Adeptus Ridiculous - The Proxy War Between Heaven and Hell | Trench Crusade Lore

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

https://www.patreon.com/AdeptusRidiculoushttps://www.adeptusridiculous.com/https://twitter.com/AdRidiculoushttps://shop.orchideight.com/collections/adeptus-ridiculousIn the endless war of Trench Crusade, humanity suffers and dies while the forces of Heaven and Hell loom. But why don't powerful angels and true demons take to the field themselves? This episode explores the nature of the conflict as a divine proxy war, with humanity trapped in the middle.​We dive into the "Covenant of Hell," an ancient pact that prevents full-blooded demons from walking the earth, and the terrifying, reality-shattering reasons why Heaven can't just send in its angelic legions. Learn how Hell wages war indirectly with half-demon abominations and twisted constructs, and how humanity has been forced to create its own holy warriors—from cloned messiahs to giant Paladins—in a desperate attempt to survive. Join us as we discuss humanity's tragic role as the frontline soldiers in a cosmic cold war fought between two superpowers who refuse to get their own hands dirty.Support the show

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Adeptus Ridiculous podcast. My name is D.K. Diamanties. His name is Kiryoth. And where's Bricky, you ask? We're not really sure. But that's okay because Kiriath is here. It's lovely. And before we get into all that, if you enjoy today's episode of the podcast and maybe you want to support us monetarily,

have it over to patreon.com slash Adeptus Ridiculous, where you can get access to the Discord, bloopers if they happen. $15. get you access to all of our posters in crispy, digital, wonderful form. You should check it out. They're great. Patreon.com slash adeptus ridiculous. And, well, I guess I kind of have to shield the merch now.

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It's wonderful. I love it. You'll love it. Ah, Karioth, how are you doing today? Because the... Do you need rescuing? Yeah, a little bit. Because actually, we have something else to chill a little bit today, don't we, Kiriath? We do, we do. I'll tell you what, let's, uh, let's, let's do the, let's do the thing where you've got a, you've got a wait to find out. Oh, okay. What we can do, what we can do, you listen to this episode. If you really enjoy this episode, which you will, because it's going to be great, then maybe there'll be something a little bit extra for you if it's your sort of thing. And if it isn't, you should try to get anyway, because you know,

you never know. You might suddenly discover something about yourself and go, yes, I'm 100% in. Spicy. Self-discovery episode, let's go. Can you imagine how long that would be? It would be atrocious, the length of a self-discovery episode. Yeah, self-discovery in the world of 40K? Oh boy, we're in front. a long trip. Oh, well, hang on. What makes you think that it's going to be Warhammer 40K? Oh, well, I guess that's true. That's true. That's true. We've done hell divers. We've done trench crusade. We've done fantasy. That's true. There's no guarantee that this is going to be

about 40K. I will give you something of a hint and tell you that there is absolutely the opposite of a guarantee that it will be 40K this week because I don't want you to spend too long on the quote because it's not fair because I've already done that once. Because it's not fair to the viewers to waste their time like that. Fair enough. I was just thinking of the time where I just didn't tell you anything about what it was except for the quote, which felt a bit mean in retrospect. I was like, really, that could have applied to a lot of stuff and I gave you no help.

So I'm going to give you a quote. I think you'll probably get onto this pretty quick, but you'll see. The infernal powers are well aware of the council, and through the corrupted saintly relics they hold, the great lords of hell aroused when the council is in session, and set forth to challenge their hated opponents with their unholy willpower. On such occasions, a fierce spiritual battle then takes place, and the skies above Rome, big hint,

burn with hellfire and flashes of holy, light. I mean, honestly, the, the Rome part probably, I mean, everything else before that was a pretty big giveaway that, man, it's a trench crusade episode today, right? But the Rome was the, like, the cherry on top. I mean, yeah. I would assume it's like the, oh, shoot, what is it? It's the, it's the one we haven't done. What's the, I don't remember there, are they literally just called the, the, council of seven or something. Because they have like really cool minis and stuff and I can't remember what they're called. The court of the seven-headed serpent.

That's the one. It's, to be fair, we are going to mention them. We are going to talk about them. But this is a bit more of a speculative episode because we're going to be doing some speculation on the nature of the war between hell and earth in. trench crusade. So we're going to talk about the nature of hell's invasion, the assistance that is granted to humanity by heaven, the nature of something called the covenant of hell, and what the potential end game ideals are for both the demonic lords below and the Lord God himself, since fairly important in this universe. Yeah, and especially because

like neither neither heaven or hell wants to get like directly involved because if if demons are like oh yeah we're going to send a general of Satan now then it's like god's like okay well here's an angel that will nuke your stuff and oh by the way god could just erase existence so it it oh yeah yeah yeah so the way they manipulate humanity to sort of fight the war for them without directly getting involved is is interesting it reminds me of um Oh God, this is such a big boss baby thing Whenever we do Covenant Or not Covenant

Whenever we do Trench Crusade It always reminds me of Constantine And how there's like a war between heaven and hell But neither side gets directly involved They just see which one can like How many humans can we corrupt in hell And how many people can we make sure

Have faith in God in heaven And they kind of have this like war Where they never really directly get involved But it's always happening and Yeah. Yep. That's actually kind of reminding me. There was something that I was going to put in this script,

but then I didn't want it to go like super, super long because there's a thousand interesting references you can throw in. But it also made me think a little bit about good omens. Oh, yeah. Like both the book and the Netflix show, because there's multiple points, especially in the Netflix show, where, you know, an angel and a demon become friends

because they spend all their time on Earth, effectively countering each other's work. one is trying to save people, the other is trying to make them condemn themselves, and there's like at least one point specifically where Crowley is like, I mean, if you're here trying to make people do good and I'm here trying to make people do bad, we could just both go home and say that we did our job. And that is very, that feels very appropriate to this sort of, like this sort of conversation and this constant struggle from one side to the other.

They're best for enemies. Oh, they're the best. I love them. So we've talked about Transcruset a fair bit at this point, and throughout all of our episodes and the research that goes into them, one thing is very clear. Humanity is not having a good time. Even understatement of the decade. Loudly, yeah. Even the humans that have some involvement with hell are mostly not having a good time,

with only the most horrible of wrongans really getting anything out of the arrangement. Granted, those of the Christian persuasion can find a little respite here and there, but thousands are summoned to the front lines via visions and voices every single day. So even the ones who are relatively safe are still not really safe because they could wake up one morning, full of zeal, wanting to go to the front lines and drown a heretic in mud. It could be argued that the Iron Sultanate have a good number of people with something close to a peaceful life, but the fact is that staying out of this colossal conflict between literal demons and humanity is simply not an option.

So even behind the indestructible wall of the Sultanate, men and women are called on to leave their homes and venture out into no man's land, where a bloody death is pretty high on the list of possibilities at any given moment. So sometimes you just don't have a choice. Sometimes you just wake up and it's just like, yep, the father filled me with the holy zeal and I am going to the forefront and I'm fighting heretics to my pretty guaranteed death. And they just have no say in it. It's just like, oh, yeah, man, I'm filled with the holy zeal. And even if they were like, wow, that seems dangerous.

I don't want to do it. they kind of just have to, like, no choice? The trench pilgrims are like, they are essentially a disorganized fight and force in that they just wake up one morning and go, right, I have to fight for God, let's go. That's it. They get visions, they get voices, they feel a sense of like prophecy, and they know that they must travel to the front line and go for it. So you could be like right in the middle of a very peaceful area that isn't.

isn't really heavily affected by the war and still just wake up and be like, well, it's my time to go murdering. Let's go. And that's it. You just have to. It's been a while since we did the Trench Pilgrims episode. But I thought they were the ones that were like, oh, yeah, I need salvation. Because I've maybe done wrong or I was found to have done something wrong.

I have been found to have blasphemed. and they sort of just give you some ramshamble stuff and off you go. I guess I didn't realize or I forgot that God could just be like, no, you're doing this, go fight and die, and you have just no say in the matter. There's a whole lot of personal interpretation, it feels like. Like someone could have led an amazing good life, but if there's one thing they feel guilty about,

and if that guilt is strong enough, then what do you do in this world? You go and fight heretics. you go and try and stop the invasion of your world and stop hell from trying to take your people. I feel like there's a lot of kind of, it might not even be necessarily a sin, but it's the guilt thing that probably causes the biggest issue. So in a way, you're guessing, like, the most good of people, because those are the people who really think about that stuff, who are diving towards the front line with their granddad's musket,

and just going, I'm in. Well, yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. So ever since the Templars performed the act of ultimate heresy in Jerusalem and brought hell to earth, humanity as a whole has suffered indescribable torture and death, somehow managing to not only cling to existence, but also hold out against the supernatural forces leveled against them. And it's an impressive feat, but it, I mean, is it more or less impressive? when you consider the idea that God and the forces of heaven are on their side, giving them assistance where needed.

Does that make it more or less remarkable? Because they're fighting for their own survival, but we know how much of an influence the church has over a good proportion of the people in this setting. And the church are calling not just for the defence of the world, but to take up arms in the name of the Lord, which puts a slightly different complexion on things. I mean, when you see what they're fighting against, though, I'm just like, oh, yeah, that is pretty impressive. You know, that's, you know, to be willing to fight that. I chalk that up to impressive. It is, but how much of it is zealotry and how much of it is actually, like, the call for survival is one of the things that's interesting.

So when you, like, add to all of this, the fact that full-blown demons seemingly cannot set foot into the world, with the vast majority of hell's forces being humans who've been given a few gifts, be it weapons or some sort of horrific blessing, constructs created in hell and then spewed out to fulfil a specific purpose, or other more like esoteric beings that contain a sliver of demonic or angelic power much reduced and weakened. the way in which humanity has been forced to fight

ends up feeling very strange when you properly look into it. I mean, you could say that angels and demons do walk the earth in some form. So there's not much information about either of them showing up in Trench Crusade, like in person, but there are little fragments of divinity that kind of float around in various forms. Sorcerers of the court of the seven-headed serpent, for example, are formed from a tiny sliver of a fallen angel, one that's shattered after being cast out of heaven. The remnants aren't dead, they aren't alive, they're trapped in the exact moment that their original divine life ended. As a result, their angelic gifts are gone, but they still have the potential for channeling vast amounts of power, making them excellent conduits for magic.

And there's another unit as well, the pit locusts. They've got a couple of different origin theories, one being that they are remnants of angels that debase themselves at altars to Bal or Moloch, another example potentially of something truly divine roaming the earth, but as a minute fraction of what it once was. Oh. So there's just a fallen angel out there that somehow it fell. It is perpetually living the moment of its death, but it is also, like, shards of it are powering, like, hellbound sorcerers that are seeking to destroy everything that it once tried to defend.

It shattered. Like, when it was kicked out of heaven, it just exploded into, I mean, potentially millions upon millions of tiny shards. But it's not ever really died. It's also not really alive. And the sorcerers are, like, four. formed around it. Gotcha. I, for some reason in my head, when I heard fallen angel, I thought you meant an angel had been killed by like,

I don't know, some crazy demon. I didn't realize it was like an angel that had just been like, yeah, God kicked it out of heaven because it was actually. Yeah, it's, it's the,

it's the proper, like, biblical version of fallen where it's a case of you have been fully booted out of heaven. Like Lucifer, right? Yes. Yeah.

Got you. Okay, I thought maybe like a demon had killed it. And then it just burst into shards. And I was like, great, it has to perpetually live through that. Wonderful. It was just trying to do the right thing. But that's, okay, gotcha. The bit.

Wow, that's such sick. Oh, my God. It does. It even has the crown. Oh, man. Also, the wings are similar to the wings from the, oh, what's it called? The seraph from the path of the beast? Or is it the, the, the, the, the,

court of metamorphosis. I forget which one, but there's, like, those wings show up on multiple bits of artwork to do with angels, which is super cool. Yeah. God, the artwork and the image are in Trench Crusades, top notch. It's so good. So, like, we've got the pit locust there and the sorcerers as kind of examples of a bit of divinity that has been, like, forced into something else. it's not just angels who get the reduced to a shadow of their former selves treatment though two of the most that's the sorcerer absolutely Jesus

not what I was expecting no Jesus is not it well I guess Jesus gun is involved this is trench crusade so yeah Jesus that's crazy though that's like some baffirmet looking shit it's great I love that he uses a stone tablet very very 10 commandments Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very, yep, yep, yep. Are his intestines a snake? It does look like it. It's something I've never noticed before, but now you've pointed it out, and yeah, I think the intestines are a snake. Wow, religious imagery in my trench crusade, never.

Who could imagine? His heart is a screaming face. Isn't it? Oh, my God, it is. It's someone's skull. I didn't think it was screaming I was just like yeah that's just the top portion of someone's skull it might be screaming

but without that lower jaw part you just can't tell he definitely could be screaming I guess I guess it probably is let's be honest it's Trent's Crusade you know what Shai you're you're so right he is 100% screaming oh god I can't see the sensitive content

what has happened man Shai just zoomed in on the The skull. Hey, again, without that jaw part, you can't tell if it's screaming or not. I know we've already made one boss baby reference, but anytime I see a school where it shouldn't be, I just think of the bear from annihilation, which is some of the best imagery. But like, whoever came up with that, it is.

Whoever came up with the bear that screams help me as it tries to, you know, murder people, they need Jesus. Like on theme, they need Jesus. That's something that, uh, that's, that's a real thing, right? That's a real thing with some animals where they will be able to mimic the sound of like, right? I think that's a thing anyway. Or I might just be too anime-pilled because that was a, that was a thing in Hunter, Hunter. No, there's birds that can mimic sounds almost like 100% accurately, but that bear,

had that woman's skull implanted in its own face, which is way... Especially when it's like a perfect copy to and it's like, oh, God, that's... I love it. But at the same time, God, what is wrong with you? Yeah, great movie, though. I watch it at least once a year. I genuinely do. It's so good.

So, yeah, it's not just the angels who get the, like, reduced to a shadow of their former self's treatment. Two of the most demonic looking things in the court of the seven-headed serpent are the yoke fiends and the praetor. Two creatures which you'd look at and unequivocally say, yep, that is definitely a demon. And you'd be half right. So the yoke fiends are the offspring of devils, but because this is hell and this is trench crusade, it's not that easy. They're actually the stillbirths of cursed devils, a thousand generations of them getting increasingly. Feeble and they are crossbred with beasts of the field. So you've basically got dead on arrival devil children crossed with cows.

That's what that guy is. Oh, I see. Uh-huh. Oh, wow. Absolutely horrible backstory for them. Awful. They are really stupid. Like really stupid.

They hate everything, which, Of course you would, because, you know, they are what they are, and they can only perform simple tasks. And to top it all off, there's a little shard of divinity in their heart, which reminds them that they are the progeny of fallen angels, which it definitely does not help with the whole filled with hatred for creation thing. Oh, man, that's a rough life to live. That's, that's, it's so harsh. Oh, man. You know, that's, that's one of those moments. where you're just like, oh man, I'm so tired on Monday morning.

My life is awful. It's like, you could be this thing. Yep. It's not so bad. Your small meager problems, you could be a stillbirth crossed with a, with a divinity angel thing. With a cow. You could just be a, a D-O-A devil crossed with a cow, and that's what you are. You've got a little shard of divinity to remind you that life is indeed.

as awful as you think it is. Yep. Listen, if ever there was a time for white text, can we do the classic, looks like somebody's got a case of the Mondays for these guys? Young fiends, having a perpetual Monday. Case of the Mondays, yeah. Jeez.

Anyway, go on. So the main thing behind all of that, though, they're not full demons, not even close. They are as diluted as it gets, despite looking pretty damn demonic, I think it's fair to say. The other one that you might look at and assume is a full demon is the prey tour, which is an insane bit of art and an insane miniature. I mean, people who see these things on the battlefield believe they've seen the devil,

which is totally fair. Look at it. How do you not think that's the devil? Like, oh my God. It's just, wow, that's, that's a, that's, that's, yeah. I mean, every time, so I've probably seen this artwork, I don't know, five, six, seven, maybe ten times. Every time I see it, it still gets the same like, oh, I don't know, reaction out of me. It's visceral, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, it's just like, oh, no. Every time. this thing so many times and it still shocks me every time. It's so good. And, you know, you would see this and you go, well, yeah, that is clearly the devil. So you would assume, surely, full on demon, right? 100%. No.

Of course not. Not a full demon. This is the thing. They're hell of sneaky. So the pretoes are once again half beast, but they are more towards the jackal or hyena side of things, with the other half of them being full-blooded devil. So we're getting closer than ever to getting a proper demon on the field, which is very much the point, because the preators, they're not full devil, they have some of the blood of the natural

order in them, so they are capable of sneaking into the mortal realm without breaking the aforementioned covenant of hell. Oh, wow, they are sneaky. Also, jackal, really? Yeah, I think it's the weird sort of backward legs and the altogether too many teeth When it comes to the hyena slash jackal reference, it's just there's a lot of spiky teeth going on there It's weird because that has hooves too I'm assuming that's the demon part I'm just putting all the teeth down to the jackal That's all I've got

Because the sort of sideways ones do have a sort of animalistic hyena dog-like quality to them. I guess even the wing mouths, like the way the tongues are and the rated teeth are, do have sort of like a jackal, feral dog-like, I guess.

I love the description. Even the wing mouths have got a sort of jack. Well, what else are you going to call them, man? You're not wrong. No, you're not wrong. I'm not going after you. It's a totally fair description. but why does it exist as a thing that needs to be described?

The wing mouths and the wing hands too. Oh, yeah, it's pretty... Horrible. But it's interesting because these two soldiers, demons, half demons, not fully demons, are sort of kind of products of just like, oh yeah, we got a little piece of divinity, and now we're going to use it against you.

And it's like, hooray, you shot yourself in the foot, humanity. Hooray. Or not humanity, but you shot yourself in the foot, heaven. Yay. Dead, horrific. I love him. I absolutely love him. Shy, what is that?

That's just a regular one. Which I guess, I guess, I guess I can see. Actually, you can kind of see it. Yeah, once shy posted a picture of the jack-lats like, well, Jackals are way cuter than I thought they were. I don't know what I thought a jackal was, but it wasn't basically a fox with an angry expression. I mean, that's basically all that is.

I'm going to get told off for that. Okay, let's... Carriot said it, not me. I didn't say anything. Oh, I mean, between that and saying that possums aren't a marsupial, it's just game over for me. Oh, yeah. You're so good.

The question is, what does the covenant of hell do? We're not really sure. It's not very clear, but we do know that it binds each rebel seraphim and it prevents full-blood demons or fallen angels from walking the earth. For me, though, the biggest question is,

why would hell abide by this agreement in the first place? So the most popular theory for this is that a full-blooded demon going for a nice walk around the trenches would be an open invitation for hostility, between heaven and hell to resume with absolutely no care for what happens to the rest of creation. So I'm going to give you something to read, which is stated in Revelations chapter 12 versus 7 to 12. There you go. Okay.

And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not. neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out. The serpent of old called the devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world. He was cast out onto the earth and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now have come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of His Christ,

for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and for the sea, for the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Beautifully done.

The key part there is right at the end, which is he knoweth that he hath but a short time. That was the King James like 2000 something translation by the way. Look, I got the verses and then I was like, that's fine. It's pretty much the same gist across all of them. It's just, it's a pain to read.

Just in case anyone was like, yeah, but which version was it? It was King James something or other, whatever. Satan and his fallen angels aren't necessarily here for a long time, but when it comes to the dismantling of God, work and the tormenting of mankind, they are definitely here for a good time. Hell has goals when it comes to the invasion of earth. The various lords want slaves and they want suffering, not least to

fuel their goetic magic, which in turn gives them power in the court. The infighting, betrayal, constant jockey and composition, it's built into them, but they know what they want, and they want power and influence. No matter how powerful they want to be, Jumping the gun and stepping out of that horrible hell portal could be the thing that kicks off the final conflict, which if we're going by the same book, would be bad for hell as a whole. And I have another thing for you to read, which is from Revelations 20. Oh, man, we are just read the scriptures today, boys. Oh, yeah.

Let's see. Where does that one start? Okay. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations to the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went out over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city,

and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. and the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever and i saw a great white throne and him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them and i saw the dead small and great standing before god and the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works. Now, if that's how things are guaranteed to go down, you can understand why hell might not want to push their look. Because according to revelations, they lose. Yeah, they, that's the understatement. Yeah, they do indeed lose.

I kind of just assumed that they didn't want to, you know, start shit because they didn't want angels, you know, and God ceasing existence. But yeah, this also works as like, oh, well, it's written that we're guaranteed to lose. So, you know. I won't say, by the way, before we move on, when it came to us deciding what this episode was going to be, I said to Shai, oh, there'll be a bunch of stuff we can get from Revelations for this, forgetting that I, absolutely hate reading revelations and I immediately crashed out and I filled my chat with possum just full of vitriol and annoyance and all he really gave me was was just LMAO. I like the guy who wrote revelations it's John of Patmos is who it's believed to be and I've

decided that John of Patmos is to me what Phil Kelly is to Possum. And to be fair, I don't know if Phil Kelly has written the same quantity of tedious bollocks as John of Patmos allegedly did. So I don't want to cast unnecessary shade on him. But I got like 10 minutes into researching this bit and I was like, I hate this. I hate it. It's so annoying. It's really just tedious. and there was seven angels with seven wings and four eyes and eight bowls containing nine plagues.

And I'd shut up. Shut up. Stop. Shut up. Shut up. I hate it. It's so irritating. It's just garbage.

I'm like, I'm not here to offend anyone who believes I was raised. extremely, extremely religious. Anglican Catholic, to be precise. But even when, even when I was going to church literally three to four times a week, I still hated revelations back then and nothing's changed. That is maintained. Anyway, so there's great potential then for things to go badly wrong for hell, should they play this whole war against humanity thing wrong?

It's already been well established in the Bible that God is not against a bit of mass death to get his point across, as demonstrated, to be fair, by the flooding of the earth and getting Noah to get two of every animal. It's a real shaming about the unicorns escape, but there we go. The ten plagues of Egypt, particularly horrifying, by the way, if you're going with that one translation that says it was like a plague of frog as opposed to the plural. I love that. I love the image. God was more than willing to to get his point across in a very bloody way. Yeah, with one massive frog. Just the one. Just a giant biblically accurate frog. Okay.

I would love fan art of a biblically accurate frog, please. That would be amazing. Oh, God. And, you know, then there's also the prophecies of one John of Patmos who, at one point, by the way, you know, reading through, claims to have eaten a little scroll given to him by an angel who also told him seven secrets that he wasn't allowed to write down for some reason. But he did also say that God would do horrible, horrible things to all follows of the beast and then cast fire down upon them. You see why he's annoying? An angel showed up. but he gave me a small scroll.

Yeah, he gave him a small scroll. It tasted sweet. Then the angel said seven secrets that he wasn't allowed to write down, but he had plenty of time to write down all the other shit that he talked about. So, cool, I guess. Oh, well, all right. I love that. Be not afraid.

Also, it's interesting. Like, man, it must suck to be. like, well, this is going to seem like an obvious thing to say, but it must suck to be like, you know, with the forces of hell and Satan, because it's like, at what point are you just like, yeah, it's been foretold that we're losing? Like, how exactly do we stop prophecy that's, you know, like, I mean, I guess you can try and fight it and you can try and look for sneaky ways to fight it, but it's like, oh man, we are, it is like, it is predetermined that we suck and die. See, part of me thinks it's just there is so much.

Oh my God, Shire. That is, I hope that's the biblically accurate frog. That's adorable. I, I will legitimately get that as a tattoo if I can get permission. I would 100% do that. That is amazing. When it comes to, I mean, when it comes to the people serving hell, some of them are like, oh, we've been enslaved. but some of them are really like in it to win it and they just hate God and hate creation and hate heaven

and I don't know that there's the foresight there to really think well what if we lose I think it's just so instinct driven that they don't care also I love how casually you're just like oh we've been enslaved I guess we've been enslaved by the devil I guess we kind of have to fight All right, cool. I mean, when you look at the map, there's a good chunk of people who are just, they just grow up there. Like, they're just born in that environment. And like, what do you do? You either try and run away or you fight for the occupying force.

That's it. You've got no other choices. Well, sold at a meat market in hell, that's the other choice. But, you know, when it comes down to it, what are you going to do? You're going to either try to redeem yourself, which is unlikely. You're going to be enslaved, which you can't do anything about, or you're going to volunteer, which maybe gets you a bit more than being enslaved. It's awful, but there's no real alternative to what's happening in that area, you know?

Yeah, that's true. But just like, oh, I've been enslaved. It is what it is. We're going back to somebody's got a case of the Mondays up. Been enslaved. Oh, well. I was born in the territories of hell. Time to strap a fetus to my belt and get in there.

Like, wow. Wow, that was a... I still don't know what the fetus does. I don't know, but it's in the artwork. And every time I see it, I'm like, oh, wow, there's a fetus on his belly. There's no documented reason for that thing being there other than just, yeah, look, I'm evil. There's no mention of it in their like war gear or anything. I don't know why it's there.

I think it's there because, you know, their evil is shit. I think that's the primary reason. Hey, if I'm totally wrong, I would love to be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to contradict that yet. I would love if the justification was, man, you know, We've made these evil hell, uh, troops. And, uh, you know, they just look a little too, just like normal troops. We really got to sell that these guys, hell spawn. Just they're working for hell.

They're working. How can we do that? I know. Belt fetus. It was the fashion at the time. Um, and that feels like a very old reference. I don't know if that's still. I feel like that was an old reference when I was a kid, so I don't think that's going to hold up.

But anyway, I think it holds up. I knew the reference once you said, the fashion of the time. I knew. I knew. One of those immortal references. It never dies. It just stays with you. So with all of that in mind, well, maybe not all of it in mind, but the relevant parts in mind,

it's probably a good time to talk about what heaven is doing to assist the forces of humanity against the horrible threat of hell, because divine intervention being given to humanity presents us with a few different options as to the nature of the war, at least from the perspective of heaven or hell. So we know that hell constructs things like the artillery witch or the war wolf. They've got half-devil, half-beast slaves, half-devil, half-beast leaders, a few fragments of angel-based nightmares and a staggering number of human converts

who range from slave all the way up to person so full of hatred towards God that they saw their own head off in the case of the chorister for hell. Like hell wants results and the demon laws who reside there are more than happy to make those results happen in fairly blatant ways.

On the other side of the aisle, or technically the other side of no man's land, we have humanity with the full backing of heaven. Or do they have the full backing of heaven? That's the big question. Yeah, I mean, I would say the iron sultanate has pretty decent backing by heaven. Like God was like, hey, look, giant wall. It protects you against literally hell.

So I feel like the sultanate have pretty good. standing with Big G, right? We are going to get onto that, and I'm very happy you brought that up, because there's a few different things here. So we talked about the trench pilgrims earlier, right? So the everyday men and women who wake up with a strong urge to go and rip the neck out of a heretic or 20, they don't care about dying, they're all in for fighting for the Lord.

Valuable reinforcements, great work ethic. They're self-organizing, very important. You couldn't ask for anything more. I mean, they could ask for like super strength or some sort of anti-demon bullets or something, but they don't get that. They get a pointy helmet from the church, all the mud they can eat,

and everything else they bring from home or take from a corpse. There's not much. All the mud you can eat. Oh, there's loads in Nomansland. Love it. Absolutely stuffed. All you can eat buffet of life. much. Thank you, God. I'm living the dream.

There's not really much in the way of divine assistance there. I mean, sometimes someone will suffer a fatal wound and shrug it off, so that does count for something, except it doesn't really count for anything when you consider the source for that blessing. Now, here's a question to put you on the spot. Can you remember, who can keeps, Trench Pilgrims alive if they get shot, but then just stay in the fight. Oh, shoot. I can't remember their name, but I remember we talked about them. They're more or less the commissar version. They're the version of a Trench Crusade Commissar, and I can't remember what they're called. Don't they have like the big, wow, they have some weird thing that has like a bunch of skulls on it?

Is it like a shield or something? And it's just like, oh, yeah, don't upset that guy. He's got a giant skull of shields or something. I can't remember what his name is, though. You're not a mile away. You're thinking of the guy who keeps the morale up and keeps them charging forward. There is a specific entity that intervenes on behalf of Trench Pilgrims, which is the seventh Metacrists. Oh, a Meta Christ.

Ah. That is... I didn't realize the Metacrace actually got into the... Fighting, air quotes. That's the thing. For the most part, they don't. Like, in person. So, the Seventh Metacrist,

like, it's a divine creature, but it's created by man. It's a clone shadow of something presumably far more powerful, that being Jesus. And monks from the Mendelist order have managed to clone him, those clones are responsible for the genetically enhanced monsters that fight on the side of heaven.

Unless God is giving divine insight when it comes to the discovery of modern genetics, the Seventh Metacrist and all of the others, that's a human achievement. Yes, they are cloning Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity is involved, but that's an indirect involvement, caused by humanity, not a God-given gift. The Seventh Metacrist is the one that resurrects trench pilgrims and allows them to carry on fighting even after they've been, you know, borderline shot in half. You'd think God would be kind of pissed about that, about humans just like cloning his kid and just

like, you know, turning it into like this horrific, twisted shadow version of it. you think he'd be kind of, you think they'd be kind of pissed about that. You'd think that would border on, you know, slightly blasphemous, heretical things to do. I mean,

granted, it does make it so it's like, oh, well, you know, maybe it is a little blasphemous and heretical for them to, you know,

mutate my fucking son. But like, hell, it does help him fight hell and the demons, and I don't really have to super get involved. And it's kind of working out for him. So I guess I can sweep this under the rug, maybe. This is where it gets really fun and interesting.

So, like, in a similar vein, there's the communicants. So, you know, the big chunky mutated freaks. Yeah. There's either the ones that have got the cross-nail to their face, because, of course, all the ones that have got the giant anti-tank rifle. Like, surely, a gift from the Lord, right? Except not really, again, because the blood and, flesh of Jesus Christ that these guys consume, it's not from the original Son of God.

It's from the Metacrists. Even the Paladins, those like 18 foot tall, perfect communicants, they were created using the blood, not of Jesus Christ himself, but of a near perfect Metacrrist. Those guys can enter hell. Yeah, like they can get in and out of heaven. But again, it's not actually by the grace of God. Instead, they have specially designed armor, which is an invention of man. Even when you get down to things like the stigmatic nuns. So the stigmatic nuns, they gain strength from being wounded and they manifest wounds

to match those suffered by not Jesus Christ, but by the third Meta Christ. Like, you're probably beginning to see a pattern here, at least when it comes to the forces of humanity, which are like augmented by divine power, there are strong creatures and strong humans. Are they getting their strength directly from heaven, directly from God's blessings, or are they getting them from other humans who have worked out how to siphon that off? Yeah, because they're really not getting. anything from the divine.

This is all human-made discoveries and human-made ways to sort of like, oh, this is pseudo-divinity. This is like, you know, pseudo-Christ. And we're getting like all these not quite holy powers, but kind of holy powers. And yeah, heaven isn't really doing much for them. Like heaven's doing stuff for the iron sultanate, like we said, constructed a wall that stops hell. But, uh, these other guys are kind of just like doing their own thing. And I guess I would imagine heaven's like, well, we probably should step in, but like, we're also kind of

benefiting from this. Like, we do want them to keep fighting hell and the demons. Like, they're, they're good little soldiers. But, ooh, it's kind of cringe what they're doing. I love that you've reached my most paranoid theory. Like five pages. before the end of the script. I'm so happy that you've locked in that quick. Yeah, like, honestly,

once, I feel like if Trench Crusade ever hits a finale, it's going to be a finale where it's like, hooray, we stopped hell, the prophecy was fulfilled,

you know, Satan, Lucifer, the council, all that shield off, gone, hooray. And then, God turned on humanity because, guys, you bastardized and mutated my son for like your goals.

And while that was nice of you to do and it did help, y'all are sinners. I love it. I love it. I'm so happy. It's all the same in the end. So like, if we're talking about like heavenly intervention, we have to mention things like the synod of strategic prophecy and the. observers and the other guys whose names are tacticians, that's it.

So like this lot, they're all about listening very carefully to try and make out the word of God, with the observers specifically using carefully honed schools of meditation and their fancy helmets that look like the droids that the Empire uses in Empire Strikes Back. Yeah. Like they use these to access the immediate past, present and future similts. something that's really interesting about this is that the voice of God never decays and in the observer's law there's the description of the divine echo which means that it's not a two-way street

the observers aren't asking for God's favour they're just attuning to his voice for me this is the difference between overhearing someone and using what you've heard to your advantage and someone directly telling you something helpful the synod as a whole that's this is whilst I was like working the script I was like oh oh it feels like they're just listening in for the hopes

for something useful it doesn't say anywhere that God's like yeah do this that's different there's a difference there in previous trench crusade episodes where we've talked about this I was like oh yeah they're tuning in

and God's like oh hey you got the frequency great here let me tell you what to do oh no so they are just essentially eavesdropping on God and hoping that hoping to God, as some would say, that he says something that's useful that they can use to weaponize against hell. Yeah.

Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah, I don't think that theory of ours is too paranoid, dude. I really don't. I don't think this is a paranoid thing anymore because something tells me God knows they're listening and he's maybe dropping little hints, but like, I, oh, man. So, Shai's put something in the chat here, which I want us to remember and go back to in a little bit.

Because, like, all of this is kind of building up to the discussion of, like, how much is heaven helping? Mm-hmm. What is the, what is the, what is the war that is happening in Trench Crusade? is it heaven versus hell? Is it hell versus heaven? Is it hell versus humanity? Like there's a whole lot of stuff that we're going to go over. But we'll save that bit until we get to the end because it fits in really nicely with the other kind of,

the other sort of theories that I've written in for us to talk about. So we've talked about the observers. The synod as a whole is dedicated to just trying to listen better. every development they make, every floor added to the gate of God, every receiver an antenna plugged into either the building or just some poor sod's head. All of it is just to facilitate hearing that permanent echo in the hopes that they gleaned something useful from it.

Even down to the tacticians who can commune with the Council of Saints, I mean the Council of Saints and trying to talk to them, but frankly it's a shit show at the best of times and it tends to result in spiritual battles being fought over Rome between the Lords of Hell and the Council. The tacticians, of course, commune using training from the Synod, special equipment from the Synod, and they're communing with the dead.

Again, how much of that is an intentional effect by God? How much of that is heaven reaching out? And how much of it is humanity trying to listen in to information that they're not being given directly. Oh, almost entirely. That's, um, hmm. Yeah, I, you know, this is not that, I don't feel like our theory is paranoid, dude.

I really, I feel like it is becoming clearer and clear that like, God is allowing them to exist to fight. But not actively helping all that much. Yeah, it feels like, hooray, we've defeated all the sinners. Who's the next target? God? Uh-oh. The line's gone dead.

Yeah. Can me? So we mentioned the Council of Saints there, and that's like another facet of the Catholic side of things we should talk about. Because Saints are a big deal, right? Just before we go through a few of these revered individuals in. French Crusade. As far as I'm aware, saints in the trench crusade universe are made in the same way they're made in the real world. I could be totally wrong on this and I will hold my hands up if at some point the

devs go actually no, saints are designated a different way, but there's nothing to suggest they aren't. So saints in the real world are made doing, made like with canonization, which is the act of making someone a saint, especially a deceased someone. It's an official act and it's decided by a Christian communion. Essentially, to be made a saint, people need miracles. Do enough and you're in, kind of. I'm going to level with you. That's a gross oversimplification of the process. There's a whole thing. Like, canonization in the Roman Catholic Church is like a four-step process and to go through all of it would add an entire extra page to the script. And frankly, it wouldn't add much. So we're going to keep it

simple and we're going to go with Possum's diluted version. Okay. Oh boy. So this is possum's diluted version of how to become a, how to become a saint. So step zero, you've got to be dead. Real dead. Super dead. Step one. Your old pastor has to say, hey, this one right here would look good on a candle.

He was a legend biblically. I see. Is that? Wow, possum, really. Man, he'd look good on a candle. Move on to St. Step number two. I should have had you read that bit. I've read that bit like four times.

It makes me laugh every time. Holy. All right. Step two, the Pope's H.R. team reads your life resume and sends it to him on teams if they think you've got the chops. Step three. The Pope says, yeah, but did this guy do any tricks and requests proof of a miracle? They send him a link to the YouTube channel and the Pope says,

GROC is this true? And a science bishop determines if it's fake or not a la Mythbusters. Oh boy. The Pope asking Grock if the Miracle was seen performed as true was not something I expected to hear today, but man. Welcome to the future, apparently. Welcome to today. Welcome to the now.

Welcome to possum. There. Oh, my God. Okay. And step four. The Pope wants one more certified miracle, and if it's good, he calls the lads in, and they schedule a stag do, and you get to update your LinkedIn to add saint to the front. Did you say they call a stag do?

Possum specifically called out that this would be an issue. What do you think a stag do is? I don't, like, you know, back in the old day when they had like the water buffalo meetings for like, I think it was like for a cartoon or something. I don't know anything about water buffalo meetings I'm going to say right now. It was just like a bunch of old dudes that. like wore these like big tall hats and they would just get around together and like drink and bowl and stuff i feel like it was a simsons thing or something um yeah that's what i imagine just a bunch of dudes getting together and getting drunk just an excuse to like get drunk and be like oh it's our

secret society and we're just going to throw back a couple of yagers and you know yagers i'm i'm afraid to say that that's that's not what a stag do is a stag do is oh god what would it be called for bachelor party before you get married you go out with the boy you and you get wasted. Yeah, that's a stag do. I was close. So in the UK, the men go out on a stag do

and the women go out on a hen party. Ah, gotcha. So there you guys. It's a bachelorette party. It's a bachelor party. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, Bachelor party and Bachelorette party sound far more respectful

than stag do and hen party. Yeah. Honestly, when you said stagged, I was just like, yeah, it's probably a bunch of the boys going out drinking. But for some reason, I was just like, yeah, the water buffaloes, the water buffaloes. I don't know why. Does the animal references? Hen party has always felt really weird to me because, like, a hen pecks constantly and just lays ace all the time. It makes it seem like it's derogatory, but I don't know why.

It just seems irritating. It probably started off derogatory, honestly. Like, so poor, like, women in history have not. had the best titles bestowed on them, unfortunately. That's totally fair. So there's a part of me that thinks that like way back in like the 60s or something, that probably is why they got called it, which is unfortunate. But yeah, it is historically.

A bunch of macling clucking wives just making a bunch of noise wanting to have chilled. It's probably that, isn't it? It probably is unfortunately. That's terrible. I hate it. Again, you think back to like the 60s. and even earlier than that's probably weren't started.

Not a fan. Not a fan at that. Not a fan at all, but you know, unfortunately. Now, Possum has pointed out, if you were a martyr, so if you die for your faith, you get a Disney fast pass and you get to skip to steps three

and four. So, silver linings, I guess. Also, Shai Shai said, all of this can be unironically true for Carlo Acutis, Gamer who became officially a saint on the 7th of September, 24. Oh, a recent saint. Wow.

So in 2020, he was beatified by the Catholic Church after the church recognition of a proposed 2013 miracle in Brazil attributed to his intercession, while a second miracle in Italy was confirmed in 2024. Acutus was canonized as a saint alongside Pierre Giorgio Frizzas. Acutus has been referred to as the patron saint of the internet, God's influencer, and the first millennial saint. This is the memorial at Corpus Christi, I've been there, Maiden Lane in London. What a legend. So what were the miracles, by the by the by?

Like, what were? What happened? I've never heard. That's incredible. I vaguely remember hearing about the patron saint of the internet. Like I said, I vaguely remember hearing that. I don't remember what he did, though, and I don't remember what happened. That's honestly amazing.

I don't care what he did. I'm 100% in. That's the patron saint of the internet. Of the internet, yeah. Oh, my God. That's amazing. Absolutely love it. again the fact

I've I've been to mass at Corpus Christi in London like four times which feels really weird to know that the patron saint of the internet has a memorial there yep okay speaking of saints

that's crazy that's awesome so talking of saints but specifically in Trench Crusade I'm afraid this lad wouldn't be there because it's like 1914 of the internet doesn't exist I'm just going to say would any of us? No, I don't know why I said it.

We're going to move on. We know of a few saints. So we're going to start with St. Dominica of the Zvihander. Amazing name. You can probably guess. Yeah, you can probably guess what the deal was. She had a massive sword because she had superhuman strength. And the background for her is simply that she was granted favor from the

almighty ones. I mean, if you went into this with no other knowledge of the setting, you'd probably go, well, angels or God, or a mix of the two. But we already know that Metacrists can and do routinely intervene in the mortality and strength of human followers. Similarly, wait, did I say that right? Similarly? Yep, that's the one. I think you said it right. I always think I've added, yeah, I lose confidence halfway through. Additionally, we have the Butchard state who no one really knows that much about. All we know for sure is that she has a fancy death mask. She's venerated by the stigmatic nuns who gain their power from the third Metacrise

and that she is missing most of the front of her torso. It's bad. The artwork for her is horrific. I don't like it. but it's very well done. Have I seen the artwork for? Hang on. Let me,

yeah, let me get the picture for you because, oh, Lord, there we go. There you go. So the top one is Dominica of the Zvihander. She looks like an absolute legend.

Yeah, I was going to say, like, what's so creepy about, I thought the Zvihander one was the one that was missing her torso. I was like, Oh, no, no, no. I was like, that's, that's very dripped out, very stylish, big sword that's got, I don't know what's written on it, but I'm sure it's some sort of passage from God.

And I was like, wow, she looks great. What are you talking about? And then I saw the second one. And yes, I have seen that one. And boy, it does not get any less unsettling with the passage of time. Yeah, horrific. Absolutely. Yep, that sucks.

I love that it's like, here is saint number one. And it's just a badass woman in armor with a giant sword and a crown, which looks sick, by the way. And then sate number two is woman with the front of her torso missing. And death mask that probably hides screaming agony that she is constantly in, what with the whole missing half of my front. Yep. And of course you'll note that if you were scroll back up,

that the arrangement of wings on the death mask, is pretty much the same as the horrible temple of metamorphosis. Oh, yeah, it is. It is basically the same, isn't it? Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Love it. Love repeated themes, me, I'm all in. So the Butchard Saint, yeah, venerated by the Stigmatic nuns who also like venerate

the third Metacrise, that's where they get their powers. And she appears in response to praise. uttered by desperate soldiers who have been captured. Once they pray hard enough, they will find that she shows up, talks nicely, quietly, a nice sort of soft voice, and any heretics in the immediate vicinity get horrifically killed as their armour melts into their flesh and their bullets explode in their magazines,

at which point she leaves. Nice! Dang! So if... If you're praying to her, you want her to show up. If she shows up for you, like on your side, it's like, oh, I'm good. Like, everybody else has gone. Sweet suit.

Hey, hey, great, glad to see her. Also, how does she talk, by the way? She's got no, that part of her isn't, isn't that, aren't your vocal cords like gone? It's best not to ask questions. Yeah, it's great. I know. It was a stupid question. It was like, dude, who cares?

She's literally a saint from God in heaven. Like, I like the idea that that's part. I like the idea that's part of the issue where it's like she starts talking. The heretics are like, wait, she has no lungs or heart or vocal cords. Yeah. What is? Oh, and then that's it. She's gone.

Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, D.K., a lady literally shows up that's missing half her front. And you're just like, you know, she doesn't have any vocal cords. How does she talk? You're such a dork. Stop it. That's the issue you have with lady missing her front. That's going to say of all the things to complain. about. It's that.

Where are the vocal cords at? She's in there. He's your dog. All right. Anyway, moving right all on. So, and like, it's stated that she's been kept alive by the grace of God, right? But we also know that trench pilgrims can be kept alive by the Seventh Metacrist in the same way. And we also know that stigmatic nuns get stronger through the grace of the third Metacrist. So, I mean, is there anything to say that this saint isn't just being kept alive in the same way? Is this actually by the grace of God, or is this just a concerted effort by human-made clones of Jesus Christ?

Well, I mean, there's nothing to say that's not what's going on. and given God's involvement thus far, it does tend to make me think that it's more of a concerted effort on the Metacrists level to keep this saint alive. Right? Like, it do kind of seem like that. Are there any other saints that God is keeping alive that we know he's keeping alive because it is the divine and it's not like Meta Christ,

meta nonsense, not nonsense, but like, interference. Yeah, whenever I think the meta, I'm like, oh, it's, it's video game nonsense, meta this, meta that. Have you ever met a woman, right? But this is a little different. This is, yeah. So anyway, but yeah, is there a saint that's like, oh yeah, God actually loves this

saint and is intervening on their behalf? Well, we do have the saint, which is Our Lady Immaculata Penitans. So she was once just called Sister Loretta. She was a member of a small order of devotees to St. Dionysia, a martyre saint. And Loretta and her sisters maintained a small hospice in the sanctuary of the Immaculate Heart in southern Nubia. So they managed to avoid getting caught in the crossfire of the war for quite a long time. but that changed when the Golden Legion showed up and did the whole loot and pillage thing and laid the sanctuary under siege. It didn't take long for Loretta's sisters to die, along with nine-tenths of the people trapped with them. And it was going really well for the Golden Legion until the cult of the Black Grail showed up and because it's hell, they had a massive

fight. The sanctuary that they're in was destroyed in the battle with only a single survivor left. Sister Loretta would rise from the rubble sort of alive in the form of Our Lady of Penitent's, but there is a catch. Her background

states she looks insane. Her background is important because it states maybe the grail bestowed a gift upon her or maybe her apotheosis was truly divine, which is ambiguous as hell.

So she might be divine. Or the cult of the Black Grail, like the Black Grail might have also resurrected her. And that is a faction of hell. I mean, she does kind of give demonic vibes, doesn't she? She's got wrapped up corpses in her wings. Yeah, she's got, I was going to say, she's not like, body, body,

bag, she's got, oh, she does not look like, I mean, like, there are parts of her that's just like, oh yeah, she, like, she has like these sort of like nun-like garbs to her, and she's got like the the sun thing behind her, but then it's like, oh yeah, she's also got black wings and corpses all over her. So, yeah. She is, I believe as the kids say, suss. Yeah, I think the kids do indeed say that. Fun fact, she's drawn by Adrian Smith,

the very first art of Emperor versus Horace in 1990. Yeah, I love that Trench Crusade got so popular that they expanded out, and now we've got artists who did some of the like formulative art for 40K, now doing art for Trench Crusade. That is insane. It's so good. I'm so happy about it.

it kind of crazy also that first image of horace is very different from the one we have now isn't it oh yeah oh boy yeah to be fair i think like 1990 that was 1990 and this is this is the formative art for what warhammer would become so this is like i was about to say oh it's like uh the sacred text and i was like man talking about trench crusade i don't know if i really want to say that so essentially that art from Adrian Smith the first art of the Emperor versus Horus I was

I was three Oh To be fair Getting on for four So You know Like it's It's crazy

It's crazy That 35 years later He's working on something like Trench Crusade That's just That's just awesome. Wait, Adrian Smith did that art? I was going to say, look at the progression, right?

I mean, that is one of the best bits I maintain, and I will fucking, I will fight anyone who disagrees with this. That bit of artwork of that, like, that Slaneshi Marine, that is one of the core pillars of 40K. Oh, yeah. It's beyond iconic. It is completely tied to the IP. It's so good. And he did that. I didn't realize that was him.

That is incredible. Wasn't that a Kodak's cover at some point? Yeah, it was. Yeah, I was going to say, I forget which year, but, yeah. I've seen it somewhere before, too. I've seen it everywhere. Yeah, I think they've been shown to me in.

countless episodes of AdRick so yeah I don't want to someone will correct me if this is wrong but I feel like because at the time my focus was on iron warriors not Empress children but I feel like in the chaos space marines codex which was 3.5 a black and white version of that was the picture they used on the Empress children pages and I think that's where I first saw it, which was in like 2003 or something. And it's so upsetting.

Oh, he also did that art. Like, the classic Horace versus the emperor over Sanguinus's body. Yeah, it's the art. I was going to say, like, look at the progression of the first one that he did versus the

iconic emperor versus Horace one. And that, everyone, is why you practice every day and get better and better. I can't believe I didn't know that. I feel like I've let him down somehow by not realizing it was him that did that piece. And the Sleche Marine and the initial, oh my God. Love it. Absolutely love it. That's made my evening.

Hell yeah. Adrian Smith, what an absolute fucking legend. Yep. And a swore of this back on track, he also did the, the, the... He did the art for the Lady Penitons. Exactly. Wow. So, yeah, we don't know.

We don't know whether it was a case of the grail bringing her back or whether it was God. There's no definitive statement either way, which makes it way more fun. Also, yes, I don't know what's going on with her sword, but it's absolutely mantle. What is it? Does she, like, actively... help humanity, I'm assuming? Because like, if she was revived by demons, you would think she would start doing, you know, demonic stuff and help demons and kill humans.

It doesn't say. It doesn't say anything about what she does or how she acts after her rising from the ashes. Interesting. Okay. There's nothing. So we genuinely don't know. No, we don't know. Okay.

You can literally go to the Trench Crusade website, go to law, click on Our Lady Immaculata Penitence, and you will find absolutely nothing past. She died and rose again. That's it. Okay. Which is the kind of mystery I'm all on board for. I love it.

It's just like, Who is this person? Do know. Anyway, next. Moving on. Like, with all that in mind, if you had to make the call of God and heaven are directly helping the Catholic side of humanity or humanity has been forced to find ways to utilize the word of God

and the powers of heaven themselves, which would you go for? I think we've already come to the conclusion of what I would go for, but it is very clearly they are just finding ways, right? It's not actually God intervening. It's not actually heaven helping them. They are just finding ways to siphon the divinity and use it to

stave off literally. Look at that hell portal over there. It sure doesn't seem like God is watching out for them in the same way that he's watching out for like the Iron Sultanate. Now, it's good you mention that. So we're going to skip a couple of things with the iron sultanate, but you talked about them and the fact that they have this wall.

They do have the wall. And if you take what they say at face value, the wall just appeared. It's a self-healing, impenetrable wonder, manifested itself out of nowhere. So clearly, divine intervention took place.

Like, if you take their word for it. When you look at everything else they do, it does not involve anything divine at all. Nothing. And that's one of the things that make them so interesting. So they've got this insane wall that God gave them, but their weapons are crafted by them.

Their homunculuses and their crazy guardians, their tackling creations are achieved through alchemy. through learning, through science, and through the keys of Solomon, which involves magic, but none of that is strictly speaking divine. So if the wall was a result of divine intervention, great.

They have the one major miracle that we can properly trace, and everything outside of that, once again, is down to them, either manipulating their knowledge of alchemy, their knowledge of magic, and that's it. They don't call upon things like divine intervention for anything else in their arsenal. They don't have things like communicants. They don't have paladins. Instead, they've got alchemy.

They have tackling creations, which are nothing to do with divine influence at all. Hmm Well I mean Hey What more can you ask for Other than impenetrable wall Right

I mean It's pretty good As one time favours go It's pretty decent Yeah They don't want to Oversay their welcome Right

Oh come on God gave us the Impenetrable wall Let's let's do all the other stuff On our own Hey Like we've already been given enough We're right

It's It is crazy that the one, like, when it comes to properly traceable, huge miracle, it seems to be the war. And is that the only thing? I say the only thing, like, it's not a big deal. I mean, it's a big deal for the Iron Sultan is. It's not a big deal for everybody else. Is that really the only miracle that, like, God has bestowed upon all of these humans that are fighting and dying to, you know, essentially win this divine war for him? This is the thing. There's talk of like battlefield miracles. There's talk of, you know, crazy things happening. But in terms of actual provable in universe, we 100% know this was God's intervention. There's the wall, provided you take it of face value. And not much else. You could say that the trench pilgrims are evidence of constant miracle work. Because, you could say that the trench pilgrims are evidence of constant miracle work. Because, you know, you know, they go to the front line, whether they like it or not. But really, there's not a huge amount out there to say that heaven is directly intervening. So we've talked about the covenant of hell, right?

And the fact that true demons can't set foot in the mortal realm without breaking that covenant. So there is another important question, which is, what about angels? Demons don't dare step foot, but is there anything stopping angels from demons? doing it. Technically, it would appear that nothing is stopping them from doing it. There is one example of an angel being seen in Trench Crusade, and it's very similar to the biblical description of an angel showing up in an Assyrian camp and killing 185,000 people. In Trench Crusade, the soldiers experience the presence of an angel. They get some warning. There's a trumpet blast. They know not to look at it, but they can't help but see it. The angel in question steps down from the sky,

in a torrent of light and when it spoke it was like thunder. They couldn't understand what it said and the mere sound of it drove them insane with several finding creative ways to permanently remove themselves from the situation and the main character finding that his head was suddenly on fire.

We know from that that angels are massively, horrifically destructive. Their presence, their appearance, just the sound of their voices are enough to drive believers. You know, the faithful of God, it drives them insane to the extent that they will end their own existence in reaction to it, all burst into flames just from being near it. Sure, the heretics probably had a worse time, right?

But if heaven is really trying to prevent hell from fully overrunning the earth, casually wiping out your own troops by dropping the equivalent of a small nuclear bomb, but with added insanity onto the front lines, every time you directly intervene, it's not going to help all that much when you get right down to it. It's also interesting that, like, the believers have essentially the same reaction to an angel

that the heretics do, where they're just like, oh, my God, my head's on fire. Oh, my God, I have to end my life. Oh, my God, this thing is just looking at it, makes me want to... And it's like, you would think, think that the divine would be like, oh, yeah, as long as you're a believer and as long as I have put my, like, love in you, oh, the angel shouldn't affect you, right? It's strange that the angel is like also just very destructive towards stuff that is also, air quotes, on its side.

I think it's just, I think it's just too much. Like, it's physically and mentally too much for anyone to comprehend. There's, in the Bible, like when it comes to Angel showing up, they use the phrase, be not afraid. Yeah, they do. And there's a reason for it. Weirdly, I hate using this reference because I'm not a huge fan of this show, but supernatural. My wife loves it. She's watched the entire thing through like five times.

Wow. I've never seen a single episode. Oh, my God, don't. So there is a point where when, a major character Castiel, who is an angel, appears, he makes the comment that when he's not in a mortal vessel, who had to sacrifice his life for him to be able to inhabit it, when he's not in this mortal vessel,

he's like a hundred stories tall and just talking would kill you? I mean, it feels like it's kind of like that in Trench Crusade, where just the idea of it is so alien, so other, so completely overwhelming that you simply cannot survive an encounter with one, because as a mortal being, you are simply not equipped to deal with it, which is awesome, but also very scary. It's very lovecraftian in a weird way. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, man, biblically accurate angels are weird, right? They really are. Like, you just, you always, was think of them as like these just beautiful, like white robe, blonde hair,

pristine angel wings, just halo coming down and just giving you a little pat on the head and making everything okay. And then you get the biblically accurate ones that are just like you said, they're like these Lovecraftian Casulu monsters. I don't want to say monster because it's still an angel, but it's just like, yeah, you need a little be not afraid because, hey, don't worry. I know I look a little strange, but like, trust me, I'm here for you. Like, yeah.

That's the thing. A lot of artwork especially has kind of defaulted angels to hot guy slash hot girl with a pair of wings. Yeah. And a halo. And that's what you get. And they're dressed in white and they're super kind of flowy and, oh, look at this amazing ethereal creature. But then you've got stuff that's like, and it had eight wings. And two of the wings were covering its feet.

and two of the wings were covering its midriff and it had eyes all over its wings or it's like and there were nine concentric circles covered in eyes and it's like what the fuck is this what are you talking about? What you mean it's just a bunch of weird floating circles and

that is the thing that never really I say never I feel like increasingly it does get talked about because frankly let's be totally blunt and eyes here the weirdest hell angels are way cooler than just some dipshit with a pair of wings.

They just are. They just way more fun. You show me a thing that it's like... They are more fun, yeah. Ten wings with eyes all over them. And I'm going to go, what the hell is that? That's really awesome.

What is it? You show me just some idiot with a pair of wings. I'm like, cool. Great. Some idiot with wings. Who cares? It's nothing new.

It's nothing different. Get it out of my face. But a bunch of circles covered in eyes. I'm in. An amalgamation of wings, eyeballs and circles, sign me up. Some hot-y-with wings. Hell yeah, dude. Hell yeah.

Please, someone, does someone get the meme of, who is it? Is it Drake that's like pushing away the one thing and then pointing the finger at the other one because he likes it? We need to get that with Keriath, but like, oh, idiot. But with angels. But the biblically accurate one, mm-hmm. Oh, God. But yeah, I feel like traditionally. it's been a lot of ethereal beauty

when really you should be having an equal number of horrifying monstrosity and that's totally fine but yeah you can't just throw an angel in right we know that that's not a good idea because it messes everyone up because of how alien and weird they are

but at that point what does hell stand to lose by not responding in kind if heaven is going to start like orbital dropping angels into important engagements, surely the second war between the fallen and their divine siblings, it's already started, in which case it's time to step out of the portal to hell and take the rest of the world with you. With all of that foundation laid,

this is where we're going to try and decide what kind of war this is. So there's a few options. A proxy war for one. So hell is sending half deep. They're recruiting humans forcefully otherwise in order to spread conflict across the mortal world, destroying the creations of God, spoiling his plan, and in response, humanity is fighting back because we want to live. And, on the surface at least, they're receiving assistance from God. In this situation, on the surface, we've got two superpowers in a centuries-long conflict.

Like, remember, the Templars opened the portal to hell in 1099. We are currently in 1914. We are not that far off, a thousand years of suffering and war. It's summer time. It's pretty bad. But at the moment, hell can't dispatch real demons. The demon lords of hell can't walk the earth. Heaven has one example of an angel setting foot on the battlefield.

This is two superpowers in a centuries-long conflict, and neither of them are suffering any real casualties. Instead, humanity is suffering all of the casualties. That is true. It is pretty much just human losses at this point, isn't it? No one's losing anything of value. Just a fallen angel, right? There are angels that have been kicked out of heaven and, you know.

They're already gone. Like when you look at the yoke fiends. I mean, what are they? They're just half cow, half idiot. No one cares. Even the preators are like, oh, well, he's half demon. So he's worth, no. They have to do incredible things to get a seat at the table.

And even then, they're not worth as much as a full-blooded demon. So even the ones they put significant time an effort into, they're just not worth fighting for. And at the moment, neither side are actually having to properly sacrifice anything to keep the war going or to attempt to win it. Well, I mean, if you can fight and win a war without losing any real casualties on your side, that's kind of the way to go. I mean, it does seem like it's just a big war by proxy, though, doesn't it?

They're just, oh, yeah, let's just proxy some, some believers in heretics and they'll do it for us and let's see who wins and and then once once we run out of proxies i guess we can take the field that's the thing like initially it's like okay this just it's probably just a proxy war it's just two powers going at it without having to sacrifice anything of their own but there is an extra consideration when it comes to a proxy war which is that god generally speaking does not give straight answers or at least not anymore a fair bit of the old is him giving very direct responses. Yeah.

But the New Testament has a lot more of the emphasis on being ineffable. It could well be that the war in trench crusade has something of a Between Two Fires flavor to it. So Between Two Fires is a brilliant horror historical fiction novel by Christopher Buellman, which tells the story of Thomas, a French former knight who escorts a young. girl called Delphine across France, as the country is ravaged by the Black Death. In this timeline, the Black Death was introduced by Lucifer and his fallen angels as they start another war against heaven. Now, if that's enough for you to want to go and read it yourself, me and Possum both highly recommend this book. It is fantastic. We both love it. And you will probably

want to skip ahead of it in this episode to avoid spoilers, starting now, because it's weirdly relevant to what we're talking about. So one of the big themes reinforced at the start of every chapter is the idea that while the black death spreads and millions die, God does nothing. Specifically using the phrasing, and the Lord made no answer. So demons will walk in the earth, corrupting and tormenting humanity, and the Lord made no answer. Thomas is repeatedly tempted, and tested by devils puppeting the dead, by twisting dreams that cause real actions that he finds deplorable and immoral,

the Lord made no answer. While some of his angels weakened and beset by demons sacrificed themselves on earth, the Lord made no answer. You get the idea. You're probably thinking that it's... Oh, oh, go ahead, go ahead. No, go on, go on.

I was going to say, this is sounding like, what is it? Is it the Book of Job? where the God and the devil are in this little agreement and it's God's just like, oh yeah, this is my favorite servant ever. He is so loyal. He is incorruptible. There is nothing you can do that will make him renounce my name and his faith in me.

And then the devil's just like, okay, bet, and then just makes his life as miserable as he can. And God just kind of has to watch and have faith that, you know, Job will still be righteous because, you know, doesn't it kill like his whole family or something? They fall to sickness. He becomes really ill and Joe gets obliterated by the devil. And I'm pretty sure Joe doesn't ever actually like relent, right?

And he stays faithful to the end. Which is why that is. That is a loyal servant indeed. Sounds like that. Yeah. Yeah. You are absolutely correct. So like you are probably thinking it sounds horrifically depressing and bleak, which most of the book is, to be fair.

But it's another case of it's like all is not lost because eventually that repeated phrase and the Lord made no answer, it changes to the Lord made answer. because there was always a plan. God had an answer, but even the vessel he slash Jesus had chosen to be carried, like to be carried in, didn't understand what it was. For most of the book, Delphine was an innocent young girl, but by the end of it, she was the gate through which Michael and his army of angels would charge forth and sweep the demons from the face of the earth. and Thomas upholding his oath to keep her safe

was one of the things that guaranteed that that would happen. So on the surface of it, demons are roaming the earth, the black death is killing millions, it is a hellscape nightmare and God is doing nothing. Except in the background, God always had a plan. He was always working. He was working through one specific girl

Thomas wasn't necessarily being manipulated by God. He just had to be the person that he was at his core, which is a good person. And as long as he stuck to that, the plan would come to fruition. In Trench Crusade, it looks like everything is awful and it's impossible for it's getting better, but there could be a plan.

Like, how do we know if God is working his purpose out? We don't. That's true. while it might seem like he is just ignoring everyone and like, oh, you know, he's not giving humanity anything, it's like, well, it could be part of the plan to just wait and watch, or there could be someone that he is working through that we don't know yet, and it's just all part of the plan. And it's like, oh, he was watching us all along and just waiting for that pinpoint right moment to just break it open.

That's true. Yeah. It's happened before. There's a whole ineffability thing. There's like an unknown plan. There's, it's what God shows. Like,

there could be something in the background that effectively means that all of the suffering was for a purpose and that it all becomes either resolved or even reversed. But how would you know? How would you actually know at any given point? Until it happens, there's no way of knowing. until the plan has been laid bare. Yeah, and in fact, actually, this is a good point to go back to that thing that Shai posted earlier. So are you okay to go and read that?

Because I feel like that highlights it really well. Let's see. The Parable of the Drowning Man? Yes. Okay, I can indeed read this. A storm descends on a small town, and the downporn soon turns into a flood, As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch surrounded by water. By the by, one of the townsville comes up the street in a canoe.

Better get in, preacher, the waters are rising fast. No, says the preacher, I have faith in the Lord. He will save me. Still, the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication, when another guy zips up in a motorboat. Come on, preacher, we need to get you out of here. the levee's going to break any minute. Once again, the preacher is unmoved.

I shall remain. The Lord will see me through. After a while, the levy breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there clinging to the cross when a helicopter descends out of the clouds and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.

Grab the latter, preacher. This is your last chance. Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him. And predictably, he drowned. A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while, he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty, Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn't you deliver me from that flood?

God shakes his head. What did you want from me? I sent you two boats in a helicopter. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah, it's very appropriate. It feels. Mm-hmm.

It feels appropriate. Where it's like, you know, maybe, maybe God sent them. the knowledge to work the Meta Christ the way they did, to get the divinity themselves. And so, yeah, you know, maybe it's, it's that sort of mysterious

plan and delivering things in a very ungodlike way. That is the way he's stepping in. True. True. Maybe, maybe we're not. Maybe the paranoid theory isn't real. And to, to finish it off, now that hope has been restored

somewhat, now that there could be some plan behind it all, some way of actually defeating hell. Another distinct possibility is that heaven is prepared for all out war with hell, but they're in a position where they simply don't need to commit. Like going by revelations, humans are shit out of look, but God and his armies will inevitably win, and that's that. But if things are in fact a bit more fluid in the world of Trench Crusade, it's possible that that conflict wouldn't be a foregone conclusion. the all-out war between heaven and hell would be devastating for both sides and that heaven risks losing. In that situation, when you already have a world full of humans fighting against

your ancient enemy for you in your name, and all you have to do is ignore the fact that they're cloning your son, who is also you, and trying to listen to you talking your sleep, why wouldn't you just let it run? What's the motivation to start? it. If you directly intervene, hell could kick off revelations to electric boogaloo, but if you let humanity fight, they could pull off something amazing and actually wound your eternal enemy, the one thing you have to worry about. Why would you bother stepping in? You just wouldn't, would you? I mean, and I guess that's true for both sides, right? Like, if you're heaven, why would you step in? If you're hell, why would you step in? Both sides have very loyal,

armies that are willing to, you know, potentially drive out and wound you're a mortal enemy. There's no reason for either of them to really, like, you know, step into the conflict just yet. There's no reason to kick off the Cold War, right? That's, you know what, the final paragraph in this,

you've nailed it immediately. There's, there is a hint of cold war to all of it. Hell doesn't want to overstep. Heaven doesn't necessarily want to throw angels at the front line. all the while, humanity is, as the phrase goes, up shit creek without a paddle. And you can just sit back and watch. Yeah, in Trench Crusade, the worst thing you can be is a human.

Absolutely. 100%. Yep. No matter who wins, we all lose. Yeah. Almost as though. Once that eternal war starts, if there's any humans left, you're done. are so done.

Yeah, no matter what you do, you're not going to make it out in one piece. It's like, if you're on the side of heaven, it's like, well, that's great. You're probably going to die to an angel when they start, you know, jumping onto the battlefield. Even if you're not, it's like, well, you know, the demons of hell are pouring out. Demon generals are everywhere. They're probably going to get you. The only thing that'll save you is probably an angel, which, as we just explained, not going to help you. Oh man, it sucks

Bad times All around for humanity And And Well, I was going to say and Alternatively, if you're not in Trench Crusade But you do enjoy episodes like this There is a new podcast

That you should check out How smooth How buttery smooth Was that I mean, I've ruined it by pointing it out But we are doing another podcast called acceptable losses. We are covering grim, dark universes, we are doing speculatory episodes just like this one,

covering things like Trench Crusade, and God knows what else. There's a million worlds out there that are full of absolutely awful scenarios that we are going to talk to you about, and you should go and check it out. Hell yeah. I'm assuming there is a link in the description or something like that. Um, because the first episode should be out soon, yeah. Now, right, shall I? Right smack now?

It's out now. It's out now. We have confirmation, and it's not dissimilar to what we've talked about here. No, it's actually not. Thematically, on point. Yeah. So, you should check it out now.