Adulting - #37 How To Love The Skin You're In with Anjali Mahto

Episode Date: July 7, 2019

Hi Podulters, I hope you're well :) This week I speak to consultant dermatologist and author, Anjali Mahto. We discuss how skin conditions impact mental health, the ever-evolving beauty ideals and how they impact us, as well as how social media effects our perception of ourselves. I really hope you enjoy the episode and please do rate, review and subscribe, Oenone Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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And I think it's really nice to know that we're not alone when it comes to absolutely fudging up our finances and maybe not feeling so certain of what we're supposed to be doing. But at least if heard. So I'm speaking to Anjali Marto, who is a consultant dermatologist and also author of the Skin Care Bible. And we're talking all thin things skin. So that ranges everything from acne and rosacea to the way that the cosmetic industry is changing. She also does kind of fillers and Botox and things. So she's had quite a lot of experience in dealing with the way that beauty standards kind of directly impact us. And I think it's a really insightful episode. I find it, I find this whole kind of concept of beauty really fascinating. I haven't yet read the beauty myth, but I know that it's something I need to, to get my hands on because I think we're all kind of complicit in trying to look a certain way whilst at the same time if you put your feminist hat on you sometimes get a bit of guilt and I find myself in this weird limbo all the time

so we kind of discuss how to reconcile our conditioning and understanding our conditioning with the with the the kind of true fact that you know life's a bit easier when you've got that pretty privilege so yeah I think it's a good one I really do hope you enjoy it and again I'm so grateful that for everyone that writes a review I literally read all of them so please do keep those coming it means absolute world to me I hope you enjoy the episode. Bye. Hi, guys, and welcome to Adulting. This week, I'm joined by Anjali Marto. Hi, thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on. So Anjali and I are going to be talking all things skin. Do you want to tell everyone about who you are and what you do? Yeah, absolutely. So I am a consultant dermatologist. So that means I see medical and cosmetic skin issues across all ages.

I'm also a spokesperson for the British Skin Foundation, which is the UK's largest skin charity. I sit on a number of national committees for cosmetic dermatology, and I'm still practicing. I see patients day in, day out in my clinics. And I wrote a book last year called The Skincare Bible. Amazing. So just a few things then. Yeah, just a few things. So whenever I think I've spoken about skincare and makeup from, especially on my Instagram and stuff, it's normally coming from the angle of like, we need to be more liberated as women and

not feel reliant on makeup. But from like a dermatological point of view, I guess you probably have a very different understanding of how much those products and skin really impacts our day-to-day life. Absolutely. And I think one of the things that's been hugely under-recognized, not just in the medical community, but the general population, is how much having a skin condition can affect your mental health.

And I remember when I was training, we were told that something like between a third and a half of the people that would come through our clinics with skin issues, be that eczema or psoriasis or acne or a birthmark or a scar, it would be affecting their mental health. And I think that's massively underplayed and massively underrecognized still. I think as well it's because of this nature of covering up and hiding it that people it's seen as an embarrassing dirty thing and one of the great things that you debunk a lot on your page is about how there's a lot of rhetoric to say that spots are caused by unhealthy lifestyles or being lazy or whatever and it's really stigmatized but actually you go into the fact that anyone can get acne it's not necessarily because you're eating greasy chips every day that's right and i think that there is this real

idea at the moment with wellness culture as it is that we should try and control every aspect of our health, be that what we put on our skin or what we put into our bodies. And I think the problem with that is sometimes it is simply down to your own DNA and your hormones and your genetics, and you can't change that. So I think people are necessarily beating themselves up as well, like thinking, I'm just not using the right skincare product. That's why my skin is breaking out, or I'm not eating the right food. That's why I had an acne flare up. And often it's nothing to do with that. So when it does come down to

the fundamentals of what parts we can control when it comes to our skin, what are the things that you really would say, like, these are great things to employ, but then again, you could still suffer with bad skin conditions? Yeah, so I always ask about diet. I mean, nutrition is a big area that I often get asked about with skincare. And I always say that eating well for your skin is the same as eating well for your general health. So it is about, you know, healthy eating patterns that are sustained over a long period of time. It doesn't matter if you have a piece of cake today. It would be an issue if you had a piece of cake every single day, you know, until the next five, six, seven years. So it is making sure that you're eating healthy fats, loads of fiber, rainbow colored plate with lots of fruit and veg, you know,

all the standard stuff that we kind of already know. And that is going to be of benefit to your skin. But in addition to that, you know, making sure that you aren't smoking. People that smoke tend to age much more quickly than people that don't. There are certain skin conditions that are much more common in smokers. Limiting your alcohol intake, and that doesn't mean you can't drink at all, but it's being mindful of how much you have. Because if you're drinking a lot over a long period of time, you're leeching out really important vitamins that are important for your skin. Making sure you get loads of sleep.

So none of this is groundbreaking stuff. A lot of it is simple, sensible lifestyle stuff that you can employ for your skin yeah and i think i think the biggest thing for me is i've stopped smoking now apart from the occasional drunk one um and i do drink occasionally but the worst thing for me was i was always out and about in the sun yeah and i now i'm a factor 50 every single day girl but i know that i've probably done irreparable damage to my skin so it's interesting so five or more sunburns before the age of 18 will double your lifetime risk of getting a melanoma. And melanoma is that really potentially dangerous skin cancer that can spread to other areas. So what I would say is, you know, you can't undo the damage that you've done, but it's great

that you're wearing that sun protection now because a lot of it's about cumulative sun damage. You're making sure you're looking after your skin moving forwards yeah from a medical point of view i.e reducing your risk of skin cancers but also from an anti-aging point of view as well that's another thing i really want to go into because it's so interesting when it comes to the cosmetic versus like the medical way that we approach skin because i've never had acne or any real skin conditions so i can quite flippantly and probably ignorantly talk about the downfalls of the cosmetic side sure but when it comes to medicalized problems like you talk about the mental health but I guess for anyone out there

who is suffering with acne it's probably quite comforting to know that it's it is a big deal I think we really do belittle how important it is. Oh, absolutely. I mean, with acne, for example, we know that it's associated with higher rates of anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, poor body image, worsening kind of like issues with having relationships and employment, and even like depression and suicide. So it is a massive deal. And we tend to overlook that. And what should someone suffering with acne, their first port of call, I guess, is always to go to the doctor. And how easy is that access for people to get the correct information? I think that is the hard part, actually, that you've touched on there. How easy is it for people to access information? Well, I mean, I think what most

people would do if their skin breaks up is they would go to a cosmetic product. You would go to the high street. Maybe you would look at what your favorite influencer blogger has recommended. Maybe you do a little bit of reading. And I'd say that there is some benefit in getting skincare products, so face washes, toners, moisturizers that contain things like salicylic acid, glycolic acid, niacinamide, benzoyl peroxide, tea tree oil, even retinols, vitamin A-based products, they can all be very beneficial for acne-prone skin. But if you've been doing that for a couple of weeks and your acne is getting worse, or you're finding that it's starting to scar and leave permanent marks, or it's really affecting how you feel, that is absolutely the point you should go and see your GP. Okay. So, and when it comes to these, because I've learned a bit more

about this, trying to learn about this myself, but I was then found out by like hyaluronic acid and glycolic acid. So then I think anything that's got that in it, I think, great, I'm going to shove that on my face. Yeah. But that, it doesn't quite work like that, does it? It doesn't. Because the problem is that the more you throw onto your skin, often a lot of these products aren't meant to necessarily be used together. The more you start layering, the more you put yourself at vulnerability of getting issues with dermatitis or eczema, so irritation as a result of these products developing. So it is important. And the tendency is when you've got acne to want to overwash your skin and over scrub and over exfoliate.

You have to be careful with that because the more you do that, the more likely you are not to just end up with irritated dry patches, but you'll still have the spots as well. So you've got to be careful and you've got to be gentle. Totally. There was a bit, and I said that just reminding me, there was a period in school when I had a few, never loads, but I would then get obsessed with washing my skin to the point where I would be squeezing, washing all the time. And I actually got more spots, I think, because I was constantly touching my face. Yeah. And now I've gone through because I'm

fortunate enough to get gifted all the skincare stuff so I try all these different things yeah I'm just that can't be asked and I've just kind of got a bit more relaxed with it and the less I've done and the less makeup I've worn inadvertently has meant that my skin tends to get better I have to be honest I kind of agree that less is more I think when it comes to skincare you know the beauty industry is there to sell to us. And ultimately, you don't need 50 products in the morning and 50 products at night. It doesn't work that way. So I think there is some benefit in stripping back. So how do we reconcile then that discrepancy between knowing that this beauty industry is trying to buy us so much, but also knowing that fundamentally in the world we live in,

we are so impacted by how we're perceived externally. I find it quite hard to navigate that space. No, I agree. And I think that the way that I tend to look at it is with beauty products. I mean, you can accept that we buy beauty products sometimes because they look good and they feel good and they look pretty on our shelves. And there's something nice about going in and trying lots of products out and taking those home. Now, if you are buying those products because it makes you feel good,

it's positive for your mental health, you like the way it smells, you like the way that it looks, you're not really that bothered about what it does. I don't knock that. I think there is something about that and that's the self-care aspect of it. But if you're genuinely buying beauty products,

and I want to say that in inverted commas almost, because you want them to do something, you need to look at what you want it to do. So if you're worried about, for example, fine lines, wrinkles, pigmentation, you need to make sure you have a decent sunscreen. You need to make sure by the time you're in your mid-20s, late-20s, you start using a vitamin A-based if on the other hand that's not a concern for you but you're more worried about say spots and congestion you want to incorporate products like alpha and beta hydroxy acid so glycolic and salicylic acid so i think it's about kind of knowing what it is is your end goal what is your motivation with that skincare and then appropriately picking the right ingredients to go along with it what do you what is do you have a fear that because of google and because of our ability

to research everything and be so knowledgeable that it's actually making things a bit worse so for instance i have rosacea i didn't even know it's rosacea until everyone told me because i one day it flared up if i get embarrassed it comes out yeah and on instagram i was like jane also gets really hot and everyone's like oh my god you've got rosacea you should do this i've had it all my life never once worried about it and now i know what it gets really hot and everyone's like, oh my God, you've got rosacea, you should do this. I've had it all my life, never once worried about it. And now I know what it is. Yeah. I'm suddenly stressed about it.

I've been Googling it. I've been like, I should be trying to fix this. Can't believe I've got it if I'd done this to myself. Yeah. And it was almost better just thinking that I went red and having no answers. I almost preferred that. You know, and it's really interesting that you say that because I remember having a very similar conversation with a journalist friend of mine. And she did not know that she had rosacea. She went into a department store and this guy basically

tried to sell her a whole load of products telling her how awful her rosacea was and she'd never even heard the term before. And understandably, she was really upset about it. You know, she kind of came out going, oh my God, I've just basically now been labeled with a skin condition that I never knew I had did I do something to cause this so I totally understand where you're coming from with that and I think that is the downside of everyone having an opinion you know I think sometimes people think that they're trying to help and they're trying to do a favor by recommending x y or z but actually sometimes it's not that helpful and it's kind of a journey that you almost need to take with your own skin of is this a problem for me if it is it not because with rosacea you often get redness you can get flushing you can get sensitive skin there's a

whole lot of things that go along with it but if those things don't bother you they don't need to be treated totally just because we can doesn't mean we should no i think this is where and last night this whole Kim Kardashian's just brought out her i don't know why it's called kimono either because i can't tell yeah what other cultural i'm not really sure about that but my issue with the whole thing was exactly that like if you have psoriasis or some other skin condition that you always want to use body makeup body makeup's always existed true my fear is with some of these products that we're being told that you have to even if you don't want to you should be wearing body makeup you shouldn't someone said to me but what about showing scars I'm absolutely covered in scars it's never occurred to me once I

should be covering them up yeah I've got a scar on my knee that literally looks like a vulva and my mom is like you need plastic surgery it's so bad I couldn't give a shit but then everyone was saying this I thought oh maybe I maybe I should care and it just worries me like how I don't give a shit. But then everyone was saying this, and I thought, oh, maybe I should care. And it just worries me, like, how, I don't know, but then I'm speaking from a place of privilege again, where maybe I am comfortable enough in my skin that I'm not walking out the door because I feel like I wish I had this product. Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting point, because I remember going through derm training, and even now, one of the really important things that we were always taught to do was the importance of medical camouflage. And if you did have scars, you did have a visible skin condition, and you did feel stigmatized by it, or you felt embarrassed about it, you would offer patients the option

of actually understanding for them how they can cover it up and an onward referral to a camouflage service to do that. So I guess the right or the only answer I think I can come up with there is it's what feels right for you. And if you are somebody that does feel self-conscious about it, there's nothing wrong with covering it. Vice versa, if you're someone that isn't, then it's okay. You don't need to. I think the problem is when we tell people what they have to do.

And that's where things become a bit unfair. And I'm not sure how much of it is just purely body positivity and well not body positivity but just any skin positivity you know we are brought up in an environment where beautiful skin glowing skin is to be revered and that's tricky it's really hard and it's interesting because I think we're going off everything I say this on every episode but it's completely polarized again so you have the body positive the love the skin that you're in, like be confident and don't worry about your acne or whatever. And then we've got the other side of it where I listened to a really interesting episode

of something, I can't remember what it was, but it's talking about how before the Kardashians, all these famous people were getting stuff done, but no one knew. That's right. So they were kind of so far away from it. Were you talking about this? Well, I've talked about it previously, about the interesting things about cosmetic derma. about cosmetic was it you no i don't think it was me talking about that but i've certainly talked about it separately before yeah and just basically how like because she just said oh i just look really young no one was really that interested they're like oh she's just an

anomaly and she looks amazing yeah and let her get on with it but now the kardashians kind of come out and be like no i get trough fillers or whatever it's called and all of this stuff done yeah and then everyone's like great great well i'm gonna i'm gonna get that done too yeah and i don't know what's better is it better that they're being honest or is it worse i don't know well it's funny so i did a talk a couple of years ago at um our dermatology annual conference and it was about sort of rising trends in cosmetic dermatology and cosmetic dermatology in the millennial population is going through the roof so your average age of somebody that would want injectable treatments like botox or filler used to be somebody in their kind of mid mid 40s early 50s and now you are seeing people

in their 20s coming in for those treatments yeah and you're absolutely right it is partly because there's been kind of i guess a demystification of the process. You can go to YouTube, you can watch the videos being done, you can go watch Kim Kardashian have her vampire facial. There's nothing kind of like scary or dangerous or, you know, behind the radar about it anymore. That combined with the fact that in the UK, regulation is very poor as well. So a lot of these treatments have become very cheap you know before you would have to have a certain amount of wealth as well to be able to afford these treatments that's not the case now so i think that's the second part of it and then the third part of it is you know society as a whole i think our idea of beauty as well you know we could talk

about love island we cannot talk about it but you know there is a conversation to be had about does that drive an unreal beauty standard totally there's do you know what it's so interesting actually when you get into the like the politics side of this because culturally we've moved away not totally but especially on instagram away from this eurocentric aryan race beauty towards a more like ethnically ambiguous uh vision of beauty so that's really actually a bit like how angela looks like really almondy eyes and tan skin and like this it's very different from how we were before and that is a really positive thing because i think it gives access to more people to feel like

i mean before it was when i was younger it was literally like you had to be blonde with blue eyes yeah so it's it's interesting it's moved away and another interesting thing you're again again you're saying is beauty does open doors it is a privilege if you're beautiful you genuinely do have more access to work and opportunities yeah so if people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds could get access to enhancing their looks in a way that richer people women mostly probably have done for years that's also kind of lovely in a way because it's like decentralizing that um the access to things but the flip side to a lot of what's going on at the moment is it's really interesting so even i would say about five six years ago when i started out as a consultant when people were

coming to me for injectable treatments they were often showing me photos of things like you know kylie jenner kylie jenner lips That was the standard thing that people wanted. But now you're getting people coming through and they're showing pictures of themselves, face tuned, and they're saying, make me look like me in that photograph. Because again, you know, with all the filters that we've got, it is basically blurring that kind of very fine line between illusion and reality of what you think you look like and what you want to look like and it's it's quite fascinating to watch that change we've actually i just remembered now um you did a post before on instagram about like the the the filter kind of whatever world is yeah um and i was just maybe remember how i came across these instagram pages

where they show you massive influencers who've edited their photos I don't know how they've got the untouched ones but it'll be like a woman and then her Instagram picture and then a picture of her in real life kind of thing and they compare them and go look how much they've edited them and the comments and the abuse below is awful and a lot of people are saying oh I feel so much better about myself now that I know that she doesn't really look like that either and that she's edited herself. But then they all go and attack this person. But the flip side of that is the reason that that woman or person has edited their picture so much is because people will have abused them for not being good enough.

And it's such a cyclical. There's really no way out because whichever way you look at it, you either don't get stuff done and people will attack you for how you look or you get stuff done and then I imagine it becomes very addictive yeah you know it's very difficult isn't it to to not be part of the problem and again problem being in inverted commas because I think it is very hard in some ways to do right we're in this really tricky situation where again you know it is having a good set of abs having beautiful thick luscious hair having glowing skin you know glowing skin is always such a big thing yeah that comes up in idea of health. And then if you filter yourself

to look that way, you can understand the pressures. If we feel them as like mere mortals, if you're really very much in the public eye as a celebrity, you're going to feel that a thousand times more than your average person on Instagram. And I guess also it's where to draw the line because I also say all this commentary but then I dip in and out of using makeup and I get my hair dyed and I still very much conform to these things. It's just maybe because I haven't had those insecurities,

I haven't felt the need to get other things done. But even like I've never wanted my boobs done and there was one point a couple of years ago where I suddenly thought, well, I might as well get them done just because everyone was getting... Just why not? You can buy them on finance,

everyone's getting done. I hadn't seen... There was a period in time when no one in Instagram had real boobs don't even remember this it was just everywhere and now luckily I think it's kind of changed and that's the other problem it's trends like people change their whole face to fit a trend that's transient oh no absolutely and I think the other thing as well as the peer group you're absolutely right you know I feel like I see a lot of people, their friends have had their lips done, so they want their lips done. Like, I think that is actually a thing.

Or you're the person that apparently doesn't care enough about your appearance. Yes. If you're the only person in your social group that isn't, say, having Botox or fillers or whatever it might be, and everybody else is doing it, you're negligent in some way about your own health

and your own wellness. Totally. And I think that the more it does become normal like i got offered literally the other day you know this angie knows my biggest insecurity is i had this on what i call my feck which is my face next i've always been insecure about this in school everyone's caught my feck it's funny no one else cares about it but i do it's just like um it's a thing it's a hereditary thing isn't it where your neck kind of yeah just doesn't i don't think it's a thing no but it's just it's something I see so I think from the side of like a pelican anyway this person that the other day

was just like oh I'll just I can do this treatment for you for free and if you want this and I honestly for a split second thought oh my god because that's unbelievable you what you're forgetting as well people are going off with this stuff yeah it's actually quite hard obviously I would I can't actually yes my following would literally all unfollow me if I did it yeah but that feeling of being able to have access to something which you're told all your life if you just looked a bit better your life will be better yeah this is the problem it's like they get it for free it's so hard to it is and I think you do have to keep yourself in check and I think the only way to do that actually is to make sure you are grounded by sensible people around you as well, that your

self-esteem isn't coming just from that. Because I often think, you know, I work in a clinic where I have access to anything and everything that I want. But that said, I rarely get things done. And I really could. But it's funny because I do feel like, you know, there are some things that are worthwhile doing and there are some things that you're just like, do I really need this? Does this actually really bother me? And one of the hardest things I find is sometimes I get patients or clients come in and they'll say, what can you do to fix me? And I literally, I'm like, I don't need to fix you. I don't see anything opposite me that needs fixing. And then you have to almost break it down into what is it that bothers you? And if it's something

like, you know, I feel like I look a little bit tired all the time. Or I feel like, you know, these lines in my forehead are really, really obvious they didn't used to be. At least that's something you can pinpoint. With this open-ended, what can you do? My goodness, the amount of things you could have done if you wanted. Oh, my God. I didn't know this until you start researching it into what fillers and because, like, really non-invasive stuff can do amazing things. But I didn't even know the places you could put stuff it's no wonder when also i've never really felt insecure about

my face either yeah when i go on instagram if i if i look too much luckily not anymore because i've curated my feed so it's always people that don't make me feel this way but i would come away and be like i'm fucking rank it's awful oh it is but it's we shouldn't be exposed to that many people and that many surgically or not enhanced beautiful people on a day-to-day basis you're Oh, it is. And that was enough. You know, there were like 20 other girls in my class. That was not ideal. I didn't have great skin. I still don't have great skin. But that was a thing. But now you can compare yourself to literally thousands of people, like you've just said. And I think sometimes the idea is, you know, we think these people are like inspirational or aspirational.

And actually, I think the more that you see of this stuff, the worse it makes you feel. And I think it actually is really important to curate your feed and cut it down to the people that don't make you feel that way that don't make you feel worse about opening that app I do think and I think this is what we touched on ages ago when we were talking about this but the weird thing is we seem to want to look at these really aspirational unattainable images and the more we engage with them the more money gets put into them and the more that becomes the kind of norm thing to look at and we have this weird sadistic idea i'll look at girls whose bodies are so far away from mine that i couldn't even get it i've had all the surgery in the world yeah i kind of stare at it and think that's amazing but it's not doing really good yeah but i like it i don't know what i've some must have some analistic enjoyment in looking at it must come from somewhere but the more we do it

and the more we're unaware of it the more we put ourselves in these little like cages of in it it's just endless well it is and I think that like I said the issue with that is you're never going to end up feeling good you're going to open that app you're going to scroll through you can look at five photos let's say before you get bored of it thinking oh my god I don't like any of those people yeah and I think what it does is it takes away from all the things that you do have if constantly that is the level of what you're exposed to. Because let's face it, most people don't look like that. We're talking about like, you know, we talk about like the general population.

Then you've got like an extreme at one end or the other. That is the kind of beautiful extreme and the very enhanced extreme at one end that we're looking at. Well, I also, talking about like Facetune and stuff, because not only will they have like surgical enhancements, but they'll edit their pictures. I'd never used Facetune, but after seeing these websites, I was like, Facetune and stuff, because not only will they have, like, surgical enhancements that edit their pictures, I'd never used Facetune. But after seeing these websites, I was like, I want to try it. And there was a button you could literally press, and it just slims your face. And I honestly pressed it for a half an hour, just going before and after, before and after, because I couldn't believe it.

I was like, oh, my God, that's what I would look like. It makes me want to cry, because it's so sad. And I was like, I'm never doing that, because no wonder. I think if you, basically, also, I can't. I bump into people all the time, so you just know if I'd edited something but if um if you're putting up pictures like that I can imagine how you end up being in a prison of like oh I'll just I'll just edit this and I'll just edit that and then you be a dysphoria between the way you look and the way the world perceives you would be so great I mean I think editing apps those editing apps should be illegal I think

do you know I think it's really interesting because your eye will adapt as well. So there's some really interesting studies that show that if you show people photographs of their normal face, then you show them photos of their nose, you know, artificially slimmed down for photos and artificially enlarged for photos. If people look at their own face with their nose slimmed down for long enough, when they go back and they look at their normal face, they feel like their nose is too big because your eye almost adapts to what it thinks should be normal.

That's frightening. iPhones are also distorting. So I didn't know this either, but there's a wedding photographer, I can't remember what I was talking about, but she was saying how when she takes pictures of these brides, they always, at the minute, like in the last few years,

have become really dissatisfied. They think they're really fat. They don't like their faces because the way your iPhone works works it actually takes pictures that are ever so slightly they're not like hd they make i think they actually might make our faces look a bit slim i don't know there's something about them that they take good pictures to make you want to take oh my god i had no idea photos so i don't i think it's very slight but in comparison to taking a picture on like a proper photography camera and i've even noticed that because when i've had

professional shoots done i always think oh my god I don't I don't like these pictures at all yeah I think the iPhone is ever so slightly distorted and she said that women actually end up then wanting all their pictures edited or they'd rather take them on a phone so I don't know so interesting yeah I think it's all quite and the fact that you can with they students have like edit videos and things i don't know again it's like where to draw the line but i do think those apps really should just not be that readily available yeah the problem as well as you know sometimes then you do actually meet people in real life like you kind of don't want to be almost like a disappointment when people

actually meet you you know i always think that if someone i've met off instagram meets me in real life i kind of want to look at me and go she looks just like what I thought she looked like she's just the way that I thought she'd be like yeah totally and even I used to take really posed but to be fair I was wayliness probably did look like that but even now I don't even want to post a picture where I almost think I look better than I do in my life because of that fear of like it's just not that true is it do you know what I mean and I always story and things but I have met people at blogger events and also it's not the other problem is we've got to stop talking about the individual the consumer in the past and doing it because it's not really our fault it's it's coming from like years of yeah like

either we're all in right or we're all out like if everybody does it and everyone says you know what enough we're not going to do this anymore we'd be fine yeah but that's the issue that we're in is like no one is doing that and people you know, are willing to do all of that stuff, they'll always be further ahead or one step ahead, but it does put us in a very, very difficult position. You know, it's like I sit here and say, well, it's, you know, people shouldn't have this treatment. I don't, they shouldn't do that treatment, but equally I have my high intensity frequency ultrasound for my jawline slimming once a year. I have my occasional Botox.

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So, you know, it's a tricky line to tread of what you feel comfortable with and why you're doing it and i guess it's also a new version of like darwinian's theory of like sexual and natural selection like if you can afford to get this done and you promote yourself in a way that you become more attractive is that not in some dystopian future just another means of surviving? Yeah, and I think survival of the fittest has always been there. It's really hard. I just, you know what really worries me, though, is when we look at figures like a quarter of girls or whatever it will be now, you know, teenage girls will suffer with mental health issues. That's really, really worrying um and it almost feels like all of the insecurities that people had a few years ago from a woman's you know women's magazine or from the kids in your class or whatever else it is that

magnified by a thousand yeah and i think it must be really hard being a teenager growing up now i totally agree i don't think i could i i don't know i mean i already had enough issues and i mostly think they came from listening to my mom talking about a magazine she read that was it I think that was like the biggest yeah thing so to have Instagram I don't know how you would you would cope with that I don't either because I mean either like you have to let your kids use it otherwise they're going to be the kid that doesn't use it which is going to probably be a bit strange or you let them use it but then how do you control like how do you actually control and you know even though the kind kind of more worrying hashtags that have been in the news quite a lot, you know, the Anna and the Mia sites, for example. It's tricky to block all of that.

Yeah, and also, but I used to go on pro-Anna websites when I was younger, but there weren't that many. I'd forgotten about this as well until someone had commented something on my post, and I saw their account name was, like, trying to be anorexic or something.orexic or something and I read and I was like oh my god I used to read stuff like this all the time and that's it all but back then at least there was probably only five of those websites and they get shut down every now and then on Instagram I think the fear is if you push them off Instagram where do they end up and it's almost less safe I think they block the hashtags but they just make new ones all the time that's right um it is really difficult and I think. They block the hashtags, but they just make new ones all the time. That's right. It is really difficult. And I think what people don't realize is the trickle-down effect. So someone might think, oh, but I'm really healthy and I just promote this and that. But it's always going to have a ripple effect into someone feeling like they're not good enough. Oh,

God, it is quite disturbing when you get too deep into it. Oh, it is. It is. It's funny, though, because like for me, you know, it's like I've got acne. I've had acne forever. And I would still be I think it's really important to actually accept that you can have bad skin and you can still get on with your life and do all the things that you talking about, but I kind of feel like with the whole wearing makeup, not wearing makeup, you know, Kim Kardashian, should we, shouldn't we, the body line, all the rest of it. It must come down to the fact that like there's also a time and a place. Like I don't need to have a full face of makeup on when I'm just knocking around at home doing nothing. No. But if I was going to an event, I'd want to. And I think it's important to actually be able to have that choice and still feel positive about your skin at the same time that's totally true but that's also reminding me i do remember having

friends at school and uni who wouldn't even not wear makeup in front of themselves right they'd never want to see them their skin yeah so they would take off their makeup before they went to sleep in the dark and just go straight to sleep so like that level of coverage is and it run and i actually tweeted this and i think this is where it gets difficult because on a, what did I say? I said on a micro level, on a personal level, we need to have the agency to make decisions on how we look. It's so important of how we present. It's the same with clothes and anything, and it gives you a sense of freedom. Yeah.

But on a macro level, it is, I guess, objectively oppressive that we feel like we cannot get on with our day-to-day lives before we create a patriarchal version of beauty. And when I think about how many hours I've spent, not even acting or spending money, but genuinely just worrying that I'm not beautiful enough or I'm not thin enough and just over my life, like actual hours of time when I could have been doing something useful. Yeah. And I kind of would argue, actually, that if you are somebody that your skin is controlling you and you are not in control of your skin. So the example you've described, for example, of, you know, not wanting to even look at yourself in the mirror, that to me actually is a sign, though, that your skin is hugely impacting your mental health.

And that is exactly the sort of person, say, for example, in clinic, I would be like, I think you would really benefit from a clinical psychology input because I think that actually none of us should ever feel that way you know we will all have ups and downs with our skin at some point that's inevitable you're very lucky if you don't yes and we just need to be in a place where even if you're having a bad day you can you know pull yourself out of bed and just go you know I just need to get on with it yeah and if we're not able to do that, we need to be giving people help so they can be in a position where they can. No, I totally agree.

And I think that that needs to be really, because I do think the mental health ties with skin care. My sister's also dermatologist. She always reminds me to stop trivializing skin when you talk about it. She tells me off because she's like, you don't understand people with bad skin often feel like they can't even talk about it because it's like, oh, just your skin because it's cosmetic because it's um yeah it's not vanity really though because the world is telling you that you have to have good skin it's not them being like but i think also with all the kind of um you know the magazines online articles that we have i think

sometimes skin issues are trivialized to the point where they're seen as a beauty or a cosmetic issue rather than a medical one and i always think things like acne and rosacea and pigmentation they're the big ones that always come to mind where you'll often read articles of how to make your skin tone more even or how to get rid of your spots and it's just like you know what maybe you don't need skincare maybe you actually need a prescription cream that's going to sort that out yeah but you're being sold this myth in a bottle of it's just a beauty cosmetic issue we'll sort out for you with the right skincare and I think it's because no one recognizes like skin's the biggest organ in the body but as you say it doesn't get treated in the same way because it's visible as other things but i guess

as well you're right it gets lumped in with everyone's favorite thing is talking about cellulite and scarring and stretch marks and i think those are things we do really need to normalize and the beauty industry has totally can you talk a bit about cellulite because that's good yes I mean both cellulite and stretch mark I always kind of lump together in some ways because one thing I would say is so with my job a lot of my patients will come in and they have to get completely undressed if you're doing a mold check on somebody for example they have to take all their clothes off and I have to be honest you know it's really unusual to see somebody that does not have stretch marks. Like everybody has

stretch marks, even slim people have stretch marks. So for me, like I know that I don't really bat an eyelid when I see them. I don't clock them. They don't, they just don't hit my eye in any way as anything abnormal. But I think there is this idea that also our idea of beauty is very, you know, almost prepubescent beauty, youthful beauty, where people haven't still grown, they haven't developed their stretch marks yet. You know, again, it's that perfect skin. But every adult, I would say every kind of late teen adult has them. It's completely normal. And cellulite is another thing. It's more common in women than it is in men. And even slim women have cellulite. So I think maybe it's for me, I've seen so many bodies over the years that after a while you see enough of them, you're just like, it's so normal. But if you don't work, I say, in a job like that, and maybe you don't see as many naked bodies, all see are these beautiful perfected images you will actually start to believe that that is what's normal and it's not so that's that's exactly where i think

the body positivity movement which we have to remember was created by fat women not by like slim women would say like but that's where these pages are helpful because it does the more you follow them i actually have realized that i'm much less self-conscious subliminally just by constantly seeing images of people with, in better commas, imperfections. It really does help. And my worry is with, sorry to keep coming back to it, but with like these body creams and the skin stuff is, I had to go and look for those pages, first of all.

Like you're not going to, the algorithm's probably not going to chuck up body positivity at you. So unless you're going out to look for it, if this becomes normalized, like what kind of a hellhole are you going to be living in as a 16 year old girl who goes on their first girl's holiday and finds out they've got stretch marks or whatever. I remember one of my friends telling me my boobs are wonky and I'd never know, because you know, but also all boobs are wonky, but you know, when you look at your boobs in the mirror, you know your boobs really well, so they don't look wonky to your naked eye. And we were like 14 and my friend was like, boobs are really wonky and it stuck with me for years because I'd never realized and it's only now I've got older and I've everyone

well I don't wear bra but everyone's being a bit more relaxed about boobs and there's been a lot of backlash against like women feeling like they have to get boob jobs and stuff I'm really comfortable with it yeah so seeing is believing like it does make you feel more comfortable yeah but if you're a young girl i think and you're growing up and all you've got around you is this i don't know how to explain it i just it is really scary i think but then on the other side like it's so nuanced and the scale of the realm of possibility is so large in terms of every individual's going to have a different understanding of beauty and i know that's for sure and i think because one of the issues i feel is i feel like i've given for example so many quotes over the years about like stretch marks cellulite how they're normal so every now and again you do

get an article that will normalize it but despite the fact that the article is normalizing in the text the photo that it will have is still somebody entirely perfect without a single stretch mark yes it's a bit like you know again i again, I'm going to go back to acne, but, you know, acne adverts. And it's just like the people with acne are never the people in the acne adverts. It's still people with perfect skin that have clearly got drawn on spots. So we're still not getting enough of the right images in some way to normalize all of these things.

Yeah, it's like the whole thing that's come out lately with ASOS using bumps on non-pregnant women. And it's like no pregnant woman's not going to have boobs or their body shape's not going to change. People are buying maternity dresses modelled by a girl who's size six with a bump stuck on her. Oh, my God. Like, that's just so backward. Yeah. And I think that is, well, it's privilege at Fundamenti.

It all comes down to that same narrow parameters of where they're picking from the pool of people. But hopefully that will change. I don't know. I feel like things are starting to change in that at least conversations are starting to be had. And that's something. That's something that we didn't, I would say, even have a decade ago. You know, so I think it's funny in some ways, because I think social media is driving those conversations. Because, you know, we moan about it, we say it's bad for your self-esteem. But I think it's also a really good starting point for a lot of these conversations and access to things that you wouldn't see otherwise. I think what's so

interesting about it is I think on the surface level, it throws up the two things. But what it is, is it does give people access to information that they wouldn't have had before. It's really hard as well to see how different socioeconomic groups use different information and it's a it runs a lot deeper than tabloid headlines would have you believe and that's why it's actually a very interesting like anthropological study i'm sure in like 50 years we'll look back and be like what were we doing this is bad no 100 i mean insta is still a fairly new platform for example isn't it was about a decade old if that so we don't really know in terms of long-term effects that it's going to have on us. And what did you, sorry, you brought up Love Island Briefing.

I haven't actually spoken about it on the season, but what do you think in terms of, I know you talk about diversity a lot, because obviously you're a woman of colour in your industry and you often feel like you're not platformed. Yeah. Does watching, did you read the, Yomi Adiyoki, who was on the podcast,

wrote a piece for Vogue about why it's so disheartening to watch a black woman on Love Island. Oh, I didn't read it. So you'll have to fill me in and summary what she said. Okay, so she's expecting guests. She basically just posted it last night. And it was what I thought, a lot of people said to me, you're going to be watching Love Island, you're very feminist, talk about problems. And I said, well, especially in terms of fat bodies. And I kind of said what she said.

I said, as much as it'd be great to have a fat person on there, society is fatphobic. So if you put them in there, we're just going to watch them get bullied and not picked. And that's almost worse. And she basically said, if you watch a dark-skinned black woman on Love Island, you're going to watch them get used and like chucked out and voted off.

And it's just another way of showcasing that we live in a racist society. So when those things of representation come up it works on social media because you can be in a safe echo chamber yeah and then the minute you try and reproduce that in the media i don't know if you've ever read daily mail comments where they shared something oh i refuse to read daily mail comments but it is just terrifying i wonder speaking from your experience how you feel with um mainstream stuff that goes on in terms of love island and things so i think that the whole love island thing you know they're producing tv they're producing entertainment and i can see that one argument is you know there's lots of

shows that are not representative of i mean i think who said to me someone said to me the other day well it's not like coronation streets you know representative of the uk why does love island need to be that's a fair point the flip side though is i think it is a show that is made for young people and it certainly does value an aesthetic and that aesthetic is quite enhanced in some ways be that with a little bit of filler or and i'm saying this from the point of view of what i see in clinic and what I see people coming and asking me for and I think that's a little bit of a problem because again if all your role models are going to be slightly kind of they've had a bit of filler or they've had like you know they've got perfect abs or they've clearly had a boob job or whatever it might be I suspect it probably as a 14, 15, 16 year old is going to make you feel you feel like, oh, well, this is what I need to do to be successful.

This is how I need to look to be successful. Otherwise, no one will take me seriously. No, I agree. And actually, weirdly, yesterday, because I was just interested, I was thinking about success. I'm constantly deviating from what I believe success is because I can be quite like hippy-dippy. I'm like, oh, it's this and that. And then I'm quite rational. I'm like, well, actually, you do need to have a certain level of income and you do need these things but weirdly in this google world where we don't really need to retain information and there's

very few academic roles which are going to be um like well not few but there's going to be so many places where ai can take place of human intelligence maybe being attractive will be the key to success in a world where like i know that sounds really awful but if everything can remember everything and you don't need to be intelligent and we're not going to value you know knowledge because you don't even need to learn something anymore what's the point of learning it if you don't need to remember it see i didn't know about that no i'm just i'm just i'm just thought playing about it because it's weird because i sometimes feel like access to information is huge now i mean i remember when i was first year at university, we used to have to go to the library and we used to have to, like, photocopy papers from the journal articles that you had to find.

Like, there was no, like, just sitting on the internet and being able to just access everything from home. And, like, you know, I look back at that now and I just think, whoa, that was, like, a completely different generation to do that. But at the same time, I kind of feel like even though the information is there, there is still some level of a lack of ability to actually turn that information into something meaningful. So for example, you know, it's very easy to access PubMed, which is where lots of scientific research sits and paper sits. But you can very easily find a paper that's going to confirm your beliefs, because it's what you want to believe in. But it doesn't mean that you understood the paper it might mean that you read two lines of the abstract it may have been a poor quality paper in a poor quality journal with a very poor methodology but if you don't understand how to critically take that apart or appraise that having that

information is really of no use to you it's just going to confirm what you want to believe anyway yeah i think we see this so much in scram i actually think that it's funny because I think the more you know something the less you speak on it so the more actually the more I learned about fitness the less I wanted to write about it because I was like there's a whole I'm quite knowledgeable up to a certain point but I can't actually give you advice on certain things yeah um but that I think it depends on how um maybe evidence-based you are as a person so for me I actually won't go somewhere if I don't talk on it. But unfortunately, as you say, like blanket statements and people on Instagram can give out information, which sounds very wordy and impressive, but it's based off of nothing other than, as you say, a few citations from a, but if you don't know how to critically appraise

information and like confirmation, I mean, it's how the media's word for years though, to be honest, like they've always done that, just dragged a line and. Yeah, absolutely. And let's put it this way, you know, if you're somebody, for example, that believes that, I don't know, cutting out dairy will completely cure your acne, and you have done loads and loads of Google searches about dairy and acne, chances are that, you know, your Google search is very individual to you and your network and your filter bubble. So when you look for then papers, Google Scholar is going to pick up things that already fit your pre-existing beliefs because it finds the things that are most relevant to you. Yeah. So that whole echo chamber filter bubble thing, it's a huge issue.

And also, unless you're literally typing in dairy and acne, you're probably typing in in is dairy causing my acne or will dairy and that sentence already is structured in a way that is going to look for a causal link between those two things that's right and if that's what your friends believe you happen to be in a network of people that believe that have searched similar things chances are you're gonna end up looking and believing in the same things so back to my back to what i was saying about the beauty thing because i completely agree and so what i also meant was more that not not that people are becoming more intelligent because they just have all the knowledge but that if we don't have to remember it i don't think this is necessarily true but i think for a younger generation coming up this might be what it

feels like the more attractive you are that people have built take the kardashian empire take all these people have built millions just literally from looking a certain way. That's the whole thing. An influencer is what a lot of being an influencer is for a lot of people is just being really attractive. So it is an industry in of itself. Oh, it is. And it's a growing industry as well, isn't it? Like, you know, the amount I would say of 14, 15 year olds, that's what they want to do. They want to be a YouTuber or they want to be an influencer rather than I want to have X job or Y job. And the other interesting thing I was thinking about this other day was

years ago, you could feel like you looked quite nice if you went out because someone might take a picture of you on like a flash camera where there's one. And also, everyone looks nice with the flash, so you're going to be fine. But now, it's like cameras from one angle, it's HD. You shouldn't have to see yourself looking that many different ways from that many different angles and why why the key crime vets kardashians but i do find them so problematic what's so interesting about them is they have made themselves as you say a caricatured version of what their perfect selfie would be so my boob i do have a wonky boob my hips are uneven my body if you took

me a straight down like a front on picture my body wouldn't look symmetrical or probably even that nice but bodies move and like yeah that's how they should be but the Kardashians have literally made themselves like a 360 imperceptibly perfect like it's so weird you shouldn't be like humans aren't meant built to be like that I think that's really interesting so because i feel like i see a lot of people and this isn't work that i've done but people that are in the public eye or their influences and they absolutely have had their fillers done in such a way that you can see it's all about their camera angles yeah it's all about how their jawline needs to look amazing from the side or it or their lips need to look really good from the side and it's not just about what the front looks like.

But then you meet them in real life and you're like, oh, that's quite a lot of work you've had done. Like it's really easy to spot. And that is quite interesting. So it's become quite popular, I'd say, at the moment for women to get their jawlines looking quite defined, particularly from the side. But if you overly define a female jawline, it starts to look quite

masculine and quite androgynous and that doesn't suit every woman for some women it's going to make them look very heavy lower face that's not necessarily a good look so it'll look great from the side for a selfie but then when you look at them front on actually you've masculinized a female face it's it's weird because i do feel like we're living in an episode of Black Mirror. But another thing that I often worry about with, another reason I never, well, I never went to YouTube because I find it a bit too invasive personally. I'd rather talk about things I don't necessarily want to talk about or like show you into my life.

It creeps me out. But people who do get so famous on Instagram, then like if you are making yourself look or on YouTube, and if you are making yourself look camera-ready, but not like you're never going to be seen by real people, are we just going to be living in little boxes looking beautifully attractive but not going out into the real world I don't know it's it's such a weird it's so interesting beauty fashion and culture especially when women talk about it are so like oh you just stick to writing about beauty darling or you sit so and it's always really kind of like pigeonholed into this very insignificant narrative but fashion and beauty especially are perfect representations of the time whether that's

how much tech is advanced or um how much liberation or what we're wearing or whether fabrics it's it's everything is is packaged up um into those two things and also we haven't touched on this but i guess it's important what about um the makeup industry for men? Because we've been speaking mostly for women, but I mean, I guess that's a changing market now. It is. And I think, you know, kind of gender neutral beauty is something that we're going to see a lot of as well. So I often get asked about like, you know, do men and women need different skincare or should, you know, makeup, skincare products be different? Well, the truth is men generally age better than women do. And that's partly because men have more collagen in their skin. Their skin is thicker. The second reason

is because they shave. And if you shave, you're constantly exfoliating your skin because there's more hair follicles there. So what you'll find is if you look at, you know, most men use far fewer products, your average man, than a female does. So a lot of people say to me, well, you know, my husband or boyfriend doesn't use anything. Why do I need to? You know, he seems to get away without having to do so. It is partly because they will age better. And secondly, I'd say that they don't necessarily need different products to us either. The only thing I would say is men usually will have slightly often more oily skin than women do. So they might need to use products that are

more geared towards oily skin but it is much more important is your skin dry or sensitive or oily or normal or combination than is it male or female yeah so the whole like you know male versus female skincare makeup there's absolutely no reason why it can't be interchangeable no and i do actually feel like this is one of the things about as a woman, like we were able to cover up our spots. But I remember friends from school, there was a boy in our year. I'm sure he went more on his skin. He had quite bad skin. One day he came back and we were like, oh my God, who's that person?

Because they couldn't cover up their skin. And as a girl, I do feel, women, I do feel very grateful that if that was me, I would have had access to makeup. And even if they could have used makeup, they probably wouldn't have done because you would have been further shamed for using a female product on bad skin. I think men have a really hard time in that way. Although I would say I'm seeing slightly more men coming to clinic now that will. And I wouldn't say it's quite at the place where we want it to be,

but I think that's changing a little bit now. Because I think that would be definitely, when you have that skin um condition if guys could use makeup I do feel like that I remember because I do remember I can I remember things out like in year seven having a really big spot yeah getting my dream matte mousse and my mum would never let me wear makeup so I'd have to go borrow it from my friend and I was mortified I'd hide in the bathroom or break yeah because it is just something about it. It's just so, like you're just conditioned to think it's so bad. And coming back to conditioning,

do men genuinely age better or coming on to like a bit of a Jameela angle, is it also because we're taught that as men age, they're sexy and they're silver foxes? I think that the skin does age better, just anatomically and physiologically because they have more collagen. Collagen is that protein structure

that gives your skin its kind of support. And when we get to our mid-20s onwards, you start to lose about 1% per year of your collagen, which is what contributes to fine lines, wrinkles, and sort of pigmentation sagging. But for men, they've got more collagen to begin with. Okay. So even though they're degrading, they're degrading, they've got more to begin with as they start to degrade. So their skin will always be slightly more resilient. So that's one thing. The second thing, and this is also a physiological thing, is for women, when you get to your 40s onwards, you start to drop your levels of estrogen.

Oh, yeah. And estrogen deficiency, or as you head towards the menopause as you get older, will also accelerate that skin aging process and that collagen loss process. Men don't really go through the menopause as you get older will also accelerate that skin aging process and that collagen loss process men don't really go through the menopause they don't suddenly have a rash you know a rapid decline in their hormones yeah that leads to collagen deficiency effectively in that way and if i was going to be really um again a bit darwinian and not because it's never really harmful but i just find it interesting would that be because like from an evolutionary standpoint once a woman is unable to bear a child there's no point for her to be sexually attractive i think unfortunately that is that there is a level of that and and the other point that you made though if you know do men actually

age better or not i think you're right there is this idea as well that you know women get to a certain age and we just disappear don't we we disappear from the public eye we don't worry to be like men get photographed in hd women get airbrushed yeah and like you will always you never really look at a man and think they've got ugly they could be 70 right he's really handsome yeah whereas there's very like i think it's changing now but definitely women in the media just aren't represented no they're not i mean helen mirren is the only person that's popping into my mind. Yeah, and Emma Thompson. Even think about how it's Holly Willoughby and Philip Schofield.

Like the age disparity there is so random. Why is he on the cat? Why is there not a younger Philip Schofield? And in terms of like women, this has gone to another point, but in terms of like women looking for work and things, you see one woman at the top of every industry and it's so competitive then,

whereas men have got like 50 role models. I know. And, you know, we always talk about about women supporting women but i guess one of the issues with that is when you're already competing for so few places you can see why actually women get so competitive with each other relatively speaking because there's fewer roles for them to begin with yeah totally um okay so coming back to skin and then we'll get um kind of like wrap up this but fundamentally i think one of the most important things to take away from this is that we all are impacted by skin. There's no shame in feeling like your skin is going to impact your mental health because no matter which end of the spectrum you fall on, whether you're ardently feminist or you absolutely love the Kardashians, we've all had the same conditioning and there's no escaping that so what would your kind of like do you have any top tips as to like how to how to get get over like get to get to the point where you're ready to talk about your skin and also anything that you would recommend like avoiding like is the thing about face wipes that we should never use them is that true okay so what i would say is you should never

be at a point where you feel like you can't go about your daily activities because of your skin. You know, if you are the person that is waking up at 6am before your date wakes up because you don't want him to see you without makeup, or you're the person that's cancelled your date, or you've cancelled a night out, or you don't want to go out with your friends, you don't want to go to work because you're having a bad skin day. I would say that it's worthwhile speaking to a health professional because you should not have to feel that way. There's absolutely no reason why your skin should make you do that. I'm not saying that you can't feel down about your skin. But if it's actually limiting all the things that you are able to achieve, it is worthwhile speaking to somebody. You don't need to suffer in silence.

That's the big thing. And then I think on the other side, because you have people, I've just thought right now you have people have really bad skin who that happens to but there's also people with women with amazing skin who feel like they have to wear makeup to be good enough whatever that's i mean oh i don't know it's so complicated because it's so personal it is because you know often i think what you'll find is if you're the kind of person that's wearing makeup to feel better about yourself there might be other behavioral things that you're doing to feel better about yourself yeah and then it's those behavioral things that need to be unpicked not simply just the makeup yeah like that is just one feature of maybe over exercising or whatever it might be but it could be a symptom of something

wider yes going on i agree i agree okay great and then do you have any myths you'd like to unbust myths um the big one always i think is is acne and dairy. And I think it's always worth touching on that. So I hear a lot of people say, if you cut out dairy, your spots will get better. For a small select group of people, yes, that is true. Dairy may have a part to play. But for the vast majority of people, cutting dairy out of your diet is not going to get rid of your spots, because it's all down to hormones and genetics. Okay. And I think it's that idea of like, people think that your hormones you can ingest and it doesn't work like that yeah it doesn't work like this okay amazing oh i've literally loved this chat oh me

too so if people want to come and find you not literally but um online or wherever where should we look for you um so i'm angelie marto on instagram and dr angelie marto on twitter perfect and your book is the skincare bible yeah amazing thank you so much for joining me. And thank you so much, guys, for listening. Bye. Bye. FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one We'll be right back. and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Research and supply.

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