Acquisitions Anonymous - #1 for business buying, selling and operating - A SaaS business at 2.8x EBITDA (So cheap!) - Acquisitions Anonymous 203

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

 Girdley (@girdley) and Bill (@BillDA) review a declining software business that is available for a cheap multiple.  Check it out here: https://quietlight.com/listings/12988647/-----Thanks to our sponsor!This episode is sponsored by HoldCoConference, the conference exclusively focused on HoldCo Entrepreneurs and Executives. This conference is where Holding Companies meet, learn, scale and grow. From tech to Home Services, Holdco Entrepreneurs from around the globe will be meeting in Cleveland this September 18-20th in Cleveland Ohio.Check out holdcoconf.com for more details.Subscribe to weekly our Newsletter and get curated deals in your inboxAdvertise with us by clicking here Do you love Acquanon and want to see our smiling faces? Subscribe to our Youtube channel. Do you enjoy our content? Rate our show! Follow us on Twitter @acquanon Learnings about small business acquisitions and operations. For inquiries or suggestions, email us at [e-mail]

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Acquisitions Anonymous. This is Bill Dallisandro. I'm one of your hosts. Today, I am with Michael Gurdley, and we talk about a SaaS business that is trading for just 2.8 times. It has a million in EBITDA, and they only want two and a half million bucks for it. So really interesting. I love doing this with Michael because he does the most classic Michael thing. The whole episode, he poops on it, the whole episode. I mean, verifiable for a good reason. But then at the end, he does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He does. He delivers this master strategy that I would never have thought of, but after years in SaaS, Michael comes up with this, and it's a reason to consider buying it. So do stick around to the end. This is a really interesting breakdown of a SaaS business. We also have detours into sumo wrestling and why Michael is a huge fan of that. Philosophy, I compare Taylor Swift to Elon Musk in this one. It's a fun one. I hope you enjoy this episode of Acquisitions Anonymous. This episode is sponsored by the Holdco conference. This is a a conference exclusively focused on holding company entrepreneurs and their executives.

It is where holding companies meet, learn, and scale, and grow. From tech to home services, Holdco entrepreneurs from around the globe will be meeting in Cleveland this September 18th to the 20th, 20th, 2023. And it will be there in Cleveland, Ohio, which has me super excited, also because I will be one of the speakers and attendees of the conference as well. So I encourage you to check out their website and consider joining us there. The website is Holdco, That's H-O-L-D-C-O-C-O-N-F.com. And get more details there and sign up to join us. See you soon.

All right. Welcome to another episode of Acquisition Anonymous. Michael is doing the mystery deal today. I said, okay, what deal we're doing? He said, I'm not even going to show you. So this deal was sent to me by three different people. One is the person said, you've got to do this deal. Second person said, you've got to do this deal on the pod.

because I think I knew what business it is. And they told me. The third person said, I want you to buy it and I'll run it for you. So those are the three. So it is that. Is it a Lego Man business? Oh, man.

The Lego Man business was so cool. It's, Lego Man business is definitely up there with the wine rating business. If people keep asking me, like, what's a good niche business? I'm like, let me tell about this wine rating thing. Like, it's a total scam. It's just like,

that's the kind of scam I wanted to get into. that was a good one I don't know what episode that was but we'll put in the notes or something good stuff and look listeners we are because we have staff again

we are putting links to the deals in the show notes so you should be able to find him if they're still up okay so this is a quiet light deal bill and it is a nine-year-old

SaaS with 86,000 MRI monthly recurring revenue and $1.25 million $1,250 lifetime bill value. So revenue for them is $1.28 million a year. Income is $883,000. And they want to sell the business for a multiple of 2.83 times income. So an asking price of $2.5 million, revenue $1.3 million, income $8,000. Should we just buy this business and flip it for a proper SaaS multiple?

A 2.8X SaaS business? Yes. I'm in true. I don't know. Let's see. Let's see. There may be some surprises here. Okay. I'm listening. I haven't read it yet, but do I have your attention, Bill? Sure answers, yes. You do. Full attention.

Starting in 2014, this well-established email capture SaaS business helps customers convert traffic into valuable leads. This business runs a typical plug-in-based freemium model and generates both monthly and annual recurring revenue by offering additional features to paying customers. This business offers a free WordPress plugin and Shopify app to acquire customers and simplify them. it integrates directly with dozens of top email service providers, including MailChimp,

AWeber, ConvertKit, Clavio, and HubSpot. The business currently has over 1,900 paying customers, $86,000 in MRR, an average customer lifetime value of around $1,250 and a monthly turn rate of 3.2%. The business peaked in 2017 with 540K MRR. However, due to disagreement... Whoa. Okay, so let me slow down there. The business is currently at 8,000,000. 86,000 MRR. At one point, they were at 540,000 MRR. What is that percentage decrease?

It is so high, I can't even do the math. Like 80%. 86 divided by 540. 85% decrease. And a month, let me see something. Okay. However, due to disagreement over the direction of the business, the co-founders put the business on autopilot.

They stopped all active marketing and non-critical development and shifted the focus to another business, which presented a significant larger opportunity. Without active leadership, the business has declined steadily over the last several years. This willful neglect leaves a fantastic opportunity for a new owner to take advantage

of the existing customer base, an email list of 100,000 subscribers, a solid infrastructure and established brand. The sellers are seeking a new owner to takeover and grow the business and are willing to provide supporting guidance for a smooth transition. That is the business.

Okay. So, yeah, so, you know, the multiple sounded amazing. And so we realized that this business is shrinking, like, melting ice cube. So anyway, what do you think? So, okay, so first we said it's 900K of SDE and they're selling for less than three

times and it's SaaS and you go, that's really interesting. But now you realize business in five years has declined 80 to 85 percent and they blame it on neglect. I got to say, I kind of being in this space a little bit, not being in this space, but you being a customer in this space a little bit, don't know if I would call it neglect that is shrinking this space. So what you've got going on is, I don't know which business this is, but it sounds to me like something like a Just Uno type business where Justuno.com, if you guys know what that is, it's basically, if you don't want to do any coding, you just want to pop up to capture emails on your website, like, you drop in one line of JavaScript, and then you go on Justuno.com and you like can configure the way it looks, and then you can route the emails that people put into Clavio or MailChimp or wherever. Total customization, you can set it only to pop up on, you know, the third page view or after 10 seconds of looking at the page or, you know, whatever. That's, I think, what this business does. This is mad competitive. And it got started,

and Just Uno is big and good, but expensive. But then you've got the Clavios of the world, the email providers of the world have historically sucked at this. And, like, their built-in widgets that they give you are terrible. And that's why these businesses popped up. Clavio, at least I know, for one, has gotten notably better, although it's still room to go. The email providers are starting to realize this. So you've got like the Justunos of the world who, they're like, the ones that, like, I maybe originally piloted, like, the spin the wheel for a discount type thing, all the pop-ups you guys have seen on the e-commerce websites, you know, that's like, that's almost always a just-do-it-a-pop-up. So it's something like that, right? Like a Just-Uno style.

I just worry these businesses getting squeezed from all directions. The email providers, integrated offerings are getting better, and then you've got these, like, a big Just-U-N-O on top of you. So the person in the DM said he thinks this business is sumo.com. So before I go there, just to Uno, I think it's important, right? Like the pop-ups, the email capture, they have a full suite of crap. That's what I would describe to try to capture emails and do engagement.

So they have one-time discounts, all that kind of stuff for your e-commerce site. So I understand that. Then sumo.com appears to be just email capture. That's it. And as part of the AppSumo, send Fox, all that kind of stuff, So they are a point solution in a world that appears to look like Just Uno now, which is Just Uno is a full suite.

And Sumo.com is just offering a one point solution, you know, in the grant, in this product portfolio. I think Just Uno is a pretty well-run business. And I think they figured out about five years ago that just being a point solution to capture email was not, was the dead end. And that's why they built the whole suite. At one point, Just Uno was a point solution years ago. And they've really built out the product set. A lot of software engineering. Like, this is not like something you would just buy and like spend $100,000 on. So is this like, this is the whole Noah Kagan thing? Noa Kagan was Absuma, right?

I don't think Noah runs. I think he may own some of it, but I think he's got a CEO and has for a while. And then the former CEO of Absumo is on Twitter too, right? He's like a business coach now. I'm totally blanked on his name. Like he's a good guy. Or he's been nice to me. and he seems like a good guy.

Okay. And then Absumo appears to be a declining, I mean, anyway, this is all theoretical that this is what it is, but that's what the person in the DM said it was. Yeah, I don't think it's fair to say absumo's declining business on a hunch here. And also, even if it were,

this is one part of that portfolio, right? Yeah. Killer domain, though, sumo.com. As a sumo fan, it would be a great domain name to own. It's almost like, oh, I wonder if I could get this domain name somehow. Four-letter word. Do we just gloss over as a sumo fan? Do we just gloss right? Are you a fan of sumo wrestling? Oh, yeah. It's super interesting. Have you, you should totally check it out. It is, it is perhaps the best

spectator sport for busy dads. Like, it's really cool. So just for busy dads? So, I mean, you're a busy dad, too. So I was trying to just relate to you. I mean, other people I'm sure interested in it. But look, here's the thing with Sumo. So, like, number one, it happens, it happens on a regular schedule. It happens

actually overnight in Japan. So you wake up every morning and you see the highlights. And basically, they have a cadence. They do, I think, six major tournaments a year. There's one every other month. And they have a whole kind of tiering and ranking system and all kinds of just fascinating

Japanese cultural politics, anachronisms, all this kind of stuff that play into the whole thing. And it's like super weird. So like you look at, for example, like professional cycling or NBA, like these are actually sports trying to promote themselves globally.

Like the Japanese are like, no, no, we don't care. Like this is our thing. Like, don't worry about it. Like, so like recently, you know, I watched the highlights on YouTube and there's like people like talking, doing commentary in English and all this stuff.

Like there was a big hubbub because the Japanese, like, Sumo Association went through and, like, destroyed, like, the ability for them to use highlights. So it's, like, this weird cat and mouse going on. But it's, like, a highly technical, like, wrestling sport. And, like, these guys are, like, incredible athletes. And there's a lot of drama. Yeah, there's a lot of drama. I did know that these guys are incredible athletes and super technical.

Like, you know, they look like they're really overweight, but they really are actually, I mean, they're overweight, right? But they're also very, very strong. And there's a lot of footwork. And it's, it is technical. Yeah. And there's a lot of drama to it. There's these guys like fighting and they do a good job of like having the guys like fight and try to win in order to keep a salaried rank. Like below a certain rank you don't get paid anymore.

There's like just and there's all this like weird stuff like that's just fascinating as a student of culture. Like they kind of forgot how or pretended like it wasn't really dangerous for the wrestlers for like the longest time. And like these guys would like get these massive concussions. and they would just tell them, get back up and keep wrestling. And you'd see these guys like stumble out of the arena with massive brain damage. And it was just like all of this stuff like in terms of the politics and the weird, like the weirdness of Japanese culture compared to ours. It's just, it's really fascinating.

And there's like Americans and British people who in English like go and observe the sport and like put it on YouTube. I highly recommend it. Now I'm just going to picture you like in the morning. You wake up, you make your coffee. And you're like, not now kids. Daddy's watching his sumo from overnight. Daddy's catching up on sumo.

Yeah, like, hey, come on over here. Like, Takakisha is, like, got to win this, or he's going to drop out of the Ozeki rank. Like, really interesting. And then there's all these, like, it's very Japanese. Like, you start to learn what all these unwritten rules are. So Japan has all these rules, but then what's more important is the unwritten rules

that you're not supposed to break. But they're not written down anywhere. Like, for example, like, if you go on, like, anywhere in Japan, it's considered very rude to support, to object other people to the noise of your conversation. So, like, the only people you'll see, like, on a subway that are, like, really loud or that you can hear them talk are foreigners.

Like, if you see somebody that's being loud, unless it's in a special district, like, where that's permitted, because there's an unwritten rule that it's okay to do it there, like, they're either children or they are foreigners. Like, those are the only folks that will do it. And it's just like... Yep. So, like, that all shows up in Sumo, too, and you start to... learn the intricacies of that.

It's much better than baseball. There's unwritten rules. Much better than baseball. Baseball has unwritten rules, too. I'm just not a big enough fan to know what they are. Those are funny. And then there's unwritten rules in basketball too. Like a lot of the times when you see somebody punch the other person in basketball,

it's because they're breaking some unwritten rule that you're not supposed to do a thing. Like if you're way up in the score, you're not supposed to like dunk at the end of the game and stuff like that. Anyway, so where did we end up? Okay, so email capture. So this is a SaaS email capture tool that's down 80% over the last five years. And yet, it still has $900,000 of annual recurring revenue, semi-recurring. And it's for sale for three times, right?

So it's priced appropriately. One thing that did jump out at me is their monthly churn, which is 3.6%, minus 3.6%. which means that in 12 months, they will lose a third of their customers, almost half of their customers, actually, in 12 months. So that tells you that what's going on behind the scenes here is you're also maybe not adding quite as many as you're losing, given the 90% decline over the last several years. But you're always having to do marketing and replace customers. So, I mean, Michael, I'm not like Mr. SAS, but like minus 3.6% per month in SaaS is worrying. Is it not? It's bad.

It's bad. Well, and it ties, okay, that's bad. So here's a mental model that I used to think about business in general, but especially in software, right? It is incredibly difficult to take something that is shrinking and make it break even. So that's like an order, that's like a triple indeed to do that. That's very difficult in software because like the things, the things that are causing you to shrink in software, which is a growing market, the things that are causing you to shrink,

those things are almost always systemic. Like they're almost impossible. Structural. Yeah, they're structural, very difficult to deal with. The market is turning against you. Then it's another order of magnitude to take something that's growing slowly or is flat and make it grow quickly. Those are the mental model I think about this.

It's really very difficult to do those two things. So when I look at this, I've looked at a number of these businesses and been involved in ones that were shrinking and try to make them grow or try to make them at least stay flat. Like, it's really, really hard. Like, there are easier ways to make money. And so when I look at this, I'm like, oh, like, it's highly unlikely that you're going to come in without some magical approach to it and take this shrinking thing and turn it into a flat thing, which is right. Turnaround is brutal. It takes a, it takes a specific type. I mean, it's demoralizing because it's not like you're going to come in and like in month one it's going to turn around. You know, you're going to have to, you got to cut the overhead. You got to try a bunch of stuff. It's the first things you try aren't going to work. Maybe something is going to, I mean, it's just a knife fight. I mean, the turnaround is tough. I know some guys. to do it, and I don't know how they do it.

I'm not going out for it. It is much more fun to work on easy businesses that are, and make them do better. It's just so much, it's just so much more fun here. But yeah, this is from a shrinking, we've lost the market, we've screwed this up, we've dug around grave here thing. This is classic example of that.

And I don't know anything about the background or even what this site is, but I've seen this profile before where somebody has something like this that's dying quickly. The dying is probably, accelerating and they're trying to find a chump to dump it onto. And this is a classic, you know, what they call value trap where it's like, oh, like this is cheap's ass. Well, the reason it's cheap's ass is because it's a shitty business.

Pardon my French. Like, this is a bad business. So if you can put the listing back up for a minute because there are a couple other things that I thought were interesting. So they said they've got, and this actually makes me wonder if it's not sumo.com, because sumo.com, I think the most you can pay them is $39 a month, is their recurring pro plan. But this says their lifetime value here is $1,250. That would imply 32 months of lifetime value.

And yet they're churning half their customer base every year. Those two, I mean, I know those aren't perfectly correlated, but that does not seem to add up to me. I would think in order to get to that lifetime value with that amount of churn, that would only have to be like three. or four months, right, to get that lifetime value and then churn. Like, you'd have to be paying $400 a month for four months for three or four months and then churn and hit that $1,250 LTV. Like when I think about SaaS and that you quote me an LTV number, I immediately try to convert it to months, right? Like, how many months does someone stick around and why? So for me, like, I really want to know how many months, $1,250 is. Well, if it's sumo, that's $468 a year.

So that's probably how they're backing into that number. $4.60 a year, though, at $1,200 lifetime value, that would be almost three years, right? Right. And so how can you have an average lifetime value of three years and still be churning 3% of your customers every month, aka 50% of them every year? The math doesn't seem to work. Yeah, yeah. Well, they may be doing a cohort-based number.

They could be averaging the cohorts. There's lots of ways to play with the numbers here. True LTV may not be averaged across the whole customer set, in fact, $1,250. You know, there's lots of, you know, there's lies in statistics and then there's the truth. Yep. Yep. You know, something like this realistically, you know, you talk about where it's going to be return on hassle and return on, you know, like good investment. You know, I would be definitely interested in understanding what the fixed cost. is for this.

They probably have a staff doing customer support. They have some hosting costs and stuff like that. There is a point where this ice cube is going to keep melting on them, and this net income is going to keep going down. I would be curious where that is. Fundamentally, if this is part of APSumo, right, you have to ask yourself, like, why are these guys selling? Like, it doesn't, you know, there's something wrong in the,

in Denmark, you know? Yeah, I mean, typically I like founder disputes as a reason for selling, you know, because it's a true non-business reason. As bad as it sounds, it's like up there with health issues. You know, that's a real, you know, kind of forcing function that's outside the business. So I generally like that. That being said, I think willful neglect, even if they were paying full attention, I think they might have gotten smushed.

Like the market moved while they weren't paying attention. And it moved to a place where I don't think they, can follow unless they had been raising and investing a bunch of money over the past five years. So, Michael, is there a price for this thing? I mean, is there a structure for this thing? Is it not tradable at all? Should they just hold it and wait for it to die? I mean, it's still making $900,000 a year.

Like, there's got to be something here. There is a net present value of the existing revenue stream that somebody will pay a discount to, you know, like they'll model it out. It's nowhere near 2.5 million. So somebody will do a discounted cash flow, assuming that it's going to continue shrinking. The monthly churn is probably accelerating. I would be surprised if it's not accelerating,

given the market dynamics, if it is indeed sumo. And somebody will pay, they'll do a DCF model and say, okay, well, we think there's a good chance that this generates a million or $2 million in net income over the next couple years because you're going to start to hit your fixed costs and then they'll pay a discount to that. So there are people that will do that.

I think there's another... It seems like a lot of work. Then there is another group of people that I would describe as probably what this listing is targeting, which is let's find somebody who thinks they can fix it and they'll pay a premium for it.

and it would not surprise me if that's who they're targeting with this and with this price, I think that's what they're going for. And look, we talk about in selling a business, you only really need to make a market of one.

They just need to find one person that wants to make a mistake on a business like this and go from there. So, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if these guys either get their price or they just sit on it. Like I see that over and over again

where they're like, well, this thing's generated 900 grand a year maybe next year it'll do 750 maybe the year after that I'll do 450 and then we're better off doing that than taking 1.2 million up front and yeah

that's why stuff like this just sits there or never transacts or you call the seller and they're like well I got something to sell you which what they're actually saying is are you an idiot and if you say no I'm not an idiot then you know like

it's okay and then never mind That never mind. Thanks for stopping by. I'm just going to sit here and collect my coupon. There's an interesting math heuristic that I keep in my head, which is that in this case, if something is halving every year, right, if they do $2 million last year and $1 million this year and $500 the next year, the total lifetime revenue is asymptotes to $2x this year's revenue, right? So let's see you do $1 million this year, next year you do $500, next year you do $250. The total forward revenue in the entire infinite future of the business is $2 million, right? A million dollars this year and then a million dollars in aggregate in all of the out years. So, you know, this business, in order to shrink

85% in five years, it's damn close to having every year, right? So that's kind of what I would consider modeling, having every year. So the sum total of all the forward cash flows, including this year, is $1.8 million. But if you don't include this year, like if that's a trailing 12 number. So if the trailing 12, 900, the forward sum total of all the cash flows is only $900,000 total if it halves every year, halves every year into infinity. The interesting thing is that works the other way around too. If you are doubling every year, each year you do more than your entire aggregate historical revenue, which is also kind of a mind fuck. I have luckily been a part of one of those businesses. It's pretty wild. It's like when software

really works, like there's no better business. Like, there's just no better business when software really works. And I'm including, like, being in the Taylor Swift business. Like, have you seen how much money she's making from her tour, by the way? She's going to make like $600 million. I haven't seen the numbers, but I bet it's a ton. I saw somebody do the math. She's going to be

like a billionaire from this tour. Like, like pretty crazy. Oh, she's a, if she's not already. She's a machine. Oh, so talented. Like, but it's, you know, it does come back to this theme of like, would you trade places with Taylor Swift?

And I absolutely would not. Like being that famous seems like a terrible life. Terrible life. No. I, you know, I see, I see,

this is maybe a reach, but tell me if you think I'm crazy. I see Taylor Swift, Elon Musk parallels. Yeah. Because they are both obviously absolute geniuses, right? I mean,

like Elon Musk is a, I think, general purpose genius, as is Taylor Swift. I think she's a incredible, business person, not just an incredible musician, right? She's obviously very smart and savvy broadly, and she applies that to music and other things. But it's sort of like that cursed genius, though, like in both cases, right? They're both a little troubled personally, you know, and there's parts

of their lives that just can't square away. So it's always that sort of yin and yang of like the extreme genius that there's always, there's always a part that just doesn't seem to quite work right. Yeah. Well, so here's a very, currently take on it. They talk about in the in the in the Bible like selling your soul to the devil. And everybody thinks it's like, oh, the devil shows up and he gives you what you want. The devil is in that case, it's an idea, right? They've to a great extent, like they've both gotten what they want. Like Taylor's become famous. That's what she's wanted ever since, you know, she's a kid. And I'm not her psychologist, but that's just what they say. And then Elon has decided to

like become super rich and impactful. And you look at young videos of him. That's what he always wanted. But they made a deal with the devil. You got what you wanted. But like your life sucks now. You have to travel with armed security. You can't like have normal relationships. Like life is just, you know, the devil, the devil is with you. You traded your soul. You traded like what a lot of us take for granted. And look, man, like you and I are niche internet famous. I'll take niche internet famous over what they have any day of the week. Any day of my God, plus Sunday. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Nitch internet famous is the best kind of famous. Right? Like one week a year, people know who you are.

You go to your industry's conference and like you get to, you know, people know who are and then rest of the year, no one knows who you are. The weird one I have is like random people are like, love you on Twitter. Like who the hell are you? Like at the grocery store? The problem is you're very recognizable. You're visually distinctive. So I bet you can get recognized in public. I totally do.

I was at lunch the other day and like the waitress was like, I love your tweets. It's like, what the... No. It's funny when I'm with other people and I'm like, just kind of like... And you're like super embarrassed all of a sudden? Like, that's a weird thing to happen. It's interesting to like...

Hopefully, hopefully this is something that's happened to me a bit older. So I try to handle it with grace and appreciation. Like, I've lived in the dark corners of nothingness and somebody recognizing and appreciating what I do and it's great. I'm thankful. Yeah, I mean, it is a real compliment, right? Yeah, and a weird level of responsibility.

Yes, totally. Have you ever read, I mean, obviously, you know who Tim Ferriss is. Our listeners probably do, too. Tim has gotten, he's beyond niche internet famous. He's, like, actually internet famous, you know, trending into potentially actually famous. And he wrote a very interesting blog post, like, a couple years ago about the dark side of being famous.

And with, like, real anecdotes from his life. about like very creepy things that have happened to him. And his basic allegory was like, look, I have easily a million fans, right? A million people that know who I am and will recognize me on the street, right? You probably live in a city of about a million people. In that city, how many of those million people are mentally unstable? How many thousands of them are unstable? And so he's like, I have millions of fans.

How many of my fans are legit mentally unstable? and he just gives all these examples and it is terrifying. No desire to be famous. You can look it up. Tim Ferriss, Darkse out of being famous on Google. It's interesting in a very scary way.

That thing said, you will not get internet famous buying this declining SaaS business. So there are other reasons to think about maybe not buying it. You shall not. All right. Well, I got a run.

I got people waiting on me, but this is a good episode. And yeah, I would buy this business. It's way over price for what it's actually going to be worth. Like, I think if people think that

you're going to turn this around. Like ship sailed, timing matters. They had an opportunity seven, eight years ago, and that window passed. It's this, you're not going to turn this around and grow it or even keep it flat. You're in trouble. Brutal. Brutal. I'd be interested if anybody does pull off a deal for this one.

So there is a play here that I just thought about. There is a play that you can buy declining stuff like this and you start raising the prices like crazy. So basically what you do is, is you go and say, okay, it's $39 a month. you get it and what you do is you basically triple the prices. And you say, oh, congratulations, it's now $99 a month. And what you do is you expect half the people to churn. And if you look at it, there's like bare analytics or whatever. It's a platform that sold that was like a $2.5 million.

Bear metrics, they sold for $2.5 million. The guys that bought it, that's their whole play. They focus only on developer-centric stuff, so they wouldn't do this deal. But that's kind of the model that you, do. You pay X for it, and then you triple the prices, lose half the customers, and you end up 40, 50 percent ahead, and it creates a lot of value. So that is a play here that I just thought about. Again, do you really want to be like taking angry phone calls and DMs? It's back to the

Taylor Swift question. Man, that is the most Michael ending this episode ever. Poop on it for 30 minutes and then deliver the real gem at the end after a career of SaaS business. Like, that's the real jam. I'm going to tease that one in the intro. People got to know. stick around for that. Okay, cool. All right, I'll see you later. Don't forget to record the intro. We love you all. Thanks. See you guys.