Adeptus Ridiculous - The First Heretic - Book club & Discussion | Warhammer books

Episode Date: July 24, 2022

https://www.patreon.com/AdeptusRidiculoushttps://www.adeptusridiculous.com/https://twitter.com/AdRidiculoushttps://orchideight.com/https://www.collectiblesquids.com/ code: ADRICAmidst the galaxy-wide war of the Great Crusade, the Emperor castigates the Word Bearers for their worship. Distraught at this judgement, Lorgar and his Legion seek another path while devastating world after world, venting their fury and fervour on the battlefield. Their search for a new purpose leads them to the edge of the material universe, where they meet ancient forces far more powerful than they could have imagined. Having set out to illuminate the Imperium, the corruption of Chaos takes hold and their path to damnation begins. Unbeknownst to the Word Bearers, their quest for truth contains the very roots of heresy...Support the show

Welcome everybody to Adeptus Ridiculous. I am one of your host, Bricky. There's also this other guy. His name is D.K., he's around sometimes. So we're going to be talking about books and other nerd. Actually, this is a pretty nerd fucking episode right here. If you enjoy this episode, check us out on Patreon. At patreon.com slash Adeptives Ridiculous.

There are great options there, including joining our Discord, fancy posters every month, as well as also some really cool, uh, really cool benefits involving, uh, baby, involving, uh,

blah, uh, I don't know, wow, are you okay? It's not, there's actually, I can't think

we don't have anything else going for that, do we, right? No, we have a Patreon goal at 17K,

though. Oh yeah, we do have a Patreon goal at 17K. Mm-hmm. That's right. We're going to talk

with the Dornian heresy. Dornian heresy. Dornian heresy. Everybody wants the, uh, the, the, the fan theory

of the alternate universe where, uh, Dorn is the great betrayer. Yes. Also, you know, check that out.

And also go to Orkidatea.com, check out the merch. There's lots of merch there. Tons of merch. Merch is great. Shirts, hoodies, etc. The March,

the March, baby. It's all about the merch. Hell, yeah. And, and yeah, we would talk about a book club,

but... What about, what about our boys that collectible squids? I was throwing that off to you. Oh. Oh, okay. We'll go to collectible squizzes.com and use code Adrick,

and you get 15% off and, what is it? It's just flat shipping around the world or something? Flat shipping. Flat shipping to a flat shipping rate to America and at a discounted price. Hey, there you go. And, yeah, check them out. They have everything that we talk about after, podcast is done that week. It's very cool.

Which means we should probably have some chaos on among chaosy things after this episode because... Some word bear's shit. Lorgar. Lorgar! I don't know what the next book is going to be. I guess we'll probably figure it out at the end of this episode, huh? Yeah, you'll figure out this episode. Cool.

So, D.K.R. Our book, what was our book? It was the first heretic. I picked it. I remember people being mad because, well, not mad. but, you know, you gave me a couple of books to pick from. I picked the first heretic. Apparently, some people wanted Hell's Reach. I am actually very happy we did the first Heretic,

because it turned out to be quite a book. I don't know why we got British there, but it was quite a book. I think I found that of the 40K authors, Mr. Dembsky-Bowden are definitely my favorite. I like the books he's done the most. I think he adds a lot of depth I think his use of human characters

to contrast the Astardis is very welcome and it's quite it was quite good Yeah very good It's a great sort of Here learn about why Lorgar is out of his fucking mind

And the people who have made him out of his fucking mind Yeah Oh poor Argyltal Orgol So the first heretic is actually far more descriptive of the Horace Heresy than I expected. To me, I kind of forgot it's a Horace Heresy book. Because we get some big events in this book. Yeah, you get a lot of really big Horace Heresy events.

Like the ones that everybody talks about, right? Like you get the actual, you get to see the moment that the Imperium gets news that Horace has turned. You get the virus bombing. You get the drop site massacre. You get the aftermath of the drop site massacre. You get a lot of heresy stuff. You even get the great meeting

before the drop site massacre, which... Where Savitar offers the famous death to the false emperor line. Yes, he started that. And there was like, oh shit. Savitar, that's... You need a copyright claim that. Because debt to the...

Yeah, that's... That's where it comes from. I enjoyed the, uh, I enjoy a lot of those interactions, but the main focal point of the book is Lorgar, the word bearers, and Argel Tall, first captain of the serrated sons chapter. Mm-hmm. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, at least shy would probably know this. This, the chapters are actually a thing that they do in modern 40K. There are chapters. Mm-hmm.

But I believe that's because of the somewhat religious influence, I think. Or maybe, maybe not, but they don't have, I don't think they had chapters. Did they have chapters in Horace Heresy Time for other legions that were like, like, segmented? I don't know if they did. Well, I mean, in all fairness, the first heretic is a book, so of course it had chapters. Oh, my God. I couldn't help it. I'm so sorry.

Oh, my God. I couldn't help it, man. I know after the heresy, they got cut up thanks to the coax of Starties and separated into chapters of a thousand. But the fact that they had chapters and chapter masters was really kind of threw me off because I was like, wait a second, I thought this was a fucking heresy book. Chapter Masters are a thing in regular 40K. Oh, yeah, word bearers kind of did that stuff first. Yeah, it would make sense that they did it first. You know, since it's sort of highly religious and with all the chaplains and chapter masters.

I believe that. Yeah, that was certainly, like, it made sense because of how religious and hardcore they all were. Anywho, the book starts with the raising of Monarchia. It's a hell of a start. It's a hell of a start. I was like, damn, they're getting right into it with, like, the people of Monarchy getting, you know, absolutely bodied by Ultramarines and getting hurted away from Monarchia if they didn't want to die. So, yeah, they go in hot and heavy. I wish they used

So the VA is very good He doesn't have A lot of range at times And that was one thing that annoyed me near the end Because he was speaking as like Conrad Kerr's With this pompous The pious voice The pious like Primark voice

I'm like bro that is not curs Yeah I don't think he quite has The Knight Lord vibe down Or at least what I would expect a knight lord to sound like but the voices that he did nail he absolutely nails I think his Lorgar

is Arjol tall all that's pretty good he has a very good female voice it was very easy to tell the difference with Sireini who is our who is kind of like what would you call her before before because she was like a religious

person in like a slum or something but kind of reminded me of like one of the like she couldn't like show her face kind of, I think she could, but like, what's that thing when you wear, like, the really large, uh, black, like, um, it's not a burka, is it?

I'm not sure what you would call it. Cirene was kind of a weird character because at the outset, I thought she was going to be like the one of the main characters that we saw, like the 40K world through, like we would see it through her eyes and she's, well, I guess that's, she goes, she's blind. She's blind because she stares right.

at Monarchy as the Ultramarines bomb the shit out of it, and it makes her go blind. But I guess I thought she was going to be more of a main character. Not that she wasn't, but it's really more about seeing it from Argyll tolls,

or gel tolls, but I don't know why I can call it Argyll. The first third of the book is very Cyrene-heavy. Because it's put into three parts. It's the raising of monarchy and how the Legion deals with it afterwards. and then it's the pilgrimage

and then it's the beginning of the heresy. Yeah. After that first third, she kind of just she kind of falls into the background a little bit. Like she's still there. Argyl Tal is still kind of infatuated with her, but you don't get a whole lot more of Cyrene. No, you don't, unfortunately. I actually liked her as a character.

I thought she brought a very, well, human, but a different mindset with everything. She did serve her purpose. Yeah, she did. And yeah, it's mainly, more about Argyltal, who is one of the first captains, who I think I'm not super interested in Argyltal as a character, but he becomes far more interesting based on the things that happened to him, as opposed to like him himself. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, he's a character

that's made better by his circumstances, not because he himself is a particularly interesting character. Yeah. But he is certainly made interesting by his circumstances. And I think, I think his little, like, there's obviously no attraction with him and Cyrenee because... Oh, no, of course not. That would never... A space Marine? No, no. Yeah.

Well, they specifically state that, too, to make it clear. But they're a little dynamic. This, like, kind of friendship they have is really, it's kind of nice. Yeah. It's kind of sweet, you know? It kind of breaks down his barriers a little bit. Mm-hmm. That's kind of feel like even though they say that, I'm not entirely sure how true.

it is. Space Marines don't have sex. Or so they say. Well, if anyone's having sex, it's chaos space marines, so we'll see. Yeah, we'll see in the future. We'll see. But yes, the raising of I wish the VA did more of Gilman's voice. He had a very good ultramarine

voice or it's like, set us in clear from the area immediately. Yes, he definitely nails that sort of like pious you know, um, um, looking down his nose at you sort of voice. He does that very, very well. So he does a great, great ultramarine.

Yeah. Not quite pious. More like, like, snooty sort of. Veteran general. Holyer than now. Yeah. Like someone speaking to someone below a blow rank.

Yeah, definitely. But the raising of anarchy and the subsequent psychic kneeling of the entire Warburers Legion in front of Gilman and his troops is a blow to the ego to say the least. Yep. I mean, I knew it was coming, and it was still like, damn, Biggie, like, damn, Giliman, damn, Ultramarines. Because I think I said it in the main episode, but I didn't realize that Biggie psychically forced them to kneel in the ashes of monarchy.

I kind of figured it was just like the word bearers were like, oh, it's Biggie, he's telling us to kneel, he's going to punish us, okay, I guess we have to. I didn't realize and I think the book specifically says like yeah this isn't obedience this is slavery like we're being forced to do this like we're doing this totally against our will

so naturally that that breaks the faith in the emperor they have a decently interesting conversation with Corferam and Arabists who are fuckers oh god they're such bastards they're bastards in the book

before we even know about them in general they're just like they're just assholes Yep, they sure are Arabis has this like Such is holier than thou Vibe to him He's so

Like Such a dick Arjol tall The chaplainhood I am the trusted advisor of Laura I shut the fuck up Yeah

Whenever Arabis talks He's like shut the fuck I don't care what you have to shut the fuck up But yeah He is such a snooty bastard Oh my God Does anybody like Arabis talks? Like genuinely, does anyone like

Arabis? If people like Arabis, they say people who like Perchiravo where he's like, he's just a cunt. Maybe, yeah, but Arabis is just such a dick. Yeah, yeah.

I can see liking him in the same way that someone would like the Joker. Not necessarily because they're good people, but it's like, oh man, look at how much of a fucker this guy can be. It's kind of cool, you know? It's kind of fun how hardcore of an asshole he is.

Mm-hmm. He read this. Despite that I hate his absolute guts. He might be one of the most hateable characters I've read. And he doesn't even done anything particularly hateable. I just hate him. Oh, yeah, definitely. But that kind of goes on the mindset of the word bears taking the pilgrimage.

He speaks with Magnus a little bit. That's a nice conversation. I like that. I still love the fact that when Magnus leaves, just... just blows up the chamber and Lorgard just he's just kind of standing like oh yeah no big deal

and all of his soldiers come, it's like, what happened? He's like, huh? I don't know, what are you talking about? It's fine. It's like, everything is in ruin. What the fuck? It's like, oh yeah, Magnus just left. You know,

Magnus was like, oh, bye. I'm out of here. But it's actually kind of sweet seeing the word bearers in the first, uh, the first, like,

third of the book. they're genuinely like decent people. Oh yeah. The way they treat the civilian population is very kind. They almost probably like salamanders. Yeah, they are very respected by the populace of the shit, what was that city?

It's like the city of gray stars or something. The city of gray flowers. Flowers, why did I think gray flowers? Yeah, gray flowers. And the blessed lady and they were given all their little name scrolls. to like, Argyl Tal gives it to like a kid or something. He seems like, they seem like very upstanding Astardis.

They seem like very, they're just good guys. They're just good guys. They're just good guys. Good guys. Good guys. Not little. Not these guys. No, they're not little.

They're space Marines. They're big guys. But they're just good guys. They're good guys. They're great guys. Good guys. But they're good guys considering their situation. They're kind to their populace.

Yes. But that, of course, can't last. Because this really is a tragedy of a book. Oh, yeah. Definitely a tragedy. Not a lot of happiness comes by the end of this book. No, it's quite the turn. Like the first third year, you're sad because monarchy, but you're learning about everybody.

You're getting it set up. The pilgrimage happens. And, man, that's a... Lorgar, my dude. You don't fucked up. You really talk about how much you like your sons, but man, do you throw them out needlessly? Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. I know he, I'm actually a little bit, I kind of feel bad.

We'll talk about it in the word bearers episode after, but I kind of skipped over a lot of the Lorgar pilgrimage because I was still reading that part. And I finished it all yesterday. Whoa. I realized that, no, not the whole thing. Oh, okay. I thought you made you finished from Lurgaardt. Lorgar's Pilgrimates to the end of the book yesterday and I was like, holy shit

that's like 10 hours you spend just reading. Jesus! No, no, I thought that they would cover the rest of Lord, like Lorgar's personal pilgrimage to the eye. Yeah, they just skip right over that. They're just like oh, 40 years later. Yeah, they

go straight to the Horace Harris. I'm like, oh shit, okay, I might need to cover a little bit of that in the Word Bear's episode. Yeah. Because I don't know what happened there. I got to look it up. But pilgrimates to the eye involves them going to pre-Cadia. Yeah, they go to Cadia. Before it was Cadia.

And everybody there has their creepy purple eyes because of a giant warp storm around them. It's sort of, you know, malform their eyes. And everybody is speaking cultious. Yeah. Yeah. Colchis. And all the custodians are like, what do you mean they're speaking Colchisian? I know Colchisian.

I don't know what the fuck they're saying. And I can't read anything either. What's going on? The answer, my friend. Is chaos. It's chaos. It's a chaos language. It's just chaos.

It's called Colchizian is just chaos. Well, isn't that what the old ways basically are is essentially just belief in the chaos. Chaos worship. Yeah. They believe in the four gods and they're, oh, they're the four great gods and, oh, really? This man literally was raised by an abusive father on a chaos worshipping planet and he came out mostly okay until now. Yeah. Kind of shocking, honestly.

He just wanted the truth. That's, yeah, and those are sort of, those are some famous Lorgar words too, right? I just wanted the truth. I didn't want to overthrow the empire. I didn't want to cause the downfall of the Imperium. I just wanted the truth. He got it. Yeah, he did.

Because down to the Acadian planet, they had decided to have a fucking chaos ritual. And end up killing a custodian. What were your thoughts on the custodians in this book? Oh, man. It almost seemed like, they didn't because I always held custodians in a much like it seemed like they were so much higher than everyone

since they only answered the emperor they spent all their time in the blood games which actually I thought it was kind of funny that one of the custodians was like oh yeah this is let's definitely hang out with them and the other one's like yeah you just don't want to go back to tear and do the blood games because you suck at them yeah it seemed like the custodians

custodians always kind of fell a little too easy. Like, they were stronger, but they didn't seem like, I guess, what I pictured a custodian to be. That is kind of how I felt. I felt that they were a little bit, a little bit weak. Like, they still killed off. The problem is, is that it depends on the writer, right? You know, we read Gaunt's ghosts, and it's basically the expendables. Like, they...

The guards that are killing space marines, chaos space marines. Yeah. And then you read the Night Lord's trilogy, and Talos alone is like butchering 50, 100 people in that, in like the, what was the part when he's storming the flagship. And it seems, because that was written by Aaron Debsky about him, and so is this. And Arjel Tal and his word bears definitely feel like the space marines I thought of Talos and First Claw is, like that level of space marine. But custodians can vary between being much better than space marines to being demigods, to being like near Primark level.

Yeah, I guess that's how I always picture them as being like almost near prior. Like they couldn't go toe to toe with the primark, but anything under a primark, they're just like, oh yeah, I got this. Which I guess in a sense they did, because on Kadia, the guy that they killed and used as a sacrifice to the chaos gods. Yeah, they impaled him. He killed like four word bearers before they killed him. That's true. He sliced through those few word bears like a hot knife through butter.

He did. And I know Constantine Valdor, I think, was actually able to go toe to toe with some primarks. He was like the Captain General, the Indian guy. Damn, that's pretty good. But I kind of expected the custodians to be maybe a little less chatty. Oh, right, right. Yeah, that's true. They are very well, except, what's his, what's his face?

Sinus. Oh, the guy who took a vowel of silence. He literally took a vow of silence, so he can't be chatty until his last moment. Which, which I will say, I really did like how he had this last moment. We'll talk about that later, but, um... His last moment is great. It is pretty good. But, like, I liked Aquilon.

I thought he was cool. Yeah, Aquilon was cool. He had a two-handed power store, which is quite rare. actually. Yeah. He's just doing his duty, trying to stay faithful to the emperor, and he's just got thrust into all this fucking madness.

I'm assuming he probably looks like this. They made a new model recently called the Blade Champion. It's the only custodies model I know that has like a two-handed sword. Oh, yeah, he probably does. And there wasn't, yeah, there wasn't like a two-handed sword. The rest of them normally used guardian spears, you know? Yeah. Which is, uh...

How popular is the first heretic? This is a pretty popular book, right? Would they make Horacee Menis based on the first? Like, Argyltal. They did. Oh, they did! I think I showed it to you. I'll show it to you again real quick, but, uh, yeah, Arjotol does have a mini.

They actually released this quite recently. Oh, shit, that's so dope. Oh, I must have seen it because he's got an ultraming split in half in his hand. Good for him. Yeah, so naturally. What a Chad. Good for you. Yeah, I showed you the image of him and Karn

Being buddies which was always funny Oh, right, right, right, right, okay, cool Yeah, Archelaal has a mini I do think it was rather recent That it actually came out But despite that all Yeah, the custodies, I felt like were a little Like, I don't need the

Because wasn't there a story about like six custodians Like holding off like Tiernd and High Fleet or some shit But then there was also like a story of like a 10 custodies Dying to like a troop of Harlequin and so I I don't like I don't know where we stand on the custodies thing I'd like them to be a little stronger than they were in the

first heretic and a little less chatty a little more stoic they kind of have a little bit of a bizarre they speak a little too um I don't know casually casually yeah uh at least least it personally

I guess you could also just like there's varying degrees of custodies where some are probably like more powerful and maybe these were like some of the more mid-tier lower custodians but yeah it's it's like shy said it's gonna fluctuate wildly based on the writer and how they sort of interpret the custodians and how strong they should be true true actually shy makes a good point remember how two orc boys and a grop destroy a titan and brutal cutting it's fair that's fair it's very fair yep Um, yeah, it's, it's a little, little bizarre, but, you know, I actually like the custodius for the most part.

Yeah. Um, because they did end up causing some real fucking problems. Like, they killed half the crew on the, on the ship they were in at the end of the book. Yeah, the de profundes. De profundes. Yeah, they profundus. Fucking, those goddamn, uh, names. The Fidelitist Lex.

Fidelia, yeah, yeah. God, Lorgar, you're a bitch. Also, I'm pretty positive that the robot that was used in the book by, what was the name of the Admet guy? Oh, yeah, Zinu. 447? Zinu some number, yeah, he was using what, incarnadine? Yeah, which I think it was a Costellan robots. I think it was the Among Us robots.

I might be wrong. I remember wanting to ask you what exactly that thing was, because it's sounds so crazy. Yeah, as it was blasting those weird glass monsters on that one planet. Yeah, it might be a custom. Oh, wait, no, it might be this Ligio-Cyrnetica thing.

It might be this thing. They're still going to have the similar, like, weird Mars look, but... That's very cool, that second one. I really like that one. Do those glass monsters actually exist? I guess they probably don't exist in the tabletop. I'd never heard of them before, but... I'm not sure. Though, I must admit, it's kind of funny.

If you look at the cover for the first heretic, it has a possessed word bear attacking a custodian. Yeah. Which is a big spoiler. That's a big. It's a very massive spoiler for the near end of the book, yeah. I guess you would just assume you would know what was going to happen because of that whole thing, but...

I guess, yeah. It's kind of like, I don't know, has me and the bag of shredded sheet. at 2 a.m. vibes right there. He is yellow. He is indeed. I've never had a bag of shredd. He's at 2 a.m. the morning. I know, but still.

Oh, Bricky. Oh, Bricky. What has your life become? This is this podcast. Same. But I'm going, so they eventually get sent. So they summon a

fucking demon using the blood of a custodian. Ingethel. Ingetel, the Ascended, which I'm really happy that the Ryard decided to talk like this every time the demon spoke. Oh, yeah. They do a great whispery demon, yeah.

Very good and easy for me to tell the difference between what he was talking as. But I'm assuming Ingetel was most likely Sledesh had a serpentine body forearms. Yeah, unhinged mouth. Yeah, I would assume Sladesh as well. Always moving. Always, like, moving around.

But, yeah, Ingetel basically said, hey, I'll be your guide into the eye of Terra. I'll be your guide in the eye and show you the truth that you want. And it's like, I need your sons. I need them two. I need Argyl Tal and what's the chaplain's name again? Oh, is the chaplain Zafin? Zafin.

Arjotal and Zafin. And the Wargars like, are you going to hurt them? He's like, yes. He's honest. The demon is honest anyway. Yeah, I am. The demon is honest. Wait, don't they take more than just Zafin and Arjoltol?

They take like the, they take Arjoltal's like whole squad? Yeah, but I think he pointed, I think the, I think he pointed to them at that like period of Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. The, uh, but the whole little part where he brings the demon on board and all the human just start puking. Yeah, and losing their minds. One of them just, like, stood up and shot his friend. Yeah. Although, hey, and Argyl Tal was like, I warned you.

I said, don't look at him. And you all looked at him. Stop it. I like when he removes his helmet and he's like, whoa, wow, this thing does smell. Wow, these humans here are tougher than I thought. God damn. That's right. They exist.

Oh, God. You humans with a little more respect. The demon takes them to the eye of terror and then basically is like, hey, here are the Eldar. This is what happened to the Eldar because they didn't believe in, because the god was birthed, but instead of believing in it and, you know,

giving it praise, they ran. And so Slanesha's pissed, which I don't think, parses correctly. I don't think the demon might be lying on that one. Yeah. Wow, the demon telling things that are skewed in chaos's favor. No way, dude.

Then they brought them to the gene laboratories of the primarks, which was a shocking, shocking destination. Very curious how you feel about this sort of twist that they threw in here. that the emperor brokered knowledge with the chaos gods to make the primarks and then did not uphold his end of the bargain, which is why they ye the primarks out there? Yeah, that he promised he would tell everyone about the primordial truth if he got the knowledge to make his sons. And then he was like, no, fuck you guys, I'm actually going to make an atheistic empire and fuck you and no one's going to ever know about you. and that was a weird turn of events. Also, his sons got yeeded because Argyl Tal and his squad were like,

oh, the emperor is a lying sack of shit. Break the Gellerfield and let chaos in. And how it was like timey-wimey bullshit. And I don't know how I feel about that whole scene. So the idea that the emperor brokered peace with demons are brokered a thing with demons in order to get the necessary knowledge to create the primarcs, and then didn't pull this end of the bargain,

that's why they needed them, is not the worst thing in the world? Like... It's probably not the worst. I don't know if it's great, though. I don't know if it's great either. It's a bit of a bizarre concept, and it has to be taken with a solid grain of salt

because we have, you know, because the demon could very easily be fucking lying. True, he could be making a hallucin. for them to see just to get them to get the need to turn on the emperor and go chaos and start worshiping chaos. True. It could all just be a hallucination that never actually happened, and that's not how it happened. That's the hard part. The question you have to assume is that, and this is a GW annoyance thing, but GW is doing this intentionally because they can choose not to take that path that they don't want to. and they because they which is their

not a retcon retcon retcon um I'm a recone yeah it's an unreliable narrator you know yeah

um I'm not sure how I feel about it though I think it's at least interesting I'm more interested about how they were talking about the second legion and uh

which is the the one that got expunged oh yeah the one that uh Magnus doesn't want Lorgar talking about because oh do you want you want to be like them huh

you want to be the third one that gets and then yeah they're talking like well we should just kill this fucking baby in here right now and remove the shame of that legion and like what the hell's going on like i don't understand he wanted to kill he wanted to kill baby gilliman he was like the 13th pod and he's like gillammy do it do it do it do it do it yeah well we wouldn't have fun gilliman now then that's true then we also wouldn't have ultramarines which is eh you know well they're getting better now because they're all sad sacrifices must be made you know what I mean

But despite that all, they obviously couldn't because where they were, I guess they didn't do anything. But, you know, it makes you wonder more about the Second Legion and what the hell they did wrong. I know there's an excerpt with Rogal Dorn and Malkador, I think, where Dorn is like, yeah, it's a lot like X or Y. and it's like we wouldn't want someone to be to we won't want someone to end up like and then Macuador's like hey you shut the fuck up you're not allowed to talk about that

I say knock it off Dorn you fuck although I do like the idea that it paints the emperor as like an imperfect being to the sons that think he's perfect like obviously we know that the emperor not perfect

quite a bad dad not the greatest leader, but sort of the shock that the word bears feel when they're like, oh shit, Biggie, not only not perfect, but he convenes with demons? The fuck? I kind of like seeing him be shown as almost human himself. What's the emperor book? Is that Master of Mankind, shy?

It has to be. Surely. Yeah, I'm assuming. But wasn't there, there's some. some book where people tell or say like you should read that book because it gives you a significantly larger amount of insight into the emperor and you think differently um i don't know it might have been master of mankind i'm not quite sure which one it was um but i could like because the last church didn't make me think much better of him maybe it was a fedor-tipping atheist asshole yeah yeah fair enough

Fair enough. But, I don't know. Despite it all, though, yeah, they lower the Geller Field against their intelligence, and then every single human crew on the ship fucking die, and then the demon possesses every single word bearer on the ship that's still alive. Yep, yep, and Argyl Tal gets a new friend. And it's not a friend that's, like, taking over him, like a shared body kind of thing. Yeah, it's not like Ingetel makes, or I guess it's not Ingathel that takes him over.

It's a different demon. It's one of his kin. But, yeah, it's not like it's forcing him to necessarily do anything. It's just sort of whispering in his ear. And sometimes it possesses him and makes him be like, oh, yeah, we are this, we are that. And Lorgar's like, no, shut up. You are Agletal. You, I, say I, say I, you bitch.

That was Lorgar's exact words. It was crazy when he was like, say aye, you bitch. bitch say I you are Argyl Tal but yeah it's it's crazy yeah it's kind of interesting how they kind of get the symbiosis him and the demon they're very they don't really fight each other for power they're more just like sharing the space and sometimes the demon has the more powerful strength

sometimes Arjota has the more powerful strength that really they're better together yeah which is interesting to see because you would just assume that a demon is going to do demony shit and just be like, nope, your body's mine now. It's bye-bye. I'm going to send you to the deepest recesses of your consciousness and just live your life for you. Get fucked, kid.

But it surprisingly didn't do that. Yeah, I thought it would go like it would on, like the exalted. We thought it was going to be the exalted kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. I was exactly thinking the exalted and, yeah. But no, it wasn't. It was not the exalted or anything like that. It was a symbiosis, so to speak.

And then after our big pilgrimage and the like And Lord Gargis' answers We We get a little bit of a Not a great side character With the picked Remembrancer guy Oh yeah Ishka

Ishkan Ish whatever his name is Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of him He just When he showed up it just kind of He's there again They're talking about him

Oh, look at him roaming around. He's in a bar. Cool, he's taking pictures. And I just kind of zoned out whenever he was around, to be honest. Yeah, I was not a very big fan of him overall, because his entire point was to get the custodians to find out what happened. Yeah, that was the only purpose he had was like he took a picture of like the demon engine on the ship or something, or some demon-y shit that they were making sacrifices for.

And he was like, oh, I guess I better show this to the custodian. and then off he goes. Well, he didn't do that. He got found out by the astropath. And the astrapath was like, now you better fucking take this to this. Oh, that's right. He's in the bar with the astrapath.

That's right. When the ship is getting attacked, then yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, it wasn't my favorite. It reminded me of that random gunnery lady at the end of Voidstocker. Just kind of there to be around and have discussion, yada, yada.

Mm-hmm. But I had a little flashback because as Arjolt Hall was running through the crew to get to the custodians. He was like killing them. And I was like, this seems familiar. And then... Where have I seen this before? Yeah.

And then the demon gets recessed. And Arjol is like, hey, hey, you're killing the crew. Stop! Stop that. You're killing the crew. Stop like, I'm taking control again. Oh, yeah, it's right. The non-demon doesn't want to kill the crew.

I'm too used to the regular guy what he's wanting to kill the crew. I'm so used to the pseudo-chaise base brain wanting to kill everything. Yeah. The shenanigans. Very shenanigans. Very shenanigans.

But, yeah, the, the going through after all that stuff, we kind of get to the heresy part of it. The, the drop site massacre is where we're at, which is crazy that we're at that point. Yeah. They also, I kind of like that they showed everybody's perspective as they were hearing about the heresy. I forget what planet they were trying to conquer with the custodians. or they were trying to conquer some planet or whatever and then just hearing everyone be like heresy, Horace, no

way. The emperor probably did something because Horace would, what the fuck? And then the custodian just being completely shook that there's heresy and it's Horace, what the fuck? Yeah, there's no way to be ever ever be horace. There'd never be fucking Horace.

The emperor probably fucked him because what the hell. Yeah, he's the guy. He's the guy. He's not a little guy. No, he's not a little guy. the guy. He's the guy. The guy. The guy. But the, yeah, the, uh, the good, the goddamn, uh, horace heresy kind of gets, gets itself all stuck in around. And, um, and they have their meeting. You get, I liked how they had all

of the various groups there, the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion, and word bears. Yep. And they all played their roles pretty, pretty well. Sevatar was an asshole as he is. As well, he should be. He's a knight lord. He's, well, he's kind of like the night lord. Aside from Conrad Curse, he is the knight lord of history. He is the fucking nightloid. They also had Malkarie in there.

Yeah, Melchari was there too. Yeah, I was like, ah, it's a gridon. Look at you. Look at him. Look at you. Well, he's not dreadnought yet. Not yet, no, but, uh, because I think Arselt's Hall was like growling because of the demon in him. And Seventon was like, shut up.

Seventi's not even. off puppies just shut the fuck up and then um all the perjurab and all the iron warriors because they're very like iron with it and iron without thing yep yep and then the alpha legions in the back they're just not saying a word

yeah they're just they seem very uncaring like they're just sort of bothered by it all yeah I just enjoy the concept that the alpha legion are in the bag just like snooping around like they're they're not really like rallying with uh all the

traitor legions are just kind of there scoping things out of down, you know. Are they loyalist spies? Are they actually in with this? I don't know. It's Alpha Legion. They're doing their thing, you know.

They are. They're being very Alpha Legion. Yeah, as is their main goal. As the Alpha Legion, it is indeed their main goal to be very Alpha Legion, yes. Yes, very creepy. Mysterious. You get your big death of the false emperor. You get your actual drop-site massacre, which I liked how they all,

operate the way they were supposed to. The Iron Warriors in particular landed. It immediately started setting up a shitload of turrets and gun placements and tanks. Of course. Of course. And then immediately started like shooting word bears. Stop shooting our troops.

Lull. Lomau. They're like, oh God, Corvus Korax is flying into the midst in the word bears and is literally ripping them the ribbons. Um, time to fire Las Canons at him. We're hitting the word bears. That's okay.

Whoops. Oh, well. Get Corvus Corax. Also, holy shit. The Dropside Masser made me like really like Corvus Corax, by the way. Yeah, it's like, I'm gonna fucking kill you, Lord Gar. Yeah, the way he flies around with his jump jet, like decapitates people with his metal wings and just, what on it? Like, there was there like a word bear that was rushing him? And they were like, yeah, Corvus Corax didn't even need to turn around. He just turned his jump jet on and burn that fucker alive. And it was like, Jesus!

He didn't even turn around! Oh, I think he's like, there's also the times where he just would turn around with his serrated wings and just slice people up. Yeah, and just slice people the ribbons. Oh my God, he's so cool. Holy shit. I don't care if his group was like all emo and black and white and whatever. So badass. Holy shit.

Yeah, it was really cool and very fun to watch. and how just absolutely furious he was at what was going on. Mm-hmm. He was fixing to kill the shit out of Lorgar. That's why it was funny to me that when Kerr stops him and he talks to this regal voice and I'm like, nah, dog. This is not, this ain't right.

Especially when, like, Kerr stops it and Corvus Korax flies away and, you know, he looks back and he's like, You are all, you are pathetic, loga. I will not save you again, Ptooy. It's like, I don't. I know, I was like, what the fuck? I don't know if that's the right voice for recurs, dude.

I don't think maybe you need to go back to the drawing board on that one. He should sound like a meth addict who's barely alive. Yeah, he needs to sound very drool and low and raspy and, yeah. At least they have the, at least they did a good proreble a little bit. Yeah. He wasn't around for much. He was just kind of there being bitter. Yeah, the Kerr's voice very, very odd.

Not Kerr. But then the Iron Warriors are shooting down Thunder Hawk gunships and stuff, fleeing the battlefield, and those gunships were landing on Word Bearer troops. And Argylt Tall literally is like, stop firing at the gunships. And the Iron Warrior genuinely laughs.

Yeah. He's like, calm yourself. It's like, calm yourself, Ward Bear. It's a large battle These things happen Yeah You'll be fine hangs up And I'm like

Oh my god He actually did lollamow him He did he lull him out him Just like the meme texts say But that fight with Lorgar and Corvus Was the psychic fire Where Lorgar's psychic power really comes to light And it's exactly when all of the Gal Vorebeck

Have their first transformation Yep Yep they all turn into demons A little possessed. Possessed. Yeah, they take their demonic forms. And Lorgar gets his halo and his fiery wings, and it is still not even close to enough to get him to be on par with Corvus Corax. Which is crazy. How strong is Corvus? Well, it's the fact that Lorgar isn't a fighter. Corvus is like an assassin.

Oh, that's true. Lorgar never wanted to be a fighter. He just, he wanted the truth. He wanted to praise the... That's true. That's fair. Corvus, like the Raven... Guard are about stealth and like assassinations. They're very, they have like lots of snipers and they've got their jet packs and stuff. Like Corvus is a, is a whirlwind of blades. Yeah. And he is made to kill and he is okay with it.

Yeah, that's true. Lorgard, not a fighter, not really. Also, funny enough, you know they actually made a brand new kit for possessed Marines just like a few months ago? They're not out yet. They just revealed them. Really? Yeah, they look great.

Let me see this. Oh shit, those do look great Yeah, they look really, really good Oh, fuck, that's, there's, oh, I would want to box of those Because I would want to make every variation of it Because there's so many cool variations on there Like the demon head looks cool

The clawed right arm thing Like the spider thing looks like That's great Those look so dope Yeah, they really do have a good look to them right there There's also the There's also these things called the torments, which we don't get in the, you know, fortunately we don't get in the book,

but they're basically cultists that have had demons taken over them. And these are some crazy models. The demon has very evidently gone the upper hand. No kidding. The demon has evidently gotten the upper hand. Yeah, I'd say so. Holy shit. Oh my God, that demon is coming on that dude's crotch.

What? Holy. The spider thing, that's very clearly coming out of his junk. I guess. Coming right out from his loincloth. Damn. Yeah, they're pretty nuts. Yeah, penis demons, dude.

Who would have thought? Anywho. Anywho, yeah, the big fight would they get all their possession. The custodians find out what's going on. Mm-hmm. They kill Sirene, which was a shocking thing I didn't expect to happen. Yeah, I was not expecting that. Like, because you see, what is it?

You see Aquilon and one of the others leave the room. And it's like, oh, yeah, that other custodian is dead. We need to make our way the fuck out of here. And you don't know that Cyrene is dead until Argyltal comes back on the ship. And it's like, oh, fuck, Cyrene's dead. The whole room is destroyed. Zinu's fucked. Incarnadine is dead.

What the fuck happened? Yeah, Incarnadine, the judge. giant robot was just there having a very uh um i can't feed you i know but he can yes kind of kind of moments he's in the back just like here i am gigantic ass robot kills kills one custodian um which kind of surprising like should should that should robo boy be able to defeat it well again i guess it depends on the writer and how strong they perceive certain things and how strong i think a custodian should be it was a pretty big one it was It's called the Conqueror Primus

Of the Legio Cybernetica I don't know what a Conquer Primus Okay, so it was the second robot I showed you, I think Okay, cool Or maybe, actually I don't know It's big, it's a big robot It's a big robot, maybe, maybe not, I don't know That's that's kind of what I imagine

Because at the time I didn't know what a Conqueror Primaris was So I was just like, ah, it's probably a big fuck-off robot I mean, actually I think so, yeah is a big fuck-off robot that caused some problems and probably shot up or beat the shit out of at least one custodium because they were also dealing with the humans in the back. That's true. The half of the guardsmen that were there and then died.

It probably very swiftly died. But it's got a good bit, got a good at least enough ending where they kind of set up how him and Aquilon would duel him, Argeltaal. And Aquilon would duel all the time. and Aquan would always put him on his ass consistently because, of course, he would. Because he's a custodian. And it also, like, it also really set up that they're actually, like, really good friends. And they're practically...

I mean, towards, I feel like one... Mutual respect. Maybe not, like, full on. Me, I don't know. I kind of got the vibe that they were actually kind of close. With their, like, sparring and, like, when they would talk. It seemed like they were kind of close. And then, yeah.

But there's that scene at the end that makes me think that they were maybe a little closer to. But yeah. Maybe. I'm not quite sure if I'm fully on that. But regardless, they, yeah, they find them on the surface. And then you get, you get like, what was it, 11 possessed word bearers versus four custodies, three custodies? Three custodas, yeah. Three custodies.

And I think they kill five possessed? I think so. because um which is still pretty impressive that that's that's fair yeah i'll give him that one because uh argyl tall and uh aquilon do end up fighting

and uh argyl tall rips aquilon's head off his shoulders spine and all because you know no matter how strong these custodians are they are outnumbered uh more than three to one

yep by demons by chaos space marine demon word bear monstrosities. Right. Chaos possessed. Yeah. And then I think the last custodian to die is the one that took the vow of silence. Yes, with his wonderful final lines.

He throws his spear, it hits Zaythin square in the chest, sends him flying backwards, just absolutely getting wrecked, and his last words, I always hated you, Zafin. Yep, with a hearty chuckle. And he's like, I always hated you, Zafin.

So Zafin's fucking dead. Zafin is dead dead. He just, he got impaled by this custodian spear and just, boom. Yep. I think crazy. They lost a lot, they lost a lot. They lose a lot of possessed Marines. And possessed Marines do, are pretty tough.

Actually, I mean, in the game doesn't mean much, but they have about the same stat line as custodies, actually. Um, a very similar stat line. Same toughness, same amount of health. Yeah, not as good armor, though, because they're fleshy. Yeah, that's, this was wild. Shy, did you, is that an epic embed fail? Embed fail laugh at this user.

Oh, no, it's not. It's, uh, wow, that's shocking. This is a... Is that Arjoltel stat sheet? Is Arjolt Hall's stat sheets? Though this does not look like it's the stat sheet for 40K. This looks like 30K. Well, it would have to be, right?

Is Arjol actually in 40K as a thing? No, it's definitely not. Yeah, I'm looking at the weapon skill and ballistic skill. This is definitely 30K. Yeah, it would have to be, right? Yeah, jump infantry, has artificer claws. That's one strength, 3AP. Makes sense that he has artificer claws,

because that's one of the things he duels Aquilon with. Yeah. It's interesting. There's the warlord, master of the Vakrajal. He also has the special rule damned. You know what the special rule never counts as a scoring unit. Regardless of the provisions. Eh, interesting.

Fascinating. Yeah, the power closet, one of the things that he actually managed to put Aquilon on his ass with. And then two seconds later, Aquam was like, yeah, well, now you're on your ass. Bitch, that's the way it should be. Yeah, he reversed that one quick, but it was still kind of cool to see it. Yep, yep. You know, it was nice. It's pretty good.

It's pretty good. Yeah. I enjoyed the ending is kind of a, is a pretty hefty kind of, not sort of a cliffhanger, but it's pretty hefty. It just stops. Most likely because the book after this is, I believe, betrayer. I think so. One of the wiki said what preceded it and what's the book that follows.

And I can't remember if Nemesis is the one that precedes that are followed. follows. Or is it, or is it, let's see. But yeah, there's a nice little scene where at the end

where Argyl Tal has Aquilon's sword and he has the data pad with Cyrene's last words and he's like, oh man, all my brothers are gone. This sucks.

And then the demon's like, now I'm your brother. Yeah, it's like, no, like your brothers aren't gone. It's me. I'm your brother. I'm like, oh no. The demon is.

The demon's trying to move in rent-free. Yeah, he sure is. But that's why I thought that maybe, like, they were a lot closer because he was like, you know, he sort of kept Aquilon's blade as not necessarily like, oh, look at me, I killed a custodian, but more sort of mourning the fact that Aquilon is dead. So if we want to, if we're following the Horace Heresy,

specifically Horace Heresy, there are a couple other books first, like Prospero Burns, I think is one of them. But if we want to go, straight to, but they're not Argyl Tal related. Oh, so if we want to follow Argyl Tall. If we want to get the direct sequel to

Argel Tall, we will be reading Betrayer. Is that what we want to do? Do we want to follow Argyltal for a couple books? We are absolutely fucking reading Betrayer. I don't, I don't care. All right, I guess our next book is Betrayer then. Yes. Okay, cool.

Wait, hold up. Ah, damn it. Can I pick up the books Betrayer and the First Heretic as long as I know what's going on. I'll share you everything before. First Heretic works just fun without reading anything else. I recommend No No Fear between First Heretic and Betrayer, not because you have to, but because it's a great book.

Oh, so we can't just go right to The Betrayer. No, No, No Fear might be a good book and a nice little middle primer, but we can just go right to the Betrayer, it sounds like. Betrayer is often spoken as the best, if not equal to Horace Rising in the Horace series. I've had many of people tell me Betrayer is by far the best Horace book. And I got other people tell me that's really damn good. Maybe not the best, but really fucking good. So I'm going Betrayer. We're doing Betrayer. It's time. It's the Latar Seren book anyway, so. Oh, hell yeah, brother. Hell yeah. It's time for some Karn. It's time for

some Angron. It's time for some abs. It's time for some abs. Let's go. It's time for that heresy to be in full swing. Hell yeah, let's go. Also, it's crazy that we did sort of a very brief overview of what we thought of the book, and this episode is still going to be almost an hour long. Can you imagine if we tried to do like a super in-depth summary of like every little thing that happened? We'd be here all fucking day. It's like a 15-hour listen.

Yeah. It's a lot happens. It's very good. Would highly recommend. Highly recommend. Yeah. It's definitely up there in terms of favorite books that we've read so far. It's way up there.

It's pretty good for me. It doesn't eclipse the Night Lord's trilogy, and it doesn't eclipse Gonst Ghosts. But it's pretty up there. I put it on equal terms with Caiaphas Kane. So I feel the same. It doesn't eclipse the Night Lord's trilogy. and I don't think it eclipses the really cool Necron books that we read but I would put it above Gaunt and Caiaphas Kane

Right I know you're not as big on the on the guardsman stuff as I am Shocking you're big on guard stuff no way Hey hey Yeah, yeah what of it Yeah what of it We'll fight you'll fight by it You ho Jeez.

Sorry. God. Good. I'm so mean about him. All right. That's our episode today. Arjell Tall did not share his brother's relish. I need the relish for my hot dog.

No. Give it back. It's mine. No. No. No. And that's all that matters.