Adulting - #30 What Is A White Saviour? with @nowhitesaviours

Episode Date: March 24, 2019

Disclaimer - this podcast was recorded last year over skype, so the sound quality is not as good as previous episodes. So sorry about this but I hope it doesn't ruin your listening experience. I spoke to Bruce and Kelsey, from @nowhitesaviours, about their work in activism, what 'white savioursm' actually is, structural racism and a lot more! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi guys, welcome to Adulting. This is the podcast where I try to figure out all the things that we're supposed to know as grown-ups but apparently don't know. And one of the biggest parts of growing up is realising your privilege. I came across an amazing account on Instagram called KnowWhiteSaviors and it really opened up my eyes to deeper, further understanding of the nuances towards white privilege racism and white saviorism which is something we're going to be talking about today so i am joined by bruce

hi and i'm also joined by kelsey so these guys do you want to say a little bit about yourselves introduce your background etc sure bruce you want to go oh kelsey you go first ladies first go ahead so um i am a social worker by degree i got my just finished my master's. Prior to that, had been living in East Africa for about four years altogether. I lived in Uganda, in Jinja specifically. Yeah, just that, that's basically my background. Social worker, worked in East Africa in child welfare. Thought for a while that I was above the savior complex.

Thought that, you know, because we had Ugandan leadership in our organization, because we didn't take a front, you know, front and center role in serving the needs of the clients that came through our program, I thought, okay, like, I'm evolved, I'm conscious, I, you know, woke, so to say. But in coming back to the US and in doing my master's and in following accounts, like Layla and Rachel Cargill, and just really digging much deeper into my privilege, and into racism and white supremacy, realized like, there's so much that like, I didn't address and that I, you know, that even in the moments when I was living there that I thought I knew and I was, I still had so wrong. Um, and so I think, yeah, I think

that's, um, that was the motivation. I actually was the one who started the account initially, but it sat for no white savior sat for quite a few a few weeks, kind of dormant because I didn't want to be a white person running that account without the voices of East Africans specifically, because that was my context and that's what I knew. So the other three women who were, the three women running it alongside of me that are OK with their names and identities being known, they are all women that I've known through living there. So Priscilla was actually my lawyer. Really? Yeah, she was my lawyer when we needed a lawyer.

We were running into some issues. She knew about what our organization in Jinja was doing. She actually volunteered to help us like at a very low cost um so right off the bat knew she was someone who you know that you come across your people and you're like you're like you're about the things that i like care about and so um priscilla and i have been connected ever since then um and then olivia actually was one of the social workers at the project that I co-founded in Uganda. And we've always been friends since we worked together.

But I think even since starting this account, there's been some unpacking there where I have said, Olivia, I'm sure there are ways that I, that my power dynamic was not addressed even in like our working relationship and our friendship. And I want you to feel like you can talk through those things with me, but that's a whole nother, that could be a whole nother podcast. And then Sharon is someone I admire a great deal. She runs a whole project herself in Jinja. She actually grew up in an orphanage herself in Jinja, Uganda. So she's been both the recipient of the white savior complex.

Like she has seen growing up having white people come in and out of the orphanage she grew up in and having white folks come in and out of this town and form relationships and then leave and then the way that they portray her and other Ugandans so I think we all the team of the women we it's interesting because we all know each other very well um so uh then we have another team member um I'll call her G that's the first letter of her name, but she just, because she's still working in development, she does not wish to be identified. Um, just like Bruce is going by an alias. So that's a good segue. Bruce is also new to us. Um, he is our only guy on the team. Um, but he is like, he's a feminist. He might not tell you that, but I think might be part of his intro, but he is like, so he's aware, um,

as a male too. So that's really awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for introing me. And part of the reason why I'm going about it this way is because the team, I love how the team has established itself and you typically because of the systems of patriarchy you don't see as many women-led organizations or movements yeah because of patriarchy so i don't want my voice because typically that's what will happen is oh because a male person is speaking then things will be legitimized for whatever reason.

So I'm trying to walk that balance. And that's why, because these wonderful women have started this organization, this movement, I am fully supporting this movement and lending my, whatever expertise I have, but I want to acknowledge and it continued to be an organization led by women. Right. And I think that's important. And that's what I know Chelsea will resist that, you know, but I believe, I think that for me, I feel we don't have enough of that anyway. So, you know, so that's my first, my little thing there.

So my history is very brief. I was born and raised in Kenya and went to the U.S. for college. And I've lived in the U.S. in general for about over 20 years. But I've also been blessed to travel all over Europe and parts of Southeast Asia and Australia and New Zealand. And so I've been able to see different experiences and experience different cultures and see the commonalities we have as human beings and also the various disparities that exist and so my own coming into this space was experiencing prejudice as an african as a kenyan and as a black person in america so this intersex intersectionality within all those experiences and then seeing the disparities

that other people experience you know whether it's the tlptqia community you know uh the indigenous communities you know black folks you know latinos native americans you know you know next race you know so all you know being able to see all of that um uh woke me if you want to say that, use that term. And this is where it brought me to where I am today. And I've been involved in architecture and sustainability. That's where my career level is. But in terms of how I came into No White Saviors is they reached out to me, I guess, because of my crazy commentary sometimes on

Instagram and we bonded Kelsey and I bonded and and I loved their page it was just like it was speaking to a lot of the things that I had in my mind yeah and so this is where we are now well one question before we go anywhere. What do you think about white people using the term woke? I actually used it in a post the other day. And I know that it comes from like African-American vernacular English. Is that how you say it? A-A-G-E.

So how do you feel about white people? Do you think that's an appropriation of the term if we use it to mean? Because there's no real other word that we have in the english language that means like socially conscious aware in the same way yeah uh so for me the way i've understood woke to be is especially referencing whether it's white folk or anything it's like it's someone who is aware of the disparities that exist and acknowledges them and is an ally to Black and Indigenous people of color in terms of challenging white supremacy

and systems of systemic racism. So that's where, from my understanding, where the word woke is. If this person is woke, they are aware. Yeah. And so it's a term that can be used appropriately, but then obviously because it's always fashionable to take a term and then use it with everything, every sense,

just like when the fist pounding that came from sports, from black folk, and now everyone you see CEOs doing it the same. So it's going towards appropriation. It's leading towards everyone using it for everything. It's being watered down. Yeah. So I think again, it's context. It's if you're using it in the proper context, I think it's fine. But if it's become almost a playful or like a jokey way of like, Oh yeah. So, you you know like it's being i think

it's having that awareness of where the heritage of the word is from or like exactly yeah exactly exactly and um and yes it it does veer towards inappropriateness in terms of how it's used you know if it's not if it's because it's a serious, I think it's a serious term. Yeah. It is a serious, it means something deep and serious. And so, you know, when it becomes very playful to an extreme extent and very arbitrary, then as you stated, you know, it can, it can become inappropriate to use. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I can think. Yeah. So how did you, yeah. How did you come about? Did did you like were you just on Instagram and then you found the page how so I follow a really cool like artist activist called Florence Given who's really engaged and she shares loads of really cool pages so I'm always like following her stuff and then I came across No White Saviors and I just got engrossed and like obsessed with everything that you're writing and I was like that's really helpful and I wanted to reply to everyone then I was like oh

this isn't my place because like I I've just it's only like in the last few years that I've really started to understand like the point of privilege that I have and then I've kind of got really into it um but to hear different perspectives like the more you get into it you're like shit you just can't stop seeing it everywhere could you could you just be like could you define what a white savior is because I'm not even joking it hadn't really I think I subconsciously was aware of the idea but when I went on the page I was like oh my god obviously this is so ridiculous that we go over there take a few pictures and come back and we're like we've done such a good deed of course it's not about the people you're helping it's it's ultimately it's just helping the volunteer.

But how do you define like what a white savior is? And what's the feeling in these countries that are being helped? Like how are we as like westernized countries like looking in from completely the wrong angle? Yeah. Kelsey, do you want to go first? Sure.

Yeah. So I think much like much like institutionalized racism or institution like institutionalized white supremacy. Right. We're not looking at it as much like the one on one, the like individual. Like if I want to like capture what that means that's just a symptom yeah the larger problem is the narrative and the rhetoric that has been used to talk about countries in the southern hemisphere and for for what we're talking about specifically in sub-saharan Africa so you know that looks like things like you know know, colonization, drawing borders around it, like dividing tribes and people groups and putting tribes and people groups that did not

maybe get along or wouldn't have been put together otherwise. And then us, you know, in, in 2018, criticizing, um, crit, criticizing African, um um countries for still having you know conflicts right when so so that's that systemic nature of oh like why can't you just get your act together yeah and you know that's again and that's only one part um so when i i guess when i look at the white savior complex i think all of the things it is, it is built upon all of these preconceived notions and lies that we have, that Africa is less resourceful, less knowledgeable, less able, less capable. Um, and that we, because we are Western and therefore we are superior um so it is it is

it's white supremacy yeah and I know that is a very strong term for a lot of people um that's why um I don't know do you follow Layla yeah I do but I don't that closely but and also Rachel Kog I've only just recently started following her but she's amazing yeah both of them I think if we can link your followers um and the listeners to those two accounts I would say both um Layla's in the UK and Rachel's here in the US in New York um I actually work with Rachel closely I help moderate a group for um called The Start and um so I've worked with Rachel closely one-on-one and she she and Layla both um and there's other, so many other powerful black women doing important work.

But I think Layla specifically, I've seen identify white supremacy in a way that is accessible, but not gentle. And I think that's really, really important that for too long when we talk about white supremacy, it's been, well, I'm not a Nazi. supremacy it's been well i'm not a nazi yeah i'm not a i'm not a fascist i'm not all these things and we that's where we're talking because we're talking about a larger system just right like i'm not going to come and say like all white saviors you're all racist and terrible well we're all contributing to racism we're adding to that problem so i got this

backlash a lot when i talk about um white privilege and racism and i'm like you might not be a functioning active racist who's going around saying things but by by proxy of being white you profit off of structures that destabilize black and ethnic minority groups because in order for you to keep your privilege, you have to be standing on someone. So whether or not you're actively acting in a racist manner, you are also a product of what you're not doing. So unless you're working to destabilise these structures

that keep these racist structures working, then you are a little bit racist. And I know people get so offended, because I don't mean you personally, individually, I just mean we. And also, you don't have to be white either this is the other thing like people can be just like a woman could be a misogynist a person of color can be racist it's structures and it just depends where you're born how you profit off them yeah I think everyone takes it much too individually it's not not about the individual. I mean, it is, but fundamentally, it's about really unpicking the structures that were there already.

Exactly. Exactly. That's really well said. Yeah. And just piggybacking on what Kelsey was saying, you know, and I mispronounced his name. Is it Rudyard or Rudyard Kipling? Yeah. I say Rudyard, but i don't know actually yeah so he wrote this poem you know uh the white the white man's burden

in 1899 and was a reference i think to the american filipino war well basically it really was taking up that mantle of you know for what you know white man's burden to take care of others who are savages and that was what was tied on in terms of colonialism so that mentality has continued uh path well we say post-colonialism, but it's continued beyond that to this point today. So you go from colonizing all these southern hemisphere nations, Africa, Southeast Asia, and so forth, to civilize, and I put that in quotes, to civilize the savagesages which is a stupid stupid idea that

doesn't even exist and then um post-colonial when all these countries african countries are only about on average 50 to 60 years old in terms of independence so they're beginning the process of just being independent and growing and learning about themselves, especially when they've been thrown together forcibly by these colonial powers, which were European. So that's happening. And then you have all these multinational institutions, corporations, these trade agreements between the Western world or Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere countries that are imbalanced. White privilege has existed for a long time since the first explorers went out to explore the americas and you know the portuguese and the spanish and then it spread out in terms into colonialism and to what we have today with institutions uh set up that create that benefit um um explicit and implicit in terms of, you know, for white folks. And again, it's not, like you said, you know, you're born into the system. You might not be aware of it until it's brought, you know,

until you study and see where those disparities are. Just like, you know, it's a patriarchy. The world is a patriarchy. Men benefit way more than women do i acknowledge that as a man i know i have had so many benefits i know i don't have to fear about walking out at night and fear about being assaulted or any of those things that women have to experience i don't i you know there's so many things that I have privilege as a man that women don't. And I can't pretend and be like, no, it's there.

And so my responsibility is to recognize my privilege and to be an ally and to break the disparities that exist as a man towards women and other genders. Yeah. I think you're able to see that though, because as a man of color, you face your own fight. Yes. So I think that's why even as a woman as well, I can see racism differently because I face sexism. It's the same with you.

You face racism and then so you can understand sexism. I think the problem is, and also exactly what you're saying. No one's educated. In the UK, we're not taught about like black slave history in the UK you're nuts not on our school syllabus

there's an amazing book you've probably read it Why I'm No Longer Speaking to White People About Race by Renny O'Dellodge it's an amazing have you guys read it? it's such a good book

so that's like that's the first kind of time that anything properly published that's gone really wide has actually talked about British black slave history like before that you got to talk about stuff that's completely irrelevant like addictions and tudors which just doesn't add into your understanding of who you are in terms of us how society works that's recent history that we really should be talked about and it's just missing yeah um yeah and i mean i uh my younger brother lives in london and so

and um you know he's you know he's married uh and has a two-year-old and his wife is english and white so um i'm sure you, we've never really talked about it, but I'm sure they have their experiences in terms of being an interracial couple and having a child that, you know, is mixed. And for him being Black, I'm sure, you know, if I did ask him about that which i will eventually you know what those experiences are and i've you know i've been to london you know um

and i like you're right the uk and a lot of you know whether it's france you know italy and you know with populations with african or immigrant populations that are sizable enough, I think those conversations only come up when it's immigration issues or when it's to do with loss of jobs or economically. Yes. That's when you have those conversations or those things spring up but in terms of dealing with the social you know cultural systemic issues i think the u.s is ahead in that sense um and i'm not saying it you know like oh wow no it's just like it's us you know it's it's you know black folk here in in america have have pushed and and fought and clawed to be heard and continue to do so under the craziest circumstances i think it's a broader

conversation in america i think it's just less spoken about in the UK. Yeah. But I think it's emboldening. I think now, I think, look at your podcast, this podcast here, you're having this conversation. I think people, especially since we're a more connected world, I think these conversations are beginning to happen, whether it's talking about this particular subject of, you know, white privilege and systemic racism whether it's talking about gender disparities the me too campaign times up all these things are now coming to the forefront and and and and hopefully this is this is this is just the beginning in terms of we have to face this painful we have to face this painful, we have to have these painful conversations and painful emotions come out

and we have to face them. You can't soft-pedal any of these conversations. No. Yeah. So from that, Kaz, could you explain to me, one, what drove you to set up No White Saviors, and two, to people who maybe still aren't grappling what the actual concept or what it is and why it can be so damaging to these communities cultures and

countries when someone goes over and just tries to like kind of put their help in a vertical onto people so there's a lot of this is something that I didn't realize. I don't, I started to realize it's as pervasive as I thought it might be. Um, when I started coming back and having conversations with other people who had traveled and spent time elsewhere and meeting people just from different countries like Nigeria, Ghana, um, Cameroon, I have I've had some women in my program from West Africa in university. So I think what drove me to start the account was all of the stuff I saw myself and so many others in my town of Jinji, Uganda, complicit in. And it went, not only did it go a lot of times unchallenged it was like it was like like weirdly like like amplified and supported and encouraged like it wasn't even just that like oh

this like stuff is crazy as and we posted this on the account but there's a woman who is was homeschooled in Virginia um a lot of it, it's not only, but a lot of it is very rooted in like Christianity. And I grew up in the evangelical church, in a predominantly white evangelical church. So I feel like I can also speak to that is that there's this essence of like, God calls you and you don't actually have to know what you're doing. You just go and do it. And God's going to like, make it happen. Like's like some like weird, like, if you just go do it, all things are going to fall into place. And God's going to just like, make it work. Instead of realizing like, how effed up that is. Yeah. And realizing how problematic that is. People use God or religion or Jesus to excuse their, uh, irresponsibility. I don't, I guess.

And so again, I want to stress that I know it's not just a problem of evangelicals. Um, but in the U S evangelical church, I think especially, but I've met evangelicals from australia from the uk from all over from germany and that are in uganda and in other countries so it's yeah i think again it's it's so many things wrapped up in one but that saviorism is we can go and fix problems that we actually don't know how to fix that no one would ever let us fix or try to fix in our own country because we don't have the degree we don't have the training we don't have we wouldn't be able to get the funding because no one would give us a grant to do it here but we go overseas and do whatever the hell we want yeah because we think that we can get away with it and we have largely for a long time um

and i think that is that was the i watch i know kids who have died at the hands of this. It's not just some selfies or some, you know, problematic content on a Facebook status. This is, I've watched children die. Like the white, when I was, I'm sorry, I brought up this white woman from Virginia in the U.S., comes from an evangelical family, was homes homeschooled and she started a project to address malnutrition she started with no medical training doing blood transfusions and doing um very serious like physician level medical care no medical care no medical license children when i tell you there was a there were multiple people from the u.s and uganda

who reported what she was doing there's like there's like tens to like at least like between like probably like 20 to 100 kids who have died because of her and she listen she was protected by the missionaries in our town the white missionaries from the u.s said we were attacking her so we got her organization was shut down by the ministry of health because she wasn't registered to be a medical facility or wasn't registered properly and she opened back up she still she now opened up another project in my yuge district in uganda and is now still there she should be facing criminal charges right just to like contextualize this in the UK I genuinely think unless you're like first aid registered you can't even like really put someone

in the recovery position so how are you then from going from that to going abroad to doing it you're so right it's like no one would let you do this and we really do it's it's so selfish in of itself anyway because I did it when I was 18. I went out to Ecuador. I spoke Spanish and I taught Spanish to indigenous children. And I remember thinking this was so great and it's amazing, but you're right. I waltzed into those kids' lives for like two months. They probably got really attached to me because they're really young.

I absolutely loved them. And then I just left and went back home. And like, what happens when I go? Like that's no stability for the child. Why do I think that I'm better than, why't we have taught those key to our women and men Spanish to teach their own children or the truck that's that's where I think it's so obvious now when you say it but when when it's done so much it just seems like it makes sense I mean we have the whole comic relief where the whole idea of that is it's to support children in Africa.

And it's like white celebrities go out and, you know, it's it's in it's institutionalized. It's in our actual almost government. Like, do you know what I mean? It's more than I've flown British Airways the most out of anyone. Yeah. And I I would literally like cringe at the advertisements and the pamphlets that they put in for comic relief. I'm like and actually one of my friends in Kampala that runs a very it's actually a very good charity. It's all mostly Ugandan led and it promotes, you know, kids being adopted domestically by Ugandan families. It's great. Yeah. But they were supported by comic relief. And I'm like, it's so exploitative the way that they you know just it with the

language that was used the graphics that are being used you're like on your you know you're flying from Heathrow to Entebbe and you're like this is like you are just solidifying everything everyone already thought you know that was it's hard though because I know that saying this like obviously my listeners are mostly UK based I know that will hit enough and I know people like but it's so good and I I the problem is the difficulty is that people see things like but it's charity charity does good that's what that's doing but fundamentally whilst it might seem like a great idea to go and to help someone less like it's like exactly what you're saying if someone was dying in the middle of the road I wouldn't try and administer CPR or give them a blood transfusion i would ring an

ambulance and it's like that on a very long extension instead of ringing an ambulance or locating people who know what they're doing within that area we're going oh i'll just get on a plane and do it myself like i think that's the best way to kind of make it more I know okay okay sorry can I clarify on the comment relief because I don't think they're complete trash yeah I think I won't I don't want to ever throw away there's most organizations I won't just say don't like throw it away don't do anything I think we all would agree um not I mean I don't want to speak for everyone, but we've talked a lot as a team about this. Um, and it's, it's not that we're saying don't do it at all. Um, we're saying do it better. Yeah. You know, for comic relief, do you like, let's maybe one day it'll be us sitting at a,

at a boardroom table with them in London and saying, this is how we can improve your PR. Because your PR, you can't, you're helping people, but at the same time, you're hurting. Yeah. Because you're hurting the whole conversation. You're continuing to solidify the language, the images, and the harmful just narrative overall of what has been said about these communities. And that's what we're trying to challenge where you know i there is a way to talk about the need that exists and and not paint people as weak and vulnerable and you know um pitiful there's ways to show that the strength

yeah and as as you say like it's not it's not that comic relief is bad it's that that is that is born out of the society that is still built off of these like especially as the UK people don't realize we raped pillaged and stole from every other country in the world we're like one of the worst people for invading everyone and taking everything and then all of a sudden we're in our high horse like do you want us to help you and I think that's just that little kind of bit of little massive bit of hypocrisy needs to be addressed so that you can see how actually this is such recent history that people just need a bit more awareness. I think Bruce,

what were you going to? Yeah. Yeah. Those are really good points. And for me looking at, yeah, historically, and I don't know about comic relief.

I haven't, you know, I haven't heard about them, but I think the whole idea of charity should change i think the word charity itself should be consigned to the basement or basin of whatever it's it's it is a depowering term i think the way organized if if you want to call it relief work, whatever you want to call it, I think it needs to change fundamentally, just like how any organizations, businesses are changing how they do business. Relief organizations need to change as well. It's a co-creative aspect. And that's the thing.

If you want, and that's really understanding why this exists and why you're going into this situation. And I think individually and organizationally, those questions need to be asked. And for myself, I wrote, I posted in one of the No White Saviors Instagram, before I even joined Kelsey and the team like for me if I wanted to go and volunteer what are some of the things what would I look at myself and ask myself why I want to do them I'll just read quickly yeah do it

so number one is take a step back and do some self reflection on your motives like really ask yourself why are you doing this. What is, what is, where is this coming from? And why do you want to do this? And the second, you know, second point is it's co-creation.

It's not versus charity. And that begins at home. Look at your local community, your town and your city. There are deep issues of poverty and inequality in most towns and cities everywhere around the world. Start your advocacy work there and refine and learn from it. Basically, be a community activist. So, in other words, if you really want to be helpful, look around you.

We tend to want to look outside of ourselves so much. And that narrative, like you spoke in the UK, you know, like the images of African children in all these organizations when they're advertised calling for donations. And they post these images of, you know, dying babies and starving African children. And then you discover 50 or more percent of what is donated goes to administrative costs. So that's the other aspect that, you know. And then you discover 50 or more percent of what is donated goes to administrative costs. So that's the other aspect that, you know. And then the third thing I wanted to emphasize is to anyone who wants to do this has to educate themselves on the struggles of Black and Indigenous people of color. And what they face in your community that you are in right now. And regionally and nationally as well.

Learn about immigration and immigrant rights. Take workshops on all these issues, as well as take workshops on cultural sensitivity. And then another thing is to get out of your comfort zone in terms of learning about white privilege. Really ask yourself these questions. Read books and literature by Black and Indigenous people of color. Find out who these authors are, as well as African, Central American, South American, Caribbean, Polynesian, Southeast Asian authors.

So learn, start reading, because a lot of the books that we read are very, again, white-centric in that sense. So you have to teach yourself, you know, get involved in the communities, the immigrant communities around. Make some friends, get involved in, you know, come and see and be part, you know, witness the culture and just witness and observe and learn, you know. Talk to your family and white friends about white privilege yeah um educate yourself about colonialism colonialism post-colonial policies brinkmanship the world bank and imf austerity policies towards the southern hemisphere multinational corporations um that abuse resources and the people of southern and

exploit the people of the southern hemisphere as well yeah um and the extreme um imbalance in trade agreements between you know newly independent african and after basically african countries and and the northern hemisphereisphere as well. Learn those things. Like, those are things you have to learn at first before you, before I think you can think about, hey, I want to go to so-and-so country and, you know, and volunteer. Yeah. And then, yeah, I think that that's you know and and the idea

again is a symbiotic process you know so and there's local organizations in all these countries that are already doing great work yeah so rather than you going unless you have a particular skill set a really particular skill set that is lacking or there's a dearth of that skill set, and you feel through your training and you've done your orientation, you've done the research and so forth, that you can be of benefit

to go and share that skill set, then that's fine. You can do that. But make sure you're thinking of it as a core-creative process you know and also and then refrain from using any type of social media yeah documentation do you have to respect the privacy I think that's the people you're co-creating yeah I think that's the part that really kind of struck home for me is when you see it when I see it on maybe someone's

page I'm not all that size but when you see it on your page and you see all these images of just people standing there with these communities and you think have those communities consented to be on this person's instagram page do i even know that this how do i know that those families aren't in a position that actually need help and they happen to just be like it's very exploitative and it is and it's also the other the other part of thinking like we're so accustomed to how we live in our westernized nature and the way that our world works who are we to look in and say that actually those communities might be perfectly happy they might be perfectly content and privileged within their own right and it's that misinterpretation it's that kind of like oh look at these people

when actually you have no idea what the standard of living is you have no idea how happy they are and you can't you can't just kind of put that there and be like look at me this is so great and I honestly didn't see it until you see it on your page and it's so blindingly obvious how damaging that narrative is that like we go in for two weeks look we saved everyone we you didn't you know I mean I would I would love to I mean I've lived in the U.S. for a while. I've traveled all over. I could go to one of the poorest communities i could go to yeah you know hampshire and the in in england and you know go to the you know and do the same thing i could go anywhere and you can imagine me doing something like that as a black person and then having the you know the furor the hue and cry the recriminations and all of that stuff so for any person that's doing this imagine me coming to your

community to your family to your neighborhood to your house and say oh there's a more middle class oh you're suffering okay so yeah you don't you know i could take pictures and everything oh your parents are fighting let me take pictures you know like it's it's it's i can go into you're basically putting on blast in a reality show style situation yeah people's lives and so um and the excuse is oh we want to show what the struggle is no this you don't need to do that in that way that's that's um poverty porn or whatever yeah and also because like i don't know what those communities live like normally i don't know what their housing situation is like i don't know what's deemed to be like a good family a bad family a good standard of living etc so when you're putting up these pictures it's almost completely redundant

and irrelevant because obviously me living in London is a completely different lifestyle to someone living in Africa so even the comparison in the first place is so extrapolated from our norm it doesn't really make sense do you know what I mean like we don't know what they're seeing or how their lives are and you can't just be taking pictures of people and it is I think the thing is it does come from a good intention but it comes from a place where people need to be made to feel uncomfortable. And I know it can feel affronting and it can feel a bit like, but I'm trying to help. I didn't do this to be cool.

I didn't do this to be mean. But the point is you're getting your kicks by thinking you're helping someone when there's like, as you say, there's so many issues towards the way that our media represents immigration. When it's foreign people coming into the country, our media, you can count it on the TV.

There might be like 20 stories in an hour, whether it's good or bad. We're told that foreign bodies coming into the country art media you can count it on the tv there might be like 20 stories in an hour whether it's good or bad we're told that foreign bodies coming into the uk is bad but then the minute you want to do some help you decide that you're going to go somewhere really far afield and help over there and it's like how can you have two completely opposing views towards people of the world this is what's quite confusing. It's like, sorry, you can't. No, no, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. And I wanted to just bring one very interesting point and talking about Christian missionaries and I'll speak specifically to the U S. Um, so, uh, we have our president Trump as, as our president. Um. And he has a huge support from the evangelical right, the Christian right. And they were very much opposed to President Obama as the president, right?

And President Obama, his heritage is half Kenyan, half African. So it's interesting that they were so opposed to how he was as a president, and yet you want to send missionaries to Africa. But it's not even, and that's actually not even, it makes sense because they're like, we want you to be in a position of charity, of wanting our help. But when you come into power, you are threatening to that very dynamic. Completely. That's really sinister. That's how I see it. We can interact with you as long as you aren't in the same level

of privilege that we are. So it's a very um it's fandu casino daily jackpots guaranteed to hit by 11 p.m with your chance at the number one feeling winning which beats even the 27th best feeling saying i do who wants this last parachute i do daily jackpots a chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca.

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bible three times i know it very well and so i and if we talk about christian aspects i can go another tangent and get people really angry but my point is it's very interesting how how the way we choose to interact, and I'm saying we, but I'm saying the way we choose to interact in the Western world with the Southern hemisphere is typically we want it to be a power imbalance.

Yes. I think it's really sinister, but it's exactly what you're saying and renny eddie lodge says it in her book as well she's like basically white supremacists are scared of black people taking over because it's that exact concept of i say it so many times but privilege no equality to the privilege feels like oppression when they see a um a black man in color that a man of color in power people feel oppressed by it white people feel like that's my space but they're happy to go over and help in a country where they're like oh this is where you belong i'm not saying these my beliefs i'm saying that's how dark

those undertones are the problem is people aren't aware of it that's the issue they don't see that they're like i'm being helpful i'm gonna go help in africa yeah and at the same time, hold really racist beliefs when they're in their own country. And it's because it's that very small level of, but I'm doing a charitable deed that makes them believe that those racist undertones aren't there. It's so, it's so nuanced and it's so interweaved into day-to-day life. And because everything is whitewashed,

like 95% of journalists are white. Things that get reported are from a white point of view. So it's very easy. Yes. The media is owned by exactly. Yeah. So that's where the problem is. Absolutely. I think there's so many points to touch on there, but there is, there's just, it's because I think we don't talk about it. We dance around. You're exactly right. We dance around what it actually is because we think, well, people are doing some good, right? But

one of the things we keep saying and we want to keep maintaining is that good intentions are not good enough, right? Just because you mean well, just like being white and in a friendship with a woman of color or just a person of color in general i can mean well but i can commit a ton of microaggressions oh for sure whether it's getting my hair braided whether it's appropriating language whether it's touching her hair it whether it's saying like calling like talking down about the neighborhood she grew up in yeah there's so many different layers to the way like like that's the whole notion of like, because you have a black partner, because you have a black friend, or because you have a

biracial child, it does not mean you're not racist. In fact, some of the people I've met that are the most racist have children and have partnered with people of color. Yeah. And they use their privilege and they use that in a very real way in that dynamic. And so, and I've been part of that problem i've been i've been a part of that problem um and so i think yeah i think that that's we don't it's a level that's that level of racism where we can't we can't because we can't see you as equal because we can't see whether it's um um, black Americans, whether it's, um, people in East Africa, whether it's people in Cambodia or South America, um, we, to see you as truly and

fully equal, there's a lot of things that would not be happening in development work, right? Because there's, there's a pay gap as wide as 900 900 in the development sector where me as a white person with my master's degree could go work for the un or work for um uh save the children or work for chronic relief for any of these organizations and i could get paid up to 900 more than someone just as if not more qualified in their country of origin like how insane is that i should be paid less if anything because i'm not from the country and i don't know what to call it other than colonialism yeah um i don't so yeah i think that um yeah i think that the powers at play is i think what you're saying about charity at home is really interesting because i think part of the problem is until you start addressing the inequalities and the

discrepancies within your own like country whether that be looking at the gender pay gap between men and women or looking at microaggressions like you talk about within racism I think when you start to see the nuances in your own country then you might have a better understanding to think about why it wouldn't be appropriate for you to go and volunteer in a certain place or why it wouldn't be appropriate for you to do something but if you're completely unaware if you're completely blinded by your privilege in your own country it's going to be very difficult for you to understand why this is a negative and it is a really uncomfortable process being faced with the fact that some of the choices you've made in your life will have oppressed other people and some of the language you've used will have been very degrading and rude.

And even when I was younger, I talked to lots of my friends who are women of color or mixed race. And we, they would even say, because they were brought up in a very white setting, they were like, we didn't even realize that we were being racist to ourselves and to other women of color.

Cause we were just so conditioned to not know. And actually, yeah. And, and addressing it like retrospectively is kind of weird. So I have a mixed race friend. She was like, I didn't even really realize that I was black or that I was mixed.

And that's kind of, that's really problematic in itself. Cause she just didn't know until she kind of went out into the world. And then she was like, what, why don't I, why am I not the same? You know,

it's like, like you say, your, your brother's raising like a mixed child and I think it's such a big deal that we talk about especially in Britain I think there's a massive like prudish nature towards talking about anything but you need to talk about it we need to talk about the fact that racism is very real it does exist that you see these tweets on um Twitter where white people are like oh my god racism doesn't exist in this area in america because there's a like a multicultural march have you seen this stuff and it's like people genuinely believe that it's not there but racism doesn't have to be someone using a word that's

really rude racism can be as you say like asking someone why are you having that for breakfast that's weird it's like it's not weird it's that's their culture or why are you wearing that or why is your hair like this those questions are microaggressions because you're trying to put yourself as the person of privilege as the setting standard as the norm and everyone else is the other but that's not and actually touching on that all these liberal me my my experience here in the u.s where you have the liberal cities like port, Oregon, it's a facade. Really? Yes, it is a facade.

Even within the white liberal movement, there's microaggressions and have racist undertones that they're not even aware of sometimes. Or if they are are they refuse to acknowledge them and so it's it's deeply rooted so those those ideas that idea of even within a multi multicultural city they are still um segregated within that you know so you'll go whether it's boston portland seattle you know, just like if you go to Leeds, you know, Birmingham, you know, London, you know, Manchester, you'll see it. You might be multicultural, but you're in your segregated spaces. it's a facade in general that there's this whole you know um you know uh kumbaya in terms you know you know like oh you know yeah there is there is multiculturalism i think young people are showing that more than people our generation you know i think i think the future, I think the promise or the hope is in what we see with young people.

Because they not only see who they are, but they're also challenging how we place, how we identify them. For sure. In terms of how they view themselves, even gender-wise and so forth. But that's, yeah, so there's a facade in that. And so it's interesting. Those images go out there and people think yes yeah you see people marching and everything but they have to do the work i can call myself a feminist but i have to continually do the work yes to unlearn all the male uh chauvinist patriarchal aspects that i have

that has been taught to me since birth right so i could claim to be an ally to women and other genders of the glbtqia community but i could i can still continue to do and say things whether i'm aware or not that can be aggressive and prejudicial yeah so you it's recognizing that aspect. And a lot of white liberals that claim to be allies of the movement of breaking the system of racism and so forth tend to not see through that self-reflection. Yeah.

And that might be harsh for me to say this yeah but it is it is what I've witnessed um and it's acknowledging that and doing the work is what needs to that's the other you know yeah I completely agree I think the biggest fight I genuinely think it's over the language I think people are so scared to be thought of as racist to be seen as racist that they can't even sit there and acknowledge like actually maybe that was a racist thought or maybe that was I think that being true to yourself and just seeing it is the best step forward but I think people find it so affronting that they actually can't they're just like no everything's fine because once you once you start to dismantle your understanding of the world you see the cracks in everything I started to realize

how many racist thoughts not like outwardly racist but just things I would think presumptions I would have about a person of color or presumptions I would have against a certain race that isn't me being like oh my god I hate that person it's just I've been conditioned to believe a racist idea and I think being able to have that awareness and go I'm going to change that because once you can see it you can change it but I think if you can't see it you can't change it and most people aren't willing or aren't ready to be like actually I have played a part in propping up a structure that is that is wholly unfair yep I think um that's so necessary to talk about I think one of the biggest things that jumps out in that

conversation um yeah so humility we just say that humility is i think if i could study that if i could write a thesis and do a phd on that on what is what what is missing for people who are not willing to see their role whether again whether it's misogyny whether it's white supremacy and racism whether it's the white savior complex you know more specifically in the southern hemisphere, I think humility is what separates, right? Because we're, it's not, we're, we talk about ignorance, right? I think that's, that's a cop-out because we, in this day and age, everyone, we have access to this information. Um, and I think there is, there is truth. There are some levels of ignorance there there but I think even more so it's the level of humility right is is to say hey I have messed up and I I think that one of the

biggest ways we can help encourage a change in that whether you know not just for our generation but for generations above and below us um is talking about it openly like I think one of the worst things I can do or anyone anyone in this work can do is to talk about it as if we're removed from the process. Yeah, exactly. So we need to be able to, before anything else, be able to say, no, no, no, I'm not going to point the finger outward until I look at myself. Yeah. And not, you know, look at myself and now I'm good. You know, I'm doing, no, ongoing.

Yeah. As I'm, as I'm challenging these other organizations, in my mind, I'm, as I'm coming back other organizations in my mind, I'm, as I'm coming back to Uganda in a few weeks, what, what is that? And I'm going, I'm going to be visiting a friend's project in Tanzania. What does it look like? I've never been to Tanzania. What does that, what does that look like to enter a new community and enter, you know, meeting with another organization, um, of folks? Am I coming in to learn? Am I coming in as a student or am I coming in to impose what I think I know and what I think I'm an expert on? And so that's just kind of a little, you know,

added part of this ongoing conversation is that I never want it to be portrayed that I think I've figured it all out. I know that I can perpetuate problems now still, but I want to be held accountable and I want to be challenged. And I think that are even a person of color coming from a privileged context that you can perpetuate really harmful narratives you can perpetuate really harmful things and by way of the white savior complex so approach it with humility and a desire to to minimize yeah that potential harm i can i can go even further than that and say start start at home you know i think you you know before you even think about going anywhere else look at your community look at look from within first like i think i would even say there should be a moratorium on people just going you know you have to look look at unless there's a special relationship that you glean from you know i think right now i think you have to look at home you

have to look at your community where you can work your spaces first. Because there's an interesting tendency for a lot of those that do charity work, going to Africa and so forth, and ignore the disparities that exist in their own country. And ignore the racial, gender, and completely ignore, like not pay attention to, and are complicit to the continuation of those disparities. And so, yes, you might want to, yes, I want to go to Vanuatu and volunteer. Yes, you can have that wish. But again, what are you know it's better i think the better thing is to go and visit and contribute to the economy as a tourist yeah and and appreciate the culture from that perspective before you decide to want to you know take a backpack and four thousand dollars or whatever and and head out to uh whatever country you think that needs your help also i guess fundamentally if you if we

work in our own countries to dismantle these ideas of racism and to platform people of color people from different minority backgrounds um people with disability, people with different genders, all of these things, if we work to make those at the forefront, I think that is what's going to really help if other countries are in difficult situations or in conflict, lead by example. If we make it so that equality here is so steadfast and so credible and so real, I think that will give us a much better stead to be able to stand there and go, actually, you know, I can help here rather than not. Would you agree with that?

No, I agree. That's exactly what my, exactly that, exactly, exactly that, because that then gives you a really understanding of what it takes to be a community activist, to be, you know, someone who cares about humanity. And the other thing I was going to add on, another add-on to that is it should be an exchange system. If you want to go and volunteer in Uganda, then there should be someone from Uganda who comes and volunteers where you're from it should be so it's a cultural exchange yeah cultural understanding of of of of want you know so it's a cultural it's not a power play it's not a power play it's you both have value to add to each place exactly so this person comes to your community and lives with your family and learns about the culture and systems of your community and and volunteers somewhere as you

do the same yeah that's how it should be so it's not just a one-way traffic because what also continues to perpetuate is that young uh african kids or black kids or whatever seeing all these white um adults coming in and doing all this work it creates this um this you know you know this awe in them thinking oh wow you know and that's's, those are damaging images. So damaging. That's something I grew up with. Because in Kenya, you know, in terms of what we watched growing up, it was British and American movies, TV, you know, programs and so forth. And it was, you know, very obviously white-centric and even blonde, blue-eyed was the, you you know the number one thing that was

played out and so you see barbie dolls and all of that stuff so when you see those images that's why you have people trying to lighten their skin all over whether it's southeast asia africa you know um you know lightening their skins you know trying to make their hair straight and all of that stuff because of all these things that have been put and it also i guess it makes on the flip side like i bet a lot of people will be ignorant to the fact that africa isn't just a sea of people who have nothing there are people who are doctors lawyers have careers intelligent like it's only a small portion i think the narrative is so pushed out there that like people in africa are all starving and africa's fucking massive uh nairobi where i was born and raised

is now known as the silicon savannah because it is it is a tech hub there's over i think three or four billion dollars worth of business going on in terms of the tech industry uh they're so way ahead in terms of you know there's startups you, 200 or 300 startups every year, I think. And, you know, this whole money transfer aspect actually came from Kenya. We were doing this 10 years ago. There we go. There we go. Yeah.

Yeah. We were doing this. Yeah. We were doing this 10 years ago. So there's innovation going on all over Africa. There's so many brilliant kids, you know, people doing brilliant things the African way that incorporates the African way and also gleans from technology and systems from other areas. And so this image of Africa being helpless and needing assistance,

every place in the world needs assistance. I see it here. UK, I am so sure. You will struggle. Everyone struggles. The idea, like, ask any middle class person, are you happy with your financial situation do you feel secure in terms of how you're living do you think you you know do you are you working extra just to

make ends meet and it's a universal yes so it's it's it's um it's it's those are the things yeah i think it's so true and it's just it's it's that whole message about misinformation and platforming and and you're completely right it's about trying to keep a certain hierarchy in play and the problem with that is that it just it just self-perpetuates the more people go out to help in africa the more these young children are thinking oh why are they doing this and then the people on instagram think the whole of Africa, which is also, it's so redundant. Everyone's like Africa as if Africa is like one country that's like all the problems are just localized into like that big. And it's weird because you're even brought up on the idea that, oh, poor Africa. I don't know where that narrative started, who decided.

Well, we do. But I mean, it's just not taught. And that's yeah I mean I would you know what I would blame is uh in some ways it's the governments themselves that have you know uh that create this narrative in what they teach in schools and school curriculums and you know and when your person of privilege that goes to visit a different country you tend to be more and when i'm saying person of privilege i'm talking in terms of wealth yes necessarily talking so if you're you know generally a lot of people who visit are upper middle class to rich oh for sure so that

that in itself creates that you know huge disparity disparity and so and it's actually you see the same in the reverse like a lot of students or a lot of people who visit the uk from us from africa of people's privilege yeah you know do very well for themselves and so it's so you have this you know you're above you know like someone visiting africa you know has that mentality already and then is and they the funny thing is they'll skip this they'll skip all the they'll go straight to the poorest areas yes because they'll skip oh they'll skip Nairobi now I'm not gonna you know but I'm gonna take pictures of you know uh kids who are looking who are poor and you know it's very interesting. It's a very well played.

Isn't it, I guess? Yes. Can I say something to that? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, no, I'm done. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. So one of the things I wanted to say to that,

which is an excellent point, and I hope I am not repeating anything, is that you think about like, okay, are you familiar with what i mean confirmatory bias no i don't think so okay so confirmatory bias is the things that we store in our memory and our in our knowledge bank of certain things so right so let's use the example of all the mass shootings that happen in the u.s. mostly are by white men. Yes.

But we don't store that white men are terrorists. We don't store in our memory bank that when a white man is crossing the street in normal business attire, that I should be more terrified of him than a black man. Honestly, because who's more likely to commit a mass shooting where I'm going to be? So true. So conservatory biases, what do we store in our memory about that group of people, whether it is Muslim people? So we have tons of confirmatory bias issues with the Muslim population. We have tons of confirmatory bias when it comes to trans women. There's tons of confirmatory bias issues when it comes to africa and so you know we have

like there's a section of my city called kensington um where there's documentaries and things about it because it's it's so messed up on heroin the whole area is like people like kids that i i've worked as the juvenile justice social worker and kids that are from the community, like, um, black and Latinx children, like youth, 15, 16 years old, they refer to their own neighborhood as zombie land because there's been such an influx of opioid epidemic. And it's largely people not even from that neighborhood coming in, living in like 10 cities. Yeah. And so you look at that and i think devastating horrible they need help they

need all the charity in the world too right but when you think of america you don't think of kensington no when you think of you know what i mean so like there's poverty there's you know sadness there's brokenness in all parts of the world like that's a big theme of this conversation today but one of the most damaging things is that within confirm the conversation around confirmatory bias is that it's not what we're storing as the the overarching narrative yeah I think what's so damaging is and this could be a whole other podcast but it's when it's like um so it's a white man father accidentally shoots daughter or something or like father

accidentally something and then it then it'll be like if it's a black man it's like black man kills and it'll be he actually didn't but it's the headline it's the newspapers it's all of those things and i think we are becoming to use the word more woke i think that social media and i think right younger generations are being so like calling people off on this because the people's the people in power especially in the media tend to be older white middle-class men um who control it but the people taking in the media now the younger people aren't like they're like no this is bullshit but that's still such a small echelon of society that's using twitter that's talking about these problems and it's like this is the other issue like people who are

engaging with it if you are from a like a lower socioeconomic background like are you able to interact with information that's telling you that actually a lot of the stuff you're getting fed for free in the news isn't actually that true this is the other there's so many nuances to how we view the world you know like people who listen to my podcast most likely are going to be from quite a good socioeconomic background, probably will be quite educated, already have the access to these tools and are learning further. And it's, it's so it's once you see that, then you're like, God,

this is a whole massive world out there that we're just, I don't even know how you tap into it, you know? Yeah, no, it definitely is. I think that in activism, anti-racism, activism, all of that is, there's a lot of issue with, like, classism. Yeah. And accessibility. And that's one of the things I've really noticed is that, like, a lot of whether it's the, you know, especially,

I think whether it's, like, women uganda that are living in a slum or the village or it's women in philly living in public housing and working their hearts out to just make ends meet with their three children and like they they're where are their voices in feminism right when we talk about intersectional feminism or anti-racism where are their yes because really these systems that are oppressing are actually affecting them more than anyone else yeah and so so often the people need to be heard the most not that they're not voiceless like i think we brought this up they're not they have they have voice and they have very powerful things to say when given the opportunity but where where is their seat they don't have a platform that's the thing so this is my issue like the other thing looks over to age is the last thing kind of want to touch on just it's from a personal question

point of view so like i was saying to bruce that i interviewed two um women who are both lesbian refugees from cameroon who are trying to come over here and seek asylum but it's really hard to on the grounds of sexuality and my my kind of angle with things now is trying to platform people and give them a voice but how much of that has got white savior complex or how do we because the other the sad truth of a lot of things is is as a white woman i can platform shit that other people can't platform you know so i know that i can get to a place that a woman of color probably couldn't in certain industries. So how, how do I use that to help other people? So like give them a voice, but how do I do that without it turning into like, um, kind of like I'm doing good. Do you know what I

mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's always, um, that's always a learning process i think um in terms of where does you wanting to help them not turn into the savior complex aspects i think part of that would be to challenge the systems themselves so if you is have these conversations in places that where you see, if you work in an office that's all white, going into a meeting and say, why isn't there diversity? Why aren't we being diverse? Or why aren't we recruiting from a diverse population?

Those are the things you can do on the flip side, because it's one thing to be helpful to someone who is in need of help but then are you also confronting or challenging the systems that are causing that disparity so i think uh so that's what i'm saying so like if you yeah if you if it's an organization that you work in or you're you're you want to use to aid someone, look at the organization itself. Is it operating from a place of inclusivity? Yeah. You know, immigrant populations.

If I'm in a space where, like even this conversation we're having, I'm in spaces where it's majority white or whatever, or majority male, and it comes and we're having just a candid conversation, I will bring those conversations up. If someone says something off-kilter, I will confront them. Pull them up. You know, because we tend to, you know, it's fearful. It's scary not to.

I mean, it's scary too. And I mean, in the past, I was scared to. You know, I had all these thoughts and feelings about how I hated all this disparity that I was seeing, but I was trying to be the good black guy, the safe black man. I had to let go of those layers. I had to. Because all it does is you become complicit.

You become part of the system. That's the level of racism that people often are at, that they can't see it, because they're inherently good people. They don't want for anything bad to happen happen but it's that fear of being like oh my god because that even happened to me when I went on the no white saviors page I was like oh my god I've done this I didn't even know that and you have to be like shit I need to address this behavior and see it and that's like you I see it all the time I think it's that first step to being towards like you're never going to be. And like,

if you feel comfortable, it's probably because someone else is suffering. I think it's usually how it works. Exactly. This is, it's, it's the balance between always recognizing that there's, uh,

an imbalance and you can't be completely comfortable when that imbalance exists. And then at the same time, You can't be completely comfortable when that imbalance exists. And then at the same time, giving yourself space to regenerate and rejuvenate so that you can challenge those disparities. So you're never comfortable. Don't allow yourself to be comfortable, but also give yourself space to internalize and rejuvenate. Because sometimes if you're always just fighting then you will exhaust yourself yeah but you have to there's a balance you know you have to find that balance between taking time for yourself and rejuvenate but then when you go back and always recognize yeah if i'm comfortable someone else yeah how can i change and i think sometimes what happens is we get this massive feeling of guilt guilt's never useful i think that's

something we need to talk like don't feel guilty just do something so instead of feeling like i've realized all this stuff and now i feel really bad about it there's no point like ruminating and feeling bad just try and change it just because i think i just felt guilty for it and i thought that in of itself was helpful it's not you know so that's yes yes that's that's so important, um, I don't think guilt or shame, um, is productive beyond that initial. Yeah. Beyond initial, like, it's just going to like paralyze you. And I hear a lot of people talk about this and I can relate to an extent. Um, but there's so much work that needs to be done in challenging, like, like Bruce has so much work to do in challenging other men. Yeah. Like misogyny. Right. And the patriarchy,

like he has so much work to do in that. And you, you and I as white women have so much work to do in challenging fellow white women and white men. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the biggest challenge.

I think the first challenge is yourself for sure yeah not trying to live in the guilt and shame and realizing like that's kind of counterproductive but realizing that once you acknowledge it and are able to start educating yourself and understanding and asking for accountability that is where the real growth is going to happen um i think also looking at motivation i know bruce has talked about um just motivation and everything and i think bruce and i were talking about the quote from bruce do you have your phone out could you find that quote by joy spanda uh yes it's on the no white saviors timeline um so she i don't know if you saw the article we posted about when Madonna went to Malawi and was basically demanding that Joyce Banda pay her attention.

No, I haven't read it yet. Yeah, it's really good. Did you post it? Oh, yes. Okay, here it is. Okay. It says, kindness, as far as its ordinary meaning is concerned, is free and anonymous. If it can't be free and anonymous, it is not kindness.

It is something else. Blackmail is the closest it becomes. Yes. So basically, yes. So if it's not free and anonymous, and you want to project that kindness and it be known then what you're doing is coercion yeah what you're doing is you want something for the actions that you are doing yeah and so it changes completely from a self selfless act or self-act into a transaction not to go like too deep but the other problem with

this is it's because of the rise of social media and because innately i'm reading a really good book at the minute about how our desire to experience things has changed so much that we don't even want to experience them we want we experience sharing them so we don't even experience things anymore we experience how people respond to us sharing them online so the other problem like the other nuanced section is like some people might actually be in kind but it's so in our nature now to share stuff that it's almost like you can't get away from it yeah because i want to acknowledge her former president of malawi joyce banda kindness as far as it's as its ordinary meaning is concerned

is free and anonymous if it can't be free and anonymous it is not kindness it is something else blackmail is the closest it becomes yeah it's so true oh good and it's so neat i mean yeah i think that again i think we could do a whole episode on the influence of social media on and like social good, because I think there's actually someone who's doing research in the UK right now around the like. I think they're trying to focus on the good that social media does. And I think I really do think there can be a lot of good. It can be harnessed to do a lot of good, but it can also it can also obviously, like we're seeing, do a lot of good it can be harnessed to do a lot of good but it can also it can also obviously like we're seeing do a lot of harm and i don't think there's been as much conversation as there has been about the white savior complex i don't know if we really understand the gravity

of how much social media like blogs instagram twitter facebook how much those, those, uh, sites and platforms have really encouraged more of it and even more irresponsibility. Like, I think that maybe before, like, you know, 20, 30 years ago, there maybe were people that were more equipped or at least not as frequently seeing, you know, 18, 19 year olds going and starting NGOs and it's yeah I don't really have words I literally lose words when I think about the way that this has all been so normalized so I think we haven't really seen you know just to finish that thought we haven't seen or understood the gravity of what social media has really done for sure it's definitely amplified I mean with so many things I think it's it's such a um it's such a's definitely amplified. I mean, with so many things,

I think it's such a double-edged sword because I see so many merits, but so many pitfalls with it. It's just, as you say, I could literally talk about it all day. So to finish off like this conversation that we've been having, the main takeaway really isn't to be affronted

or feel like you're doing anything wrong or feel like this is an attack. I think what we need to do is shift our understanding of the way that we look at the world. And that starts with just trying to see who you are in a society and how the society profits off that. And follow accounts like No White Saviors, Rachel Cargill. Is it Cargill? Cargill? Cargill. Yeah, I think it's Cargill. Cargill, yeah.

And then I'm going to link some other, you guys below and then anyone else. But did you guys have anything that you think is a really good, like, takeaway message for someone who's been listening? Chelsea, go. If I could have another thing that I feel like I would really love people to walk away with is that if you wouldn't do it in your own country, please don't do it in another person's culture in another person's country. So if you wouldn't start that, if you wouldn't have been able to start that charity at 18 years old or start, you know, volunteering in that position at whatever age in your own country, in your own city, in your own context, then please don't do it abroad. Because what you're doing is you're saying that what you're saying is that people in another country and especially, you know, whether it's East Africa

or another region in the Southern Hemisphere, what you're saying is that people there deserve a lower standard than what you would provide in your own country. And that's not fair. That's not ethical. And it's just plain wrong. So really go into the mindset of when you're trying to assess if you volunteer abroad or work abroad would you be able to fill that role in your own country of origin yes that's such a good idea yeah love that bruce any parting words uh wow unpacked so much. I think do self-examination, ask yourself about your motivation for wanting to do this. If you are looking to volunteer and look within your community and the people around you and the immigrant community that's in your city, town, region, country, if you want to learn about other people and other cultures. And study about the white savior complex, patriarchy,

systemic racism. Those things are really important, you know, white privilege, those are things you have to look at before you do anything, you think about anything to do with co-creative work, development work, community development work, not charity, eliminate charity from your vocabulary as well. that's so good I'm gonna do that I love that no to be fair though I have to say that people my friends from the UK you guys use that word a lot more than we do yeah like everything related to like social good is like I don't think I've heard Americans ever use charity as much as I hear you guys yeah it's a very it's a very used word so that might be part of the the work right yeah challenging that word yeah I think so I definitely

think because I do find it degrading sometimes as I say it doesn't quite sit right because it should you know like it's not um because also when you say like oh you're just doing me charity it can be degrading when you're using it in like a colloquial sense with your friends so why it's not seen that i think i think it's uh in itself even colloquially or whatever it still is a depowering yeah that's what i mean yes yeah i think yeah i think it is you know um it's it's like a pity yeah exactly you're right it's a pity system you know i'm doing charity work yeah yeah you know you're so right language is literally so powerful sorry no i was just gonna say i feel like i've heard charity used by people in the uk as more of like a noun than an adjective or i mean than a action yeah then yeah then a verb

um like chair like the charity yes rather than the non-profit or the yeah we use charity as the word for non-profit so every organization that's helping is called a charity right so i feel like both of those could be addressed yeah for sure yes i don't have anything I'm good I would I would love to stay on the fall longer I know terrified the house might fall down thank you so much I know we've been talking for ages but it's been I've absolutely loved it I have too awesome but thank you so much thank you thank you so much thank you thank you bye thank. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. See you guys. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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