Adeptus Ridiculous - CADIA NEVER FELL, ACTUALLY | Warhammer 40k Lore feat Kirioth

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

https://www.patreon.com/AdeptusRidiculoushttps://www.adeptusridiculous.com/https://twitter.com/AdRidiculoushttps://orchideight.com/collections/adeptus-ridiculousThe 13th Black Crusade began as the in-game background to the 2003 worldwide Warhammer 40,000 Eye of Terror Campaign. At the time, it resulted in a minor victory for the Forces of Chaos. Its temporary conclusion provided the Warmaster of Chaos Undivided, Abaddon the Despoiler of the Black Legion, and his Chaotic allies the territorial foothold they had long sought within the Cadian Gate, though the servants of the Dark Gods suffered grievous losses to their naval warfleet.Support the show

to another episode of the Adeptist Ridiculous Podcast. My name is D.K. Diamante's. His name is Bricky. And that other person's name will be addressed soon. But before that, if you enjoy today's episode of the podcast, and maybe you want to consider supporting us, head over to patreon.com slash Adeptus Ridiculous, where you can get access to the Discord, bloopers if they happen.

The $15 tier list gets you access to all of our posters in Crispy, Digital, H.D.E. format. Ooh, it's so good. Patreon.com slash Adeptus ridiculous. And golly, these last few months sure have been cold. Hey, Bricky, is there a place where one could, oh, I don't know, get a sweatshirt and or sweatpants that are just really stylish and keep you nice and warm in these cold winter months? It's so hilarious that you said that because it was like 80 degrees yesterday for us. Yeah, but it's still. But still. Hey, if you want to get some wonderful merchandising, merchandising, merchandising, merchandising, you can go down to Orchidate.com link in the description and get yourself some fantastic hoodies, sweatpants. And if you want to feel like that, hey, you know, some dice perhaps or a little game mat or something of that nature to really tie you over. Perhaps even a hat because hats are cool. Check it out, Orchidate.com link in the description. And we're reading War Boss for the book club. So make sure you're.

you read Warboss for the Book Club. Merchandising, merchandising, Merchandising, Merchandise. Spaceballs the Flamethrower. As taglines go, it's not bad. It's pretty strong. I could see that. Well, who's that?

Bricky, who's that? I moved my roadcaster, so I can't hit the soundboard as easily as I could before. Oh, nice, good, good, good. I lied to you. I lied to you out of, I lied to you out of, I lied out of my goddamn teeth, D.K.

I would never move my soundboard too far away. I would never. Hey, Kiroth, how's it going? Hello. I feel like this is just as chaotic as I thought it might be. Yeah. Hi, Kiriots! You can't say you hate it here now.

You've been, no, you're locked in. You're locked in at this stage. Oh, yeah, for sure. I, yeah, this is, this is my life and this is my home. You've passed over the event horizon of the black hole, and you're just being drawn in, no matter what you do. Ah, Event Horizon, that's that movie

based on 40K, eh? A, wow! How did you know? Wow. Yeah. What a Segway? Yeah. Wait. What you mean what a segue?

Wait, yeah, what? I'm just, you know, I'm just throwing it out there. Are we doing... Are we doing... Are we doing a VIN horizon episodes? Are we doing 40K adjacent movies? No, we're not. Oh, you said...

Damn it! normally means it has something to do with the previous statement. Yeah, that was a Dean Kamen. I just really wanted to see whether that was an exciting proposition or not. But now we know, we can do it in the future. There we go. Yeah, 40K adjacent movies that are kind of in the universe of 40K but aren't. That'd be a great episode.

Well, we'll do that next time now. Yeah. Oh, no, I've said that out loud. Okay, no, don't hold me to that. All right. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Try is yelling at us. Tell them, Ricky.

Tell him. Shai is yelling at us. So, you know, I guess we have to, we have to show our discussions. I guess we have to do work now. How long until, how long until Shai regrets this whole setup? How long?

She already has. It's already done. We're past that point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're already here. A big announcement for all of our, our fans and viewers. We have decided for the brand new,

beautiful year of 2024, that Kyrioth will be joining us on a semi-permanent basis. Hey, let's go! Hell, yeah! Let's go! Kierreth, why are you so big? Damn, you're Jack, dude. I'm just a little guy.

It's loosely based off real life, but what you do is you take all the mass from the kind of chest up and move it slightly lower. And that's like, that's how it's kind of been interpreted. That might actually be my canonical height next to Bricky, though. Are you curious? 5-11? You know what? You know what?

Honestly, I appreciate the honesty, man. You could have said six foot easily, but you gave us the 5-11, and I'm really, I really appreciate that. I can't, for ages, I thought it was six, and then we measured, and it's literally like 5-11-and-a-half. but you know what? Five land and a half, it's not six, so I'm not going to say six, because it's not true. You've got to be honest about these things.

I'm just surprised you didn't hit us with a centimetres number. I don't know that. That requires conversion work that I'm not prepared to put in. Don't you live in the UK? Yeah, but everyone does feet for height, right? Really?

I think so. In the UK? Wait, really? I think. Is that, whatever? Is that why they have, Is that why we measure an inches in 40K despite this being a British game?

I mean, quite possibly, yeah. I mean, it's just an absolute mess over here. Just whatever number you fancy at the time tends to be what you go for. So, yeah. Well, no, well, never mind. Anyway, I see we have an iron warrior warp smith look going on here.

So it's good stuff. We need a little bit of chaos set up in here. I mean, it's got to be something, you know, tech related, isn't it? It's got to be something vehicle-based. Otherwise, you know, why am I even here? So, Bricky, you said, you said, you said, you said, Kyriath is joining us on a...

Yes. Yes, yes, of course. Every, at the end of every month, the last episode of each month, it will be a Kiryath episode. So you're going to get him a total of 12 whole times this year. And, uh, which actually sounds like not a whole lot, if I'm being honest, but, um,

but, uh, yeah, he'll be joining us for the, end of every single month and not just about vehicles, but just to do a nice fun group thing and also give me a week off and give DK half a week off. Yeah, yeah, because I get so tired of listening to Bricky. It's just, yeah, he gets it, he gets it. I'm just going to make everything easier. That's not true. That's not how that's going to work at all.

But, you know, I think you should try to get quotes that Bricky can't figure out. Ooh, that's a good idea. Well, I mean... Because I'm not going to get it no matter what. Like, that's easy. You need to get one that Bricky can't get. I'm kind of hoping that I'm... I don't know.

This one might... It might be like starting out strong in that regard. Ooh, you have a quote? I do have a quote. Oh! It's a cut down quote because if I did the whole thing, I mean, it's like the better part of, like, a third of a... page. So we're not going to do the whole lot, but I feel like, I feel like this, this is like a nice,

it could, it could do the trick straight off the bat, or I'm just going to be proved a liar and Brickie's going to get it immediately. We'll see. I was hearing what Horace slew the emperor. I hope it's that close. Imagine if that was the first one. I think I'm going to get him with this and then go straight into that. Well, not amazing, terrible. So shall I give you, should I give you the quote for this? episode. A conflict, the likes of which has not been seen since the Monkai warred amongst themselves, and their corpse of Asia fell to his traitorous son is coming, and all my steps lead towards it,

no matter that I walk other paths. I see the stars stained red with the blood of the Monkai, and though their wars do not concern me, and I would gladly let them destroy one another, I know that to avoid this fight is to condemn my race to inevitable doom and though all I see is darkness I know that I will not flinch from my destiny So this is some Eldari shit Is this Yvrain talking about the Yannari?

That's kind of You're on the right track But in the long time period But it's also the correct time period So it's not So it's not Yovrain or the Yannari but it's... Hmm.

Well, I thought... It is Eldar based. Right? Yeah, even I got that it was the Eldar talking about the human conflict because it's Star-Stained Red, the Monkhan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what about...

I can't help you here, Berkey. This is all you, ma'am. Well, I'm thinking, like, you said... Well, it said the... This was spoken as in it's past the Horace heresy, right? This is after. It is, yeah. After the Horace

Right, and so it's like, hey, I want you to, like, I guess I want to figure out who the, who the speaker is. Is it Prince Uriel or? It is not. I can give you a little, they are the, uh... Give me a little poker. It's a farcea. Oh, it's Eldred.

It is, yeah. Okay. So he's got binoculars. I love that memes so much. It's such a good one. It is. I don't know what they're referring to. I'm assuming I thought that maybe it was like the overarching massive chaos thing and stuff.

But like, I don't know. I don't know what they're specifically referring to unless they're just referring like the tyranids or something. This is admittedly a bit of a curveball because it is something that technically you have already covered. Because you've already done an episode on the 13th Black Crusade. the fall of Cadia. Oh, I thought I recognized that phrase. Yeah, because Eldrad and the, um, uh, don't tell me, Ulthway took part of this.

He did, but you covered the 2017 version of what happened on the 13th Black Crusade, which is not the original story for it. We're going to talk today about the 2003 version and the corresponding I of Codex, I've Terra Codex that came along with it. Ooh, really? Okay. It's kind of, it's really cool. It's one of those things where Games Workshop took an established event and then massively

changed it. They did a whole lot of retconning in order to make way for robot girly man coming back. The Primera showing up, Acadia being destroyed by Abadon, the Dispoiler. But that was all built on. of something that happened way back in 2003 when Games Workshop held a global event where you could log your games and it would have an impact on the Warhammer

40K universe as a whole. Huh. Okay, interesting. So in the 13th Black Crusade that you guys already covered, there is a big, long list of all the people involved. You've got like St. Celestine, you've got Greyfax showing up, Belisarius Call, was introduced, the 2003 version has a much shorter roster, and so many big things that happened in the kind of retcon version just didn't occur when the 13th Black Crusade was originally

done. So if I just read the defending commanders for the original 13th Black Crusade, you've got Creed, you've got Lord Marshall Attica of the Imperial Guard, You've got Great Wolf, Logan Grimnar, you have Iron Father Cardan of the Iron Hands, Eldrad Ulthran, and you have Phoenix Lord Morgan Ra. That's it. Oh, what a cool dude, that Mugan Ra. It's so short compared to the newer one. We've got, you've got like Sven Blu-Hau.

Wait, that's it? Oh, yeah, the notable characters for the original were really quite a small group of people. There weren't that many. Wow. Yeah, because the new one is like Smash Brothers. They're all here. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like a who's who of interesting and important people. Yeah. And there are things like the, we have the intervention of Trays in the Infinite in the newer version. That was not a thing in the 2003 13th Black Crusade because there was no Trays in the Infinite in the Necron Codex that had come out one year. year previous. So a character, like, very instrumental in just the understanding of things like the Black Pilons didn't actually exist at the time. Huh. So did you say it was like based on like people logging their games and stuff? And like, that had the direct impact on who the important people in this thing were? So there was like a bunch of kind of, kind of,

pre-existing conditions and events that would happen, but Games Workshop basically published a map of the Eye of Terror, of the Acadian system and the system surrounding it, and said, okay, we have different forces. We've got the forces of order and the forces of disorder. So for the forces of disorder, you've got chaos-based marines, necrons, orcs, dark elder, tyrannids, and the lost and the damned,

a faction which technically no longer exists. Yeah, we've talked about the loss of the dam before. Oh, they're so good. The Ghost Raiders. Yeah. The Forces of Order, Space Marines and Pura Guard, Tao, Eldar, Siss of Battle, demon hunters, crook and mercenaries, Space Wolves 13th Company, Ulth Way Strike Force, and Cadian Defence Force.

So the idea was that you played games of Warhammer 40,000. You sent the results of those games to Games Workshop, and they tallied those up. against different systems and worked out who had the most influence, and then that would decide what happened to that system. It was awesome, and also the number that I've seen thrown around the most when kind of going back to this, because I vaguely remember this because of starting sort of in third

and remembering the Necron Codex coming out, the number that I've seen thrown around the most in terms of how many people participated in this given that this was 11, sorry, 21 years ago, in 2003, over 40,000 people took part in logging results, which for the time, like when you consider, I mean, it's not like, Warhammer was not as popular then as it is now,

not by a long shot. And to have that many people participate, like that that long ago is it's crazy. I think in since February of 2022 to now there's been like, I think it's about 20,000 people who have taken part in different like ITC tournaments and stuff, so playing 40K competitively. Yeah. Having like twice that number way back in 2003 is, it's pretty significant.

It's pretty impressive. And a Games Workshop allowing the fan base to kind of sort of dictate where the story went was like, they'd done it before. They'd done a few worldwide campaigns before,

but they'd always been very limited. They did one for Armageddon, for instance. But for something this big for Cadia, like the fate of Cadia to be decided by games logged by the players online was pretty massive.

Not to mention this, a couple funky things. Like, it's 2003. So the ability to, like, I don't know, make a bot to make sure Katie doesn't die is not really a thing. It's true. And also, it's a really interesting thing about old school Warhammer, too, because new school Warhammer, one of the biggest complaints to it is that it's too competitive. And it's not as fluffy as it used to be. I think those people have pretty rose-tinted glasses as they forget about arguing about an armor-facing for an hour. Yeah, yeah.

But that being said, there is, back in the day, the games where I argue superbly more unbalanced, but dice also mattered like three times more. So you could absolutely trounce a good army just because the dude rolled like three too many ones. and so it was really fascinating the differences and it's funny to to think about how much more

I guess important or how much more affecting old school 40K was yeah it was overall way more swingy like way more swingy and not necessarily in a kind of oh this person's got a really overpowered army

it's like well yeah but also you could just accidentally trash people without really meaning to, just because of how... I don't know, I found that... Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had a not good build for my Iron Warriors Army in third edition, and it still did pretty well on quite a few occasions,

not because of how good I was, or because of how good the army was, because it wasn't. It's because you loaded your dice. I just had lead plating on one side of the dice, and that did all the work. Is that why you were in my bathroom for so long? Yeah, it was lead poisoning. I was just slowly losing my mind

and I didn't know what was going on. Oh, I thought you were trying to flush the dice. No, only, only an absolute knob tries to flush the lead dice because they just sit in the bottom of the bowl and you can't... I can't imagine... I can't imagine anyone has ever done that.

I mean... No way. That'd be crazy. That'd be nuts. Oh, it's so good. I love that picture. It makes me laugh every time. So, yeah, the kind of original 13th Black Crusade

was a global campaign where players decided the fate of Kadia, and it was massive. It wasn't just Warhammer 40K, though, because Battlefleet Gothic was still a thing at the time. So you had Warhammer 40K doing the battles on the ground, and then you had Battlefleet Gothic deciding who had control of airspace. So you had these two different games, like kind of affecting the overall story, the overall lore of the game. There was also, There's also mentioned I found a couple of points of Inquisitor being involved as well, but I didn't really find very much about that at all. By that point, I think Inquisitor had kind of fallen by the wayside quite a lot,

and you can actually go onto the Eye of Terror website, sort of, kind of. You have to do it via Way Back Machine, which I'll link you. It's a little bit, it's a bit ropy, as you'd expect. given that I think most of it was done through Flash. So it's not just like old for, old for now. The thing that it needed to function properly no longer exists, which makes it a little bit tricky. But you had this massive campaign,

you had Codex Eye of Terror that was supporting it, which I still think is one of the best codexes that Games Workshop ever made, mostly because they added some really, really fun stuff into the game. It was then sadly taken away really quickly because as soon as the edition changed, it was like, all of this is gone. Good luck, sorry about that.

But there's a few gems in there that I absolutely love. Like, you're a fellow lover of the Imperial Guard, Bricky. You know what? I mean, on a case. I mean, if you gotta put it that way. If you want to phrase it like that. Oh, who?

What was that? That was my silly little giggle because I'm a silly little guy. Yuck. Never, never again. It was an experience. Maybe not one to be repeated, but it wasn't experience. So, something that you could take

was the Acadian Defense Force, which had a bunch of additional rules, which I do have right here, And one of my favorite bits from that whole thing, just from the whole thing, was the inclusion of youth platoons. So you could have a youth army platoons for the Imperial Guard. You were able to canonically run child soldiers. Let's go. Oh, my God.

You absolutely were. The children yearned from the minds. They yearn for combat. There is a quote in here. which I love to this day, any Cadian who can't field strip his own Lasgun by age 10 was born on the wrong planet. Jesus Christ.

I think they actually still use that quote. I think I remember specifically stating that because there was like a line for Cadians where it's like you will learn to strip your Lasgun by 10. You will be doing artillery drills by 12, like, etc., etc. Yeah. Yep, yep.

It really kind of hammers home just how, I mean, just what an absolute hellhole, KD, it was, is. The fact that that that is just, it's just a commonly accepted phrase. So one of the things that this book allowed you to do was to field youth army platoons. So a youth army platoon consists of two to five squads of cadets. The whole platoon functions as a single unit, which means that you will have a single unit from 20 to 3,000, 50 models, which is amazing. And the best thing is, you go for that full 50 model unit size, you're looking at 200 points, which is mad and great at the same time. Wait, 200 points of, well, for 50? So are we still playing in the 1500 or the 2,000 points cost? So at this point,

I believe it was 1850 was the most commonly accepted which I mean why but yeah 50 Garzman effectively so

you I mean you could just flood you could flood with basically children you're basically just throwing wave upon wave of youth of children soldiers

of people if you want at least until the most recent codex They did have conscripts as a unit. And some people would bring like 300 models to a game. But even that, I think, is a low amount compared to this. It's also the phrasing, like, just youth army just doesn't sound great, does it? No, that does not sound like a thing that should exist.

Youth Army cadets. Woo-hoo! Oh, oh, but don't forget, though. A missile launcher is another 20 points. Oh, that's true. Yeah, you don't have to pay for it. You can't just throw it out there. So when little Timmy pulls out the gats,

you got to make sure you're paying for it. Yeah. Oh, man. Child Soldier with their rocket launcher. Oh, boy. It's so good. In a, in a, wow, this is an awful sort of way. I absolutely love it.

So this is one of the things that... The grim darkness. Yeah. It's one of the things that I think... think made that the kind of that campaign, the Eye of Terror campaign and that 13th Black Company so fun and interesting and very different to the 2017 version was the fact you had the supporting codex that you could use to field armies that then appeared in that campaign, like the 13th Company for the Space Wolves, which was the first introduction of the Wolfen.

So we got the Wolfen again. Is that supposed to be a good thing? I was going to say, so that's who we blame for the wolfen. Okay. To be fair, I feel like the original Wolfram models, so the newer ones, I mean, I'm not a particularly big fan of the new ones, but that's because I had an army of the old ones. Well, not of, but I had a bunch in my 13th company army. So bad, actually. They're just like space marines that are kind of werewolfy.

The new ones are definitely, it's weird, the new ones look really goofy and weird. And like, yeah, I kind of prefer the old ones. The old ones are, I just think they're like classic. They're like classic models. I really, really liked them. And the 13th company of the Space Walls, they had, they've like, they did their own box for them, which was really fun, which was a mix of a Space Walls box and a Chaos Space Marines box. because they'd been in the eye of terror. They've been hunting traitors since the time of the heresy.

So when you bought a box of 13th company Space Wolves, you got a 50-50 split of Space Wolf stuff and Chaos Space Marine stuff. So you had that, like, all the kit-bashing stuff was just in the box as one big thing. That's pretty cool, actually. The only downside was no vehicles. no vehicles for the 13th company because they couldn't maintain them. So the Space Wall's 13th Company army had just a blanket ban on transports

and on vehicles apart from bikes. You could take bikes, but that was it. So as an army, it was not the easiest to play. I did have a 13th Company army, and it was interesting because it was like, okay, where's your heavy, armor, how'd you get in there?

Well, you sort of, you really, you kind of don't in a way, because none of that is allowed. You're not allowed any of that stuff. Really, really paired down army list. Like, I know that when it comes to space marines just as a whole these days, codexes are quite like, especially space marine stuff, quite bloated, right? There's a lot going on. There's a lot of models. There's a lot of data sheets.

DK, don't say a word. What? I wasn't going to say anything. You so were. I heard it. I heard it. What was I going to say, Bricky? No.

Really? Space Marines bloated? Ah, never. I could feel it coming from you. I don't know what you're talking about. It was the most D.K. thing to do. I don't know what you're talking about.

Sir. I still got you to say it though It was clear thank you very much I do find it very humorous The 13th company because they were just They just flat out aren't like they're Wolfen They can't maintain vehicles That is really great

I mean chronically Wolfen should not be able to maintain vehicles That's fair Can we appreciate the fact that There's someone in that second photo As Wolfen just grabbing a chaos like Coltist and just throwing him. He might be about to Bain back break him.

I was about to say that. It's like he takes after his prime arc very well. Yes, exactly. Right over the knee. Break his back and make him humble. It's so good. A lot of the art from those codex is just so, so cool. So actually, that's, shy is correct.

We should probably talk a little bit about the main difference with the kind of, with the 213th Blackcreen. Crusades is the end more than anything else. So obviously there's a much reduced kind of roster of characters for the one that took place in 2003. My Belisario's call didn't exist. You didn't have Celestine showing up. Phoenix Lord Morgan Rao showed up and did way more than any.

I don't think he was really mentioned all that much in the retcon version. I don't remember him showing up all that much. but he fought alongside Creed in defence of a planet in the original. But through this campaign and through the way that they took all of these different reports of Battlefleet Gothic games and Warhammer 40K games, initially it looked kind of bad. The forces of disorder basically piled all of their effort into trying to take a single planet and it didn't work.

because the way the system worked meant that you were supposed to kind of assault different places and attempt to overthrow general control and it was all done through percentages and stuff. So it was less like, okay, if you just keep throwing guys at this one planet,

then you will win. That wasn't how they actually did it. They did like a percentage system. So depending on how many games you won would affect the percentage of imperial control and if you manage to erode it away completely, then either the forces of disorder would take that planet, or in a couple of cases,

Games Workshop would then decide, okay, well, the Imperium would not stand losing this planet, and therefore they would be forced to use exterminators and just get rid of it. So after the first week, it was looking kind of ropey straight away. And then because at this point, you had, I mean, there's a bunch of forums now, but there were quite a few larger forums going on.

The disorder players and chaos in particular really got themselves very well organised to the extent where there were two groups, the triad and the planet killers, and through those two groups, they started to not just push back against Imperial Control, but just take system after system and start really hammering away

to the extent where it became a thing of, oh, well, you know, the Imperium as a whole was still more popular back then, just like it is now. Is this going to end up being a wash where nothing really happens to, oh, disordering chaos are actively just making massive inroads towards Cadia and are having a really big impact on the setting at this stage? To the point where it came down to Cadia itself and instead of what we've had happened in 2017, where, you know, the fall of Kadia, the planet

broke before the guard did, we lost... The eye of terror opens up and... Yeah, massive... ...matterics, maledictum, and... Huge rift across the galaxy, just bad news for absolutely everyone. It was a lot less traumatic in a way, because at the end of the 13th Black Crusade, technically chaos had done quite a bit of damage on Kadia, but Kadya. was not destroyed.

And whilst they kind of had control over the planet's surface, they did not have control over the airspace. Because the ground battles went the way of the forces of disorder, but the space battles played through Battlefleet Gothic went the way of the Imperium. So you had this massive stalemate, where all of this campaign had gone on, and at the end of it, Cadia wasn't secure, but it also hadn't fallen. It wasn't out of commission

and no reinforcements could come to help chaos because the Imperium had won the space side of the battle and had effectively cut off the planet from being reinforced by the enemy. So chaos would eventually lose. A little switcheroo! Yep, it's such a different ending to what Games Workshop then changed it to. Wait, so that's how it ends back then? is just like, yeah, chaos took Acadia, but eventually they're going to get starved of whatever

because they can't get any reinforcements? Yeah, they basically ended it on that stalemate. And that stalemate lasted from 2003 until 2017, where they did the Gathering Storm stuff, and introduced, you know, way more characters, had some really big kind of events when it came to like character deaths and stuff. for instance in the first 13th Black Crusade Creed, funnily enough, was not stolen by Trazen because he wasn't a thing.

Yeah, because Trazen didn't exist yet. So he couldn't be put in the gallery. His best friend also, Colise Arjunctal, Kell, was still alive at the end of it. Ah, ha. I remember when you could run, Kell. I remember when you could run Creed. He was still going. He was still, he was wounded, but alive.

Quite a big thing, and that something I remember, people being slightly unhappy about was Eldrad as well. Eldrad did not have a great time at the end of the original 13th Black Crusade because Eldrad managed to make it onto the Blackstone Fortress that Abadon had brought to the Cadian system. He wanted to try and like connect with it and to like uncorrupt it, only to find that when he got into the Blackstone Fortress's sentience, he found an extension of Slanesh.

Ooh. Who killed him. Oh! Just wiped him out. Now, he'd kind of, not like, stopped it from being a permanent thing, because for a long time, it was a case of, you know,

people didn't know what had happened to him. He might be able to come back. He might be trapped somewhere because he'd put a lot of his soul and kind of mind into a bunch of waystones and things. So it was kind of a, oh, he's been taken out, but is it the end for him? We're not sure. Right.

I thought when he found Slanesh and got killed by Slanesh, his soul took the big Uffi for the Eldar and, you know. The big Uffy, huh? The big Uffi. Yeah. I mean, there's no bigger Uffi for an Eldar than to get killed and sucked up by Slanesh, right? Like to have their soul just right through a straw, you know? I guess that's true, but it's, I feel like, okay, it's. It's the biggest oofy for an Eldar.

I think death is a big oofy for many people, yeah. Well, yeah, but if their soul is still in a soulstone, they can potentially eventually do some magic nonsense, and, you know, it's 40K. Death is never the end. D.K., let me make this clear. You are right. It's not about you being wrong or right.

It's about your phrasing. It's about the big oofy. What is? Uh-oh, I got eaten, my soul got eaten, and I'm going to be tortured for all of eternity. Oh, whoopsie. You use it with the same gusto as knocking down a cup of coffee. Shai said, uh-oh, my soul got eaten by God of sadism. It's a bit of an oofy, not a bit of one.

It is a big oofy, I say. The biggest. You know, that's a big, that's a big oofy. I have a video for this. Uh-oh. Whatever it is, Shaddeny. I'm very neat and died just there. I just took a sip of water as you said it, and it went straight into the lungs, and now I'm in real trouble.

Oh, no. We've ended Keriath before it even began. It's not going to be 12 episodes. It's just the one, and then that's... That's a bit of an oofy. This is the vibe I'm getting right here. This is the vibe I'm getting from the big oofy. That one, I love that one.

That is a great one. I see that as a Raiders and Devils and Canadians fan, I see that gift. on the regular in replies. So, yeah, I don't even have to play it. I know exactly what it is. Well, I saw the title and went, I know what that is. I immediately remember this.

I have been a very big fan of the Chiefs, you know. Go to hell. Sorry, that was a bit of an oofy, my apologies. That was a big oofy. Even a big oofy. The thing is, you, like, obviously, Raiders, hate the chiefs, but literally everybody outside of Kansas City

hates you now too. I don't even understand football. Eh, well, whatever. Like, like, when's the part when they go down on each other? Like, how many downs is it reach first? Oh, you get four downs. Four downs?

Yeah. I should learn a... You didn't know there were four downs per... Really? You know, there were four downs? I know there's four downs. Bricky, that's a bit of it. speaking English? What happened? Did I black out? So, Kariots, what are we doing next here? What do we... You speak English, we speak American.

So, so Eldrad got a bit of an oofy. Not the biggest one, because he didn't get his soul sucked up, but... Oh, no. You could say that he had a predicament. I think that's a... I think you can, I think you can put it that way. He had a definite predicament. Yes. I don't even, I can't even pass that sentence that Shai just put in there. Okay, shy, one of those was fruit, and she does not count in that category.

Definitely not. That is not fair. Two of them, yes. Well, at least one of them. Yeah, Zen and Matara are definitely in that category for sure. Not fruit. Fruit is pretty wholesome. That's, you know.

Well, until she started screaming for the emperor shit during Dark Side. All right, Hi, Hi, Hi, let me ask you. Let's reel this thing back in. shall we? Yeah, yeah, Curath, you're a fan of fishing. What the hell? Yeah, a bit. All right, cool.

Then you should be, then you should be good at knowing how to reel. Let's go. I don't, I just don't know how to recover from just reading that sentence. It's still breaking my bed. Eldred, Eldred got dunked on by Slanesh, eh? Yes. So effectively, Eldrad goes in to try and, to try and help. He does try and help.

And it, it just doesn't, it just doesn't, it just doesn't go. very well. He is pretty much kind of dead for the next 14 years of real time. I'm not entirely sure how much Games Workshop did to change that law-wise, or whether it was just a case of, ah, you're playing him from a different time, which they do like to do. You know, there's plenty of characters in Code X's and stuff that are like, well, technically this person's gone, but, um, but the whole, I mean, yeah, to be fair, it did feel harsh at the time, and that was the main thing that I distinctly remember one person at my local gaming store getting very upset about, because it was that thing of

two unrelated factions have a fight, and then as a result, one of your main characters gets wiped out. Oh, yeah, that would be pretty brutal as an Eldar fan, wouldn't it? Or as an Eldar player, yeah. Kind of harsh. Tau. It's kind of harsh. That's brutal.

Tau and the orcs are having a giant fight and then a railgun shot goes into deep space and just kills Gilemon in the head. Just takes his head off. Yeah, he just takes him out at random. He just happens to be waiting for ship repair and the void shields are down and became, as us Mass Effect fans know,

and what is it? Like, the two cadets they're yelling at or it's like, when you fire this weapon, it might go off in a deep space, hit someone else in 10,000 years. So, you know, it's, uh, yeah. Man, I hope when that new Mass Effect game comes out, it doesn't suck. Same.

Whenever it comes out. Anyway, that does kind of suck. But Eldrad's still around, though, so. Yeah, yeah. And, like, he, he's kind of managed to maintain being quite a major character, despite what happened, you know, 20, 21 years ago. Um, but the major, like, the major, the major, differences, I mean, say the major differences, it was like the status quo for like we say,

like 14 years where Games Workshop had this stalemate where they did, what at the time felt like a very big move, like having the fan base actually make a proper impact on the universe, and then having done it, they were like, and that's how it is. No, don't talk to me again. Don't ask me. Don't ask about what we're doing next. This is how things are, and we're just going to, we're just going to leave it like that, and that'll be fine. And they never did it again. Pretty, kind of, yeah. I mean, I think they've done, you know, they've done other, other, like, story-based things.

And then we had the, I think the most recent thing was having Space Marines and Tyrannids fight, like, from the contents of the Leviathan box to work out whose reveals got, showed off, you know, sooner after that box dropped. Yeah, and the Nid's won, because I think people were pretty, uh, pretty space marine birds for a bit. Yeah. Although I gotta be honest, that's like kind of a cool thing that would like, I mean, I know you probably couldn't do it now because like Bricky said, like bots and stuff, but like, I don't know, the idea that like you could directly impact the lore of 40K by playing the tabletop is kind

of a neat idea. Like, I, it would, it would probably. get a lot more people playing the tabletop if they're like, oh, shoot, I can, I can make my faction relevant just by winning enough. And, you know, that's kind of cool. But, you know, logistically, it probably doesn't work out so great. Things were also a little different back in the day. The game was different. The systems were different. It was, you weren't playing 40K for the game. You were playing it because you wanted to make a narrative. I remember a lot of my, That's the other thing.

Being able to, like, control the narrative a little bit is kind of dope. Yeah. So my friend, I remember I had a friend who has this, like, Space Marine Captain, and his base has, has the head of every, everyone he ever beat. So, um, so, like, eventually. That's awesome. Yeah, so eventually he had this, like, Space Marine Captain, this power weapon, whatever. And it's this old, like, metal, whatever the hell. It's from way back in the day.

Um, and then he just basically, uh, it has, like, a helmet of a blood angel down the bottom and then like an orc head and then like a tow head and so on and so forth but now he can't run it because the base is so big because he had a key because he's had this for like 20 years racked up a couple kills yeah so sorry buddy but that's no longer a 40 millimeter

base you can't run that in a tournament he's like magnetize the guy and then just have the display base every time he takes it anyway it's like his display base and he takes it off puts it on a normal base anyone he kills he adds to the display base and it just gets bigger and bigger. And no one cared at the time, but he's on like a mountain of skulls.

That's awesome. He probably spent more money on kit bashing parts than he did on the actual model. I mean, that's the way, surely. Oh, yeah, this is a way. Is that just me? That's what I tend to do. I actually did that with a chaos night when I had a game against someone who, I think it was a bloodthuster. A chaos night, you've got a lot more area, right?

Wow, that I gave them part of the model because one bloodthirster killed three of my chaos night. And I was like, you know what? That was insane. Here you go. And I took the shoulder pad off the chaos night that had Kitbash to have a warhound Titan Vulcan Megabalter and gave it to him. And the next time I saw him, he had it on the base with the bloodhound like standing on it,

which was quality. I love that. Hell yeah. stuff like that, just building up the characters is just a really fun way to do it. And it feels like, I mean, this is probably like a bit of like rose tinted glasses way of looking at things, but very kind of prevalent way back.

There was a lot of like narrative decisions made over anything else, which I don't know. It's one of the most fun things about the game, isn't it? Yeah, finding the right balance between the two is important. Playing the game itself is so, is really, really fun. and it's fine if you're going to do it in a more like traditional game sense that involve a strategy and build list building and that kind of stuff. But at the same time,

you do want to stick around with the enjoyability that comes from, the fact that you are doing a narrative war game. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's good time. Something that I wanted to, I wanted to, I meant to mention this earlier, but then I got distracted, which happens frequently, whenever we do these.

So this campaign, when I said that like, you know, it's over 40,000 players sent in a bunch of results, I did manage to find a site I thought I'd lost where there is a direct rip of the white dwarf article that Andy Chambers wrote after the campaign had finished. So there's loads of really, really good information in it. I will link it. And just the top paragraph says so much.

So Andy Chambers wrote, the biggest campaign in Games Workshop history is drawn to a close. Over 40,000 players have sent in more than a quarter of a million game results over eight weeks to decide the fate of the Kadian Gate. It's worth pointing out that when they decided to do this campaign, they thought, and they have outright said, and I think it was Andy Chambers who actually said, like, oh, we're expecting like the Armageddon campaign like plus 50%. We've had more results posted in a single day than in the entire Armageddon campaign. And we thought that was big.

Hell yeah. Wow. It's a little bit of an uptake. It's got a wholesome. It's got a wholesome how much of a group effort this kind of thing was. And it just isn't really a thing you probably could do now. Oh, the logistics of juries now. have like some big tournament that was overseen by like GW staff and it'd have to be very

stringent and strict and it wouldn't be like as sort of you know yeah it by today's standard you just couldn't really do the same thing oh shit oh watch out oh it's the monolith with the steel chair watch how watch out my god he's got a family that that's that's the best this is the best i don't think dk knows about that but it's all right i know you do kiri off So, yeah, I mean, just in terms of, like, the overall approach and the, what, this is the thing that I, I wanted to, like, for us to talk about was because it was so, so weird and interesting when Games Workshop did, like, the 13th Black Crusade and Gathering Storm and the return of Primarchs, and I saw people getting super excited that, oh, Wolf and have got models and stuff. and there was me and, you know, obviously quite a few other people. It's not like I'm the only one who remembers this, but a good number of us kind of set out of going, oh, this feels weirdly familiar and totally different at the same time.

Like, we've not just had this, but contributed to it directly the first time round, and that just became the status quo. That was just how 40K was for, you know, well over a decade. and now the events of the 13th Black Crusade are massive because they've changed 40K in huge, like, irrevocable ways. Oh, yeah. As a direct kind of consequence of all of that, we have Gilliman back, we have Primaris,

like, so much stuff happened because of Games Workshop reconning what was, at the time, one of the biggest kind of events in 40K, and it's just become like a springboard, like a jumping off point for so much story development, which is like the total opposite of what actually happened, where it, the things occurred, and then nothing changed for 14 years. It's wild how different the two kind of versions are. I was going to say, how was it? Like, for someone that, like, played, back then and was like, oh yeah, I, I contributed to like this crazy stalemate on Cadia and then to see like the retcon version that is so different and Cadia gets chunked into

pieces. The Eye of Terror splits open. Like, that's a huge change. I'm, I wonder like, like, for you, Kariath, like, well, like, that's a, that's a huge retcon, a good retcon. But, like, that's kind of be a massive like, whoa, okay. I was thinking that same thing, but I was thinking like, you know, in a sense, that's, that's kind of sucks that they did such a crazy event like that kind of thing. Um, and then retconned it. But like, I'm in two minds about it. Because on one hand, if your crazy event is canon for a decade and a half, like, at what point is

Like, you know, that's long enough. You know, like, a kid, a kid was born when Katie fell. And then it's a sophomore in high school by the time they changed it. Like, I don't know. But at the other time, like, I would love to ask someone who did participate in it and ask them how they feel. Yeah, I'm so curious to know how they feel about that. And it's like, because when Katie, that's such a, that's such a landmark occasion that, like Kiriath said, was so changing that, like, can you really be mad at that, though? Yeah, I would like, like, the fall Acadia right now identifies the entirety of 40K world.

Like, it is literally the point of the lion's son of the forest book is the galaxy is split in half. Like, it's monumental. whole. Yeah. Did they do any, like, Kira, did you know if they did any, like, references to the original thing in the new Canadian books or something?

Like, are there any players or winners that are, like, random guardsmen or something? Do they do any of that stuff? From what I can tell, like, not really. It's, a lot of the foundational stuff is, is similar or the same. But then it just ramps up in such an

like, comparatively, like such an insurm. way where instead of having, you know, chaos attack the surface and nothing really happens, but they are there in making life difficult, instead you've got, you know, like St. Celesteem dueling Abidon is massive and awesome, and that didn't happen first time round.

So stuff like that, just kind of, it's weird because the thing that I remember suddenly became not relevant anymore, because so much of it was totally different. but at the same time, it was kind of really cool at the same time because of just, it didn't feel like that much changed. The actual campaign itself was really fun, and the store that I was going to and like the people I was playing games and stuff, it was a third party store. So one of the things they did was like, results from Games Workshop stores had more weight than ones reported independently, which I can kind of understand. why they would do that. I mean, they had to weed out a fair few not legitimate sort of game

report. But there was this kind of weird mix of, okay, if they abide by the results of this, this is going to be massive. But if it goes too far in one direction, are they even going to abide by it? Because that'll kind of upset things a bit too much. Like, this kind of weird mix of like, we can make things change unless they decide that they don't want things to change, in which case there's no point doing this. But then the thing is sort of getting more organized and people get more into it. And then, them kind of actively saying

chaos won. Like, they didn't say it was a complete victory. In fact, in that white dwarf, the line is victory for chaos. Not a complete victory. So it's like, okay, you did it. You didn't quite do all of it, but you did do it. Yeah, I'm kind of in two minds

because on the one hand, they could have just had a second part, like a 14th Black Crusade that just absolutely built on what the 13th achieved. But then again, 13th Black Crusade was already kind of embedded and already felt significant. And even just the name, the fact that, you know, 13 being the unlucky number, the 13th Black Crusade just sounds better than the 14th Black Crusade. It kind of speaks of like ill omen and, things going wrong and, you know, like something unstoppable, weirdly.

So, yeah, kind of a mix of, oh, but that's not what I remember at all. But then also going, oh, but it's really kind of cool that he won. Like, he just outright won. He really messed everybody up. And that's, that's sort of what we were hoping for the first time round. You know, if you're playing on the side of chaos and disorder, you wanted that to begin with. so sort of seeing it happen, albeit quite a long time after, there's just, there was a little bit of, yeah, hell yeah, he did it. He actively, like, he actually did it. That's great. Yeah, kind of hard to be mad at the outcome of what the retcon fall of Kadia was, right? Like, even if it is vastly different, it's like, yeah, but, like. It reminds me when we, when we read the Arks of Omen book about Angron, Angron just won. He just, big chaos dub. Yeah, just, yeah.

slammed apart this planet and turned everyone insane. And it's like, nice. Huge. The big, well, not the biggest chaos, but huge chaos dub, yeah. Absolutely massive chaos stuff. Which is nice, because it's a, it's a rarity. Yeah, it's definitely, I could stand to see it happen more, but I also know why it doesn't. It's like a 50-50 of, it kind of nice if something really, really horrific happened.

But if you do that too often, the setting kind of breaks, like, they're kind of, I don't know what they're going to do now having split the galaxy in half and all of this awful stuff happening because if they escalate it too much the existence of the Imperium becomes kind of nonsensical whereas for a long time they've managed to balance it just right

where it's like everything is really bad but nothing is quite like apocalyptic bad yet it's just on the brink it's always on the brink Yeah. So, I mean, what they did following the second version of the 13th Black Crusade was such a huge shift that I just really liked seeing that amount of change. There is, though, there is something that the original had, that the new version doesn't, which is a genuine shame.

Because the lost and the damned aren't a thing on the table top. No, they're not. They used to be, you could have your lost in the damned army and you could have a bunch of kit-bashed, horrible mutants, alongside kind of normal guardsmen who could have chaos spawn and Lehman and they could field defilers as well,

which was awesome, and there is a... Oh man, those are some old minis, dude. Oh, hell yeah. So the Lost in the Dam was basically the representation, Oh yeah, no, the lost and the damned from Codex Eye of Terror, as Shias just pointed out, that you probably think it's the firehawks, it's traitor guard. So Codex I of Terror implemented the ability to field traitor guard along with mutants, with chaos spawn, with like a chaos space marine champion leading the army. So you weren't really fielding a bunch of chaos marines. you were fielding normal dudes,

you would be fielding mutants and artillery and, you know, stolen tanks and stuff. Wait, so for the first time, you actually got to just put traitor guard on the tabletop. Wait, what were the loss in the day? I thought they were the ghostwriter dudes. Yeah, I am a little confused.

They are, it's one of those things where they've taken a name and they've reused it. Oh, God damn it. Because I've heard Lost in the Dam refer to Chaos cultus and shit before, but I thought... So, okay. So this is literally just guard that have just gone trades as a faction. Legion of the Damned.

We all did it. Oh, Brigh got me all confused. No, well, could that, I mean, that's fair. They're both the damned, and they both start with an L. Lost in the Damned and Legion of the Damned. It... Okay, yeah. It's not the only thing that starts from L here.

Unfortunately. It happens. The rules share the same brain cell. Yeah, it happens. Oh, dang it. All right. Yeah, yeah. Okay, traitor guard.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's, you know, you can't, you don't have unique rules for that now. If you want to play traitor guard, you play guard and then, or you do a lot of cultist conversion work with chaos. And you're like, yeah, the traitor guard. For a brief, wonderful shining moment, you could have actual traitor guard and you could kit-bash them with orc parts to make mutants, including in the first picture I put in there, if you look closely,

there's a dude who's scooting along on a single wheel coming out of his torso. Whoa, what? Whose idea is that? I don't know, but I do love it. Wait, where is that on the picture? The guy's scooting along on a single wheel?

Where is that? Unicycle Jones. On the Lost and the damned picture up there, you can see, you can literally see the fact that It's orc parts as well. Like big musly arms. Oh, yeah, you're right.

The shoulder parts. Yeah. It was great. Oh, man. This is also completely useless bit of trivia. No one's going to care about but me. The picture of the defiler there, that's the first time that there was a picture of a defiler model in a codex. And it's still the same model.

It's still the same model. Yeah, the defiler was in the Chaos 3.5 codex, but it was only a drawing of. of it. There was no picture of it in any of the army shots because the kit wasn't ready at that point, even though the stats were there and the rules were there. And so when Codex I of terror came out, it was like, oh, oh wow, they've actually got pictures of this thing that's kind of already been a thing sort of. What's going on here? It was great. It's also why I end up buying two of them almost immediately, because at the time, I'm willing to concede, they've not aged that well, but at the time

it was pretty cool. Okay, okay, okay. That's, that's dope. I gotta be honest. I still hate the defiler with a burning passion. Why is that not aged? It's not aged well. It is not, but the, oh, yikes.

That's not that bad. That thing, that's not. Like, you make it sound like it's some abomination, against, well, I mean, it's chaos of abomination against God, but, like, that's not a bad, mini. Nothing wrong with that. It's not that bad until you compare

it to all the other demon engines that they've made, at which point it's like, oh, I wish the defiler looked more like literally any of these. Like, a defiler that looks more like a muller fiend with all, like, the muscle and stuff going over it. Okay, fair.

Like, more kind of rounded armor and stuff and, like, maybe a gun, poking out of something that isn't just a box. Like, that would undeniably be kind of cool. I'm not saying there aren't better, but like, it's not like the defiler's that bad either. Like, it's fine. It's not the worst.

You know what? Ironically, I imagine that look would look better as an admec vehicle. Put up, like, have like dune crawler legs and give it a bit more of like a steampunk aesthetic. and I think it would look better as admec. In a weird way, the ad mech make it look more alien and strange than chaos does. Yeah, and add a bunch of mechadendrites coming out from its back or something. Yeah.

Yeah, you're probably. Yeah, and I know you said it. I kind of want to see that. Yeah. See, the, like, I don't know, like the new chaos stuff as a demon engine goes, it has to combine a bit more of that weird grotesqueness for me. Yeah, the sort of mutated flesh coming out of the steel. Yeah, that's just the way I look at it.

Also, also in a... Yeah, exactly. Exactly, shy. That's what I'm saying. It looks like a doon crawler. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Well, it does kind of... Yeah. Exactly. That's why I would prefer it. That's fair. I'll give you that one. Just want a dune crawler. Don't want the defrailer.

I really like the dune crawlers. Just wants bigger, better dune crawlers. Or walkers or whatever they're called. You know, I... I actually want to do it and ask to our, to our viewers. Viewers, if any of you were part of, like, a comment section would be kind of nice, you know, like, if any of you were part of the 2003, Kadia, follow Kadia, like, whole schick, if they let you have internet in your old folks home, please go ahead and. Please send us a comment and tell you how you feel about the new. Cudacious stuff considering the old stuff.

I'd love to hear it if your nurse will let you type it out. Wasn't that? It was 20 years ago. Yeah, it was literally 21 years ago. Think about what Warhammer is like in the age demographic. There are people who are in their mid-40s that played that. They are in their 60s. my comment might not

my comment might not might not be that off base yeah actually true enough I guess jeesh yeah that's well okay well maybe maybe so maybe so

I can't wait for my sins to catch up with me yep yeah Bricky is going to be hosting ad Rick from his nursing home in 20 years. The nurses let me out. I can do today's episode.

And then my person that I room with, because I'm in like a sniff, will be like Yeah, they'll be like screaming the entire time because that's what happens in skill nurse facilities. Because they think you're talking factual and yeah. Oh, no, because they just do that. Just in general, just constantly. Oh, when I had to pick up patients from like the sniffs and stuff, it, it, it, It was like a horror movie in there.

It's awful. It's awful. Anyway, as someone who likes to scream, continue, Kirov. Well, I was going to say, based on current trends, we can expect another 13th Black Crusade to drop on, like, what, in 2013, in 2013-1. So it's not that far to go until the third version. And then we can see how it goes from there. Yeah, we can comment on that one.

Yeah. From our nursing home. That's a good point. That'll be in seven years. Oh, not long now. That's way too soon. 2017 was seven years ago. I don't love that.

Oh, man. It's isn't crazy how the COVID lockdown was four years ago? It feels like it was centuries ago. It feels like it was like 10 years ago. No, it feels like yesterday for me. Really? For me, it feels like that was like a decade ago. It feels like it was like a decade ago.

It feels like both. It really feels like both. I will sit there and be like, oh, that was during the pandemic. Oh, man. Can you believe the pandemic was last year? And then it's like, well, the lockdown bit was not last year. What are you talking about? But it feels like it was.

But then at the same time, it felt like it went on for at least 10 years. Maybe it's because, like, I so rarely go out that it's all just one big blur. You know, like before COVID, I wasn't really going out and doing much. COVID happened. I was like, well, business as usual. And then, hey, I'm still here. So it all just kind of feels like one continuous timeline to me. That's, I mean, that's the way to deal with it. Just don't go anywhere. You won't notice any difference. You know what? Something like that. That should be that that's the message. That's the message for today's episode. Don't go anywhere.

Simply submit your reports for your games that you've definitely played for a camera. pain that ended a long time ago. It's falling apart already. Praise the answer. Hit the eject button. Someone press it. Let's go. Oh, oh, is it dementia kicking in?

Yes. Oh, crap. Is what kicking in? Did it dementia. Hey, uh, D-K would make me a sandwich?