Adulting - #18 Domestic Abuse with Alice Liveing

Episode Date: November 4, 2018

In this episode I speak to @aliceliving about our domestic abuse experiences.https://www.womensaid.org.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIke-XltC63gIVwaoYCh0X1wNJEAAYAiAAEgK6-PD_BwE Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fandu Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11 p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily Jackpots. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario.

Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11pm Eastern. Research and supply. See full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com. Please play responsibly. Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. This is the podcast where I try to figure out all the things that we're supposed to know as grown-ups but probably don't know and also looking at things

that shape the way we grow up in this world and today I'm joined by Alice. Hello. So Alice is a author, personal trainer, Instagram influencer, fitness extraordinaire. How else would you introduce yourself? That's a very nice introduction, I'm blushing. Yeah, the only other thing that I add to that sometimes is that I used to be a performer. Oh yeah. Back in the day. I actually have that in my head.

You're an Annie, aren't you? I was, I was. Yeah. And so today, Alice and I are going to talk about a bit of a sensitive topic, but we kind of wanted to go into talking about toxic relationships and domestic abuse. So it's quite a heavy one, but I think it's something that's maybe a bit more common than we think. Absolutely. And I think like the more we can talk about it and normalise talking about it, the more or the less people sorry that will probably

be at home not telling anyone yeah you know I hope that people listen to this will listen to um some of the other stuff that I've done talking about my experiences and be like oh god and even notice like things in their relationship that they wouldn't necessarily have as abuse but actually might have been so yeah it's really interesting because Alice is probably one of the first ever fitness people I followed and I got into fitness because I came out of a really bad relationship when I was in my end of my first year of uni and I had no idea that you'd ever been or anything like that and I think I wrote one post about it once maybe like two years ago I remember following you because I followed you as well um soon after you followed me and I remember

seeing your relationship and it's really funny and I think this is the world that we live in now but like to all um exterior people I would have never known that anything was wrong and your relationship online was always very kind of no that was my boyfriend after oh sorry oh my god no that's fine so before I had an instagram okay sorry sorry so then i kind of made it after we broke up got it and got into had a pt because i was like in my head i was like i'm gonna fix this all well i kind of explained so i was in this relationship but it wasn't like a whole year i don't think and i basically he kind of made me feel like he was my whole life so he made me feel like everything was dependent

on him he was like you can't go back home over the summer what would you have to move in with me so I lived with him over the summer when I was at uni he used to stop me from seeing all my friends didn't like any of my friends he was quite like controlling he'd be like you're not very attractive not this blah blah and then it culminated eventually in him actually like physically going like again beating me up however you want to say it and then I kept getting back with him because like I remember going to see him after I'd been to the hospital with my mum and my mum was like you can't see him you can't go back to uni like I'm so your mum knew yeah well I rang my sister the next day and told her and she was like you

need to get trained to London now um and I was like don't tell mum so I won't tell mum obviously got there and my mum looked at me and was like what the hell has happened and she knew like straight away so they took me to the hospital and then they were like you need to tell us who's done this and I would not say and my mum was saying his name but they were like it has to come from you and I just wouldn't say I was I'm not going to tell on him like I don't want him to get in trouble he had a previous criminal record for getting in fights when he was drunk is what he said but obviously yeah god knows and then I went back to uni and I saw him and he cried and I felt really bad for him and I rang his mom and I said

I hope you know that I'm not gonna get in the trouble like your brain is so yeah so like everything you're saying I'm like oh my god it's almost like you're shining a mirror on like my experiences and I think you're right in that you highlighted that first behavior is that isolation. So it's like, it always starts very kind of slow. And it almost, I always say, I was 16, and I hadn't really had many proper relationships before. It was probably my first serious relationship. And so when someone wanted to know where I was all the time and to know what I was doing, to look at my

phone, to ask who I was speaking to, to question whether I was like speaking to other boys, I in my head was like, oh my God, this boy must really like me. Like he must really like me. I like how amazing, you know, I've never had someone be like this before. And as a teenage girl who I'm sure we all did suffer from you know confidence issues and trying to find yourself in the world for someone to like pin pinpoint you as like I like this person and I want to spend my all my time with them you feel really special and I had a lot of stuff going on at home that meant that I just always wanted to be out of the house I wanted to be out I wanted to be doing stuff I I wanted independence quite young and I was always

very kind of like um strong-willed and strong-minded and so he gave me that freedom so at the same time as him almost like closing his clasp on me I never saw it as that I saw it as wow how amazing is this how exciting I'm going around with a guy that drives and um that you know is really cares about me buys me stuff takes me for nice dinners and that's how he sort of really reeled me in and I'm sure like yours was the same and the physical stuff only crept in after like I would say maybe like i can't remember exactly but i would say maybe four months and it always starts like really um small yeah and i always say to people like when you see domestic violence on tv it's it's never it's never the same it's always very dramatic and you don't really see the psychological elements of what actually goes into the whole domestic violence experience.

Or the experience of a domestic violence relationship. Because for me, it wasn't about the slap or the hit or whatever or the emotional abuse. It was like the stuff that came afterwards. And it was, so the first time we were in the car, we were driving. I'd gone to watch him play football and that was another thing like i dropped everything i'd bring him in lunch i would i'd like miss a lecture to go and take his lunch to where he worked yeah i dropped everything and suddenly became this person who was wanting to spend every minute of every day with this person with him and so i'd gone to um watch him play football on a weekend

and we were in the car driving back and I can't even remember what I'd said honestly can't remember but I remember I was wearing shorts and my leg my like bare leg was out and I'd obviously said something that struck a chord with him and the next thing he just took his hand and like slapped my thigh so hard and I was just like oh my god like what's just happened like and you almost can't process it it's like oh my god like I've just been slapped and like my only my only other experience of having that was when I was like told off as a kid yeah um sorry mum you did do it sometimes um but like that was my only other experience of it but what happened after that was the oh my god I'm so sorry I didn't mean to do that oh my god I'm such an awful person and the kind of and then I found myself being like oh no don't worry you're

okay like oh my god you're fine and he ended up getting so uh worked up about it and then you know then he'd take me out for a nice dinner yeah oh I'm so sorry and suddenly I was like I was the one apologizing to him anyways this is what what you're saying is so interesting because I think no one realizes so when that culminated and he actually like hit me everyone my mom my sister my friends were all like really worried about it but by the time we'd got there that wasn't even like a big deal because all I was like prepped and primed for that like that didn't hurt any more than the emotional abuse like he would it'd be small things like he'd say we're gonna go out for dinner get dressed up and i'd turn up and be like i don't want to go

and then be like go back home and that was so humiliating just like humiliation it was like mortifying that's yeah it is it is the humiliation and you're so right like i part of the reason why I stayed for so long in the relationship was because I was so terrified of anyone finding out and actually he knew that and he really played upon that and that was part of the kind of control that he had over me was like we would he would get in the car and go and we'd smoke weed at like two o'clock I wouldn't he would smoke weed at two o'clock in the morning and I would just sit there just like patiently waiting like being like oh my god when can I go home when can I go to bed like I'm not into drugs I never have been and I used to find that side of things was just so bizarre that you would want to go out at that time in the

morning to smoke weed and then that would then lead to him kicking off about something and being like I'm gonna drop you home and it's like the middle of the night and we would be having this screaming argument and he knew that that like I wouldn't go home because I couldn't face having to go home and tell my mum that like that had happened so it was almost that like that humiliation and then at the very end of our our relationship so I after I tried to end it um he kind of pulled the final straw which was to show up at my school so that was in front of all of my friends all of my teachers my entire kind of like world that I existed in and decided to that that was the place that he was going to truly truly

humiliate me worse than ever before and that was where the assault took place. So like I was with my school friends, like, can you believe that someone would have the capacity to do that? Um, so I guess you're right. Like it's that, it's that, um, it's that humiliation. It's like making you feel the lowest that you've ever felt in your entire life. And like now I look back and I think, of course he would do that because he was so insecure and unhappy in himself that to make himself feel better, of course he needed to belittle someone to the lowest that they've ever been because that gave him the power and that sense of authority. But like at the time, I almost couldn't get my head around what I'd done to deserve it, especially at the end. I was like, what have I done? Like, what is so awful that I can have done

that I deserve to be treated like this? And I'm sure you had the same. I think, yeah, and I think throughout as well, like you said about the crying thing, I always felt sorry for him and I always really thought that he was, it took me so long to understand what had happened. So like, I always thought, no, he was,

I thought, first of all, I was completely convinced for ages that he was right. He really hated one of my best friends to the point where I would almost like not see her. And it's because I didn't think she really liked him and I think he could tell, so he was trying to like get me away. And then after it happened, when he was right he really hated one of my best friends to the point where i would almost like not see her and it's because i didn't think she really liked him and i think he could tell so he was trying to like get me away and then after it happened when he was crying i've never seen him cry so much i was sat there apologizing to him having hit me and then after that i kept going back and i kept going back for ages and i couldn't like i just felt so sorry for him and he was like

promising me the world and it honestly was months i used to lie to my friends about i'm gonna go here and i go around his house they all knew but they were like i don't even know what we can do there's nothing what would you like because yours is slightly different to mine in that obviously like you say your friends sort of knew and your mom and dad like oh my mom knew after so my mom only found out when he hit me because it only there was only that one time he probably like but like what do you think your friends could have done in that situation to have like saved you so it's really interesting because like not that long ago, I have another friend who's kind of in a different situation. And what it was for me was they all got, which is fair enough and it makes complete sense because it's a natural thing to do.

But they were like, we hate him. You can't go near him. If you go to him, I won't speak to you. So all that did was make me scared to tell them about it. So I think what you've got to do is be really open minded and kind of be be like look um it doesn't matter what you're going through I completely understand and try and not basically I then they I alienated myself I wouldn't speak to them about it so I just like to start lying if they'd been like oh you're still seeing him are you oh okay well let us know when you're there and like tell us when you're coming back and then I would have felt like I

could trust them with the information but because I had like him on one side and them on the other it made me kind of feel like oh I can't tell them anything because they hate him and I in when you're in that controlled state where someone is literally like controlling you I felt like I had to pick him and this yeah you're right and and also I think you touched on it earlier was also saying the fact that they make you very very dependent on them yeah so i became dependent on him for just stability and like getting me out the house and all those kind of things and and sadly that dependence doesn't really go away so no matter how far he can push you away you always feel like you end up having to go back because you feel like the worst heartbreak it was so bad

so even when i knew i couldn't be with him and then it was one day actually funny enough like after them it was like months months later and he looked at me and I just saw this like anger and I literally got so scared I just ran out and I never spoke to him again and then I went and spoke to a counselor at the uni and all I said was like oh he'd like he hit me once and then this happened and I feel really sorry for him and she literally got a piece of paper she was like do any of these things relate to relationship and it was like signs of domestic abuse and every single thing on that piece of paper was my whole relationship and my sister had even said to me she's doctor and she's like this is classic domestic abuse and you want to go back oh they always go back like it's so

classic and I was like no no no and it took me probably until like the following year to actually come to terms like what happened and everyone knew about this point like lots of people in the uni it's quite small where I went and then like years later I hadn't really thought about it and he was telling him that i'd made it up and i never really wanted to speak about it then because i was like they'll think i'm lying and like i don't have any proof and i never reported him but like why do you think none of these cases get reported exactly like there are so many more glamorous not glamorous but you like you know someone gets mugged in the street people see it something happened like a robbery or whatever there's evidence but like when something something goes on behind closed doors, and also

when it is basically his word against yours, or, you know, it's so difficult. And that's why I'm slightly grateful in some ways, that the culmination of my experience happened very, very publicly, because finally, and although I couldn't see it then someone saw someone knew and someone was able to help like my my mum and actually we just did an interview for women's health about their strong mind for their strong mind campaign and it was like really emotional because we both sat and were interviewed about the experience and we haven't really spoken about it since like I went to court um went through a court case he got done uh like got found guilty um my dad I actually sat in a video link room so I wasn't in the courtroom but my dad sat in the courtroom which I found awful that he had to see him because

I didn't have to see him um but speaking to my mom about it like there were so many things that I've sort of you know when you your mind protects itself and your brain like blanks out like whole pieces of my life during that period that my brain just doesn't want me to remember but speaking to my mom about it and she was saying you know um she would literally sleep in my bed some nights because I would have these like involuntary panic attacks where I would literally just be like on it and I thought I was dying I remember one time being like to my mum take me to the hospital I am dying like oh my god and like and anyone that's experienced panic sacks knows how real it feels when you honestly feel like you are you cannot breathe I thought I was having a heart attack I thought I was dying

and my mum just having to be there and be like it's okay you're alive like you're fine and that fear constantly that I was ever going to see him anywhere I became really like agoraphobic and not wanting to go out and um it was just like it was and you don't realize I think you said the same thing you look back and you're like oh my god that really like knocked me for six for like a good two years of my life I was a completely different person and trauma plays out in loads of different ways and everyone's experience of it is different but certainly mine was everything shut down nothing I felt no emotion I felt nothing I just wanted to almost protect my brain so I just forgot everything and similar to you only in the last couple of years I started to have like flashbacks it was really weird I would literally be out doing

my thing and then suddenly I'd be like oh my god that happened to me and it would literally just come back into my mind and I would have like this flashback of what had happened and silly thing not the silly thing and they're not silly but like there was one time that i really remember where um i think i tried to break up with him and he sat he was he parked up his car by this railway bridge around where we live sat on the edge of this bridge was like if you break up with me i'm gonna kill myself and he was saying that he was gonna throw himself off this bridge and he was like sat on the edge of the bridge and i am was literally there like oh my god like and and that emotional turmoil that I just completely wiped out of my mind suddenly just came flooding back to me like

three years later. And I was like, oh my god. Those threats are some of the worst things. And I've had that said to me as well. And that is really scary. And I think stuff like that, people don't realise that that is abusive yeah it's so it's keeping you trapped i think there's so many levels of abuse that it's so nuanced that people don't really necessarily know that it's a thing well if you look at things like coercive control now and also like i think this is a sign of the times i guess but like i think people of our generation are perhaps a little bit more attuned to what an abusive relationship consists of whereas I listened to a radio 4 documentary recently about coercive control

where they spoke about um women that you know had been in relationships for like 50 60 years that their children were highlighting their dad's abusive behavior and saying actually I don't think that's right and exactly but they're you know they're so far deeper and also that it was a different time and relationships were different and that's the kind of excuses that they put on it but in my eyes abuse is abuse it doesn't matter whether you're 16 or you're 64 or whatever

it's not okay I do think that even if you look at vows I spoke about this on a YouTube video I did the other day it would be like to obey my husband I do think that years ago we have come leaps and bounds in terms of like feminism and equality but I do think that it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the relationships in like maybe 56 years ago or even more recently were actually built off a basis of control um with the man being in the power dynamic and that isn't me being like no no I think that's just a structure that would have existed

yeah and it's it's now that we're able to talk about these things and realize that especially because we have more mobility in terms of working and children and all those other things when you're not confined to the kitchen or whatever then suddenly those pressures become a lot more obvious and and i think a lot of the time you're absolutely right as women get more power more financial independence more independence in general that shift in the balance actually really has probably thrown off quite a lot of men yeah and suddenly what was the natural done thing that the man went out to work and did the work and you know those kind of like stereotypes that we have been brought up to believe or exist now aren't necessarily as you know the boundaries

are very blurred so i think for a lot of men that can then it's that needing to assert their authority and whether they do that in an emotional or a physical way i think that that's that's part of the cause yeah and talking about like gender roles so interestingly when um so like it was like i think it was two years later and i was in a new relationship and this guy I was going to move into a house I didn't actually uni because I actually changed my course because of everything that happened I hadn't gone to uni so I took a year out and swapped courses um and then so in my final year all my girls were leaving uni so I was going to move into a different house and I was moving in with a group of girls who I knew and one of them it turned out started going out with the guy that hurt me so I told her and I said I'm you can't go out this guy this is what happened blah blah blah she was like um she's

like kind of speaking to her about it and like basically didn't believe me so I was like I can't move into that house because I'd already told my mum that he didn't live there I hadn't seen him I'd never bumped into him luckily but I my mum used to drive around where I went to uni at night to see if he was there and I'd see if my house she was like so scared and so I was like I can't move in so I didn't move in and then it was like the new year that year I got messages from this girl being like you were right and I was like fuck because the one thing my mum said to me was if you don't report him now and this happens to another girl and she gets killed or something which do you know how much this is like my story I literally I was at uni and my phone rang

and it was like two years later, no, three years later maybe. It was in my like final year of uni. My phone rang, this girl, I picked up the phone, this girl was like, are you Alice? And I was like, yeah, who's this? And she was like, you don't know me,

but I'm dating my ex. And I know that he was abusive to you and he's doing the same to me and i'm pretty sure that she said she was pregnant with his baby and like there was just so much that was like wrong and actually the worst thing that i did then and i have horrific guilt about this was i just went i'm really sorry i can't help you because i couldn't like yeah you don't have the emotion and now i'm like i don't know who that girl is I don't know where she is and I I oh my god it makes me feel so upset I unfortunately wasn't in the right place to help her and now I have to live with that guilt of like I don't know what what came of that and it was the

most traumatic thing for me because at the time all I wanted to do was just protect myself because I couldn't get back involved I don't know and I don't know what I could have done I honestly don't but like I I wish at the time and I think that's why I feel so passionate about working with women's aid now is that like I visited women's aid I've sat in the call center that they have which is 24 hours and like some of the people that ring up there like it's so harrowing to hear people's stories um not that I heard like I didn't listen into specific calls but just some of the stories that the women that work in the call center were telling me about you know like I I am just so um

sad that I didn't know about that then. Yeah. And that I didn't feel confident enough to be like, I can't help you, but you can speak to X, Y, or Z. Do you know what I mean? And also, we've had different levels, I guess. Yours probably sounds like it was more intense. But I remember at the time thinking, well, he only hit me once.

Or like, so it was one instance. I came back from a night out and he literally, I was actually a bit drunk. I'd been out and he just smacked my head against a banister. He punched me in the face. Like, if he'd smacked me a different way when I was in hospital, like, out and he literally, I was actually a bit drunk. I'd been out and he just smacked my head against a banister. He punched me in the face. Like if he'd smacked me a different way when I was in hospital, like you could have literally smacked your head. But I remember thinking, oh, but it's only once.

That's not domestic abuse. Like this isn't, this isn't what other people go through. But also you're doing exactly the same that I did. So I think the problem is that we're like, even now I'm saying this, I'm like, I bet if he ever listens, which he would never would. But if someone listened, they'd be like, oh, she's made this up. And it's like, I remember thinking that I couldn't tell I'm like I bet if he ever listens which he would never would but if someone listened they'll be like oh she's made this up and it's like I remember thinking that I couldn't tell anyone or like telling this girl and I just felt like helpless but if I'd reported him at the time which I wasn't in a position to do because I was trying to protect him he probably would have gone

to prison because of his previous convictions and this is why this argument and the me too thing and coming out in this Brett Kavanaugh thing it's so hard. Most people don't speak about things straight away. Because, but why, like, why do we live in a world where women aren't believed? Yeah. Because we're still so far behind where we should be. You know, like, you're exactly the same as me. I almost justified his behaviours.

Yeah. He didn't actually, like, at one point, he didn't actually physically hit me. He fucking, sorry to swear, he got my arm and bit my arm i had a chunk in the back of my arm where i had a mouth mark and bruising for like three weeks i had to wear long sleeve tops in the summer so that my mum wouldn't see like and i was like but it's not hitting me and domestic abuse is about some punching someone in the face yeah and we we

like justify their behavior and it is always because like even though i had a physical mark on my body that shows a bite mark and honestly like i i just think to myself now how stupid i could have literally just lifted up my seat and been like oh my god mom like this has happened yeah but i just thought no one's gonna believe me and also how would i prove it but also you're usually, when you're in that position, it's like you've been, I know that I'm saying this as if these people are sociopaths

and I don't mean that because I think that everyone is human and I do think it's conditioning and there'll be a reason why. I don't think that each individual that commits domestic abuse is necessarily like individually culpable for it. I think it's a conditioning

and it's a miseducation or whatever. But normally... FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one feeling. Winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

Daily Jackpots. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11pm every day. 19 plus and physically located in ontario gambling problem call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca select games only guarantee void of platform or game outages occur guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m eastern restrictions apply see full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com please play responsibly by the time i got there as i was saying like when he hit me i was so obsessed with it and all of my self-worth was dependent on his opinion of me.

So him hitting me, I kind of felt like I probably deserved it. Or, like, if he said something, he would say stuff like, she looks amazing, why don't you look like that? And then I'd feel so upset about that all day. And even if my girlfriend said, like, you look really nice, it wouldn't matter because he said something badly. So it's so hard to explain that, when something really bad happens it's not about the hitting whatever it's the fact that for months and months and months you've basically been like brainwashed and i think that's the part of domestic abuse that people don't speak about enough it's the actual emotional turmoil that you go through well it just breaks you down to your lowest point

that like you almost expect the worst yeah you expect like just for it to kind of like yeah to be unfortunately um like here is this is kind of like what what how low how much lower can i go yeah that's like the lowest of the low but i think you're right and i think you've raised a really interesting point about like are they and like it's something that i have toyed with in my head for so long like are people born evil like do they have this in them and the fact that both of our partners have re-offended does that show that like that is just within them that they are that kind of person yeah and like I don't know I don't know the answer to that and I think that's a whole nother debate of like nature versus nurture but what I do know is that and I said this in in my interview with women's aid is that like on paper I was a private school

I had a loving family I had um you know everything I was studied really hard I was a really good student I was house captain of my house he came from a very nice family lovely parents really nice sister there was nothing yeah on paper that traditionally and i know that sounds awful because you can never tell but that people would say that would lead to a domestic abuse an abusive relationship so is it something within them is it something that some people have inside them that that not knowing how to deal with anger and frustration emotion is that something that that they need help with of course yeah but like are they born with it well it's so interesting because when i when i then saw him again he was like crying about it i sat with him and he then admitted to me that he'd actually hit his ex

girlfriend and his mom knew and that the ex-girlfriend had driven to the house the mom was like i can't speak to you because i rung mom she said i don't want to speak to you and that really upset me because i remember thinking i'm going to protect him i almost didn't can't speak to you because I rung mum. She was like, I don't want to speak to you. And that really upset me because I remember thinking I'm going to protect him. I almost didn't want to speak to my mum because I thought my mum was going to get him in trouble. That's how like warped my brain was. I was exactly the same. And it's so weird because I think that obviously everyone fears, like his mum's probably fearing for her son. Thinking like he's already got a criminal record for getting into fights. Had I said something, he probably might have gone to prison or something would have happened.

So she's protecting him. But for as long as we normalize the behaviors and whether that could be your mom your dad anyone I think we have to really I say it about like rape culture and all these different things but you can't ever excuse a behavior and kind of accept it expect it to go away and I think with I think that rape culture I that abuse, I think all of this usually boils down to toxic masculinity, which makes often men, because they often are, I know that women can be abusive as well, but I think it comes... They start to speak themselves. Yeah.

And I think it comes from a place of where they feel like a lot of the time that they need to be this heroine in a woman's life, or they need to be this man that is doing everything. And actually the pressures to be masculine are just as surmountable as the pressures to be feminine but they become a lot more dangerous and a lot more toxic and I think some of the times that actually I think these men probably are a product of a society that champions you know like hegemonic masculinity which is being really sporty and manly and testosterone and having a good girl on your arm and and I think that it comes from I think it's a bit of nature I think they I think I used to think he had anger issues and I was like why don't you speak to um

civil what's it called like civilians aid or whatever um salvation army no no what is it called I don't know civil help no I think I'm making it up I can't remember there's something you can ring it's like a helpline for like people. And I was like, you're going to get, will you get like anger management? And he was like, yeah. So I think, I think you have to have tendencies to be able to get angry. But then it's also like coupled with like conditioning from society. But also I think it bringing it back to like how you or I might have avoided the situations that we were in.

I think it comes down to firstly education yeah I think we just need to understand that like it's okay to like I wish that one of my friends had turned around to me and said do you know what Alice I actually I don't think it's okay that he won't let you come and see us or that you won't do that but my friends did that and I just I just was like well I want to see him so it didn't work like it's interesting because i think by the time they were saying that they were like no that's not normal so i'd come home that he would do that thing where he'd be like let's go out for dinner honestly make me get dressed up and i walk all the way to his house in heels and it would be like 10 minute walk i know it's not far but obviously in heels you're like thinking your head you're going out and then i'd get there and then he'd

be like oh i'm too tired i don't want to go out and it'd be so embarrassing and I'd have to walk back home and I'd lock myself in my room and cry in the girl's blood. No, no, no, this is okay. But that weirdly, that humiliation kept me feeling like, because my self-worth was so dependent on what he did to me. So that made me almost like addicted. I can't explain it. It was the weirdest thing.

It was almost like I was obsessed. No, no, no. I completely, I completely get it. And my girl, yeah, it didn't help. And I had a friend who was in a relationship which I thought was quite toxic. thing it was almost like i was obsessed no no i completely i completely get it and my god yeah it didn't help and i had a friend who was in a relationship which i thought was quite toxic so i my thing was i actually kind of kept him quite i pretended that i really liked him i was quite nice to him he then also when they did eventually break up he wanted to talk to me about stuff because he couldn't didn't realize i was actually kind of trying to manipulate and manipulate basically

yeah because that's the thing it's such a manipulative situation i think i think fundamentally i don't know if you can always avoid it no and i don't and i think you're right like i i say that with like very blue sky thinking that we might be able to have avoided our situations i don't know whether we would have done and i'm a really strong willed person as well that was the thing i remember thinking out of everyone how did this happen to me when I came out of it I was like I'm the most opinionated And the most like At all my friends you would probably pin me the last one

To be put in a situation where someone was like Treating me like that I sit here like you and I I think we have similar qualities And like both of us are very like headstrong Very like And now so like self assured And like know my

self-worth. And I guess I'm speaking for you, but both in really happy relationships. And I think the positive thing, I guess, is that we have, I guess, both come out the other side and found strength and courage and, um, shown that there's life after abuse as well. So that's my one thing that I'm like, I'd never say like to go through bad things, that's my one thing that i'm like i'd never say like going through bad things good but one thing i have is that the funny thing was after that that's how i started my instagram that's how i got into fitness and that's how i've ended up doing this podcast and everything and a little bit in the back of my head i'm like that's my fuck you to him because it's like it was that was probably one of the worst things i've ever been through

but out of that became all the good things so it's not to say that like that he made me do it but it's to be like instead of me getting my revenge or like doing something bad I just became better but obviously it'd be ideal if it hadn't happened but you can definitely it definitely taught me to be stronger and I definitely think that maybe actually part of the reason why I was able to get into that was I think I didn't know myself well enough I was too young and I was quite insecure and that's when you are vulnerable to someone that's going to make you feel like you're the world so the best thing I think in any circumstance when you're entering a relationship is try to know yourself fundamentally first but it's hard and you've got to make mistakes and and also like I think you were a little bit older than I was but like don't it sounds it sounds easy but like don't ever be um like rush into like I was just desperate

to have a boyfriend so I was settled for whatever came my way and unfortunately that was a really bad experience and you know I think now I look back and I think god why don't I just enjoy my time with my friends and being young and like I missed out on look back and I think god why didn't I just enjoy my time with my friends and being young and like I missed out on a lot because I was just isolated for an entire year like I lost a lot of friends because of it and I unfortunately missed out on so many experiences um and I just think yeah I just want I wanted to grow up before before my years yeah I just wanted to grow up before my years. I just wanted to have that. And unfortunately, it kind of backfired. But I think, like, my biggest thing now is just awareness and getting people to talk

and making sure that people understand what constitutes abuse. Because I think a lot of people, like my perception of abusive relationships, was mainly the physical. It was like like if he hits you that is abuse otherwise it's not and like people suffer the most horrific emotional abuse oh completely um that can be you know just as just as painful and just as distressing as the physical stuff for real like my i remember my sister had a boyfriend that would cheat on her but she didn't know and he always used to call her a psycho and i remember i used to believe him and she'd be like i honestly think something's going on for years he'd be like no no no and then it

all came out that all that time like he had been cheating on her and she wasn't a psycho she didn't make up you know when you know something yeah yeah i hope you guys know that that is abuse like that's called gaslighting it's when you make someone feel like they're being paranoid for behavior that you're actually doing and i see that a lot i've seen that not so much now but when we were younger i remember that being like it's been on tv it's always recently and i think you're so right and like how has that only just become a thing that we have a name for it now and suddenly it's like just because one one person did it on telly suddenly it's like oh yeah now we'll talk about it because it's kind of it's been on tv but like that's been going on for years why is it now that we only care about it like

great but also like way too late and i hate to gender things but especially as a woman there is language that is only used for women which is like psycho and bitch and all those words no one ever really calls a guy a psycho not very frequently And it's language often used to make you feel like you're being Over the top or dramatic Because we as women are just told we're emotionally unstable All the time And that we're hysterical and all the stuff And it's absolute bullshit

You only have to look at the trial that's going on at the moment In America I mean she's literally being painted to be some like Emotionally unstable woman. And I watched some of it while I was away. I haven't watched all of it, so I can't speak as an expert. But, like, I just found it appalling. It's the fact that in, like, rape trials, I was talking about this actually earlier with my friend who used to be a lawyer.

She was like, it's the fact that they can use your, like, sexual history or any of that against you as if it's remotely relevant. The question is always down to what did this woman do to deserve this action rather than why are men out there acting like this and it's always put on how to prevent yourself from getting raped or how to prevent yourself from getting hit rather than let's stop men raping hitting and abusing that's so true it's never ever that argument and that is because we live in a patriarchy fundamentally everything everything i do i did a blog post yesterday about diet culture and the end of it Matt was like I don't think you can blame it all on the patriarchy and I was like does it come across like that he's like a little bit but the thing is is that like that's your experience that's your experience in in this

world and your experience is just as valid as the next person like i feel it probably just as much as you and i think the the the worst thing we can do is to tell a woman that her experience isn't valid yeah if you feel as though you're living in a society where you are still dominated by a sense of patriarchy like that's valid yeah you feel that that's real no one can tell you that that's different and I think um that's something that we just need to to sort of deal with in our heads is that like it's okay to feel like that and I think you know if there's one thing that I love social media for it's for challenging my beliefs you know reading things like that you've written um and you write so well and you've written stuff where I've been like oh my god yes like yeah

you basically like said what I've been feeling or something that's been in my head or you've helped me to understand something that I couldn't quite necessarily get my head around um there are some people that are so so good at articulating um the world we live in now and and commenting on things that I've I always love like that for example the Hilo podcast I always liken it to like I I feel like I'm sitting in a group of my best girlfriends and they're all like really intelligent yeah I'm just a bystander and I could just sit back and listen and be like oh yeah I actually do think that but like the way that they talk um gives me power to be like oh okay like, now I can have these thoughts and feelings

and feel like I can challenge my own beliefs. And we were speaking earlier about how people write nasty things on our Instagram posts. And I think living in a world where constructive criticism is praised and we can be cool with having challenging ideas and challenging our own perceptions without having to be nasty about it that's that's what I'm all for I think what's

really interesting actually listening to that does just make me think that I think in my relationship the funny thing was I felt so a lot of it was down to like feeling so reduced to being very unimportant and only really useful for like the way that I looked or the way that I made the other person feel and what I think I've realized only in the last few years is the coolest thing or the thing that I really love like to do is like read and learn and be intelligent but that wasn't really cool anymore like before when we were younger women weren't seen to be like that and now you listen to podcasts like the high low and the guilty feminist and things that people write online and female activists and I'm getting really big sense of like power coming from women and it's not about how they look or what they're wearing and even

though that comes into it that's just like another layer of what they're doing just like the top of the of the pile and I think what's really cool now is that we as women do have a voice and actually we're saying like no I'm more than that and I think that's where like it's basically we're taking back power now and obviously like in in society I think a little bit the dynamic is if you think about the way that women are oppressed or the way that women of color or people of color are oppressed that is a slightly abusive act you know I mean that marginalization and that oppression so I think if we start to take power back and we get our voice and we say that you know we're more than this don't this any make sense then hopefully we'll be able to like rebalance the scale and kind of get rid of i don't know that makes any sense it does no no i can see

where we're going with it i can totally see where you're going with it and i think um you're absolutely right but i just i think basically fundamentally women are having more of a voice yeah and social media I think is 100% driving that and I think that's a really empowering thing and I think I'm not right in saying I'm not going to say it because it's not a true fact I think but social media is one of the only industries where women are earning a significantly more amount of money than men and isn't that an interesting fact and isn't it interesting that suddenly um we have this platform where we've been given a voice and we can say whatever we want to be who we want and suddenly that is driving change and that's all we needed we just needed a vehicle to carry our oppression and our ideas and give us something that we are allowed

to then have a voice on because mainstream media doesn't want to hear it and um mainstream yeah like kind of industries don't aren't really interested yet or they weren't so kind of go go off that's so interesting because even in the fitness industry you can see that on social media women do so much better like massively more successful than men which is really interesting like you said that that is so true so yeah I think I think basically the the point should be that you shouldn't be scared to be who you are and also shouldn't be scared to speak up or if you feel like something's not quite right don't be worried to question it and there are people that you can speak to and I think a lot of it is that especially if you're in a relationship that's slightly toxic is you start to question yourself and maybe think like oh maybe maybe I did this to them or maybe it's because I actually

wasn't that good or maybe I should have washed the dishes or shut the car door quieter whatever the stupid thing is that they're blaming for their action but actually if you've got a bit of a niggle of doubt there's no harm in trying to speak to someone or you know go to see a counsellor or yeah I think there's there's a number of things and I actually got a message from someone really recently um whose friend was just coming out of a very abusive relationship and she basically mentioned said what can I do to help and I said well there are a few fundamental things that you need to make sure that you do the first is that make sure they're safe if you're in an abusive relationship unfortunately and i felt this they know where you live they know

where you go like they know what school you're at for example with me they knew what school he knew what school i was at so make sure you're somewhere where you're 100 safe if um if they're then safe make sure that you get them to just talk and even if it's like even if it's just like even saying a little thing like oh oh yeah like like he might have done this, like just get them to try and open up. And it's difficult. And you and I both spoken about how we didn't want to tell anyone. And I think that is a really, really hard point where you're sort of starting to realize that things aren't right, but you're not quite brave enough to tell anyone yet.

And I think we both experienced that. But if you can try and get it out of them then then just get them to like open the floodgates and hopefully more will come out but also direct them to to women's aid I know that I keep banging on about it but I just think they're such an amazing charity who do such incredible things they get such little funding they are such lovely people half the women that have worked there have been there for like 25 years because they just feel so devoted to helping women um a lot of the people that they um that they deal with have kids so then it's a really difficult situation because there's children involved loads of refuge centers are being shut down now because there's just no funding so then yeah where do those people go well

that's the thing when i was at shelter um a lot of actually the people that were facing housing crisis were people that had fled from domestic abuse relationships and ended up living in absolutely tiny little hostels with their children isn't that just the most awful thing that one and because because this is the other thing with the control if it goes on for long enough they might control your bank accounts and your money and your finance they might not let you work domestic abuse is more than just like Alice was saying like someone being punched in an episode of EastEnders like there is it can dominate your entire life and it can be a lot more sinister and actually scarier than you know and actually impossible to yeah yeah if

your finances and your kids and your everything is wrapped up in someone like the thought of even having like being able to leave that with like there was a woman who I think you had like six kids like how on earth can she leave? And without women's aid, she honestly would have never got out. They found her. I mean, God bless them. Like they literally,

I think there was a woman said she was on the phone for like three days straight to try and find her somewhere. And they did. But like that, they shouldn't be that hard. And this is why we fundamentally need to fight for like equality and liberation and why so it's amazing that we're even able to have this conversation here right now

to be honest because if you took away 30 years you probably wouldn't have been able to so we do need to see that we are making strides forwards and it is incredible yeah but there are still so many spaces where it isn't really that safe for women and we're still probably even only a small portion of society so yeah I think it's definitely things are looking up and the more that we fight for our liberation and the more that we're not embarrassed to speak on things and realize that you know because I think a lot of the time we're scared to talk about things because as women we're supposed to look a certain way which is like quiet and feminine and not be angry because that's the trope isn't it like the angry

woman's so unattractive but you know it doesn't really matter if you're attractive like don't worry let's not make that the main focus do you know what i mean no i completely agree and and um i just wanted to finish um i just want to say i when i announced my partnership with women's aid i i um created the hashtag with them that once is too much yeah and i think that's something that i really want to bring in people's minds is that i think often like you or i both did the same thing where we kind of tried to justify their behaviors and oh it was only once um but no matter how big or small you feel like your situation is if it happened once even if you're not sure it's too much yeah and that your situation is just as valid and worthy of help than anyone else's and then like even when you sat here you were like oh yeah but your situation

wasn't as you know it sounds like it was a little bit more intense but like that doesn't mean anything like it was real to you and it felt very real and it felt very valid to you at the time and it scarred you for like as you've said like a long time and so we need to stop making comparisons between oh my abusive relationship was worse because he actually hit me and you know there's no there's no comparison available there it's simply that if it happens once it's too much yeah and as a result you are totally worthy of help and love and um a route out of there i basically i think that's so true and actually it's really sad because as you're saying that i was just thinking you're

so right like i think the reason we think that is because when we see cases in the papers or when we hear about stories about lawyers or when we hear someone pushing back on it it just it no wonder women feel silenced because it's like well there's no point saying anything because one no one's going to believe me two they're going to be like well it's not as bad as this thing that happened i mean there's just so look at oscar oscar historius's case like how look at cristiano ronaldo yeah two rape cases in new york that were dropped because there was insufficient evidence oh i wonder why like i know i know and it's always going to be the hardest thing but if we all have a voice together it's just so important i just want to like because it makes me so angry but can you

imagine how terrifying it must be to go to the police and testify against someone who is like a multi-million pound hero and idol in so many people's eyes can you imagine the confidence that that would have taken for that woman to go and do that and to stand up and say actually as much as everyone thinks this guy is a total hero he raped me and to be told that your case is not going to be seen because of insufficient evidence. Like it makes me, I get really emotional, but it makes me so angry. It's so, it's so. And that poor woman, like. No, it's awful.

But I do think it's good because every single day new things are cropping up. And even if they're getting pushed away and people aren't dealing with them and loads of cases have been overturned as if they didn't happen, which I just don't believe because the stats of people who lie about rape, it's like 0.4 percent or something stupid but i do think that there is more of a narrative around it and the more we speak about it and if we all speak about it together there is safety in numbers so if if one of us stands up and is like actually this guy's a bit emotionally abusive to us someone might be like okay then but if 400 women are standing there going i will not stand for this and there will be consequences and you can't act like that that might make a difference so we've got to all support

each other and obviously there will be men who are on our side too but for the most part us women like you have to just you have to not be scared to you know stand up for what you believe in and and believe that also your as you say your experience is your experience. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. Amazing. Wow, thank you so much. We've talked so much. I know. Thank you so much for coming and talking about it. No, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Where can everyone find you? I am on Instagram at Alice Living with a weird E. On Twitter the same and Facebook and yeah. It was really upsetting because I literally thought you were Alice Living for so long. I think. And then someone said Alice Living and it was someone that I knew knew so I knew they were right and I was like oh no no I actually like I yeah it's an annoying e I don't know where my name is from I think it's Vikings it's great though well it kind of fits the bill loads of people thought

I think people think that you've just added living yeah because of like you're living well and I'm like no it's my actual surname it's my actual name yeah but yeah thank you so much for having me thank you thanks so much for listening guys and also if any of this was triggering or upsetting as alice said you can contact women's aid and there i'll maybe put some links below for websites you can visit yeah amazing thanks so much for listening see you soon bye Fanduel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

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