Adeptus Ridiculous - ULTRAMARINES FT. Luetin: ULTRADEPRESSION, SPACE MARINE 2, TABLETOP VS LORE | Warhammer 40k

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

https://www.patreon.com/AdeptusRidiculoushttps://www.adeptusridiculous.com/https://twitter.com/AdRidiculoushttps://orchideight.com/collections/adeptus-ridiculousSpecial guest @Luetin09 In this episode Luetin of the Luetin09 fame joins the boys to talk about Ultramarines & their history, Calgar, disconnect between lore and tabletop, opinions on Space Marine 2, and how it brought new and old fans back into Warhammer 40k. Support the show

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Adeptus Ridiculous podcast. My name is D.K. Diamantis. His name is Bricky. And we have a very special guest, Luton with us. But before we get into all that, if you would like to support the podcast, heading over to Patreon.com slash Adeptus Ridiculous, where you can get access to the Discord, bloopers if they happen. $15 tier gets you access to all of our posters in digital HD form. Also, you can follow the Patreon for free on Google, Apple, Facebook, and you can start a free trial, but the free trial will require a credit card. So patreon.com slash adeptus ridiculous. Bricky,

tell them about the store. Yeah, you know, we have a brand new merch drop coming very soon. So keep your ears and eyes out for that. It's going to happen early October. We're talking dice. We're talking mats. We're talking clothing. It's all good stuff. Check out Orchidate.com in the description for the Adiric section and you can see a lot more of that so but keep an ear out some cool stuff also we're going through the horace heresy trilogy so read that as well we're doing false gods next which i hear is also very good because garville lokin is like the best character ever yeah he really is he's really cool luten how you doing how you're doing hello good evening good evening good morning whatever time it is for when you're listening to this i suppose

good evening good morning good night is that how it goes yeah exactly exactly yeah yeah little Truman here. I may have butchered the Truman thing, but it is how it is. You've been, you've been getting your, some, some blue boy representation lately. Yes, it's very nice, of course, nice to have, you know, the best chapter being properly represented, so that's all good to work. Okay. They haven't, they haven't had a lot of representation before, so, you know. Oh, yeah, they're so rarely covered are the Ultramarines. I feel like it's really, I feel like it's proportional, you know, like it's proportional to the, you know, merit, basically. So that's how they do do everything. Well, yeah, that's a good point. You know, I mean, when it comes, if I were to go on the, like, like a Warhammer Wikipedia and look up list of victories per chapter, they would be at top. Yeah, probably. Yeah, I guess they would, wouldn't they? I mean, you know, could it be because they have more stories? Maybe. But that's not how we're going to roll with that. It's all good.

I think today we were going to talk around a few different things related to space marine too. Obviously, though, the ultramines were one of them. But I couldn't remember was, do you have a strong feeling about the ultramarines from things you have read or literally the sort of pop culture memeory related to them? Honestly, for me, I feel like it's a lot related to the pop culture memeory, right? Where it's just a lot of like, oh, the codex is. does not support this action type thing. And, oh, they're such Boy Scouts. And, oh, they always win.

Oh, look at Marnius Calgar ripping the head off of a Lord of Skulls. And so it's a lot of that. But, like, it's weird, too. Because as soon as I start, like, reading about, like, Gilliman or, like, Uriel Ventures, it's like, oh, well, they're not really Boy Scouts at all. Like, sure, they win a lot. But it's not like they come out unscathed. It's not like they're perfect.

It's like, oh, they kind of do have interesting characters. So I'm trying to kind of shake off the, the memory-based ultramarine bias I have and actually, like, you know, give them a fair shake. So, yeah. I feel like that works for you, DK, but I feel like for Bricky, you know, the transition, the comparison, the scale between nightlords and ultramarines, is that just too big of a bridge to cross? So I mean, you know, I mean obviously, you know, as of lately, there's a lot more ultramarine stuff obviously due to the game.

And despite me complaining about a lot of things about the game, I actually do still really, really like it as a video game because video games are supposed to be fun and it's pretty fun. Though the obvious thing that goes along with it is like Titus, for example, I actually, like as a character, he's got a pretty decent arc in the second game. that I think is like pretty well fleshed, even if I don't think the other two were as good. It's so crazy to say this, but I actually like Leandroos. Like I think his like, his like new position totally fits and it really works.

But no, I'm with Shy. Shy said in my opinion, in general, Ultramarines are very mid as they're designed to be, but have some great characters. And no, I don't mean Primark or Calgar.

I don't know enough about Calgar in his own character. I mean, he barely had any screen time in the game. But I do love Gilliman as a character. Gilliman now, sure. Yeah. Gilliman's fantastic. I also don't know enough about Calgar to parse the difference between Calgar versus Calgar and like text to speech where he's like constantly depressed.

But a lot of Ultramarines seem to have like depression. Like, Uriel Ventris has gone through some shit. Some. Ketocarius was the mean. but then they kind of like turned him into a genuinely like tragic character which is kind of neat yeah well here's the thing here's the reason why you don't know much about calgar and this is why i don't have a particular interest in him and i said this in my video recently he's not really a big fan i'm not really big fan of him i mean gilliman's actually had more material really written about him

because calgar basically doesn't really appear in any novels in a big way anyway if you look at the sort of reference list for Calgar, it's white dwarfs, codexes, he is in Imperial Armour Volume 2, and then it's modern stuff like Dark Imperium and the Vigilus campaign, and obviously the comic stuff as well. That's basically it. There isn't like some huge Calgary, there isn't like a Calgar trilogy or anything like that.

And of course it does speak about like his personal history and stuff like that. But, I mean, you know, if you go on any of the wikis and look at Calgar, it's brief. It's pretty brief. Like, there isn't too much to go on with him. And that's why I feel like he's not a particularly interesting or great character. Gilemon's way more fleshed out. So, yeah. That's weird.

Because I would have to... Oh, go ahead. Good. No, I was saying, just compare to other chapter masters, right? Like, I mean, not every chapter master has a huge amount of lore about them, but, like, you compare Calgar to, like, Dante. Right? And it's just, it's a massive difference because you have devastation.

ball and all that kind of stuff but it definitely does but then again there's a couple others like I don't know like what is Iron Father Firos got going on you know he's just kind of like a dude he's a metal dude but yeah I don't know it I mean it also depends

too because like you know Uriel Ventures has a whole trilogy about the damn guy yeah right so it is a little surprising Calgar is so light yeah that's what I was going to say like it's because like I've seen so many Calgar memes yeah that's what I did understand as well. I mean, I said this as well, like, Tigurias has actually more sort of, I don't know,

interesting law snippets about him. And I think Tigurias would have been a more interesting figure as well. I mean, overall, there are just more interesting characters elsewhere, I think, that have appeared related to the Ultramarines. And, yeah, Ventras obviously is a big one. Yeah. Can I ask real quick, should I know who Tigurius is? I've mentioned him once or twice. He's the lead librarian of the ultramarines. Gotcha. Okay. Well, that would make sense as to why he would be kind of concerned with what would be happening in space marine too, sure. You make a really good point that, shy, that like, Chief Librarian Tigarius, it would still be kind of like a random, like, you know, we didn't talk about him much prior. But it would have been a better choice because he has had a lot of, like, tyrannid-related lore revolving him.

I think he's the only person. Oh, is he the only person that Pirate? in the Tirenet Hive mine or did Bifiston do that too? Oh. Regardless, yeah. Yeah, that's kind of a big deal, right? Like, that's no small little dipsy dood day thing. That's huge. I mean, Tigris, he, similarly to the Eldar,

he can also kind of see forward in time a little in the same way that's sort of farceas and stuff, because he is so incredibly powerful. And the accuracy related to his predictions as well and the intentions of, obviously he's had a lot of stuff to do with the tyranids because of how much the Ultramarines have had to do with the tyrannids as well.

But yeah, I think it's more suggested. It says many believe that he has been even able to penetrate the hive mind. Yeah, Tegarius is like, he's kind of, he's kind of the big, like big T, you know, he's kind of, he's kind of, he's going to get some. Big T, all right. Yeah, he's had a lot of lore. I think he's one of the most, if not the most powerful space marine psycher. He's up there.

I think it's definitely said that he's like, you know, second only to the emperor, perhaps. he's yeah he's yeah he's really quite powerful yeah he's he's nuts uh it's actually kind of insane him and like mephiston i know are both like really powerful psychers but i would say i would say i would say i would say malcador but he sat in the chair and it didn't go so well for him um also it's again it's also often these little short stories like um the you know the board is set some of the heresy short stories and i think tiguris appears in this other one shadow of leviathan uh where he encounters a mal and that's another thing where he sort of encounters the hive mind. So it's been a few times.

I think the point is, is that only an extremely, extremely powerful cycle would even be able to penetrate the hive mind because of how obviously, you know, think about how immense the hive mind is. You know, we talk about the shadow in the warp.

Imagine being a cycle, being able to actually penetrate and not have your brain just like ripped to shreds instantly, you know, evaporated by, you know, disintegrated by the power of the hive mind. You know, only somebody like, you know, a high-end psych is going to be able to do that. Which is why, do you know what, I really love,

do you remember the 10th edition trailer where the Space Marine Terminator librarian just comes up and he just gets deleted from play the Tyrannids? And I was like, damn, that's pretty. Because you know, they do always make the space marines look to be so epic and overpowered and stuff. And I love the fact, and also, I love that animation

where the Tyrannid Psycho is just like, it's sort of flexing its psychic, muscles and you see like this kind of swelling wave hits the terminator librarian and he's just vaporized. He's instantly gone and I'm just like that is epic, you know, because a lot of the tyrannid psychic creatures are way off the scale. Yeah, they're insane. Forget about the tabletop.

But yeah, they are absolutely off the scale compared to like human psychers. Can I ask since, since I'm sure a lot of people are finding this video via like Space Marine 2. Like, what's a, what, what, how bad is a zoanthrope? Like, because they're obviously like these big brainy sort of like, I don't know, are they psycher type things? Yeah. Like, like, what are they on like a scale of like, oh God, these tyrannids are horribly

awful, um, psychers, right? Because I don't know about you guys. I sure do hate fighting those motherfuss. Then Eurothrope is much worse, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, they're pretty, I mean, they're pretty nasty. Yeah, they usually come in like a group, don't they, in terms of...

Yeah, they come in twos in the game anyway, yeah. I think on the tabletop you can go, I think it's like up to five. But they are kind of, I mean, it's funny. Like, you should never really compare the tabletop to the law because it's just so incomparable. It's miles apart. I think one of the things I never see talked about enough is the sort of reverse, the nulls,

and what the effect can be there. nulls are always described like as in human nulls always described as being like grating to other humans they kind of feel like an irritating presence it's sort of scratching your brain and it kind of their presence is discomforting because obviously humans even all humans have like this very low low level psychic latency but a null will push back against that and make you feel so they often end up being that's why they're called priors because they end up being sort of um you know priored by a community or whatever

because nobody wants to be around them It's actually that's actually one thing They utilize a lot in the game And they don't really explain it But that's kind of one of the ones you don't really need to explain Like Blackstone is the major The major driving force at the end of the game It's the polarization between null and enhancement

Of the Blackstone thing So the guy goes from null and he flips it over to enhancement And that's what causes everything Part of me was kind of like I was kind of like I forget What's the name of the guy? lose, right? The admet guy? I was like,

Lou's just grab it and turn it over again. Just turn it over again. Yeah. Like what's his bucket? I was like, no, just spit it. Just spin it. But he's a loser. Do you think that was an actual null matrix?

Do you think they just found a necron null matrix and was like, and they just kind of powered it up, basically? It definitely seemed that way because he clearly turned it on. And then like, well, because we know Blackstone when affected by the particular like polarization, either you can enhance or nullify psychic in the warp. And so clearly, like, you know, the final mission obviously was spinning the things over to reverse the polarization. I was going to say for anybody who doesn't know, like a null matrix, they're like a little self-defense thing on Necron tomb worlds. So the idea was when the necrons

went into their immense sleep for millions of years, obviously they were worried about being attacked. They weren't too worried about being physically attacked. They were worried about being psychically attacked. So they've got these null matrices and basically, if activated, it creates a localized null matrix around a planet. So if you have a tomb world, it basically creates this

null sphere around the planet and just as you see in the game completely blocks anything from the warp or psychic activity, which is chaos or Eldar. And shy is right. Shai is right. It also disrupts tyranny synaptic links, which brings me to two things I want to talk about.

One, they could have locked that in with the end of space morning two, which is something I didn't talk about in my original video and thought about it later, and I was like, oh, I could have mentioned that. Basically, they could have locked that in with the story of, because as you guys discussed and I discussed, it doesn't particularly clearly resolve what happens with the tyrianids in the game. And they could have linked those two things together. And I think that would have been really amazing to sort of make that kind of.

connection narratively and just it would have made sense to finish the whole campaign of the game and so on and so on. You know, you've killed two birds with one stone. But the other thing is, is this is one of my quite big theories for 40K. Obviously at the moment in the contemporary law, they're trying to sort of seal the rift and the mechanica. So trying to do stuff with the blackstone to try and do that. And the necrons are sort of doing their own thing as well. Even if they resolve the rift and if they resolve stuff with chaos and they seal that up, well, they've still got to deal with the tyrantids and that's like a problem that's like a thousand times worse and it's like what do you do about that well if if the imperium is able to use blackstone

to create like um a sort of null barrier essentially kind of what crippram was trying to do when he did the exterminatist thing where he was like if i exterminate as enough planets the tyrantids won't be able to get enough biomass to make it worth it while keep going which doesn't really which doesn't really make any sense when you consider the fact they had to get to our galaxy in the first place and it's like

if you're traveling from one galaxy to another that's a long way to travel without having any sustenance so clearly they can travel from massive distances. Cretman wasn't exactly the smartest of all people though he wasn't exactly the best

guy ever very interesting choice he's not gone forever his ideas were sound his execution needed some work. He basically did the the Halo thing,

Star of the Tyrannids of their food source, you know? I like how he's excommunicated from the Inquisition, but then sort of was like, no. And that's kind of the funny thing with the Inquisition that I like is that an Inquisitor

can be excommunicated by other Inquisitors, but then the galaxy is so big they could just go somewhere else and nobody would know and they can just carry on doing whatever the hell they want. So they're basically, once you're an Inquisity, you're basically, you know, immune for all time unless they catch up with you.

Someone said something hilarious, which was, I forgot where the post was, but it was like, the average Inquisitor commits 10 exterminatuses a year. It's like, that's bad data because Inquisitor Cripman commits 400,000 exterminatuses every half second so that the data is being mixed up to 10 exterminatuses per year, and he should have, he should have been removed from the data pool. Yeah. So if it wasn't ultramarines, what chapter would you have wanted Space Marine 2 to be?

Ooh. You know what? I got to be honest. I think that the general visual spectacle and stuff of Space Marine 2 is pretty good, like the hive worlds and the hive cities and all that like splendor. But part of me would have liked a lot more,

okay, Shai says Death Watch, which I would agree with. I think that's a fair choice, actually. I've seen a couple of people say that. It does present lots of really good opportunities. I would have liked a bit more like gimmick stuff vehicle sections and things. I would have killed for White Scars. I think if you could have done like a couple bike missions or like a speeder thing and done a couple modes where it's like shows the grandeur and size of where you're going through

by being on a bike or a speeder, I don't know. I don't know would have been super cool. And also white scars don't get any. love. I mean, Death Watch just got relegated to Age the Inquisition, so they're getting less than love. They're getting punished. But even so. Does it make me vanilla ice cream that I'm just

like, I wouldn't mind seeing the Blood Angels in something like this? No, people love the Blood Angels. Because, like, if you could shoehorn in, like, a Black Rage mechanic, too. Yeah. That'd be really cool.

And I'd really like that. Yeah. I would have made for a good like, tragic character. fall, having one of your squad mates fall at the Black Rage. Rage, yeah. He starts occasionally calling the enemies you're fighting Horace and you're like, what? Oh, no.

This is bad. Death Watch, I mean, that opening cutscene with the Death Watch in the Corvus Black Star is like the coolest Warhammer cutscene I've seen. Yeah, that is a great introduction to Warhammer, right? If you want to like sell someone on like the scope and grandeur of Warhammer, just play the intro. Like even if you can't, for some reason, stomach it, just play the intro, because that's, whoo, that'll sell you.

It is unfortunate that the coolest part involved the Death Watch, and it is literally after they got relegated to agents of the Inquisition, and they're not even a real faction anymore. It's such a humorous thing, even though it really sucks. Also, give us the beaky helmets already for customization. What's going on? I think that's actually a good point. I think Death Watch would make a pretty great...

Oh, Shai beat me to it, yep. Because you can have each character from the Death Watch from a different, you know, Legion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could have so many different Legion characters and they mix in and, oh, you're right. That could have absolutely been a great way to have, like, a dynamic between a Dark Angel and a Space Wolf.

And the Space Wolf be generally kind of heroic, and the Dark Angel be, you know, the Dark Angel. Yeah. And see what happens there. Yeah, that would make some really good character dynamic moments. for sure. Luton, would you also pick Death Watch or did you have a different idea? I probably would, but where I sort of started to go when I was thinking about the other day was everybody was sort of saying different chapters and it's like, yeah, Templars would be really cool.

Yeah, Blood Angels would be good like D.K. was saying because of the Black Rage and all that kind of thing. That would be really interesting to do. I would leave and like to maybe, I mean, they wouldn't do it because it's not full on enough, but it would be really cool. to go into some of the other chapters like Nova Marines or Minotaurs or other guys like this. Minotors, yes, let's go. You know, that would be really cool.

It would never happen, but like, that would be fun. Consuls, perhaps, something like that. Obviously, I think, like, imagine a Dark Angel's one what you could do with a... I'm not even talking about redoing specifically Space Marine too, because I think it does need to tie to Titus a bit. But if you're going to do, like, another Space Marine

game. Imagine if you did a Dark Angels one, imagine where you could go with that, like, in terms of traitors and inquisitors out for you and all sorts of stuff like that. And not only that, obviously, the Primarks come back. So you could have the lion potentially, you know, even if he doesn't appear, you can have some communication like, you know, something going on there. You could have that as well. But where that line of thinking of, okay, if you're going to do some other kind of game like this, this kind of third person action, the same kind of cool, you know, a great vehicle for narrative, etc. We could really do with us sisters of battle game. Imagine.

Imagine. I don't think you really need to sell Bricky on that, right, dude? Well, we had one. It was a VR game and I have not played it, so I'm hoping it's good. That's right. There is a VR game about it, isn't there? I don't have a VR set anymore. Imagine what you could do.

I mean, you know, you can have a character. She starts out as a repensia, you know? Your eyes is through it. Ooh, I like that. You already, like, I already had a game idea based around this. I had an army of two game concept where you, it's a sister and a repentious sister. The two are stuck on the, the planet or whatever. And their main sister doesn't like the repentious sister because obviously.

And no, they're not gay shy. I mean, they can be gay. They want to be gay. They can be gay. I don't know. But that's not part of the game. I don't know, who cares. But it could be.

Faith is more important than sex. But, you know, as you go through it, like, you have the gun sister play more like a third-person shooter, and then the repensia does a bit more like devil may cry melee combat. And then, like, you know, they slowly start to, like, trust each other over the course of the campaign. Very, like, army of two murder-murdery murder-muror. Is it just talking about sister stuff, a thought came into my head because it's really funny. Is it the triumph of St. Catherine? often this is the case when you

Bricky will attest to this when you've read or listened to a lot of 40K at a certain point novels start to blur together anyway the scene in this novel is so funny because it's like they're these sisters

on a world and it's all kind of like going bad as usual or so on and so on but I think some of the local militia or like guard or whatever they kind of like they either wolf whistle or they make some comment to the sororitas as they're passing by.

Oh, no. And I'm like, that seems an extraordinarily bad idea. Yeah, like there couldn't be a, like, if you want to die, there are easier ways to do it. That's funny you mention that because, like, yeah, that sometimes the book's can blur. I don't know, I don't know where this come from. Someone, someone got spread some misinformation. They thought that I played through the campaign of Space Marine 2 while listening to the Horacee book, not.

Oh, I saw somebody say that. Oh. Did you? I don't know where that came from. I listened to it after words because the idea of like listening to Horace Harris Rising while playing a video game for the first time is insanity. Wild. And again, this was one I was going to mention related to Sororitas. I think it's in the Dawn of Fire series.

I think it's Gate of Bones. There's a cool part with a cultist who kind of like progresses, I would say. That would be the thing. It's an interesting setup because we always see cultists, chaos cultists as being these kind of disposable cannon fodder that just are shredded. Like you see that throughout like Space Marine 2, but also just in everything elsewhere, right? They're just kind of like background detritus really, aren't they? Unless it's that chaos sniper cultist, that little piece of shit. That little son of a...

I really enjoy how in Space Marine 2 when you shoot the Colossist, They just like fucking explode. They just like, if I was going to say, punch them and they just like disintegrated to blood. I was playing PVE the other night. I'm pretty sure I literally ran through one. You're just like Atrain. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I imagine it's because Luton, I mean, you've read Dan Amnit books and Aaron Dembski

Bowdoin books and they love doing that thing where they talk about a side character for like a whole chapter and they get really invested and they just like straight kill them. particularly like there's a rogue traitor character in the first night lord novel and i remember being like this is really interesting and he just like he's just like the starty strike cruiser just incinerates him into dust yeah within like the next chapter i'm like oh okay i guess that's done so i can't i think it was i feel like it was in one of the dawn of firebooks again maybe one of the earlier but anyway it's i really love it it's just a cute moment which sounds funny but i'll explain it's just this little mechanicus dude like this little mechanicus surf or like low level tech priest like low level

and he's just i can't remember why but i can't remember why it's relevant but he's in like the bowels of a ship and he's just in some conduit and he's just doing little work and he's like singing himself a little song he's like you know praise be to the omnisaya do do do zero one one one one he's having a lovely day and he's trying to fix this little thing in this conduit that's related to the the engines or whatever, you know, he's like, oh, it's not quite aligned right. I better fix that. And he's just having a super fun time on his own, just down there, just doing what he needs to do. And he's just obviously having a lovely day. And then I think it cuts back to like the captain or whatever. And they're like, oh, we've got to go. Blubber. You know, they've got to go somewhere,

whatever. Powers up the engines. They've established this little dude, like down in this condo of the ship. And then he realized, like, it cuts back or something. And it's like, He realizes like, oh, wait, the ship's powering up. Immediately, like, being mechanicus is like, oh, well, there's no way I'm getting out of here in time. Oh, well, I'll try to finish this anyway, at least, before I get incinerated. And then he just gets them vaporized. Oh, poor little guy. That's really funny.

That's so sad and tragic and funny. What the hell? How many people do you think are going to fall into, like, the tabletop via Space Marine? too. Because if you've never done Warhammer, and this is your first foray, and you play through Space Marine 2, and it's like, whoa, this is just, wow. And then you kind of look at the tabletop. There is a little bit of a disconnect, right? You know, you're kind of expecting that, whoa, action. And it's like, well, there's this tabletop. Don't get me wrong. Tabletop, very cool. But, like, there's a bit of a disconnect, right? I mean, it is kind of funny. Like, I always joke that people are going to

get really excited to buy Revers and then they're going to buy Space Marine Revers and be like, oh, oh, this is worthless. But I don't know. I mean, like, you know, I think it'll definitely get some people. Yeah, it'll get, I think there'll definitely be people who do get into it, no doubt. But it's, I think, yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the hard part, right? It's like, oh, on one hand, I played this, like, grandiose epic games campaign with all this crazy blood and murder.

and then it's like translating that to, okay, hitting on threes. Rolling the dice, right? Yeah, exactly. It's a tough transition. If nothing else as well, I mean, one thing that I always talk about in 40K is the scale

and how it's done badly in the novels. They've tried to improve, I think, over time and it's gotten a bit better. But I've had a big rant about that before where, you know, they'll talk about these gigantic battles in 40K

and they're like, you know, the numbers are like 100,000 guardsmen die. A hundred thousand, geez, like, go look at the, the numbers of casualties in World War II. And it's like, you're in this like, you know, the Imperium of mankind, galactic scale battles. And it's like 100K, what the hell is that?

It's nothing. Like, you know, that's not even a drop in the bucket. Like, well, that's that one where, again, you see the pure horror. Is it in, uh, is it in Valdor, birth of the Imperium where the custodians just enter into the room? And they're just like, it'd be like, a. a Terminator, like a T-1,000, just kind of coming into a room with people who've just got regular weapons. And it's just like not even attempting to avoid the fire coming at it. It just literally is like walking forward like, you're dead, you're dead, you're dead, you're dead, you're dead, you're dead, you're dead,

you're dead, you're dead. And the guardsmen are trying like their best to like, you know, take it down. I try their ultimate best. This guy's not even trying. It's just like, just pasting all of them is. It's shy. For all the kids, the Darth Vader scene in Rogue One. Yeah. Pointing Sooy-Jack meme. Oh, my God, it's Darth Vader. Oh, come on. You can't tell me you didn't love that scene. The scene is done. For me, that scene is a lot like the Calgar scene, where it's like, it kind of does come out of nowhere, but it's kind of badass, so I do like it. Okay, okay,

cool, cool. I was like, oh, we cannot besmirge that scene from Rogue One, where he, like, where he, like, throws the guy on the ceiling, he's stuck there, and still cuts him. and half. Like, that's fucked up, Vader. It is a rule of cool scene where like my mom, but the inside of my mind is still doing a little bit of like the, what is this? But the other part of me is like, okay, this is kind of cool.

Yeah, this is a little bit of that. Are you pleased to see so many new people coming into 40K? Oh, absolutely. I think that's a great thing, sure. Yeah. I mean, I mean, we've been constantly saying that the entire point of our podcast here is to get

people interested so they can go watch your videos, Luton. We're the foot in the door podcast, right? Yeah, and you, before you provide them with, like, complete factual evidence. I've just seen so many, like, I think I said it on one of my videos recently. No, no, no, no. I was going to say, I'd seen on one of my videos recently was just so many, like, big S-tier streamers and YouTubers who are just like, so what's this 40K thing?

And then they're just going on a rabbit hole, and it's just, yeah, really expanding out. like yeah I've seen like you know I'm off the top of my head was like Charlie Moist Critical one of them and he'd just like binge the first game binge this one and was like it's fucking epic I love it it's amazing you know and it's like yeah yeah having figures like that you know with that kind of reach I think that's the thing it's like 40K struggles with reach sometimes I think and it's amazing to me how you see people stumble upon it and go what the heck like why isn't this bigger and you know tabletop wargaming just isn't a very popular thing in the grand scheme of the world.

And like, that's not a bad thing, but no, it's going to be hard to translate. What do you think, Ludin? I think it's true. I think I'm scared to start discussing the current status of the table top game because I feel like you probably have a lot to say. And, you know, it could just go off in an innumerable number of directions with how the state of the miniatures are in terms of things that have been retired and come back, how often the rule updates can.

come recently what certain rule updates there are like the complete you know 10th edition started off what was their tagline for it simple but not simple something something something simplified not simple yeah bullshit like it's they were half right they were half right it was definitely simplified they did a they in the beginning everybody was like cool this this all makes sense it seems much clearer and then the bloody competitive gamers got their foot in the door and it was like yeah, it's shot in the head like everybody

who wanted, like you know, they need to they can't continue trying to do what they do now they can't continue trying to appeal to multiple different groups with the same rule set. It just doesn't make any sense. I mean, I saw some interesting polls, Bricke, on various tabletop gaming channels recently where there's a few people who had done polls of their community

of how often do you play 40k you know it's got to be like like once a month or something right yes yes for the majority of people it's like once a month it's not you know unless you're a competitive person who's going out and playing two days every weekend you know um or you know even more so if you're like maybe doing a tabletop gaming channel i don't know like maybe they're playing multiple games per week and they're so they just know the rules like inside out So rule updates really don't matter. But if you're, you know, me or, you know, and you are literally like, because that's about what I do, I probably play about like once a month.

You probably don't need the granular rule refreshes that they constantly do to be able to just play the game and have fun with it. The same with the law. I mean, another thing I've said, right? Loads of people I see all the time. They're really hyped about Space Marine. They come to me. I've seen comments.

I've had comments. I've had people on my Discord coming to me and saying like, hey, I'm a lot. I just got into things. I've got this so far. I've got this so far. And I've heard about this. I've heard about like, you know, my prime example is always gathering storm.

They're like, oh, I've heard about this gathering storm. Where can I get the books? Yep. Well, bad luck. Bad luck. Unfortunate timing. You're about four years too late. You will not be able to get those anywhere other than eBay.

And the three books will cost you about 150 pounds. That's a question. There's people getting into the hobby in general from Space Marine II. what about people getting back into the hobby? Because a lot of... Oh, like people that maybe dropped out of it for a little bit because maybe they weren't into the tabletop anymore and like Space Marine 2 is like their sort of reawakening

and like resurgence into the hobby? Yeah, I mean like I know a lot of people. I mean, this is kind of where we had a bit of a disconnect when it came to our thoughts on the game. I know a lot, I know a lot of people who weren't super big into the game, we saw, got to see like crazy Space Marine bros doing Space Marine things. And that was like, you know, that's all they wanted from it. And for them, it's like the coolest game ever.

And I'm curious if that's, if that was like, because I know a lot of people who started playing Warhammer back in, say, fifth edition or before that, they, the idea that they would get a game like Space Marine 2 with this level of production quality is like unheard of, right? That's basically what I said in my. overview you see um like bricky i watched your um discussion about the game um and i genuinely find the difference of opinion really interesting because i think even you i think even you yourself was sort of had your thoughts that you gathered but then were sort of like almost looking outside yourself at your opinion and going wait a minute you know and sort of i don't know that's

the impression i got because you sort of discussing about why you were feeling a certain way. And if it's because you were kind of too close to the fire, almost, as it were. Do you know what I mean? Like, and it's a little bit. A little bit. Yeah.

No, you're correct. It was definitely one of those things where I feel like, yeah, my prior expectations definitely had a bit of a thought process in there. More than, more than it probably should have. And I do, I'm making a follow up video because I'm already over 100 hours into space screen too.

I think the thing that I said was was that, you know, it didn't get like a perfect rating for me. It was pretty high. Like I gave it eight out of ten. But the reason I sort of gave it such a good score from my mind was like the flaws that were there didn't detract for me from my expectation. So it was like the PPP. and I don't want to play it and I tried it and was like, but it's irrelevant. It's completely irrelevant to what I wanted to get out of the game. I can just literally forget it exists forever and it will not affect my opinion of the game in any way. Similarly, the resolution

of the tyrannid's things. And again, Bricky, this is another thing. Like when you're so deep into law, I find anyway, especially with 40K, I spend so much time speculating and thinking and thinking that when a question is unanswered in 40K, I can pretty reasonably rationalize it in my mind of like, oh, well, probably this is what happened, you know? So I'm not saying, I'm not saying, though, that that is necessarily acceptable for everybody, because I'm certain that many people either don't do that or just, that's just not how they approach things. They like things to be resolved and tidied up. But I'm definitely one of those people where if a movie, for example, is just open-ended, I kind of like it. I like it. I like it. Because it's

gives me thoughts at the end of like, well, what about this or what about this? And try to come to the most rationalized sort of logically reasonable solution. But, but I, but you know, again, I do agree. The sorcerer in the game, you know, who the hell is he? Why does he matter? Yeah, a lot of, a lot of lack of that kind of stuff. I like open-ended stuff a lot, but normally the open-ended thing kind of goes along with like, with the narrative, other things are concluded in a way.

I know what you mean though What a critique is for me It may not be a critique for you Yeah For me it is a little bit of a Kind of like a more of a meta thing Where I look at it and I'm like Well they they advertise like the space

I don't the space brain The um the tyrannid like big hive mechanic Where they all kind of jumbled together And stuff like that and it's kind of such a big deal And it does kind of feel like they're just like left off halfway through And then they never use that mechanic with like you know The Thousand Suns and then you just kind of move on, you know.

But there's that little part of my brain that can't reconcile that. And that's my character flaw. Speaking of, I want to read one of a Shies thing, because I think it's actually a pretty good, a pretty good, like, metric to judge by. I think our, quote, I think our main mistake is that we made our review episode for ourselves, not so much Warhammer fans or our fans. We talked about what we expected and wanted, but not what the Warhammer fans at large expected it wanted.

So while we all kind of like stand by our opinions, I think, there is a good point to step back and like, you know, let the new fans get impressed by the game and old 40K fans get back into it because it is true. At the end of the day, this is a game that is like the closest we've ever got to anything genuine of like Warhammer in the larger mainstream and they did do it pretty well. Really well, yeah. So we did get a bit up our own ass and that was one of the things I think I think I left out a lot and that's one of the reason why I'm doing a follow-up thing is because I want to talk about more of the positives, because I think I was a little overly negative, and I'd like to kind of talk about, like, example, the guard are represented so

incredibly well in this game. Oh, yeah. Love the guard. I feel, I feel weird leaving D.K. out of this conversation, but D.K. really liked the game, and I didn't give him enough time to speak in our episode, because it was me, me, me, Kerioth and shy being like, man, this was not it. And D.K. was like, damn, I really enjoyed myself. You know, sometimes you might need to take a little bit and remember like, no, you still like this game. And if you like the game, it's probably better to put a lot more effort into understanding how to, what is it, deliver proper, adequate praise versus criticism depending on the bits. I still stand by. I think the story is still pretty damn mid, but like, I did like a lot of it. And I feel like I didn't put enough time into talking

about that stuff. So it's important to show that off, you know? I think it's so dear fair. I just think that for me, it was not necessarily something which heavily detracted from the overall game for me. Like it didn't make me come out of it at the end and go, oh man, that sucked like, oh, so disappointing. You know, I came out of the game thinking like, damn, yeah, that was a baller game. I absolutely loved it, you know, and that's despite me thinking Calgar's absolutely boring. Like, to be fair as well, Calgar standing at the end of the Thunderhawk just shooting down, that was a pretty epic entrance it was cool it was a cool

yeah however I will raise you Tigourius stepping out from that Thunderhawk jumping off onto the ground and just vaporizing everything in visible distance with like a psychic storm I think that would be you know

considerably more epic for me I just wanted Calgary to be in the game in the beginning they should have they could have just undermined the entire game by just having Calgarpe at the end and do another Lord of Skulls and just rip Imra's head off. Yes, yes.

He just jumps out the Thunderhawk onto the greater demon and he's just like, the Lord has changed. It's like, bang, problem solved. The giant Lord of Change is, Khm. Luton, I've changed my mind. I think I know a different way that we can make Calgar worse. Actually, speaking of that, we never even got to... I can fix it.

We never even got to kind of me outlining why the ultramarines are good either. We didn't get to that. I could go over that very briefly for you. Oh, this is going to be brief? Yeah, yeah, it will be brief to be fair. Because the ultramines are actually relatively straightforward, I think, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me. Yeah.

Or us. Yeah, well, before I even speak about it, just briefly, like what is the thing? Like we said at the beginning, you guys maybe just have only the, I guess, the sort of ultramarine's veneer perspective. perhaps, you know, right? Like, it's just the box art guys, always the, you know. Yeah, they're the poster boys of 40K, right? I can't even remember.

We've learned a little bit more lately, I think, but yeah. So, I mean, but obviously you know about what happened in the heresy with the Ultramarines. They didn't make it to terror. Yeah, because Calth, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Calth and the ruined storm, okay? You obviously never.

Go Aribus. Yeah. And then Imperium Secondus and all this stuff. So short version is the ultramarines couldn't get to terror in time. They were cut off. The word bearers attacked them. They got stuck there. Then the Imperium Secundus, they couldn't travel through the warp.

And so Gilliman thought, Gilman legitimately thought, what happens if Horace destroys terror? And, you know, again, this is where the law versus the memory irritates me sometimes. Because, you know, yes, I casually betrayed the emperor. it's funny but it annoys me sometimes because it's like it's actually if you if you approach the law like I do with like a modicum of seriousness it's like Gilliman's thinking is totally reasonable you know if the emperor has been destroyed and terror is crushed he needs to try and make something of what he can to try and perhaps pull together whatever loyalists are left create some kind of secondary thing which is going to be able to continue the fight, however, misguided. Nonetheless, when it became apparent that was not the case, Gilliman erased,

like, urgently all records and was like, yeah, that never happened. That was not a thing. But the thing was, what changed, though, I for the longest, longest time, was, even as somebody who is an Ultramarines player, because, like I've told innumerable, times now. I got into the Ultramarines not because I chose them as such. I was a kid when I first started in 40K and I just picked the Ultramarines because I like the color and they were one of the chapters that were not being played by my friends. So I was like, oh yeah, cool, ultramarines, whatever, you know, like I kind of like the colors of them and stuff like that. They're chapter colors and the bright yellow trim on their shoulder plates and stuff like that. But for, yeah, for the

very longest time, even though you had the story in White Dwarf about Gilliman and all these kind of things, they didn't have some of the interest that like the dark angels had or the blood angels had and so on. They didn't have that kind of interest. What was the thing that defines them? And it isn't really until you get the perspective of the heresy that I think you get what defines them, which is this crushing feeling of like responsibility that they failed basically. They failed. They couldn't get to terror on time.

And like, to be fair, like many other loyalists, they still. feel this crushing weight of humiliation that they were unable to save the emperor. They couldn't intervene, they couldn't bring it. Imagine, I mean, and even Horace and the traitors were extremely worried about Gilliman arriving because of the sheer massive scale of the ultramarines. Because again, this is the other thing. I don't know if I always say people forget, but it's not people forget. I think sometimes it's just not referenced enough that people are even aware of it,

that the legions were like pretty wildly different in their numbers because they were huge they hadn't been cut down to a thousand yet and that's right so you had massive legions not chapters right legions no i think i think do you mean lutena like is that like ultramarines and stuff have like a huge way more than like word bearers and stuff right hundreds and hundreds of thousands more startes like yeah oh ridiculous numbers like like like it like absolutely massive. I'd have to go and just look at, again, I didn't carry these in my head. I'd have to go and look it up, but the Ultramarines were like way, way bigger. And it's because they had a really stable gene seed, unlike others who didn't and were just not particularly able to easily get new recruits in. And also, you know, Gilemon is not Angron. So, like, you know. He keeps them alive. Yeah. He keeps the guys. alive and also

well yeah I mean there's literally examples of the world eaters just throwing themselves at enemy and getting slaughtered but they're just like send them or in like you know they're just going to overwhelm them with weight of numbers but yeah you know Gilliman is pragmatic logical he thinks

about things he has amazing ability to structure and order his legion and the the Ultramar and everything like that so basically they were extremely successful in creating U.S. Artis and, yeah, keeping them alive and all this kind of stuff. So they end up with the Legion, which is absolutely massive. So if the Ultramarines had got to terror, it would have been all over, like, easily. And that's why the traitors very, very much

wanted that not to happen, which is what they managed to do. Anyway, so imagine, imagine knowing that. Imagine being the Ultramar Marines, knowing that. Imagine knowing you had everything you needed to stop it from happening and you failed you failed the only thing you know the only time when it really mattered and you catastrophically failed because you couldn't get there and I'm pretty sure basically that's what defines the ultramarines it haunts them and that's why one of my favorite banners of the ultramarines which appears in one of the codexes it's it's from it's like a i think it's like a third company banner or something but it's to do with the behemoth uh assault of the tyrantes and and so on and so on, El McCrague, the actual tyrannid part is irrelevant. The space marine is holding

a little banner and on the banner it says, our presence remakes the past. And that kind of tells you everything you need to know about the ultramarines. Their behavior as the kind of straight as an arrow sort of space marines is because in their mind they are attempting to be the kind of lynchpin for all the other Astartees. They want to be the model by which others base themselves upon because they want to be reliable and stalwart and they want to basically do what they didn't do in the heresy, which is, you know, prevent chaos from overwhelming everything. And they do that by maintaining order and discipline and structure and, you know, making everything

as stable as possible. And that's basically what it is. And I think along with that, they carry this huge guilt around with them that they failed horribly and it's you know that's their way of interpreting and sort of displaying that so i think the ultramarines are kind of cool if you think about it from that point of view um yeah they they get a lot of crap thrown at them but i but i think actually there's a kind of sadness in it in along with other things which is you know yeah they're sort of looked at as being boring and blah blah blah blah but actually i think they're just they're pragmatic which is how gillerman is and in some respects like

we were saying earlier right bricky um you know gilliman hi it's me Gileman, he's a really interesting character. He's cool, like the fact that he's willing to listen to just ordinary humans, unlike so many Astati's who are just like, get this peasant out of my face. It's beneath me, yeah, yeah, yeah. And his way of dealing with things is so much more relatable and cool and interesting. And it's like, that's kind of how the ultramarines are. And if they weren't, they will be now, now that he's back and so on and so on.

And I think the other last thing that I would say is also I always reference that I always think about like Aonid Thiel. Do you remember Aonid Thiel? I'm not familiar with that name, no. Nope. Thiel was like an ultramarine. He's the guy who got censured at Calth. Basically, he was an ultramarine. He was aboard one of the ships when the world bearers attacked and everything like that.

And he had been censured for basically ultramarine. always have this thing of like theoretical and they're encouraged to speculate about things they need to do or what they need to do basically gillerman like planning everything right make plans calculate what you need to do ahead of time and so for thiel like he had actually raised the possibility of heresy before it even came upon so he had been saying hey look what if other space marines attack us at some point and he basically got censured for that which is basically like he got sort of

I don't know penalty or whatever because he obviously even suggesting that was like how dare you even suggest such a thing yeah exactly and so he got censured and censure was where they would paint their helmet red as like a disgrace basically

but then when the word bearers attacked at Calth demons were everywhere as well at the time on the ships. And he had been waiting to speak to Gullumann, I think, because he'd been censured for suggesting this possibility. Because basically what he had said was, look, if other legions attack us at some point, we need to be ready to deal with that. And therefore we need to think about how we're going to do that because they know us. They know how we are going to respond. So we need to think about doing something different. And he was

instrumental in Calh because he basically was like, look, if we go in there and behave like ultramarines, the word barriers are going to destroy us because they know exactly what we're going to do. So he was like, we need to be different. We need to be more brutal. We need to behave more unrelenting. We need to just, you know, not retreat, charge head along into them, even if we're taking massive losses, you know, because they won't expect it and it will overwhelm them. And that's kind of his sort of thinking was how they managed to sort of survive that scenario. So it's just another interesting character, you know. So you guys are idiots. They're going to be looking for army guys.

Yeah. But the other thing was... I think that's kind of interesting that like the ultramarines, like, because I've always looked at them as like the perfect little schoolboys that like, even with all of their wins and their perfections, all they think about is that one time that they failed. I feel like that's genuinely true. I feel like it must be a constant thing which haunts them. Yeah.

Because think about it, like, as a space marine, you're taught to obviously understand all this history of your chapter and the Legion and the, you know, all the events of the Astartis through the heresy probably as well. And so they will 100% know that that is the case and carry that around with all the time. And, you know, think about it. Stare cross to bear, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, not unlike obviously others. Well, yeah, again, but I mean, obviously not unlike other Astati's obviously also that were around. the siege of terror as well.

So, I mean, to be fair, I don't think it's only the altruines. All the loyalists obviously carry that same guilt that they were unable to stop it from happening. But I think what's different for me, what's different is that, you know, whereas like the imperial fists or the white scars or blood angels, they were had sort of like localized reasons why they couldn't defend the emperor. you know there was there was so much happening there and they were they'd suffered like massive losses and all that kind of thing the ultramines really hadn't the ultramarines if that's why i say if the ultramines had been able to get to terror everything would have been theoretically fine you know they

would have just annihilated all the traitors um yeah and that's what they did in the scouring you know which is largely led by the ultramarines like afterwards um so yeah yeah it's just kind of interesting and i think that's why they carry it with them perhaps more than others because others were kind of like, well, we did our best, damn it, you know, but we're at Terra. Yeah, yeah. We were on the front lines of Terra. We were fighting chaos, whereas the Ultramarines are like, we didn't even see them. We didn't even take part in it.

We were stuck and, yeah. So I imagine it does probably stick in the Ultramarines crawled. But I love that saying. Yeah, and I love that saying, and I've inscribed it on some of my miniatures, like on the tanks and stuff, like our presence remakes the past. Because that's epic to me. That's really awesome. It's this idea of, by.

simply existing in the contemporary Imperium, they're making up for the fact of where they failed. And that's why they are how they are, because they don't want to end up like the Templars. You know, they don't want to be, they don't want to be like that. They want to be consistent and stable so they can make up for the shortcomings in the past. Anyway, that's basically the Ultramarines for me. And so it's not particularly complicated, I don't think, but I think it, I don't know, have I sold you? Does it make you think about it any differently? I don't know. I think a little bit actually. Like, you know, like, I mean, like I'm trying to shake off the

ultra-rain bias from all the memory. And, you know, having like that one catastrophic failure be like just this like massive cross that they just have to like, yeah, it's just at their very core is like, we have to be better because, oh my God, we made the biggest oopsie-poopsy ever is just like you know I get it now like I kind of I kind of get it for me it's

it's that's always good but I also like I have a lot of respect for the baseline because there has to be one right sure there's always the main the main base and I think as far as ultramarines go they might

not be the most interesting to me I mean the reason I like the night lord so much is because they're maybe the farthest from a space marine you can get. They're just like horrible gangsters. And that's one of the reasons I appreciate it. But there has to be the baseline. Same thing with like the Cadians.

You know, there always has to be like the one that goes, what is the most space marine space marine that there can be? And I can very easily be like ultramarines. If you want the pure understanding of what an Astardis is supposed to be like, you can point to the ultramarines. And Shai makes a good point as well that some of the writers have added damage to Ultramine reputation over time

At one point GW wrote Codex Ultramarines but changed it to Codex Space Marines at the last minute So it's insanely ultramarine focused And they also added literal lines of text About how all Space Marines envy Ultramines Look Up to them and so on and so on So that's obviously going to make everybody annoyed If it's sort of minimizing

and diminishing their own sort of chapter as well Well thanks so much for taking the time coming out and doing this with us was extremely cool of you man yeah super appreciate it yeah if you ever need me to carry you in space marine two pvp let me know I'm always around

I'm sure it'll be great and uh maybe the PVE right maybe the PVE I think I think next time if I come back again we need to be discussing about the word bearers or the night lords I think I would do

I would love to talk about the word bearers I think they're super underrated. I used to call them the dad chaos faction because only people who have read enough Horace heresy books

and can understand the word bearers enough like them. So I look, I'm not trying to besmirch word bears but you were given an opportunity to be like, oh, night lords are word bears

and you didn't immediately night lords out. All right. So, D.K., after my reviews of Space Marine 2, I'm teaching myself restraint and understand of what the people want.

And you know what? It's time. It's time. I've said enough about my faction. Let's talk about something different. I'm locked in a room with Horace, Abadon, and Arabis. And I have a gun with two bullets. I commit a sternonautus on Arabis twice.

Twice. Twice. Anyway. Yeah. Anyway, Luton, shut yourself out, man. I'm sure people know you already. But do the Luton pleasantries, you know, for the hell of it. Why not?

Shai saying they haven't read End of the Death, they don't know what Erebus did. Did he do more? Well, what else can he do? Well, how can he possibly get worse? How can he get worse? You'll have to read it. Ah. That's not shouting yourself out, Luton.

That's not shouting yourself out at all. Where can they find you? You can find me on YouTube at Lutin 09. Perfect. You did it. Hell yeah. You did it. I mean, we never shout ourselves out at the end of the video. We just like to make other people do it.

We used to, but then we just stopped caring. Yeah, then we just say whatever, you know. You know where to find us. You know our names. Unironically, thanks a ton for being here, man. Always appreciate it. Always lots of insight that I think we can all use in our time with our Warhammer world. Desire insight.

Well, that's the British. I can't blame you for that one. Yeah, but it's always good entertaining dry insight. Like, it's never like a boring, like, you know, it's good. Sometimes the madness, if you approach it more seriously, it's even more fun. That's what I always think. True. Join us next week for when D.K. tells me about dwarves in fantasy,

and I accidentally call the Ultramarines the wrong shade of blue on this next week's episode of Adeptus Ridiculous. See you next time. See you next time.