Adulting - #17 'From My Earliest Memories I Just Knew I Was A Girl' with Cambell Kenneford

Episode Date: October 28, 2018

Hi Everyone,I am so happy to be back for a new season of Adulting! In this week's episode I speak to Cambell Kennyford (@cambellxo) - who you may have seen on Channel 4's 'Gender Quake' - about growing up, transitioning, and what it means to be trans-gender in today's world. I do hope you enjoy - as always please do rate, review and subscribe as it helps other people to find the podcast! Oenone x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi guys, welcome to Adulting. This is the podcast where I try to figure out what affects the way that we grew up as millennials and whether or not we are actually grown up at whatever age we're at. And today I am joined by Campbell Kennyford. Hi. So you guys might recognize Campbell from Channel 4's, it wasn't Channel 4, was it? Yeah, Channel 4. Okay, Channel 4's Genderquake, which was a programme all about people that have different sexual identities or different gender identity or different sexual orientation. And basically, it was really eye-opening for me, I guess, because the really interesting part of the show was at the beginning no one kind of knew what anyone's background was.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on kind of like the show yeah um so i did um genderquake on channel four which you just said so it was a two-part um kind of like documentary slash reality series um including a debate as well which took it to three episodes um and the premise of the show was kind of having 11 millennials and young people on that are on different um sides of the gender spectrum and sexuality so with me i'm a transgender woman and then we had other people who are transgender men non-binary gender fluid yes um genderqueer gay bisexual lesbian so i feel like it explored the whole spectrum instead of just one segment of it so I know that things like non-binary before hadn't ever been really shown on tv so that was quite refreshing really interesting and also it was interesting to see how like different people

dealt with different things because there was a transgender man who didn't want anyone to know that he'd transitioned yes whereas like with you are you happy to be called a transgender woman or do you just want to be called a woman obviously you want to be just called a woman yeah ideally yeah I always say that I'm a woman first and transgender second yeah because obviously trans is always going to be a part of who I am and I am proud to be trans however I just do want to be a woman at the end of the day and that's that's why I made the transition because that's how I always felt inside so definitely I am a trans woman but I do prefer just to say woman but you know there's so many different variations of a woman like I see woman as an umbrella term and then everything kind of like trickles underneath yeah you can be any kind of woman

I think what age did you like was it forever that you're just like I'm just not in the right body yeah I think I first started noticing probably when I was like, I don't know, it's hard to say because, you know, when you're young you don't really remember, yeah. But like, from my earliest memories, I can just remember being different. I can't specify what age, but I remember I was like, always playing with Barbies, like, I was obsessed with the Spice Girls, like, I thought I was Posh Spice or Baby Spice. I'm a girl basically and um I used to put like a towel on my head and like pretend I was like Ariel from the Still Mermaid and then my mum used to be like oh you always used to ask me when you're younger like weren't I a girl so from like my earliest earliest memories I always just remember like

you just were a girl basically yeah just in the wrong body exactly so then what age were you when you like I'm gonna actually kind of transition now yeah so I was thinking like I probably sorry no so when I was about 12 years old I started to like wear makeup right and I used to paint my nails for school so was that okay how did you find that like like, being in school? Were people mean to you or? They were, but they weren't at the same time. Like, I had a very good circle of friends who were all kind of, like, the popular girls.

So they kind of, like, protected me in a way. Yeah. And, like, if boys were ever mean to me, you know, they always stuck up for me. So I think that helped a lot. Like, I had a really good friendship group. That's such a, like, positive. Because I guess I've never seen it, when you when I do hear stories and stuff you often see like the sad yeah side of it so that's actually really lovely to know that already like

in our gender because we're basically the same age I know that people generations younger than us like 16 17 year olds are so forward thinking like a lot more than I think my friends and I were at school but to know that you had that experience then as well yeah really nice yeah so I it was nice to have that obviously like a boy wearing makeup at school at 12 years old is gonna encounter any kind of like a little bit of like name calling like occasionally which I mean doesn't didn't affect me that much luckily um because I've always been quite strong and just been like you know what like I'm myself so at so at 12 I started wearing makeup and it just kind of like every kind of year it just kind of got like more progressive so I started to like grow my hair when I was 13. Yeah your hair's amazing I was literally thinking that. Oh it's extension so yeah I got a little bit of help but when I was like 13 14 yeah I started to grow my hair and it was like foundation and then

I remember I was like I didn't want to get my hair cut and I was like to my mum okay I think I was 15 and I told her like this is what I want to do now like I don't want to get my hair cut again yeah and that was kind of like my metaphor for saying I wanted to transition and then she was like okay so what do we do next and my mum was always really supportive that's so nice yeah so she was like okay what's the next step and then it just kind of went from there so that's kind of age that I told everyone and I told my friends before and it's really funny actually because we made like a list like I remember we were at this like party and I was like 15 and like we made this like list of like pros and cons of doing it and like when I look back on it oh my god that's insane because now I couldn't see any cons but back then I must have been in so two minds

about doing it although it's obviously what I wanted to do I guess it must have been so scary like it's just such a big choice not because you think it's wrong but just because it's like it's such a big decision to make yeah like even I guess undergoing surgery like even if I got like breast augmentation and like people wouldn't necessarily be judging me for doing that I think it'd still be such a big step because it's like changing yourself but then in a way like if it's made you feel so much more comfortable and and do you in day-to-day life now like do you ever feel like people you well you look like a woman like you are a woman like you need to stop saying like no honestly it's fine that's something that's interesting do you get offended by language like how strictly about what like when especially when you were transitioning was that a really hard

thing to make people kind of change the words they used yeah so i think for language i'm i'm pretty open like obviously like i would never want to be called like a him or a he or anything like if someone did that to me like i would be offended because that's not me and i don't like i don't understand how someone could look at me and say still say he do you come across ignorant people though who when they find out you are you have transitioned that want to call you like masculine words um i haven't ever come across anyone that's wanted to say that but obviously i have come across people that haven't been so positive yeah um but it's i've never come across one that's been like he or anything like that that's so good i don't know what i just in my head I see like I don't know because I read

like you know when you end up on the Daily Mail comments oh yeah yeah yeah and you're just like what is wrong with people and actually

I was listening to Germaine Greer oh yeah on um ways to change the world literally earlier on today yeah and she just

just doesn't understand like at all it just her comments on it are just so redundant because I think what people don't get

and when people get offended by it it's like it doesn't affect You it's like making someone else happy And it does not like change your life in Any way shape or form like I don't understand why anyone Would not want that to be a thing Yeah and it's I guess it's the same

With like sexuality but you're so you're Straight you're a straight woman Yes yeah well How do you say it She was so drunk at the debate show, by the way. Oh, was she on the debate? She was on the debate as well. Oh my God, no, I haven't watched that then.

Oh no, it was like Caitlyn Jenner, Jermaine Greer, Munro Bagdor. But were you there with them? No, so I wasn't on the panel, but I was with the people from the show. And then we did like a bit of an interview. What was she like on the show? Who? Jermaine. Oh, she was like, she just seemed to not know how she actually felt.

Yeah that's what I mean. She didn't really know what she was talking about. I don't know what song. She kept saying something backtracking and then yeah but she was really drunk so. Oh interesting. Maybe she's just apparently drunk. She's also really quite old as well. Yeah bless her. Like I don't know if my granny who's not alive anymore, I don't know if she would have understood if I tried

to explain it. Yeah and do you know what like sometimes you just can't change people's minds. Change people't change people like they've grown up for so many years and like so obviously like it's not nice but sometimes you just can't change people and you can't be conditioning yeah wait what were we saying before that i forgot oh yeah that was it so do you you're a straight woman oh right sexuality right how does that work so before i went on genderquake i was like i'm a straight woman all i want to be known is as a straight woman i'd never fancied a girl before ever in my life and then so then i went on the show and obviously i got with howie yeah um which i was so shocked that i fell for a gal and then from the show now like i've just realized that my sexuality

personally is fluid now and i wouldn't walk down the street and be like, oh my God, she's really hot or anything. But now, if I did meet a gal in the future or I did meet someone that was trans, trans man, trans woman, I wouldn't judge them for that. You'd be open to seeing if something could happen. Yeah, so I wouldn't say pansexual because I hate all of these terms.

I hate like, sexual, sexual, sexual. I just want to be like, just me. But this is the thing thing there's so many words now it's like we might as well just not have them because what you can't it's literally every time it's like lgbtq plus something whatever it is and I just feel like I personally think that everyone is on a on a spectrum of something yeah I've only ever been in straight relationships but it wouldn't surprise me if I could fall in love with a woman just because i think that people are way too conditioned to believe that we only function in one way but if you look back at history and like everything years ago like the ancient greeks and everything like that no one was like there was no such thing as

straight yeah which is what's really weird yeah so we've kind of almost gone like back yeah we have like constructed it yeah so i think in this day and age like sexuality is fluid yeah and gender is fluid and everyone does whether you like it or not you are on a spectrum whether that's at zero or ten like everyone is on that spectrum yeah and like i do see sexuality is just so fluid now and what the other thing i think is really interesting about like what we're going back to surgery is just thinking like when a woman who was born in the right in that body could have as much surgery as you've had and no one would probably think it was that big a deal but it's like i think people judge you because they're like oh they're

undertaking such a big thing and changing their body so much but women all the time now are undergoing like loads of surgery and stuff so it's hardly like what you're doing is revolutionary or really like life-changing because people are always changing their bodies it just so happens that you're doing yours to reflect how you feel and like what gender you identify as so i think that's quite an interesting thing but was that like a big is there more that you want to do surgery wise yeah um have you had top and bottom yes i've had those two surgeries and i've had my lips done, but I haven't had anything else done. But I don't know. I'm actually going to Turkey to get my veneers done as well. But why Turkey?

Just because it's cheaper? It's cheaper. And also like that's where like everyone is going. Really? Is that a thing? That's a thing. But you got your surgery done in the UK? Yeah, I had my boobs done and my gender reassignment done in the UK as well.

So now, can I ask you, does it look like a fanny yeah it looks like exactly they turn it is this can i ask this as well yeah do they turn it inside out is that what happens kind of like i can give you a talk through if you want like the property so obviously you have the penis and then okay i don't know the exact thing in now because i i don't want to go into it too much because i when i think about it it's squeamish oh my god no you don't have to tell me then no but i'll no i'll try okay it's what they do i believe they cut the foreskin yeah as if they're like circumcised and so on because they actually use the um foreskin as the clit no the like the i don't know the lips is that the right word for it? Labia Yeah, labia, that's the one

And then they kind of like chop the penis in half And then they kind of like puncture a hole inside you And then they invert that And they also use some of the foreskin as the vagina tunnel So obviously like you know you have like vagina walls And inside you have nerve endings in them So it's to make the sensation To make the sensation

And then they use the penis head as the clip Because when you're in the womb As a fetus Everyone starts off as a girl don't they Yes So then you start off and then a willy grows from the clip Yeah I don't know So technically they're just putting it back

Exactly and also like the brain actually develops Before your genitals That's so interesting So really like maybe my brain my brain just didn't go and um grow into a masculine one but i somehow grew a penis that's so but then what was really interesting was what was the woman who was actually like had both um brooke on the show yeah yeah so she doesn't actually have both but she was born with a disease called kleinfelter syndrome i believe it's called and which means she was born in a male body but her body naturally produces uh oestrogen at the rate that a female does

so she's just that's so interesting isn't it yeah so her body kind of like transition itself so she grew long hair naturally and grew boobs naturally and like grew like a female body naturally but she has a willy but she has but she kept it yeah she has kept it and she's happy of keeping it and that's what i think is like a big misconception that trans women or trans men have to have surgery to become the gender that they are or there's this big thing oh um i had surgery and became the woman i was i feel like you're a woman or a man with or without the surgery and it's just your personal working into other do you think that um we put like gender too heavily on sex like do you think that if we weren't so rigid with like

are what women are and what men were you could live more comfortably with whichever sexual parts but be like a feminine person do you know what i mean yeah like do you mean as in like i think in society we're so binary about what we think mean as in like i think so i think like in society we're so binary about what we think a man is what we think a woman is like a woman's gentle and sweet and feminine and pretty and a man is like strong and hard and all those things do you think if society wasn't quite so like this is what a man is this is what a woman is men are masculine women are feminine do you think that you could feel more comfortable it would also be so different from what it is now because we do live in such a heteronormative society.

But if it wasn't like that, do you think you could have kept your, like, sexual organs but still been like a woman? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean, but I didn't get my surgery because of, like, the... Apart from the... I didn't get my surgery with the... I don't know how to say this in my mind

i didn't get the surgery because of what society so the woman should be i got the surgery because in my because i wanted it and because there was no change in my mind and that's how i personally felt but you know there is trans women that don't want that surgery but it doesn't discount their womanhood or it doesn't make them any less of a woman but then like when you're talking about like um you know women are pretty or not pretty like like gentle feminine stuff and men are like masculine and then it just kind of takes it back to that topic that's like men have to be this woman have to be this and i personally i have met so many men recently that are straight and that are not afraid to

you know experiment not with their sexuality but they're like feminine side or you know that I feel like nowadays people aren't afraid to just live who they are and like do something that might be conceived a bit more feminine or masculine I think that's what needs to change 100% especially like when we look at male rates of suicide and stuff loads of that is literally down to that that men feel like they can't be like let sides of them out so that that's definitely like such a problematic thing within society and i think just generally realizing that there's a different sliding scale and that life is for kind of like expressing yourself yeah rather than fitting into some kind of mold yeah but how many because i don't actually think i have one i don't

know one trans someone who's transitioned and like i don't want to say trans person because I think that's like putting them first you know I mean it's not very nice we're saying it but how many how common is it you know like how many people do you think feel like they can't express themselves because you obviously were quite fortunate in the way that like your friendship were really supportive and your mum was really supportive but do you think that's not always the case yeah it isn't always the case like i have a lot of trans friends just from being in like the trans scene yeah so i have a lot of like trans female friends and i would say most of their families do accept them some don't some have to move away or they're not in contact with the family but you know i receive so many messages on instagram all the time like i like they're just

like if you look at their profile they're just men and they get i get like messages saying like oh my god you're so brave like i wish i could do what you do but i feel like i can't yeah it actually makes me so emotional because like i just can't imagine like living like that and even like getting to that age is is so like horrible it's like living your life as a lie i guess yeah and it makes me so sad because i know because you're like gonna cry yeah no because i just can't ever imagine living like not being able to be who you are being being who i am and then to see like people on their instagram then seeing their faces and their pictures and you can just see like they're

not happy and it just it just makes me so sad but um i think the future is changing and hopefully one day we will get to a stage where people are comfortable coming out and being themselves i think so because i think if you look back at even when we were at school like people being gay or those ever used to tease people whereas now it's so no one would blink an eye well hopefully like in the friendship groups that i'm in being gay it's not a big deal no one cares about sexuality i think like being transgender is the next thing that's kind of, it's still quite new, but it's,

people are starting to get a lot more, like, familiar with it. What about in terms of, like, with Caitlyn Jenner, what do you think of her as, like, do you think she's good for the community? Do you think, like, what do you, or do you not really have an opinion? No, when Caitlyn Jenner, like, first come out, like, I was obsessed with her. Like, I loved her so much just because, like,

I thought she was, like, it's so brave with the career that she's had and then be able to come out and like put herself on that like world platform for like millions of people to see I thought she was so brave obviously I don't necessarily agree with like all her political views or what she's done after her platform but I think she gave, not transferred hope, but like she made people, she started a conversation, I think. Yeah, for sure. And I feel like people don't give her enough credit.

No, I agree. I actually do think it's such a massive thing to do. Like, especially when you're saying like, Bruce Jenner was like one of the most famous sporting people ever. So like to go from that to the other extreme. And it is probably one of the most famous transitions in history really, isn't it?

Like I can't really think of anyone else that's that famous that's exactly kind of I mean there's people like Eddie Izzard who's always like

cross-dressed and stuff which I know is not the same thing that he was always in the public eye no one seemed to judge him but he was a massive like anomaly

but in terms of like people actually being transgender I didn't really know exactly of anyone yeah and you see like I think it's so

like probably because of her family like you see pictures like, I think it's probably because of her family. You see pictures like Kit and Jen like Kanye. FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

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Research and supply. See full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com. Please play responsibly. And then I think the media kind of like forms everyone's opinions and then from then people like look at that and they're like actually do you know what like it's fine yeah so I think it is such a inspiring thing of her to do but I don't agree with like the way she's used yeah I know what you mean she could she could have done so much but then it's kind of like who are we to say oh she has to do this it's not her responsibility

and it's up to her if she wants to do that or not and she doesn't so when did you when you got content about genderquake were you like 100% I want to do it um well actually so my friend was a producer on the show okay so it was more like an acquaintance and friend but I met him like five years ago in like a nightclub and we stayed with friends on facebook and he messaged me he was like um i'm casting for this show and the when he said like the format and everything i was like oh my god i need to do this like i've wanted to do something like this for so long because i've i've previously like been approached by other tv shows and haven't done them because i didn't think it would be a good way to tell my story right so i was like okay i'm just gonna do it and then yeah like when he when he said it like

i wanted to do it but then so don't worry and then um and then so i forgot where i was when you were like yeah i want to do it yeah so i did want to do it and then they came to my house and did like filming and stuff and then i was like actually i'm not sure um because everyone's gonna like not know who i am but everyone's gonna like know your history yeah because on Instagram before I wasn't I didn't tell anyone I was trans so no one actually knew on my Instagram yeah or like my social media so and a lot of people I spoke to like on the internet or like occasionally like had no clue so coming out and doing that and then I had people like oh my god I had no idea did you find it like kind of in some ways was it quite like a relief or was it were you a bit like a

little bit of you was like I kind of don't want everyone to know this about me yeah I would I would say I wouldn't find I didn't find it a relief because I didn't necessarily hide it but it wasn't open with that but if someone asked me I wouldn't lie yeah maybe sometimes but I think that's one of the biggest questions that like people always ask it's like are you meant to tell someone like do people always say that to you like because I don't think that it's your job to tell anyone but when it comes to like sexual relationships then do you think you should always have to tell someone um it's so hard because it just differs fromers from situation to situation Yeah

So I've been in situations where I've met a guy And I haven't told them And then I tell them and they're fine with it Or I tell them and they're not fine with it But I haven't ever been in a bad situation But it's like Their stories would be like people actually are murdered For telling a guy that they're trans

I know And it's just so horrific and it's just it's part of this toxic masculine masculine thing they like the way to fix the people that like that is actually to make people more educated about people who have transitioned or who want to transition because until we stop making the world so black and white with men and women where men feel like their masculinity has been attacked because they think they've been cheated, but they haven't. These men aren't the epitome of what it means to be man and manliness. It's actually just ignorance and lack of understanding of the nuance of people.

I think that's the scariest part about it. As a woman, day to day, let alone being a trans woman, I can't even imagine that fear. But I even say to my boyfriend, at some point every day I think I'm going to get killed. At some point of time when I'm like, he's i'll say they'll say like oh have you got a boyfriend i'm again they'll be like oh you can't believe it's that you got the house like that and i'm like please don't speak to me or something i'll be like suck my dick or i'll kill you some like twice people have told me they're gonna kill me like yeah the last like

two months yeah literally like i have exactly the same feeling but with me like if someone speaks to me like obviously i don't want them to know I'm trans. So I'm like, like, I just, it is scary. Because I'm like, okay, I'm going to tell this person no, that I don't want to, you know, go suck their dick or something. And tell this person no, but I don't want them to see that I'm trans at the same time. So I kind of, like, have to be, like, extra, extra careful.

Because not that they're going to know, but, like, I can imagine that fear inside you must be tripled because it already scares me that was something that jermaine gray said on this freaking podcast which is awful she basically said that like she was like at least women can get out of being murdered um by getting raped whereas men don't have that option as if like i know so she was saying that like if a woman was going to get murdered because she wouldn't sleep with someone she she could just get raped by them instead. Oh my God, are you kidding? She said that?

No, she said that on the podcast. Wow. I know, I know. That is disgusting. And I think what people don't understand is like this fear of like, like the fear of being assaulted is so massive. And I was actually listening to a really good episode

on the Guilty Feminist about like toilets and stuff. And Debra Francis, do you ever listen to the Guilty Feminist? No, I really should though. Oh, it's really good. It's a really good podcast, my fave. And basically she was saying how, oh, surely when you transition,

like one of the things that's most exciting is like learning to have like a woman's bathroom because like everyone knows that in girls' toilets, it's like where everyone goes in the clubs and everyone talks about it and it's really fun. And there was someone who's transgender talking about how all toilets should basically be non-gendered because some people won't let transgender women go into women'sed because some people won't let transgender women

go into women's toilets and some people won't let transgender women go into men's toilets and either way it just makes it a really difficult space and i hadn't really thought about that like even if you're already transitioned and you go into the bathroom you still might feel like some people are too ignorant to understand that you're allowed to be there yeah i have never had that but i think you're very yeah like you just look like a woman yeah i i have been quite lucky like i've never had an experience like that um and i do know a few people that have however like with um um gender neutral toilets i do believe some of like i don't know like i do agree with it in certain spaces like maybe like restaurants um

bars or like lgbt clubs or some places but sometimes like when i'm on a night out like i just want to go to the bathroom and not be around boys like i want to go to the bathroom like my girlfriends and like talk about boys or like apply my lip gloss i was saying and then someone was like but that's you having your like gender privilege because you're there like you can always have that space whereas they i think the person was arguing i can't remember how well but they're basically arguing like we've never had the privilege but we feel safe so like you have to give that thing up and deborah was like no yeah i think maybe there should just be an option yeah

like have men's wounds and in the middle and then in the middle because i i do think it's a big thing for people to say oh gender neutral is everywhere and because we've just become so accustomed to that however i do think it is necessary in some places and aspects but i mean i don't understand why people would be you know so like expect everyone to you know to conform to that yeah i know what you mean and even if it was just like or single toilets but they have quite a lot but then i think oh that was the thing i think she was saying like if we had to go into like a men's bathroom she was like we might feel like threatened but as you're saying like i think what people need to understand like in the trans community it's such

a big i think it's much more in america isn't it yeah it's a big really well in america yeah like um i sometimes like can't get my head around that someone would be uncomfortable with someone going to the toilet like they're just trying to go to the toilet and then you have all these things like oh you know but like pedophile is like gonna just go into a woman's toilet and pretend but like when has that like happened like I can't think of a story where that has happened it's just people using their fear of transness I think it's transphobia because yeah people will be like oh they're gonna like they'll use an example of like a pedophile or um a creepy man and it's like who's gonna actually genuinely transition just no one's gonna do that like it's such not people

like i'm gonna imagine that like anyone who's transitioned would be so insulted to think that anyone would think it's an easy thing to just be like oh lol I'm gonna go transition now like I don't think anyone's making that choice for the sake of it or with some ulterior motive like there's a real reason why people do it and I think people just need to be I I know that it's like it's funny because I remember when I first started learning about like transgender and stuff it really like confused me and I remember feeling like a bit like I don't understand so I just made myself watch loads of documentaries. I think I was in my first year of uni. Yeah. And then since then, I've just found it really fine.

Yeah. I forget that when people initially get their head around it, some people are just a bit like, I don't understand, which is why I think we need more platforming of trans people in films, movies, and like programs like you on, which I think is really progressive and cool. Yeah. Because it showed so many different things and it had people in there who weren't who were really heteronormative um and so it was really interesting to see those reactions yeah but do you find that it's like mostly older generations who are less understanding

or is it like a mix i would say it's a mix but i would say it's mostly older generations like i think people in our age group would mostly be fine with it um however i think in some communities like they they're not as accepting but mostly like i would say it is the older generation i can't think of a time when i've met someone in my age group that hasn't accepted me or has made comments like even if I like me sorry a friend of a friend it they're like they're fine with that so the other thing is like do you feel I know we're literally sat here talking about it but do you feel like it's become such a big narrative in your life like I bet some days you just wake up and you're just like I wish I didn't have to bloody talk about having

transitions sometimes but like I think the whole media thing it for me is new or talking about it for me is new because i only filmed genderquake it was literally like september 2017 i mean 2018 yeah september 2018 so i feel like talking about it for me is kind of like new yeah because before i never talked about it so i'm not fed up fed up of it just yet but i'm sure I'll get there but um yeah I hope one day like trans people can just be known for being them and not being trans or I'm introduced as like just Campbell or not trans yeah but then it kind of like yeah I think it's really interesting because it's like there's lots of arguments people use throughout history like to explain like gayness and all this stuff oh it's not natural but there's a really amazing

book that i read by this author um he's got three books out actually and one of his points was like if something wasn't natural we wouldn't be able to do it like that's what the meaning of natural is so like you can't be like oh my god this isn't natural it's like if you can literally put a willy in a baton hole then it's natural by the by the fact that you can do it like yeah he doesn't say he's really intelligent he doesn't know but like it's just about how people don't understand like what people need to realize is if we have the capability of doing something and believing something then it is absolutely normal and it's absolutely fine and like things we just need to kind of get up to date with with making people feel happy and comfortable because the real cusp of the issue

is it's like making you feel like you can be a part of society and be the person that you want to be which is beneficial to everyone in every sense like the economy and your family and your friends and people who aren't looking at that they're just they're just fearful of like the unknown aren't realizing that it's like a person i think that's the real like problem yeah that people need to get over but if people who want to transition don't have the confidence or or like maybe don't know what would you like want to say to people or like is there any advice you have um it's so hard for me to say like oh be brave do this do this because for some people it's just not easy like like compared to a lot of people i have had an easy ride and just like obviously my advice for anyone would be you know be yourself never forget why you're putting this out if you're

always you know you were put here for a reason and don't feel like turn your negatives in your mind to a positive and don't be like oh you know this is never gonna go away or i feel like a freak like turn that into a positive like you're not a freak i'm unique and you're do you know what i mean like you'd have to kind of like your brain is like i don't know how to um describe it on my mind but like i think it's important to remember why you're put on this earth and just you know you maybe you are different from other people but and there's going to be so many days when like you want to end it or you want to cry but like there's going to be so much many more better days and like once you get over that hurdle you know you're going to be so happy that you live like your fun or your authentic life yeah i think it's just i think it is i genuinely think we're in like

a really cool well scary and cool at the same time yeah but there's like some places everything's so progressive and i feel like everyone's being kinder and then the other half of it is just like everything's going backwards yeah i definitely feel like we're kind of in that time i'm not sure how to say it but like we're in that time where it's like something's gonna change like we're in like a shift like a gender quake like we're like right in the middle yeah we are like things like being like shaken up and like it's not like 50 50 i would say more people are for it than against it but we're kind of in that time where like it's shifting like similar to like gay rights like yeah it's moving and now gender rights are coming to the forefront i think it's even just stuff like seeing people wearing like um androgynous clothing or just dressing

like in a in a way that isn't necessarily that presenting of their gender and that i feel like even five years ago it wasn't that big and now you're just so accustomed to it and it's I think things are happening I think things are getting better but it's just that now that people are talking about it we know that things can be really bad yeah absolutely and I have this um friend she's like straight and she's got a boyfriend like he like he sometimes like wears nail varnish yeah and like it's just such like a like, I know it's so little, but, like, when she told me, I was like, that is, like, the cutest thing ever.

Because, like, to them, like, it's not a big deal, but, like, to me, it's like, oh, my God, like, straight man's just, like, being who he wants to be, and I think that's so great. Yeah, I think that's amazing. I think it's so true. It's about embracing these little things, and also getting rid of microaggressions.

There's so many things in our language and the way we act that we don't realise actually might be really insulting. So, like, if you take the piss out of your guy friend for blow drying his hair or like really small things like that just reinforce these gender stereotypes which for you have no idea what's going through someone's head so even just saying like really small things i think it's just we have to be really conscious to try and use language that is like inclusive and also try and just see that not everyone's going to think about things the way that you think about them and just being like

open to talk yeah i i so agree with that and i think what people need to realize is some like that like it's good to do that but sometimes there's going to be mistakes made and it we are kind of like learning a new way of like language and speaking so i think people get offended by it so quickly nowadays and i think it's just kind of like you have speaking so I think people get offended by it so quickly nowadays and I think it's just kind of like you have to bear with people and this isn't like something that they're used to like it's something new so I think we should you know be patient with people not expect everyone to know everything about trans or know everything about LGBT it is new yeah and I think I think some people are too hard on

some people sometimes i think it's social media as well because i do this i try and like use that progressive language but everyone will call you up so quickly so i feel like i'm constantly like staying on top of what i'm allowed to say yeah and i think it's just because for the first time ever we're putting everything online so you could read like everyone's life you know exactly what they think whereas normally if you say something a bit wrong probably someone wouldn't even really notice but it's because it's like in front of so many different people exactly that it gets quite scary and i have seen that as well where people get really upset when the wrong pronouns been used or something and that is quite difficult just because with our natural language some people want to be called they yes that's like with non-binary which is

really hard because it doesn't like fit the sentence. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so that is, that's like something that's quite new. So I think now it's like non-binary. So like that's the thing now. So instead of calling them... So you'd say, for example, there was someone on the show called Saf. And so you'd say, how they used to put it, you wouldn't be like, she is cool. Or they'd be like, they are cool. Right.

So yeah, like they prefer like they, them, them there and they don't feel like male or female but at the same time they don't they don't feel confused in their gender they are they they don't feel like either but they're comfortable in the middle i think this is exactly what my point was though because gender is completely made up like we've made yeah it's like a construct yeah so like you can have your sex which is like whatever your organs are and it's like a construct. Yeah. So, like, you can have your sex, which is, like, whatever your organs are. And it's fine for you to want either or. But fundamentally, like, being a woman and being, or, like, femininity and masculinity are just made up anyway. Yeah, exactly.

There's no reason why you should have to 100%, like, agree with either. That makes complete sense to me. Yeah. And it's even only in the last, like, I think, pre-Victorian times, like, they had complete different understandings of what gender was as well. Like, before, I think they used to think

women were made up of, like, half hot and half cold. Have you heard of this? No. So you're, like, half red,

half blue, and one's, like, power and passion, the other side is, like, feeling and emotion. Okay.

And then this one psychologist was like, no, no, women are all feeling and emotion, and men are all power and passion.

And that's when they started to think that women weren't, like, as sexually, like, awakened as men. and that's when it all came in and then after that prostitution became like a really awful job whereas before everyone's like oh yeah women love yeah so there's all these weird things that have happened in really recent times yeah that no i 100% agree with that like gender like is just like something that we've been conditioned

to believe to believe and then it takes it back to the same argument. It's like, women are this, men are that. Like, no, we're just, like, people. Just decide what we are, yeah. If a woman wants to, like, go ridescape, which she can, if a man wants to, like, put on a bit of mascara, he can. So I think it just takes it back to that kind of, like, yeah. I think now it seems like I look at it and it's so simple

and it's just, like, me seeing a person. I think it's just an ignorant and it's, like, it's just a bit backward to not be able to see that anymore so hopefully i think that's like changing which it is with our generation yeah 100 and it's it's good to like see yeah but oh my god it's been so nice to speak to you oh yeah definitely coming on thank you you look so fab as well i'm literally just wearing like trackers and a crop top open the door and cam's like hi she's got like the best outfit on. Oh no, sorry, look bad. Thank you.

Well, thank you so much. Where can we find you online? Yeah, so you can follow me at CampbellXO. So that's C-A-M-B-E-L-L-X-O. No P. Everyone always spurs it with a P. Do you know what? I went to do that, but does Campbell, when it's a name, have a P in it?

Is it just because of the soup? Has the soup got a P in it? Yeah. Or Naomi Campbell, a bit more glamorous. Oh, yeah, fine. Than Campbell's soup. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. No, I'm joking.

But, like, yeah, people spell it with, like, C-M-P-B-E-R. I actually almost went to do that when I was texting my boyfriend and saying, I had to go back on your profile and check. Because I was like, I knew it didn't have a P, because I'd written, like, an email, and then I was like, does it? No, no, no. Campbell. Campbell.

Campbell. Can afford. Because what did I say? You were like, how do you say your second name can afford can afford can afford Campbell can afford okay amazing are you on twitter or anything as well yeah just the same Campbell I'd say yeah amazing well thank you so much for coming on oh no thank you so much thanks for listening guys and I will see you again soon bye Fandu Casino Daily Jackpots guaranteed to hit by 11 p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling winning which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

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