Adulting - #31 Food, Eating and Bodies with Jessica Fostekew

Episode Date: April 2, 2019

For the last episode in this season, I speak to the hilarious Jessica Fostekew, about her relationship with food, her body and lots more. Jess is one of my favourite comedians and also has her own podcast 'Hoovering' which is more about some of the topics covered in this episode - I highly recommend. I hope you enjoy and I will see you soon xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Well, gosh, well said. What, your name? You just said my surname right. Was it good? No one ever does that. Oh, thanks. Probably because I've practised doing my own name. Which is quite hard. Yeah, yeah.

So, Jessica is a comedian. She's also a fellow podcaster. Yeah. What other strings do you want to add to your book? You just told me loads of stuff you do, actually. You were talking about writing, producing. Yeah, I do talking about writing yeah producing oh i don't do any producing what did you organize someone's show oh i direct some directing that's yeah that's the one yes the same oh gosh don't you i do not produce oh i direct yes it's very similar i think it probably um it's just helping people with writing their ed shows sometimes. I do. That's fab. Which is that. And so I basically, I actually reached out to Jessica to come on Adulting.

And then she was like, let's do my podcast too. So I've been in your house. We've been podiamorous. Yeah, we have. I love that. And now we've kind of talked about everything in the world. And I've forgotten. We'll find some more things to talk about.

We've got some more things. So the main ethos for this podcast, Jessica's podcast, is all about your relationship with food, eating. Yeah. Do you want to explain a bit more what you do about it? Yeah, I mean, my only concern with saying that is, it's just about eating. Yes.

And my only concern to say it's about your relationship with food is because I think that sounds like it's more of an informed thing than it is. Oh, yeah. I'm a comedian and not a nutritionist or a therapist or anything like that. So it's just um it's all about I think there's enough things in the world about food um and I think lots of people are very confident about saying I mean almost everyone says I love food yeah but not many people say I love eating yeah I don't really care what it is I like the act and the feeling um and I really do

I really love eating as much as I love food I don't hate food I wouldn't just eat a shoe um but I do um I think there's room in the world for a little bit more honesty a little bit more joy to be taken yes out of this thing which we've made very emotionally complicated I say we've made it's been imposed on us in a million ways um but just remembering that eating is a social thing a fun thing a necessary thing uh a way of loving lots of incredibly positive and brilliant things and also i think eating something that everybody's got like interesting or funny or moving stories and opinions about yeah yeah that's why someone who's totally unqualified in any kind of in terms of how healthy things are or um mental health issues around eating is doing a podcast about

eating but that was when I first listened to it and you literally said that thing of um I don't just love food I love eating I've now tell everyone anyone I meet that there's this women's podcast and I love it because you say that because it's that's exactly how i feel and i've never had the words to say it because people say i love food and i'm like no i really love food and this person who told me they love food will like pick at a start i think you don't you don't love food they do love food they don't love eating and that's like i've never heard anyone put it like that yeah they've tasted it now yes weird yeah oh okay but as you say like everyone has this relationship with food which is much more complex because there's also like a massive shame attached to admitting that you might find food difficult

which is quite lovely because you talk about it really openly on the podcast that you're like it is a really complicated relationship and as you say it's that you've mentioned a few times as well the problem of if you have an issue with food you can't just stop eating yes because you literally have to eat yeah yeah if you become addicted not that you know i've got no idea in terms of food addiction or any of those things i don't know whether those are real things um even they might be um but i think that uh you know if you are if you uh have a problem with how much alcohol you drink or if you smoke or if you use a recreational drug to excess and you know you need to stop or it's harming you, as a rule, the advice is to stop. Yeah.

And you can't with eating. No. So it makes it, I i think a million times more complicated so it's this relationship also you know if you're in any bad relationship you walk away all the people who love you will say please stop drinking please leave that man who hurts you um i don't know why i made it a man could be anybody hurting anybody i mean probably because it usually is um but yeah right you can't do that with eating and so it's that relationship you have to stay in yeah which is i think what makes it special and horrific definitely and do you what's your how do you really how's your relationship with food changed

what was your motivation to did the podcast as you say it's about enjoying food but you must have got to a place where you were able to talk about it enough yeah without it being kind of so I had a really interesting thing where some years ago I uh so my in terms do you mean historically from childhood and stuff or just whenever um I um was a I've always been in a heavy body not a fat body um i mean i have had a fat body um i've never had a thin body i've had times where i've um disordered even very young from like 11 yeah 10 or 11 i probably about 8 9 i was in a fat body and about 10 or 11 i just stopped eating i probably started listening to horrible things and diet culture and stuff i would start sometimes making myself sick and i would

starve myself i remember long patches of just having an apple a day with my friends and i would kind of goad each other on to see how little we could eat and i passed out a few times um and that's probably the smallest body i ever got in. And everyone in my family got very worried. Sorry, there's a teenage boy shouting. His friend's in the road. I literally laugh as you start recording. Someone starts playing the drums in the bed. I'm trying to talk about my small and my fat body.

Anyway, yeah. And then even with that, though, I remember when I was 11 going on holiday with my mum and dad, who were 100% on the rocks at the time. It was just before they properly broke up. Or maybe they'd even broken up, but we decided to have a family holiday. We were on a Greek island and I just hadn't been eating. And I remember being coaxed back in I just have my one meal I just get a side salad at dinner time or a coleslaw or something while they had dinner and just eat that

and then I remember the day it broke I just had four ice creams and my dad was like do you want another one do you want another one and I was like yes yes yes yes and it just sort of stopped then and the mists cleared a bit but I always would flip in and out so then I spent I'd say from my teens until my late 20s in a very familiar cycle of um restricting and binging restricting and binging restricting and binging all the while um not really paying that much attention to myself occasionally paying attention to my body. My body would change very drastically. I would go up to, I don't know, I won't mention numbers.

I would go up to definitely being in a definitely a fat body. And I would go down never to being a thin body. But anyway, it would be very fluctuant i remember being very interested that when i got to university at 18 i was in catered halls and for the first time in my life i had a lot of routine kind of imposed on me yeah um and i would have breakfast and dinner at the same time every day and because i didn't have any money i would eat big big breakfast and dinner but i'd have the same thing the catered halls the food was horrid yeah so and I love every food but I would have like the breakfast is fine just you know some whatever loads of toast and some music like tons and fruit and everything and then at dinner

I'd end up having because the food was so rank um a jacket potato every single day for an academic year and I did I did and I was sorry and i was exercising a lot and stuff and it was some i was also heartbroken and in that year i lost a lot a lot a lot of weight and i hated how differently people spoke to me when i really noticed that i had a boy i'm gonna say boy was a boy we called him tory dave Oh, God. And eventually Fascist Dave. He had a union jack flag on his door. Oh, no. And he liked Margaret Thatcher.

And he... What uni were you at? London School of Economics. Okay. Difficult. Yeah. And he... I was in intercollegiate halls, but he was at LSE.

Of course he was. I bumped into him on the tube, actually, not long ago. Did you? Yeah. I pretended I hadn't seen him, but he said hello. Oh, God. I thought we weren't ever friends. He came up to me and said, I just want to say, I think the transformation of your body is incredible.

And I phoned my mum and told her she could be doing so much better. And I gave you as an example. And I thought, you disgusting piece of shit. And that was even at 18 that I was able to hear that. That's so interesting. That's quite disgusting. And I just saying i said something to him like i'm still the same person dave that's really rude that's really right i've got so many things i want to ask you about but with that that's so interesting because when i first did my whole transformation thing that i talked about with you and people listen probably know that i had a personal training

on lost weight loads of my guy friends who i still love to this day were like oh my god and then you look amazing and i loved it i didn't once think this is so oppressive I'm suddenly in a smaller body and men now find me more attractive because I'm more diminished or whatever you know I didn't find men finding me that more attractive and I think it's weird because I think I grew up in the countryside where this is amazing I still think I don't know whether it's still like this and maybe it's just what it was like in the 80s and 90s and 35 that people just didn't care as much about what you look like right you still had all the same horrible pressures of dieting and stuff but i had a most incredibly good looking boyfriend he was a geek but i when i was at my biggest i was never i was never short of male attention i genuinely

and so i think that's the reality of it in places where appearance isn't that important no but it was brilliant and then i got to london for union was like oh i think people have slightly different view on this here so it wasn't that so much that change of attention i think i would have been flattered by you know being feeling fancied more it was that he genuinely seemed to be implying i had succeeded in life in some way through having become smaller I don't think I necessarily was fancy how do I explain it so I still think I still had male attention as well but it was like when I got thin it was that it was that thing it was that thing of being like a well done you were right like this is where you should have always been because I was I never felt like no one fancied me before but when I lost weight it was like oh look she's here

now like you've done it and I wasn't aware now if someone said to me if I lost loads of weight and someone said you look really good that would irritate me yeah but I didn't have the insight then no so I think at 18 for you to know that is quite I remember just being yeah aware yeah maybe now I think after that though then I just sort of just naturally put a couple of those stone back on and then I've stayed around that in that body roughly you know give or take a pregnancy um ever since and I love moving my body love it I occasionally fall out of love with it briefly yeah I did during my pregnancy um but I think now I'm in a place where I so so essentially I I've been on a very very long slow road to the enlightenment I currently feel in terms of um my relationship with eating and my relationship with my body um and I'm still on the journey so what is the enlightenment that you found

where's the place that you're at I have um I'm kind of quite vegan but nowhere near completely I have quite a planty diet I love cooking I love eating it I love eating loads I love move if I've got time to move my body every day I feel like I've been given the most precious gift I love it um I don't love looking I don't I've still I think it's just my personality I'm not interested really in buying clothes and yeah and having photos taken of myself or watching myself as myself on things but I I don't mind what I see in the mirror some days I quite like it yeah I feel confident in my bones I think because I know I'm really strong and well yeah um so beyond that I don't really care I'm kind of in it in my life at the moment I'm in a long-term relationship so I don't particularly

care how much people want to go on me or not yeah um I just like I just feel physically I feel very powerful at the moment i don't overthink what i'm going to eat yeah um i plan in terms of sort of how my i'm self-employed so my life's very hectic and chaotic i should say chaotic it's not very routine so i do i roughly plan in terms of shopping and cooking what i'll have time to do when um but i don't you know i don't wake up in the morning and think i'll have this much of this and that i never wear anything i don't you know i don't wake up in the morning and think i have this much of this and that i never wear anything i don't know including myself um i um yeah i think that's probably covers it and then yeah i try and be faintly oh no i won't say faintly i try and be really without ever uh putting too much pressure on myself

because I don't believe really in any absolute rules, which to some people is very stressful, but to me that's where I found my happy place. But I try and be mindful about where my food has come from. So I eat lots of planty stuff. Yeah. But, you know, I'm definitely not an absolute vegan. I still eat fish.

If it's got that MSC label on it i still eat eggs yeah um especially if i've gotten from my mate benji's farm back in dorset where i'm from you know yeah i'm very lucky that i've got all these choices okay a few things i want to ask you yeah i'm going right back to the beginning when you start okay great great great when you ate nine yeah and as you're saying that it just reminded me that i remember reading i don't know where i read it about this girl that used to eat like five raisins a day and she'd cut them up and i remember thinking oh i could do that that's a really great idea where was it oh my god you've just reminded me well for one patch i would eat only a banana a day and i would break the banana up like in in slices and then i would break each slice up into like quarters so that i could

eat it extremely slowly but what was it because it doesn't sound like your parents were the catalyst for you want to not eat or or were like when when where did that come from was it was it to do with your body do you think or do you think it was just you get to certain age and suddenly you're aware that girls aren't really eating or do you not really know there was an element of that but actually no i think it was definitely um disordered eating from a place of bad mental health even as a little kid so um um oh how can i say happy to talk about that yes i i'll find a way of saying it um i mean i can so from my from i had one parent who let's just keep it vague i had one parent who um um though they had a great relationship with food eating so was an inspiration in that sense had um

totally you know it sounds ridiculous to say but very qualified mental health issues in the sense that a string of bad things happened to all my parents um and then they they didn't oh i suppose they didn't not cope with it well but ultimately there was some there was a little bit of trauma going on at home around that age from when i was about nine ten um also my parents broke up around that time but in terms of the most textbook reason my um and the other parent came from a mum who was Austrian and um uh basically brought up in such abject poverty in the war right on the wrong side which is embarrassing but um oh I've heard you talk about this yeah um she um but

she was the most i mean she was the most fascinating and brilliant and generous character my grandmother no i did a grief podcast called grief that's what i spoke about do you know i'm so massive i think i've listened to like everything oh thanks um but yeah she um she uh she was, because she was brought up in such abject poverty, she found fatness disgusting. And we talk about that all the time. But confusingly, the most insane feeder I have ever met. She would not stop offering you food all the time. So as a result, my dad has taken on that mantle.

He would take the piss out of her and taken on that mantle he would take the piss out of her and still will you know take the piss out what she used to be like she's no longer with us but he's exactly the same he will he will you'll walk past a fat child on a beach and he'll make jokes about that sea manatee that he'll make just he'll make horrible fat shaming jokes even about a child. But when you're hanging out with him and his relationship with food is basically awful. He'll be like, when you're hanging out with him,

he'll be like, do you want a biscuit? Do you want a donut? Do you want a biscuit? Do you want a sandwich? Do you want some leftover macaroni and cheese? Do you want something like, and his fridge is like piling out

with stuff that's half gone. Is he overweight? No, and he's never been overweight. Interesting. So he feeds but doesn't eat um yes sort of i think he has patch he would call himself overweight when he's got a slightly wobbly tummy i don't think that's uncommon though because in fact phobia it's only really now that we're probably properly talking about it as though, as it's a real thing. Because I think right up until about four years ago, you could have made any kind of

fat phobic joke in any situation. No one would have reacted. And you probably still can in those cases, just not in our media bubble. And then, but then at the same time, if it's your child, obviously you want to give them things and giving food is one of those caring things you can do for someone. So I don't think that's as antithetical as it's like do you know in a funny way that makes complete sense yeah my dad and i had a massive fallout when my son was only four months old we all went on holiday together which my dad kindly paid for it he'd got his redundancy money and he very kindly took us all

to venice it was an absolute disaster uh he was at the time going through some some heartbreak and he was in a vile mood and he was very fucking horrible to everybody who was there and i was like we have to have a conversation about it we got home we had this big argument and i didn't talk to him and this is bearing in mind his first and only grandchild is a tiny baby i didn't talk to him for like three or four months afterwards i was like this is a horrible man yeah and you know I couldn't love him more it's my dad you know but he's a horror show in some ways um but he was just very very unhappy and not being nice because of that unhappiness so if I was really empathetic he had his shit to deal with yeah anyway we didn't talk for a really long time and the way I knew that

we had made up he would never say sorry he will never say sorry he cannot I think maybe three times in my life and two of them were on text messages said the words i love you he can't do it yeah um he can just do it hammered in a text you know what i mean and the way i knew we'd made up after this fallout is um we went for a coffee where we pretended it hadn't happened and we talked all the way through it and then he went oh by the way this is for you and he handed me a plastic bag full of food that's amazing this is for you and mikey and rudy and it was just some ready meals and some stuff that he'd made but i just random bag of supermarket shopping for me to take that's that's textbook dads that you're forgiven that like haven't been taught how to show emotional

yeah because my dad does that i know that he'll be trying to say something go do you need any money like that is his way of going like is everything okay how are you do you know i mean he doesn't have the language for it but he's provided for our family since we look like he's the breadwinner so the way he gives to the family is money and now i'm like no i couldn't think of anything worse i don't want my dad used to do that as well a little bit when he was when he was still working um when i was a student um i was a student in london and he worked in london then and we used to meet every week not religiously but almost every week and we'd go for wagamamas for lunch and it was lovely but um one time i'd been down to his house with my half siblings and we'd had a sunday lunch and then

i can't remember what body i was in at the time, but his daughter, Amy, my half-sister, who was only like two or three at the time, she was quite a naughty toddler. And she said once, we'd just had dinner and the question was coming up of who was going to have seconds. And Amy, as the toddler went, Jess, Daddy says you're a big fat um Jess daddy says you're a big fat pig daddy says you're a fat greedy pig like and in that way I was like oh she's put you in that

bed that's exactly how dad would talk about someone who ate a lot whilst having been the person that made you eat a lot and I was absolutely devastated even though it wasn't surprised you know you look back now of course that's how my dad would speak about me yeah of course that is how you speak about me um but you know even at 20 whatever i was maybe 19 i was like i'm gonna i'll address this um and we went out for lunch in london to work mamas and i said to him by the way amy you know she dropped you in it didn't she last time i was down and he was couldn't bear it he can't bear that conversation so i don't know what you're talking about i don't know what you're talking about and i said

well she said that you call me a big fat pig a greedy pig that i that you're a greedy pig just for amy and he said i would never say that he could just he couldn't bear it he was just like i would that is not how i talk i would i've never said that she's made it up oh my god and i was like okay it's like she's always making stuff up and i'd never say that and i was like okay well there we go and then anyway we moved on we spoke about everything else under the sun to get over the awkwardness and then at the end of lunch out of nowhere he was like oh this is for you and just gave me a hundred pounds oh my god that is really funny just pay is like paying for your forgiveness. Funny, I took it.

You've got to. Students. That is really funny. But there's so many things there that I think, like even my mum does it to me now and she'll be like,

God, it's so, what's she called? You're like a gannet. Is that, do you ever get that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just don't stop eating.

And I find it really funny and it must be down to their parents having had that restriction. Yeah. Because I just want to eat everything and like all of it. If I have a packet of fiber,

I want to eat the whole packet. Yes. I don't understand people that don't want to do that. Whereas my mum's the other way around. She's like, I can't, you can't just eat the whole packet of sweets and I'll be slightly stuffing the empty packet into the car door.

Like fuck, she doesn't see I've already eaten it. We've just got in the car. And that's, that's definitely, it's nothing about body weight. It's nothing, but it's about the actually act of eating. It's about the food it's the actual act of that that's

impacted or impacted me a lot when i was younger without her realizing yeah that conversation around greediness when it but it would be really the wrong context to use the greediness yeah do you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah yeah and then i feel like now we're coming into such a different conversation we were talking about earlier about the conversation surrounding like fatter bodies and fatness and eating and I think it's such murky waters in terms of how I barely talk about food anymore because it's too political and too politicized but when it comes to your relationship with food now do you feel like you're still battling or trying to figure out what the right way to eat is or no I think I know what the right way to eat is but I don't I'm always able to do it right but

I also don't care yeah most of the time I don't care in fact I remember having a funny conversation so the reason I I so I have therapy and I've been through my disordered eating with my therapist and we'll sometimes go back to her with it and we'll catch up on how that's going and stuff um but many years ago I had a therapist after a heartbreak and um sort of quite apropos of nothing it seemed to me she said what I think maybe we've been talking about drinking so it wasn't at all but I um I'm quite good at just when I'm very very low go or wasn't at all. But I'm quite good at just, when I'm very, very low, or even just a bit low, I'm quite good at responding to my emotional state when it's bad by stopping drinking. Yeah.

Not forever, obviously, so far. But, you know, just going like a week or two off the lash. Yeah, completely, you know. It's definitely make it worse you know i want to feel how i feel yeah this i'm very aware that those can stop you doing yeah i find that much harder to do with eating anyway um uh i didn't know that at the time and i've never addressed it and i was in this therapy session and she said what about eating should we talk about that and i was like sure and she was like so how are you with eating And I was like, sure. And she was like,

so how are you with eating? And I was like, great. I love it. Bloody love it. Absolutely fucking love it, mate. And,

um, you know, and she was like, well, tell me what you've eaten today. And I honestly felt like she said, show me your vagina. It felt like the most intrusive question. I felt like being slapped around the face.

I was just like, how dare you? And I hadn't, I can't remember what I'd eaten that day i don't think i'd had 15 pies it was only halfway through the day i i but the shame oh yeah this wall of shame that came up when it came to someone asking me to give a list of what i'd consumed and i don't know i genuinely it's a hazy memory but i think she moved on pretty quick i wasn't ready to deal with it um but then years later and i'm start doing a podcast about eating i thought actually do you

know what i better address that shit yeah so i got into it you know i got into it probably about six months before starting the podcast with my my current shrink and uh yeah and i i remember again kind of being a little bit sideswiped by her but she was spot on you know i'm talking about it saying i'm pretty sure i've got issues um and then she was like well here's some literature i have cbt now she's very sort of hands-on she's like here's some literature and the literature was all called binge eating disorder and i was like excuse me and the therapist before actually had given me an amazing book called fat as a feminist issue oh i need to read that but the original version which she gave me like one of the 1970s versions and it just had this massive neon writing on it that said um a self-help guide for overeaters

so i'd be reading that on the train with like my hands over the cover like for fuck's sake it's a little bit embarrassing or is it you know anyway it's been a long fucking journey and i would say that i am now in a place where i can i'm better than i've ever been i've got work to do and the work i need to do is to make more time for my eating just so i can be slower and more listening to myself yeah but i'm glad that i've got to a point now where if I um if I'm I can hear my brain and not my body asking me for more food when I know that my body's full I can have a really quick and effective conversation with myself about why my brain's asking for that food yeah if and my brain asks for it a lot yeah I mean I've spoken about it on my podcast before but like initially in the therapy I know

I was expecting all the stuff I was expecting you know if I've gotten very anxious um you know perhaps very I've had a horrible gig textbook you know you're miserable if you're very stressed um but then actually the list just grew and grew and grew and once it was just mild relief like I was in town and I'd had a writing job in the day and then I had a gig that evening I couldn't really be arsed yeah and I got text messages saying it'd been cancelled and it was just mild relief and I was on my way home to have dinner with my family and I was like genuinely my brain first thought of the mild relief was could get a burrito on the way home to have dinner and I was like oh great even mild relief do you go one way the other because my sister my

mum both stop eating if they're stressed anxious whatever i'm the opposite i eat i eat no i want it yeah because it's nice and i love it it's comforting and it feels kind to myself but what i do know is have that conversation and even when i've gone okay so rationally your body's full yeah sometimes i still have it and i don't care because food i think food has got like a few purposes so i think food is one it's first and foremost it's fuel yes then it's enjoyment yeah and then what was the other thing bloody teenagers again sorry oh they're definitely like five i'm still scared of them but yeah i think i always have to say that because there's certain camps of the way that you have food and sometimes food's really good for you and it's nutritious and sometimes

it is just because it's fun and that's fine it's just you've got to find stop because sometimes i think you're either in the camp of a lot of people are either in the camp where everything is fuel and that's like orthorexia or everything is fun and then you're overeating and you've got to find that hashtag balance is that like fuel is like the um the orthorexic spectrum extremist isn't that that stuff where you just, you have 3000 calories a day or whatever, but you just have it as dust for people that don't care about chewing or tasting.

Oh, that sounds awful. No, orthorexic is like an obsession with healthy eating. So they'll only eat like clean foods. It's not actually, it is, it is going to be qualified as a term soon but it is basically

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oh when you were saying about this really fun excited this other day someone asked me what time did you have breakfast and what did you have for breakfast and i immediately felt again like you said attached for no particular reason i think i just had a normal breakfast but my brain was going if i say that why do you care like yeah why does it matter i think there's something attached to women eating that i thought if i say that... Why do you care? Like, why does it matter? I think there's something attached to women eating that I thought, if I say this, will it sound like I've been restrictive? Or will it sound like I've overeaten?

What are they going to think about what I've eaten? Whereas a man could say they'd had a McDonald's breakfast or broccoli and kale, and everyone would be like, that's fine. Whereas I think as a woman, if you say, oh, I had a packet of Starburst or I had whatever, something about it's going to be wrong.

You're either going to have had too unhealthy unhealthy or too healthy and i don't guys do have these issues but it's just not every woman i know has had some kind of disordered relationship with something that they eat it's bleak but we can work on it and i think there's the same thing with that oh what is it i'm going to say it wrong orth Orthorexia. I almost feel like there's an imperative to keep some junk in your life as well, you know? Yeah. Enjoy it. There's some great vegan junk food out there. Yeah, there is good.

I have tried it. But then also calling it, I'm trying to get, I did this with you earlier, but I'm trying to start not calling things crap, junk, good, bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like taking away,

no, no, don't say sorry. It's like just trying to get that moral wording with it. you don't even think of that as moral wording yeah absolutely it is calling it rubbish yeah exactly you're literally calling it rubbish food and then you know it's feel but but then but are we perhaps being a little bit too like making this world also safe because if it's nutritionally rubbish why can't we call it rubbish food but not care that we've had some rubbish yeah i know well that we've had some rubbish food? Yeah, I know. We've been like, look, I definitely got no vitamins off that, you know, whatever, like deep fried item.

But it was blooming delicious. So it had value in that way. Yeah, that's the thing. But then it's the problem of, I get this all the time, it's what angle you're coming at it from. Yes, it's true. If you're a health person like you, but I'm just a clown. Yeah. And I reserve the right to call it junk.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you just have to be, it's because you don't know who's reading it or what they're thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then you will, if you call it junk food, there'll be some people who'll be like, oh my God, I won't eat it because it's junk food. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So you sort of have to have a, I will have to have the caveat of saying,

I think it's nice to eat rubbish sometimes. Yeah. I think it's really good. Oh, I do. really oh i do keep your hand in on the rubbish from whatever you're doing but there's people who i was listening to someone going um they were like i don't have sugar and i was like there's no way in hell you're not having sugar because there's sugar you can't not be having sure you might not be eating sweets but there is sugar in every like naturally occurring sugars and pretty much oh god i mean especially so my son's three now and there's so many stuff so many stuff there we go glad i got that degree um there's so many things that say no added sugar and you're like yeah because it's

already full of it because it's mainly dates or whatever or it's like compressed you know that's where the morality thing's so funny because people will be like, oh, have this healthy bar or whatever. It's not healthy. And they'll be, well, it might be healthy in that it's more nutritiously dense because that's the other language. How nutritiously dense is a Snickers though? I mean, they're all a muchness to those like trick bars and all of that. I should be careful actually, shouldn't I?

No, but that's exactly what I mean. So this is what's really interesting is there's a difference between something being healthy and something being calorie dense. Yes. So we're like, oh, that's healthy. And when people say this is what's really interesting is there's a difference between something healthy and something being calorie dense. Yes. So we're like, oh, that's healthy. And when people say that, what they mean is it's low in calorie. But actually, most of the stuff that's low in calorie isn't that healthy because it's got no nutrition in it. So those bars you buy that are full of dates and nuts and whatever actually are nutritionally dense, got loads of fat and whatever.

Yeah. But calorie wise, you'd be better off having a Kit Kat. Yeah. But we conflate the two. That's why it's got so messy with the language because we're like this is healthy diet shakes and whatever are they because they're low calorie it's so difficult but we've completely conflated the language if we just called a spade a spade and said everything as it is yeah it would make it a lot easier but obviously a marketeer's dream well also that word healthy oh yeah um prep got a bollocking and had to

take healthy off their main logo recently? Because they do sell some stuff that isn't. But who's decided that? Yeah. It does think like, do you know what? The word doesn't really mean anything. No, it doesn't. Just on its own.

Yeah. In context, you know, if you said, I'm training to swim for six miles. This Kit Kat is not healthy. You can say probably isn't. You're probably probably gonna have an empty nutritional value from it you probably get a short high and then it's not gonna help you for swim all that time you're probably better off having something slow release whatever whatever you know but it's context yeah because actually there's going to be other times where it's like um i just watched my partner get off with someone else and i'm already full but i want to feel nice for 10 minutes that kit kat's probably one of the mental health wise

one of the healthiest things you could possibly do for yourself make it a chunky yeah exactly no i completely agree and it's but but but what's stressing me out is that we've got such well there's like a fear of being healthy now because i think we've got we've come so far for me actually let's talk about bodies a minute for me what was so exciting the reason i got into training was i so resonate with you saying you've always had a heavy body yes because i've never had you know when little girls are little girls and they have skinny legs yeah i always had legs yeah i never had i wasn't like bambi i just never had that so that's where this fat training started because as a little girl if I looked back I was tiny I was a child but I wasn't this skinny little girl that most of the other girls were so that's when all the fat probably around eight nine ten eleven started

I wasn't fat I just was heavy I had bones and a body I always had a little body yeah do you know what I mean I was never so that started from such a big boned and actually yeah for me it's I've never had anything to do with that I don't I think I've got pretty average bones but I'm muscly I've been muscly set always my son's got it yeah I watch it and it's stacked. I guess I was like stocky yeah and it was that so for me at school I could never get skinny no matter how hard I tried so when I saw like people doing bodybuilding I was like buzzing this is like a body shape I can attain yeah and that was so exciting for me so going into that was great but now we've gone into in a funny way it's it's almost better that we're it's still about bodies but it's better that we're coming out of the the the heroin

chic phase that I grew up with thank god we're coming out yeah because that was the effie from skins and like the massive thigh that was my. But then we're still forcing people into bodies that just don't fit them. No, exactly. And I think there's an awful lot of people and it's the end of disordered, it's the part of disordered eating, which I still feel like I only hear about

and talk about on very specialist podcasts, like Food Psych and stuff like that. But overexercise is also a type of disordered, you know, you're still a type of self-harm. Well, anything in an exercise is... Yeah, you disordered you know you're still a type of self-harm yeah yeah you know and you'll you know i see i see my peers sometimes talk about going to the gym three four times a day and you think yeah you're you're not doing four times a day but are there someone who that's how they're telling the world of their anorexic this particular person who said that and i was like oh you know that's that's really sad that's

not you know they it's just yeah that's not ideal is it no um and you shouldn't i don't know i think every now and again i have to check myself on it and go are you going because why are you going yeah you know why is it gonna make you feel good yeah what's it like being in it because you you do you are on the tv you are doing stuff well you i mean not that often you're in a position where you are in the media and you are i guess it is that industry that does put a lot of pressure on it do you find do you feel that or not oh yeah and i feel a lot of conflict about it um in the sense that i think i know that if i um not that i i you know i'm i genuinely am woke enough about it to know that if i were to restrict to the point where i was in a small the smallest body i could get into

yeah um i how do i put it there's a chance because of the way the acting industry is that i would get more work i i'm um and i'd say comedy as well as others would argue my friend sarah pascoe is extremely successful genuinely thinks that i say i think there's still a problem with casting tv women in on tv as comedians even who are they they're almost all still in very tiny bodies, naturally or through having a terrible life, forcing that upon themselves. But generally, really, really sad, miserable people.

Or they're people occasionally who are like, I'm fat and deal with it. Joe Brand, you know. And then, but those of us in between i don't think there's a hole's been carved yet no because it's not it's not enough of a mess you had to conform or you're really anti-conformist statement i'm not yet you know there's no and there's no need for one there's no liberation movement on my there's no hench liberation movement and it shouldn't need to be but ultimately I so I feel I do feel a pressure but I'm not bowing to it and ultimately

what will probably happen is I will just have a career where I was I can feel it happening now I will do I will love having acting but if I get the main parts and things it will be things I've written or because I've hustled my and things it will be things I've written or because I've hustled my way up as a comedian and I've grown my profile through stuff where my appearance didn't matter like podcasting like radio like writing and it all it I'll have to find the back I'll have to come in through the back door but I've got an easily societally conventionally body that people like people follow me for my body I'm too big for something I know for facts if I lost weight and I'm already small that I would get more

work I know that isn't that sad that's one of the reasons why I want to be more I don't really want to be in the fitness industry in itself is fine but online if you're an influence like doing I'm not going to do it I can't be arsed I know i either go one way and i become body positive but i'm going to say this i'm going to try and say in a really careful way i my body as it looks is a product of me eating and training how i like yes and feeling good if i put on weight not because of the weight but because it wouldn't be i wouldn't be happy and i'm because i wouldn't be training or eating how i do that fits so i don't have to spend it so either i would have to lose weight in a way that would make me feel uncomfortable or I'd have to put on weight in a way that would make me feel uncomfortable to be body positive in which case I could because you can do very well doing that if I got slightly bigger and was less I'm I'm again in my industry

in the middle like you're in the middle in yours does that make sense so and I've thought about this before I thought well I could go and do I've thought about this before I thought well I could go and do I've seen girls doing it I'm like I could go and do that body positive thing also the other thing is you're if you're happy

and you know I now know if you're happy and you don't grab your hands if you're happy and you know it eat what you want

yes exercise when you want and don't give a fuck when your mum makes a comment about your portion size exactly even at Christmas no I think it's And don't give a fuck when your mum makes a comment about your portion size. Exactly.

Even at Christmas. No, I think it's, it just comes down to, I've lost my own thread. No, I agree. The body that you're in, that's what I was going to say. I think just that I do come back to, I haven't weighed myself for so long now. No. But I did learn from the years of weighing myself in the years of trying and failing at diets or succeeding and then going back i come back to the same weight your body has that point someone might go oh that's okay that we're all different

yeah i come back to a certain weight yeah or within a stone of it. Yeah. Depending on the time of the month. And that's, so that's the bod I'm in. And actually, you, if you are going to, I can still do my career. Yeah. But there are going to be elements of it where I'm going to have to trick them. Yeah. Or be, they'll just be, wait for the change, wait for the change, ring the change, call for the change. All we can do. We, we mustn't change our bodies from the bodies we're in if we're happy yeah and we're being kind to ourselves and if everyone did that then it wouldn't be an issue

but no you can see that people aren't in there you can tell when someone has do you know what i've noticed so whenever someone pushes themselves to lose enough weight that they look like they're kind of verging on not being in the right body you'll suddenly see the babe oh my god you look so good tiny this is my least favorite thing whenever anyone that i follow loses weight you'll see one of their friends will comment you look so tiny this you know that's a compliment that's not why is that a compliment you look so tiny oh my god you look teeny tiny gorgeous teeny tiny none of my friends but people that i follow that are in like of like celebrities kind of programs and all those do you know what i mean yeah those that it's so funny because that's

so outside the scope of what my girlfriends would say or my industry would say but i follow a lot of people that aren't in my industry and they still got that mindset of like you look so tiny yeah and i i can't believe that that's the thing and you can see that these people don't fit their bodies you can tell that they're not being healthy and good you can see when people fit do you know what i mean yeah yeah and i find it really funny because it goes both ways because i i do think with weight there's nothing wrong like as you said everyone's got a different set point there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to be bigger or smaller than they are if that fits their lifestyle yeah yeah but it's got it's become so polarizing that you can't even oh i don't know

i completely agree i know that i'd be more successful if i was if i was thinner or leaner and when we say more successful we mean we'd be giving more breaks for other people yes exactly um and that's not necessarily success no it's not yeah oh 100 you have to make this space was it how much have i listened to you was it you saying about someone else was saying the exact same thing that only oh no actually someone's saying they'd have the only way that they'd get in a part is if they write it themselves but maybe that wasn't you i just said that you did know you did just say yeah i know you literally just said that two minutes ago but i mean i was listening to something either yesterday or the other day and someone said the exact same thing but i can't remember if it was you or if it was a woman of color talking about in order to make space as well yeah much worse yeah but it but it is awful that that is is such

a massive but that's intersectional yeah um yeah i mean god i'm so fucking lucky in a million ways yeah but but sorry no you're right you are lucky you're great um but yeah just the conversation around it's it's because what it is the implication is even if you're not fussed about your body you might get to a really good place where you're like right i feel great i'm body neutral i'm not actually basing off because did you ever used to wake up in the morning and my first thought would be oh if i was thin like before i even thought anything else really maybe not before i ever thought anything else but then also i think i've always i've i've always had it in a way it's a gift um but it's very interesting because of the career that I'm in but I've always given I think maybe it's the countryside again not that many fucks about what

I look like yeah and actually like that thing where and I you know it took me till my um it did take me till my teens to get like a pack of female mates, actually. I think it was a bit of like an oddball. I'd have like one or two friends, but be a bit of a drifter between groups at school. And then in my teens, I got this amazing group of girlfriends and they're still my friends, which I think is brilliant. But I have never been into that, like getting ready for the night out. And I'm going out and my cousins are like i've got cousins who are brother and sister who are like a brother and sister to me and meeting up with the girl one george um when she especially when she was at uni um and to go out with her and her friends

and they would have to give me stuff to wear i remember going to see a friend in new york even in my 20s and she was like we're going out like it's a warehouse yeah like and i was like i've got a shirt she'd be like oh for fuck's sake you know wear this and just other people just have to dress me up and i have to go all right i can't bear it makeup couldn't give a fuck i my friend candice always looks amazing in like just like looks effortless yeah it isn't and i was like make i'm starting to get a bit more work where people are looking at me and taking pictures and stuff can you take a saturday morning out and just give me a lesson um and she very sweetly she's doing

pretty well for herself as a birthday present instead took me around makeup shops oh fab um and they and had them test shit on my face and that and like she bought me one of like whatever one of each the things you have do you know what i mean yeah and um so i've just that was about three years ago and i just buy those same four things over and over again they run out and i buy it again and they run out and i buy it again and i don't want to spend any more time i might occasionally think about it i'm actually really jealous but do you know what i'm so um torn on this because i i sometimes wonder whether it holds me back no because i i think you save so much time but then i also think i actually funnily enough i've thought this before i enjoy the getting ready

for a night out with my girlfriends more than the night out sometimes i find that so much fun i do if we're getting drunk yeah we're drinking yeah and talking and that's when you share the i mean you're still actually listening i think i'm enjoying it because it's like a film when i especially in the uni i live with like seven girls we'll be going through this wardrobe throwing all the clothes like putting loads of outfits on it literally felt like you were in clueless and i can't work out if it's my conditioning or if i just because i'm so conflicted about this gender thing i'm like am I am I really just innately this feminine or because some days I'm not I don't actually give a shit about makeup but I do quite like putting it on because I feel

like now I think increasingly boys teenage boys are enjoying yeah which is lovely so it's not you know it's not a gay thing they're boys going like oh you know taking time over what they're going to put on maybe they won't admit it so much with their friends but there are boys going like, oh, you know, taking time over what they're going to put on. Maybe they won't admit it so much with their friends, but there are boys taking so much care over what they look like that they can't deny that that took time. But I get like feminist shame because I'm like, oh, a little bit because I think, so for a while I actually kind of was like, I'm not going to wear makeup. I'm not. And then I actually was like, but I actually quite like it.

And then I was like, fuck it. Maybe it is conditioning. At least I'm aware and I've questioned it. I don't actually, because I don't actually care if I have makeup on. I actually just sometimes, especially if I've got a lot of stuff to do if i put makeup on it makes me work harder well i think also you psychologically there's something very interesting about um you know the the the way you dress up for uh your psychological mindset and it does bigger impacts on some people than others i always put

makeup on for a gig yeah i've once or twice in 11 years i've forgotten my makeup and when i say put makeup on for a gig i mean in my car in the dark yeah you know in the toilets in front of all the people about to be in front of all on the train all up and around my face with people scowling at me because i should have made the time to do that slowly in front of my own mirror uh whatever i i and i've panicked actually i've really really felt worried stage with that well i don't know i also just think but i've with that i didn't need checking on it but every now and again like my girlfriends from uni my women friends from uni are all incredible women they're successful and like every now and again one of them will just like have a little word like i remember oh my oh my god what two amazing groups of women and i remember one of the ones from home from dorset saves me something once about like jess just just try just take the

time to see if there's loads of food or hair on your clothes or like if your collar's all like down or whatever do you know what i mean like and I've just been getting out with like half a kebab down my top and like one collar bit half up and down and I was like yeah do you know what I mean it is worth looking like you've got her home and you've taken a shower in the last month you know just take that and I remember once a friend coming to see me at the Edinburgh Festival and it was I think I was already doing solo shows and I remember once a friend coming to see me at the Edinburgh Festival and it was I think I was already doing solo shows and I was like I was just going to do my show and she was like

hang on are you going to put shoes on you've got flip flops on and I was like ah wow and she was like how much are the tickets to your show

and in fact I think they were like a tenner or something and I was like she was like just put some shoes on Jess and I was like yeah

okay yeah and I had it was just like these little things they're not they're not a certain shade they're just people saying to me just put some shoes on Jess. And I was like, yeah, okay, yeah. That is really funny. And I had, it was just like these little things that they're not, they're not a certain shade. They're just people saying to me,

take a little bit more care. It's really interesting. And I do think it could, there's something good about taking their lip, it's self care. I do think when people, someone said this on another podcast

I was listening to, I was like, so true, they're like, a woman who's really put together is when he smells really nice, but her hair smells different from her body.

So she's obviously like, really clean hair. And that's when you know someone's, it's a bit like my sister, she's so put together is when he smells really nice but her hair smells different from her body so she's obviously like really clean hair and that's when you know someone's it's a bit like my sister she's so put together and i do think you are a bit too like well this is it it's a different mindset it is because you're like me i'm quite messy my sister is a doctor she's she'll come into my flat and be like it's filthy and it will be i'll have just spring cleaned i'll be like um this to me is she's next level clean I think being messy is a state of mind and I once put on my story on my Instagram I was like do you think it's innate or you can change and everyone's like you're a fucking idiot of course you can teach us

teach yourself to be more organized more tidy you can also it's about your priorities but yeah I just don't think a mess doesn't offend me no it's what you're offended by but I think genuinely once you're once you're you're choosing how you spend your time how you manage your time yeah it's about priorities i did a my podcast a hoovering podcast with faye ripley off of cold feet and many other things and she was very very funny and we had a real laugh but at one point in the podcast she said um she was talking about how much more productive some of her friends are than her. Yeah. And bear in mind, I turned up to this podcast almost an hour late because I got trapped underground on the central line. It was in the heat wave last summer.

And I turned up like gross. And when I arrived, I was like, I won't hug you because I'm sweaty. And she was like, oh, good. And it turns out actually she hates hugs and touching other people. Oh, no. And she's really like, she would never eat something off the floor or whatever. But anyway, as we were talking, she said, some of my friends get five times more done in a day than i would but they always let themselves down with their hair and like she gets her hair done or she has

she does her hair which obviously takes she takes ages over every day and we laugh because obviously there's a point she's making there because i'm getting a lot done that day, but look at the state of my hair. Like, it basically was a big old slap. My great big curly, like, thatch of a wild nest of hair next to this perfect hair. And I was like, it's just perfect. But I wasn't offended by that. I have got wild hair.

I don't care. I'm one of those people that gets five times more done in a day than her. Also, I think as much as I've said I've just chosen to be someone who's more productive, I am trying to be not less productive, but have less in my day. Switch off. Just have less in my day. Honestly, it's my New Year's resolution is to do less. Yeah.

Which sounds ridiculous. No. And already it's proving so effective. Really? If I give myself three things to do in a day and you end up with this spare half hour I'm happier I'm finishing big tasks not just chipping away at small things that take five minutes honestly I'm trying to leave a day a week which is a working day but where there's no meetings in the dark also I'm trying to travel a bit less where are you traveling just with what well no I travel a lot for work and I kind of have to travel a lot for work

but like it's really nice to have like well well, thank you so much for coming here. But like today and tomorrow, I'm not even popping into town for a meeting. Oh, yeah. But it takes a lot out of your day. It takes ages. But also I'll find I'll read my phone all the way to the train and then I'll listen to something on the train or I'll read something. And I'm never not, you know, I don't feel like I've got time to just sit yeah in transit to places yeah and um just just not being that traveling means you can be focused on the thing that's happening to you as it's happening

so much more easily than if you're breaking your day up with little bits of movement traveling all the time but I think that is self-employed things I get this where you I'll do this i'll go to meet all my friends because i work from home will think that you almost don't do anything yeah whereas so what happens is if you go to work and you've got like a nine-to-five job you leave in the morning and you get there and you stay there all day whereas what you do is probably like what i'll do is also because i do so many random things that are the pt client in clapham junction and then i'll go record a podcast in north london and then i'll have a meeting in central london and none of those things are to do the same yes and then I haven't actually done any of the shit I need to do yeah which is all my emails yeah and then you're up at

weird times yeah doing the just no routine emotional fatberg of having done yeah yeah I can't bear it the other thing I do though which is my priority is i wake up really early so i can have a nap oh lovely because naps really help me so i'll get up well i say really early i'll try and get up at like six yeah and then at three yeah i have a nap but i'd rather do that than sleep until nine which i could do because no one's telling me to get up in the morning yeah but it's honestly the better way to live we've completely gone off on a tangent haven't we it's a great one very relevant tangent yeah i didn't know how we felt living our best lives right okay adulting so this is actually meant to be the whole podcast although i've literally gone off the premise but the premise

is meant to be about what socio-political and cultural factors affect the way we grow up right um and i think that pretty much everyone who follows me will if they followed me from instagram will have had some kind of relationship with food or their body that has made them, has impacted the choices they've made. I definitely had that. I mean, I wouldn't even be in my career if I hadn't at some point been like, I had a really arsehole boyfriend, I'm going to get a personal trainer, which in a funny way is an amazing thing that happened.

So thanks to that ex. We push to failure. Yeah. And from that, we grow stronger and different. Yes. We kind of sometimes, you need to go through, thanks to that we push to failure yeah and from that we grow stronger and different yes we kind of sometimes you need to go through i think that's one feeling i have about like um this kind of the this movement towards safe spaces and stuff yeah i'm not 100 down with it because um i'm

talking about this in my new show a bit i think um i i and and and complete inclusivity obviously i want everybody to be welcome in most environments, but certainly in terms of like comedy, especially. But just the world, it's not a safe space. And I think sometimes we should be upset by things. And that's how we grow. Because I think if you are always safe, you're not really challenging yourself.

You're not looking at opinions outside of yours. And that genuinely, genuinely reaching outside of your bubble of people who've had, in terms of your life experience, and only really talking to people who you already agree with, means that you are safe from people with really disgusting opinions. But unless you are really listening to people, even the people with horrible opinions, I don't think you are really listening to people even the people with horrible opinions i don't think you're really growing yeah you need to be broken sometimes

it will happen to you even if you're only moving in as safe spaces as you ever want by heartbreak or grief you know there are ways in which just through living the world isn't safe um and it's only when actually you get completely knocked to pieces it's so awful and people who get knocked to pieces again and again and again you know i'm not advocating that but ultimately i think there's so much to be gained in terms of you're just becoming a person when because our cells will go away and we become completely new we're 15 years ago we were completely different cells we've got less in common with our physical self from 15 years ago as we do with like our own bubble hat that's got some cells on it that at least are you know what as you're saying that it's just made me think it's like you know when people don't let their kids

they wash their hands too much and they don't let them get any germs and then they just get ill it's the same thing if you're not exposed to germs or bad things then i think it actually does do you a disservice i do agree with that and weirdly all the worst things have ever happened to me like when i had a really bad like domestic abuse boyfriend all the stuff funnily enough the best things came out of those awful times i don't that's just me putting a positive spin on it or if genuinely going through some tragedy built does give you that it's like scar tissue and then you get stronger i just think if i've started i don't know why i suppose i'm looking at some duple right now, but we're kind of, we're fragile. Yeah.

Let's have our hands up and say we're fragile. We're not all strong. We're kind of, I'd like to think of it at the moment as being like made of Lego. And every now and again, someone will punch you emotionally and bits of the Lego will shatter off everywhere. And you don't get to rebuild it exactly the same as it was before. Yeah.

And it doesn't necessarily make it better. Sometimes it will will make it better but it will always make it different and that's exciting yeah so true that's being human i love that that was great where can people find more of your great great great chat um what a lovely way of putting it um i've got a podcast called hoovering that's on a cast as well um or in all the places where you might find your podcasts and i'm a stand-up come see me do some stand-up what's your next show uh my next show is called when is my next show what is my next show is called hench and i'm previewing it now and um all my dates for gigs and i must add from april onwards actually are on my website jessicaavisticue.com where are you

can I come to a preview I'd love that oh my god please yeah amazing oh yeah oh yeah you do but like it's got a lot it's got quite a way to go that's fine amazing August so it has to be ready okay that's fine it's fun to see a work in progress yeah definitely working out I love that um thank you so much for listening guys and if you want to find Jessica, I will tag you as well in my below box thingy. What is it called? Comment section. Yeah. I don't know.

Don't ask me. So that we can find you online. Amazing. Thank you so much for listening, guys. And I will also put a link up to when I'm in your podcast because I'm on Hoovering. Yes. Yes. Amazing.

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