufacturer - Acquisitions Anonymous 188

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

Michael Girdley (@girdley), Mills Snell (@thegeneralmills), and Bill D’Alessandro (@BillDA) review a Truck Hardware Manufacturer for sale. Check it out:  https://mailchi.mp/websiteclosers/15-year-international-manufacturer-of-custom-flat-tank-support-trucks-35-repeat-order-rate-1350000-aov-commercial-government-clientele?e=42dc999128-----Thanks to our sponsor!This episode is sponsored by Acquisition Lab. Acquisition Lab, created by Walker Deibel author of Buy Then Build: How to Outsmart the Startup Game, is an accelerator with a highly vetted cohort-based educational and support community for people serious about buying a business. After going through the Lab's month-long intensive, you have ongoing access to almost daily Q&A sessions with advisors, regular live deal review forums with Walker, hand-picked vendors for your deal team, and a very active Slack group with other searchers on this path. Our team personally understands how to buy a business and will help navigate all the complexities of the process, as well as provide a trusted framework, tools, and resources to support you from search to close. The Acquisition Lab recently celebrated its 70th business being acquired and well over $100m in aggregate transaction value. The Lab is there to stand by your side, so you can take the right action (at the right time) and avoid wasting countless hours trying to "go it alone".For more information, check out acquisitionlab.com or email the Lab's director Chelsea Wood, [e-mail] you love Acquanon and want to see our smiling faces? Subscribe to our Youtube channel.Do you enjoy our content? Rate our show!Follow us on Twitter @acquanon Learnings about small business acquisitions and operations.Subscribe to weekly our Newsletter and get curated deals in your inboxAdvertise with us by clicking here Do you love Acquanon and want to see our smiling faces? Subscribe to our Youtube channel. Do you enjoy our content? Rate our show! Follow us on Twitter @acquanon Learnings about small business acquisitions and operations. For inquiries or suggestions, email us at [e-mail]

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Acquisitions Anonymous. I am one of your co-hosts, Bill Dallisandro. And this week, you've got all three co-hosts, and we dive into a cool business that manufactures custom trucks for the oil and mineral extraction industry. And this one's really cool because, you know, we peel back some layers and say, you can't just look at this business. You've got to look at its end markets and its competition. So we talk about, you know, kind of how to evaluate technology risk, how to evaluate end market risk. And then we all also talking about the challenges of buying small businesses with big balance sheets. So if you're interested in those two topics, I think you really like this episode of Acquisitions Anonymous.

This episode is sponsored by Acquisition Lab. Acquisition Lab created by Walker Debel, author of Buy Than Build, How to Outsmart the Startup Game, is an accelerator with a highly vetted cohort-based educational and support community for people serious about buying a business. After going through the lab's month-long intensive, you have ongoing access to almost daily Q&A sessions with advisors, regular live deal review forums with Walker, handpick vendors for your deal team, and a very active Slack group with other searchers on this path. Our team personally understands how to buy a business and will help navigate all the complexities

of the process, as well as provide a trusted framework tools and resources to support you from search to close. The Acquisition Lab recently celebrated 70th business being acquired and well over $100 million in aggregate transaction value. The lab is here to stand by your side so you can take the right action at the right time and avoid wasting countless hours trying to go it alone. For more information, check out AcquisitionLab.com. Link is in our show notes or email the labs director, Chelsea, at chelseawood at chelsea at buy then build.com. Hey man, how are you? Good morning. How are you? Doing very well. Do you want to give us a beard check in? It's looking kind of not too shabby, but not too, or not too shagby, but not too trimmed. I will say my kids have given me feedback

They're like, we wish you were as excited when you came home as you are on the podcast. And I was like, oh my gosh, that really hurts. But also we're like, this is like a production. Like, we have to be excited or else we'll put people to sleep. We maybe already do that anyways. It's a really good point. That's what I tell people when they're doing podcast. Like you feel like you're bringing a 10 out of 10.

But on the other side, it feels like you're bringing like a 5 out of 10. So you have to do it. But the danger is you don't want to turn into like, welcome to morning. on the crazy wacky zoo here on Tampa's 103 points out. Like, you don't want to do that. I can't do it very well, but like, you don't want to do that. That's just too much. So I think this is, we have a deal today and it's a category of deal that we had saved

because we wanted you to be here. And maybe Bill will drop in from the top rope at some point, but he's not here yet. So we started without him. But I'll pull it up here and it is, it's off of website closers for some reason. But it is definitely not a, a website anything, unless I misunderstand it. So it has a picture of a truck, and it is a 15-year international manufacturer

of custom flat tank support trucks, and the highlights are 35% repeat order rate, 135% average order value. I think AOV is what that means, commercial and government clientele. And they are asking $6 million for it, and it comes from website closers. So far, I'm very concerned about

why this deal has gone through website closers as opposed to like a brokerage that specializes in, I don't know, trucks. Yeah. So here, let me read about it. So website, or so I'm sorry, asking price is $6 million, earnings is $750,000.

So what is that? They're trading it like eight times earnings is what they're asking for. And they sell about $5.3 million in total size. So those are the numbers. So website closers, trademarked, presents an international manufacturer of unique solutions from flat tank support trucks, water well development trailers,

flat tank vans and bodies, and sonic van tender support trucks. They have been in business for over 15 years and have a large Rolodex of past clients. I'm just pausing there because the word Rolodex is like taking me back. It's not their email list. It's their Rolodex. Have you ever seen like the memes that come along and it's like they take all of the things that used to be like independent like appliances? and then they show how the cell phone or the computer

have consumed all of those things. Like, that's such a good meme. And so I don't know if you're old enough, but for a while, that meme used to just be all the things that the personal computer took over and Rolodex was one of those. But then eventually, like, the memes now are ones

where, like, it's all the stuff that the personal computer took over, and then the phone took all of those from the personal computer. Like, which I kind of like, it's like a bigger whale came along to eat the bigger fish, you know,

like finding Nemo? Anyway. Oh, yeah. Okay. Their customer service, low competition in the space and knowledge of the industry has resulted in a 35% repeat order rate by clients,

which is important given the average order value is $135,000. And this doesn't include the price of the truck. Let's see here. My goodness, this thing is really long. I'm just going to kind of skip forward. Yes. Since the beginning, management has taken

a systemic approach to the operational needs of each driller it works with. It's an approach that maximizes efficiency and productivity at the drill site, saving time and money. All modifications are, performed at a 10,000 square foot manufacturing facility, which includes office storage and painting spaces. The manufacturing facility is privately owned and not part of the sale, and the business

can be easily relocated if preferred by the buyer. The typical customer falls into one of four primary buckets, water well drillers, mining and mineral exploration, directional drilling, and the geothermal industry. The managing partner is a hands-on leader who oversees staff welding, fabricating, designing, painting, and fulfilling orders, and once an order is accepted, building the final product takes around two weeks. They have a rudimentary marketing strategy. Then they go into some of the website here. And this manufacturing company is represented by website closers.com, digital platform M&A, and listing 3003. So I think that's about it. Oh, they say that given the massive upside potential available through marketing, especially product lines, this business is a

$50 million revenue business just waiting to happen. And they recommend you put and pay for some Google ads to grow the business. And Bill's here. I mean, we're doing an e-commerce business? No. But it's website closeders. This is what is really throwing me. Yeah, I know. Michael was like, I don't know why it's listed here.

But we messaged about this deal earlier in the week, and we're like, this is kind of cool. It's a truck. They're a, like, specialty truck manufacturer on flatbed trucks, but it's for some reason on website closers. The way they talk about this, they say it's flat ranked flat tank support trucks. but to me when I look at this, they basically appear to take truck frames that they buy from the truck manufacturers, they show up to this 10,000 square foot manufacturing facility,

and then the staff, they are puts custom, like, well-drilling material or equipment on top of the back of these trucks. Is that how this business works, Mills? Yeah, yeah, these are retrofit businesses, and they're super cool because, like, you know, international and, you know, like, Peter, Bill and all the big names, they're the ones who manufacture, you know, semis. And they make the cab and the chassis. And it usually comes in different specifications. But then everything that happens on

the back of the truck is very, very, very specific. So like we've done Smash My Trash in the past. Smash My Trash Manufacturers or they have a manufacturing partner that makes the thing that goes on the back. But they're not actually making vehicles. That's hyper-specialized. But well drilling is definitely one of these that you'll see around town. It has this big thing on the back that. tilts up and then drills a well or pile drivers or, you know, some of it is just truly flatbeds and they just move stuff. But it's kind of anything you can imagine. I mean, fire trucks are basically this way, right? It's just a big specialty apparatus that sits on the back of a pre-manufactured vehicle. It's a retrofit business, very, very niche, but kind of can be really

interesting in certain cases. So I have a buddy that does this, but they do cement mixers. Yeah, yeah. It's a really interesting business. I've toured their facilities. facility. And it is actually surprising how much engineering work goes into these type things. Like typically you'll have like, you need to have at least one or two staff engineers to be there just like producing drawings, making sure it all gets put together, doing specs and all that kind of stuff. And what's interesting about my buddy, they're at a bigger scale in this. I think they're probably like eight to ten times the size, at least the facility I walked around. They have like a paint shop. They have like an engineering like department.

And then a lot of what they're doing is actually in an even bigger, like, facility that happens across the border down by Monterey. So, like, you know, your typical kind of McEleadora thing, like, the stuff that goes on here in the United States is mostly just, like, repairs or some final assembly stuff for the big, like, cement mixture bodies that are all coming from, you know, across the border. But I think that ties into something that's really important with a manufacturing business like this is, you know, typically you exist at a very small scale like this because you're in a small niche. And if you want to grow the business, you either need to find a bigger niche

or like you're in trouble. And cement mixers, I think, are, there's a million more cement mixers than there are water drilling rigs, right? I mean, I don't know what the ratios, but I would guess it's 10 to one, which has me worried about the buy Google ads to make this business bigger strategy. And they also say you could do some Facebook ads, Mills, you know, because that works if you want to sell drilling rinks. It's interesting, too, with the, you know, specific nature of what they do, geography plays a part in this as well because if there's somebody who's making these on the East Coast and there's somebody who's making them on the West Coast, it's cost prohibitive for you to buy it across country and ship it even if the prices are even nominally better. One thing

that's cool about these businesses is because so much of what they're putting on the back of the truck is kind of custom or semi-custom or proprietary, the long tail of maintenance on these things is amazing. Like, let's just say there's a toolbox that they've built, you know, into the back that kind of sits under the flatbed. And it's maybe, you know, designed specifically to hold something that's unique to the work that you're doing, like maybe hoses, right, that are specific to well drilling or something. When that box breaks, it's not like you can just go to lows and swap it out. Now, most people who are in this business are very handy and they kind of, you know, DIY a lot of this stuff anyways, are just weld it themselves. But

long tail of maintenance on some of these, you know, specific parts that are put in is fascinating because the installed base of these trucks, they kind of mention it, right? Their average order value is a really eye-popping, like, wow, that's amazing, $135,000. They're not selling that many trucks a year when you do the math. But the installed base gives you this amazing long tail. Now, they're not repairing the engine of the truck, you know, or the cab or anything that goes inside. it, but they can sell replacement parts on some of these things. And it's even so specific, I googled one of these terms that they had said. And it doesn't come up on Google. Actually, the biz by sell listing comes up when you Google that specific terminology. And that tells you

that, one, like, there is a very, very, very small tam, total addressable market on this vehicle. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that the thesis of buy Google ads doesn't probably pan out. So this is the weird thing to me, and maybe This is a very website closers thing to say because every other business they sell, the answer is run more ads. It's an e-commerce business, right? So they just can't help themselves. But following the paragraph where they talk about you got to spend more money on ads is potentially the real problem is, which is not in fact that they have, they don't need to spend more money on ads. They don't have the capacity to fill the orders.

The very next paragraph says the business is currently turning down jobs each month based on capacity. Hiring additional personnel will immediately allow it to accept those jobs. and increase the top and bottom lines. So you really don't need to be, if you're already turning down work, you really shouldn't be spending money on ads at all. But the question here is if they're actually turning down work, and this business, this business owner is about to sell his business and knows that every additional truck he builds,

the EBITDA from that truck gets multiplied by three into the value of his business. And all he has to do is hire another welder. Why has he not done it? right so either this is bullshit and in fact there's not a backlog or be there is some limit that is not in fact as easy as just post a wanted ad and hire somebody right there's got to be a reason here because this guy has every incentive to to maximize that backlog into the sale of his business i will tell i will tell you what the number one complaint of every friend i have who owns a business that looks like this one is they can't hire enough workers like that is their

That is, that's the, that's limiting. It's a little bit more complicated than just hire the welder, right? Welders are hard to hire. But it's, you know, hire the welder and then where do you stick him? They're probably completely full in the shop that they're in. They don't have another boot to put somebody. Their product line is maxed out. It's not just the welder, but also the powder coating guy or the guy in the spray booth

or the person they outsource that stuff too. They're really behind too. And this guy's going, look, I might have two or three more years if this thing doesn't sell, but I don't want to double down and invest a million bucks. I do $7 million a year in earnings, or $700,000 a year in earnings. I don't want to invest another million bucks into expanding the product line and all the work that goes along with it. Perfect scenario, right, for a new buyer, but you can't pay an eight times multiple for the opportunity to grow this guy's business into something that it's not. And then I think there's also something worth talking about with

the earnings multiple here is these are the type of businesses that because of the supply chain problems during COVID could charge whatever they wanted. If somebody needed a drilling rig and you were the only one that could provide it, like you see it like suddenly they're running at 40, 50% net margins on stuff. And I wouldn't surprise me when you dig into the historical on this, that this goes back a few years and like they haven't been able to get, they've been getting much better margins for the past few years. There's also, I want to point out, the pain in the ass factor of this business. So, like, if you put one of these drilling rigs on the back of,

on the back of a truck, right, and install it, and, like, one of your suppliers doesn't come through with, like, one of the parts that you need. A hydraulic, yeah, a hydraulic hose, right? Or, you know, a piston. Yeah. Like, your life sucks. So, like, my buddy, he ended up actually building his own fab shop for, like,

metal and stuff like that in part of the, they have, like, a thousand foot fab shop where it's like, okay, well, our supplier in Canada can't get us this thing. So we're just going to build our own. And like they would do that over it. And so like, and he would, we walked around his shop and he's like, okay, this one's 99.3% done.

This one's 100% done, except we're missing this hose and going from there. Which was just like, oh man, like, why am I not doing software? That's what I thought of when I was walking out. I think that every day, Michael. I think that every day. The thing also that's important in diligence,

about this business. And we've done a couple what I'll call kind of, you know, sell picks to the miners type businesses on the domestic oil drilling boom. You know, we've done some pumping businesses and, you know, these guys, you know, are tank support. The domestic oil drilling business is very volatile. It is volatile based on the price of oil, you know, whether this stuff is profitable to even turn the well on. A lot of times when oil's prices are too low, you know, these wells are not economic. Or, you know, if it's not oil, whatever your commodity that you're pulling out of the ground, right? If it's not, if the price is not in the right place, it's not economic to run the wells, which means you don't need more trucks.

But when the price is in the right place, you're running all your wells and you're digging more wells, you know, and you're filling more tanks and all this stuff and you need as many trucks as possible because you are literally pulling dollar bills out of the ground, right? And that's when these businesses can charge whatever they want. They have great margins, to your point, Michael. So you would, and it's also oftentimes very dependent on the cost of having drilled each individual drill and the cost of it well and operating it. So there are different break-evens in different regions. So you really want to understand, you know, what regions, what local markets, you need to understand the downstream commodity market of your customers because this is generally a boom and bust, you know, industry, at least in the states it has been historically.

So this also, you know, there's a pattern we've seen where we look at deals and you're like, wait, why are we seeing this? Like, this is a pretty old economy market. And, you know, my buddy, and I keep going back to the like one business I actually know in this space. So I keep doing that. But like my buddy, he's grown into multiple offices. You want to why? Because he bought some guy like this out eight years ago. And they have another office in wherever, right?

Some place out in the middle of nowhere bill that you wouldn't care about like Greenville, South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina. Like something you can't even remember the name of. It's so in the middle of nowhere. But anyway, so like, why are we seeing this? Like, I think that's another thing to understand. Like, this does not pass initial smell test of the, why am I the lucky buyer test? So, like, if I was looking at this, I'd be like,

wait, why did all the other people who would make this stuff not buy this business? And I have some hypotheses, but like, there's, there's got to be a reason. This thing's on website closers and not truck manufacturer brokerage.com. because, you know, it's highly likely if this was a serious listing or there wasn't something horribly wrong with this business, it would show up on one of those ones where the transactions really do happen with these type of buyers.

Do you think there's technology risk in this? You know, they seem to have like kind of their own all in one truck. Like they've got a way they make it. And, you know, Mills, you said that's good for, you know, MRO long-term revenue. But it's also possible that, you know, I know there's a lot of money in the mineral extraction industry and the tech moves fast. And it's possible that maybe, you know, you don't need an all-on-one truck until you get to a certain size. Maybe someone else, and then you get specialized trucks. You know, you need to really diligence the technology risk on this market. You know, I talk to,

I really want to talk to some customers. You know, why do you buy this truck? What other trucks do you look at? You know, what are the alternatives of this truck? Does this truck, how does this truck help you save money? How would something else help you save money? You know, why do you choose to buy this one. That's what you've got to understand here. This is a piece of technology that serves business like anything else. It helps them to do their job and to make more money. I want to understand what the alternatives are. One thing I really like about this, this is the type of manufacturing that is not going anywhere. Like you cannot, this is not something you're going to make in China and you're going to put it in a container and ship it over here, right? Like, because you still have to

have to have, I mean, even it's very fundamental. It's like that truck has to come from Detroit. And it comes, I don't know. Have you guys ever seen how the trucks like show up when somebody does aftermarket like this? Anyway, I'm sure you have, but I'll tell the audience. They just show up and it's basically like a cab, some tires, and like a long metal piece on the back where they attach the bed to it when you have a custom truck like this put together. So anyway, like you can't go get this, like you can't manufacture this very specialized piece of equipment that has to fit specifically for the for the buyer's needs and it has to be attached to that truck. You can't go make that in China. ship it over here. Plus the thing weighs like a bazillion pounds. Like, it's just not possible.

So I love that aspect of this. Like, if I bought this, I would not be worried about this manufacturing going anywhere except for maybe northern Mexico. Like, it's not going any further than that. I think the other cool thing about this business and this type of business is like the, where they sit in the kind of overall framework of distribution. So obviously dealers and dealerships play a huge model, you know, play a huge role in just kind of like consumer vehicles. And then also in really heavy equipment like Caterpillar, John Deere, you know, Husk Varna, all the big equipment manufacturers. They work under kind of an exclusive, you know, dealer and dealership distribution model. And it's a lot of the kind of value gets gobbled up by

those big names. You're right in the. middle of that with this because it's a retrofit business that no dealership, like many excavators and, you know, skid steers and forklifts, all of that has been aggregated and a lot of the value is extracted, I think, in the dealership model because the middleman is there. And so the manufacturer gets kind of squeezed or the manufacturer just moves up market and vertically integrates and they become, you know, kind of a quasi dealer. In this, in this segment, the retrofit segment, it's not big enough for anybody to go spend their time rolling up a distributor and a dealership. But there's kind of two sides of that coin. If you want to buy,

you know, a John Deere tractor, there are dealerships, there are salespeople, there's dedicated staff, there's proprietary maintenance, proprietary parts, all those things that make it very easy to kind of onboard, but also very expensive. If you want to buy a piece of equipment like this, you probably already know the guy you need to buy it from and you're calling them. A salesperson is not hounding you because there's not one salesperson that could cover all the geographic territory that would justify, you know, a actual installed base. So I like that because it not just is the business mom and pop, but the whole industry, the whole segment of your customer base and any potential competitors is mom and pop. So do we like it? Just not at 6x?

I would be happy to own this business at a much lower price. Oh, it's at 8x. They do 750K and SDE 600, 6 million asking price. Is this one of those things where like you peel back the onion and there's actually the guy is wanting $3 million for the equipment and then has valued the business at a very reasonable 3.5x on top of that? I mean, we see it all the time, right? Well, there's real estate in it.

Like, is there something else embedded in this person? purchase price. He can't seriously want eight times for this business. It may be that like Michael mentioned, he's got a bunch of, you know, he's got a bunch of kind of work in progress that is not really inventory because it's not spare parts, but it's stuff that is kind of almost ready to be sold or something along those lines that hasn't been booked as revenue yet. So you kind of need to tease that out, right? It's possible this is not really 8x. You're saying it maybe 12x? No, but like if you're like, let's say he says, okay, hey, look, I want six million bucks,

but four million of it is for the business and I want you to pay me two million dollars for all the stuff that I have sitting and ready to roll out of the door or it'll be ready to roll out of the door. It's balance sheet items. The problem is, is that on a $5 million revenue business like this, the balance sheet is going to be woefully inadequate to actually understand what's going on. Yeah, you're going to have to show up on site and point at it and go, how much is that worth? You know? Yes, yes. And when he says it's worth $135,000, it's like, well, that's, that's not your cost, right? That's the revenue. That's the price somebody's going to pay you for it. And you don't know enough to know, has this thing been

sitting here two years? Like, is it an outdated model and nobody wants it because you've started improving it and making something better and now you can't move this thing? Like, obsolete inventory bill, you deal with this all the time, right? Somebody's like, hey, I have $100,000 worth of stuff. you should buy it and you realize actually it's only worth 30,000, and that's if I can sell it, which I can't. Right. Right. Which this is the hard thing about all these kind of asset heavy businesses here, right,

that have a high dollar value of working capital, which means that if you, in general, right, when you buy a business, you should be getting a normalized level of working capital included in the purchase price. The problem for this guy, though, is that a normalized amount of working capital is the entire value of the business, which, you know, means there's no enterprise value left. just the value of the working capital. And so it makes it very hard to transact these businesses where so much of the value. And the problem is, right, because a small business is selling in a low multiple or it should. So at 4x, if this is a much larger business is trading at 10x EBITA, right,

your balance sheet is going to be a smaller fraction of the purchase price. But at, you know, these small businesses, the balance sheet, if it's a balance sheet heavy business, the balance sheet can be the whole purchase price. And sellers really hate that. But the problem for you as a buyer is if you buy this, if you buy his business and then all So you buy his working capital and you succeed and you grow it, on the back end, when you go to sell this thing, your buyer is not going to pay you separately for working capital. Right? So you're going to eat that instantly.

As soon as you pay him for it, you're not going to get paid for it on the back end. So you have immediately eaten whatever value you pay him for the balance sheet. The one thing that I think could help this, and I don't know if this is happening in this business or not, is this business owner? purchasing the semis from, you know, Peterbilt or whoever. And then are they turned key, probably for $135,000 they are, right? They're buying that piece of equipment. They're putting it on their balance sheet.

And then they're retrofitting it and selling something turned key. That makes the customer experience better. But if at all possible, right, it would be nice to have the customer pay for the vehicle. They're floating it instead of you. Then you retrofit the back of something. for whatever they need, it would dramatically reduce the working capital needs of the business. It would drastically improve their cash conversion cycle. And I don't think they would have to take that big of a hit on margin. So my just data point and my buddy who's in a similar business,

they don't actually pay for the truck and they don't put on their balance sheet. What they do is they have, they do kind of the middle of what you're talking about. They try to make it a great customer experience. So what they do is they go to the client and say, okay, well, this is the truck, we'll work with you, this truck we think we need. Okay, well, we'll call three dealerships and get proposals for them and it might be a Peterbilt or a Jigamajoo or whatever it is type stuff, right, different type, whatever the name of it, whoever's doing it this week. And then they get bids from those and the quotes come in because they're commercial sales. And then they have the client order the truck and then also pay them. So the client does,

it doesn't get on their balance sheet. The client owns the truck, but the truck gets shipped to their facility. And so it works to be that like kind of, you know, seamless way that you're talking about where it's a really good experience for the customer, but they don't front the cash for it. Yeah. Yeah. One question you want to ask, and I know we're going to wrap up, but one question you want to figure out, and the seller will not necessarily give you a straight answer, you have to triangulate and get other reference points, is how niche is what they're doing on the back of the vehicle? Yeah. Because, like, I went on a site visit one time for a business that moved liquid explosives over public roadways.

It was like DOT compliant. And part of the secret sauce, which is not so secret, is that you can't mix them, right? They're volatile substances when they get put together. And so these tanker trucks have different, you know, kind of segments, different valves. And then they're mixed at the point that they're being, you know, put in the ground or whatever that they're going to blow up. And so that business was super interesting because what they made on the. back of the truck. It was a tiny tam, really small total addressable market all over the world. It was like maybe a $500,000 average order value for these. But it's very, very volatile because

capex for these types of businesses, even the big publicly traded ones, just ebbs and flows based on commodity prices. But it was so niche and so specific that they were able to kind of dictate the price because there wasn't really a lot of an alternative. You just don't know in this type of business by asking the seller. You have to go figure out from other sources, how niche is this, and how much wholesale transfer pricing power does the actual kind of retrofitter have. Well, cool. Let's wrap it up the air because we've got to record two episodes today. Otherwise we're going to get behind. But that was a good one. If you enjoyed this episode, send it to a friend. Tell them about the podcast. We are in a never-ending quest to, I don't know,

continue having fun. But tell your friends about it. All right, catch you all later.