Adulting - #12 Marriage, Babies & The Bits In Between - Sophia M-Coutts

Episode Date: August 5, 2018

This week I speak to author and journalist Sophia Money-Coutts (@sophiamcoutts) about her new novel 'The Plus One'. We discuss everything from sex to imposter syndrome! Hope you enjoy! https://sophiamoneycoutts.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. This is the podcast where I discover that actually we're not as grown up as we once thought that we were and today I'm joined by Sophia Moneykoots. Hello. Hello. Sophia is a journalist and author and she has just published her first book yes the plus one the plus one yeah it's out uh next week and it's um yeah the plus one it's about my very chaotic but hopefully lovable heroine uh polly who has just turned 30 and is at that stage of life when all her mates are sort of 10 stages ahead of her in terms of relationships and babies and houses and blah blah work and promotions um

and she's not but she works for posh magazine and then one day she gets invited to yorkshire to interview this playboy son of a duke and dun dun dun all unfolds from there it's amazing i love i love posh magazine because i just know you can just see so many parallels in it it is really good and it's hailed as like the new kind of bridget Jones vibe isn't it yes really gratifyingly people have said that I sort of crossed between I mean it sounds very arrogant saying this um I sort of crossed between Bridget Jones and Jilly Cooper nice sort of the vibe yeah I think um which is lovely to hear and Jilly bless Jilly gave me a quote for the front I mean I was quite intimidated she said the sex in my book made her feel like a nun I love because it starts

it comes in quite soon as well because I'm not that far in and I was sat with my boyfriend and he was like what have you just read and it's the bit where she brings him back and I was just like oh my god I feel violated oh no god sorry no it's really well written because it's really

because it is like you're there in the moment well what I really wanted I really wanted the sex scenes to be realistic and then not in a 50 shades way or in a sort of silly way or in a too romantic a way i just wanted them to be what women would be thinking so there's this scene i don't want to give any spoilers away but yeah there's a scene where polly comes back with someone and she has to sort of give him a blowjob and she's down there and she's just like oh for god's sake my legs are sore and smells and my thighs are burning and how much longer and I just really wanted other women to read that and be like oh my god that's so true yeah and I love the internal monologue that she's having as well because that's my favorite thing

like the amount of things that you think about which have nothing to do with your boyfriend or whoever you're sleeping with at the time you're just like what is that have I put the washing on and then you're like oh right what's going on oh yeah yeah concentrate I really I really found that really funny and I do think it's so important that we in this sex positive time are making sure that we are it is messy and wet and gross and it's not weird noises yeah oh god what's he doing now and oh actually that doesn't feel that nice and oh no stop it that all that sort of thing I just feel like yeah have you had many men reading it and feeling shocked? Because I feel like they almost,

obviously not a lot, but I feel like a broad spectrum of guys would read that and be shocked because I genuinely think they even see sex in a pornified way in their own experience. Yeah. They kind of like impose that idea. And they're like,

oh, it's such an honour that you're down there. Yeah. Enjoy it. Yeah. Well, my boyfriend actually, I think, was quite sort of he read it he was like oh um and actually I wrote most of the book before we got together but um because Polly obviously is quite like me I think first books your heroine probably tends to be quite like you

um Lloyd my boyfriend definitely read it thinking that I was Polly and that he got quite annoyed it was hilarious he was annoyed that this character yeah he got jealous it's really sweet it's like oh god all this stuff that that you're doing and I was like well it's not me is it it's a fictional character it's Polly um so so yeah that was one reaction um my dad's reaction was quite interesting oh no I couldn't cope well I'm very lucky I've got a sort of very open family so we talk about sort of sex and stuff it's fine but dad reading that sort of blowjob scene and then repeating lines back to me I remember I was in the car with him at one point and he was repeating lines back to me and you know um you know in Lady Bird have you seen Lady Bird no I need okay I swapped it the other day there's a scene in Lady Bird it's in the trailer actually when they're driving I think she's off to uni and her mum is

sort of yakking on and she's she says mum stop and she basically she and just opens the car and rolls out and I did feel a bit like doing that with my dad was he laughing about it no he was totally laughing he was totally laughing um but it was a sort of it was like the reverse of my dad wrote a porno it was a very weird scenario having your dad move your sex lines back to you sort of chuckle about them so have you had that a lot have you had a lot of people thinking that these are like first-hand experience I mean obviously it's going to be based off some kind of experience but you had to be like this isn't actually my autobiography um yeah I have had to make that clear because obviously also I should say I worked at Tatler

for five years so obviously that's what Posh magazine is based on yeah and so yes obviously it is a it is a bit autobiographical um but I mean I don't mind the fact that people might think the sex scenes are autobiographical because I think we have all got better at talking about this kind of stuff right so whether it's poly or whether it's an experience that I've had it's all up for discussion right yeah everything's more out in the open so I guess that's a good thing so I guess with the posh and the tatler parallels was there any was anyone affronted by any of that yeah I was quite worried there was a moment moment when it was all announced. And I hadn't made a secret while I was working at Tatler

that I was writing a book or that it was a book. If anyone had asked, I would have said, yeah, it's sort of set in this magazine, this posh magazine. But then, yeah, very kindly, the Londoner's Diary on the Evening Standard did a sort of diary story when it was announced saying, oh, Sophia Monikoutz gives Tatler the Devil Wears Prada treatment. And I was obviously thrilled. I was like, yes, Devil Wears Prada treatment and I was obviously thrilled yes that was amazing brilliant and my editor poor Kate got a bit freaked out I think

and had to sort of have words and I felt I just felt awful and then wanted to really reassure her so I gave her a copy and it's fine yeah but it's funny and it's fiction and it's also it's just it's just a hyperbolic version of yeah and we all know that those kind of stories and that kind of gentrified idea it does exist yeah it's there and also it's affectionate i don't i never want to be sort of mean or bitchy about anything i want to sort of be tongue-in-cheek i suppose yeah and have a laugh but not at anyone's expense yeah it's just a bit of satire really isn't it yeah exactly nice yeah um but what else i think i wanted you to talk to talk to you about was as a woman I mean there's a lot of stress obviously in the in the novel and the concept about feeling that at a certain age you're supposed to have a boyfriend or you're supposed to be I hate that kind of like

you like a man's gonna fix your life or whatever but what about in terms of career because like you said you and Polly both have fantastic careers, you're doing really well. And yet, even as a woman in an amazing position, you feel like, oh, God, I need a man to make my narrative better. Yeah, I think that just has been always the narrative, hasn't it? And again, I think we're getting better at talking about it and realising that you can be absolutely perfectly fine and more than fine, very happy on your own. And God, you know, thank God for that um because I can't bear that thing of you know I sit we can see it I've been in that place um I think most of us have where you think oh if only if only I met someone then everything would be perfect then everything would be sorted and then you might meet someone and you might have a really wonderful amazing relationship but that's still

not everything's not sort of as it were sorted I remember actually once a friend of mine who got she got married and a single friend of hers said some remark along the lines of well it's all right for you because you're married as if once you get married oh you just everything's fine exactly you completed life and that's fine and there's no you don't have anything to deal with after that um but but i mean it's it's really not true so yeah it's that thing of you have to sort of sort yourself out first before you go looking for someone else to fix you yeah that doesn't work it's a really interesting because i haven't reached that age i'll say i'm 24 my sister's like in this bit where a lot of her friends getting married and my neighbor upstairs is saying she's at a point where she's the only one that's not married

babies and she's like i don't even want kids yet but i can't be involved in the social fun anymore it's really hard because the fun revolves around the babies and the husbands yeah she's she's like about to get married but I was like god that's so interesting I'd never thought about it like that she was like I actually need to have a kid now to be like to hang out with my friends because then you forget that that gets flipped yeah and then it's all about play dates and birthday parties and christenings and yeah I mean like yeah I am not married I don't have children but I do spend quite a lot of time with my mate's children and it's so fun for a bit and then you're a bit like oh no that's actually enough

enough like Peppa Pig are most of your friends married now in your friendship? I would say yeah I reckon so I'm 33 and I reckon the seesaw between the number of mates

who are married versus not probably swung say like two years ago and I felt like more people were married than weren't and that

I was single at the time I mean I had really I had a very dodgy sort of relationship in the past that made me feel really low for a long time and I was in that place of oh my god what's wrong with me I'm never going to meet anyone never going to meet anyone and and again then I just focused I mean this book partly came out about that I just sort of thought right I've got to focus on something else um and and then I it's so annoying, that expression of it happens when you least expect it, isn't it? It's so annoying. But I do think, can you talk a bit more about what happened in that relationship then?

Yeah, it was just one of those relationships. I think I was always a sort of, I was a bit of a late starter, I guess, with boys. I was sort of, at school, I was sort of tall and chubby and kind of, I was like the funny one, right? So I was the girl that boys would sort of, I of I joke with but they never wanted to snog me so at like parties or socials or whatever other girls would be sort of snogging in the corner and I'd be like oh here I am sort of hovering waiting awkwardly um and so I think what what happened was when there was someone then did come along and I'm talking now about sort of at university and then even after university in my 20s someone would come along who

was vaguely interested and they might not have been the right person in many ways but I was just like yay I've got a boyfriend I'm like a normal person I'm like everyone else around me and I've got this boyfriend so I'm really going to cling on even though it could be a total disaster and I'm not saying this is true with all my past relationships but certainly yeah um an ex-boyfriend of mine it was it was really damaging and he's quite a complicated character I've written a story recently about it and I mean I know I was unquestionably head over heels in love but it was completely the wrong sort of kind of love like that passionate toxic kind of love really toxic it was like we were addicted to one another. Yeah. And it was so all-consuming. And he had a complicated scenario with an ex-girlfriend of his.

And it was just, it really sort of screwed my head up for a while. And it was right at the stage when all my best girlfriends were getting married. So me breaking up with him at the same time as they were all going down the aisle really messed me up for a bit, I think. And I just, I was totally in that place, like I said, god what's wrong with me it's never gonna happen it's so weird because that passionate I've had that way you think that passionate love is like this must be right this is all the films exactly this is like poets have talked about we make love it's like amazing and then you realize like I'm in a relationship now where it's just nice yeah it's just calm we don't argue yeah not and I'm like oh this is what this is it but you can't see that doesn't

translate into a film or like no there's no really ways to kind of drop to dramatize it you you actually disband the whole idea that yeah i really thought for my whole youth that love was this like yeah exactly fire yeah passion and that's what i would find so i'd find someone that was completely antagonistic to everything i wanted to make that kind of yeah this, this is what we've been taught that we shouldn't have. Well, it's a bit like, so the intro of my book, right, have you seen Sense and Sensibility, the film? Yeah, ages ago, though. I saw that.

I think I must have been maybe 12 or 13 when I saw that, right? And it's still, like, one of my favourite films ever. I am obsessed with it. But there is that scene when Kate Winslet, Marianne, goes off, she's heartbroken after Willoughby breaks her heart, and then she goes off walking when they get to that friend's house on the way back from London to look at his house distantly over the hill, and it's incredibly romantic, and she's sort of all sad and crying,

and the storm sweeps in, and then she gets this fever, and she nearly dies. She nearly dies because she's so heartbroken. And I genuinely, having seen that at a very impressionable age, sort of thought that nearly dying for love was like the appropriate level of drama for a relationship. But I think when you're younger as other,

you do think, funnily enough, when I was at school, I actually used to date the boyfriend that I'm going out with now. Oh no way. Not like officially or anything.

But when it ended, I remember lying in bed listening to Bon Iver and literally feeling like I was going to die. I've had more serious breakups since then and not been as like

deathly. Oh my God, I was like, like bawling we've been together for like a month or something like it wasn't even if we weren't even going out but when you're little things just you feel things so deeply which is kind of wonderful yeah but it is wonderful right like it was tracy chapman for me i used to wail to her yeah and also adele someone like you unfortunately came out then when i had like my big breakup that was the worst oh passenger

passenger big song when i broke up with my ex let her go oh my god I was on my gap that was emotional that's such a good song but literally now I almost can't listen to it because I'm like oh god that puts me in a really bad place I love passenger which is not that song yeah I know I do actually have so many songs but I also weirdly I love wallowing and stuff like that every now and then a good wallow is amazing I love a good cry sorry boyfriends oh yeah your friends being married oh yeah so that was a really bad moment for me and then yeah so I sort of concentrated on work I dated a few people between him and my current boyfriend but it was sort of quite unsuccessful and I was in a sort of dodgy place and so yeah I just sort of focused on work and again it's it's just it's such an old cliche but

it is time I think when you've had a really dramatic heartbreak like that you just need to sort of let it be and subside a bit and then get on with normal life um and yeah and then do you feel like when you're saying I was focusing on work do you think in the back of your mind there was always that idea that you needed to meet someone but you just weren't pursuing that or do you think you genuinely were like I'll just do work now and then suddenly a time came when you wanted to date again I think there was always in the back there's always in the back of my mind where is where is he when am I going to meet him and I think you know I see it with girlfriends now you go to sort of you go out for dinners or you go to weddings I remember being single and going to weddings and being sort of a

bit frantic about like oh who are the single guys here you're gonna like kind of looking around who's the single guy here and who am I gonna snog and i don't think i've ever snogged anyone random at a wedding i don't know i'm trying to think anyway but you do go to also to a dinner party or something you know and you just think right who's the single person because and or you'd be sat next to someone who was married at a wedding you'd think well that's a waste isn't it because i'm not gonna end up snogging you no we're gonna speak to you and you get into that sort of frame of mind which is really psychotic and so bad for you, but you can't help it.

I think you're like that when you're all single, though, because I remember at uni, it was really fun when we were all single, because we'd all go out like a pack of wolves and be scouting. It's not fun when only one of you is single, because now most of us are all in relationships, so when you go out,

you just go out to dance with girlfriends, but if one person's single, they want to chase the night, and you're like, no, I'm going home at one. I know. And it's funny, that dynamic that changes, but it is so bad, because I don't know if guys do the same thing well if they do it's sort of more again because they're men it's sort of more accepted isn't it yeah men definitely go out

and think or i'm gonna pull i'm gonna pull tonight whereas yeah i still think for girls it's a bit sort of it might be deemed a bit sort of unseemly in a way i don't know i think i think that is a because i do have girlfriends who like we're gonna go out and pull tonight or even get laid yeah great i mean how good is that i've actually got a few friends who are all single i know i'm in the happiest relationship ever but the other day they were all like we're all gonna go out and get laid and i was like that's actually i'm quite jealous that sounds good and they're all they're all single and i was like oh and why have i missed this party i feel like i was always in a relationship when everyone else was single that's difficult the waves isn't it the of where you are versus where your friends are.

Oh, there's definitely waves of breakups and we just had a wave of breakups and I was like, oh my God, is this me? No, I missed it. Oh shit, why the next? Okay, fine, so you rode that one out.

I rode that one out. But that definitely does happen. Yeah, 100%. But in terms of getting married now, what's your view on that? Would you want to get married? I'm quite weird about getting married. I never was one of those girls who dreamt about the wedding and the dress and the marquee or whatever.

I just never. I don't know if it comes from being the child of divorced parents. My parents separated when I was eight. My dad and mum actually both remarried within a couple of years. But then my mum divorced again when I was 18. So I sort of grew up with divorce, I think, very present. And I guess that maybe has informed me a bit I don't know I always have this debate if you're the child of divorced parents are you more likely to

get divorced because you know that divorce isn't that big of a deal you know it happens and life goes on or are you less likely because you're so determined to make it work and believe in yeah and and really make a relationship last unlike your. I don't know the answer to that. I just do know that I am very wary of marriage. And I am always thrilled, pretty much, when yet another friend, you know, sticks a picture up on Instagram of their hand and their engagement picture. And I love a wedding. But I do, it feels like such a rush. You know, it starts in the late 20s and then it carries on for years.

Like, I go to weddings and I think oh are you is this a are you doing this because everyone else is doing it I think this is where my cynicism is as well because I also think this also might just me be me trying to be like make everything into like oh it's because we do this and I'm like why do you need to get married it's such an old-fashioned thing I'm not remotely religious yeah if I got married I certainly wouldn't do it in a church. And then if I got, yeah,

I'd have to write something else. At the end of the day, I'm like, fair enough. You can buy me a massive rock. I will wear a ring. But like, do we need to get married?

I don't know. But then I don't know if that's just me being annoying and nitty gritty about like, because my boyfriend would just be like, it's just a nice thing to just do it for your family. Just do it. You know? Well, yeah, no,

my boyfriend feels very strongly about it. And, and because, you know, he wants to, and we actually, it it's great we have really open conversations about it and i have from the very beginning in fact i've just written a piece in which i mentioned this i think boys do this quite often at the start of a relationship on late like maybe date five or six lloyd said to me oh i'm never getting married by the way and i think they do it as a sort of test it's like are you a psycho are you glenn close or like where do you fall on that scale so i instantly shot back oh actually yeah no me neither and he then

looked at surprise i was like oh what oh that's so funny um just well my family divorced so i just have never really pictured it i'm a bit weird about marriage and he was like oh and then it came up again quite early quite a few times he's like well if you don't want to get married like why are we even why are we doing this and in my head you totally don't have to be in a relationship the end goal of a relationship isn't marriage no i don't have an issue with being with someone and having children with them and and hopefully having a very happy life with them and not getting married i think the really weird thing about relationships in general is that um you project so much of the future that like people

are constantly thinking about what's gonna happen in the future that you don't enjoy the now yeah and that's why i think breakups are so hard you could have been going out with someone for two years but you technically you've gone out with them for 40 because you planned like yeah your wedding your kids so when you break up you're breaking up like a whole life yeah yeah and i think people would enjoy i think also i think i was speaking about this before but this the idea of monogamy being so absolute every single time you get into a relationship makes the idea in of itself slightly redundant because every single time i've gone out with someone obviously you think they're the one yeah yeah so by like by proxy clearly that doesn't so i just i don't know i just feel this idea of

like condemning a relationship to have to fit into marriage yeah well also just yeah the pressure of it i mean my brother uh i love him he's quite hippie he's he once said to me soft life is about a series of beautiful relationships it's not necessarily just about one and i kind of agree i would love to be i mean i hope i am with my boyfriend forever and ever you just you don't know do you and i think why can't you take each month each year as it comes and not put the pressure of standing in a church as you said when very few people now believe in those um religious sentiments anyway promising to be together forever when you know we live until we're sort of 900 these days it's a really long time that's the thing they were saying like if we lived until we're like 200 imagine you're having children

be such a small portion of your life yeah yeah you would actually they you might even get to the point where you wouldn't even really know your children or you certainly wouldn't know that all of their children's children. Yeah. I don't know. I just find it very interesting. I completely agree with the idea that also divorce, it's really funny because divorce is so common and people get with each other so frequently.

But the idea of being like, I'm going to go into a relationship to enjoy it for however long it lasts, whether that brings me children as well. And that's really, people are like, you can't say that. I know. Exactly. You have to believe. And you do believe it's rather, otherwise you probably wouldn you probably wouldn't engage otherwise why would you bother at all but i just think it's a very strange idea that when we realize that actually divorce is quite

common and that things aren't necessarily forever and and also just the trajectory of lives especially probably with women being more um mobilized in society and doing more things the trajectory we're working off is based off of such old ideas yeah it doesn't really translate into life now no the one sort of immovable thing is is the our women's biological clocks right so i had a um i went to see my gynecologist the other day did he very personal detail and he um he was like and i i was just talking about children and in general very much in general and i was saying because you know in an ideal world I wouldn't for five six years because I wouldn't because I feel like I'm having such a lovely time now I've gone freelance and I've got this book coming out and I'm going to write another one

and I'm doing so much cool stuff and I'm so happy with Lloyd and we have a lovely time and I see friends with babies who are shattered and exhausted and women obviously because it just naturally still does fall to them have to put their lives and their jobs more on hold it's really tough and and my gynecologist looked at me and sort of you know grimaced a bit and he went if i can give you one bit of advice and i'm not really meant to but if i can i would say in the next two years and you're suddenly like because that changes so much and if you and and yeah so he's basically saying get on with it this is exactly what i had this conversation with my boyfriend because he said i remember get on with it this is exactly what i have this conversation with my boyfriend because he said i remember enough he denies this but it wasn't even a date we're

just on a walk somewhere because we're friends i'll do something and he was like i want to have kids before i'm 30 and i remember being like what the heck that's like a few years but also if i could choose to and i knew i could i would wait until i was 40 that's when i'll probably be ready realistically with my career yeah exactly where i want to be i'll be financially stable years old which probably won't happen for a while especially houses at the minute and i just don't think that i just think that's too soon i'm just not ready to have a kid yeah and it kills me and also i can't afford to freeze my eggs and like it's it's so stressful i just don't think guys ever really realize that feeling of like well just how much we still will be sacrificing compared to them yeah i know some

people will probably say it's unfair but it's it it's true if i look at my girlfriends you've all had babies they have put their lives on hold a hell of a lot more than the guys and when i did an episode with the gynecologist and she was saying realistically she was like all these people say you should get tested and see about your fertility and she's like i would advise any woman personally so if you haven't had a baby and you haven't had the right man just just and maybe try and find a way to do it later on in life but don't force it she was like because I think what you'll find is you'll she was like I do have lots of women who will just are they'll do a test to find out they're fertile find out that maybe it's running out of time and go and literally find a man yeah have a baby with him

and then actually your life in a funny way is almost worse off than if you'd just seen what happened and maybe adopted or never knew and just didn't try to in four years time someone came along because the other narrative

is that you have to have a baby as a woman you shouldn't want to have a kid so even if you didn't want one and you didn't think you wanted one if you suddenly get told it's running out of time

people must just go star crazy and think shit I've got a so in my head I've slightly got a two year timer now and that just does put

a lot more pressure on a relationship I think and yeah as you said I don't even know when I go to my friends you know children's birthday parties or go around for dinner I do sometimes look at and think but do I really I mean I'm not actually very broody I don't have that thing in me yet maybe it suddenly kicks in one morning when you wake up um so I definitely am not there yet um so yeah I don't even know if i want that at all but here's your doctor saying do it do it think about it it's just terrifying it's a bad that i'm annoyed that he's a man saying that as well he's actually the loveliest man in the whole world so i didn't feel too cross him i know he's only wanting to sort of give you the option do what say what's

best but it does put a whole lot of pressure i mean in my head i'm always still amazed frankly that i can drive and I pass my driving test. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm sort of 17. I don't feel like I should be weighing up whether to have a child or not. This is what I think. I just feel so much younger than... I don't know.

I just can't believe that there are people doing fully fledged jobs. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I just feel like it's... And it's funny because when you're like 16, I remember thinking someone's 23 or 25. So old. So old.

So mature. I know know i'm really glad that they've now said that you're not officially an adult to like 25 because it used to be it was 18 i think psychologically now they said it's 25 can we just push it back yeah later and later yeah i know um it's madness yeah but yeah so moving on talking about that actually and careers wise and things how did you because i think what a lot of people and I myself get this as well we're talking about imposter syndrome yeah and in your work and now did you know what you want to do when you're younger how did you get into this path yeah I was quite lucky I think in that I did know that I wanted to write and be a journalist my mum's a lot of my mum's side of the family are journalists so I sort of grew up hearing about it and I mean maybe it was

quite naive and I just assumed in an arrogant way oh that's what I'm gonna do who did your mum write for um she wrote for a lot of sort of country magazines her father was a journalist and writer and edited Telegraph for many years and his son my uncle went to work for Telegraph for many years his son my cousin now works for the mayor another one used to work there and so there's just various sort of journalists peppered around basically so a bit like well like any careers that run in the family you sort of assume well that's what i'll do yeah um and then i realized i went to lse for uni london school of economics where everyone is going off to be an incredibly high-powered lawyer or banker or consultant and i was like the class clown because I was going to go off and be a journalist

What made you choose LSE then? Because I didn't get into Oxford twice and actually I'm not sure I would go to London again now I think if I could go back I would Get the uni experience I totally didn't have that Both my sisters went to London uni and they're like there's no point

you just hemorrhage money and you don't I went out with my tutor for two and a half years so amazing yeah so I never want to take it back because he um we're still really good friends and he's wonderful so I never wait this is the best one why have you written a book about that so yeah well he was um in my first year I took a um political philosophy course and he taught political oh my god I can only tell you so exactly like American talking about Rousseau and things um and and yeah I always sort of had a bit of a crush and then towards the end of the year we were having mock exams and I emailed him

saying I couldn't make one of the mock exams I'd messed up my dates and actually at the time um I was blonde I'm brunette but I was blonde back then and I said I'm really sorry I've been so blonde um but uh I just messed up the date so can i do another mock date and he came back i mean you'd probably get in trouble for saying this now and said absolutely fine don't worry about it it's ps i've always wondered do blondes have more fun i mean so cringe actually oh my god no but that's so much fun how old are you 18 i was no 19 that is the most fun thing that could ever happen in your life. Oh my God. Well, that was it. So I then sent, I mean, like the world's most cringe email back saying.

Was this on your uni email? Have a drink and find out. Yeah, I think it was both on mine. So bad. So good. Anyway, so yeah, we should. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do.

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Please play responsibly. Have a drink and find out. And actually, our first date was in Brixton. So, because he lived in Peckham and I was living in Brixton at the time. How old was he? So, he was... I mean, he's not like...

When I said tutor, he's not like 900 years old. He was 34, so 15 years old he was 34 so we had a really young sexy scottish teacher that we all tried to flirt with and he just shut it down we all went hi martin he went all right girls and just walked off and we went bye and i think he actually hated it because in this day and age as well you just you can get in so much trouble because i think he just had to like yeah go away anyway yeah so we went on the first night in brixton he was yeah so he was 15 years older than me which yeah isn't i mean so he was 34 at the time which and that's basically my age now but at the time it seemed sort of very much older anyway and we but we did go out for

two and a half years and it was sort of sexy for the first bit because we had to keep it secret at uni such fun um and but then i i was sort of it was wonderful but it was one of those things i was really young i wanted to sort of go off and have a venture and live abroad so we broke up and it was yeah that was my first sort of real

major breakup looking back now because I think of my 19 year old self she was an absolute dickhead and also like an actual child

do you think look back and like feel like you were old because I felt and now I look back and I'm not even that much older than that I'm only 5 years older

but my god I think I've changed so much sometimes although sometimes do you ever look back and think I think I was maybe more wise then oh my god no I can't wisdom and I make sort of weirder decisions now oh no I was actually awful I remember I the one thing I really remember actually with his with the relationship with him was an absolute lack of jealousy about anything which is like I suppose because at 19 you're a sort of blank slate you haven't got much emotional baggage hopefully and I remember once I was never like he had he'd broken up fairly recently with his ex and he was going to stay with her family in France

for a weekend and I was just like yeah cool fine like don't worry about it did you think he washed at the ground you walked did you feel very much like because you were this young student but i think it went both ways like we were we were i you know loved him and he loved me and it was a sort of quite a grown-up relationship despite the age gap but god if now laurie said to me yeah i'm just gonna go and um go and stay with my ex-girlfriend and her family for the weekend i'd be like are you kidding me i'd lose my shit and so maybe it's because you're young and you just haven't you haven't developed sort of all those like i guess if no one's ever broken your trust yeah then you wouldn't have a reason to i've had to go the opposite so i was fine then i got jealous because i'm broken to us and i've had to train myself not to be jealous because otherwise you

can carry jealousy with you into situations that don't warrant any yeah it's so pointless i'm so destructive i hate it it's a really hideous horrid sort of gremlin that sits in your head and can just pop up and say and just needle you with little things i remember it was i had a manager at bergman lobs when i used to work as a student and i remember her just saying something to me like jealousy only affects you it doesn't fix anything and i remember something just switched my head and then if i ever got jealous and she was oh this was it she was like once my boyfriend cheated on me and everyone was like you should have got jealous that you could have seen it coming

but she was like but I would have just gone through it twice she was like if they're going to do something they're going to do it whether or not you're sneaking through their phone

or whether or not you tried to catch them out so she was like you just have to implicitly trust someone until they prove you wrong well also you can when you see it in other

if I see it in friends say jealousy or say on like Love Island if you could see some of the women being jealous it's a really unattractive thing but when you're in the grip of it you it feels like you can't help yourself and trying to turn off that bit of your brain and reassure yourself

is really hard i think i very rarely feel anxious and one of the only times i feel anxious is when i feel fear of like like jealousy yeah it's one of those emotions it really like stops me in my tracks well it's also all consuming isn't it yeah you can go down some sort of instagram phone hole and be like what am i doing how am i filming myself i know it's so bad but the worst thing is with girls as well we'd put it like in a group chat and you'd all just come up with this whole scenario from like one thing yeah and then they'd be like he didn't text me back and we were like oh my god it's s and you just find out that like his phone had died in fact actually i did this on the weekend i lloy Lloyd and I went out for lunch and I left my phone at home I just forgot it and I needed we were having lunch with some of my friends and so he didn't have the number so I was like oh come on I just sign into Instagram

on your phone yeah and um send them a message so he signed in and he tapped I was like um I was like oh he's called Tom and his girlfriend and he was typing in his girlfriend's name and and an ex-girlfriend of Lloyd's came up and I was like oh and he was like why were you looking at that and I was like oh my god because he literally mentioned her in brief the other day seeing her at something he's been away

and I'd then been that psycho the people that I stalk you don't know my mum loves it I mean we can all be completely rational women on the face of it can't we but underneath with I do think I mean I could write a book about Instagram I stalk people that my friends don't like can you know it's quite nice to sort something you don't like yeah I don't really have anyone I don't like anymore so I have to stalk that's healthy yeah I think that's but who are you

gonna stalk exactly so I started talking with my girlfriends didn't I kind of like you're annoying and it's really bad and then they're like oh that's who I thought it's really there is like a real pleasure it's a horror it's a very weird thing like hate stalking it's a thing yeah i mean i just yeah it's terrible it's really bad you find yourself going down this hole and you just can't stop it i know it is social media is really awful and i do have that absolute fear i'm like one day i'm gonna get caught and i'm just gonna like this girl's picture yeah exactly i know i feel the fear in me yeah I know it's gonna happen one day you almost know you don't want it to happen I was thinking like do you almost want it to happen a bit but no you really don't like this happened with isn't that the five second rule though supposedly someone's told me

before on Instagram if you accidentally like a picture and then unlike if their phones are locked it's fine as long as they're not on it but if they're lock screen it doesn't matter what you do it'll stay there oh but yeah that is all I actually think it's so bad talking about stalking like stuff like that because you say it out loud and you just think i know but if we at least we say it out loud then it's accepting everyone does it right yeah i mean it's just one of those bad things um but what other things career no we've got yeah because hang on we got completely diverted yeah sorry so so anyway so lse was yeah it was more about my mad uh sort of yeah um not mad lovely relationship with my tutor anyway and then, so I knew I wanted to be a journalist.

I was at LSE, but everyone was getting, like, very lucrative trainee schemes for, like, Goldman Sachs. And they were all going off to banks. And I was like, oh, my God, how do you? There aren't really lucrative trainee schemes for newspapers or magazines. So I went to work for a sort of what's called contract publishing, which is if a business like Sainsbury's or British Airways wants a magazine then they approach a publishing house and pay them to produce a magazine so British Airways does have one Sainsbury's does have one I went to work um for one a magazine that did sort of

ludicrously posh they did the magazine for Annabelle's the club oh yeah Aspinall's the casino stuff because just someone had said oh they're looking for like a features assistant basically so I did that in my uni summer holidays and then from there got an interview for the evening standard uh for a job on the features desk there basically and had a terrible interview because I was so nervous and sweat I couldn't stop sweating um but I think because I was I mean I did work for free I think for. She, the then editor Veronica Wadley took me on. And that was kind of it. I think once you've got your, in industries like journalism, once you've got your foot in the door,

it's just sort of up to you to really cling on like a limpet and do whatever you can do to, you know, put yourself out or go and get your, I remember buying my boss's tights and getting coffee and just doing all that crap because you've just got to hang on. Well, I think in any like content creating industry, you just have to push out as much, like to the point where you're just constantly doing all the time yeah it's a really difficult one i think because i saw this with people who came into work experience

at tatler of trying to be sort of helpful and nice and not annoying but also you want to be like i've written this thing or i've done this thing or can you take a look at this and yeah i get it how do you platform yourself in like a situation where i think i've got a bit better now but for instance like that when you really know that you're the underdog but you really feel like a piece of work has credence yeah how do you be like actually please I think this deserves your point of view like what would you suggest I think um I think it's about if you can if you can email someone and and really take time with an email it's not sort of dear so and so that it's not clearly a generic thing that you've sent out to loads of people it would be you know dear in my case sort of disifier hi mentioning i've had this before where people will mention oh i love that piece that you wrote this or i love that that like just shows you've taken a bit of time

and also if you're receiving if you're because i was um i went on to i was an editor at the mail and then at tatler and so then if you're an editor and you're getting loads of pitches a day from people, if someone's taking the time to personalise something, then it's very hard to, it sort of lodges in your brain a bit more. It's really hard to just delete that email on site. You can't, because that's incredibly rude. And someone's obviously taking the time to get in touch with you. So even if they don't immediately, an editor doesn't immediately go, great, we'd love to run it,

we'll print it tomorrow, at least you've made a sort of human connection, as opposed to just sending out something which clearly has gone to 20 different people. What about really interesting, I want to ask you about working at the Daily Mail, as a woman. People always say it,

and I always feel a bit sort of, I mean, you know, because everyone hates the Daily Mail, and I always sort of say it quietly no but everyone everyone hates any member everyone also fervently reads i know the thing is as a as a journalist whatever your politics and i was there with helen lewis who's now the deputy editor of new statesman i was on the same desk as her and she's amazing obviously she's gone off in a completely different direction is so super successful and so i don't think it's any reflection on you, I just, I was more interested in like, if it was as

um not even misogynistic, but just as a woman working there There's always sort of, the thing that I know is true is that certain pages in the female section, women aren't supposed to be photographed in trousers or jeans

if you look at the pages of female which comes out on a Thursday in the paper all the women will be in dresses or skirts that's still

I mean the editor Paul Dacre is stepping down though this year so I'm really interested and Geordie Gregg who's the editor of the Mail on Sunday

ex-editor of Tatler is moving to be editor of the Mail so it's really interesting to see if that will change I mean yes it was a very sort of macho

testosterone-y environment but then most newsrooms are to change. I mean, yes, it was a very sort of macho, testosterone-y environment, but then most newsrooms are to be fair. Yeah, I mean, I guess most industries in general are. Yeah, exactly. And newsrooms are just very, very shouty and can be very aggressive and stressful. And so, yes, they're not very inviting workplaces, or haven't traditionally been for women.

But working at the Mail for two years was the most amazing training i always say it's sort of you get thrown in and it's sink or swim basically and a load of people go through a lot of journalists go through it and many journalists who are you know left wing would have to admit the mail is you know very professionally run incredibly successful yeah paper whatever you think it's very good business yeah yeah i'm in a very difficult industry it's still you know making money so did you feel like you've so now that you've finally gone freelance do you feel like you finally worked up to the point where you can actually say and do and be who you want to be yeah i wanted to leave so i went from the mail to tatler for five i was at tatler for five years and i wanted to go freelance for a

while but i was just like shit how do i make that happen because oh my god if I don't have a salary and how am I how am I going to support myself and and and it took it basically took getting the book deal for me to think okay that's all right I can leave and even if I only get commissioned one piece a month I can I can just about manage and then you yeah and then you leave and and actually I mean I really love Tatler and I love the sort of madness of writing about dukes and Labradors yeah all of that and going around leaky castles and you know the mad wonderful things I got to do for five years at Tatler were kind of extraordinary and obviously have sort of informed the book but I did want to get away a little bit from endless Labrador jokes and you know that I think yeah I I still love writing about posh people and I'm fascinated

and I think this country remains not quite fascinated with sort of class um uh but I'd like to do some other stuff as well yeah do you feel like so do you feel like a little bit of that was like almost underwriting the whole thing was just a self-belief that actually you could just go and do it on your own uh yes I mean I I needed I needed the sort of the the book deal I think to give me that confidence yeah I needed something a sort of push um and a little bit I mean I got I got a column with Sunday Telegraph um just before I got the book deal so that was another thing which meant I could jump and go and then you yeah so it's just little it bit by bit but I mean god yeah jumping from a job with a salary to in London to no salary you know you'd have to be pretty mad was there always a

novel at the end of your story not the end in the middle of your story um was I always going to write one we get did you was it journalism and then would you thought like someone I want to be an author or was it that just yeah I did always want to do a book and actually I lived in Abu Dhabi for two years after the evening standard because I've been in London for ages I went away and lived out there have you been out to Dubai I've been to Dubai yeah um so quite a weird part of the world yeah for two years and people are really I get quite defensive sometimes about the gulf because people can be really snotty about it about Dubai and the sort of silliness but it just doesn't pretend to be anything else right it sort of just pretends to be mad hotels and water parks and and all of that so I had sort of two years out

there working for a newspaper which was an amazing adventure um but and I did actually start a book and nearly get a deal when I was out there which was a sort of single life in the desert single girl's life in the desert kind of thing because oh my god expat society i'm weirdly fascinated by i don't know if you've read white mischief no i don't have any uh listeners of red white mischief it's this amazing book about kenya and um the sort of expat society in the sort of 20s 30s into the 40s that's amazing and they were all sort of drinking champagne taking morphine and and just misbehaving and affairs and shagging all the time even my parents when they lived in saudi malm was like they lived in a complex oh yeah if they lived taking morphine and and just misbehaving and affairs and shagging all the time even my parents when they lived in saudi mom was like they lived in a complex oh yeah they lived out there and she

was like the women would come over and they're buyers and they'd take it off and underneath it all have like the most expensive chanel gucci yeah amazing perfume and she would be goth fat because they'd all come over but because my parents were in a british because my dad was a doctor so he'd been like the british complex bear yeah so they would could take their because they weren't technically, I don't really know how it worked, but she was like, oh my God,

we go to bed early, they'd be drinking moonshine. Yeah, it's sort of extraordinary. But I do think there's something that happens with expat, whether it is Hong Kong or Singapore or Dubai, I think it's,

people go out there to work for a bit. It's not really real life, right? You think, well, real life is when I come home. I think you get sucked in as well. You can't escape it. it's all,

everyone sort of spends the weekend, it's like being on holiday basically the whole time everyone's on boats and on the beach on the weekends probably everyone's earning a bit more money as well yeah so it creates a sort of mad crucible and i did start writing a book about being a sort of single girl and the affairs and the drinking and everything that went on around me and was really gutted when that deal fell through but i'm actually quite glad now so what would that what happened to that story then well it was non-fiction so i didn't write the whole thing I wrote sort of the first chapter

and the middle chapter and a synopsis and did get quite close to something and then just fell through and so I just sort of gave up it really gutted me for a while actually and I thought well that's it could you not revisit that though and then like fictionise it later on? well I think with writing nothing is ever wasted

so like Nora Ephron said everything is copyright so i think you know i can use bits of that in in other stuff um but i'm yeah quite glad now i think that that didn't ever see the light of day because i think i would have just been writing stuff to to get a book deal right and no matter what it said about me i would have just been chucking out and be like yeah i've got a book even though it reveals lots of like innermost stuff which I might not have been that comfortable with later date yeah yeah it sounds you sound like you've had the most incredible career that you've done so many things um yeah I mean I've yeah I feel very like very lucky and I feel like it was I think it was quite an odd decision in a way to go out to the gulf when I was like 23 but I'm so glad I did um and

I always actually say to people I think living abroad is an amazing thing to do if you can go and live somewhere else for a bit you know we've got our whole lives to be home wherever home is or London or wherever but I think going and working abroad

is amazing and I always think my mates who are expats I think there's a you can quite often tell if someone's lived abroad there's just a more open mentality that you can sit down

next to someone who's been abroad and instantly be like hey like what's your story who are you and chat whereas i think if you stay in the same place and you stay in the same friendship groups your whole life you sort of can become quite close-minded yeah i think so and i think it's just really important to displace yourself i think you can get so kind of it's funny because actually i think you're right it gets accelerated i know friends who move out to dubai and it's like you get used to the money and the culture you get sucked in and it's like quite hedonistic and exaggerated but that still happens on a diluted level in london yeah it's just like you just get so used to this london

way you know and i bet if you go home to the country for a weekend you don't feel like you've been there for three weeks yeah and then you come back to london well i regress when i go home to the country and i open my mom's fridge and i'm like yeah i'm gonna eat 10 pieces of toast yeah and all the cheese i don't even eat cheese and i'm like this is great yeah but but but with me I just feel very lucky like I just it's been sort of a decisions that I've made at the time that have taken me on a certain path it wasn't like yes I did want to write a book at some point but it wasn't nothing was very premeditated right so it wasn't like back when I was at the evening standard I was plotting my moves like on a chessboard like all right yeah after this I'm going to go abroad for a bit and then I'm going

to come back and then I'm going to work for Tatler in fact I really didn't want to work for Tatler I tried really hard not to work I got offered a job twice before and because I've got like the world's silliest poshest maddest name I didn't want to be supply money coots who went to work for Tatler that's the world's most embarrassing cliche and then I sort of went and had a lovely time and realized how great it was but do you think as well because if you if you weren't I'm assuming that when you went away, you weren't in a relationship. I was just coming out of the relationship with a tutor.

So that was part of it. So do you think that had you been in a very stable relationship, say from the age of 23 or 24, do you think you would have done, had all the experiences that you had? No, probably not. I would have, I probably would have been less, because I'm also deeply, a bit like Marianne and Sensibility, super romantic. So I think I would have stayed for that oh i'm gonna stay but i don't you're it's kind of too young i think i'm so glad i went away um i mean i don't want to sound patronizing say anyone's too young for a certain thing because it totally depends on you obviously

and i'm also this romantic and this just me out because I really hope that I won't do this but I know that say if I wanted to go somewhere and my boyfriend was like I want to stay I literally tell myself if you want to do it you have to do it you have to do it do you think that you now would take an opportunity well it's difficult again I think

I might be something that changes in your 30s I would now you know say something came up and I was going to go away again. I don't know if I would. But then you've done it as well. Yeah, and I have done it. Although, I mean, I really, really, really love travelling. I'm obsessed with travelling.

And part of the reason for going freelance was that I wanted to do more travelling. So I do want to do much more of that. And, you know, I'm going really excited. Telegraph is sending me to Japan next month. Whereabouts are you going? Tokyo and Kyoto and Osaka. Because I write this column for the telegraph about it's called modern manners so it's sort of about etiquette in a sort of like modern way like don't use your phone on the loo do this yeah yeah i've wrote a column once about how we should really like

obviously we all do it even when no one's here you know when you're doing work and you know you're not meant to go on your phone I do it to like hide from myself that I've gone on my phone so I'll be doing work but I work from home there's no one to tell me I've got to go on my phone

so you just take your phone to the loo yeah so when I go for a wee I go on my phone then because I'm like well well I know no no you totally all do it but I sort of

that's really interesting because you need to be conscious about your well it's just like some hygiene in a way oh that's so true yeah it's a little bit like yeah a little bit like that um and also are you like my brother's one of those people who has a

little plaster over his camera on his laptop are you one of those people no i'm not and i would have facetime open mine's always green they're probably watching me the whole time i always think i sometimes think if i've got my phone on the loo i'm like oh my god is someone watching i'm really lackadaisical about that kind of stuff because I would I literally mine will always have the green I've had friends say that to me before because I'll just I'm one of these

annoying people that doesn't close tabs and shit's open my friends are like they're literally watching I'm like bloody I'm sat in my room I'd be acting out

scenes and stuff they'll be like oh god yeah that would be horrendous anyway so I write this column about etiquette and modern manners and so the Telegraph

say could I go to Japan and go somewhere where they also get they have quite serious rules about etiquette and manners. And I said, yes, please. I've always wanted to go, but everyone's always said it's incredibly expensive. It's like a once in a lifetime holiday in Japan. So yeah, point being, I really want to do more travel.

But it's difficult when you're in a sort of serious long-term relationship going away. And my boyfriend travels quite a lot as well. So you do slightly have to think about it and coordinate a bit more as opposed to being like oh sorry I'm just going to go here and then go there and um so yeah I definitely think about it a bit more consciously now but I think that's more because I'm in my 30s so that's just the stage that I've got to basically and made it is because I feel like I've been lucky and I have traveled quite a lot before interesting amazing so going forward some more books yes um my deadline for book two is really soon it's the end of november um so i am what i'm this is part of the problem actually with the japan trip i booked a cottage in yorkshire for seven weeks i know to go um in

october and for most of november to basically remove myself from london um go somewhere where there's incredibly dodgy wi-fi I'm imagining I know it's in the Cotswolds but you know in the holiday no no in the holiday I'm imagining that cottage yeah so am I but in my head I've only seen a picture on like google maps so I'm I have no idea what it's like I just put a thing on Facebook and I've sort of you know you've got your friends and people on Facebook that you haven't spoken to for 100 years or ever spoken to yeah but this guy just popped up and he said, oh, me and my brother have this place in Yorkshire, so it'd be nice to have someone in it.

So it's incredibly cheap rent, which was really nice of him. So I'm slightly imagining it like, yeah, like the holiday as well, but it might not be. So do you think once you've done it, because I guess the first thing about like, I'm going to write a book, you've written a book, that's amazing. Does that not feel amazing? Well, again, a bit like imposter syndrome. It's sort of like, like yeah i guess i have and even when i hold it it's like an actual novel yeah no it's it is it's a really wonderful feeling and i sort of still can't believe it i basically the way i wrote this book because i did it while i was still at tatler i

used to go to pret on hanover square and sit every morning and do an hour sort of before work writing you know sex scenes in pret while everyone got their coffees around me um and then if i was feeling energetic i'd go and do an hour of a lunch as well but there were great like stretches a month when i couldn't be bothered and i was really idle and then my poor very long suffering agent would send me an email going hello any further um so yeah so that was how i um did that one and then it just suddenly was book shaped and it was long enough for a book and I sent it off but it does feel again mentioning imposter syndrome like a sort of happy accident in a way like I'm just very bad at sort of owning it yeah it's funny as well because you said about four

times that you're so lucky but you've literally also just told me all the different types of jobs you did and the months you spent not being paid and like how you sound like false modesty as well I'm worried about that no it didn't sound false at all no it didn't it literally i'm so lucky to have gone and got a degree and worked alongside my degree and done internships and just happened to get this job it's so weird that they could take me and i was listening to it and i'm thinking it's not it's not no not annoying it's not luck but i think it's a massive thing to learn when you grow up is that we were talking about it just before that you don't you can just realize that you've worked hard for something i don't know why we're just taught that you have to be it's just so fortunate

this has happened checking your privilege is one thing that's great yeah but when you've literally like you've written a whole book yeah it didn't just fall in the sky exactly yeah disappear on my laptop there are loads of egg and tomato baguettes from prep i did that happen yeah i didn't ever get over i mean i hope we will it's just the great thing about it and i'm happy this is happening more especially with female authors is the rawness and the realness and the real funnily enough unapologeticness about it which is funny in regards to what we've been speaking about about being very kind of nervous to yeah be self-accepting oh that bit I know I mentioned this before that bit the loo bit when Polly wakes up I haven't

okay well this is just something that a friend of mine a girlfriend of mine said to me last week she's like oh my god that bit is my favorite bit um which is when so polly wakes up i don't want to say she wakes up next to you but she wakes up one morning having slept with someone for the first time she really needs the loo but she's just like oh god i can't because my bathroom's there and if i oh what if i get up and i make a noise or like a smell and oh my God, what would happen? And so she lies there having this like ridiculous internal monologue for about 20 minutes. And then she sort of inches out just as he wakes up and sort of reaches for it.

She's like, oh, for Christ's sake. Well now I can't. So it's that thing that, you know, girlfriends and I have spent many a time debating about like, you know,

when you first go away with someone or you go on holiday with someone. I can, I'm going to be internally damaged. No, no, no, no. Okay. So have you had a poopery yeah um is it the esop drops oh no they're like very posh esop drops actually my boyfriend has hilariously so i got sent this is weird this is

even funnier this is i got i thought i was going to go and date this guy and then he cancelled on me and i got sent this delivery thing and i for some reason thought it was flowers it was in a quite nice box so i started instagram story to show off that I've been sent flowers by this boy then opened it and it was like I was like what's that little sprays I was like what's it say and then I flipped the thing I was like poo puri and it was like spray in the loo before you go poo and I was like what before interesting and then I was doing all of this on my Instagram story it's so amazing and I realized it was like a PR package you saved it it's one of your

saved stories it 100% should be it's so funny but then it's actually amazing so you spray it in the toilet bowl and you just get that smell no matter what happens

really and is it a nice you know how summer you can get lavender you can get lemongrass and it just goes in the loo and it doesn't it makes sense

I'm going to google it immediately yeah I know it's amazing it's really good oh god that hideousness so you can yeah

I mean even though I've been going out my way for about every year now it's still one of those good oh god that hideousness so we can you can yeah yeah i mean even though i've been going out my way for about every year now i mean it's still one of those topics you're just a bit like i actually just think you don't need to i think even if it happens you should just not acknowledge it just don't just don't talk about it just ignore it oh i think sometimes go the other way and then like we just really discuss it i think it's too far i think that's weird yeah my brother has strong feelings but he thinks he thinks you never ever ever talk about i just think it's unnecessary and i also think because it can be you know you sometimes want to say it because you think it makes it less embarrassing yeah i actually sometimes think that just don't call it out yeah yeah because i've done that before when i'm like

have you farted and i feel a bit bad because i'm like i could have just not like it's clear they have yeah you just we don't have to talk about everything yeah just ignore it it's like they probably didn't mean to do that did did they? As they just leave it. Oh, hideous. Well, I'm glad we got down to the bottom of this, quite literally. Yeah. Well, it's been fab speaking to you.

You too. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope that this made sense. I don't even know if I asked you any of the right questions. We got so sidetracked. No, I loved it though. Just, you know, general gossip.

Yeah, it's fab. Thank you so much. And if people want to find you online. Yeah, online, I'm Sophia M. Cootes on Instagram and Twitter or I've got my website SophiaMoneyCootes.com

book will be available a book's out the 9th it's yeah the plus one out on the 9th on Kindle on audio

which I recorded recording the sex scenes was really cringe and I'll be back out yeah next week tags bye and I'll back out. Yeah. Next week. Bye. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning.

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