Adulting - #40 How To Empower Yourself with Emma-Lou Montgomery

Episode Date: July 28, 2019

This episode is in partnership with Fidelity International. I speak to Emma-Lou Montgomery about their new research on women and money (www.fidelity.co.uk/womenandmoney), how to get invested, why we need to start saving and how to achieve financial wellness. You can follow Fidelity on Instagram, @fidelityinternational. I really hope you enjoy and please do rate, review and subscribe!Oenone Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.casino.fand you're well. This week's episode is in partnership with financial services company Fidelity, who have recently commissioned some research on women and money, which is what I talk about in this episode with Emma Liu. So we discuss the importance of getting into investing, how gendered language impacts us as women when it comes to money and finances,

and why it's so important that we all start trying to put a little bit away straight away. I really hope you enjoy the episode and that you get some useful tips from it. if you do want to access the report that they've done I've linked that down in the show notes. I've somehow managed to get myself a bit of a summer cold but hopefully when you're listening to this I'll be setting myself in beautiful Italy which I'm really excited about so I'm sure if you want to see more of that you can head over to my Instagram. But thank you so much Fidelity for being a part of Adulting and I hope you enjoy the episode. Bye! Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. This week I am joined by Emma Lou Montgomery. Hello. How are you doing? Yeah very good good. Thank you.

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me. We're actually in really gorgeous studios that are Fidelity's own. Could you tell everyone who you are and a little bit about what you do for those who might not know? Yeah, sure. So I work for Fidelity Personal Investing. And at the moment, I'm really sort of focusing on getting women invested and focusing on the issues that affect women when it comes to our finances and planning ahead and just thinking about sort of not only just day-to-day spending, but also planning for our futures and families and everything else, basically, sort of cradle to grave financial well-being, really. Yeah, and so I'm covering that right now, but my background is as a financial journalist. I think I've been one for something like 25 years coming up so quite a while but it's flown so yeah I've covered all sorts there from you know sort of

individual stock market stuff for the Daily Telegraph to uh just sort of working on Money Wise magazine as the editor of that covering all sorts of personal finance but for me what's always been key is sort of you know getting women talking a subject, which typically I don't think we do. I think we somehow feel it's, you know, something that men do or, I don't know, something that other sorts of women do, but not us. Yeah, totally. And it's so important. It's so important. I think it's an initiative that it's a shame that it's almost taken so long to get to the point where we are able to have more open and candid conversations around it.

And I think especially when it comes to female empowerment, it's a slogan that we see bandaged around by loads of brands and advertising agencies, especially at the minute, trying to cash in on this new wave of feminism. But the real crux of empowerment or agency does come from financial stability. And so I think that that's why this kind of these, this investigative work that you've been doing into women in finance is so timely. Yeah, well, it's so important. I mean, money is at the root of all evil, you could say, but it's also the root of everything good as well. You know, we all spend money, we all save money, well, hopefully, you know, we deal with money on a day to day basis. So when women sort of go, Oh, no, I don't really have anything to do with money or finance, you just say, hang on, you do. I bet you anything that these women who are saying they

aren't actually financially savvy are really good at spotting a bargain, know how to shop around. All of that is still financial and it's still really important and also can be put to really good use when it comes to looking after your own financial future as well. Yeah. Well, I think I think you're right. I think it's the gendered way that we approach money a lot of the time. So as you say, everything we engage with is money, whether that's your clothes or the food that you're buying, because we live in a capitalist society where shopping and everything. But because that corner of the way that money is deemed in society, I think makes it be viewed as less than. So the way that women spend and talk about their money, they don't realise that actually it's the same mechanisms

as men in big banks doing investments. Absolutely the same. It's just talked about in a way that makes it seem or deemed less important. It is. And like when men have a conversation about money, typically it'll be competitive. So it'll be, oh my God, I invested in X or whatever

and I've made Y. Whereas women tend not to talk like that. In fact, the press often talks to women as well about money in terms of, oh, you know, save this much and you can buy a handbag or how much you're spending on your makeup, that kind of thing. And it's all very sort of lifestyle orientated, which is fine. But the fact is, though, that it is still just as important and just as weighty, the sort of underlying financial aspects of any of those conversations are still as important totally you know and I think as well another language they

always used to use I remember this is like splurge shots like women it's always about spending and I think because women for so long were told that our greatest capital is the way that we look or how we are viewed aesthetically that actually a lot of the money that we spend goes into improving um maybe those kind of paradigms whereas men are taught that you know you've got to invest for the long term and you're carrying on a family name and it's it's really really old ideas that have seeped in and kind of carried on permeating even till today yeah and it's also the technical aspects for them we are sort of we're steered away from those aren't we with popular media we're sort of taken away

from the nuts and bolts of it and the sort of not the gamification but the sort of more competitive side of it whereas for men that's really highlighted it's always about you know these are the products these are the sort of like nuts and bolts these are the things you need to know about and then you know I mean myself when I think about it I think well I don't really care I don't really need to know all of that kind of stuff, to be honest. I'm more interested in the end result. And I think just admitting that and then you talk to friends and they're like, well, I'm the same. And you go, yes, but so that doesn't make us stupid or you're sort of like less worthy of talking about it.

It's just that sort of our priorities and our focus when it comes to our finances is less sort of worrying about how something works and just but just sort of focusing instead on the end result and what you want to get out of it yeah I think you're right I think it's that balancing the risk so it's more kind of like is this going to be actually feasibly useful for me because women tend to take less risk because we're just told that you know we aren't capable of doing it and men tend to be a lot more cocksure and willing to absolutely but I think it's also finances is taught, especially as a woman. You're taught that kind of like, oh, it's not for you. You won't understand it.

So don't honestly don't worry about it. And then it feels so alienating that you kind of feel like, well, it isn't for me. That's right. But can you explain why on a very base level, why it is so important that we as women are starting to take control of our finances, especially from a younger age, because I do think that you start to think maybe when you have children or when you get married, especially, I feel like finances then become a conversation that you probably start to put on the table. But it really needs to be something that you're trying to engage with straight away. Well, hopefully. I mean, yeah, it's so important. I mean, women typically live longer than men.

So for starters, from word go, we have to make sure that we've got the money there to help us to live comfortably for longer. Otherwise, you know, what's going to happen? We can't rely on anybody else to look after us. So that's one of the key lessons. You know, you've got to prepare for a longer life. Secondly, you've got to start putting yourself first. You know, women typically don't do that. We tend to be, you know, the good mother, the good daughter, the good wife, whatever. We don't put ourselves first. And that's shown in

the data which we've done. We did this financial power of women report. And we just saw that women tend to not even think it's relevant to them and they won't sort of put themselves first. And women say who do start, who do sort of start saving saving as soon as they have a child their savings for themselves absolutely go out the window because the focus is then on the child because they are no longer you know number one important so therefore you don't you know stop thinking about their own financial futures so i think you've got to put yourself first um so you've got to yeah so you've got to prepare for longer you've got to put yourself first and also you haven't got to think that this is something that either somebody else is going to look after for you or that isn't relevant to you.

Because it most certainly is relevant to you. And secondly, no one else is going to look after you. You've got to start saving. And it's sort of crucial that you start saving sooner because as women also it's you know it's stereotypical maybe but and cliche but it is also 100% true that we have a lot more potential to actually earn less and then ultimately it would save or invest less as well and that's that's you know all those factors all together mean that the you know talk about women being averse to risk. Well, God, we are really high risk when it comes to the amount of time we need to live for, our aversion to actually putting ourselves first,

and then our sort of inability or inertia or fear or whatever that stops us from actually saving and investing in the first place. It's a dangerous cocktail. Totally. And I think the other thing that happens is you've got the intersection of gender, but you go beyond that to class or perceived wealth. And I think that when people feel like they're from a background which isn't from money, that's another barrier to realizing that finance is actually for you. I think even I used to be of the belief that until you're earning 100k a year, you know, money isn't something which is kind of, it's not enough money to make it plausible to invest.

That's really not the way it is no not at all because i mean whatever you're saving as long as you're saving something then you're doing the right thing absolutely because we've i mean the fact is that men and women have a gender pay not pay gap but a gender savings pension gap between them so if you are in you know it's got the um if you're in a company and you've got auto-enrollment if you just pay in the minimum by the time you retire a man as opposed to a woman would have 11 percent say more in his pension fund than a woman would have what's what's the reason for that well it comes down to things like the fact that as a woman you're most likely to have taken um some

kind of like career break say to have children or if it's not to have children, it'd be something like to look after an elderly relative. Yeah, anything like that. Because again, the burden normally falls on the girl, the woman. So it's like the good daughter, good wife, good mother syndrome thing again. So there's that issue. But there's also the fact that women tend to earn less, either because of the gender pay gap,

or because maybe once they have children, or for whatever other reasons, they want to work part time. And I think the other thing, not even about gender pay gaps, but the actual gender data gap. So when we have at the minute seen that throughout history, it's mostly been the same kind of men that have ruled all of these institutions, and therefore have put in the information that they think is relevant. But once we get more women, I guess, earning more money and being at the top of these industries, they can then make it better for women to come in the future, because hopefully we will undo a bit of the social conditioning that says that women go home to look after the baby or that women are

only inherently caregivers. You know, I think that that's another really important thing, that it's not just for you, but if we all strive to change the way the economy works, that will actually have a massive impact on like socio-political issues and cultural things as well. It's not it's all interlinked, isn't it? It is. But I think if you use that as an excuse now for not investing or saving for your future, then that doesn't really work either because I mean there are enough women who are the main breadwinners in relationships and families who should still be saving and investing but are still sort of making excuses to why they're not oh no I'm saying I'm saying it's good that's why you should because the more women invest the more women that then accrue like better financial stability and then have more influence in financial sectors etc

that will hopefully like undo the the imbalance that exists now yeah hopefully yes yeah exactly but maybe over a longer period of time yeah um on what what when you were looking into doing your research i think one of the things you were saying that came up a lot was the fact that before we even get into thinking about money no one's even talking about it and especially within relationships yes um and how what what were your figures kind of saying about those things within relationships well the figures were quite shocking really sort of um almost half of women tend to not actually think about their pensions and then don't even know what what what they've got in their pensions when they do have them i mean that might be because of complexity of pension pots. So, you know, with auto-enrollment, you've got to be earning £10,000 with your

employer to actually be automatically enrolled. So if you are, say, a woman who's got more than one job with different employers, and each time, you know, you're earning just over the £10,000, or whatever, or way over, it doesn't matter. But it might be that you've got lots of different pots, so you're not actually on top of how much you're actually saving into your pension um so I think that's a problem could you explain just a bit more in depth people might not know specifically how a pension works because even I because I'm freelance I only realized the other day that I need to source my own pension you absolutely do there isn't one for me so I found a new startup that does that for people

like me but what but prior to that minute it's actually annoyingly I hate this but it's because my boyfriend said to me he's really clued up on finance he does work in the industry so that's fair enough um and he was like you really need to kind of address this for people who aren't really sure of what a pension is and maybe just hear it going by could you give a really like concise explanation of why it's important and what it is yeah well as a self-employed person it's even more crucial and the figures show that even fewer self-employed women even bother with pension so that's even scarier that's definitely more than half don't even bother with the pension well pension is just it's a horrible word and i think it puts people

lots of people off but basically all it means is that you're saving regularly into a pot, which is invested then on your behalf. And depending on which sort of type of pension you have, you can even choose what you invest in. And then that's left to grow nicely. And then benefits of something called compounding, compound interest, grow. So you get interest or the money growing and the interest growing itself. So you get sort of like a snowball effect. And that's really, really, really essential to sort of get into play as soon as possible. And then what happens is when you come to retire, now you can retire from the age of 55 and take 25% of that pension pot tax free, and then you can choose what you do with the rest of it. But I mean,

that's further down the line. The key thing now is to really put money aside so if you're um if you're employed so if you're in auto enrollment for goodness sake when your employer signs you up don't even think about opting out because even if you think to yourself well you know that one percent of my pension or whatever I could do to have now I need the money put it aside because seriously that money will grow so nicely for you and you know we all do it we all sort of like spend whatever we've got don't we so if it's not there you probably aren't even going to notice it so yeah leave it invested that's basically free money from your employer so take that leave it invested there top it up if you can as well

ideally and just leave it invested and keep doing that on a regular basis am I right in thinking that sometimes your employer will kind of give you an extra 5% on top or like kind of match extra? They might well do. I'm sure some of my friends have that, which is a really good initiative, if you know it exists to make sure you sign up. Yeah, pension matching. So if you put some more in, they might also match that for you up to a certain amount

or whatever. All companies are different. There is a minimum depending on sort of what sort of, you know, there is a minimum depending on sort of um what sort of you know there is a minimum at the moment of how much you need to contribute and how much your employer needs to contribute but there are older schemes where people are there and they're sort of you know their employer will contribute say more yeah um like fidelity will pay more in for us than the minimum right and then we can pay something and they'll also match that so you know it's just worth taking that money if you're self-employed of course you don't have the benefit of this

unfortunately so the onus is 100% on you to actually open yeah open open a SIP a self-invested personal pension and start saving into it but the beauty is again I know that it's difficult being freelance too because your income can go up and down but if you can even put aside say I don't know 50 pounds a month if not even that necessarily I mean some have a minimum where you can only pay in 50 pounds upwards but say but you could always say collect it together over a period of time and then when you get um you know when you get sort of like a good month or whatever or your money comes in you could actually put that into your pension then. The benefit of pensions also, of course, even if you're self-employed, is that you get this tax boost. So you actually get a contribution from the taxman on your contributions that you're making. It's described as tax relief. So as a minimum, you'd get 20%. And obviously, if you're

a higher rate or a top rate taxpayer you claim that through your self-assessment and then you can actually get you know claim back even more so the cost to you is even less than it looks like as it were because you're actually getting topped up by the government so it's it's it's really really you know it's a no-brainer really yeah i think you i think but just before as well you touched on such an important thing which is the fear of investment comes from that um immediate feeling of i think we feel like god if i put that way now i'm really going to struggle with not having it and i think women especially are more impacted by that because of what you said about the caregiving thing where we're always trying to look after other people

and i think there are some statistics to say you know that women will look at their money as not really theirs but it's theirs and their families and like what if something happens yes but that what if is why I guess investment is so important because it's not just when you retire that you might have a time out from work it's you know if you go to have a baby as you said or if something happens yes absolutely but then I'd say have the pension the good thing about the pension is you can't actually touch it till you're at least 55, which is good because you can't dip into it, which means then if you are thinking ahead and planning like you're in there but put that money away into something like an ISA and you don't pay any tax on the gains you make within it so it's not as tax efficient but it's still very tax efficient a very good way of saving so when it comes to savings versus investing because I think that that also that leap I think people think sounds scary because obviously with investments it does mean that your money is kind of being moved in that of pots to

increase and decrease over time whereas I think sometimes people think it's safer just to have it in like a bank savings account that's not as helpful as it because you're not making any money no right so when I'm talking about savings so people talk about pension savings and they don't mean like in a savings account necessarily it is they are savings and investing are sort of used interchangeably slightly so but yeah I mean outside of pensions now just in terms of general savings you're talking about ices and things yeah and I think that one of the fears when it comes to investing is that especially if you're investing in shares and things you know that that money could be dropping and increasing etc yes and so people especially women with that low that aversion to

risk will then maybe think i'm better off just leaving it sat in my bank account yeah and you absolutely 100 are not yeah exactly so yeah that's i mean that's how it's true because our report actually showed that 43 of women would opt for a cash isa as opposed to only 19 of women who adopt for stocks and shares isa right yeah so basically they're taking such a risk with their money there because if you leave it in cash in a low interest environment like we're in at the moment not only is your money not going to grow you've also got the effects of inflation which means that the value of the pound in your pocket is eroded which means that the savings there yeah i just you know they're not growing at all in fact you could end up with technically say 20 years down the line or further sort of less money in real terms than you actually

think you've got sitting there so what are the first steps for someone who wants to start investing their money but feels like they don't really know where to go and where to look or who to who to trust in this world at the minute yeah first of all I think you've got to sort of you've got to split your money up into you know sort of money you might need in the short term, and money might need sort of longer term. So pensions are one thing, very long term, you know, tuck that away, invest and save as you can. And that's ideal. But when it comes to your other state savings, like you say, you might want it for a sort of a rainy day type of situation. So if it's a very, very short period of time and you know you're

going to need this money, say like, I don't know, next month or in the next two or three months, you might be better off keeping that money in cash, having said all that, because then you know it's there and nothing is going to happen to it in that period of time and you can withdraw it. But if you've got anything longer than that, anything sort of, I would say, sort of two, three years onwards, you should be looking at stocks and shares right um and you know you can invest in individual shares if you you know a company you want to invest in but I think the better way to do it is to actually look at a fund where you've actually got a fund manager who will actually choose the investments for you so you

choose what kind of again you've got to know what sort of risk you want to take with your money, whether you want that money to be able to grow, but only maybe to a sort of limited extent, or you're prepared to say, well, you know what, I put this money aside, I don't particularly need this now for the next sort of 10, 15 years. I'm quite happy to put that in something a bit more adventurous. Potential for the stock market to go up and down, yes. But the beauty of investing in stocks and shares for the longer term is that you've got something where you've sort of, it averages out slightly. And I mean, as long as you don't sort of make the mistake of desperately needing that money and then pulling your money out just as the

market hits an all-time low, you know, that would be bad. But as long as you can sort of ride it out, and if you get to a point where the stock market looks a bit wobbly, you can hold fire and just sit it out and then take your money out when the market's gone back up. You know, the risks of sort of losing it all are then not such a big deal. As long as you can wait. Yes, it's definitely, stocks and shares investing is for the longer term. It's definitely not if you need your money out next week or a month's time I think what it is and only because I've really actually taken a keen interest in trying to learn about

finance because I have I very much was the perfect example of I don't really want to look at it I didn't want to look at how much I was earning or look at my tax because it just to me was so alien and so scary and then the minute you start breaking it down you think it's okay and now I really do want to start investing money and putting things away from the future because I had a whole I had to do a whole 180 with the even the way that I thought about the way that the future was so I think that the hardest thing to get your head around is the fact that you can put something away for 10 to 15 years and that even though that feels so far away it's only ever going to do you like good to put that money away now but is there is there really no minimum amount that you could start saying so could you do you really

need to have saved a certain amount up to put it into shares short answer no no not at all anything you can save is good there is no minimum and you don't have to be rich yeah you don't have to have a certain amount of income you don't have to have a certain level of saving before you start saving or investing you can start with five pounds you know it's that simple yeah and as long as you do it I think then you sort of get into the habit of it and it's a good way of starting I think but save a small amount invest a small amount you know don't you don't make sacrifices, you don't want to make sacrifices. You certainly don't want to be sort of like investing so much, say in a new ISA or something like that, that you are then sort of aware of that money, leaving your bank account and feeling sort of, oh my God, now I can't pay for X, Y and Z. Yeah. That's not what you want to be doing here at all. You want to have, you want to put the

money aside, which, you know, you don't need right now. you don't probably ever really need so put it aside let it grow and you'll be just amazed i do think the difficulty with the savings especially for women is the fact that we are marketed it so frequently so that all the time you're being told to shop to make something feel better because of captains or whatever so all that little bit pot of money that you probably don't need that might go on those superfluous things that you buy so that dress that you didn't really need or whatever yeah it's really hard I think to retrain yourself to realize that that immediate satisfaction that kind of capitalism is telling you you need is actually would be greatly outweighed by the benefits of of taking control of your money and I think especially from the empowerment side

of when it comes to things like domestic abuse or relationships like that for for you to be financially stable is one of the most incredible things you can do for yourself to kind of, I guess, protect yourself from things like that. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. The idea of saving or investing is boring. Yeah. You know, it bores most people to tears. And that's why people think,

God, you know what? I'd rather live today. I'd rather spend it and have fun. You can understand it. You know, what's more exciting? New makeup, new dress or, you know, saving well you know it's i think most people think well you know what in the short term i'd rather go for the uh tree fanduel casinos exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling winning which beats even the 27th best feeling

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Now, but having said all that as well, you know, you're doing yourself a favour and you will really sort of thank yourself if you do set some of that money aside. So not all of it, not so you can't go and spend on what you want to spend now, but, you know know put some aside so you have got that financial security and you have got a financial future ahead of you and like you say to be left without any kind of financial independence is very very dangerous yeah because yeah I mean there's too many situations where as a woman you're leaving yourself home to all sorts of risks if you are

reliant on somebody else say like a partner or whoever financially and and too many you know from the study we did too many women as well are reliant on say like their their husband's pension and they they end up getting divorced say or something dreadful happens like that and they're sort of that what you do now they have no plan b and they were reliant on this sort of like you know the marriage lasting and their pension being paid out to them the husband's pension being paid to them further down the line and then that's just cut off i think it's something we're definitely saying with my parents generation i think you see a lot a lot of that happening because especially in those

days i guess you would it was the very traditional idea of you had a job then you had a baby you left a job and you got married and you the husband was the breadwinner and I think because that is thankfully changing and we are getting it more more equality but women are doing better but then still are missing some of the fundamental education around money or the things that men have been kind of conditioned to know from the get-go I don't know when in life that happens but my my male friends seems to be so much more clued up on money than my girlfriends and I can't see I don't know when that happened I don't even think there is a time when it happens I think it's a it's just something we all need to actively do yeah you know it just we need to sort of and we

need to say that it we need to like identify like you can see that happening now and then sort of pull yourself up on that and say hang on a second why is that there is no real reason for it yeah it is just a thing of it's probably comes down again we think it's slightly dull and boring and we can think of other things to do with our money or we think it's not relevant to us yeah you know we think oh you know oh yeah well he would be good at it he's a guy oh I'm a girl I can't be bothered or I don't know what you know well I don't I don't necessarily think the onus is on the individual I think it's the way that society especially when it comes to mainstream media and even like magazine outlets and things kind of you when you think about even from such young age you buy a magazine and it says you know it's all lip gloss and boys magazines

already I think from like age seven or eight are telling them talking start talking about in a language that implies investing and longer term do you know what I mean I think yeah you're right but I don't you see I don't think we can write that off though as oh it's you know it's the media's fault or government needs to do something I think we as women see the gap see the problem and I you know I just think we've got to take responsibility for it you know other things are changing in life we can't we haven't sat back and sort of said oh gender you know gender equality is is happening more and more yeah there's all sorts of things like that going

on so I think financial gender equality we have to take control of too you know enough women will speak out on things like you know me too absolutely rightly so why on earth would we then not sort of stand up put on our big girl pants and sort of say you know hang on a second you know we've also got to look after ourselves financially and not not blame everybody else and then do nothing I totally agree but I think that feeling of it's almost like a privilege of um feeling like maybe you don't have the ability to access this information or whatever and I totally agree that it's got to come fundamentally from you and we we are luckily lucky enough to be living in London and feel like autonomous enough to go out and earn this money whatever but I do think that for a lot of women especially maybe growing up in religious backgrounds or different environments where

it wasn't really cultivating that the belief that you can access this so I think I think it comes from both sides I think it's both cultural and personal it does it does it's quite it is tricky but it is tricky I mean it is tricky. I mean, and I don't think you can solve it overnight. No, definitely. You know, and I think this is, this is good. So we're all aware of it now. We all sort of at least know that we should be doing something. And then we talk to other girlfriends and talk to people and just encourage them as well. You know, I think the best thing we can do is sort of make this an open conversation and talk openly about money and talk about the fact that we find it boring or that, you know, we're not, we don't feel that engaged with it. And I do think the industry

does need to do more, but I think it's starting to realize that, you know, we are finding that more companies are sort of talking more equally to women about it. Women don't need things to be pink or talk down about so that we can understand it in our little girly way. You know, they do understand that we are just as intelligent as men. If not more. If not more. Exactly, I was about to add that. You know, so it's absolutely, it is changing.

Yeah. You know, and we've got to, why should finance or money be sort of a male domain? No, I don't think it should be. No, I know, you're not saying that. Yeah, no, I agree. You know, we do think of it like that. Like for me, you know, when I was young, when I wanted should be. No, I know. You're not saying that. Yeah, no, I agree. We do think of it like that. Like for me, you know, when I was young, when I wanted to be a journalist, I seriously pictured myself, I was either going to be editor of Vogue or Cosmo, right?

Yeah. And then I sort of say that still today, almost making apologies for ending up being a financial journalist, as though, oh God, that's a bit odd for a girl. Yeah. You know, but it's silly. It's so true. I mean, even when I was

you know I was doing English I remember I had a girlfriend at a different union she was like oh I'm applying to work at EY I was like can you do that with an English teacher she was like yeah anyone I had no idea that I could have gone into so I then started doing all the psychometric tests I was like I'm gonna work at PricewaterhouseCoopers my parents like what are you on about you did I would I wouldn't it probably wouldn't have suited me but it just hadn't even occurred to me but it's that thing isn't it about suiting you I just hadn't even occurred to me that I would go and work in the city. I just didn't even know that that was an option for me. No, exactly.

And it was, it's interesting that I just, it is, I think knowledge is power. I think realising that actually, I was just saying to you guys earlier that actually I do want to earn a good living because I think as a woman as well, this other trope of you're a gold digger or you're greedy, whereas men who are rich are smart. And there's enough male gold diggers anyway. There's a men who are rich are smart and it's and there's enough male gold diggers anyway when it comes to women and money yeah oh yeah but actually we if you put more money especially back into the female economy it it will only have a positive impact on the way that things change because women do tend to redistribute more money back into the economy than than men and that has a positive kind of political repercussion but then it's also suited men hasn't, to also have it that way?

Yes. So, oh, we deal with the money. We get the top jobs in finance and the rest of it. You just stay over there, girls. You know, you're fine. You do the pretty things. You do the other things that we don't want to do. So, you know, yeah, it's not being helped.

But then there's so many other areas of society where we've also realised that. Yeah, and I think you're right. I think re we we narrativizing the way that we talk about finance because as you say finance is everything in it's everywhere so it's not just in these buildings that were sat in now it's actually i think one of the most my favorite things i remember someone saying to me is you vote with your wallet so the way that you pay has such a big impact on where that has that trickle down impact i think things like that is can be really empowering because it's not how much money you have but it's how you use it and everyone has the ability to spend in a way that they see fit whether that's investing or maybe supporting small businesses or whatever money money might not buy you happiness but it

certainly does get you a lot of access and I guess comfortability yeah and money is involved with everything I mean take some take some typically sort of inadvertent commerce female topics I know weddings or babies right now I've always been really keen to write about these topics but to throw in the financial angle and then people read about it and they don't even realize they're reading about money and finance but yet yet they go away going, oh, my God. Yeah, of course, I've just spent X on that, whatever. You know, just silly things like even say, you know, how much you end up spending on friends' weddings. That's extortionate amounts of money.

And I remember writing an article about this about 10, 15 years ago. And then sort of saying, well, you know what, all that money you're spending on that, look at that. If you'd invested that money instead, this is what it'd be worth now and I remember getting feedback saying god you know I'd never even considered there was a sort of a financial personal finance aspect to sort of lifestyle choices like that. It's almost like you're taxed for being feminine because it's so bloody expensive to meet the requirements of being a woman I I mean, like it's my sister's getting married next year and all of her friends got married and the amount of money she spends on the hen do's and outfits and bridesmaids dresses. And when you have like a bridesmaids dinner,

then the hen do, then the pre hen do night and the boys just have the stag do the night before or whatever. Yeah, but they probably spend enough anyway doing that. But it is, it is the irony. It's so true. It's like, it's such a spendy, I think basically we've got some very outdated traditions, which we still really enjoy, but they't really fit into the the new kind of more equal thing that we're looking for so you're right we do have to adapt and change in all of the areas to make it fit together because I think it's so interlinked but sometimes we cherry pick you know I want to do this but I also want this yeah and they won't necessarily meet in the middle no but then what it was also meaning when I was writing these articles though is also is that they'd like there if I said to you I was

writing a personal finance article you probably yawn and go right I'm not reading that if it was about I don't know having a budge having a celebrity budget having a celebrity wedding on your budget say and then giving all these tips on how to do it yeah that's all to do with money everything to do everything pretty much isn't it in a wedding is to do is money how much paying for the dress how much the catering costs how much honeymoon costs the rings everything costs money and you know what as a woman you've got to be really savvy and shrewd and know how to get the best deals haven't you that's all financial acumen and skill do you know I don't think we I think we underrate our abilities you know yeah it's like I wrote a piece one time about um sort of how to sort of get along with

a partner if you're not financially compatible right so like if one of you is a spender and one of you is a saver well actually perfect combination yeah because the saver is going to teach you say this is typically yeah exactly but it's always that way around isn't it as well so okay so typically we'll set the man up then as the yeah I don't know the saver here they can teach you how to save and they'll know how to do it and make it effortless blah blah blah and they'll have a focus on it but as a spender you are equally as financially astute and in fact come on you can offer probably even more here because somebody who's not used to spending money say they'll go and buy something.

They won't have a clue if it's the right price. It's been ripped off, best deals, blah, blah, blah. If you're used to sort of scouring and knowing what's what, you're going to be much better with your money. I'm sure there's like a comedy sketch that's really funny. And it's about how men go into a shop and they buy the most expensive suit on the rack. As quick as possible. And straight away. And whereas women will get, my mum, as you say, it's just made me realise I've never thought of her as financially savvy

but bloody hell she can take anything back from like five years ago she's got a refund probably spot a bargain a mile off she's amazing and also

can organise events so we'll be like oh this looks nice so I'll do it for you I could do that I don't know how she does she can do anything

that woman and that is because I think she's fundamentally had to do everything like my dad went to work and she did everything she cared for everyone

whether that was babies, grannies, whoever. And there you go as well. Women have been, not particularly in your mum's case, but always in other traditional scenarios too, handling the household finances. You know, the husband would give them a pot of money, go, here you go, love. If there's something over, you know, buy yourself something nice,

whatever, as a joke. But, you know, that's still financial acumen. But it's always just put down to, oh, I'm not an investment bank. Oh, I'm just a housewife. You know, it a joke. But, you know, that's still financial acumen, but it's always just put down to, oh, I'm not an investment bank. Oh, I'm just a housewife. You know, it's that, but there's no just, is there? Interestingly, thinking about couples and finances, do you have any advice on when should people share a bank account?

I always hear lots of conflicting information about whether or not you should, like, should you buy a house together? When is it good to kind of collaborate on your finances? Or is it always good to have your own pots? Well, it is tricky, isn't it? It comes down to personal preference. But I think a bit of both, I would say, personally.

I think you've got to, from word go, you've got to be open with each other about your finances. Because, you know, it seems that that's almost like the last thing we'll talk about. People are probably more happy to talk about their sex life than they are about what they earn or how much debt they've got. But say you're, you know, getting on really well, blah, blah, blah. It's all going well. You fancy moving in together.

Then it gets to the stage where you want to buy somewhere together. Now, you don't want to find out that Prince Charming suddenly has got debts up to his ears and, you know, some credit rating that's through the floor and basically you'll never have a cat's chance in hell of actually getting a mortgage with this guy that's not we I mean that's going to be that's a real romance killer if nothing else so that's not good so you need to be up front straight away you know I know it's probably not the most romantic of conversations but you know you need to know it's amazing how many women don't know how much their partner or husband earns. I think the other thing at the minute as well

is because of the increasing rent prices, especially in London, people are moving in together even sooner and then still not discussing it. And actually that can be really obviously so detrimental. And I agree, luckily my boyfriend and I do actually earn quite similarly. And I've been thinking about this. If we didn't, I don't think our relationship would work because we're able to go on the same holidays we can go out for food we want to go out for food yeah it causes stress and I hadn't really thought about

the fact that like for instance with some of my girlfriends who earn a bit less I won't suggest things or do you think it can make it quite stressful and I think in your mid-20s especially you go from being at uni where everyone's broke and from school where you've got pocket money to suddenly there's a really big array of different yeah you could be earning anything and especially as girlfriends you don't tend to if you earn too much no one wants to say to find it embarrassing if you're too little it's embarrassing and then everyone's going out for dinner spending four pounds on a meal and you're thinking shit i've got three pounds in my account and i can't and i think even just internally with your friends it's so important that you strip away that shame because

it is it that splitting the bill thing is always awkward because you know that someone's on less someone's more and someone's had a salad and then even on the smaller scale you know that's important I think to navigate it is definitely oh yeah so you I think you've got to be up front haven't you got to but you've got to be able to talk about money because if you can't then you've got lots of potential problems down the line. And then when it comes to how you handle your money, I would think you probably, if you want to share a bank account, which is, you know, fine. Maybe also keep your own separate one as well. You know, some people split their money so they'll have a joint bank account and they'll both pay in, say, a certain amount each. Or either the same amount exactly or else based on as a percentage of their overall income each if it's a different they're both on different salaries

you could do that or you could do a thing where you put all your money into a joint account and then siphoned some off yourself because that gives you your financial independence it also means that you have at least some element of retaining control financially of some part. So, you know, if you put all your money into, say, like a joint account, well, what if your partner goes out and blows a lot? Oh, yeah. And then you're left asking. Have you watched Dirty John on Netflix?

Yes. Oh, traumatising. I'm never giving money to anyone. What if you meet a guy like that? Exactly. And then they completely... Yeah, no. Yeah, so...

Now or never. I'm not having cash and handbags anywhere in my house no so you see it's just exactly it's just important I think to do it so yeah I've always always had a joint account but then I've always also kept some money separate yeah you know not to be sneaky with it it's not you know that you wouldn't know that I had the money there but it's just so that you know I don't want to have to always explain yeah why I've spent x amount on a lipstick or whatever the hell something girly you know and i think putting your oxygen mask on first it comes back to that same thing you are born initially on your own like you can look after yourself and not

feel like you've got to relinquish all of your self into relation because i think that's dangerous in any sense it's not just fine absolutely that's a good analogy yeah it's so true though because you've got to look it's again going back to looking after number one it's not selfish it's not devious or crafty it's just an essential you've got to do ironically it's seen as a masculine trait and yes we need to kind of like unravel yeah um and we talked a lot about now like how we talk about finance personally but i think another thing that women struggle with is in the workplace how are we asking for a raise or how do you ask for that different because i've got i remember i moved to london i was living with a guy from uni at the time and he'd been working in his

office for like three months asked for a raise and he got it and one of my girlfriends spent her job for like four years and we're like just ask she probably had i was gonna say did she ask i'm too scared to ask she did ask she got one in the end yes but you're right i think guys just they don't care either they're like okay i won't have one then because all the figures yeah they say why don't women get pay rises and it comes out always because women don't ask yeah because we don't do it i mean you've got to you've got to ask because if you don't ask you don't get right yeah and and where's the harm another thing i think you've got to um be good at sort of bit more self-promotion yeah and also singing your own singing you know your praises and all that you're sick not whatever you know explaining why you are right for the role, why you should get more money.

And also I've read somewhere recently, you should ask for a specific amount. Oh, really? Yeah. So you don't have to explain that, you know, this is because you want to go on holiday to wherever or pay off some debts or whatever. But it's just that they said that psychologically, if you're going to a negotiation, I think they'd done a study with somebody buying or selling something. So it was a bit of a different scenario. But they said the people who actually use specific sums were deemed more credible and seemed to be more sort of, oh, yeah, they professionally had sort of thought it through and therefore it was better.

So, yeah, so ask and know what you want, basically. I think I, in a funny way, I've actually become more empowered at that point. Because before I was with the management management I would have to pitch to people and I would work out how much it was going to cost me and I would then get a very I was very closely linked to what I was being paid whereas I think when people work in big industries and they look around at their peers and if they can't tell that anyone else has asked and also I think with women there's a statistic like women will only go and do something if they think they're 99% suitable for it. Whereas men will apply for a job if they've got like 60% of what they need.

And again, it's that risk taking. And I don't think it's that we all need to start being really over callous. But you're right. It is actually sitting back and recognizing where our strengths are and not feeling like it's an attractable bolster or whatever the gendered language is towards women who see themselves as they are. No, I mean, I've read a lot of this too and it does sort of seem that we have to be more careful though because like women are meant to talk about we in the workplace

rather than I, whereas men can get away with talking about I. Interesting. I think that might have come from Sheryl Sandberg in Lean In. Maybe. There was something along those lines. But also the fact that, because you've got to use more collaborative language as a woman, so you're not seen as too threatening in a way to commerce.

But I still think we can, you know, we can sort of still walk that line and sort of ask for more money and explain how we're worthwhile and not be scared to do it. Yeah, I think if you're looking after it in all areas, so that starts off with your private and like saving a bit and feeling really up to date and aware of your financing. The first thing is what I've had to learn to do it yeah I think if you're looking after in all areas so that starts off with your private and like saving a bit and feeling really up to date and aware of your financing the first thing

is what I've had to learn to look at your bank account yes look at what you're spending because things like Monzo and these like new apps that yeah they're really useful because it does break it down for you because I think the funny thing is the hardest part is actually just getting to know what you're spending what you're earning yes because once you know it gets easier and then eventually hopefully that'll drip feed and it'll end up that you will be in work and you will feel comfortable saying you know what actually I need yeah well it's easier isn't it to keep your head buried in the sand yeah and not face up to facts which is similar in relationships you know you could sort of like tend to not be honest about stuff perhaps because you don't even want to own it up yourself yeah you want to sort of keep quiet the fact that you've

got so much on credit cards or on loans but it's important to actually yeah get your head out of the sand and and also the other thing is I think as women we make excuses all the time as to why we can't and and that's that's something we also found out in this financial power of women report when we spoke to the sort of thousand women out of the thousand women thousand men we spoke to women would say all the time oh either I'm too busy or I just haven't got time to do it or oh I just don't understand it but it's like you've got to make time so things like these apps and all these other sort of tools that help give you these little nudges or just help make life easier I think really do sort of make it easier for women to get on top of their finances, understand them and not be afraid of them as well.

I think fundamentally, it's just knowing that it's nothing to be scared of. And it's not a man's world, you know, we're all in this together and you've got to harness that and it will just be empowering. And I think that it's re-narrativizing the way that we look at money.

Money isn't just for men. Money can't buy you happiness. But as I'm getting older, I'm starting to think actually, it's not because i'm cynical but because really and truly money you need there's definitely a threshold of money that if you're under that yes earning then you really will live a life that's more difficult so to try and protect yourself from that having kind of autonomy of your finances will be a really solid foundation absolutely and i think rather than you know and also if you are

unhappy with the powers that be or some of the structures that exist in order to subvert that you're going to have to change the way that that we act and the way that we interact with money and things yeah absolutely you know it's very very important to be financially stable to have financial control and also to to know that you've got financial support and you've got to provide that for yourself as well as you know expecting if you're in a you know in an employee role expecting your employer to put some money aside for you you've got to contribute to that as well so if you had to give a few tips to people who are just starting out what would be your top few tips number one if you're starting out perfect prime time,

let's get you while you're young and start saving immediately, whether it's £5, £10, £50 a month, whatever. Get it invested, get it saving and get it working for you because you're in an absolutely prime position. You are never, ever too young to start a pension or to start saving. In fact, the younger you are, the better. I've got a pension I started when I was 22, which I remember at the time, I just thought, what am I doing? I want that 50 pounds a month. Why on earth is it there?

And I've just, I left it. Didn't really, I stopped paying into it stupidly after about four years. But I had my pension statement through earlier this year. And I was like, oh, my God. You know, if only, because it's grown in 20 years to be something amazing. And it was peanuts to me. You know, £50 a month felt like a lot then.

But really in the scheme of things, because I felt like, oh, my God, it's so far away. Yeah. But hang on, that 20 years has just flown. I know. So, yeah, really. So if you can do that, and you know, there is that issue where if you're paying just the minimum that the government recommends into a pension right now, you still have that nearly 11% gap between men and women. So that proves again, if you pay in £35 extra a month, which I hope most people, you know, can set aside without feeling too much of a

sacrifice there, that can make the difference of bridging that gap and then when you retire you've got the same pot of money there potentially as your male counterpart put a bit more in you'll be even better off and you can be laughing all the way to the bank do you know it's so funny because you're right when you look at the big picture it does seem so scary but if you break it down that big but you'll get there very easily very quickly when you look back it's almost like when you've spent a bit too much or hindsight's an amazing thing so it's kind of like having that foresight now it's definitely that yeah oh well that's been amazing was there anything else that in your research that you particularly wanted to discuss or do you think we've um I think we've covered it

all there haven't we so it's basically yeah get invested save what you can invest what you can don't be scared of it because, you know, it's not scary. It's all doable. It's all manageable. And also don't think that, you know, tomorrow, don't keep putting off tomorrow and tomorrow forever because it gets there really quickly. And you want to know that you are financially independent now and you'll be financially stable going forwards. And then you've got financial security as you get older, matter you know what happens to you yeah amazing thank you so much thank you if anyone wants to look into research more is there anything else any articles that i can point people in the direction of um yeah on the website so if you go to fidelity.co.uk we've actually got a dedicated

women and money page there with lots of information for people lots of videos podcasts lots of stuff to help people out there. And yeah, I would say, you know, get up to speed with all this kind of stuff. Read it, enjoy it. It's not all boring. We talk a lot about sort of, you know, fun female type issues as well. You know, it's just about living your life as a woman

and handling your money as best you can. Amazing. Thank you so much. I've absolutely loved this. I literally want to go home and start saving now. Do it. Perfect. Thank you. Thanks for thanks for listening guys i'll see you soon bye We'll be right back. Winning in an exciting live dealer studio exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem?

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