Adulting - #13 Choosing Love with Doris & Valerie

Episode Date: August 12, 2018

This week I speak to Doris & Valerie, both lesbian refugees from Cameroon where homosexuality is still illegal and they wish to be able to live freely as themselves much like we do. I hope you enjoy x Say it Loud Club website  http://www.sayitloudclub.co.uk/ Help Refugees website http://www.helprefugees.org/. Sign up to their mailing list for information about the issues affecting refugees across Europe and the Middle East and for lots of accessible ways that anyone can help. If there's an issue and you'd like to let your MP know that his / her constituents care about this, in this case the fact that 3/4 of claims for asylum on the grounds of sexuality were rejected by the Home Office between 2015 and 2017 you can find your MP's details on this website https://www.writetothem.com/. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I have Doris and Valerie and they are both women who have come over to the UK to seek asylum because they are part of the LGBTQ community and where their home is they felt like they couldn't be there because of the way that their society deemed their sexuality and they've come over the sheet to the UK in order to find a safe place but unfortunately it seems that we still don't really humanize people as much we might like to and I just order to find a safe place but unfortunately it seems that we still don't really humanize people as much we might like to and I just wanted to talk to them about their stories how they're getting on and just really what it means to grow up when you're not only feeling different because of your sexuality but then you're also displaced from your family in

your home so I think first of all I'm just going to have a chat with Doris hello I'm Doris from Cameroon I'm just here with Anoni and Philly and my friend Valerie so we get to talk about our sexuality and how we've come to realize and how we've come to you know like interact and you know have that sense of belonging with other LGBT people in the United Kingdom because we didn't have that privilege back home but now you know it's like freedom to us because we belong in a community where LGBT is more acceptable so I feel more comfortable in my sexuality right now that's so good so what happened can we talk about when you're at home when you when you like came out or when you understood your sexuality what kind of happened literally um it's it was kind of

difficult because he also had it i was in secondary school yeah you know i didn't know exactly what was happening to me at that age because you know back home we grew up i grew up from a religious background my parents were christian so it was kind of really difficult for me having to live with your your parents who are both christians so when i realized in secondary school i was like you know i had that sense of confusion going on within me because i didn't quite understand like i didn't have a good understanding of my sexuality at that stage because i had this strong crush on my best friend so i didn't know what to talk to i couldn't talk to my parents because i was so scared they were going to reject me as well and i couldn't talk to my parents because I was so scared they were going to reject me as well. And I couldn't talk to my teachers at school.

Because in school, the way we were taught in school is like, we had this kind of strict, like, since I'm from a strict community, we only knew about sexuality when we were taught in biology. So they didn't teach anything, like, we didn't go beyond that. Like male and female relationship, we didn't go beyond. So I didn't have any knowledge about female-to-female relationship or male-to-male relationship. So I only knew about male-to-female and female-to-male. So I was like, what's happening to me?

And I went on for nights. I cried for nights. It was really like, you know, as a child, at that age, it was traumatizing to be quite old. It was quite difficult for me. And when I went to high school, I went to a boarding school and it was a Christian school as well.

So I didn't really have that, you know, there wasn't that knowledge at all because in school too, it got worse because my pastors in school, they call them vicars. What they taught us in school was that um homosexuality is a sin that's the knowledge now at that age i got about like because they had this verse in the bible that always related to like sodom and gomorrah so i was like what do you mean by homosexuality is a sin so i didn't even know the meaning of like they said um those people in sodom whatever they give some kind of example said that already it planted something in my brain i was like but what is happening so when i went to university there was that freedom at least there

was a bit because i had to go to the internet because back when we didn't have you know years ago there wasn't no technology there was nothing we didn't have this um smartphone that we have today we have all this whatsapp so we had nothing so when i went to uni then so i did my research at least uni it was different at least i was there on my own my parents rented me apartment to live so I said okay let me find more let me know more about my sexuality because like there's something going on I don't know yeah so I went to the internet myself one evening I googled on the internet so I had to research a lot about it so I was when I realized that honestly what's what they

think of lesbian and being a gay person is actually a criminal offense back home that's what i got to know about it because it initially i thought it was a sin but then it was a criminal offense as well so i became so scared like okay now i'm in the university if i had to live openly now i would get arrested so it was kind of difficult there are things i really I really liked to do. Like physically, I like to color my hair. I like to, I love tattoo,

to be honest. I'm some kind of person that do love tattoo on my body. But I couldn't do all of that because I was like so scared. I was scared because those back home, male suspicion,

the authorities suspect that you have tattoo on your body, you have this color, short hair, they know that you're a lesbian. So they look more, they base their own,

their own ideology on your physical appearance which was something that was really it was so frightening to me i couldn't that's why my hair today because i grow with that fear already because i didn't want to keep short hair i didn't want to have tattoo my body it was like me exposing myself to this can't be yourself so you can't be yourself so it was kind of really difficult for me to live openly back home. So I had to go in my closet, which was something that I didn't want to because it's like you're trying to hide your own identity. I was living a life of somebody else. It wasn't me. I was crying like I spent nights.

My mom even took note of me, like what was happening to me. But I didn't want to talk to her because I knew if I told her, I knew how she was going to react to it anyways I didn't just want to say it so she became worried she thought maybe there was somebody there was one guy to hire she told me there was one guy but I didn't want to even say it about my sexuality because she said it was one day she said you know what it feels like because my sister was abroad already she said you need to travel abroad to meet your sister so you need this change of environment so that was like a great opportunity for me to leave Cameroon.

When she said you have to travel, because she actually sponsored my studies abroad. So I was like, oh. And I asked her, I asked her, where exactly do you want to send me? Because I didn't want her to send me to any other country. I was like, I was so keen on that. When she said United Kingdom, I was like, great. Because I knew UK was a country that was LGBT. Like, they were more tolerant of LGBT people

so I was like oh thank you when she said that was like and my girlfriend too was in the United Kingdom then so that was like a huge relief for me at that point I was so happy when she said it and when the application went through I was so pleased when I came I continued my relationship with my girlfriend when I came abroad oh yeah that's amazing so that was even though when I came here abroad too it wasn't easy at all because it's not, as we Cameroonians, we always live in a community.

Right. We grew in a community and when we came, when I came here, I also had to live in the Cameroon community. So it wasn't easy for me to just come over

and just start living. Even though UK was a country that was more, you know, LGBT accepting, I couldn't just come and start living openly, putting tattoo on my body

because I was living with my aunt as well. My aunt was kind of precious. She's difficult too. So I was like, okay, if she finds out I'm a lesbian, maybe she might throw me out. So I said no. So it's like all those kind of things. I didn't want those Cameroonians to know

that I'm also a lesbian. So I had to keep everything in hiding until I finally, you know, I came in contact with Say It Loud Club they actually helped me that was fun because it's something that yeah you need that courage to actually talk about your sexuality yeah Say It Loud is is a it's a charity that's funded by help refugees absolutely and it's for LGBTQ plus communities specifically that have been displaced in order to help you kind of find your home in a new place kind of thing yeah yeah so yeah so we say it loud when I started

it was it wasn't easy as well I went there I saw other women you know they were telling me their story you know when you listen to other women especially from Africa they were talking about their own stories and i really got inspired and i listened to the story of alicia's as well each time he says his story i just get inspired every day so from there i was so inspired by listening to just stories i gained that confidence to actually go out you know that was where i grew i gained my confidence to actually go and start talking about my sexuality and today i'm so proud of myself because what i've learned so far because i've run many projects with Say It Loud Club

I started as a service user and I grew up I became a volunteer I did volunteer with Say It Loud Club and I became a team leader and today I'm an ambassador of Say It Loud Club because me sharing my own story too I've also helped to inspire many women as well it's something that now I feel so comfortable in myself i'm not scared to go out there and talk about my sexuality anymore which was something that i wish i could have done long time ago you know i want to actually realize what i'm doing right now at times i repeat what what i haven't done this long time ago because the other day i also did a podcast actually oh really yeah i did a podcast at regent's park oh amazing oh a bit more fascinating absolutely so i did one and the crowd

i asked will today tell me i need to know the crowd because it was like 1200 people i went like wow i said okay this is yeah of course i was like yeah so i was like okay great it's downgrade so it's something that when i keep it's something i really feel like you know where this is me i've actually come to accept myself you know be i really feel like, you know what, this is me. I've actually come to accept myself. I was so happy. I'm now part of a community that has been there for me. They've fought for me.

They've supported me throughout my coming out stage, to be honest. So I feel like I owe them a lot. I feel like I belong to a community that's accepted me for who I am. They love me for who I am, and I love them so much. So it's something that I can't just do without. And seriously, the project that we ran with Help Refugee was, I wanted to come to do my t-shirt. I thought they were going to, I was like, oh my gosh.

Yeah, seriously. They came into our charity. They were like a blessing. You know, when you say in your own corner, not everybody can recognize your charity, but Help Refugee, they were like a blessing. You know, when you say in your own corner, not everybody can recognize your charity, but Help Refugee, they actually recognize our charity. It was something that was mind-blowing, to be honest with you. When I saw they walked the date, they found the risk for our charity.

I went home, I cried. I told my coordinator, you know what? I don't know. I can't stop thanking Help Refugee. Each day I go to their Twitter page, I just look. I said, I don't know what I can do thanking help refugee each day i go to their twitter page i just look i said i don't know what i can do but i know i need to do something because they've done so much to us that where we are today i want to say thank you so much to philly thank you for tom thank you to tom and thank you to help refugee you make us so proud you give us that sense of belonging in the community because through that choose love

t-shirt many people you know when i went to the podcast so many people wearing the t-shirt i was so proud but they didn't understand it's like that is us i could see myself in the t-shirt i was like oh god i was there absolutely i was like it's something like it's a feeling that it cannot be bought with money no absolutely it's something that when i say i just say you people are you're amazing and i will keep saying it thank you so much they are the kind of people that when you say they've helped us and i will say they've helped us i want to go through and how they've helped other refugees as well it's not like being a refugee most people always think of being a refugee you are there like you are being left out in the community. But they came and it's about showing that sense like refugees are not just refugees.

They are human beings. Yes. They also have some qualities. So they accepted us as refugees and they fought our cause. So it's like, thank you. It's amazing. Thank you, Philly. thank you so much so I'm so proud what is it I'm so proud yeah I'm so proud to be a refugee to be honest that's a lovely thing to say I'm so proud to be one so thank you Philly we're all gonna be crying in a minute because of Philly actually you know because of Philly I wouldn't have been here today

so it's it's been a journey it's from one stage to the other so it's like I'm here today because of her sorry I haven't mentioned Philly but Philly who works to help refugees is sat with us now getting a little bit teary I know yeah I'm here today because of her so I just want to say thank you Philly thank you for this great opportunity it's something that i would i don't know it will stay forever that's the thing yeah don't make me cry do you have anything else and like your story that you want to share with us or my struggle yeah your story yeah my story yeah as i said okay i would say i'm from i said i'm from religious family my dad passed away that was years ago yeah 27 2007 so my mom struck before she sent me abroad that was in 2010 but she passed away in 2016 okay so she never found out no she no she no she found out in 2015

but then i was already in the united kingdom then I was already in the United Kingdom, actually. I was already in the UK. And when she found out, like, a year after, she passed away. So it's like, I was so traumatized because I felt like maybe it was, maybe she couldn't pay it. No, no. But that was what I was so worried about because I knew she was alone, so I didn't want to talk about it to her. So I was like, just barely a year after now she's gone what am i gonna do i'm like hope it's not because of that so that thought just kept you know each time i said i feel like maybe maybe but it was something beyond my control because it wasn't me

who actually told her so i don't know the way it all happened because i'm that kind of person i do love you know my phones when i go with my friends, I take pictures. I've been in relationships anyway. So it's like casual relationships. I've been out there. So I had so many pictures on my mobile phone with my friends, my girlfriends, that kind of thing. So I knew your phone is your personal phone. So we had this party at home.

My sister in the UK, the one that's mentioned, she had a party. So she organized friends. She called for very close family friends to come over. She had a party. So she organized friends. She called for very close family friends to come over. It was a New Year's party, actually. So that morning, I phoned my mom that early morning to wish her a happy New Year. So I told her that we're having a party

this afternoon, so I'll be going to my sister's place to celebrate. She said, if I told her I'm going to ring her later in the evening, she said, okay. Because she calls me like every day. She said, okay, when the party's over, I should ring her. I said, okay, that's fine. So when she said okay when the party's over i should ring her i said okay that's fine so when i went there the party was great i was cooking and everything because it was like an open plan flat so they were partying i was busy in the kitchens one of the one little girl there was a little she was three years old she was crying so i just said oh and the parents were really having fun you know what you just want to

like have fun you just forget about your kid for a moment so the child was crying i said okay let me just give her my phone to listen to is it peppa pig yeah yeah they love they love that so i just like okay so that at least she can stop crying so i just gave it to her i never knew that would cost oh they went on your phone she was there it's like she thought the phone was the mom's phone so i gave it to her she was listening to it so she handed my phone to the mum. Oh, no. That kind of thing. So she was... Some people are so curious.

That's rude. That's my Cameroonian community. That's how they are. They want to know things. So she was just going through. I had pictures from my girlfriend. So your sister didn't know before? My sister didn't even know

because I didn't want to tell her either. She saw those pictures. It's like... She went and told my sister. It was my sister that actually came and called me when I went in. She was just crying. I didn't know what to say. You know, because I wanted to be the one to tell her. So it was heartbreaking for me to see her cry.

She was crying not because she was ashamed for me being a lesbian woman. It was like now she's not the only person who knows about it. Other people know about it. That's scary. So her, yeah, her friends know about it. How is she going to handle this? If it was just her, at least she was just shedding tears. Do you think she would have been okay with your sexuality, your sister? She would have got over it? It's something, something you know my family

i'm from a christian i don't think but with my sister i think she would have because now even though we are not we are still not in good terms but i know she'll come over it because she's in the united kingdom so she's kind of yeah she's that kind of i know they all have that stage i know that stage where she'll come to a stage where she'll finally accept it yeah i know i just have to bear with her like she's yeah but she'll come i know she'll finally accept it yeah i know i just have to bear with her like she's yeah but she'll come i know she'll come a very good time yeah but i was just looking for the right time i was waiting for the right time because to talk about that kind of thing and i was worried because i knew one day she was going to ask because of my age you know when you find out

you're not married at a certain age they get worried i'm 34. and in africa in cameroon when you're 34 they'll go, why are you still single? Why are you not married? You don't have kids. You know, you get it. You know, those are the questions that I knew one day I had to tell my mom or my sister. Because when you get to a certain age, they'll definitely ask you, why are you not married? Why are you still single?

Why don't you have kids? So I was like, you get to that point where I will have to open up to them. But that was the way it came out. It's just unfair that it wasn't up to you. so it was beyond my control so i cried i cried bird yeah that was it right i know my mom got to know about it but i don't know who told her that's the thing i don't know what i can't see my sister because i wasn't there i wasn't there when she called her bitch you know because when i ran her in the unit as i promised i was going to ring her she didn't pick up my phone i ran my phone mom. She didn't pick up. I thought maybe she was busy.

And that was, to be honest, that was the last time I spoke to my mom until she called. She never called me again. And I cried for months. I don't want, you know, there's some memories I don't want to think about. I cried, to be honest, like, I cried for months until, thank God I was with my aunt. She was there. I didn't want her to know what was happening to me as well. I cried for months until, thank God I was with my aunt, she was there. I didn't want her to know what was happening to me as well. I cried for months. This was what I was trying to avoid. I wanted a family that if you say something, you didn't know about something, they can't accept you. But I know it was hard for her because she's in Africa.

When you get to know about certain things, I didn't know if she was even safe back home. That's why I was trying because I was scared. Camorra is a country that maybe somebody could have persecuted her because of my own crime my own thing they to them is a crime or it's a sin so i was so worried so when that happened i was like i don't know to be honest she didn't answer my phone call i even tried to contact my sister my sisters were not in good terms. I left her messages. So she didn't want to talk to me. But I just stood strong. At times, I just cried for months, to be honest.

It was really hard. I just had it one evening. I need to go out there to socialize with others. I need to make other friends as well so i joined this meetup groups online you know lesbian meetup groups yeah i joined so because i was really down yeah i was down so i went there there are some few groups i went to attend so i say no word after my mom passed away that was when i said to myself i've lost everything in my in my mom is gone i don't have anything left my mom and dad are gone so there's nothing left for me anyway so

just go there and just you know i was before i was i was in my closet because of my mom yeah because i was scared she's back home i didn't know what's going to happen to her now she's no more it's her i don't have any family just my sister who's here so i don't have anything to lose anyway what even if the whole world gets to know about it now there is nothing to be worried about so that's just it so i went now i went online that was i made my last girlfriend and uh yes i went on a dating site he was quite yeah i was just quite just because i just wanted to go you know at times i was tired to be alone i was just quite stupid. I just wanted to go. You know, at times, I was tired to be alone. I was just tired to stay at home. I just said, you know what? Thank God she was very accepting as well.

She was very supportive. She pulled me out when I was really down. She supported me in every way, emotionally. I wouldn't stop thanking her, to be honest. Yeah. I met her online through a dating site. And we were together. She talked a lot to me because her mum and dad were separated.

We had a good chat together. I told her about my journey and everything. She was very understanding as well. She told me she would be there for me. She was there for me when I was down. She was really there for me and she was there for me when i was down that was really she was really there for me because i'm yet yeah she was there for me very supportive loving and caring she had yeah she was even though she had two sons but she made her time for me as well she was one person that would never stop talking about yeah so that was yeah before after going through all of that I finally come I went to

it was this that when we went out together me and my girlfriend so I made this friend of mine in a nightclub it's a friend uh my name is um what's the girl's name Thelma Thelma I almost forgot her name is Thelma we met in the night I almost forgot. Her name is Thelma. We met in the night. I didn't know she was from Uganda, actually. When I saw her, because she's a black woman as well, I said, what are you doing here? Oh! She said, what am I doing? I said, I'm here with my partner. She said she also came with her partner. I said, okay. So we were chatting. We just exchanged numbers from there. There was a day we were just chatting on the phone. There was one day she invited me to church.

She said, oh, there's this programme in church I said which church she said MCC I said I don't know MCC she said why not she said it's a gay friend it's an LGBT

friendly church you heard of it only literally Valerie was just telling me I was like really I said I've never heard of that

she said oh you need to come they had one programme in church that she was inviting me to come with my partner she said it would

be lovely I said okay I'll try I'll talk to her if she was inviting me to come with my partner. She said it would be lovely. I said, okay, I'll try. I said, I'll talk to her. She's really willing to come. They will come together. I spoke to my partner and she was really willing to go. I said, okay, let's go.

Let's go to church. So we went there. It was great. When I went there, you know, when you're in a space where you see other people like you, you have that sense of belonging. There was something that I felt. Because I've been to other churches. I'm a Pentecostal Christian. You've been to a church where a pastor will preach about they'll preach against your sexuality you feel like excluded absolutely so at times i just feel like i don't

want to go to church when i went to that church the atmosphere was different everything when i stepped out i went like this is where i belong. That was it. I said to myself, this is the church I've been looking for for years. So I've been going to that church ever since. That was in 2017. I started going to that church in October 2017. So till today, I'm even in the choir. I sing in the choir almost every Sunday. Yeah, seriously.

It's something that, you know, when you're somewhere that you feel like, yes, this is it. So I can't, like, that church, they helped me to, like, I've seen, I tend to understand the Bible in a different perspective. I know that God created all of us for a reason. Because the way the pastors were preaching against us, now I've come to understand the Bible in a deeper way. It's not that homosexuality is not written anywhere in the Bible. It's just what the pastor preach what they want to preach. So it's like, I know God created me for a reason. Sarah, I'm so happy to be good.

I don't know, that church was the best thing that happened to me. Well, you just have as much right as anyone else to feel like this is your world. Yeah, and they always say yeah there is no fear in love there is no how if you want to love a woman why should you fear like you shouldn't have that fear to be in love with a woman or a man shouldn't have that fear to be in love with another man no love is love god say we should love one another yeah so why should you say why should you tell me that i shouldn't love another woman because i don't know it's not written anywhere in the bible so so that alone has just you know it helped me a lot so it helped

to build my confidence as well like now okay there's nothing in love so i can naturally love a woman too good which is good i'm already in love with a woman so it's not like so at least the bible says that as well so i'm happy happy with that. Religion is not against it, which is good. The law is not against it, which is good, which was something that in Cameroon, the law is against it and the religion is against it. So yeah, it's a completely different thing. Yeah, so when I sat down from there,

I was so pleased until I sat again. Another thing that drew me to say in Loud Club was that towards the end of that year I was watching tv you know of this Harvey Winston you know yeah that's his program out in America yeah when I sat and I listened to I was watching tv one evening I saw women talking about how he assaulted them what they've been through and they kept it for years it's like we all have a journey. People don't come out for a reason.

Yeah. So that also inspired me. Because you thought that was powerful. It was a powerful thing. I saw Angela Julie. I couldn't believe that those celebrities have gone through. Honestly,

when they came out, I was like, oh, so people have gone through this for years and you just get quiet. So it's not like, so something must trigger something. It's that shame. So we need to you just get quiet. So it's not like, so something must trigger something. It's that shame.

So we need to get rid of shame. Absolutely. So it's like that also added something in me. I'm like, okay, you know what? You need to go out there. That thing that you've been suppressing for years, that thing, you need to go out there and start talking about it. You need to help other people.

You need to. That is it. So I sat one day. I went to UK LG ij i told them that you know what i need help they said okay you go to say it loud i said what to say loud club they say this they say go to king's cross you say it i said okay i went to say it loud club i met aloysius i said i need to talk to you that was where my journey started so i spoke to alicia's honestly i've been through counseling they can't i went through counseling because each i talk about my story they have

really helped me before i couldn't talk about my story like this i will cry until yeah through the counseling today i can actually absolutely so i've been through counseling and it was great so it's been a journey when you listen to other people then now me too i tend to inspire other people through my own stories well when i tell them people like you know what i'm so proud of you i see because you can't be proud of yourself if you can't go out there and talk about yourself if you yeah if i just sit there then i say no to me i believe i'm not doing enough if i can inspire other people by sharing my own story and i've done something yeah that's just what that's how i feel if people somebody will come to me like the other day somebody came

and said oh you know what i saw you on tv as a tv as i didn't see that they see many people tell me i saw you and i said wow i don't know i said wow i feel like a celebrity now they said no i've read your story as well online i said really i thought that's good you know when people get inspired by such thing you feel like you're actually contributing to people's lives. So that's what I really like. Like, go out there, say something. People come back to you and say, you know what, I read the story. So please, there's something I've been holding in mind for years.

So now I feel like sharing mine to you as well. I go like, really? That's how I started as well. You get to a point that when you listen to somebody's story, that then you gain that confidence where you feel like now you have the courage to talk about your own story.

And you're not alone. You're absolutely, I'm not, I belong to a community and we have a backing. Help Refugee. They're behind us. That's amazing.

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You're amazing. You're not alone. And you're not alone today. Absolutely. So I might do speak to Valerie. Can I get you guys to swap seats? Okay, but thank you so much, Dor that's amazing thank you so valerie you're also from cameroon yeah and you're also a lesbian yes and but with you like i feel like you also had a really difficult time i mean could you talk us a

little bit more about what happened at home and how yeah everything started when I was 17 in the college so in the college I went out with friends and everything so we went we we finished like really late we were really drunk we went home and me and my friend we were sleeping in the same bed I didn't know that she was lesbian yeah so she started touching me anyhow and I felt like what are you doing you know I feel really shame like no don't touch me anything and by four o'clock she still four o'clock in the morning she started again so I was like okay you know I was feeling good but I didn't want her to know that I was feeling good so I let her do everything you know so and the next day I was feeling really ashamed so I didn't talk to her for like a week

and after she came to me and we start talking about that and that's how we start our relationship yeah and so then after that you kind of thought actually maybe I quite liked that yeah like women yeah yeah exactly because I kind of have a to see a woman it's like oh this girl is really nice not because i like her body and everything but because i think that oh she's really attractive you know so that's how it started and after that we have a really high high relationship for like a month you know because we were going it was the end of the college the end of the college so when I was graduate she got graduate as well we went out different part university so I went outside when I was living before so when I went there I was in the university we have women I mean I mean, like, girls have their own block, like, home and everything.

Yeah. So I was sharing a home with another girl as well. And one day I heard, you know, she was talking on the phone with someone. I didn't really know. You know, the conversation was kind of suspicious, you know. Like, talking to a girl on the phone, phone like your boyfriend or like a girl I think it's a little bit different so I didn't know how I'm gonna talk to her but we start to be friends just like friends we're going out we start knowing

each other you know really yeah we start making like a friendship first of all until we know that okay something's something's going on, you know? It's like, okay, this girl, me and her, we can, we have something in common. So that's how we start the relationship as well. And she was in that city for like a long time ago. So she know really a little bit everything there. So that's how we start the relationship. And we start to see each other every time we even moved together to the same place so after that we have one guys who

was like he wanted to date one of us yeah so he was all the time behind us every time we were going like you know like he was falling off so one day I was in her house and the window everything was closed because you can't just be like that and start kissing someone because you know that yeah come someone to catch you but we don't know what happened so he came by the window and opened the door so that's how we got caught. And he called all the neighbors and everything. They came, they started, you know, screaming at us. This is not good. This is what are you doing?

They were starting, they even wanted to beat us. So then the police came and, you know, police is not something really that we should be part of it. But they took us to the police station and they kept her there for like two days and after they didn't have any evidence about that because he just said that so they released us and after something else happened you know like we have a friend together like one friend we're always talking to her like oh do you know what do you think about um homosexuality what do you think she was like really kind she was like no i don't really mind this kind of thing everybody can do whatever you want what do you think if you have a friend that

is like that she was really kind we were talking about her for like years you know she was really okay with that so but after that we tried to tell her like listen me and her we dating together but this was really a bad thing that happened that time because she went out she told her family and her family told all the people so we get caught and everything that was the another time that we went to jail when you're in prison what was that? What did they treat you like? It was really bad because we stayed there for like a week. And they even raped my friend. They were swearing on us. Yeah.

I mean, they were like, this is malediction. You can't do things like that. We're going to put you in the prison. You're going to stay here all your life. They're the people that should be protecting you as well. Exactly. They're not there to hurt you. So they were like were like we're gonna put you in the prison this is not fair lucky us my friend like cameroon is a correction country you know so she just gave

some cash she have a friend outside she called that friend so the friend gave some money to one of the guards. So he let us go away. And I was really lucky that month was the month that I have, I mean, I was doing my application to come to the UK already to study. So I was really lucky when we escaped the jail. This was a different country. So I went back to my city. That's when I fly but I didn't even tell my friend I was flying because I was so scared about my family's gonna know this and that and I was really really scared I was even crying when I get the confirmation that

I'm coming to the UK I was like oh my god this is really big things coming the right time you know so I was really happy so I fly to the UK my family didn't know that that I was lesbian and everything but they paid my school fee you know everything they were happy for me to come and study in the UK so when I came to the UK I didn't know anything about you know I'm not that special girl so I didn't know anything about LGBT things like this so you were still trying to hide it yeah I was still trying to hide it and I didn't know how to expose myself in the country like this because this is really different culture for me I'm coming in Africa it's different it's really really different everything's really different and because I really faced with police back home I couldn't go to a policeman to say okay listen I've been doing this

to my country what do you think I should do here yeah so I went to school everything was fine until one day when my name come on the newspaper in my country you know like okay this, she's a lesbian. The newspaper? Yeah, they were referring me to a gangster group. That place I was sold in, Boya. So that's when one of my family friends, he saw the newspaper with my name on it.

He went to give that to my mom. When my mom saw that, that's when she called me and she said, forgot about me. Even your school, I'm not going to pay anymore. Everything, I'm not going to pay. So I was really devastated. I was like, what am I going to do? And I stopped going to school because there was no one who would have to pay my fee.

And that's when I applied for, mean my visa expired yeah and I have one of my friend who came and said to me okay you were talking I know you I know a little bit your story back home because was a really good friend you know it's really good it's like open mind he doesn't care about nothing he said okay I don't know exactly how it's work here but you know i can do an application for you for uh because of your sexuality seek asylum no i wasn't sick australia was like human rights right yeah so he did that but unfortunately for me i didn't have the fee to pay so they rejected my application because the fee wasn't paid and I get what was what was it for sorry it was like human rights

base of my sexuality in the UK yeah in the UK yeah so my application was rejected because I didn't have the fee how much was the fee I think was something like 600 pounds or 400 pounds. So it's ridiculous, a lot of money. Yeah. So I got caught with red. So I got the one day I was at home in the home office. I don't know if it's the home office or whatever. So they came, they came to my house. They called me and I was that day when they took me I was in the home they came I was living in Surfer Bush they took me to Hammysmith Police Station and I stayed there for two days

was like in the jail again so because your visa has expired yeah so and because the application

I did I couldn't you know couldn't go further so I was in the jail for two days, sleeping like, you know, prison and everything. And I couldn't even eat for two days, even shower. So, after two days, home office again, they come and they ask me a lot, a lot of questions.

I was like, what am I doing? So so they took me to the deposition center i don't remember even itro something like that so i was there for two days and after i don't know what happened they told me like oh you're released okay but inside then my one of my friends told me you should apply for asylum you know because it's the same thing that you did on your application and it's free. At home, if you were caught being a lesbian at home, you're at risk of being killed, did you say? Yeah, exactly. So you literally can't go home because your life is on the line

because of your sexuality. Exactly. That's the thing. So when I was in the deportation, I applied for asylum. And after that, I was released. And that's everything. They started sending me, Markaya, your interview is this and this. I didn't know nothing about application asylum process.

I'm in London. I'm alone. I don't have family. I'm not working. How am I going to get friends? So I didn't know nothing about that so I just write my story on my own I write my story and everything so the day of mine the day of my interview I went there with everything

yeah I was they asked me for like more like more than 200 question you know yeah asking me about this I need to give this day i need to be like exactly give the date i need to talk about everything all the experience and everything so this is what i did and after that i wait for two year and a half to get the decision and so you told them you were like i basically i need to live here because it's not safe for me to go back home because of my sexuality and you gave them evidence you were like, I basically, I need to live here because it's not safe for me to go back home because of my sexuality. And you gave them evidence, etc. And then they just said, yeah, you have to wait.

Yeah, after two and a half, they sent me, this was in January 2018. They sent me a letter to say, oh, we don't believe that you're gay. We don't believe that you cannot go back to your country. We think you're lying and't believe that you cannot go back to your country we think you are like you're lying and everything like that yeah and in the time between like you applying and now how have you lived like what how have you had money because you're not allowed to work are you no that application goes no i'm not so i have one of my friends who's um i was going to the church before when i was leaving so he when i told him about my sprain he's really old like 17 years

old man so yeah he told me oh listen I have a flat you can come and take care of me you know yeah yeah exactly so I went there and I started living with him and he's you know he's an old man I take care of him and when we have food we eat when we don't have you know you can just stay like that it's really helpful for me and i find this so interesting because i'm not religious at all and i think that sometimes religion especially for you guys in terms of your sexuality that's what's caused a lot of the problems but at the same time religion is clearly a massive community that saves you in so many ways like this man that's helping you out that's really unusual i don't know many people that would just take someone in yeah so it's interesting that to see that but so like now your situation is you're

still just waiting to find out and they won't believe and you've given evidence as to why your sexuality is is is and how many people are in your position do you think how many women are in in like in the uk or in cameroon trying to get out and trying to I think there's a lot of people because even the community I am now there's a lot of people that you know they've been in this situation for like a long but they can't come out because sometimes you can't just speak some people are really ashamed

to speak you know so it's really difficult you need to find a way to talk you know when it's like and in your community that you have like are you are you you guys part of the same community in london can you be openly yeah yeah in that community yeah yeah of course yeah that's good yeah but going forward like what do you wish could i mean obviously you said now that your like relationship with your mom is broken down but you like you feel

hopeful don't you were saying before that yeah yeah I feel really hopeful that thing is going to change and she's going to forgive me and she's going to understand that you know you don't need to be forgiven you haven't done anything wrong I mean because I love my mom you know stay without talking with her it's just something that I can't believe I could do you know so it's really difficult yeah but you haven't you don't need to be forgiven because you haven't nothing wrong because I think that okay one day maybe she's gonna say okay I you know I understand yeah something like that so yeah so yeah no it's just it's just baffling for me to hear because it's it's obviously like I've lived such a privileged life where I'd even if my parents maybe didn't understand if I was gay that would

just kind of be the end of it and they'd probably get over it. But the fact that you guys have to go through the turmoil of your country and your home just being like, no, you can't exist here. You can't be here. But then the other problem is when you get here, you still got like the problems that you're going through. And sorry, I'm going to come. Doris, do you have, are you able to live here easily?

Is your like, so have you got the same problem with you able to live here easily is your like so have you got the same problem with asylum where you live here fine I would say for now to be honest with you the way I'm living my life I live very openly but do you have like

a home at home at home I would say because I have my uncle that one is in the military he threatened me like years ago like since he found out that I'm a lesbian. He said he doesn't. So you can't fully come out yet?

No, I'm out already. So now you know what? It doesn't really matter to me. Now he knows that I'm a lesbian. So to me, to be honest with you, the only thing is that if I go home, I won't be able to live openly. Right. So that would be like taking my, I don't know, I can't live in the height. I can't hide my identity heart i can't that's i

can't hide my identity anymore i've gone so far i've gone so far that i want to really inspire people i want to be a role model to other people yeah so i can't be hiding and you should be one but what we need is more people to understand that like how how awful it is back home for you guys that you can't so we need to be more accepting of refugees and like women like you are just a woman like me we're all the same and you should be have just as much entitlement to live here regardless of where you're from your sexuality or any other factors and i just think that's something we need to kind of try to draw home absolutely but the thing about back home is that it's very difficult because they work according to the law yeah it's been ruled by the it's a country

that's been governed by the law so it's like since it's illegal there is nothing there's absolutely nothing you can do about it and it's so bad because just make suspicion of somebody being a lesbian or gay you just get arrested but it's because everyone's scared it's a bit like probably your friend that told on you she's scared of herself yeah so it's like now if i go home the truth is that i can't live openly which is something i don't want to i can't i live openly in the uk so why do you want me to go somewhere i'll be hiding yeah i can't hide my sexuality that's indirectly taking my life away a hundred percent it's part of you it's me it's me i don't mind it's just me if you tell me to go and hide some way it's like you don't want me to leave it's best to kill me yeah rather than me hiding

why should i hide shouldn't live like absolutely so it's something that i really wish there'll be a time the time will come when the country they will come to accept lgbt people for who they are not being like they are like outcasts or they are criminals or they are they need to accept LGBT people for who they are not being like they are like outcasts or they are criminals or they are they need to accept them like human beings as well I just hope for that time to come like do you know what's interesting you just said that it's just made me think that you're saying your country doesn't accept LGBTQ people and it's not human but that's exactly what the UK is doing with refugees because we're saying like you're not legal like they've said to you Valerie that like you're not legally meant to be here and they're saying to you that you're other and we need to see that if we're sitting here on

our high horse going oh it's fine to be LGBTQ plus and we're so open with that then we need to re address the way that we look at refugees and people who are in crisis areas and let you in because you can't have one and not the other and it comes into feminism and any kind of thing like that is you have to accept everyone as equal so we're just as bad and in some ways because we're being just as alienating we might accept your sexuality but you're still not

fully being registered as a human here which is really... That's the thing, once you find it hard to go to the home office because of exactly what you're saying it's like you get to a point where you have to go to the home office and explain you know already they're going to ask you questions about your sexuality that's the most difficult thing for you to you know for human being to go through it's just that it's lucky enough they don't really ask intimate questions anymore but i know before

they used to ask really intimate questions which is really in truth there are certain things that you don't need to ask somebody at times you feel like not relevant it's not relevant you can't ask somebody what you you can't be asking such questions to be honest to me you're asking for pictures i don't know so certain things are not but now i know one day yeah the way things are going gradually they'll come to a point where they will, day two, the law will change where they'll have to just accept LGBT people for who they are too. Being from other countries as well. I know, yeah, I know.

Yeah, being from here, it's different from us being from back home. We have to go through all of that. Yeah. I just hope one day the government will tend to understand that. Yeah, I agree. That's it. For somebody to talk about their story,

especially about our sexuality, it's really hard. You just, yeah, especially when you've not been through counselling. I have discouraged doctors today because I've been through counselling. Those who have not gone through any sort of counselling, it's really tough for you to stand openly. Especially when you're from Africa. It's so hard. People have been through sexual assault.

They've been through a lot. They've been to prison. You can't explain all the torture people have been through sexual assault. They've been through a lot. They've been to prison. Like, what should you do? You can't explain all those torture people have gone through. So it's really hard for somebody to explain that then you don't believe the person. Then they tend to start bringing evidences. You need evidence to prove. Yeah, and you're just being livid.

It's just like your life. It's like you keep going round and round and they refuse. You have to go through it again. It's like, now just just for them to believe that you are a lesbian or a gay yeah can you imagine what you women are so strong because the things you've been through and you're so smiley and sweet and wonderful and you're happy to come and talk to me and you're just the loveliest people and it it just breaks my heart you've been through so much and you're still sat here feeling like you have to explain yourself.

That's just so unfair. It's because I belong to a community that's always fought for me, to be honest. They made me to realise that no matter what, they have my backing. That's what we all need. You need to be somewhere that you feel like you have a family. I know I have a family. I have people behind me no matter what.

Even if the home office does not want to accept me my community they've accepted me and that's what makes me happy that's what keeps me going yeah help philly has accepted me so so it's like i'm i'm in my church accepted me for who i am i'm in a community that love i love them so much so it's not about the home office i know they might ask all those questions. They have every right. They might ask, but the truth is that it's where I belong. I'm so happy that I'm there today.

Yeah. But that's amazing. I think people could learn so much from that. Even just saying I'm happy. I'm just, yeah, it's just like, you go to like pride when you go out there. It's not just me. You see people happy, celebrating. You are a family.

We are together. It shows a sense of togetherness. Those are the things that we didn't have back home. So when you come here, you see such things. You feel like, you know what? You belong to a community. We are together. And we'll continue to fight together onto the day.

It's really difficult being an LGBT person. It's not just us. Even those who are born here. They still go through tough times too. They do. Especially in the community. They do go through tough times. So I want to say, yeah, I know we go through tough times too yeah they do especially in the community they do go through tough times so i want to say yeah i know we go through that i know other people those who born here too they go through tough times too yeah especially coming out is a stage that is tough to everybody some families are more accepting than other others don't i've been i have

friends their families don't want to have everything to do anything to do with them but they were born here as well it's like it's something that we all go through we all have a journey but we just hope that one day our families will come to terms with us yeah i will accept us for who we are but for them to accept us we have to accept ourself yeah if you don't accept yourself we don't expect other people to accept you if you're not proud of yourself we don't expect other people to be proud of you. It's about you. If you're ashamed of yourself,

others will be ashamed of you too. That's the only, that's how I look at it. So you just need to accept you for who you are. Be proud of yourself. So I believe my sister, I know she will come to them because she don't,

she has seen me on TV, so she has nothing to say. So that's just it. So when she keeps saying all of that that's just it so when she keeps seeing all of that i just really wanted to go like no i'm over it i'm over it yeah i've had enough so that's it she's just herself so that's it so they have to get to that point that break even point you know what take it let me i either take her for who she is now or not that's it so it's a journey so yeah it's amazing so uh so amazing to speak to those two lovely ladies we just played musical chairs they've just moved around the table now

but um philly you work for refugees um so you're often closely working with people who have been through similar situations how can we um as a people in general help or what can we do well i think the like important statistic like to put a statistic on on these like true really true stories is that between 2015 and 2017 three quarters of asylum claims on the basis of sexuality were rejected in the UK so people in the same situation as Valerie and I one of them and it's normal to be outraged by that and to have to feel like you want to do something and over the last three years since we since we started Help Refugees we've been amazed to learn as we as we go that actually writing to your mp and telling them that this is something that matters to you is is something which does work and if enough people

if we are having the conversations if we're talking even just with friends with family having conversations sharing things on facebook, reading articles, and also writing to your MP. You can find your MP's details on Write to Them, if you Google Write to Them, and you can tell them that you want them, you want to see the UK doing more about accepting LGBT refugees and asylum seekers. Quote, the three quarters of people were rejected um on on on on people replying on that basis were rejected between 2015 and 2017 and say that you as as a human being and as a British citizen you're not happy with that and that's because everyone can do that so that's a really great thing to do because I never want to sometimes it's hard you

know when people say like give money or not everyone is able to do that but all of us can write to our MP so that's such a good thing to know yeah I think it's really important and and follow you know again if you you follow say it loud club on Facebook you can follow us and we will always be we always find it really important to to be providing really tangible ways of helping I think in the past charities have been sometimes untransparent about like what they're doing who they're helping we like want to share the stories of the amazing people that we work with like these two ladies here and uh and we want to say we we try to be really really clear about this is what we're doing with your money this is what you can do if you don't have money but you have some time please write to your mp constantly because it's their job and it's in

their best interest to do what their constituents want yeah so there's all we try to make it like there are lots of different ways you can you know 20 quid is one of the rainbow choose love t-shirts and when you buy one of those t-shirts on ASOS, that money will go to supporting groups like Say It Loud in different countries where we work. We're working in 10 countries. So there's loads of different things you can do. And it doesn't have to seem really overwhelming. And I think it can do and has historically felt scary, like knowing where to start, engaging with a cause or even picking something. But I think the important thing is just where to start engaging with a cause or even picking something but I think the

important thing is just like just start just yeah you know google say it loud club sign up to help refugees newsletter whatever it is do something and then your kind of journey begins definitely I do think just even just kind of looking into it a bit more and just learning and being open-minded um I'm going to link everything below with regards to help refugees say it loud the t-shirts um and any other websites that you guys think might be helpful for people to know about but I've absolutely loved hearing from you it's been quite an emotional

time but unbelievable and I'm really grateful for you ladies for coming and doing it with me thank you guys so much thanks so much for listening guys and I will see you next week bye Thanks so much for listening, guys, and I will see you next week. Bye. Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

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