Adulting - #41 Why Do Facts Deceive Us? with Mona Chalabi

Episode Date: September 22, 2019

Welcome back Podulters! We're kicking off season 5 with Mona Chalabi; data journalist for the Guardian US and all round stat lover. We discuss why data is important, why journalism can be prescriptive and misleading and how to make sure you don't take everything at face value. I hope you enjoy and as always please do rate, review and subscribe!Oenone Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.cas back to Season 5 of Adulting. This time, the question is why? And this week, I speak to Mona Shalabi, who is a data journalist and the data editor at the Guardian US. Why do facts deceive us? So we go into the nitty-gritty of how statistics can be quite

confusing, can be manipulated or biased and why it's really important that we try to use our analytical minds when reading information. I really hope that you enjoy the episode and let me know what you think afterwards. As always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye! Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. Today I am joined by Mona Shalabi. Perfect. Perfect. How are you doing? I mona shallaby perfect how are you doing i'm good thanks how are you really good thank you very pleased to have you here from america i was just saying to mona when i emailed her this morning and i got an email back going sorry i'm abroad and i went oh my god i've completely got this wrong and then i realized abroad for you is despite being a

londoner you're a yeah yeah so for people don't know, do you want to tell them a little bit about who you are and what you do? So I'm a data journalist. I live in New York and I also make illustrations. Well, what was you going to say? I was going to say, and you're on lots of shows.

I've seen you on The Fix. Oh, yeah. You can't really do that. And were you on something years ago? Because I feel like I've always known who you are. Oh, well, I've done a few different, like, TV things, I suppose. I made a four-part video series about vaginas that was on The Guardian. Amazing.

So maybe that. I've done, like, a few British TV shows. Like, I've done Frankie Boyle. I did Have I Got News For You once. I did The Election Night show on Channel 4. I remember that as well. That was petrifying. I can imagine.

I had absolutely nothing to say at the end of the night. Just kind of sat there in silence. Yeah, I don't know. I've done a few different things, yeah. And I guess now at the minute, one of the things I think you do so well is you're kind of making statistics cool. So your Instagram page is your own hand-drawn illustrations

of really interesting and fun facts and also explaining how to get through the kind of fake news barrier that we all experience especially on social media because people just say whatever they want to say and then unfortunately a lot of people will read it and take it as gospel because there's no no one monitoring what's being said yeah yeah i hope that like I think a big problem with journalism is that the model is kind of like, here are the facts. And if you're smart, you will believe these facts, right? And like, the model is kind of based on sources, it feels like. So it's like, I trust the Guardian, I don't trust the sun, I don't trust the mirror. So it's all about the source. And I think that that model is kind of changing a little bit, because now a lot more of our notion of trust is built on individuals, right, rather than organizations. So it's like, do I trust this one particular author? And if I haven't heard of the author, then it's kind of hard to navigate. Anyway, basically, I also think that model is like, not patronizing, but I also think it's not

quite, it kind of doesn't really acknowledge how smart our readers are and so to say to readers here are the facts and you can either believe me or not believe me feels really problematic so what I'm trying to do is to say these these are the facts kind of as I know them these are the things that I'm not really sure about and here's how I ended up here so trying to show as much as possible the process and in a way that's what's really exciting and easy about statistics and maths right because like with like when you were in school right I feel like people enjoyed maths at the point when they could understand all of the steps right so you want you enjoyed maths when you knew how to do long multiplication you saw exactly how you move over the little number and it carries over and blah blah blah blah or long

division and then you start to not like maths when you just don't get how you get to the answer it's just this is the answer and you don't understand the process anymore so if you if you do data journalism well you can say like these are the crime rates but these are the crime rates in these different areas but actually these areas are more populated so that's why there's more crime and these are the crime rates once you adjust for population so I've shown you all of my steps to get there and hopefully you've come on the journey with me and understood sorry weird rant anyway no it's not weird it's what's interesting is there also seems to be there's lack of bias with yours and it well

obviously there's always going to be some kind of bias in there but it's it's really letting the facts speak whereas unfortunately I think sometimes what happens with journalism is especially if someone isn't a data journalist they'll take a set of statistics and just fit them into their narrative to be whatever whether that's like sugar's going to give you cancer and because we live in this click-baity age of people just wanting to sell stories and we we need this almost like visceral reaction to something to read it people won't engage with something if it seems too fluffy they want like bang but unfortunately what happens is that data and that information is being read on a level where it's

like you've skewed that it doesn't do you know what I mean yeah and I think you're right I think the data itself is always quite messy and that's one of the reasons why I try to hand draw the illustrations because I'm trying to show you that actually the facts are messy the facts of like reality is messy it doesn't fit to any clear narrative and there's like complicated nuance there and I also think that by hand drawing it like it is really biased it does completely come from my perspective and by hand drawing it it's a reminder that like a real person did this it's not like when it's a computer generated graph I feel like people just feel like oh it's neutral it's like science it's objective it's perfect but still to get to a computer generated graph, I feel like people just feel like, oh, it's neutral. It's like science. It's objective. It's perfect.

But still, to get to the computer generated graph, a human has made all of these decisions about which points are interesting and important. But yeah, I still feel like, at the moment, it's funny that we're having this conversation because I actually feel kind of like a little bit frustrated, I suppose, in my career. And it feels a little bit like, I don't know, you do interviews like this where people are like oh the charts are great and I'm like but are they making a difference? I think you're reaching a different demographic a different audience because I think especially like millennials we actually do want to get understand how you got from A to B we're not satisfied with just being chucked out information because we've been told to question everything especially because of fake news and all of that kind of culture yeah so it means that having someone who can actually also we do understand the nuances so for instance like we now understand

how different intersections of race and gender and ability will impact numbers and how when if a newspaper does say use the statistic and they don't and they fail to acknowledge yeah but why is that like this i think we then feel a little bit of injustice where you are acting as kind of like a middle ground voice that says no no, look, I know that. Because I think a lot of us are more, maybe more, not well read, but we have more access to education, especially through the internet than we did before. So then when you see these blanket statements, we're like, but we know that that falls flat and doesn't add up. Yeah, no, that makes loads and loads of sense. And I think that nuance that breaks it down is really really important but another problem with data right is that most of the data that's collected kind of mirrors whatever society's

assumptions are right yeah so for example on every single survey or whatever we're still faced with questions like are you a man or a woman and so all of that limits what I can tell you because I can only ever really say you know um I don't know, like, these are wages and these are the wages, how they vary depending on whether you're a man or a woman. I can't tell you how those wages look if you're a gender non-conforming person or if you're a trans person because it's just not there in the data set. So that's another massive limitation in terms of what I do that I can add that little bit of, I can add nuance according to demographics and stuff like that. But even then, I'm only limited by what is actually in the data.

And if we're not pushing to collect data on the things that matter to us, do you know what I mean? Yeah, well, I just read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez, which is about the gender data gap. Oh, I really need to read that. It's mind-blowing. I literally, every page, I'm like, oh my God, my boyfriend, did you know? In Sweden, blah, blah, blah. Because you just, it's actually so shocking yeah but then the other interesting with the data is i completely agree like we do need data and

statistics do one thing but then you have other shows like um the great hack and stuff where it talks about big data and how dangerous that is and like i think we need everyone needs to have a better understanding of what i guess data is at ground level and then working up because i don't i think data seems scary like one of the quotes from that documentary was like data is worth more now than oil like it's the most valued commodity. So I think that's also partly because of people like me doing a bad job of explaining the differences between those two like I say I'm a data journalist but most of the time I'm actually dealing with statistics right which is slightly different so the kind of personal data that we're sharing with these corporations all the time

like often with a very very strange notion of consent is completely different to for example filling out a census form right and the government using that data to understand how to distribute public funds they're totally totally different and I think what's hard for me is that like i come from a place of like deep skepticism being unsure about how like you know how you feel about government especially when it's like a government that's in power like i'm in america and it's like a government that's in power who um is not one that i think gives a shit about my best interest whatsoever but at the same time the government the government people who are responsible for analyzing those data sets by and large they're civil servants in america in britain in in like most of the countries where people will be listening to this

i assume um they're civil servants who actually aren't politically partisan and the way that they're analyzing those data sets is generally like very, very neutral. And so those statistics I have much more faith in than a company who's publishing statistics that say nine in ten consumers or whatever. Right. Or even like all of that kind of public data, like the Cambridge Analytica stuff. It's motivated. It's data that's being analysed for a specific end, which is different generally to government data. And I know that makes me sound really naive, but it just is slightly different. No, it is different.

But as you're saying that, I was also thinking, I wonder if, like, say you consensually give your data, as in you fill out a form. Do you not think that that also might change your natural instinct? Because, you know, like, do you remember at school when you used to do that test, like, what am I going to be when I grow up? And I would literally make it say doctor.

I would, like, ask the questions and be like, I'm going to be a doctor. Not like that consciously, but pretty much on a level where I was like, well, I'm going to be caring. But it was calculated a bit in like a, I don't know, do you know what I mean? No, no, no, I totally know what you mean.

But now we're getting to two different kinds of surveys, right? So there's like surveys that are like polls and questionnaires, which are like, who do you plan on voting for? Which I've always been so so critical of like I watched the whole election play out in the in the US I watched all of these people have so much faith that Hillary Clinton would win based on surveys where people lied or people didn't answer or the people who answered weren't representative like I'm very very skeptical of those things but there's a difference between that and a census form that asks where do you live what race are you how old are you how much do you earn like I mean how much

do you earn question sure people might might fib but like why do you know what I mean there's just a difference between those two kinds of data sets so I think and I also think that to a certain extent people get that like you know that if it's a survey people lie but like I don't know I guess those things are more like objective yeah when it comes to um I don't know if you ever got this but people love to deny that there's a gender pay gap but I know that you've done quite a few like bits on this what can you give any like hard statistics on gender pay gap it's really interesting I don't have the numbers in front of me right this second just because I don't have my laptop on me. But I think that's a really, really good example of something that people push back on that ultimately comes from like either a misunderstanding of the way that the numbers work. Which when it's a misunderstanding like that, I also think it's the job of journalists to correct that misunderstanding.

So I'm not just putting on them. Or like a willful desire to like misunderstand those numbers so the thing that i get told most often when i publish these dates like the the gender pay gap is well men and women do different jobs this is inevitable because women are more likely to go into bad paid jobs and women take um time off to have kids all of this stuff to which my first answer is like well even if you are right don't you think the fact that women go into worse paid jobs is still a structural problem in society that actually needs to be fixed? Because why is it then that little girls aren't saying, oh, like, I want to go into this or, you know, why is it that society is still structured that women assume that they are more naturally inclined to do caregiving roles? Men assume they are less naturally inclined to it.

And why is it that society doesn't value caregiving roles enough to actually pay for those roles? First thing. So that's kind of meeting someone where they're at and assuming that they're right. Secondly, though, actually, no. These statistics I'm sharing with you, they control for how many hours a week people work. So it's even when men and women work the same number of hours per week, women earn less. Even when you take men and women that are in the same profession, in the same industry, women earn less. So like, yeah, even if like, do you know what I mean? Either way, you're wrong.

Yeah, totally. And then what are you going to respond to me? And then that's when it's really sad because the conversation then ends up going back to sources. And then people will be like, well, the starting point wasn't your sources wrong. The starting point was your calculations are wrong. And then when you say, no, no, no, my calculations are right, then they're like like well their starting point wasn't your sources wrong the starting point was your calculations are wrong and then when you say no no no my calculations are right then they're like well I don't trust the government numbers then well because they just don't want to admit their privilege um also I think that's another great thing that you're

doing is you're bringing stats to problems that people are really interested in whenever I heard data and statistics it would make me think of like looking at doing a mass way level which I didn't do but that was kind of like your entry level. And since then, if someone said data and statistics, I'm like, no thanks. But when you're talking about things like gender and you do discuss really interesting topics, especially when it comes to race and gender and all those things, that's kind of my remit. That's what I find really interesting, the social cultural stuff. And so I think bridging the gap on those conversations where it is like I mean how did you get into it

because I know that you work at the Guardian now but are you one of the only people that specialise in kind of what you do I don't really know about any other statisticians like you so it's like an industry called data journalism and it is relatively small there are some people over here that do it and there's people in the US that do it um and I got into it because when I left university I went to go and work for the International Organization for Migration. And we were finding out how many Iraqis had been forced from their homes as a result of the war. So I was doing loads of like statistical analysis on what Iraqis needed and where they were. But like Iraqis never got to see the data.

It was just shared with the international with like a few members of the international community in order to get money to fund the projects that we were doing. And I just became really, really concerned with like that lack of transparency like I like it when people comment underneath my Instagram post saying this is wrong like this is wrong based on like where I live or this is wrong based on like my personal experiences and I've got it wrong before like I really have and I think anyone who publishes information publicly will get it wrong it's part of the nature of the job and so anyway I just wanted to go more into like public information uh like sharing information in a more public way because I felt like you're more likely to get it right and it's also just more democratic so I went into journalism I started off at the Guardian in London and then I moved to

America to work for ESPN for a couple of years, which I hated. And then I went back to The Guardian, but in the US and now I'm freelance. Amazing. And so when you're at The Guardian, how does your, I do, because I actually do read The Guardian, but I'm not that good at reading newspapers. I get my information probably like a lot from my age, just from kind of pulling random articles from random things. So when I go to you, I go to your concentrated Instagram to read what you're up to. But with The Guardian, do you have free range on what you're writing about or like it's different from other papers in that well no that's me being biased to the Guardian it's not as kind of like toned as others actually I don't know about in the US I think we still do have a tone I think it's just harder to spot the

tone when it's one that is your own I think that's what it is yeah um so I have a weekly column there and I do have a lot of latitude to kind of write about different things and I think the way that I think about it when I'm trying to pick a subject is generally I'm looking at what's happening in the news and I'm trying to like give people context on what's happening so it's like let's say there'll be like an immigration raid in America I'm trying to say to them okay are things really worse now than they were before under Obama so like let's say there'll be like an immigration raid in America. I'm trying to say to them, okay, are things really worse now than they were before under Obama? So like, let's look at like historical trends or are things worse in this part of the country?

Are things worse in this part of the country? So looking at geographic trends, is there a specific community that's being targeted? So it's all about like, there's this big scary headline. How can we zoom out and like get the bigger context on it? So that's one way that I do things. And the other way that I do things is like my dms are always open and I'm so interested to hear what questions people have about their own personal lives because they will never be the only person that has that question and like you know that leads to all kinds of interesting things

that have got nothing to do with the news so a friend of mine was like really really struggling with contraception and was like all of it has such a major effect on me, particularly the pill. So I did an illustration about, like, what really are the side effects of the pill? And I actually feel like, sorry to rant, but, like, again, like, if you think about, like, medical packaging, that's a really good opportunity for better data visualization, right? Rather than this incredibly long list of side effects where you're just like i never read that it's so awful i never ever read it partly because i don't understand whether the thing that's at the bottom of the list is more likely than the thing that's at the top of the list and like yeah it's just really really hard to navigate so like the the way that i designed that illustration was

showing if you take the combined contraceptive pill, how much more likely are you to experience depression than someone who's not on the pill? How much more likely are you to experience like vaginal irritation? And it's like things that the doctor isn't necessarily going to tell you about, which also seems really messed up. It's just like, here's this list and go and figure it out for yourself. But even in terms of like gendered data information when it comes to things like contraception there is just hardly any research into what it actually does to women i spent the pill for years and i had to come off it because i realized it actually was making me feel like shit yeah and i can't be on anything now i hate it um but it's really interesting when

you actually look into how much like cumulative research there is on the impact of the pill compared to like something really mundane to do with men working in offices. Yeah. And the difference is the discrepancies are huge. Yeah. And when you're... Sorry, I blitzed. No, no, no. I was going to say something else. It is interesting then on the subjects that do get thoroughly researched

from a woman's perspective are fertility, right? So all of our understanding of how long our window is to have kids is based on so much research that's done on women's bodies to let us know that actually you probably only have till like 36 and then your chances really really drop off blah blah what do we really understand about men's bodies when it comes to reproduction very very little because so few studies have been done to understand that and so the public's understanding of men's fertility is that yeah you can probably still have a kid when you're 60

which like how accurate is that really it's based on a lot have a kid when you're 60, which, like, how accurate is that, really? It's based on a lot of bad science and a lot of, like, really terrible public anecdotes of, like, Mick Jagger or whatever, but those old men are impregnating very young women... I was just about to say, yeah. ..who are offsetting the fact that they have very old sperm. Yeah.

So, again, it's interesting, not just the things that don't get studied on women's bodies, but the things that get overly, overly which in a way really undermines what really emphasizes this idea that our role on this planet is just to make babies but that's why it's so important this is exactly what i want to get down to like with you it's that look at the nuance so that statistic which really knows may agree it's like the six-year-old man has a baby with a 20 year old obviously she's so fucking fertile that she can like house your really old sperm yeah um so that and then that you're right if you look at that for face value like oh well men are more fertile than women but actually you've got to look at all the other

combinations and i think this is what we've all got to get more savvy at is reading a headline and then going actually what's the flip side of this on both ends of the spectrum because otherwise we do go around walking around believing all of this on both ends of the spectrum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because otherwise we do go round walking around believing all of this bullshit scaremongering information. Yeah. Can you tell us, because that's my favourite thing, about the old men, young women, you do like a cycle. It's just the best.

I don't remember what was on the cycle. I was talking about how it's a vicious cycle and I think I said, and this is based on like a lot of efforts. So like, you know, I spent many years, well, whatever, it's also based on my own love life, basically, my swiping and my, like, going out on dates in America. And I think the vicious cycle is something like this. It's like heterosexual women say that men their own age are immature.

Yeah. So then they date older guys. And that means that men know they can date younger women they don't have to date women their own age which means that men don't have to act their own age which makes men immature which takes you back to the beginning of the cycle and then it just repeats and repeats and repeats and what's interesting is that having spoken about this i've heard from so many women who are like in their 40s in their 50s who are like men will not date me at all like they're not interested whatsoever men who have like you know yeah it's

just like it's so awful this idea of like our shelf life and how how horrific that is it just doesn't affect men in the same way it's even like an underlying fear I always think about this I love my boyfriend he's great and maybe we'll get married and if we did I'm like I wonder if he'll just leave me for like a 20 year old because you do like it's just about that which is really messed up it's really messed up but it's just a trajectory that you think might happen like if you don't take care of yourself where's your husband could get but it also makes me interrogate my own the way that all of those values have affected me in terms of my taste right so like I wrote an article this, and I mentioned in the article that, like, growing up to me, George Clooney was attractive, and Justin Bieber is, like, way too young for me.

So true. And I think, like, George Clooney, I forget what the numbers are, let's say George Clooney is, like, 25 years older than me, and Justin Bieber is, like, five years younger than me. Like, why is it that that is also, like, the sphere of my reference of, like, what's acceptable somehow?

And, yeah. And also, you'd feel predatory dating a guy five years younger than you right I would find that really like you want to mother him which is another conditioning thing that you've been told that you're more mothering yeah and I do think also that is another issue I think the reason one of the reasons why guys do immature are immature for longer is because they are mothered more and coddled more whereas girls are you just told you independently you have to fight for yourself kind of thing yeah yeah so it's all a self-fulfilling prophecy but it's also about it's not just about mothering i also think that just in general men are given more latitude to be selfish and like it's not i don't know there's not the same acceptability about being selfish and just looking out for yourself as a woman there was also funny enough i'm reading a book it's not like a ground but

it's nine perfect strangers by leanne moriarty you know the one who my sister told me about she said it's really good it is really good there's a bit in it interestingly which isn't the point of the book at all but they're talking about how girls from a very young age actually they're not um ruled by their emotions we're really controlled them we'll be like i'm happy i'm sad and this and that and you kind of you're allowed to feel them and express them whereas guys are very much like they feel an emotion and it takes because they can't they don't know what to do with it and in a funny way I wonder if that's part of the maturity as well because just to try and give men a bit of the um lack of privilege like because I guess they're not entitled as much to access those

emotions maybe it takes them a lot longer to understand who they are so it's quite and that made me think so I was like it's quite true actually because I'll quite happily be like oh my god I'm literally so hormonal I'm gonna cry and then I'm like I feel great and now I'm sad again yeah I've got no qualms doing that in front of anyone yeah and again this is to me why data is so interesting because you can be like having a disagreement with someone about this stuff like I was talking to someone who just believes that a lot of this stuff is much more down to nature than nurture and you can look at statistics and actually show like these are the points at which boys and girls have different beliefs about what they're capable of these are the points at

which boys and girls express themselves emotionally differently like you can literally look at crying frequency I remember I wrote a piece that was like looked at crying frequency and it's something like boys and girls have the exact same crying frequency up until a certain age. And then girls start, boys start, and it's not even that girls start crying more often, it's that boys just learn to stop crying. That's so fascinating. It's so sad. It's so sad as well. Have you done lots of statistics around gender?

Because I bet that's quite interesting at the minute in terms of like, when does gender dispor... I was listening to a podcast the other day, I can't believe they said this, I'm not going to say which one it is, but they often say things and I'm like you can't say that but basically they're implying that the reason that lots of young boys are trans or decide to transition is because the mum actually wanted a girl. This is not how it happens. It's so problematic as an interpretation. Right and so then they've put on to the boy that they should dress like... anyway I was was like, this is ridiculous because I think people...

I've watched lots of documentaries about people who have gender dysphoria and transition from a really young age. But I think people take a lot of issue with that because they think it's too young. Too young to know. Yeah. But then I would also say, again,

that whole lens of... So with all of these statistics, it's like, what is your research question, right? So if your research question here is at what point do people start to um identify with a gender that's different to the one that they were assigned at birth right yeah i think that is also problematic because it's also looking at it from like a binary no it's not about looking it's looking at it from the power structure that we already exist in right so we exist well i guess yeah from a binary perspective but isn't it just as interesting to ask at what point did I really

see myself as a woman it doesn't matter the fact that I was a woman assigned at birth like at what point did I not have gender dysphoria what point did I did I start to feel that like my gender was a big part of my identity so what if we looked at that research question not from the perspective of like because that's problematizing the idea of people who don't identify with a gender or who identify with a gender that's different to the one that they were assigned at birth. Like, it's still saying you're the other, you're the ones with the problem.

Whereas I just think it's also just as interesting, like at what point did I decide I was a girl? You're right, because it's me then going, this is the norm and when did you decide that you weren't that? And it's the same, and I have to think about this all the time with sexuality, like I never had to come out as straight. And I have to think about this all the time with sexuality.

Like, I never had to come out as straight. And I think now that we've, luckily, through me growing up, now sexuality to me is so, like, I don't even have to think about it. I wouldn't even question. And I try to, like, use non-gender pronouns when I ask about who people are dating because you just don't know. But I think with gender still, I'm still, like um learning and unlearning actually is probably the better term to use but it is really fascinating when people are like when did you come out about being not being straight like why is it always the other and why have we decided that's the other yeah FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling

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yeah yeah and again just like you said like interrogating at what point did i develop my own sexuality around yeah even if it's a straight sexuality at what point did i develop that and also really unpicking to what extent that was informed by societal norms. I don't know. Would I still be straight if I wasn't raised in a straight society? Who knows? I think that too. I actually think that everyone's bi now.

I just decided. I was like, I just think if you didn't have those structures, then I think it would be really different. But then I also guess how far back with your data do you go? Because I guess historically, if you go far far back enough like the ideology was completely different like pre-Victorian times we were living in a world that probably looks like what we're moving towards now in terms of some of the conversations we're having yeah well okay so part of the problem of going really really far back is that the data is even worse right so like you know you can go far back enough where women weren't even included in any questions so there's not even any of that kind of field of reference. And I think one of the things that data is really bad at is understanding why something is the way that it is.

So that's kind of why I find it interesting to like share the data and then let people have their own discussion. So if, quote unquote, like, I never really understand when people say quote unquote. I think it just means air quotes. I think, yeah. I think, yeah. I think whatever. Yeah. Anyway, if rates of people who identify, I'm going to say that again, sorry.

Too much jostling with my hands. If the rates of people who identify as gay and bisexual have gone up over the years, is it because of an increasing willingness and ability to admit that publicly on survey forms or is it about more people identifying that way truly because society has made it has made it okay to explore those feelings do you know what I mean like is it about admission or is it about exploration I think that question is one that comes up really frequently when it comes to mental health especially like in like in generation conversation so with my mum she's like oh I I just think no one had depression and I don't I don't think it's bad I think maybe people weren't speaking about it but

then it must be a mixture of a mixture of both and that's um in factfulness I can't remember his name Hans Rosling Hans Rosling yeah um he says something like um the fact that we're able to access this information even if it's awful, shows progress. So even like, I think I used Me Too before as an example, but like, Me Too might be horrendous, but the fact that we're talking about it shows that we've had some kind of progress. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So the fact that the information is there, which I guess is exactly your level of like, the statistics, this is the problem. I think the data data people get scared of the data whereas actually all it doesn't mean everything's worse it just means we know it's

happening yeah yeah yeah as long as we can also have like real conversations about the accuracy of that data in a way that like I think what frustrates me is again it's like either you dismiss the data or you accept it and I just want to have more conversations that are in that gray zone about like this is what it tells us this is what it doesn't tell us this is what we can be sure of you know like yeah i think that's with everything at the minute though because i find this this is a really nice space to talk about things and i don't care if i say things wrong if they're not pc because you're like learning and exploring unfortunately i think a lot of conversations nowadays are you're either this you're that you're left or you're right you're you've got and it it's a conversation closer

i think we need to move past this point of polarization because it's just completely jarring conversations around anything yeah and like with your data it is really interesting to look at but if someone's got preconceived ideas about what they want to think they won't even engage and like try to learn i think it's a weird time of um you have to know which side you're on and actually most people aren't even informed enough to know why they've chosen even sometimes i think why is it so awful like you know when someone's like oh my god they're right wing and you're like I've spoke to someone who's conservative for an hour and you wouldn't know until they tell you they're conservative and suddenly you hate them that idea is quite problematic I think yeah it is but I also get why like some of it just comes from like a survival instinct like I feel

like sometimes when I speak to people who have right wing views, particularly in America now, right? Because it's like everything has changed. And over here in the UK, right? We're no longer, and I say we, like, as someone who's like left of centre. Left. I'm just going to say left. I don't like left of centre. It sounds a bit like watery.

I'm left. We're no longer in power. So for people to describe, to espouse those views actually they are threatening me like it's genuinely threatening because if you're saying that like I don't know if you're saying that I don't know in in in America for example like non-white communities are being are under attack right now right like i'm an immigrant in america when someone's saying those things that are anti-immigrant they are in power so like i don't know i know what you mean like totally yeah and also you've got more intersections in terms of

race as well than me so maybe that was a point of privilege to say that i could speak to someone in a certain position and not feel that maybe i Maybe. I'm still trying to, I'm really, really still trying to figure out. It's just that I've had so many conversations with people about whether, I just think that after the election, my whole view as a journalist kind of shifted. And before the election, I was trying to convey facts to people who didn't necessarily agree with my political standpoint. So it used to frustrate me that The guardian only speaks to the guardian readers i'm like how am i going to reach people and now i don't really care about that as much i really don't i feel like my role is to inform people who are looking for information okay and if you are right

center and you don't really actually give a shit at all about finding out about levels of immigration understanding how much immigrants can contribute to the economy all of this stuff like I'm not gonna waste loads of my energy trying to convince you because it I think it's a bad use of my time I know what you mean because I feel like this a bit it's that emotional labor feeling of like when someone says not all men and you just think you know what I can't be bothered yeah I just don't how much work it takes how much emotional energy it it takes to get someone to understand. I feel like it's too much. Anyway.

But then what do you think about the issue of like echo chambers and just being in that same space and not realising. Like the other day, someone shared like an alt-right video on YouTube. And I genuinely don't even, I've never met a trans person. I've never seen anyone speak in the way they spoke yeah I was so shocked I actually just sat there for like 10 minutes I couldn't believe I'd watched something like feminism real racism real privilege but going on and I wanted to cry I was like it was so baffling to me but it just surprised me to realize how much of an echo chamber I exist in but I think those two things can go together right so I think actually echo chambers

can be incredibly important for organising political action, right? That's true. And that can be a very, very effective tool. But I also think listening to what the other side, if you like, to like paint things in quite a crude way, are doing is actually very important.

And you can still do that even within an echo chamber. And that's an important part of strategising and organising politically. There's a difference between listening to what they're saying and trying to convince them of something else right and so i'm still completely i have to listen to what what the far right is saying in america and over here not even the far right just the right i'm just not necessarily going to expend loads and loads of my energy trying to convince them that they're wrong i think that well that's the journalism you said that because you're going out and looking for

information was I often won't necessarily go out and look for it which is bad I agree because when you think so ardently about something it's a bit like the religion argument like you can't then be like no one else allowed to think something else you know it's quite interesting but you did I just wanted to share this was interesting just going back to it you did a statistic or you said something about how being a person of colour in America is a health risk and those kind of statistic things I find so interesting

and really pertinent because we go on about these stupid things about like sugar and red meat and all these conversations around food but we completely forget what the pinnacles of health really are I wonder if you could share

like a bit more about that yeah so that was like based on the us and it was about um i mean all of those things are food are actually very very important they're part of the reason why health risks are different for people of color versus white people in america and i'm sure to a large extent it also exists over here so people of color are more likely to live in poverty, which means that they're more likely to struggle to get access to fresh fruit and vegetables and healthy food. So that already affects their health. They're less likely to have access to good doctors, to medicine, to be able to afford health insurance, which also obviously affects their health when they do, in fact, get sick. What were the other factors?

It's also the way that pain is diagnosed so like one of the scariest statistics i've ever seen was a survey of junior doctors in in the us so i think it was like doctors who have finished their medical training and are just like about to start practicing and it asked them do you believe that black skin is thicker than white skin and something like a third of them said yes as in they literally literally thicker literally thicker and so there's this perception that like people of color are more physically resilient and so they can handle pain more and i hear it all the time even in like small conversations i'm having with people so like i was speaking to someone do you know what ayahuasca is yeah the drug yeah yeah she was saying that she did ayahuasca and

she was like you know it's funny like you know me and my friends did the same amount but obviously like she's black and like she and she's a little bit bigger than me and like nothing happened to her but me like and this is a white woman who's telling me this and she said it so casually in the thing it was just like i was with my black friend nothing happened to her but it was very much clearly implied to do that because it's this under this belief that like black bodies are somehow more resilient it's like that trope of strong independent black woman and it was always and everyone would say that even if you're white people used to go i'm a strong independent black it was just like part of that do you remember that kind of i don't remember that

oh my god maybe that was a british thing what was it like a song or something and then everyone was saying i'm a strong independent black woman people from like a song or something. And then everyone was saying, I'm a strong, independent black woman. Like white women would say it. Everyone would say it. But the black was almost like not, people didn't even see the race in it. It was just part of the sentence. It's weird.

I don't remember this at all. I only read, like a few years ago, it was like, oh my God, that's such a weird, that's so weird to say that. And I do think you're right. It's definitely true. And I've read it with what is it called oh

oh How to Slay in Your Lane by Yomi Adyoki and Elizabeth I can't remember her name now they wrote a book for the Black Girls Bible and they write a lot

about this way that as especially as black women you're viewed in a certain way and it makes you act that way and then you get that same kind of it's just layers of privilege

and it also affects your love life right to bring it full circle back to that earlier conversation. So, you know, it's difficult because you'll be having a conversation with someone about what your experiences are like dating as a woman of colour and, like, I had white friends be like to me, oh, but you're, like, you're, obviously they're people who love me so they're going to be like, oh, you're really, really pretty,

it must be easy for you. And I'm like, no. And you can see this, like, look on their face of, like, but they don people who love me so they're gonna be like oh you're really really pretty it must be easy for you and i'm like no and you can see this like look on their face of like but they don't agree with me they don't get it that it actually is harder for me so then you pull out this data set and the data set comes from okay cupid and it's based on like so so many people and it's like everyone signs up to the site most people say i'm willing to date anyone they check the boxes for anyone right but all of their behavior shows that by and large people still prefer to date within their own race and then there's a few exceptions of people who are like massively under massively discriminate against online basically and those people are um asian men and this is the this is the american definition of asian so it's like east asian so you know china um the philippines uh yeah east asian um asian women do very very well on online

dating black women do incredibly badly incredibly badly and basically the reason why i'm saying all of this is because again it comes down to notions of strength so it's like a asian as an entire race east asian is perceived as inherently feminine right which means that like men men go crazy for asian women it's called yellow fever the i'm obviously talking in massive broad brushstrokes but this is what the data is showing it's very fetishized it's very fetishized which massively's very fetishized, which massively affects Asian men. I've had British friends who would never, ever describe themselves as racist. Like, I would date anyone. I'm just not attracted to Chinese men. It's just not my thing.

And it's like, well, why is it not your thing? Like, interrogate that a little bit more. And then on blackness, yeah, black women do not do well on online dating sites because black, sorry sorry black as a race is perceived as inherently gendered and masculine so black men are perceived as too masculine in a way that's frightening and black women are perceived as masculine in a way that again in this heteronormative like you know oh god it's so interesting it's in you're right because when you put the numbers that people can't deny and the only people obviously deny are the people with privilege that don't want to access that yeah information yeah um coming back to the health

because i've just remembered something i saw on twitter i think yesterday and it was basically how the government had put out they're doing this new knife free campaign and have you seen they put it on chicken boxes in more no no no um chicken cottage so instead of plugging thousands of pounds into i don't know helping educate people who've maybe used knife or been involved in knife crime they've written on chicken boxes in the inside of the lid in certain areas. So they've basically targeted black areas. I'm assuming that's what it sounds like. First of all, you can see on the one hand where some probably white man has gone, oh, this socioeconomic demographic for people probably are more likely to use knives. So

they've probably what they've done is thinking they're using stats now i'm like thinking about it but that is literally so marginalizing and so offensive and oppressive like that isn't that yeah yeah it's actually really really interesting because i have fights it's like so i used to live in france and i have a few french friends and i have fights with them about the collection of data because in france there's a very different attitude to this stuff right and my French friend believes that like when you publish data in this way it also tells people this is who you are yes and this is how you will behave right so I'm sure there is some grounding of fact that certain like marginalized communities in these

areas are more likely to be affected by knife crime and so they put these chicken boxes in these areas but it also says imagine being like a nine-year-old kid and opening up that box and it's like, oh, this is who you are. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. To a certain extent or like, yeah, I don't know. It's just, even if it's not, just the way that it affects your identity to say this is who we think that you are yeah is so horrific it's awful

but the gross thing about it was you can see how they really think they're being so like woke there was a whole like story behind it and like each one and I was like oh my god this just shows how like again the a to b thing it's like how the hell have you got this answer and who are you talking to like who are your rooms that you're sitting in and going like let's talk about knife crime and things yeah because I growing up as a middle class private educated white girl would never freaking see that yeah and so how can we all live in this operate in the same world where it's so i don't know and as you say it just shows who the power structures are in government there isn't there hasn't been a check at any point to say this is a bad idea yeah and yeah yeah it's fascinating

these things go through and it's interesting because the one good thing about like social media because I don't know I mean how what your thoughts on social media I talk about all the time but I think it's really mixed like I think it's been really really good for my career and um I think I get a lot out of it but I also think it creates anxiety like it's so silly but I haven't posted anything in maybe like six days or whatever and I've been working on all of this other stuff and just stressed and tired and wanting to take a little bit of time off. And it's so funny, like, even as I want to narrate, like, I have been working. Like, even though I've been taking, like, I just really want to let you know and everyone who's listening, which is problematic.

But, yeah, like, I feel anxious about the fact that I haven't posted. And I'm like, after I get out of the studio, I want to really make sure that I try and draw something to make sure that I post something to make sure that I keep people interested in my Instagram account. Which is a lot of pressure. I do the same. And I'll also come on and be like, sorry, I haven't been on my stories about actually doing work, but I am doing stuff. But that's so ridiculous because I'm sure a few years ago, had you been online, it would have like insinuated that you weren't doing anything. Whereas now when I'm actually like working projects or like researching podcasts whatever I think shit I've got to tell people that I'm doing work because I think freelancing as well as an industry is something that people still

haven't got their teeth into or understand it as much and I think as a freelancer you have double worries about working and then end up burning out and then having to do what I think they think freelancers do which is like sleep all day or whatever once every couple of months when you just suddenly like die. But it also just makes you think about work that truly is not visible at all. Like at least you publish this podcast and people know or like,

you know, like, I don't know if you're like a stay at home mum or you work on a factory lines, like there's so much work that is just not visible that is so integral to our society. And it's like, how can you, how can we somehow make that more visible? Whatever, maybe that's a random thought.

No, I know what you mean. But yes, I'm always going to sound to that. I feel like I've been in America too long. And I like thinking weird ways that are always adjacent to the conversation that aren't very helpful. Anyway, that's a weird side note. What's your biggest difference of living in America? Like, do you... Oh, God, it's so hard.

Do you miss London a lot? I really, really do. I really do. It's funny, the last time I was here, I was just, like, hanging out with two friends and, like, they're babies. And I just, like, burst out crying. I was just like, why am I there? I really miss it.

And I think I'm there for work. I don't think my career I think I would really struggle with my career over here and it and then it's making me question how much a career matters and to what extent like how much money is enough money as well right because I always say to myself like I would really struggle over here and I know that I would make a lot less money over here but would I actually be poor I wouldn't actually be poor so like is it just greed ultimately I had this debate a lot of the time because I often think like especially coming from so much privilege I don't want to then like access so much money that I become like disenfranchised again from like conversations but then I think think at the same time, I've been doing loads of like,

I'm speaking to lots of people working in finance and stuff. And now I'm really motivated to make lots of money so I can feed back into the female economy. Because there's loads of statistics say that women who make money can actually do more with it. And we feed into it. It's actually a good thing. So I think it depends on how you're using that money. Obviously, if you're going to do a Kylie Jenner and fill your house with rose petals, then... She filled her house with rose petals.

Her boyfriend for her 22nd birthday filled her fuck-off house with rose petals. And everyone, it was so funny because she was like, oh my God.

And then on Instagram, everyone was like screenshotting me like, oh my God, I wish my boyfriend would do this for me. And then on Twitter, everyone was like,

do you know how much water, how much carbon, how much waste these petals are? So it was, yeah, mad. That is just ridiculous.

So I don't think unless you're making billions, i don't think it's greedy billions definitely not making millions uh but yeah i don't know how how much it's really interesting like i was i had a therapist at one point and i was saying how i worry so much about money and she was just like how much money do you need to have in your bank account to feel safe and i was like that's such a good question because it's just like how our notions of success are always just the next thing our notions of like making enough money are always just the next totally and I think it's really important to actually just set an end point and define it and say this is what I'm working towards so that you can even just I don't know just give yourself a bloody break this is I think this what next culture is so the time because I

say this all the time if I actually sat sit back and think about what I do each year I just thought oh my god that's more than I'd even planned to do but the minute I get that job or get that interview or whatever I'm like next thing yeah I don't even know I've done it you don't even give yourself a second to be like oh cool you can't enjoy it but I think that is also the freelancing because it's the uncertainty of like you got that lumpy salary where some months you might get loads and the next month you get none and then you don't even get another job and I totally agree it's really funny when it comes to money but I think also with women when you're speaking to therapists and like how much makes you comfortable women often want they don't view their money as their money it's like your money and then like what's

something happened to your mum or like your friend so that pot of money you don't tend to see it as like Mona's cash it'll be like emergency money family money yeah definitely so then you're always going to need more because there's always going to be an exponential amount of people that you could potentially need to like help with that money but can't you also just like again actually like calculate that like I could actually try and calculate how much it would cost to like look after a loved one in a care home for 10 years and you're such a pragmatist but like I could because otherwise then you just have to live with precarity I'm just going to live the rest of my life being like oh god I could lose all of this at any second that's a really messed up I don't know as someone who's analyzing data like full

time do you find that you are are looking do you do that do you dataize your life yes are you very very organized it's not about being organized it's about like looking for trends and patterns so like I have a spreadsheet for my love life stop where like when I was going on all of these dates like I you know you put in such an idea you put in and I just noticed like weird things. Like it's funny, the spreadsheet started off really, really simple. It was just like the date, like literally like the date of the date, the calendar date, the name of the person. And I was like, shit, I'm dating so many guys called John. Really? Yeah.

And even just from putting in the calendar date, I was like, this is so interesting. I would always go for dates on Monday nights and Tuesday nights and Thursdays and Wednesdays maybe too. Anyway, I would never ever go out for dates on Fridays and Saturdays. I didn't even notice I was doing it. But it's because I feel like if you have a bad date on a Friday night, it's kind of like a bit depressing. It's like I could have gone out with my friends or whatever. And it showed how much I was deprioritizing my love life because it was just be like, I'll fit you in for like half an hour for a drink.

Oh, that's so funny. On a Monday night between work and going to see a friend for dinner because I don't want to feel like I've lost any of my time. And then it's like a safety blanket around it as well. The biggest trend for me, which I found so interesting to track, because when I started tracking my periods and then I realized literally I am so down before my period and then when I'm ovulating whatever the bit is where you're really happy I now try and book in meetings around then try and organize stuff around

that time of the month because you're just your best self and you're glowing yeah so it's great that's a really interesting to do because I realized that I would every month be like what the fuck is going on and then it was only when I started period tracking I was like oh this cycle is very telling it's so funny I've had the IUD now for like four years and I just don't have any the marina marina marina um and I just I've completely I don't have periods anymore I've completely forgotten all of it and it's so bad I don't think it's bad I had the marina call but that even that impacted me the hormones and that even though it's really low because I had the copper core it fell out I've had so many core but even that impacted me the hormones and that even though it's really low because I had the copacol it fell out

I've heard so many horror stories and I was like this is definitely meant to be inside it just completely fell out I felt like I gave birth to something really small

honestly I felt it come out and I just whatsapped everyone I knew and was like look this is my coil anyways went back oh my god they were like

try the marina core it's smaller because the copacol they used to only give it to women who'd already had children but I was like really hate hormones that's nothing I literally honestly had it in and I was like crying for weeks Oh my God. Oh my God. They were like, try the Marineacol. It's smaller because the Copicol, they used to only give it to women who'd already had children. But I was like, really hate hormones.

That's nothing. I literally, honestly, had it and I was like crying for weeks. I just don't do well with hormones. Yeah. I've heard so, it's so funny again. Like, I just think if we knew our bodies better, we'd be able to better anticipate the way that those risks would affect us. I've heard horrible things. But luckily for me, it's just been amazing.

Yeah, that's so good. And it's really awful to say. This is so awful to admit. I'm like ashamed of it. But I feel more stable emotionally. And it makes you feel masculine in a way that feels powerful. Because you know that you've got control over your... It's not control over it. It's like they're not even there really.

Like I don't feel as... But I actually think it's the opposite of powerful powerful and i actually think that our emotions make us powerful i agree and it's a very messed up and also like you know it feels like i'm wearing a white um jumpsuit right now and i always wear white and i never give it a second thought about leaking but also like we should live in a world where like if a woman leaks who gives a shit you know the weirdest thing is and i think it must be subconscious but whenever i'm doing my period i want to wear white and i think it must be because my brain's suddenly probably in the back of my mind it's like you can't wear white because you're about to come on and i'll literally

go to put white trousers on and then i'll think why and i never want to wear them any other time so it must be my brain making all those links and then i make the wrong decision i'm like white jeans today so funny but i completely agree because I always get worried about I've only ever leaked once but luckily I was wearing gym kit and you couldn't really tell but that is just one of the most ridiculous things yeah it really is and the fact that um men when they did the research into the male pill the reason why they didn't go ahead with doing it a few years ago was because there was side effects and they men could end up depressed yeah like all women who take the pill with so many other bad things. Okay, right.

I think we've been chatting for ages. Is there anything else, finally, that you found really interesting that you wanted to bring up or chat about? I don't know. You know what? I wish it would have been good to have, like, I should have asked you before to have tried to get some, like, listener questions or something. Oh, yeah, that's true. To have tried to answer some funny questions with statistics basically just like if anyone wants to um ask me any questions i'm always interested in hearing the questions that people are curious about um in terms of data and i'll do my best to

try and answer so if people want to find you online you are mona shallaby m-o-n-a-c-h-a-l-a-b-i very well done yeah same. Same on Twitter. And then have you got anywhere else that people can find you? Yeah, but it's fine. That's plenty. You sure? Yeah. Okay, cool.

Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, guys. Bye. We'll be right back. Seventh best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily Jackpots. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600.

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