Adeptus Ridiculous - THE LOST PRIMARCHS: [REDACTED] | Warhammer 40k Lore

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

https://www.patreon.com/AdeptusRidiculoushttps://www.adeptusridiculous.com/https://twitter.com/AdRidiculoushttps://orchideight.com/collections/adeptus-ridiculousPrecious little is known about two of the twenty Space Marine Legions, numbered II and XI, and their respective Primarchs, as their records are simply noted as having been "expunged" or "destroyed" in Imperial listings of the 20 Legions. However, nothing is known for sure about the names of the Legions, their Primarchs, homeworlds and their ultimate fate. There are conflicting reports as to whether the two unknown Legions met their fate prior to or after the Horus Heresy and which side they joined in the Heresy, if they participated in it.Support the show

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Adeptus Ridiculous podcast. My name is D.K. Diamantis, his name is Bricky. And why is Kariath here? We'll find out in a minute. But before we get into all that, if you enjoyed today's episode and maybe you want to support the podcast, heading over to patreon.com slash Adeptus Ridiculous, where you can get access to the Discord, bloopers if they happen. $15 tier gets you access to all of our posters in Krispy HD Digital format.

Also, you can follow the Patreon on Apple. on Google, on Facebook, on MySpace, on pretty much those regular ones. You can also start a free trial of the Patreon, but it will require a credit card number. So be aware, patreon.com slash adeptus ridiculous. Hello, Bricky. Good morning. Good morning. It is a morning of the days for the day. We got cool stuff happening soon, but including merch and things. So check it out. But don't, you know, we got like, I think next week,

week? It should be next week where we have a whole bunch of new items for a drop, possibly involving objective markers, possibly involving new dice, restocks. Maybe there's a desk mat in there. Maybe there's some, you know, we'll get there when we get there. We'll get there when we get there. Exciting. Very fun stuff. And then, yeah, go read false gods. There's some false gods out there. I've been told that they're false. Wow, the false gods, you've been told that they're false and you believe them? Well, it depends. I mean, fault, like...

Depends who's saying it, doesn't it? I mean, technically the chaos gods are, they exist. It's just, you know. They do. Like, you can't really say that the chaos gods are false gods because that would assume that they're not real and they are very real. Maybe their message is the thing that's false and that's what makes them false gods because they just keep lying like Zinch.

They do. They do lie. Well, some of them lie a lot. I think some of them are like pretty up front, though. I feel like corn, very blood. Exactly. You know what you get. You don't need to worry about being misled there.

It's just, you know, it does what it says on the tin. It's just he wants blood. That's it. That's all you got. And skulls. He wants skulls. That's true. That's true.

Yeah, I mean, that is the thing. Some of them are definitely lying to you. Others of them probably, probably not. Yeah, okay. Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. Well, speaking of things that are false, lies and so on, we have, we have an episode

today, naturally. And, well, hmm, I guess, Kyaroth, I got a quote, but do you have a quote? Are you, do you have anything in particular that you're interested in to roll with? I think, I think go with your quote. Let's go with your one. I mean, I'm going to get them both wrong. So if you both want to say them, feel free. Like.

See, the issue is that a lot of the quotes kind of just immediately state it, which I'm sure you had the same issue with grabbing. Yeah, that's why I was sort of, I'm not going to lie, I sort of passed that straight back to you because I struggled to find anything that wasn't. And here is what we're talking about, spelldowns in detail. If you guys just want to forego the quote part and we're, you know, we can start talking about it and nobody can look stupid, I'm, I'm here for that. All right, here you go. here's a quote. This is from the novel called Scars. This is a novel called Scars mentioning Jagatai Khan. Has this much power ever been concentrated in so few in so few pairs of hands? He wondered the entire galaxy entrusted to 20, no, 18 brothers. The peril of it is obvious.

That's it. I mean, that's it. That just sounds like we're going to talk about like the primarks. Maybe a little, there's a little bit more to it. Define Primark. Yeah. What do you mean define Primark? The sons of the emperor, they got the good gene seed. They got that good, good seed. Well, maybe they don't have a very good gene seed.

That's kind of part of the concept. I guess it's always kind of like there's always a little mutation, right, that gives them a little, you know, funky lust for blood or something. Over the course of the Great Crusade, the Emperor was reunited with each Primark earned turn and save two, whose secrets are far beyond his record. Each was sooner or later placed in command of one of the Emperor's Space Marine Legions as its master, second only in authority to the Emperor himself. Oh, that's another quote? Yeah. Oh.

Is there any way that we, like, I can't imagine there's some way we're talking about the lost primarks because, you know, they're lost. and nobody knows about them and every record of them has been yeeded out of existence. Yeah, but isn't it exciting to talk about why the record has been yeeded out of existence? Yeah. Sure. Oh, is that what we're doing? Yeah. Hey!

Yeah. I'll chalk that up as a win. Let's go. Big W. It only took two. Uh, yes. Today we're doing an episode on the two lost primarks. Uh, the two lost.

Lost legions, the second and the... 11th. Yay! Nice. The second and the 11th primarks. The, now, as I always have said before, but always lied. I don't know if this is actually going to be a short episode because of this, but we tend to just shoot the shit regardless.

But obviously, you're correct. There is not much lore on the second and 11th. Arguably, there is meant to be almost no lore on them. But, um, I'm, Kyrioth, I'm assuming that you utilize the Warhammer 40K Lexicanum for a lot of this. Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like the, especially for, when it comes to stuff that Games Workshop has deliberately kind of kept hidden, but hinted out heavily. Like, Lexiconum is really good for that stuff.

Because for, for like, the two lost prime marks, given that we don't know, you know, what they're called, what they're, legions were, where they landed, or anything to do with them other than they're lost, there is a fairly hefty amount of stuff where they're kind of mentioned, but not really mentioned, but mentioned enough that you kind of get a little bit of an idea as to maybe what might have happened, kind of, but absolutely nothing confirmed. And there's still like, kind of conflicting stuff going on. I think when it comes to like, games watch that's very good at leaving, like, gaps in the law, so you can, like, fill it in yourself. The two lost primarks are, I think, one of the really good examples where they've done it super well.

Yeah, that's kind of how I always looked at the second and 11th. Like, they specifically made it really, like, they didn't give you anything because it's like, oh, yeah, this is just your sort of self-insert, you know? Insert whatever Space Marine chapter you create for your tabletop. and just be like, oh yeah, we're the lost ones. We've been lost for a while, but here I am. I'm the second Legion or I'm the 11th. And I was kind of thought that was like the whole point was don't give them anything on either

of those because it's the self-insert. That was the whole point in like 1993, you know, or whatever time frame it was way back when. Yeah, because obviously you had the loyalists and the traders and two missing legions means that you can customize your loyalist one and customize your trader. one. And that's great, but that's absolutely horrible from like a meta narrative perspective. That's cute and adorable for a tiny miniature game in your basement back in like 1990s before we like I was born. Before the big tournaments happened and yeah.

Well, no, not even tournaments before like lore happened, you know, like before they really upped the lore ante for a while. But yeah, I mean, they started talking about the lore of the missing primarks as long. late as second edition. The Ultramarines Codex specifically of the second edition way back when does start mentioning it. So the lore did start to expand over time. But yeah, at the way back when it was,

hey, here's your cool legion. You get to play as on either side as your fun self-insert. But we have since long ago abandoned that idea. Oh, okay. But they have also like kept, it's like they've abandoned it.

but they have also kept little elements of it in. Like, if we, when we talked about the soul drinkers, there was like a whole kind of theory about the idea of maybe they are related to something that is not quite right in terms of them being successes of the, of the imperial fists, because apparently, in the term, in terms of like the legions being kind of moved away from the lost primarks and absorbed elsewhere, the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines got a bunch of them. And so the Soul Drinkers are both Imperial Fists, but don't have

Rogel Dorn's genetic markers, so they are technically successes, but the gene seed doesn't match, and even though they've kind of moved into it being a bit more kind of, it's not like 100% cut and dry, but it's a lot more concrete than it was. There's still little things they kind of throw in here and there that are like, oh but we don't actually know where this chapter comes from so it could be anything and it's kind of up to up to the reader to kind of put the like connect the dots and work out where that came from there's also a lot to be done with the this is why i mentioned the lexicon before because there's basically

two major like information wikis for 40k there's the main one which is very long and extensive but also a little bit more like quote unquote epic a bit more storytellee and so like that. Lexiconum is is much more concise, broken down, smaller, but everything is sourced and they place the sources down in the bottom of the page. So it's definitely a way for you to be able to get pretty much always accurate information. But particularly here, I really enjoy it because and this is always the biggest issue when it comes to 40K lore. How do you make an episode? on Dante without reading like devastation of Ball and Dante you know like in order to properly do a lore episode you often need to read an entire goddamn novel

which is very aggravating so have you're telling me yeah oh yeah yeah yeah or an omnibus perchance or 2000 pages of soldier kissing like two weeks oh man for for an hour and a half long episode so having these little sources or really good because you can kind of point to them and so on. But what's particularly nice is that this page actually goes down and discusses all of the mentions of the two missing primarks in the various books throughout the years, which is a very nice and handy way to find some interesting stuff. And some of it, particularly the last council short story, kind of caught me off guard.

Okay. I'm not sure if you know that one, uh, Keriath's. Honestly, that one got me as well. I hadn't read that or listened to it, so I just didn't know it existed. This is really just hammering home if you are like getting into 40K. One of the best things to do is just go through, go through, let's a caron. Go through and like find specific things you're interested in and you will get actual good, good accurate info. and there's not as much like speculation as you might find elsewhere. And I realize I'm saying that whilst we're going to be speculating about the lost primarks. But like, you know what I mean.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. There's a lot of that. Something shy just mentioned was actually a thing I was going to bring up. It was in the 9th edition Custodes Codex. And yeah, that's actually in this list as well. So it's, it's pretty good.

Anyway, Kiryoth, do you want to take the lead? You want me to take the lead? you know what you you go ahead you go ahead woo all right curious like it's your podcast you lead i get to the yay yay me so uh obviously the two unknown legions are the second and the eleventh uh and they are very very often referred to as being expunged or destroyed uh normally the phrase is often utilized as expunged uh or some kind of like removed from the record it's very like kind of black ink kind of you know old school

like confidential like hey this has been expunged from the record you have been removed from history in a way yeah the big redacted the big redacted obviously and this is more for our viewers who are a bit newer here don't quite fully understand it just as a little bit

of a re contextualization the emperor created 20 primarks eventually it became 21 when Alfarious turned into Omega on and they split but for the most part when they were drifted out through the warps over the decades or centuries or so, they eventually came into a world, were fostered by adopted human parents,

unless your Conrad Curs, who ate rats and children. Yep. Yippee. And then in turn, they all were found over time, took part in the Great Crusade, and so on.

Now, the only ones that we do not know much about, because normally it's the 18 legions, means that there were two that were completely wiped from history. And in the beginning, in the Ultramarines Codex back in second edition, it was stated that they were destroyed

following the Horace but that appears to have been a retcon now as very, very often throughout the other books, they have mentioned them taking place in fighting during the Great Crusade and were not present

whatsoever during the Horace heresy. So that's kind of a fascinating concept is that these two legions, because if I'm not mistaken from something that Fulgram said or someone in the Third Legion Stadium, is that the Primarchs were found, one in the first half of the Great Crusade, and the other one was found in the second half of the Great Crusade. I believe if we nail the timeframes down correctly, it's 23 years into the Great Crusade

and then 129 years. And it's assumed that the first one, the second Legion was found as the third found of Primark. and the other one much farther down the line. Okay. But we don't know anything about them. We just know that's around the time they were found. Pretty much. And it really like ups the significance of that first like finding.

The fact that one of the prime marks that was lost was that early on. And presumably, provided they stuck around for a while and actually participated, would have had a fairly big impact on how they, the Great Crusade progressed. I like that they've done that because it kind of lends a lot of of strength to that particular primark and to that legion.

That previously, with the Ultramarines Codex in second edition, it's just a case of, yeah, it seems like they probably fought for Horace and were destroyed, which is kind of a bit dull and not actually that narratively interesting, but someone being found early on and then being got rid of, like, before the heresy

even happened, that kind of speaks of something a bit more, like, sinister and a bit more interesting than just flat out chaos kind of thing. Yeah, I'm always curious what could have, like, made them wipe out the second and 11th Legion, because it's like, you know, Lorgar was up to some weird stuff. He was very like, hey, maybe stop worshipping me, or I'm going to burn monarchy down. It's like, Emperor's like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to, I'm just going to burn your place down, but I'm not going to like straight up get rid of you and your Legion. And it's like, damn, what the second and 11th Legion do?

That was like, yeah, we're just expunging your asses from all of history ever. That's so hilarious that you specifically mentioned Lorgar, because, you know, chaos Bible known as the first heretic book and also Kirillow's favorite novel, I'm pretty sure has him literally state that. I think Lorgar says, and I quote, I fear the emperor will break the word bearers and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of.

Oh, does it really? Yeah, he fully, like, recognizes that things are going so badly in terms of how he's viewed by the emperor, that he is, like, legitimately concerned about being just wiped from all record and existence by the emperor, which is kind of impressive for a prime mark to be like, oh boy, I'm worried about, like, being removed from existence. That's not great.

Like, yeah, there's, that's the thing as well, as Shal has pointed out, if the, one of the things to talk about is if the legions were actually wiped out. Oh, right, or if it was just like the prime mark and then the Legion just scatters, like that kind of thing? There's a couple of different things around the legions themselves,

specifically like the numbers of the Ultramarine. where in, oh, which book is it in? Where it's, I think it might actually be in the first heretic as well. What a book. What a book. It's the best one. So it is actually kind of hinted at that around the time that the second and 11th legions were just gotten rid of out of the imperial record,

the ultramarines seemed to gain a huge number of Astartis. They just got bigger as a legion somehow. As if two whole legions suddenly fell in line or something? Or at least the remnant? If I'm not mistaken, weren't the Dark Angels also really swelled by their ranks too? I thought I remember the Dark Angels also having a very large amount of people. Fists as well, yeah. Yeah, the Imperial Fists got bigger, but that wasn't like addressed until later on in the series.

The Dark Angels were originally the biggest Legion. by quite some distance, but then they lost a bunch of, like, a whole chunk of the Legion to the Rangdorn, I think they're called. So at that point, ultramarines became the most numerous Legion, but they probably wouldn't have been if they hadn't had a mysterious influx of space marines from somewhere. Air quotes, somewhere. It's also a thing that's important to kind of, like, point out. It's like, yeah, all right, so the time frame that they adjusted was post-heresy stuff, we now are familiar that both of the other primarks were during the Great Crusade. They were found the same way every other

primark was found. Some after, some before. If the F. Alferius's primark book is to be believed, which it probably isn't a dubious statement, is that Alfarious was the first primark to actually be found and was like headed along with malcador and folks and taught about a lot of espionage and the usual of course you know it's alfarius how much reliable narrator very unreliable um but with that being said uh it is very much known that all the other primarks are no like they know of them it's very like they are very often talked about the lost legions and how, oh, it's like a constant just background statement of like they're musing on like, oh, if only blank and blank, we could have blanked and blank with them.

And then Malcador's like, shut up. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say is what book we were just talking about it where it was like, someone was like, oh man, imagine if the second and 11th and Malcador is like, no, hey, hey, uh-uh, we don't. It was Dorn. Yeah, it might have been, yeah, and he's like, we don't talk about Bruno. Stop it. And yeah, it seems like it often gets brought up like that where it's like, it's shahs, hauss-h-taboo.

Yeah, you can't discuss it. Like, they're all sort of sworn to secrecy in silence and to not say their names and to not address that they were there. The funny thing with you mentioning Alpharian is we talked about Council of Truth earlier. And there is a moment in there where Omagon talks about the, like, lost primarks, but it's in the context of the most Alpha Legion nonsense you've ever heard. Because in that story, Omogon, while disguised as his brother Alfarious, why? What? Pure Alpha Legion.

That is really good. It's just like, good. While disguised as his brother, who looks exactly like him. Yeah. Yeah. What a convincing disguise. I there's also a lot of um it's a lot of sworn to secrecy stuff uh there is a little bit I mean I apologize for this is a slight spoiler in that case but there's a bit in false gods

as well that specifically is talking about like hey uh during the vision that Arabis gives Horace when he's like hurt yeah there is a little point where he stops before the uh tank of that says 11 on it and reflected upon the quote untapped glories that lay with him knowing they would never come to pass, which is an extremely unreliable narrator because he's currently having a chaos-filled vision. Yeah. But it's a thing to point out.

And then there's a lot of just other small statements where it's like in a book called Red Fury, the chapter master of the blood drinkers was like, there's no way a first founding chapter could ever end like this. And then Gabriel Seth is like, ah, it's happened before. You know, small little. Small little bits like that.

Okay. There's always small little bits. Yeah, there's little references kind of throw out a, like a surprising amount of the kind of background material for 40K and the Horace Heresy. There's a lot of little kind of details here and there. One of the things that, again, first Heretic, because it is the best book, when they're having the visions during the kind of transformation into the Galvovac, they flat out the word bearers who, become the Galvoreback flat out say that if they'd killed the 11th primark in the past it would save them a lot of trouble which oh that like the implication there is that the word bearers actually had some sort of like they actually had some sort of interaction in some way they were involved with

dealing with that prime mark whatever form like dealing with tuck but then again it could also be that like save them a lot of trouble, it could just refer to like the Great Crusade, it could refer to humanity, it could refer to the overall goal of the Imperium at the time, but it feels like quite a personal statement to make. Kind of, oh, if we just, if we just killed him in the tank, then we'd save ourselves a lot of hassle here, which again kind of speaks to like what even happened, what was bad enough

to cause that kind of infighting before the Horace even started, you know? It also wonders how much of it might be in fighting. So, like, Shai has a general timeline, right? We got the, all the primarks were created, and they were all yeaded, all 20 of them,

and then turned one of them turned into 21. Yeah. You know, they were found, like usual, joined the Great Crusade, fought in the Great Crusade, like usual. A couple decades later, something happened. They were forced to be killed. or in prison or whatever,

they're gone forever. All the primarks are sworn of secrecy and nobody else knows anything about them because they were mind wiped and most likely integrated into other legions. Which we can confirm a bit more because the Dark Imperium book, or 2021 second edition Dark Imperium,

there were two parts here that were rather interesting. Like, for one, Gilliman was talking to a priest and he was trying to annoy him because he was saying blasphemy. He was like, the emperor is not infallible, nor am I to kind of poke the priest.

But one of the things, the priest, he mentioned 20 instead of 18. And he's like, not 18. Nine holy primarks. Nine fallen devils. That's what the scriptures say.

And Gilman responds with, no, 20. Your church is ignorant of many things. As most people weren't aware that Horace and his followers had been loyal once. that his two failed siblings were not known of in the 21st millennium is hardly surprising. More information deliberately hidden, more myths. Which also makes a good point in saying that, like, yeah, the two that were expunged were not necessarily traitor.

They may not have been expunged because they turned on the emperor exactly. And that is added even more so because later on in that book, Call is talking, I'm experimenting on using the gene seed. Not only from the nine traitor legions for his primaries stuff, but also the second and 11th legion. Gilliman comes up and he's like, knock that shit off specifically. And then the call inferior is definitely not AI proxy machine. Says the warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their primarks were.

Chapters from your gene line have also fallen in the past millennium, Lord Regent, and we do not censor them. So that is a pretty hefty confirmation that this isn't like a gene seed problem. There isn't like a flesh change issue or something. Like it's the primarks specifically that were the problem. Right. And then all their people were reintegrated elsewhere. Yeah, it's always like, what the hell did they do? Well, that's one of the things that I think they've done well in kind of hiding in a way.

because if they were traitors in the same way that Horace was a traitor and, you know, the same way that like half the surviving Primarchs turn against the emperor, Gileman wouldn't be like, I'm going to be coy about it. He'd say that. Like, he fought to save the Imperium. Yeah, that's not something that you would like redact from the records, right? That you would want that out and open that, oh, yeah, we stopped the heresy before it could get started. Yeah, it would be a case of like, when I say taring them with the same brush, it would be an accurate case. of, well, they fell to chaos and so he had to kill them. But instead saying that they failed, like a failed state for Primax, what does that even look like? Did they, did they not, like, tow the line? Did they not appreciate the direction that the emperor was going with the Imperium? Did they have some sort of involvement with Zenos or something? Like, there's,

there's so many different things that failed implies that being a traitor, it's not the same thing. Yeah. Like to be completely redacted from all history is a big thing. Like that's, that's so much more than just, oh yeah, they swapped sides, right? Like, it's a lot. There's also a little excerpt in Angron, the Red Angel, a book that came out last year, so very recently. One of the, I believe, a gray knight, or, yeah, a gray knight's guy named Telemaim was basically, like, like, hey, I wish the Emperor had done the same for Angron in the Great Crusade, kind of like realizing how damage he was. Which, to be fair, I mean, the fact that the Emperor kept Angron around, like, that's the other thing. Angron completely damaged, incapable of, like, coherent, like, sensible thought,

just can't plan anything outside of charge at the thing, try and cut them up, that's his entire approach, and that's the approach that he spread to his entire legion. That is still valuable enough to save, but the other two primarks, whatever state they were in, or whatever they believed, was too far gone to be allowed to continue existing.

Like, that amount of difference is super interesting because it kind of implies that the emperor felt that, you know, Angron as a tool still had some use. But the other two prime arcs that were lost, whatever they did, yeah, they were so far beyond, like, being a useful tool that they just got removed. Shryd makes a good point, too, is that Angron and his Legion will kind of just sort themselves out.

You know, they will just, with their horrible tactics as world leaders, would just kind of die, die out eventually. Though I won't lie. World eaters definitely are one of those things. And it's kind of funny because people who play the tabletop think this too. They're not entirely just run at people and murder them. They have a weird gladiatorial combat tactics to them. So they're a bit more than the frothing maniacs that we know.

But also at the same time, a frothing maniac that's being juiced by the god of blood and death also can be quite powerful. I always remember the one story of like the something eight. There's these eight horrifying looking like berserkers or something. And they would go into a planet and just try to like rip the entire planet apart. And then if they got close to it or do pretty well, they would just be they just like drown in a sea of blood. And then that sea of blood would bubble up on a different planet and they would go again. So corn would just like, be like, all right, good job, boys. Next one.

Oh, yeah. I do remember you talking about that. That is super dope. So there is a lot of that there, obviously. But I got to be honest, I think I want to mention the one that's like the most shocking update, the last council one. Okay, okay. The last council is a small short story in December 2018. So it's pretty recent.

Relatively recent, sure. Pretty recent author of L.J. Goulding mainly wrote short stories, in fact, almost entirely short stories as well as a couple others. He also wrote Malkador First Lord of the Imperium, which is a book that Luton was specifically calling out. Curagoth, have you heard that audio drama at the First Lord of the Imperium? No, I've not got around to listening to that one yet. It's like 25 minutes long. It's super short. It also, if it's, it's a tough one because the, the lore drops in that audio drama are excessive and excessive. extensive and completely revitalize how I look at everything, which is why I'm a little bit

untrusting and whether or not they actually are to be taken seriously. You've sold it to me, though. Like 25 minutes of condensed, like, here's some like how you, like changing how you view the, the universe. That sounds pretty good. It's literally Malkador at like at the deathbed of his friend. Uh, and, and talking about the things they've done during the crusade. It's like right at the start of the heresy.

I feel like we should get into it a different day because there's some really thick drops if it's to be believed, which is a tough one. But regardless, in the last council, Horace, Alfarious, and Jagatai are trying to stop Alcador from destroying one of the lost Primark statues in the imperial palace because two of the statues were destroyed. Malcolm Orr claimed that they were no longer worthy of having a statue that bore his face or bore their face. Horace and them disagreed and said they should be remembered regardless for the glory they had earned the Imperium. And Malcador did not take that particularly kindly. And so Malcador, as we might remember, is like gigastrong and basically used his psychic powers to force Horace down to his knees. and the thing that is particularly weird here is this bit of text

so Horace was like you know like getting crushed to death or whatever by psychically choked or whatever sure and he very he very specifically says mal and it starts off where you think he says mal like malcador but then at the end he kind of says mal and it looks like he's to finish the word like Mal-Lal, Malol? It could be. Yeah.

Malol is an old fucking bit of kind of sort of recond 40K lore. The fifth chaos god, effectively. The fifth, yeah, the fifth chaos god that was, um, is it, is it lore in fantasy or not anymore as well? I think it's been gone for a long time from both, hasn't it? Yeah. Okay. If it's in fantasy, I haven't read about it. So it's deliberately made vague because if it's, because it could be the possibility of him basically saying like the name of the missing primark, like Malol or Mal whatever or like halfway through the name.

Or it could be stated that he's trying to just say Malkador and he's in a lot of pain. The thing is, is that directly after that, this is the rest of the excerpt says the sigillites face twisted. into a vengeful rictus. He felt the old familiar rage beginning to stir deep in his undying soul. And so he also burst one of Horace's blood vessels and

they crushed his windpipe. Yeah, Malchador's insane, dude. Yeah, I was going to say... So strong. I knew Malcador was strong, but to, like, have Horace completely, like, at his mercy and one

little step away from just crushing his head is kind of wild. Yeah, it's very, I mean, it's, it should, it shouldn't really not go unstated how enormously power. I think Malcador is second only to the emperor. And based on, um, that first lord of the Imperium story, uh, he might be stronger. Uh, and that's a whole other day. But yeah, that's the way that Malcador's, it said like he his face twisted into a vengeful

rictus. He felt the old familiar. rage beginning to stir makes me assume that he was trying to say one of the old primark's names because why else would he refer to the old familiar rage or you know maybe he just got angry but the fact i mean it was a very visceral reaction to stating that specific thing and just saying malcador wouldn't have that reaction let's maybe not unless it's still like just the rage from like being reminded of like the lost primarks or something but yeah it does it does kind of seem like a direct reaction from what horace said well that's the thing as well like old familiar rage

beginning to stir that kind of speaks of whatever the lost primark did that they were talking about is like so so horrendous so horrific to what malcador personally believes that it's It's causing him to act, not like, irrationally, but he is crushing Horace's windpipe. He's basically actively killing a primark because of how angry he is just at the mention of the name. And Horace doesn't even get the name out. Like, he doesn't fully get it out as far as we know. He just wants to say the name out loud. And that's enough to make Malcador, who, I think it's fair to say over the course of the Horacey book,

is, for the most part, a very considered and reasonable, if insanely powerful psycher. Like, he's not prone to just lashing out all over the place. Like, whatever they did has to have been so severe that he can't, borderline just cannot stand the idea of even hearing the name, which, like, how bad could it have been? and that's Horace. If you're going to give any Primark a little bit of leeway, it's your boy,

the favorite son of the emperor, Mr. Horace. Like, like, he doesn't even give him a little bit of slack on this topic. Yeah. Something that's, yeah,

like murdering a Primark or getting close to it out of pure rage from, you know, Malkador, who is not necessarily the most rage-induced person, he's pretty chill. Uh, for the, well, you're not chill, but, you know, he's, he's not, he's not anger on, right? Also, a little bit bizarre, right? Horace, Alferius and Jagatai. Those were the three. Yeah, that's barely, yeah, that's the odd company a little bit, isn't it? And this is clearly pre-heresy, obviously. So, like, you've got the emperor's favorite son, the possibly first ever found primark weirdo guy. And then Jagatai Khan? You know, like, if it was, like, if it was, like, if. If it was, it's kind of funny, if it was Lionel Johnson, like, the, like, the lion wouldn't give a shit.

He'd be like, whatever my dad says goes because, like, you know, like, fuck them kids. Whereas I don't know who else might be. Like, I mean, I guess maybe someone who isn't as loyal. And I guess Khan's not the worst call for that one. If it was like Dorn or the Russ, it probably would, he, they probably wouldn't agree. They'd be like, yeah, whatever Macador says. But, you know. Something that's like a nice little paris.

as well is that Horace was fully against the statue being torn down. And the two lost primarks get a mention from Gileman, who also has like a respect for the lost primarks in the Unremembered Empire book, which is again really good. There's a moment where Gilliman takes the lion into a large room that has a table with 21 chairs. So there's enough chairs for the primarcks, there's enough chairs, there's like a chair for the emperor,

and the idea is that the father and his sons would be able to sit around the table and deliberate over the course of the Imperium. Two of the chairs, instead of having the colours or banners of the legions, instead just had like grey undied cloth. And when he's questioned about it, He's like, they were still our brothers.

They still deserve a place. They should be remembered, even if they're not here. Which kind of speaks of, again, like a kind of respect for what they did before they got rid of. Yeah, so that's, I'm finding that's like the toughest part of like the second and 11th. It's because it's like, so far we've been like, oh yeah, they must have done something dreadful to get redacted from history. but like there's so many instances of the Primark's wanting to remember them regardless and it's like I don't

maybe they didn't do anything bad maybe they just kept failing and it's just like they just had like a history of failure and they were just so sick and tired of like oh my God they just keep failing just wipe them out or something like I don't know it's it's weird I also think it's somewhat interesting too

because they have the whole but like obviously there is that question of, you know, why. But if we go back a bit, we may remember good old Master of Mankind, right? And one of the most telling things of Master of Mankind is when they were fighting off the Chaos Space Marines in the Battle of the Webway. And all the custodians are like, wow, it's so easy. Killing Space Marines is like as natural as breathing, which was a very damning thing,

obviously because, you know, it's mentioned very often that like, not very often, but this is also a thing in the first Lord of the Imperium novel with Malkador is that he's very much like, hey, the emperor, you know, the Thunder Warriors were part one. The space marines are part two and then peace is part three and they're not going to stick around. Like, it's very clear. And so going from there, there is the part that we mentioned way back when with the Codex 9th edition Adeptus Custodies, which specifically says a being known as Subject 11 is stated to be held in the deepest vaults of the imperial palace. And that was a part of the shadow keepers because the shadow keepers hold everything down south. and the entire, you know, the entire point of that whole thing. GW would never in their life be like, eh, let's just do a random number generator for what subject should be down there.

11. Like, it's so clear that they chose 11 specifically to kind of poke us. Yeah, he's under there. Subject 11's under there. Yep. So I'm going to, like, this is very obviously still a little bit of unreliable narrator. because everything from the Imperium is. But the Codex 9th edition custodys says a being known as Subject 11 is stated to have been held in the deepest parts of the Imperial Palace.

And that alone is enough for me to be like, I fully believe one of the primarks is held in the deepest dungeons of the Imperial Palace. That one of them may not be dead, but instead might be captured. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. If there's a subject 11 mentioned, yeah, I would go along with you on that. Something that's worth thinking about as well is that those primarks and their legions, they don't get a huge amount of mention in terms of what they've done before the Horace heresy happened and before they were purged from record. But there is a significant conflict in the Great Crusade

which they were called out as being involved in. Now, how much of that is like kind of hearsay and deliberately obtuse is kind of, I guess, like up to interpretation? But there was a series of wars called the Rang Dan Zenicides where the 2nd and 11th legions were deployed alongside the solar auxiliar to fight an alien invasion that... cost the Imperium 80,000

Yeah, 80,000 Astati's and millions of Imperial Guard just to hold them back. Like, this was no joke. This was like Imperium threatening bad. It takes long drag on my cigarette. Another small battle won. I was going to say, the Imperium losing a million guard.

I'm like, wow, so that's just a drop in the bucket. Like, come on, man. That's like, one. weeks worth a tie there's something like I'm on 80,000 Astardis and the Greg Fusay is a big one though 80,000 starties is a big oof. That's a massive loss. Yeah, it was the third rang down Zenocide, which the second and 11th, there's no mention of them in that one. It's in the second Zenocide that they're referenced. In the third one, the Dark Angels lost 50,000 space marines. That's, that's so, That's what took them from being the most numerous legion

down to the second most numerous legion after the ultramarines. It takes drag up my even longer cigarette. Another ultramarine victory, baby. Yeah. That means that... Yeah. And it means that those legions actively took part in the Great Crusade. They weren't just like kind of hovering around

or not being specifically mentioned. there is a bit of a mention to them and it's part of a war that was absolutely horrific for the Imperium as it kind of spread out in the Great Crusade and interestingly it also mentions the war master but there's no mention of Horus at that time because it's kind of reckoned that it was before Horace was named

so it could be a title that was maybe passed around a little bit before it settled on Horace himself It's just weird with, oh, go ahead. I was just saying, GW and their numbers always make me laugh because I'll occasionally see some kind of like, oh, this was the most destructive, devastating Hive City War of all time. 20 million people lost their lives. Guardsmen lost their lives.

And I'm like, brother, the World War II, we had 60 million people died in World War II. It's, you got to change that shit to billions. Oh, yeah. We're not quite there yet. For their galactic scale, like you really got to pull. those numbers up a little bit because, yeah, it definitely seems like GW sometimes just doesn't quite understand the scale that they've set up. No. It's the same thing with Titans. It's like,

it was so tall, it dwarfed mountains, and then you look at the actual specs of it, and it's like, it was 100 meters. And it's like, no, no, it's bigger than that. Stop it. Yeah, then they'll say, like, oh, I forgot put the K in front of it. It was 100 kilometers tall or whatever the fact, you know? But no, it's the, so we talk about soul drinkers, right? Because we refer to that one as traitors in the heresy. So there's, that traitors in the heresy, sorry, I guess, well, they were traitors, but they, sorry, not traitors in the heresy, but the gene seed of the lost prime marks were given to the soul drinkers. Yeah, yeah. But their gene seed specifically was un, well, just not problematic, you know?

That's what Call said. Like, hey, there's gene seed's fine. You know, there's the Primark's issue. Which, to be fair, I'm kind of with him on that, because ever since the Horace heresy, the number of Space Marine chapters that have turned traitor is, it's pretty high. It's not like it was a one-off. It's fairly consistent, which kind of suggests it's nothing to do with where the gene seed comes from. It's more dependent on just how susceptible space.

base marines are to chaos corruption, which is, you know, kind of solved by the primaries showing up. But yeah, I'm with him on that. The gene seed doesn't really make that much of a difference, I don't think. Yeah. I don't know. Since talking about this, it's just like, God, what that, like, because there have been so many bad things that have happened in Warhammer that they do not redact from history. like the damn horace heresy

which is like the worst thing you can do turn on the emperor you go to chaos you take a bunch of his sons with you that seems like maybe the worst it seems like dad be something you want to redact from the history books forever and all time they still talk about it's not like they redacted that what the fuck did these guys do

yeah well it's it's bizarre right because it's also difficult like where are we talking in this thing you know because like you're talking about redacted right because there's redacted to the to the average imperial citizen, which is very different than what was redacted to like the Inquisition or Space Marines. This is like the Primarchs know and that's all. And that's it. And like, and probably the custodians, from being honest. Yeah. So it's, it's a really weird situation to be put yourself, to like put yourself into. And it's, I mean, if I'm being, okay, let's move into

like a meta, like a meta narrative situation here. Okay. It's very, Like very obviously, GW does not want you to know what it is. Yeah, clearly. Like, clearly. They very clearly don't want you to know what it is,

but what they did, but they want to be specifically vague in a lot of ways. I'm also in agreement with shy. I don't think we should ever know. I think the idea that like, the primarks are like, yeah, that shit was so bad.

I refused to even say it to like my closest. advisors. Malcador will kill me if I say it. Well, Malcador's dead, luckily, but... Oh, right, duh. Well, you know, honestly, if Maccador wasn't dead, it wouldn't surprise me either, but that's kind of like a taking you back on sanguineous level type thing, and I don't think we should do that. Luckily? Unluckily for Malcador.

Yeah, unluckily for Malcador, that's true. That's very true. Unluckily for me, I'm dead. Luckily for the Primarks, Maccador is dead. Therefore, they don't need to worry about that. But yeah, we should probably never, ever know. I think it's more enjoyable that way. It's more interesting. Yeah. And it adds a lot of extra intrigue to the entire deal.

But all that being aside, they are slowly unveiling the bits and pieces over time. I don't think this is necessarily a thing that's like, how do I say this? I would be fine if it was revealed, but if it was revealed in like a major story moment. the 12th edition of Warhammer is about literally about the 11th primark breaking free of stasis down down in in the in the place like there's a book from their perspective and everything and they still don't talk much about what happened but they're back I kind of want that now you said it I kind of want it that's either the new character or like maybe they're not chaos but they're maybe a bit renegade because holy crap and then that's like a way to flesh out renegade

Marines perhaps. Like I can see that being like the next major person, but they would have to do it like a lot of justice. We can't like have that as an excerpt in a codex. Like there needs to be like a trilogy for that shit, you know? Oh yeah. Like you got to do that justice. If you're bringing one of them back

like it has to be a big huge deal. You can't just like, oh yeah, we're just going to put this at the end of a book and just here's two paragraphs for you. Like yeah, you've got to set that up. It's got to be big. It's got to be really big. I've just realized something and this is a it's a tangent but related to the actual topic we haven't talked about the space walls

which is quite a significant thing to mention which is that the the kind of the idea is that the emperor kind of designed each legion for a specific purpose and each primark for a purpose

and that the space walls and Lehman Rus are the executioner of the Imperium and the space wolves are kind of designed to get rid of things that are inconvenient for the Imperium,

things that might be other space marines or other primarks. In Prospero Burns there's a whole thing about how each Legion has a purpose or a weird and that Space Wolves, they're all about being the

executioner. and they're talking about fighting the thousand sons, getting rid of that legion. And Lehman Rus is like, well, it's not the first time that we've been called to do this. Oh.

Which has a hefty implication. It does, but it also is implying just dealing with other space marines, which he did do against Angron during the Night of the Wolf. Oh, that's right. He does have that fight.

That's true. So there is a little mixture. There's like wiggle room there because he also fought against Lionel Johnson and the Dark Angels as well. So like in terms of in terms of like, oh, we're the executioners. We fought space marines. One of them did turn out to be traitor. The other one is loyalist and has remained so the entire time. So it's like, is he referring to fighting his brothers and their legions?

Or is he referring to fighting actual. on traitors who need to be expunged. It's kind of left up in the air. There's also a really important thing to note there too, which is like, uh, like Lehman Russ doing that is something that I would, I would see like Lehman would obviously do that.

He's loyal to ship. Yep. But if you're like the whole difference, right, is that, hey, they're the emperor's executioners. Like they want to make a scene for it. If I was the emperor and I was like, we're killing these two people and we, no one will ever know what's going on.

I'm sending Johnson. Like, Johnson's the guy for that. We want the emperor's exterminator. We don't want, we don't want the executioner. We don't want to make a scene because Lehman's about making a scene. Yeah.

Yeah. So I would send, I would send Lionel Johnson. I'd be like, all right, like, you are my guy for, you know, KGB level, like, secrecy. You know, you're the one I would take to take the sword with.

So I don't know. It's kind of like, I wouldn't have picked Russ. But Ross would do it still, so. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you'd probably expect the Dark Angels to do it, because they would be able to keep a secret, and that's kind of the whole point of the second and 11th is,

don't tell anyone. Yeah. I mean, we also, there's also like a Lorgar talking about how he's worried about being expunged and removed. Sanguineas had the same issue because of the Blood Angels and the Reds. thirst, which of course is a horrible mutation that means they just go absolutely, I believe the term is absolutely mental and just start eating people. And there's a whole conversation with Horace

about how like, oh, well, I didn't want to say anything because there might be a third empty plinth where once there was my statue, which coming from Sanguinius, who is already, let's be honest, a mutant because he has gigantic angel wings. Yeah. There's this constant undercurrent of, okay, but we really don't want to end up like the second and 11th. We don't want that. That's horrific. We must do everything we can to avoid that.

Which again is like, okay, being a mutant is fine, kind of, for one of them anyway. Yeah, if you're sanguineous, you get a little room. If you're the perfect boy, the perfect handsome boy. Then you can be mutant winged Jesus, sure. That's totally fine. If you turn traitor and fall to chaos, you will still be remembered, but as a cautionary tale. But if you're the second or 11th,

whatever you did is so bad, so awful to the emperor's plan, that no one may speak of you ever again. the existence of your legions will be wiped, not just from records, but from those legions themselves, as they're moved to other legions. Yeah. It's, I feel like, I kind of, I, sorry, go on. As we talk about it more, it almost feels like the second and 11th were like, like, maybe they did something bad.

I don't know how bad it is, we may never know. It almost feels like they were just made examples out of, right? Like, because, like, if even San Guineas is like, ooh, I don't want to end up like that. It's like, it's a firm little example to keep everybody in place. Like, like, because how do you keep Primark's in place? Make an example out of two of them. Well, it's a secret just for the primarks though, right? Yeah, yeah.

Because that's the only people the emperor wants to know. He's like, you guys need, I need to put the fear of me into you. And what I did to your two brothers, they are now expunged from all. Like, and even San Francisco. Gwynneus is worried about it. Well, there's also a bit of a false issue with that, though, is that that only works if you didn't need other primarks to kill them, you know, unless who killed the other primarks were not space marines, but in reality where maybe him sending the custodians, that's a little different. Also, there's not much about this at the moment, but I have, I just get this feeling that Valdor has something to do with this. I didn't see any real mentions of Valdo

talking about the missing two primarks But if anyone I feel like is also Going to be the one who knows everything about this It'll be Valdoor The dude is suss as fuck As the kids like to say I mean he is what wasn't he revealed as like the king in yellow Or whatever which was

Huge spoiler by the way But you know Oh sorry yeah no sorry The poor people currently Yeah we'll just have like a like a like a what is it, gang member doing like that sound effect there. So we don't spoil the entirety of like the Eisenhorn trilogy.

Sorry, I didn't even think about it. Can we have like a 20 second warning shot just on the screen in big red letters? Or just to edit over a sensor sound or something. The garbally noise. But yeah, no, no, it's it is part of that obviously. But there's a lot of questions and that's kind of half the point. But I don't know what they're going to do with it. My mind is they're not going to do anything.

So, yeah, I kind of, I feel like there's a good chance that it might be that they just leave it, leave it and keep kind of layering different bits of misinformation on top of each other so that there's no real clear idea as to anything to do with it. I mean, they kind of, there's already been a little bit of that anyway, which is in the, again, I, I, I hate to go back to the soul drinkers again because it feels like they took up an entire like half a month of my processing power of my brain. But in the novella for Denaethos, the dreadnought who had planned it all along, like when he talks about the fact that the space marines, I say the fact, what he says is the fact of space marines being created by ingesting the flesh. of Primarchs. Specifically, he talks about two Primarcs that were murdered

by the other 18, their bodies cut into countless pieces, and then those pieces were implanted into warriors to create the first space marines. Now, clearly, that's not true. Like, that's absolute

nonsense, because we know how space marines are made. But it's just like another layer of obfuscation. It's just, oh, this guy says something wild about the two lost primarks as well, and it just kind of stacks up. It is very, very funny, too, considering that, like, obviously this dude is corrupted by Zich, and he's totally unreliable. But he's him saying something like that, because, like, Zich, Zich isn't always a liar. He tells the truth a lot, but he tells the truth at inopportune times.

So it's always a big question. Also, Shai did make a good point where she posted him. Valdoor expressed his surprise when Malcador said that the primarchs were still alive and that the emperor was attempting to find them. Valador couldn't understand why the arch enemy had decided to spare them and believed that if they were alive,

then they would be corrupted. Instead, which, to raise armies of mortals to be led by his custodians. Based. Based, Valdo. Kind of based. Honestly, that would be the coolest army idea of like a couple

custodians leading like a bunch of guardsmen. that's just a really neat concept. Yeah, that's awesome. Like solar auxilia kind of folks. I don't know. That's like, Valador is a, is a scary man.

He's not necessarily what I would call the most, I don't know if I say reliable, definitely not that, but he reminds me a lot of like the lion where he's just like, yep, I'm on team emperor and I will, like whatever.

Also, I can, one of you won a primark because I'm that based so bad yeah Gary both in narrative and in attempting to paint the model have you seen that model oh dear god I don't think I've seen Valdoors model oh dude it's so

good but I'm never painting one of those it's that's crazy like for for like you guys this because you guys are like pretty good painters you know I am still a fleshling nobody but like let me see this

is there's so much okay all right there's what going on right yeah it's so much texture and like there's the armor and the cloth and then the fur and he's got feathers

and like hell no absolutely not it's very cool though but yeah you know what I get it I get why you'd be like nope not painting that nope nope nope nope nope yet dope mini though

yeah don't very dope mini definitely not something I want to go do myself We also don't know where the hell Valador is right now so he's around I'm sure but I don't know where

Oh man So anyway I don't I don't think there's a whole lot else left on the primarks Particularly at the moment I think my main question Kind of at the end of this is Firstly, Bricky

What do you think They did? Like what would be bad enough To not be classed as a traitor to chaos, like to the Imperium in service of chaos, but be bad enough for the Emperor to get rid of them. I was about to ask both of you that exact question. I'm glad you did it. So I've got two possible ideas. Idea one is that it was some kind of like mass insubordination, you know, some kind of just like horrid level of the emperor realizing that this is not.

There's no way this is going to work. These people are, like, they do not share my ideals. Because even Lorgar was very much worried. He was like, oh, you know, they, like the faith thing. Like, he really doesn't like that. I might turn it into them. Like some kind of just complete misunderstanding of what the emperor is supposed to be. Secondly, and this is the one that I consider a bit more grim dark.

And I kind of like it as an idea because I think it's very, it's very, it's very, like meta narrative and a little bit fun for the emperor's side of things. I kind of think that they could have been just a test. Like how good is the Imperium, Malcador, specifically in the emperor at killing an entire space marine primark and a portion of his legion when the time comes. Like when the time comes and you need to kill them. can I can I do what I did to the Thunder Warriors easily and can I also make sure nobody knows nobody knows about it and he succeeded and so he's so grim dark it really is I love that though

it's so Malcador though it's so Malcador it's so the emperor they're such terrible people that I could see that like that was the test I do kind of love the idea of like oh they're not that great anyway and like I need to test out like just how good are the custodians killing space Marines can is this Thunder Warrior part two thing of possible ah ooh that that's are my new Thunder Warriors too strong right let's find out and so he picked like the weakest ones just to like or the strongest ones what we could even say yeah could be maybe the second or the best and he was like this is the perfect thing to test my new toys again. Yep.

Either way, it works really well. Also a good test of like just loyalty for the other primarks. Will, can I get my other sons to destroy these two and then never talk about them again? Like how strong are my sons

in isolation? How strong are they together? And are they prepared to commit what would be a horrendous crime on the conscience and just deal with it and carry on and still take my orders without ever questioning it. And that makes sense as to why they would constantly want to be like, hey, they still deserve a

place at the table. No, don't destroy their statue because we didn't want to do it. We had exactly. And obviously you would want to redact that completely. You don't want anybody knowing that that's what you did. That makes sense. It's a test of two things. A test of might, but also a test of their secret police, right? Like a test of secrecy. Yes. Shai does make a good point that a lot of the space marines were integrated into other legions.

So that does poke a bit of a hole in that theory. Oh, that's true. But it could be that, you know, you can always say that like, well, that's, you know, just the thing he had to do. Because if he killed all of the space marines in that legion, that would make the other primarks a lot more suss. they'd be a lot more like ooh well look

the you know the emperor killed us all and it's often talked about how the emperor has a little bit of mental like oh uh you know like I knew Horace was going to betray me the whole time but I didn't expect chaos to get involved or something like that like some kind of

precognition so maybe that was his way of like oh if I killed all the legions legionaires as well then 15 of them would have turned on me because they were already worried about it or something. I'm going into a little bit of semantics right now, but that's my other theory is the test theory,

and I think it's a pretty fucked up one, and I like it. It is. That is a perfectly 40K fucked up reason, though. I like that. I don't have anything that would top that, so Karioth, if you got anything, feel free. Well, there's a couple of things. There's one thing that we didn't, like, properly touch on,

which, funnily enough, oh, my God, I'm so, look, I don't want to keep referencing one episode we did, which is soul drinkers again. Soul drinkers. Put the card up there. Should I put the card up there every time he says it? Every time, every single time, it's got to be up there. The chamber at the end of memory, which we talked about being like the loss of the primarks, the legions being absorbed into ultramarines, imperial faces, etc., etc.

There is a moment within that short story where Rogaldorn is allowed to remember the two lost primarks and he says what came to pass could overshadow everything the raw hateful truth is clear to me if they were here with us now

this war would already have been lost which is quite a big statement basically if those two were still alive or still like available still leading their legions then the Imperium would be over the traitors would have overrun everything which again is very unreliable narrator

because it's Malkador having altered memories he's messed around with minds also Dorn is remembering something that he previously was forced to forget and is now remembering them again so those memories could be totally false because Malkador could just be like well I don't want you thinking

that we made the wrong choice here so here you go your two brothers were existing threats enjoy. Like, it's very deliberately, like, obtuse, but... Existential threats, because if they were still around, that means we would have failed

in our ability to secret police them, and then they would definitely turn traitor. Oh, yeah. They would definitely start the hands on. A little sooner. I'm changing history to serve my new theory. Let's go. I'm okay with that.

It's a good theory. I feel free to continue to change history to make it fit, because I like it. I like it. I can't, I can't, I just imagine the, the, the possibility. You get like a, a new, like, prequel to the end of the death or something going on like that. And it's just, Malcador talking about it. And the answer is when someone asks why. And he just, just said that it's like, we wanted to know if we could. And that's the entire, that's the entire and they'd never talk about it again. Like, it's just, it's such a Malkador thing. He's such a shitter. Yeah, it really is. I have to admit, I don't think, I don't think it. I don't think it tops the test theory, but a little part of me is like, Angron and Jagaiti, I can never pronounce his name. Jagatai. Jagatai.

They both had a bit of an issue with the emperor in terms of like the power structure and the idea of just being, you know, a high rider or just being high-born and it's just another form of tyranny. The second and 11th being brought up in human societies that, that's embraced cooperation with Xenos, and we're trying to kind of say, hey, you know what, we keep kind of, you know, we're expanding out across the galaxy

and murdering anything that doesn't look like us. I don't know if that's the best way to go about this. In fact, I think maybe cooperation is, friendship is magic, and we're killing the magic. Maybe we should do something that isn't flat-out murder against anyone that isn't a human or a space marine. Maybe we shouldn't do that, and they're reaching a point where it's a case of,

okay, you've been too lenient too many times, you either kill everything, or you die, and they go, if the foundation of the Imperium is the blood of a thousand sentient, otherwise not that kind of dangerous, dangerous xenos species. I don't want to be involved in that.

And then they get wiped out because of it. Because they dare to think about anything other than just humanity. That's, that would be, yeah. It's plausible. That kind of reminds me of the first one before the, if we could thing, which is like they didn't share the emperor's ideals, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like a fundamental difference in upbringing or in like philosophical, ethical outlook where it's just

like maybe we don't need to murder literally everybody we find. Maybe we could actually, you know, have some sort of, some sort of empire that revolves around treating people how they should be treated rather than, well, you've got a point of years, so you definitely need to see the sharp end of a power sword. That's just how it is, you know? Oh, you got point of years. Let me show you my point.

Yeah, it's prim marks that are fully, willing to have like coexistence with the Zenos rather than just full out and out human xenophobia, right? Which is interesting when you think about how Horace kind of fell and how he had a whole negotiation with the Kynbrecht and how that ended up being the catalyst for the Horace heresy. It's like there was there was a whole bunch of people that were not baseline human and instead of going kill them all, he was like, surely they're.

something else that we can do as we expand that isn't just outright murder. Maybe the other two were a lot more like a lot more kind of set in that mindset and just the emperor wasn't having it. So it was a case of making an example whilst also removing roadblocks to human supremacy basically. We'd like to read Shise 1D cases.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, no, listen, my, my, yeah, let's, I'll reach eyes. My idea is something went really wrong with them. Possibly, they fought a war against really horrifying Zenos race, maybe even the old ones remnants, Primarks, and some numbers of their sons got influenced by this Lovecraftian corruption, and they got beyond twisted in mind and body, turning on everyone. Loyalists had to fight not only their brothers,

but their brothers melded with Eldridge horrors far worse than anything chaos can create and after eventual victory everyone got mine wiped consensually so they don't have to suffer PTSD from knowledge of horrors beyond human comprehension I like that one I like it Shai's going with the love craft

yeah I was gonna say oh my god I don't want to think about having to kill my brother but I had to because you know they were twisted and they were beyond saving and they didn't even know who they were themselves. And please, please, Daddy Emperor,

wipe my mind. I cannot deal with the horror of what they became. That's not a bad idea either. I love me some cosmic horror and that that tickles all the right bits of my brain. I like it. That's not bad. Good ideas all around. This has been a fun episode actually.

Just kind of like trying to figure out like what's going on with the two lost legions. And also as predicted Bricky, it was not short. Yeah, my bad It's okay It's a pseudo-kirioth episode These aren't supposed to be short I feel like I'm developing a bad reputation

All I have to do is be here now I'm not even leading it I'm just waiting for our fans Like our fucking awesome ass like blue collar fans Or like active service people Who are just like yes Over an hour again That's 30 more minutes of my day or whatever

that I can mess around and I'm trying to listen to. Yeah, like the truckers that are going coast to coast. Yeah, or like my truck drive. It's another longer episode. It saves more time, whatever. Like, you know, I work here like, ah, another one over an hour. Yeah, and there's probably people that are like, hey, can you, can you do like a two hour one, dude? Like, that'd really help out the drive.

Oh, challenge accepted. Let's go. End of the month? No, no, don't you? Carry out this setting up one hell of a next episode. Hell yeah Oh god That was my voice

Oh no The frog The frogs The frog got it You can tell it's a long one Voices are just giving out all over the shop Voices are getting a Beasts all over the shop

Well that's I mean yeah I guess that's about it from us This is about where we're at Will we assume what we have The knowledge that we know And Yeah

This is pretty solid That's excitement This is solid. That is excitement. We hope it's excitement for you. It's excitement for me because it's cool the theory craft these types of things. They're weird. They're different, but they're a lot of fun.

Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and make like the second 11th prime marks. And...