Adulting - #10 'Not a girl, not yet a woman' with Charly Cox

Episode Date: July 22, 2018

This week I speak to poet Charly Cox (@charlycox1), all about body image, sexual empowerment, growing up from girlhood to womanhood and all the bits in between. I really loved this discussion and I hope you do too! As always please rate, review & subscribe to help others find the podcast! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Anyway, I'm going to talk a little bit more later on in the podcast. I hope you enjoy the episode and thanks again to Time of the Month. Hi guys, welcome back to Adulting. This is the podcast where I try to discuss all the things that you think you're supposed to know and then it turns out that actually no one's really told us what we're supposed to be doing. And today I'm joined by a very special guest. I have Charlie Cox with me. Hello. So Charlie is a poet and she's just released her first book called She Must Be Mad. And the poetry is amazing. If you follow me on Instagram, you'll see that I was very much drinking in all of her poetry.

That was very poetic of you. Thank you. Drinking it in. Drink it up. Yeah, it's just amazing. She's amazing. I kind of knew we were going to get on very well before she even arrived. And we have been talking now for like an hour and a half without the mic which is

good actually maybe longer than that um but we just thought basically we want to get stuck into a conversation surrounding body image sex growing up and learning about your body as a woman because yeah their themes covered quite a lot in your poetry right so much more so than I anticipated when I started writing the book I don't think until I really started going back on old diaries and resurfacing old work, did I realise how much of a negative, awful relationship I had with my body and how that seeped into so many different areas of my life, which I didn't realise were being ruled by my lack of self-worth. Actually, I've just realized we should probably go backwards

a bit so do you want to do you want to explain a little bit about how your poetry came to be who you are yeah hi my name's Charlie I was like can we do like a blind date yeah I love that that's exactly my filler black um I started writing poetry guess, when I was about 12. And it was very much a secret, mortified, embarrassed hobby that I had. Nobody knew about it. It was, you know, kept in diaries, locked away. And then, I guess at the time, they were more about boys and, like, early heartbreak and, you know, someone called Tim that I fancied in The Year Below Me or silly things. And then as I got older, it became such a form of therapy

and a real crutch that I relied on that as soon as I felt something that was too much or too heavy that I just couldn't understand the injustice of feeling pain or where it was coming from, the only way I could untangle it from its enmeshed state was to turn it into something physical so by writing the poems I was I guess trying to work out my own problems and you know the most bourgeois puzzle solving riddle yeah I love that but they're so beautifully written when

you were younger were you writing like little rhyming poems and then it suddenly evolved into being actually really credible literature how did that come about yeah I I love words yeah I'm such a geek and I had again I had such a problem with the fact that I was such a geek when I was younger and now I love it oh it's the coolest thing I love I'm so glad that it's back in trend to be smart um really having a good moment yeah this is our time um I love that I've involved myself in that but yeah no please do come in uh I I've just always loved language and words and working out you know there's nothing more satisfying to me now I mean I really get off on finding a clever rhyme or realizing two words that don't look like I just love it so I don't know I guess I guess I spent a lot of time just so involved in it that it gradually became a bit better I started reading poetry a lot more

um I've been writing poetry for years and then suddenly realized that I'd never actually read any yeah well this is what's so amazing because in of itself even take away the context or the subject matter, poetry for you as a young woman, you're 22, to be writing poetry and for it to be so effective is incredible. Because I studied English at uni, so obviously we studied poetry and I understand how it works and the nuance of the way of the language and putting words in different places. But most people in day-to-day life aren't sat down reading poetry. So you're bringing that back into the zeitgeist which before we even get onto the topic is amazing oh that's lovely thanks i go embarrassed and shy now um yeah it's it's

hard because you know i feel as though it's one of the last few art forms that is so over intellectualized yeah and it you know academics and older poets are terrified of this idea that younger people are starting to get back into poetry and you know the form isn't perfect or I don't quite understand you know how it should arc or where this makes sense or you know I don't follow a set of rules and there are a lot of people that that really pisses off that's so funny though because it's art and isn't one of the points of art being that there is no rules well you would I mean you'd like to think so wouldn't you but it's it's the lot I feel like it's one of the last things that we're now starting to touch and forgive me millennialize and that's where the term insta poet has come from you know it's not about praising someone

for the platform they put it on it's about degrading the quality of content because it so happens to be shared on instagram online yeah which frustrates me so much you don't call like you would never say tennyson was a book poet no i know it's it's just it's just that changing of era and it's that uncomfortability that people feel when we are repossessing things and changing them but that's got to happen. And ultimately, it's so exciting. It's so, so exciting that you can talk about, and a lot of poetry online now coming from younger women is about expressing pain and confusion and loss

or mental health issues or a whole wide variety of things. I don't think ordinarily you can be so candid to talk about but with using poetry as a vessel for that I'm hoping that it's sort of like making more enlightening conversations yeah it's interesting though because I think the other place where you do find these darker more candid conversations is usually in rap music which is yeah poetry in itself isn't it so it's funny that those forms seem to be a place where something wrapped up so beautifully often contain kind of the darkest most difficult things to talk about yeah because it's so hard to be concise I mean I feel like we're going to learn that really quickly yeah it's so difficult to be

concise and it's so difficult to give yourself the time to really come to an end point of something but where you know where poetry is so powerful is that it can very much be a piece of learning that you've made tangible. And then you can sort of push out and it's no longer yours. And just to touch on briefly, so obviously you suffer from a mental illness. Can I say suffer? Is that rude? I mean, I'd say I suffer, yeah. Yeah? Okay. Just don't want to say anything that's like untoward. Yeah, personally, I don't think it's rude.

Okay, cool. so you have bipolar yep bipolar 2 disorder um I was diagnosed when I was 17 okay and so then like that probably that conciseness and that idea as well of being able to put something which is as we'll talk about so unfathomable and not understood into a form that you can kind of create yeah and like reclaim and own and you know I think I don't know if other people feel this way but I very much felt that as soon as I was given a name for what I was feeling I really hoped that that would change everything for me I thought ah if I can put a label on that then that makes sense and all of my behavior is excused and all of my pain is excused and it's justified and it makes sense and the reality is is nothing changes yeah you're very much still

in the thick of it um and with writing it out and putting it into a bubble it that became my bit of gross pain or anxiety that I could put a ribbon on place in front of me and go oh it is a real thing yeah that is a feeling and now I'm going to push it away so I just I don't have to think about that bit yeah so much longer not so affected by it but it's an amazing thing to share because I guess when you first would when you were first diagnosed were you scared or were you pleased or were you terrified absolutely terrified which is bizarre because I always had a feeling that that would be the end result I had a feeling that they would probably say it was bipolar I'd done a hell of a lot of personal research into where all these like weird fluxes were coming from

I thought that would be my saving grace as soon as I'd been diagnosed like oh good I get it but I was terrified I was my family I was most worried about the fact that people wouldn't believe me which is really odd particularly now I think I mean if you know me you probably guess it yeah um or that people would think it was dirty or that maybe I was really weird or you know again I'd spent my life and where the title comes from sort of being battered off with like oh she just she's so mad she must be mad and that's horrible like what does that mean and you know doctors because they're so limited with professional rhetoric now because they don't really understand it would use a very similar terminology

and now being in a place where talking about it is reclaiming it yeah I love that and it feels good like there's something that feels I've met so many fascinating people on this journey of being really open like wow so many more people than I knew are going through it so many more like successful people have overcome or like are still battling through it and that is that is so much more not exciting is the wrong word I think freeing and liberating yeah now being in a place where you know 17 year old Charlie was in bits I remember sitting at a pub with my best friend and confessed to him like confessed that I'd been diagnosed with something um I think I'll never be able to talk about this this is so shameful it's

so embarrassing and the reality is is it's not shameful and it's not embarrassing and it sorry and it is that idea that it's not it's not a stigma and other people are going through it and it's just it's really strange to think that we are in a place where even now it's not a stigma and other people are going through it. And it's just, it's really strange to think that we are in a place where even now, it's still not normalised. People still, some people can't get over the fact that people are walking around with mental illnesses and they are still just as human or just as worthy

or just as anything else anyone else. It's really funny what I've come to learn so much, particularly now we're in a time where people are really pushing and advocating for mental health awareness is that there are socially acceptable forms of mental illness or bad mental health you know talking about depression anxiety sadly is I fear to say on trend but it is it's becoming we we had a little discussion about this earlier i i again don't

feel like i necessarily have that much credence to discuss it because i don't have a mental illness but i do have mental health where i have dips and i can understand to my own extent certain things exactly and there are so many worrying statistics now about young people and you know if you were to ask somebody under the age of 25 if they had um mental health issues they are more likely to say yes than they are to say no and so much of that comes from such a lack of understanding of our brains and like personal self-awareness not really understanding you know what is depression and what is a really shit awful period in your life and what is anxiety and feeling anxious and sort of detaching those because you know we're all human we all have

ups and downs and lows and good points and terrible moments but at what point are those mental illnesses and depression and anxiety whilst are awful and difficult topics to discuss are more socially acceptable yeah whereas talking about I was even still when I say like I've got bipolar that that's quite shocking yeah or people talking about schizophrenia or they're very real important terrifying things that so many people are suffering with that we're still struggling to break through with because there's so there's so much focus on the ones that are more socially acceptable yeah it's really and it's difficult to broach the subject because you can't ever I never ever would want to say that no one's got validity in anything this is the other thing you never know you can't tell if someone's got

depression you can't tell if someone's got anxiety but I feel like with it being about spoken about so much there's a bit of conflation as you say between like yeah what is I read a really brilliant quote the other day which was and I wholly feel towards it is I have a mental illness but sometimes I have really good mental health yeah and that makes so much sense to me you know we all have mental health and we all have to look after our mental health and everyone and anyone is justified in whatever pain or struggle they have with that but what's worrying and it really frightens me that we we will start to get to a place where we confuse mental illness and poor mental health yes and they're both as important as each other but it's

so important to keep them separate and I think what's important as well is that you're not defined I think I think it used to be a place where I think it's getting better but I think the thing with bipolar and schizophrenia and all those other mental illnesses which are less spoken about is people define people by that they're like oh she's bipolar yeah exactly is rather than it being like a part of something that affects you day to day just like you might have alopecia or you might have vitiligo you might have some kind of physical um kind of illness but you're still you you have a mental illness that affects you but you're still charlie at the end of the day exactly it's there's always been a really similar argument with like autism like do

you say you know you don't say he's autistic he is someone that has autism um and again like that's a rhetoric that we're all starting to relearn which is amazing that we've all got to a point where we are really keen to make sure we're getting that right i need to call myself out actually because on my last podcast i did with henry fraser he has a disability he's not a disabled person and i think i said something like disabled people but it shouldn't be that it should be like people with a disability it's putting the person first and it's so fine to remember that we're all learning you know none of us we've spent so long in a society you know much before we were even born which affects us now if a language that we think is right or what we know or how we've been taught and getting it wrong is also a good thing you know

making that mistake or realizing that that's not the right way to talk about something is a positive because you're realizing that it was wrong definitely none of us are perfect none of us are going to suddenly really get you know a movement or why it's so important to talk about things but I think we should all be a lot kinder on ourselves yeah for sure so I think what we really wanted to talk about or what I would quite like to talk to you about because I think what I really found resonated with me it's lots of things actually that I haven't spoken about out loud or even thought to myself and I was saying to Charlie that when I was reading some of the poetry it kind of made me regress and remember some of the ways that I looked at myself

and my body and my worth when I was younger which is really quite dark and I think more girls especially women you can't generalize but I think as especially as a young girl these thoughts and feelings that we have about our own body image and our worth and like sex and all that stuff it's just it's like it's almost like a rite of passage we all go through this self-loathing misunderstanding and then you come out and at some point in womanhood hopefully it suddenly clicks that actually I have autonomy of my body but I think it happens at a very different stage for everyone yeah and you know some people might not even go through it but I think I think everyone does even in a in a slight way yeah even even if it's in the most minute tiny nuance of having you know

a hang-up or an insecurity yeah we're having a really interesting discussion about this idea of do you you know with your body like with body image or with understanding yourself is that something that comes with maturity is that part of growing up or is that a conscious choice or decision or you know is that because of x amount of different things you've employed to get there and I feel very much and particularly writing the book and putting it all together it did feel like a rite of passage if you know I'm 22 so I'm by no means a woman yet as Britney would contest that was one of my I did love that as what do you say as our as our lord saviour Britney Spears says I'm not a girl not yet a woman and my god do I feel that. What do you say as our Lord Saviour, Britney Spears says, I'm not a girl, not yet a woman. And my God, do I feel that. But I do. There's such a significant difference in having grown, like really feeling like I've grown up that little bit more. And with that has come sense of self and body confidence. And I'm still not 100% there but I'm definitely 40% further than

I was two years ago yeah oh 100% me too we were talking about how do it's funny actually because I've started calling myself a woman actively I used to always refer to myself as a girl that's so interesting and then I one day was actually I'm a woman now and I feel like I'm a woman now but that's only there's no like age for it I think I just made something in me just decided that I was a woman and it was also reading a bit more feminist rhetoric and like the idea of like girl being quite sexualizing and like how it can be quite damaging and that just suddenly made me want to be a woman but I also think one of the reasons why we assimilate ourselves as girls is this fear of aging is this fear of like us being less wanted or desirable if we're a woman

whereas when you're a girl you're young and you're sexy and you're fresh and there's something yeah there's there's only there's only lovely words that can be prefixed on girl yeah she's such a sweet girl she's such a lovely girl she's such a pretty girl you know woman is is very different it is so very very different it's got a lot of a cold I don't know the connotations towards it are yeah and even just the sound of the word as well yeah womb man but still not an adult but yeah but one of the things i think i wanted to talk about that i really picked up on was there's in a few of the poems you kind of talk about the way that your body especially when you're entering into a sexual relationship with a man you just felt that it was kind of like there was you there was your body and then there was him yeah it was it was very much a third party

and almost like something that I had to give yes because I felt so I felt so little about myself and I really didn't realize it and it's taken it's taken me a really long time to come to see that that's where all that behavior had come from but I felt so little about who I was and I felt so fat and disgusting and just awful that as soon as I entered a sexual relationship with a man it wasn't about me feeling good about myself or me enjoying sex or me having sex because I wanted to it was almost like apology that was an apology and validation from someone going actually I want you so then you're going oh they want me so I must be enough exactly oh if they want me then then they should have me because it what a privilege it is to be wanted yes particularly when I look like this like how could anybody want me in this state

and and then even if I didn't really want to be there it was such a confused ideation of do I do I just have to give this yeah to you I think it's interesting because it's when I was younger I used to think I was the only one that thought the things I thought and now I by no means think everyone thinks this but I realize it's a lot more common than I thought so I now know looking back that I've never actually been fat yeah but when I was younger I really thought I was fat and I thought I wasn't good enough and I I used to be so scared of a boy touching my stomach it would actually make me feel like physically ill I was tiny when I was at school but in my head I was so fat and that fear of fatness which in of itself is ridiculous is conditioned to us so deeply and as a woman you're just told your whole life that

you just need to be smaller thinner skinnier all yeah all the good things on the other side come from being fit and and that is that is language that has been learned you know that is not something that is innate with us it really is a learned language of you know what we are as women and who we are and I've I really didn't realize how wrapped up I was in that for so long and it was incredibly frightening just looking back on all these past thoughts and feelings of a very like slim young normal looking girl who was so convinced she was fat and gross and ugly and even if I was bigger than my friends it didn't mean I was any less than them and they certainly never looked at me and thought she's the fat friend even though I would always have said

I am the fat friend and I still feel like I will always be the fat friend 100% I even even now I think of myself as a lot bigger than I am I imagine people looking at me as though I'm fat and the other issue with this is I'm drawing a negative connotation with being fat because I'm so I have fat phobia entrenched in me because of society I'm not saying I think fat is bad but I know that in the back of my head I have a fear of fatness exactly and we I think you'll agree you know I've never looked at somebody who is bigger than I am and gone god she's so fat and gross I've never done that I can quite honestly say I would never that never enters my head but when I look at myself yeah I'm like oh it's awful and I think it's taking it's taking me so long I

was saying to Charlie that now I'm in such a good place with my body I'm probably like I'm bigger than I was at school I must and my body's changed so many ways but it's only when I finally stopped giving so much of a shit about my body that I don't have this bad these thoughts but when I was younger I was saying that I used to wish that I could be and this is so sad I've never said this out loud and if my mum listens to this my sister made me feel really bad but I used to wish that I wish I could get ill or have a car crash or something and I'm saying this because I feel like I said it to Charlie and she literally went I used to think the same thing but I'd be like if I got in a car crash and then I got hit in a way that I couldn't eat and I lost loads of weight but not in a way that I'd get a

bad scar or maybe I used to watch programs where people were ill and they talk about getting really skinny and that's all I took away from that I'd be like if I got ill it'd be quite good because actually you just lie there and you just get really skinny I was so fixated on this idea of wanting to be thin and this is a time when I was supposed to be doing GCSEs or growing up or whatever and I you wouldn't have known from the outside looking in that I was having these thoughts I'd never tell anyone but that inner narrative was going on all the time isn't that so frightening and what is I mean when you said that to me earlier I had a pang of heartbreak to think that you had ever thought that and also this really sad realization that I've definitely had those thoughts before. And it's not a slant on

morals or ethics or being PC or not being empathetic or compassionate to people that are incredibly ill and go through that. It is that absurdity of being so obsessed and realising that the only way to get the way that you think is enough or thin enough is by something terrible happening it was never a thought of maybe if I just eat a healthy diet or if I exercise or I'm going to really like put all of my energy into feeling good about my body it was how do I you know put myself in a state where I physically cannot eat yeah and that is the only way that I'll get to a stage where I want to be exactly and it changed that because now I because I think it also was that I used to think I used to be like god I'm so annoyed that I don't have the willpower to be anorexic that's another thing to think but I think

that's a really I mean it's horrible it's and it's so jarring to hear it out loud and I appreciate that that probably sounds so horrific but I know all of like I pretty much could speak on behalf of all of my female friends I think we've all thought or said things like it's awful isn't it but this I think we need to kind of like realize that it happens to all of us because all of us are walking around carrying this huge burden I mean I genuinely am not anymore and I kind of have got it until I read your poetry which is why I think one it's just so astounding that you've got the confidence to to be writing these things but also the intelligence to be able to like vocalize it because it kind of just drew back these memories that I'd full-on repressed like I didn't even

remember that I thought those things no but it was it's amazing because I think what you're doing is you're being a real voice for women and girls everywhere who we all see also we have to secretly suffer it's not like you can let anyone know that you're thinking this because at the same time as having to be beautiful and thin you've also got to be really strong-willed and a career woman and woke and really everything else yeah and confident and sexy and really put together and authentic and it's like you have to look amazing but you also have to be completely confident in the way you look so you can't like boys find it sexy when you're confident but you can only be confident if you look like this so like that whole narrative and the idea and so confusing and exhausting yeah it is no wonder that so many

of us have spent so long being miserable and continue to spend so long feeling so unsure about your body and who you are and I I mean I actively would never have said that I had body issues or I had a bad relationship with issues or I had a bad relationship with food or I had a bad relationship with my body until about six months ago when I started to look at all of these different things. That's not okay. No.

That's not right. I mean, it seems to be perfectly normal, but it's not correct. And I shouldn't be so okay with the fact that, you know, the way that we talk about food or even even like little things such little little things like going out for a meal with girlfriends and then the way we'll all be like oh it's so naughty to look at the dessert menu oh my god that's so true like even it's so normal it's so funny and it said you know with no malice

or bad intention but that is so damaging and if you had you'd be like oh I'm so fat I've just had no you're not and why and it's also it's that explaining thing it's that thing of going like I'm gonna tell you before you say it exactly so it's like oh I know I'm really naughty I'm having this it's like no just eat it just eat it we put so much um such a moral question on food especially when it comes to women that we make everything like a question of like how good you are as a person like how little you eat equates to you being like a better more less gluttonous less it's so true person and if you think about it's quite ritualistic as well in the way that we go about it you know a girly sleepover or catching up with the best mate like we're going to really pig out in secret in our bedrooms with a pizza and some chocolate and some ice cream and some wine and

because that is so disgusting that we are confined to doing that in our homes and we do the same with sex if you look at it it's really it's exactly the same it's about women consuming we shouldn't do that women shouldn't be having sex or enjoying sex it shouldn't be eating food or enjoying food we should be basic isn't that weird like you do the same thing women are shamed for sleeping like you watch um love island i haven't actually brought this up but we'll bring up whatever megan is getting an absolute grilling for having sex and yeah i think she's a little bit problematic sometimes she says things and she doesn't seem like she's that sex positive or whatever but by the same token she's on a show that's about trying to find the right guy

or whatever so she's allowed to sleep with whoever she wants exactly everyone's so repulsed because she's a woman who's enjoying sex and that is just ridiculous and we do the same thing with food and I think we're getting over it now obviously we're becoming a bit more sex positive there's a lot of anti-slut shaming going on which is fab but it's still there like nestled in the back of your mind it isn't like we're we're all still so guilty of it as well in a sense where I think because we're so unsure of what we are or aren't allowed to socially do or admit to doing that it becomes really difficult to look at other people and be okay with their actions as well you know I think a lot of where the backlash on Megan has come from is from perfectly nice lovely smart

compassionate intelligent women but who have been told for so long that they're not allowed to do that they're absolutely in no way in hell is she allowed to do it on national television which again is sad and frustrating and more so on the public reaction to what she looked like before and after plastic surgery this is so damaging we're talking about this before because this really stresses me out but obviously these pictures of megan being released before she was famous um well before she's on the show before she had surgery they're not on her public profile so someone close to her or someone's friends leaked these photos now whatever the reason behind her getting surgery is nothing to do with us but clearly it must be because she felt some desire

to change herself which will come from an insecurity, which has come from society. It's come from people making a woman like Megan and many other women feel like you are just not good enough and you need to change the way you look to be worthy. And then she's done that. And now she's going to come out and God knows what she's going to feel when she's being absolutely torn apart for doing something which frankly is a product not it's not her doing something wrong it's a product of a society that tells us that we need to look like sex dolls what is so like frightening about the way people have responded that to as well is as though she's done some god-awful thing to trap men into thinking that she's beautiful like whoa she was already stunning yeah she was already beautiful she clearly had an insecurity she wanted

to change that and you know that that is expensive and it's invasive and it's you know it's not an easy thing you don't just go into a plastic surgeon and wake up the next day and look a different way it's a it's a huge emotional process and like dedication to to fill the need or want to do that and bear in mind she was a slim white able-bodied woman who's already very conventionally attractive in today's society and if she felt the need like she is one of the least marginalized groups of women you could ever get like before she's even had the surgery and if she feels that need i watch it and i'm like shit maybe i should get my lips out i'm so like i don't ever want to do anything to myself so it does make you question yeah and i think maybe i need to get my lips done or maybe i could just get a bit of something done and that's that really scares me

to be honest it's it's it's so scary it really is so scary that that can, that is acceptable for it to be a niggling thought. And if it's a niggling thought, you know, I feel very lucky in that whilst I'm very much still in the thick of trying to work out how I feel about myself, I'm being more, I'm more confident that I'm making kinder decisions. So that can just be a niggling thought. That is not something that I would act upon but there are so many younger girls who are a lot more vulnerable and susceptible to hearing and seeing that sort of like vitriol how damaging will that be I think we all have a collective responsibility to be kinder to other women for sure but also it's funny because how far do you draw the line because I say or I wouldn't get surgery but then I still go to the gym and I train my body to look a certain way so that's still

filling in that space I'm still doing something you know to change the way that I look to fit a paradigm of beauty that is that does take over my mind I guess I guess it's being confident with the Fandu Casino Daily Jackpots guaranteed to hitanteed to hit by 11 p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily Jackpots. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day.

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is healthy yeah then I think don't over examine it an awareness of the structures exactly around it hi guys sorry real quick just wanted to interrupt your listening because I have got another time of the month customer here with me uh she's called Becca and she just wanted to talk to you a little bit about how organic tampons changed her life it has changed my life like absolutely complete a couple of years ago I noticed sort of my skin and my body changing my skin was really really dry I was suffering with irritation down there it's red swollen just in pain constantly I first of all panicked thinking have I got an STI do I need to go to the doctors I

noticed my tampon strings were irritating me it wasn't all the time it was when I was on my period so imagine how much worse your period is yeah when your vagina's hurting all the time ended up having to go to the doctors she thought that I had eczema I said are you sure so she gave me two eczema creams and a special body wash to use in the shower used those for a couple of months made absolutely no difference I stumbled across time of the month on Instagram and I really liked like the Instagram page the images what they spoke about it was very open it was refreshing to read people actually talking about periods so I thought I'd try it out I bought them straight after my period because I've had such a bad one so I had to wait three weeks to use these tampons and use them and

had zero irritation honestly less cramps it lasted less time actually took maybe two days off it takes that's amazing every month yeah just i'll never go back just panic by them every month yeah um but you can actually set up a monthly subscription where you say i want x amount of boxes sent to me every three weeks, four weeks. And they just send them out to you, so you don't even have to think about it. Thank you so much for coming on. And hopefully you will have no more vagina problems in the future. So far, so good.

No vagina problems. We're both hashtag no vagina problems. But what I thought was really interesting about your poetry was, yeah, in these stories where you're feeling like your body just wasn't yours and that you were so repulsed by it and i just think that what what women don't realize is that and a massive thing that i think is it's a coming of age thing is the sex part is realizing that oh my god sex is for me as well i didn't know that yeah when you're younger you literally think oh this okay this is happening now this is for him no one tells you that your body is yours it's magical it's amazing a woman's body is freaking insane think about all

the things it does i know every month just to kind of get you ready for life a cisgendered woman's body obviously but then the fact that we tear it apart and we're so scared and we can't believe that sex is even anything to do with us it's almost victorian and yet we live in such a liberal society. You'd think that we would know this stuff. But you were writing that and it made me like cry for the 16 year old in me because I was like, God, I actually just was exactly the same.

I just did not know that my body was worth anything more than whatever some guy thought it was. Exactly. It's really upsetting. Like when, again, I really thought that maybe I just had a bad relationship with sex or with boys or maybe it was from being bipolar or I could have listed off a hundred million reasons why I was behaving that way which I'd somehow managed to justify but never

would I have given myself the grace to go actually it's because you've got such an issue with your body and you have such a lack of confidence in who you are and what is being good enough. And my most life-changing moment, I think, was I was about to go on a date and my friend said, aren't you really nervous? I was like, well, no, I've just changed this idea in my head that, you know, you have to be impressive. I was like, they have to impress me. This is very much a two way interview. And now I've tried to take that into, you know, into the bedroom. Like, this isn't just about you thinking like, whoa, she's a sex goddess, which is hysterical. I now feel like Georgia from Anger Songs perfect oh yeah what what a sex god um but that I'm there yes hello

like look after me like this is this is only and also realizing that it's only fun when two of you are having fun yeah and the other weird thing about that whole day I completely agree the date thing I used to do this a lot with everyone not just with boys just with anyone was I would meet someone and immediately almost like vomit up things I thought they wanted me to like to say and I would be like spending so long trying to figure out what kind of person I needed to shift into to impress this person that obviously they weren't gonna because that's not helpful to amass a person a relationship or anything out of a a conjured up version of yourself that you created to impress them because that's not you so even if they like that version of you which for some reason as a girl you're taught like make them like you make them

like you so you make them like the version of you you're never going to enjoy that that's not about you and you end up I don't know if you've had this but if you have had bad relationships or whatever it's generally because you've tried so hard to make this person like you because they have to want you you haven't even thought about whether or not you like them exactly you have oh my god that that is so it though isn't it I've spent a lot of time thinking about this recently how many situations did I endure as opposed to enjoy and tell myself was wrapped up in you know this sort of sweet seduction which actually wasn't existent it was me telling myself that I had I had to I had to feel this way I had to be there you know if you know for the love of god somebody is showing me attention somebody is suggesting

that I have worth who am I I'm not in a position to turn that away what if that never comes back again exactly it's that idea that you know it's them wanting you is all you need it's not about that's not gonna make you happy it's not about you wanting them no you is all you need. It's not about, that's not going to make you happy. It's not about you wanting them. No, you're just taught as a woman that to be wanted, to be needed, to be loved, to be fancied, to be found attractive is the ultimate goal. Yeah, it is your worth. If you get that. That is your worth. Yeah, it doesn't matter whether they're treating you awfully or whatever, they want you.

I've been in a really bad, like, toxic relationship where I was like, but he like, he was awful to me, but he was like obsessed with me. So that I, I, I didn't even realize he was so horrendous because he like was jealous and that I was like oh that must mean I'm special and he was really controlling and I was like that must mean that he wants me so much to alter himself that really negative idea and I'm I'm I hate to say it but it is brought up from the idea that women are meet women are kind of like just your body you're never really taught to have a personality or a mind or that i don't know it's no and i feel like it's so great that we're having

more and more of this conversation and more women are realizing that that is a product of society and a product of a patriarchal society and that and that is why we are where we are which is so horrendous um but now pulling back on that and I'm realizing you know where you can take back a bit of control and it's so hard it really isn't easy by no means is it you wake up one morning and you feel differently or you wake up one morning and you're more confident but my I feel as though the only way that I've really got here has been through writing it out and being so super honest with myself. Yes.

Which is difficult. And writing the book was hard. Yeah. It made me very upset for a really long time. And there were plenty of things in there that I'd absolutely never discussed with my family certainly not with my friends I'm writing them out like god is that was it really that bad I had no idea it was that bad I'd never never given myself enough justice to feel justified in that pain and to see how

damaging and awful all the sudden being like tiny tiny things that really affect you but that this is what i think is so incredible because this self-introspection this growing pains i think this is how you overcome things it's making yourself uncomfortable and sitting there and just looking at it and i think this is why your poetry is so confronting not just to you but i was reading it and I was confronted with feelings and thoughts and if we bury them it just does not help but talking about the issue with this and the reason we find it hard is we have internalized misogyny we have internalized shame so even when you're just do you ever have a thought about something yourself and you get embarrassed and it's just happening in your own head and you're sat there

going and I go bright red and I think how can I be embarrassed of myself how can shame be so deeply entrenched that I can't even have a thought and what you've done if you've taken those exact thoughts and put them down on paper and that I think is one of the biggest ways to grow up is just to look at yourself objectively because we spend so long shrouding ourselves in lies and perfumes and pretty outfits and diets and lipstick and it's all hidden under there actually probably is someone that's just trying to get out and we're just told that our worth can be dressed up into something really beautiful when actually the real person that we are is probably some dark bits and exactly and and like off the back of that the idea that

our pain is beautiful or it's romantic or you know or that we we we need to be saved or there will be there will come a moment where all of this clicks into place and like this glittery of falling in love or getting married or you know reaching that final weight or you know the way that we are told that these like awful feelings will dissipate yeah and also have like tangible end goals yeah it's not it's about really confronting as you've just said what those feelings are and where they have come from and it's so hard it's so painful it you know it feels as though it's doing a lot more damage than good but as soon as it's out and you can really study

it for what it is you start to realize all these different things about how you feel about yourself, which are actually a lot more simple to change. Yeah. It's where those feelings of yourself have made memories or made stale, horrible thoughts. That's what is so difficult to overcome. But the way that you feel about yourself is so much easier to start picking a way out and working out yeah you know somebody once said to me imagine if you treated yourself as though you were a little girl you would you would you would do everything to protect yourself you know you would you would tell yourself that you're so stupid for not thinking

that you're beautiful or you're so silly for not realizing you have worth or x y and z or for eating properly or being healthy or you know feeling valued or or fortunate you know that is the sort of thing that if you were to raise you know your own little girl that's exactly what you would teach her so why should your inner monologue be any different to yourself no one is body confident 24 7 no one always feels good about themselves but you certainly don't need to be thinking about all the ways that you're awful to make yourself feel better I think as a woman you're almost taught that like as long as you know that you're fat and you know that you look shit and you know that then you're being honest with yourself but really you don't owe it to anyone to look any sort of way or be any kind of woman I don't really know and but even when you you know if you don't

if you don't try and be introspective to the reason why you feel so negatively about that any body change will never make that feeling go away yeah you know it is it is such an emotional thing and it's such a mental um aspect as opposed to a physical transformation because you know I know that like for example the beginning of this year I lost a stone and a half and hadn't realized that I'd done it now had you told me like three years ago that I could lose a stone and a half in three months I'd be besides myself with joy I think I'm gonna be staring at myself in the mirror all the time and suddenly having realized that I'd lost this weight I was looking thinking well now it's possible to be smaller now I know I can get here how do I get rid of this bit oh and now I can see what I look

like with collarbones I wonder what it looks like when I don't have thighs and that was because I hadn't at all looked after yeah where those thoughts and feelings come from and it's only now where I'm starting to see oh okay hang on a minute to fix myself internally yeah it's it's so much more important there really something happened to me so i competed like did like a bodybuilding show and i got the smallest i've said this so many times i feel like the smallest i've ever been and i was like oh my god i'm so small and then nothing's changed all that had happened was my body composition had changed and i really I used to think my whole that was my turning point because my whole time at school I was like I need to do that but if I was skinny then they'd like me and if I was skinny I could

wear this and if I was skinny then everything would be better and everyone would like me more and then I got really small and I was still the same girl and my friends were the same I didn't have any more money I didn't have any more luck I didn't have anything else apart from I was just a bit smaller and then I suddenly was like oh fuck that's done absolutely nothing but we've literally been told so much that smallness it's really about not taking it say it's like being diminutive and small and actually powerless in a funny way it's all as you say about the patriarchy that that will make you happy but I can tell you firsthand that being smaller doesn't make you feel better what makes you feel but I can tell you firsthand that being smaller doesn't make you feel better what makes you feel better is knowing who you are and having the confidence

to be like actually this is who I am take it or leave it you know you're so wonderfully articulate oh really thank you I think you are too I feel like I'm in my own therapy session I keep forgetting that there's a microphone I was like oh do you, do you know, I feel a bit better now. Thank you. Oh my God, stop, you're too fast. I feel calm. Good. I just want to read a little bit of one of Charlie's poems. I mean, all of them are so good.

I'm not just saying that. I was honestly sat there reading it and sometimes wanted to cry. I was just so engrossed. I had to read it again. But this one is about social media kind of thing. It's called Filters. So it says, my eyes a little brighter my teeth a little whiter my skin a little clearer and my hair accidentally a little greener the contrast of exposure is not one that's clearer the definition of a portrait is one of a heavyweight

photoshopper viscoer i feel pretty when i'm told i am i feel petty when it's cold as i'm a bare-faced liar hashtag no filter filter this poem to me well I mean we're both on social media we both have a following we definitely probably are both affected by the idea that you want to put something up but you have I mean Instagram is a visual tool it's about how you look and that pressure is now not just to influencers or Instagrammers or people whose jobs are online but every single person with an instagram account i think the where i notice it the most is my friends that don't have a social like a big social following or people that don't have it as their jobs or

careers yeah and yeah it worries me that i'm a part of that yes and I never really thought that I was you know I was just shoving a filter on something because it looked prettier it made my aesthetic fit or all of that bollocks that you don't really realize that you're you're thinking about and it is fairly divisive but also so damaging to how you look and feel about yourself suddenly it's so normal to look at a picture of you and then go how do I make that better yeah I think you're completely right when you say that it's funny I think when you use Instagram as part of your job you're quite detached I don't think I consume social media in the same way that other people do because I see it behind closed doors a

lot because it's part of my work but I've stopped doing the thing where literally even a week ago I asked my the guy that owns a studio that I PT out of to take a picture of me. But he only took like three because he doesn't know how it works. We need 50. Yeah. And I was like, fuck, I can't ask him to take another one. And I said to him, I was like, I don't know how my tummy's really wrinkly in this picture. And he's like, oh, you can just smooth that out.

And I was so annoyed that I just put it up because I was like, normally I would never smooth anything ever. I know people do that. I just wouldn't do that. But I would have tried to take another picture where it didn't look like that there's nothing wrong with it no one said anything I didn't also want to point it out because I think that's sometimes problematic when people are like look at this picture I know I've got a role it's like well no you're just adding to the problem just normalize it by not saying anything so I did this and like it got good engagement everyone's

like look amazing and I was like oh my god I'm never ever now I'm gonna try and not take a million pictures I'm just gonna take a few and one of them will do because what I do and I have done is I've taken 50 photos I'm like oh I want like that but I want it better so I'll take another 50 like 400 photos later I'm like this is the one and then like half an hour later I'll look back on it and I'm like oh it's not actually that good what the freaking hell is that about and then I don't it's me looking at it though as a as like a creator so I'm like oh my page will look better or people are going to be more interested in my fitness if my photo looks like this it's not really necessarily about me it's more about the consumer whereas when you somebody who doesn't have an Instagram account and my friends will be like oh I'm really worried about how many likes it's going to get or you can't post it this time and it's weird because I was like oh my god I'm the reason that people feel

this way because I'm one of the people that they're trying to get their photos like it's my job so obviously my photos are going to be slightly better quality I'm going to have a bit more time to think about it because like because I need to yeah you know this is this is how I earn a living or this is how I put myself in a more employable position for X, Y and Z. But then also, is that excuse making it even worse, you know, on yourself and on other people? Is it, well, you know, it's my job. Like, oh, but is scrutinising yourself

to a point of making yourself look unrecognisable? Is that your job? Probably not. And it's scary because I do a lot of this is what I feel better because I'm like I always do Instagram stories because people do see me in the gym they will like recognize me and I'm like I'm so glad that I put so many stories up without makeup on or like just sat there because at least I know that when they see me they know exactly what I look like well I've I started to get really concerned about the fact that am I

catfishing myself I do that I actually do though do I sometimes I will look at a photo I posted a photo on Instagram two weeks ago of me I was like god I look good yeah and I hadn't done anything to it I mean okay I hadn't done anything to it I put a VSEO filter on it just to like change the colors I was like yeah wow I can't remember the last time I looked at a photo of me where I thought that and I posted it. And then suddenly all of my friends were like, wow, you look amazing. Or a friend actually texted me saying, I can't stop staring at this picture of you

and I can't work out why. Like, why do you look so different? And I was like, whoa, have I, do I not actually look like that? Am I not justified in feeling good about the fact that I thought I looked good in this photo? And then before you know it, you've spiralled out into a place of maybe I just never post another photo ever again like what is who am I what is real this happened to me I put up a photo one day when I announced my podcast so months ago and I remember thinking I look great

and the same day someone was doing an Instagram story and I'm in the back of it and they were like oh my god so and so's at this event and I watched this video and I screenshot it and sent it to all my friends and went is this what I look like oh my god I genuinely I had to since that point I had to completely readdress so I took photos of myself look at myself because I was so shocked it's just a bad angle I was breathing I looked I was talking I'm quite an animated talker so I'm quite like moving around your body does move and jiggle because we are like a living thing and I was so shocked that I looked like that because I'd put up such like a posed picture I also think the other thing is you do look you obviously do look how you look in that photo like if you haven't photoshopped it that is you as well you can look good and bad but you are

some of all of those things and actually no one looks like their best picture but also no one looks like their worst picture because it's a moment in time and actually when you look at your friends like I see a bad picture of me or I'll see my friend might show me a bad picture of them and I'm like yeah that is what you look like but you don't look like that when I'm looking at you you don't look like that all the time no because you're just moving second that a camera has caught exactly that's not you on an everyday basis um it's also not a version of you that warrants being scrutinized or being overthought. But I think we've all done this. I think we've got to learn our good angles and we've got to learn the way we look. And we're so used to seeing posed bodies that we are really

confused when our bodies don't look like that. And I think that's so damaging. I always look at, you know, before I take a photo of myself, and this is so horrendous to even admit, I will go and look at another Instagram happening how has she done that my favorite person to do this with is Iris Law I'm just completely madly obsessed with her um and just watching the way how she'll suddenly just move her she'll tilt her head a little bit to the left or you know her chin's just slightly up like I want to look like that so I will spend half an hour half an hour of my life trying to get that head tilt down so maybe I look a little bit more like that yeah and when we say this stuff out loud it sounds

ridiculous it's so inane everyone does it even the people that are like the cool girl that you think is just posting those pictures and just looks like that they have six hundreds of the same picture iris law has not done that first time around and i even met someone the other day at an event and i'm not even joking i didn't follow her and then i went on their instagram later and this isn't to slate the guts it just wasn't the same person i just couldn't believe that that was their instagram account and i was like wow because i actually didn't i don't want to believe that people edit their pictures that much but also it's the same with the megan thing she's not the problem the problem is the society that's telling you that you have to look perfect all of the time

in every way your skin has to be smooth you need to be hairless you've got to have no spots your hair needs to be clean like all of that isn't down to that that girl or that Instagram account we're a product of a society that's telling us that you're just simply not good enough. And until we fight back and until all of us individually go, actually, I do, sometimes it's nice to look good. Sometimes I want to be really feminine and really beautiful and really sexy. Other times, this is just my face. And I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way the world works. Exactly. It was like the latest episode of the Hilo, were you listening when they talked about the natural beauty thing do you listen oh no i have most i do i think you're in that one actually really i think pandora talks about your poems because she's on the back of your book isn't she

yeah lovely pandora yeah amazing what a dream um and yeah they were talking about how it's so awful not awful but alex keeps going on natural beauty natural beauty men think they know what natural beauty is from fhm magazines and like adverts where girls have got hashtag no filter no makeup on which is like you know you're doing your no makeup makeup yeah I've got no makeup makeup on today because I've got bb cream on bronzer but I could technically have no makeup on you know that's it it's all this idea when actually sometimes I wake up in the morning and I look like a naked mole rat like my hair is stuck to my head I love that you've said naked mole wrap because that is always my reference point naked mole wrap or potato yeah potato what what I guess the only way that or the smallest change that we can all make to help make that a little bit better

because it is so difficult to disrupt something that is so entrenched in society and it's a big personal burden to feel as though you should be the one that fixes that or you should be responsible for fixing that but I think where we can make a difference is within our reaction to other people and you know the Megan thing for example you know how how we all went to respond to that was was bad it wasn't nice it wasn't kind it wasn't compassionate and we're all so guilty of doing it even if we don't say it out loud you know changing that changing our reaction changing you know this idea that just because somebody is on instagram or somebody has edited a photo so when somebody looks a certain way means that they're not human yeah you know bringing back in the humanity of

somebody has made a conscious choice you know every time I've put a filter on a photo isn't because I want to catfish people into thinking that I am so fit or yeah I'm more attractive I'm doing that because I don't feel attractive enough yeah and any photo that anyone posts on Instagram this is my favorite thing when people say like you're so narcissistic whatever I'm like if you're posting on Instagram you want people to see it otherwise you would just print it out and put it in a drawer there's no one's no one's literally taken apart from maybe my dad but he's a very special case taken one photo on the actual Instagram app who's ever taken the picture on the Instagram app and then just uploaded that my dad

but apart from him very small sample size and and there's also you know that there are elements where there is nothing wrong with that you know we are curating a feed of things's also you know that there are elements where there is nothing wrong with that you know we are curating a feed of things we are you know and the term aesthetic now has a very negative connotation behind it but before that in an artistic sense you know things do you know if you're creating something it has a certain aesthetic and being considered about that is is fine it's being creative but it's you know drawing that line on creativity and then almost like self-mutilation yes I think we have to realize now that Instagram has changed when it was in its conception it was just an image sharing platform you didn't like things I

remember when I first had it you'd literally upload something on there to get a filter and then you put it on Facebook no one could like it so what we need to realize is that Instagram now everyone has a personal brand is a curated thing so we need to stop looking at that like it's real life and take instagram for what it is again like you say i don't think it's a bad thing i think we're we've always been obsessed with beauty from since humanity's existed we love beautiful things we just need to stretch out the parameters of what we think is beautiful to include more diversity whether that's body type skin color gender whatever but we also need to realize that instagram is on an app on your phone exactly and it's never going to be representative it is a

square of something it's not a square of reality yeah it is a square of constructed reality yes when it comes to body image i think i think and growing up and learning about yourself i think you'll find it's linked into so many parts of it. And I think as a woman, it's really over-exaggerated and really over-stressed. And I think it all ultimately does come down to this idea that you are fundamentally there to be ravished and enjoyed by a man. And I think what we need to unpick and change is that actually you're there to be the happiest version of you that you can be. You're there to spread a message that you want to spread. Be friends with whoever you want to be. Sleep with whoever you want to spread be friends with whoever you want to be sleep with whoever you want to sleep with do whatever you want to do and then at the end of all that if you still want to wax and make

upon and put a filter on that's fine but that's not what's defining you am i right ladies say it louder for the people at the back yeah i could not possibly add any more to that you've just sort of dug into my brain and I I literally did you do need to dig into Charlie she's got a very good brain she's actually put it down on pay-per-view it's it's it's fantastic I would my brain now has a barcode yeah that's pretty exciting no but it is it is incredible and I feel like I don't know if we've talked about it enough we talked oh we have I mean you know the come on like the best way to get a sense of the book is just to pop onto amazon no that's shameless self-promotion is always so grim isn't it but it really does cover I feel so many of the things that we've spoken about in in more bite-sized chunks and I think

what's so lovely about the title is the she must be mad narrative it's not exclusive to someone with a mental illness because about 10 times when we were talking before I was like it's just mad I must be mad this is mad because there's so many things for instance like when we were saying the things you think about your body or the way you look at pictures you're like this is insanity we all have these weird narratives in our mind and these inner voices that are that really are nonsensical because when you draw it out when you put it on a piece of paper you're like this makes no sense and that is why it's so important to acknowledge those feelings and not just bury them in shame and draw them out

and realize that actually no one is sane some people have varying degrees of sanity but there is no one out there that is normal or sane and if there were they'd be really boring yeah oh they just simply would not exist no it's just not possible you know the way that our brains work and the way things manifest and you know how we become the people we are or how we become the women that we're supposed to be that is a myriad of so many different yes you know tiny fleeting vignettes of your life or how you've like felt about things or things that you've struggled with or you know even times where you've not necessarily been the best most authentic version of you yeah all of that has to come together in a smattering of sort of bang yeah here it all is here are all these things these are why

they make me who I am and And that's fine. Yes. Do you know, you just reminded me of one of my most favourite quotes, which is, edit your life frequently and ruthlessly because it is your masterpiece. And that was something that when I read it, I was like, oh, it's my life. I would get it now. I can be happy. Right, that's not dictated to me by anyone else. And that works for body image, confidence, friendships, love, parental relationships,

anything. You really do have the autonomy to make those changes. Realising that you are allowed to be happy is one of the most powerful things I've ever gifted myself because sometimes I think whether it's through poor mental health or through mental illness it is so easy and forgivable to forget that sometimes you don't realise that you are allowed to be happy and just because sometimes you are suffering or sometimes things are difficult doesn't mean that has to be your point of comfort no and there's there's not one thing about you that makes you not worthy whether you're fat skinny disabled transgender anything if you've got mental illness anything none of those things mean that you are not allowed

to just exist to be happy. That is your right as a human and you need to be able to realise that and take it. Exactly. Bring back the humanity and humanness, please. Yes, please. No more robots, I'm scared. No.

Hey, I can go. Go away, Elon Musk. Elon Musk is the reason why I feel this way. Yeah, well, to be fair, probably is his fault. Makes sense. I have loved this chat. So have I. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. It's been the best. Should we go get lunch? Yeah, I feel cleansed. I do too. I think this is something, just get your girlfriends, sit down and just say all the shit that you tell yourself every day and then just realise how ridiculous it is.

I think also what has been so powerful is we have literally just met each other I know we met what three three hours ago and I whirled into your apartment like hello I'm gonna tell you my life story now I just said things out loud I've never said that I've never said but how it's so powerful to do that and giving yourself the opportunity to just be really honest. Yeah. Because more often than not, you find that other people are going through exactly the same thing and are making the same mistakes or finding the same truths. Yeah.

And this is such a good feeling. I feel wonderful. I'm glowing. I do too. You are glowing. You look fab. So do you. Oh, thanks so much.

Okay, guys, thank you so much for listening. You can find Charlie on Instagram at... CharlieCox1. Charlie with a Y. glowing you look fab so do you oh thanks so much okay guys thank you so much for listening you can find charlie on instagram at charlie cox one charlie with a y cox with an x yes hashtag adulting and you can buy her book she must be mad available from all good bookshops yes all the bad ones don't sell it that's why they're bad. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay. Bye. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

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