Adeptus Ridiculous - Where Are the Skaven in 40k? Fantasy Factions in 40k feat. PancreasNoWork

Episode Date: September 20, 2025

https://www.patreon.com/AdeptusRidiculoushttps://www.adeptusridiculous.com/https://twitter.com/AdRidiculoushttps://shop.orchideight.com/collections/adeptus-ridiculousPancreasNoWork joins Bricky, Dk and Shy to discuss Warhammer fantasy, 40k and Age of Sigmar - how Games Workshop transfers various races between their properties and why they erase some factions entirely.Support the show

Welcome everybody to the realm of ridiculous. The special episode where we talk about Warhammer Fantasy, which is like Warhammer 40K, but old. Before we get started, head on over to patreon.com slash Adeptus Ridiculous, where you can get yourself access to bloopers, which may have happened, access to the Discord, posters that involve a certain particular hornet-based person.

Don't worry about that one. It's very, very important. You'll find it very soon. And so on. Also, don't forget, You're having a massive sale at Orchidate.com. Link in the description for the Adeptus Ridiculous Part. That will allow you to get up to 20% off the store if you buy multiple items,

as well as a free mature pine pouch if you order 100 bucks or more. It only is until the end of September, so you only have a little bit time left. Also read the book about the sharks. Carcarodons. Carcarodons. Today, D.K. you brought a friend. Ah, well, I don't know if I brought him, but he definitely showed up.

And we appreciate that he showed up. Why did he show up? Yeah, pancreas, no work. Why did you show up? I just kind of show up out of the ground like a little rat whenever someone mentions Warhammer fantasy. It's like a Bloody Mary, but more, I don't know, more grimy. Do you like Bloody Marys? I like drinks.

I mean, yes, sir. Fair opinion. We hear do enjoy our drinks. There's a, it's, I think I could probably list the things I'm not a fan of quicker than the things I enjoy. Malort is a plague on the earth. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's, that's a tough one. That is very, very true.

I, uh, I'm, I was once given a bunch of shots of, um, Sambuka. Oh, no. A British gentleman. He was like, I sure do love this. black licorish liquor and and then I was like damn 1776 looking real sick right now it's

four hurricanes in an hour is a magical way to think you have something incredibly wrong with you when it comes back out red did you do you ever a four loco drinker my friend no but I've invented something called

the fire corona fireball ultra okay oh wow Before we even begin this episode, I need to hear about this one. So it's quite simple. You take some corona light, some fireball and some monster energy Zero Ultra, you put it together, and then you drink it. And it tastes like, ouch. It doesn't hurt, but it tastes and then you die, correct?

Wow. Tastes like ouch is a lovely phrase. Oh, I was going to say. You're never going to know it. you've taken cinnamon whiskey with cheap light beer and mixed in an energy drink. And it's like my brain is scrambled just thinking about it, like, let alone drinking it. You got to have the uppers with the doubters. You got to have the accelerant and the depressant in the same gulp, right?

You ever been wide awake? That's how I try to start my days, you know. I get a large cold brew coffee and add three shots of Bailey's. Yeah, you ever have been wide awake? staring and editing software wishing for sleep and death dude nope

thank you haven't thank god for me thank god for shy that was me when I was editing the first of the every faction explained videos because those took like a good 48 hours of like logged time each

and I was just like all right and then here's the 40th Ken Burns effect the left hand side this time because we got to keep moving because if we don't, we lose the viewers. Oh, really? Look at the keys. Look at the keys.

Jingle, jingle. But, um, Mr. Pancreus, no work. Mr. Colin, sir, um, welcome to the episode of Romo Vidiculous. Uh, how have you been? I've been doing very well, busy, but, you know, good busy. Uh, has been overall the last few weeks of my life. I'm pretty, pretty content and I'm happy to be here.

Hell yeah. That's what we like to hear. Positiveity. I even, specifically to you, D.K., I held myself back. I've only brought one horrific thing to say about feet. Oh, great. After you were. I was going to say, for anyone that didn't know, the last time I was invited to lore crimes,

it was a great time. That being said, they, surprise, you're doing a tier list on, Warhammer Feet, which... Is that what the lore crimes one was that you went on? I didn't see it, man. Is that what you went over there to do? Yeah, it sure is, brother. I was... I was ranking Warhammer Feet with the best of them. Where was the Lady of the Lake?

Oh, S-tier. That was the first thing that was thrown at them. It was our thumbnail, too. Despite the fact that that is a... So, so, okay, what's up with this Bretonian thing? I, you know, it's, it's a very, it's, you know, it's a deep history. Would you like the cope first or the cope last? Ooh, let's start off with the cope. Yeah, yeah. Are we, is, is this, like, do we have to be nicer to Britonia due to the release of the critically acclaimed game Exhibition 33? No.

No. Okay, good. Just making sure about that one. Continue. we'll do cope last Oh, we'll do Coal last. Yeah, okay. The non-cope is that you know, Warhammer, it takes a lot of inspiration from a lot of things, right?

Which, you know, nothing inherently wrong with that. Usually, though, there's some little extra spice to go with it. Like, the Empire of Man, you know, it's the Holy Roman Empire, but how does the Holy Roman Empire act in a world with magic and monsters that tickles

my history brain. I'm intrigued. I would like to know more. And then you go to Bretonia and it's like, all right, King Arthur. I'm like, all right, all right. As a good start, knights are cool. What do you, what else do you got for me? And then the writers of Britonia look at me blinking each eye one at a time. Like, what do you mean? What else do we have for you? Like, all right. So that's, that was it, huh? That's, this is, we've reached the pinnacle of what you have. Okay. Good, good. All right. So what's the...

They have a lady of the lake. They have a green night. It is the most on the nose thing ever. You didn't even get to filing the serial number off that you just left it on. With a blinking light pointing at it. Yeah. I'm not going to lie. I don't know why, but for some reason, I think the color scheme of Bretonium in my mind made me think they were French.

And then I just said exhibition 33 because I was thinking of like blue, red, and white. That's okay, it's an amazing game. It's on your mind. That's fine. Don't worry about it. It is a very good game. It's like the worst of France and England put together. That's accurate. Yeah. This is a fascinating scenario. What's the cope then? The cope is when I first started modding total war, I played a game, and one of the mods added a bunch of, like, lore characters as lords that can be on the map. and one of them, for some ungodly reason,

started with an army full of late game units. So I'd roll up turn one with my funny little goblins. And then I would restart turn one about ten times because I kept getting stomped in the face with horses. I didn't appreciate that. That made me feel inadequate as a man, inadequate as a total war player. I felt small.

and now cut to four, you know, however long I've been doing this later and I, uh, I've still not gotten over it. Oh, oh, so this is the cope for the hatred, not the cope that there could be something more about them. Oh, no, this is me, you know, just coping and molding and, you know, just just, just full on just being baby mad upset. You know that you can make a good point, shy. This does remind me of, uh, playing eighth edition Warhammer. and going to my first tournament with guard and then fighting Eldar that had minus three to hit. And there was no cap on not a fires.

So I was hitting on sevens. And the Guard army could not hit them at all. Sounds like classic. Classic elf stuff. And I was like, damn, I sure do hate Eldar. And that has never left me today. Until now where I'm like, Aspect Warriors are very cool. Everyone's got something to draw you in.

I have to admit, nights are cool, you know. They are. It's just, man, like, at least make it not as obvious that you copied the homework. Right?

Like, please, like, you even put their name in the name column. Like, just come on, man. It'd be like the turquoise night or something,

like just the slightest amount of work. Yeah. Like, Lady of the Canal or something. Like, come on. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. The, um, okay, so I know one thing that like consistently extremely aggravates our viewers is my lack of knowledge on history. You know, just like, yeah, just like old school history. I know for like, I know many of people are not happy with that because, uh, I just don't know a lot of it. Are you, are you a general history buff, Colin? Does that help a lot with your understanding of fantasy? Because I feel like, despite the fact that a lot of,

of 40K culture is most definitely a major part of a lot of factions, but the history, a little less so. But for fantasy, it seems like it's a much more heavily satirized version of things like that. It definitely does help. It is, you know, it has admittedly been a minute for me since I've like properly read some historical documents that kind of, that kind of went with the teaching. But the general blob of background knowledge I still have is, you know, it's pretty helpful with, you know, like I said, look at the empire. I'm like, you're the, I know what you are. You're the Holy Roman Empire. I can, I know where I'm at. I know, I know what to expect out of you now, which is a lot of German infighting. Hell yeah. Or when. Those emperors love to kill each other.

It's great. Or when I go down, you know, you go down south in the setting and it's like, yes, here's. Here was an entity known as the Reiman Empire. And I'm like, all right. Somehow even less creative than Britonia, you just went with the other twin from the myth. Sick. See, I don't even know what the Reiman Empire is. Oh, well, it's some background lore blurb that means nothing. But it made me go, it like Rome.

It, and that's as far as I got. Wait, wait a minute. Wait, wait, when you said, is it really called the Reiman Empire? Yes. Yes, that it is a thing. I thought, I thought, I, in my brain, I was like, well, he can't possibly be talking about the Roman Empire, because that's too close.

It's Reamon's too close. Like, they wouldn't, they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that. My beloved Games workshop, they wouldn't do this. They wouldn't. No, no, never, never. Sometimes it's not even that good. I think there was a, I forget, it was the,

guy who found like lustria and in the new world but it was it's like Polo Columbo or something Marco Columbo Yeah it's yeah There we go

Yep My Has anyone made of James horse shop? I love it Do you. Of him like like as a detective before

because I got I got to get my Colombo memes going with that one There's one last thing Mr. Mazda Muna one last thing mr. Setra rattles off every single name oh my god he shall not kneel that man is dripped out I didn't know he had art damn Marco Columba I mean if you if you showed me that picture and I had no history of like Warhammer and I think man that looked kind of like Christopher Columbus that's what I think he looked like yeah I think I might have heard seen this fellow before

somewhere. I must be imagining it. Yeah, I learned about him at school. What the hell? We do have a mini. What are Marco Columbo's rules? Like, what? Oh, yeah,

that's a sentence. That's a real sentence. Didn't think I'd be saying that this morning, but here we are. I hope they're O.P. as hell. You know, the moment Marco Colombo has playable rules is when I get

Obi-Wan Sherlock Costau as his own rules to go along with it. Do you think it's like the three it's like the three stooges getting through like a door but for copyright? Like they're just trying to, if all of the lawyers come to serve them at once, like they'll just

they can't get into GW offices. I thought you're going to say they can't get into heaven. Well, that's an entirely different problem, but yeah. No, that's for, for their pricing. Yeah. The,

I got it, I mean, I feel it's, it's funny because you can, you can clearly feel the old era of games workshop with some of the stuff when they were, hi, it's me,

GW. I'm tiny miniature company. So I get to be extremely blatant with the stupidity of our naming sequences and no one cares because we're so small. And now like, uh, oh, we're big.

We're big now. Everyone's, yeah, we're big. And we never changed Marco Columbus. Oh, shit, what do we do? What do we do? I think that's, I'm sure that's one estate. They don't need to worry about them coming after them.

Probably not. The Columbus bloodline is famed for its seasoned assist letters. You know, I will say the, you know, this is much better than their, Ronald Reagan, Nancy Regan, Margaret Thatcher miniatures. Oh, did you have any of you all seen the,

it's Ronald Reagan shaking hands with a dwarf? No, but I might have seen. It's so. It is, it is the best image I've ever seen. It's from like an old white dwarf, like, thanking Ronald

Reagan for tariffs or something. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh, man. The, I mean, like, I shy cannot. Oh, my God. There it is. Beautiful.

Oh, my God. Wow. I mean, I, shy, you can't share this one, but, I'm assuming games workshop did not much like Ronald Reagan. Due to the miniatures they had in their 1980s function. Oh. Oh, wow. We're going to need to blur of these, but... My God.

Speaking of debased history. Yeah. Oh, man. True art. We're such a small little company. No one's ever going to look back at this, right? I mean, they certainly are doing their best to keep that down. Rightfully so.

Holy, it's so funny. What is the dwarf image looking? kind of like the image of like Michael Scott. The younger version of him shaking the hand of a superior. Oh yeah, I was thinking the same thing where he's like clueless as to why he's getting a promotion. Yeah, I mean,

I mean, they're not clueless looking, but like it has the same kind of energy. Yeah, yeah, what we're here for again? Oh, yeah.

40K, 40K and like fantasy stuff. Pachryas, you are primarily a fantasy guy. Are you, are you at all, Sigma guy, are you mainly old world? I do some age of Sigmar stuff.

I do, I do appreciate the setting. If nothing else that every new mini that comes out of it is like, oh man, the model team was cooking. Yeah, it must be nice. But I do like a lot of the lore. It's, uh, it's, it's shy as, you got, you got me. He just likes it because all of the Tonians are dead. It's great.

Damn, cotton 4K. holy. They can't hurt me anymore. No Pegasus Night Turn 1 charge can touch me in Age of Sigma. No, I like it too. Definitely more so fantasy. I like my not Earth planet with my funny history references. Yeah, totally not Earth, totally not a basically a, you know, map of the globe, map of Earth. Totally not the our continents or anything, right?

drawn by someone currently tweaking out. Yeah. It's not Earth. It's malice. Come on. Someone said like a really, a really mean statement, but it makes me,

I think of it often, which is like, Adam Driver looks like someone who tried to draw Keanu Reeves from memory. I had never heard that. Oh, no. That's so fucked up.

It's a very, it's very mean and not fair. Oh, no. But I think about, um, the math. the same way. Like someone tried to draw the earth from memory, or

on like a line or two. Yeah. I looked at a picture of a globe once, I got this. I mean, you know, Rogel Dorn would poop in a vault. Like, hey man, games workshops been all up and down the place.

In the grand scheme of things, some funky looking borders ain't that bad. Yep, yep, definitely. I guess one of the things that we came here to chat about actually originally was the various kind of adjustments between 40K and fantasy and some of the factions. Because obviously I'm not particularly fantasy-pilled. I'm a very sci-fi heavy guy. But at the same time, it's kind of a, it's kind of a silly phrase to say because one of the things we

were talking about when we were filming yesterday with Rebecca Ford from Warfram was the discussion of like fantasy element, fantasy basically being all sci-fi. And the more sci-fi you become, the more it turns back into fantasy, the horseshoe. And I mean, a lot of Warhammer, especially 40K, is just a, is a sci-fi code of paint on a base fantasy setting. And because of that, I guess one of the things I was kind of curious about was, as the factions have been translated over, because has there been a 40K faction translated into fantasy or has it all been fantasy to 40K? to my knowledge it's mostly been fantasy into 40k there was some things with the orcs

that kind of got backported into fantasy because way back when it was a lot closer to d and d like there were like half orcs stuff like that as opposed to them all being funny mushroom people but then eventually the you know the mushroom guys definitely became more popular and that turned

around into like going back to fantasy. I mean, the mushroom guys are pretty popular. We do like that. I do like my, my spore people. It is, it is fun. Although, uh, they try to do like a backport and that's why they had what Calgar go backwards, sort of maybe into fantasy and do some shenanigans or something.

I don't remember which, oh, Drago, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get, I get my blueberries mixed up all the time. I, I can, I don't know. He's silver. Oh. He's a great night.

I don't know what I'm talking about then. That little thing has been all over the place, because I think what it was written, it was very much supposed to be Caldor Drago. And I don't remember where it was, but they eventually turned it around and was like that was a stormcast eternal who just got, I don't know if he was there on purpose or if he just got very lost and transported himself a reality ago. but I think that was Caldor Drago, and then they were like, uh, no, that's too funny. We got to take it out.

Oh, really? I, I've been spreading misinformation then. Couldn't be me. It was, it would never spread misinformation online. That's illegal.

Oh, yeah, totally. You wouldn't, you wouldn't download a codex PDF, would you? No. Also,

I wish I said, I guess funny, funny example of this, when they tried to backport dwarves from fantasy to 40K, and they failed at first attempt, and had to kill off the squads, ironically, because they were too generic. They tried, and then the tyrannids exist to eat GW's mistakes,

so there they into the mouth. Yeah, poor squads. Yeah, but I will say the Voton do kind of rock. I love them a lot. And stone? And stone. And stone. Yeah.

My guy, my guy. Let's go. It's just bouncing around like a cup on the street. Yep, yep. Ping. Pong. Nobody's going to get that, but that's fine. I'm going to say,

DK, you played Deep Rock Galactic like one time. What are you? Shai, you dragged me into playing that game like, well, in the distant past, multiple times. You know, I was, originally against you DK, but you said that with such confidence, I'm with you now. Hell yeah. I've

played it many times, not to success, and I'm terrible at it, but, you know, you know. Just hit the taunt button, that's all you need to do. You've done your part. Get drunk, and then, of course, get sucked by the big suck tongue that dragged you to the wall. All your friends

ignore you, you die, and then you start cursing everyone, right? That's any multiplayer game. That sounds about it. That sounds about right. That's how I felt like when I was playing white knuckle. It's a, you should play white knuckle. It's a very good game. It's a very good game.

Don't worry about it. But anyway, okay, so backporting, yeah, not a ton. Not a ton from there. I mean, it mainly seems like front facing the two, kind of going forward. But I guess, because, like, obviously the Voton coming out is the newest, like, main faction makes sense. They took dwarves, and then they just turned them into, like, extremely capitalistic merchant guilds.

And then you got the Voton. I'm not sure how much you know about the Voton, Colin. Perpetually feel, I don't know, it's the Voton and GW brought back the squats to a resounding okay. So I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I know a decent amount,

but that's not because I've done a lot of reading about the Voton. It's because I've read three paragraphs of lore, and I think that's about all they have. Yeah. There's like a new book coming out soon, but yeah. I've read through their codex, and I'm like, what else you got from EGW? I like dwarfs.

I'm interested. What is, you hate Britonians. What is your favorite fantasy faction? I'm not a fantasy content watcher because I like to make sure that DK, you know, gives me completely, you know, raw and spread out, spread open. Nope, don't like that. I do not want that. Nope, but go on.

So I'm not quite sure what your favorite faction is. I feel the most realistic answer is it varies based on who I'm yapping about at a given moment. But if I had to reliably pick, elves are definitely up there shy, but I have to give it to the Skaven. The funny rat people, it never fails to bring me joy when they show up at a book. That's cheating. I mean, that that is true. If you're at all in the fantasy, chances are Skaven are one of if not your favorites. It's hard not to.

They're the best. You can't not like the Skaven. It's everyone's favorite race. Yeah, but it's like, you know, it's like saying, oh, everyone likes breathing air. Like, yeah, of course. Of course. They are the best. I would agree.

I would say Skaven's probably my favorite too because, God, they're just so comically evil. I love it. I did also just finish reading, uh, Thankwell's omnibus of. books, so that's also heavily on my mind. What a thin guy. The Skaven of all time is, it's three books of just pure joy over how awful can we make someone. And by God, if they don't keep finding new ways for him to be the worst person to ever exist, and I love it. I don't really, I don't really remember much about things.

It's been a, I think this was given our first that fantasy episode. Yeah, that was the first one. And we, we didn't really touch on him that much because I think shy and I were like, yeah, it's tank well, like, you can touch on him, but that boy's going to get his own episode. Oh, yeah. Oh, got your and Felix too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shows up a lot in their books as, I don't, it's, he just shows up.

And it's just an event. And I get a little grin on my face because I'm excited to see what he's bringing to the table. And I know what he's bringing to the table. It's the same meal every time he's going to be an asshole. But it's such a good meal that I'm like, wait or more please. Is it due to him being written very well as a, as a villain? His dialogue is just really funny the way he's a douche. Oh, it's great.

He will go back and forth, between blaming the same person like in three different ways over the course of a single paragraph and then do a line of crack that's classic scavin and I'm like a line of warp warpstone or it's just like

Stephen King yeah no it's great uh shy has put a little excerpt in madness madness can it be possible that you don't remember me can it be possible that you have massed My masterminded my failure fall by mistake? Did you not destroy my works in the Nuln-Worren?

Oh, those many years gone by, Kill-killing my plague pest, Burn smash my gutter runners and my engineers, killing even my first gift of Muldor? Did you not follow me north? Foiling my every attempt to catcher the Earth Diggers flying machine? Did you not twist taint my servant's slave

and turn him against me when you flew to the waist? Did you not rip-take the machine from me when magic had it in its grips. Impossible! Impossible that you don't know me! Impossible that this is all by chance my whole life! My whole life! And this is thankful confronting Gottrick and Felix after two long decades, only to find out.

I don't even know who the fuck he is. It's beautiful. You could hear the singular gear he has in his head grinding to a halt. When Felix hits him with the Who Are You? And Gottrick goes, they all look the same to me. Oh, man. Boy.

Oh, brother. That's a good thing the Skaven are so evil. Funny is heck. Which is, part of me, a little guilty part of me goes, I want the funny rats in 40K. But then I also go, I'm like, I don't know. I like him with her home.

He gives fantasy. It's, you know, one of its biggest unique things. It's like, yeah, you know, I think the rats are perfect. fine way they are, even if so desperately I want a rat to just try and like shank Gilliman. I almost think that like

40K is like a little too grim dark for the Skaven because the Skaven feel like, oh yeah, they're so evil, they're so many. Oh, they fit in 40K grimdark so well. But like there's this weird element of their so Saturday morning cartoon evil that it's like,

it's actually kind of funny and it just feels like it wouldn't fit in 40k. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I feel like orcs are that level of comic relief, you know? Because I don't know. Like, are orcs that funny in fantasy as they are in 40K? What with like them writing vroom, vroom on a rock and putting it in a car?

Not, not quite as much. Like they do still kind of have, um, like some colors being like lucky and stuff. Like, uh, I think, you know, blue is still like, that's, that's a lucky color. Uh, that's still like a thing that's there. And Wurzag doing funny dances across the battlefield is, you know, it's pretty great as, you know, he summons the foot of his god to stomp you flat. Like, that's, there's a level of humor still there, but they're definitely more like, like, more straight-faced in fantasy. Every now and, you know, something funny will still happen, but they're closer to, like, the just generic orc template. Although I will say that fantasy is why we have green orcs.

That was the first instance of orcs ever being green. So that's pretty neat. Wait, like in the world? Yeah. To my knowledge, Warhammer fan, like just them painting orcs green was the, like, that's why orcs are green, because it started in fantasy and people were like, man, that's, that's pretty cool. Huh. Like even like wow and everything, like they took it from Warhammer, mega green?

To my knowledge, yeah. fantasy got that terrain rolling. Look at that. I had no idea. I will say like, like, orcs are obviously like very, very grim, dark, depending on the perspective you're looking at them from. From their perspective, they're like, he-h-haha, but from the perspective of, you know,

the people they're fighting against, like, oh, my God, these horrifying savages. I don't know. Skaven in 40K is a strange one. Because on one hand, like, it's weird, because I say something, I'll say a phrase, like, I don't know, I don't feel like they're serious enough for 40K. And then people will, and then the immediate return phrase is serious enough for 40K.

Yeah. You know, but I think it's, I think it's that difficult thing where when it comes to Warhammer, when it comes to 40K, and I guess parts of fantasy as well, you have to take it, you have to, you have to like play it straight, right? You have to play it straight and you have to take it seriously. And the fact that it's so stupid while you take it seriously, is like the, is the irony. It's the in-joke.

Yeah. You know? And I wonder if, if the Skavener just too naturally goofy, uh, it's, to play it as straight. I don't know. It's kind of like what you said with the orcs. And there are a lot of ways, like, if you put them in,

they, they'd be like tiptoeing on so many other people's territory. Because they kind of got with the orcs. It's like the same thing where it's like from, you know, from us looking at them, it's the funny, silly rat, people that say, say words twice and constantly ruin their own things. And then you look at some poor imperial peasant being invaded by rabid ratmen who doesn't know they even exist and thought they were like just like the story you use to scare kids so they eat their vegetables.

And then it's like when that happens, it's like, oh, yeah, they are utterly horrifying. But like for 40K, the orcs kind of already have that. same with their technology and like how they use it like you know them them firing into their own battle lines to kill one dude it's like well that's that's that's that's that's a nice grim dark and funny things i've also seen the imperial guard so again you're kind of you're kind of tiptoeing in on that territory yeah truly truly the scaven are actually the imperial guard are just the scaven uh but that's their contemporaries. It's just they're just garden. Yeah, that's true. The Skaven have a lot of elements

that are like kind of already big factors in 40K, don't they? Because they're also like swarm and eat everything. So like they're kind of like they almost feel like with how many of them and how much they swarm and eat anything. It's like they even kind of roll in on Tierina territory a little bit. Yeah, it's like they if you put them in, the initial reaction would be like, the funny, the funny rats are here. Thank God. I love the funny rats.

but then, like, there's so many different things that 40K already kind of has a niche for. It would be like, you lose the special sauce coming into 40K. Yeah. As much as you like the funny escape and rats, it's like, we kind of already got all that stuff in 40K.

The, uh, shy's question here, I think it's really good. And it goes, do you think GW preference to back, do you think GW's preference to backport existing things instead of making new ones, could have been born out of their horrible experience

with the addition of the Tao, which obviously nowadays, Tao is a lot better, but at the time of release, Tao were not liked. Oh, really? People did not like the, like the fish people,

uh, at first, the Tao, the, I don't, are they, are they fish, cow,

they've got hooves. We call them, we call them fish. Yeah, we call them fish. I think it's because all of their stuff are like fish base. Yeah, Tide, Hammerhead,

you know, Sunray. And they're blue. Never been able to figure that one out. But I don't, I feel the answer to that one depends on how cynical you want to be. It could be, you know, a once-bitten twice-shy thing. Or it could also be, well, we already have this, and it's so much easier to just cross some names off and backport. Yeah.

You know, infinite money glit. for zero work is, I mean, you know, major corporation is going to do what a major corporation does. Yeah. I mean, I remember, like, the launch of the Necrons back in, what was it, like, 04 or something, way back way. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, that was handled very well. People liked those dudes off the rip, and they were, you know, clearly tomb kings in their own way. Yeah, kind of. Wow, I didn't realize people didn't like Tao.

I kind of just always thought people liked big silly mechs and silly blue people. A lot of people thought it didn't fit with the setting. Yeah. They also had a rules thing where you took like two gunships and put them in front of your infantry. And like it was mathematically basically unbeatable. Oh, was that Fish of Fury, I think is what it was called? The Fish of Fury would rock up the table. And it's unless you specifically built your list to deal with it.

It was like, well, thanks for playing with me today, man. I'll see you in hell. Yeah, there's also, like about a decade of triptide being the main thing and the main way to run Tao. Oh. So they really didn't. They really didn't. Okay. I am starting to see the problem now.

Yeah. It was like the perfect storm of their rules are utter BS in like some circumstances. and they were like, this doesn't quite fit the setting. So they, no one much like them. Yeah, that's fair. That's so fair.

So fair. I was, I was, wonder if corporate greeds the, shy question, or shy statement here. I wonder if corporate greeds the case asking Colin here, what was the reason

to not backport Tomb Kings into AOS, aside from some characters like Nagash and Archon because Tomb Kings are so popular. My assumption with that has always been that it's just like a copyright thing. Like it's the same reason that elves and dwarfs and AOS are now elves and Duarden. Because it's like mummies coming back to life is such a basic thing. Like that like that that's not a new trope that it's you can't like, completely corner that market

because someone else makes a mini of like, you know, some very much tomb king looking guy or even, you know, GW knows what's going on and that model maker knows what's going on. But it's like it's ancient Egypt. You can't copyright ancient Egypt, dude. You can try. You are not going to win that court case. But if you-jou-R-Y type shit. Just re-spell it a little bit.

Just put an A in front of Egypt. And, hey, it's ours now, guys. It's Egypt. You can't even do that. I think that's what the Greeks called ancient Egypt. Oh, well, damn. No wonder they can't even do that. So whereas if you take out,

you make them still be skeleton people with pyramids, but you make them look like the Osiarch Bone Reapers and Sigma are like the Bone Marines. It's like, all right, now you're on much first. or legal ground to tell people to cease and desist if need be. That's always been my assumption for why a lot of things like that didn't make it to AOS. Some of them still kind of did. I think there was a very brief moments where some things were still hanging around.

But I think the Tomb Kings, I think, were one of the two factions just get completely like, no, you were not allowed. And you were not allowed to the party. You do not get the invite. I think it was it was them in Britonia. I was going to say, could it be because Britonia is so blatant that maybe that's why they're not going into H. Yeah. Yeah. That one's I think even worse because at least, you like some of, maybe some of the Tomb King constructs, right?

You can be like, well, that's just unique enough that you can't quite, you know, lock that one down. But Brutonia, it's like that again, this is just King Arthur. There is zero legal ground. Like, you can't, like, I could find, like, a Fisher Price toy from when I was a kid and use that as Bertonean mini of, like, a knight or something. Like, there is, there is, it's kind of hard to have legal presidents over grail knights, right? Like, what are you going to do? I mean, I do like the bone IRS, though. Like, I mean, it's no Tomb King.

Like, I mean, Nagash's mini is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And he also has one of the coolest rules I've ever seen, which is like the hold out your hand one. Oh, I love that rule. It's so funny. I'm still a salty that. Full army. We don't get more of those in 40K. But those rules are really funny.

But I mean, these are like general grievous dudes. Yeah. So wait, what I made some grievous. Remind me the bone kings. Are they like, they're the, the bone reapers, they're just like, hey guys, we need bones. Bring us bones. And then they don't bring you bones. Like, well, I'm going to take your bones.

Yeah. And, you know, it's theoretically completely possible to live, like, with them peacefully. It's just, you know. And it is Warhammer. There will be bones made eventually. People, believe it or not, there's war in my war game. Especially old world. Like, ooh.

Yeah. It's, I mean, old world, sometimes the mountains just form the shape of a skull because of how brutal it is. but with the bone reapers it's like well we've emptied out the graveyard we still need our bones I'm afraid so why don't you why don't you give me your femur you don't need it

why do they need bones is it keep like like build more of their guys or something yeah just to build more of their guys and repair themselves that's so funny okay I just it's just them being like all right give me your bones the bone you don't even have tails anymore

it's fine do they have a thing where they will like, work with like mercenaries to go out and kill people and bring them bones? Yeah, they will, like there's, you know, they'll be different.

Like, it varies based on which Osiarch, you know, Legion, whatever is going. But they can, they can do anything, you know,

they can work very peacefully with other people. Peacefully. Um, amicably, let's not say peacefully. I was going to say, that's doing some heavy lifting there, brother.

You know, they can also show up to your house and be like, theoretically you can get out of this conversation without getting stabbed. Practically, you sneeze the wrong way and I'm taking your skull. Oh. But if the Gash is still in charge, that is kind of sick. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's, when he's in charge, there's a level of evil. You just kind of got to accept.

And if you're not here for it, then you would probably best be looking elsewhere. But Nagash is the rightful ruler of the mortal realm. so I'm all in. I like... I like... The power of Nagash. I love the fact that, like, we have characters like Nagash.

Like, he's just a prick. Like, there's nothing about him. He's just a douche. He's a power-hungry asshole. People who think there aren't, there aren't, like, just pure evil people out there have not read enough history. And that's even coming from me.

Mm-hmm. It's, you can... You can look... If you look hard enough, you can find someone that is just like, you, how are you raised? What happened? Oh, in the old world, he's even worse because, for good or bad, like, just like, narratively, whenever GW decided we must, we must appeal to the, you know, to the children,

we must get all of their allowance money and kind of sanitize things a bit. Like, for good or for bad, it did kind of, they stopped talking about. Some of that game of throw and style horrific things. You can make it work? I don't think it needed to be here. What I am excited to see is if we get it in far enough, and GW starts trying to backport things either to or from age of Sigma than 40K. Because now age of Sigma is like 10 years old now,

which hurts my brain to think about. But I'm wondering. if they're gonna like if they're gonna double dip in that ever or if they've finally gotten themselves to hold back and be like no we can't two separate we can't do that anymore that would be I guess the yeah some of the minis some of the some of the minis uh I don't know when you do you mean like um backporting is in in what sense like they're like next Necromancy is always like the first thing I go to for something that like 40K still doesn't really have too much of an equivalent. Like there'll be some stuff like in the background, like a mortarian's backstory, right?

Whereas, you know, parents were all necromancers. And there is Nergel with, you know, the plagues and stuff. But like classic, you know, the fantasy necromancy, at least as it is in fantasy. And now AOS where it's like it is its own thing. It's not chaos. It's not, you know, order destruction. It is its own icky little kind of magic. I'm wondering if they'll ever do something like that.

And it would probably be pulling from age of sigma at this point. Like where it's not like pulling from chaos. It's not doing, it's its own like little thing. Like it's its own alliance. I'm curious if they'll ever do anything like that where it's just completely unrelated to anything else. I don't know. Does that make any sense? Kind of yeah

I was almost going to say Oh you want 40K vampires Because it seems to me in fantasy A lot of the times when you're dealing with Necromancy Chances are there's a douchebag Immortal Vampire behind it Using that as sort of their

You know I can make an undead army And I'm not tied to chaos at all And maybe it's a little in the gash flavored But yeah I guess we don't really Have anything 40K equivalent to that Right Wait we have 40K Vampires

Blood angels You can also You can also kind of argue Like a little Drukari-ish From like concept-wise Not like actually blood-sucking Soul vampires Yeah

Soul vampires but That is true There isn't I mean I guess the closest you would get Because like necromancy does exist In the sense that like Like a chaos thing Can like revive their buddy

And like bring them back to life type of stuff But it's not like There really isn't a person With a to tomb bringing the dead out of the graves to start Yeah. Unless it's like a nergly thing, but normally those things are alive. They're just like, you know, all

diseased. Like zombies are alive, right? It depends on your setting, but it's like, you know, like, I don't know, pick a zombie game or movie in recent years. Like, they're the infected. Yeah. True. The walkers. Let me tell you something, Rick.

Oh, man. Man, my brain was so in on like vampire coast courts Manfred that like I totally blocked out that the the damn blood angels even existed that's crazy that's crazy that's all right so did the people

who made the sanguary guard oh hey I like the same guard I just hate the lack of wings where are their nipples if you brought the nipples and the wings back I'd be chilling perfect yeah everything else about them I like

they tripped at the last hurdle though it's like the most important bit. It's like you started, you were doing good. Where did the wings go? Yeah. I feel, you know, I kind of be honest, I feel like the 10th edition miniature is that coming for 40K have been mostly pretty good. I think, I think we focus a little bit too much on the Sang Garden and the Blood Angel refresh to, because all the other ones have been really, really good. But then you do just kind of look over at Sigma sometimes. And then, and then they like launch Grand Cathay. And I'm like, Holy hell.

Speaking of, I'm sticking up, I wonder, because I'm thinking like what are the other factions in fantasy that don't have an equivalent in 40K?

Grand Cathay is one of them, but they're humanity, so it's a little tough. You've got the ogres, which you do have the ogrean, but the Moe Tribes are their own kind of special thing. Skaven, of course.

Let me go through my head. A lot of them is going to be at like different flavors of humanity which I feel like they could and absolutely should just make like some guard box squads where it's like look you can give them some upgrades

give them some heads and now they look you know like pick a culture that exists and now you can do this or hell just glue Cathay heads on your guard minis or something right? Yeah yeah that boy yeah Lillie Listerman Lissorman. Oh love me some lizardmen

That is actually one thing that we really are missing Because Lizardmen I mean you have like the Zote I guess But that's about it it's like Because Lizarmen are what Aztec basically? Yeah they're like More or less yeah Maya Inca Aztec soup

Not sure I mean that's that's one Demographic that we don't have in 40K I mean every demographic exists Because there's a space marine chapter Or like a guard regiment for everything Yeah But I don't think we have have any of this kind of look, at least for

a main faction, so Listermen could be one. The closest to dinosaur riding would be the Exoditeson. Please. Please. Please. Elves riding dinosaurs? Who would be interested in that as I sit there frothing at the mouth?

Praying. Literally everybody, who wouldn't like elves riding dinosaurs? Everybody wants that. If you done an ounce of... And also literally, where you would get like the trients, too, wouldn't you? Mm-hmm.

in the exodus, probably. Yeah, you could get like the, you know, the tree kin or all the different, you know,

whatever you would like to call your ent to make it copyrightable. But, I have, no, that's, like, what elves don't really have a,

again, the exodites, but that is such a nothing burger of calling that a faction. Like, you can't do that. You can not call them an army. Um,

yeah, what elves don't, um, and I have to, it's funny with the Dark Elves, like, you know, the elves and the Eldar, because, like, you clearly can see it. And even when they started, you know, rebranding them,

like the Craft Worlders are now the Assyriani, the Dark El Dorer are now the Drukari. It's like, you, I can see what you're doing because it's in fantasy, like they're called, you know, the Druki and the Assur. But they've also kind of started moving away from them at the same time. where at this point,

like the dark Eldar and the dark elves are like superficially similar. It's like, yes, you know, they're the evil elves. Yes, they will turn you into a skin coat. Which, you know, is what it is. God, God forbid a girl have a fun way to spend her evening afternoon. God forbid a girl have hobbies.

Evening afternoon, that's... I'm spiritually, I appreciate what you were getting at. Yeah, spirit. Yes, thank you. This is why YouTube videos have editing, and this doesn't. Yeah. This is forever. It's on your permanent record.

Yep. But otherwise, like, they've kind of moving away, especially, like, one thing that's turned away, like, the, there is no, like, Slanesh instantly gets your soul in, uh, in fantasy for the elves, which is one thing, like, they definitely went away with for 40K. like in fantasy and elf dies it's like you know Slenish likes Elf Souls like you know it's like the you know it's it's a very tasty meal but it's a tasty morsel it's not quite the same as in 40K yeah there's no like all right you died in you go like you're that's just it

like there's a whole other like set of things that can happen there's a whole other god that also might just pinch your elf souls just because why not whereas in Lull got it yeah You get a little prank. Whereas in fantasy or 40K, it's like, you know, it's the, you die, do you have a spirit stone? It sucks to be you. So as time has gone on, it's cool to see, like, those little differences pop up is the other big one too is the elf gods still exist in fantasy and are actually respected to some amount.

Poor cane isn't, poor, poor cane is allowed to be cool in fantasy. Yeah. It can't around anymore. Well, he kind of is, but not really. He's around whenever someone needs to look cool. He's around whenever he needs an avatar of him in some way. Yeah. I was going to say, doesn't the avatar of cane and 40K

kind of get the wharf treatment of like, oh, wow, look, I beat an avatar of cane, I'm so strong and cool. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Dude, Fogrom strangled one to death. Yeah, statue. He's made of lava. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, three orcs shot one to death. That wasn't war boss. See, okay, I think, yes, three orcs shot an avatar of Kane to Death, but that was at the end of the Warboss novel. And I feel like Mike Brooks did that as a gag. I feel like he was fully understanding of what he was doing in that. That just makes sense. It's just goofy there. I think the only time...

Have you read Warbos, sorry, Colin? I have not. The inciting incident of the book is that a bunch of grots are messing around and Stompah's head and one of them pulls a lever which like removes the head and it plummets to the earth and kills the war boss and then the three other war bosses are like oh well now I'm the boss and then they fight over it for the rest of the book yeah and the grot thinks he should be the war boss because he's the chosen one because he killed the war boss I must read this now this sounds great all all of Mike Brooks's uh orc book

are solid like eights. They all have small problems, but they're all very fun. Hey, and an eight's a passing grade. That's a B. I can live with an eight. Yeah. Man, my parents said the same thing to me, man. Holy. Oh, that

was the best. They fired a shock jump drags to teleport it inside the void shields and then just jumped out and walloped the preincepts with a fucking hammer. Hey, effective tax if you get it to work. Kill the meat, save the meck. Mm-hmm.

Too true. Yeah, it ate's fine. Me, when I drive by the orphanage. Oh, no. That's... All right. Remember how he said this is forever, Ricky? The Jakari looking at like the homies at.

Hmm. She's a threat. She's ate, Sam. Oh, no. I said I enjoyed That wasn't that funny. Well, it sounded like you weren't amused by that at all, Bricky. Yeah, it really sounded like you thought that was a very...

No, I wasn't funny at all. Tackles hysterically echoing in the past. That was the funniest goddamn thing I've heard in the week. Oh. Jesus. I can't. I don't think Ted's going to make that as... the thumbnail, but I just, I just, I'm just, I don't know, man.

I don't know how, I don't know how we could fix, find a way, but we'll, Ted makes the thumbnail suddenly damn, this massive subscriber drop. Where'd everyone go? What happened? Holy hell. Also, to answer your question shy, the dark elves are kind of an age of Sigmar, but not really, but they are. Marathi's still hanging around.

She's a goddess now. And her own little faction is its own, like, it's all the witch elves from the dark elves range. And some of the dark elf, like old models can be found in cities of Sigmar still. But the dark elves aren't really a thing. God only knows what Malikith is doing. We get like one sentence on him every five years. And it's like, all right. It's kind of one of the biggest players in fantasy.

and now we just kind of got a stare like where are you? What are you doing? Please. Boy, they really did a 180 with Malikin. I think that might be a huge spoiler for like end times, but like boy, they really turned that boy around. That's something I found is just inherent whenever you'd like discuss fantasy or age of Sigma.

The cloud of the end times, even 10 years after it just permanently hangs over everything. where it's like, all right, how does this plot line go? What's he going to do? Well, you won't believe it. We fired the Death Star at the planet. I don't know why I forget his name, even though I like him so much. For some reason, I want to call him Harold or like, or like, like, um, Hank.

Who's the vampire coasts dude again? Luther Harcon. Harcon. Harcon. That's the one. Is he, is he a, is he a US? Is he around? I liked him a lot.

He was super fun. No, I think he was actually Manfred's first team kill in the end times. Are you shitting me? Wait, what? Nope. Classic Manfred. Classic Manfred.

Aside from that, he went down. Oh, never mind. Oh, yeah, don't spoil what he does. That's right. We haven't touched on the end times yet. I don't actually know what happens with the end times. I'm actually, I'm waiting to find out when D.K. explains it to me. All I know

is that I think it has something to do with the foot lady, but I don't really understand. The spoiler-free spoiler of end-time synopsis is you will read a bit of lore and you're like, damn, that's the coolest thing ever. And then you keep reading and you're like,

damn, that's it. That just sucks. Damn. Did they just like, it sucks? What did what? Okay, I'm not going to ask any more in time questions. I was going to be like, why? Just like why. Can we answer why? Why they decided to kill it off? Yeah. Uh, because they didn't think it was profitable, right? They were just like, oh yeah, this is nobody likes this. There. There was, right? There was, I think there was one, like, I think a, like, the basic tactical Marine box was outselling fantasy. which it was a perfect bloat of it did

just kind of fall behind 40K in popularity like 40K just kind of beat it out and also GW is like what if what if we just don't care about fantasy anymore and we don't really support it and quietly push it off to a corner and then kill it and bring age of Sigmar in

that's stupid yeah and then Total Warhammer came out and Vermintytein are like wait a minute. People like this setting. So why would you ever, why would you ever kill off a fantasy setting to then make a new fantasy setting? I think because they still wanted like their fantasy like shy say, age of Sigmar did become profitable, especially after first edition and GW pulled their collective heads out of

their asses a little bit. Um, but also just, they just wanted to keep like the cornerstone where they have a fantasy war game and that side of the market is like, yeah, We still cater to it. We still got you. That market share must never drop. I always feel that way, except, like, I feel like horrors. I don't know if I'm crazy with this, but I keep feeling like the horror's heresy. Tabletop game probably is selling not good.

But then I think it's mainly being sold by people who want to convert their stuff for their 40K armies. Like, I don't know many people who are extremely excited about the Saturn 9 Terminators that came out. They were all like, hey, guys, what's the base size of the Saturday 9 Terminator? because they want to see if they can adjust it for whatever they want to make. Yeah. That was a, oh, but age of Sigmar and fantasy does have

my favorite backporting thing ever in GW history. Oh, this is a good way to end the episode. What are you got? God bless Beastman fans. I don't know how you do it. I'm an Eldar fan. I will be in the trenches forever.

I will accept my like once every 15 years big refresh and then sit there staring at those toys for the next, you know, 15 years until someone at GW wakes up and does it again. Because at least the Hildar get cool models when they are deigned to be acknowledged. The Beastman. Oh, man. End times they get poured into age of Sigma, yes? You now need to change all of those bases. you want to keep using your beastman. No more squares for you, my friend.

You must now put them on circles. So if you got a big enough beastman army, I'm very sorry. Which, you know, any, you know, ported over models had to do that too. So it wasn't just them. But it only gets worse because I know that when they were doing that big, like, catacrosse guy for age of Sigmar, right? He looked like a beastman. Beastman players, beasts of chaos players, as it were. We're over the moon.

and he's a destruction model. He's orcs. He's technically orcs. And then they removed the beastman for Mage of Sigmar and ported them back to the old world. So I hope you didn't, you know, you didn't glue them onto the circles too well, buddy, because now they need to go back onto squares.

But it can't be any squares because they changed the base size of the, like the rank and flank square bases for Old World, which was something I think they needed to do because some of those models, depending on which ones were really hard to fit together into a unit. But it also means that if you were a Beasman player, you couldn't just pull out the old ones. So they had to go from squares to circles to getting nothing to then having to buy entirely new things.

Ever so slightly dear. Oh, boy. There is, I assure you, if you, if whatever faction you play, if you don't, don't run Beastman, you are somehow not, W's least favorite child. I remember we did the Beastman episode and people were not happy that we didn't mention in Glup Shito, the Beastman. It's everything in Warhammer can be a Glob Shitto if you look hard enough. The Beastman is where the Glob Shadows reigns supreme. If there is any Glob Shidow fans, they got the shirt, they got the foam finger. It is the full-on Glob Shiddo Beastman fan.

But shy makes a very good point. I mean, yeah, you know, speaking of fucked, here we are, another Calgar, again, that's going to sell amazingly because of Space Marine 2. And Dark Eldar lose their grotesques and their entire fine cast in resin range. And they get a refresh of an arcon and Shadow Heart. Which, you know, I'm happy Sharts here, but. As Sharp being a part of Jukari does and does not make sense. It works out. Carmically neutral.

Oh. You know, I like the terracotta sentinels. Yeah, yeah. I sure am glad Cathay is here now. It's not the three paragraphs they had in ancient times of 2015 and before. I really liked playing Cathay in Total War as well. They're neat. They're very fun, and they made them better since release.

Not that they were bad on games release, but they were a little clunky, and they touched that up. Were you a, I get a feeling, but I'm going to ask anyway. Were you an age of mythology player, Colin? You have, yes, sir, I was a regular age of mythology player. I was looking up the strategy guides, looking up the cheat codes, you know, and game and former, whatever, magazine and archaic internet forums. When the family computer, I was finally, I was allowed on after I did all my homework and crap, it was age and mythology time or total war time.

I have very recently had a chance to play the definitive edition, or the remastered edition because I was playing some of it recently. And it just, damn, dude, Hades is overpowered. Oh yeah That's all I gotta say It's uh Hell yeah You get the funny gold vault

Or the vault and now you have infinite resources Actual and that vault like that You can have multiple of that vault You don't even just get one of that vault Oh it's it's beautiful And I love turtling and strategy games So I sit there For three years wait for everyone else

To run out of resources And then grind them down with crap units And which come back to life Exactly dude it's it's heaven. I've never been happier there. Actually, Colin, it's hell. Well, no, ancient Greece has Elysium. It's heaven and hell. It's both.

We're both right. Yay. I have no idea what they're talking about. Age of Empires 2. That's all I got. We just, we'll get onto it later. Okay. I don't want to live in that world, no anime, though. And I don't get Dragon Ball Z. Oh, my childhood. Let's go.

Me traveling to the border of Southern California with a Dragon Ball Z shirt just to know that I'm one of them. So true. So true. The cartel before they behead me and they see I've got a dragon ball tattoo. Zam, he's a DBZ fan. Damn. All right, all right. This was a good, this was a good time.

This was a good chat. This was very fun. Thank you for being here, Pancreas. Of course. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I think that's a, do you want to do a shout-off for yourself? Where can people find you, the whole usual?

Sure. You can find me at Pancreus No Work on YouTube. You can find me at Pankerius Still No Work also on YouTube. Pick your poison. Would you like lore and tabletop or gamer slop? You know? I've, I consider myself a connoisseur of

making slop. So, you know, pick your poison. Lore crimes with some very other talented fellas who I show up and I sure am there and then they say words and I'm like, yeah, you guys are definitely smarter than me.

And of course, you can find me on Twitter where you can track my exact alcohol intake by how often you see a gif of Vajita. You know, I've seen a lot of Vigita gifts from you lately, man. You've got to lay off the sauce, brother. It's only a problem when I'm out. Of alcohol or out and about. The alcohol.

Make your poison. Hell yeah. All right, one more time for the audience. Please remind us your special Monster Energy drink. Oh yes The Corona Fireball Zero Ultra You take

There is no There is no measuring units You can fill up as much As each as we want Of Corona light Fireball and Monster Energy Zero Ultra This gets my official Seal of Never Do This

Wonderful I will be drinking one of these On the lore crimes podcast next month Please Please do And God be with you you because no one else is making that drink go down easy.

God be with me because no one else will. No one else will be.