Adulting - #43 Why University Isn't Always The Answer with Jordan Schwarzenberger

Episode Date: October 6, 2019

Hi Podulters, I hope you're well :) This week I speak to the wonderful Jordan Schwarzenberger about why you're never too young to start and why the conventional path isn't always for everyone. Jordan started at LadBible, then Vice and now YM&U - a pretty impressive CV for someone who is just 22! I hope you enjoy the episode, please do rate review and subscribe :) Oenone Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hey, poddlters. I hope you're doing really well. Today's episode is really exciting, I think. And it kind of challenged me a little bit because it's with Jordan Schwarzenberger he is 22 years old he worked at Vice from 17 then Lad Bible from 19 or 20 I think and now he works at YMU which is one of the world's biggest talent agencies and a lot of our conversation is talking about why you're never too young to get started but I'm actually changing the episode title to why you why do you not need to go to university because actually our conversation ends up centering around that and it's something which

I found initially quite interesting as obviously I'm an ex-university student or graduate as people normally call us and I guess I'd never really entertained this rhetoric too much because it is slightly affronting anyway Anyway, I think you could learn loads from Jordan. I certainly have in the only two times that I've met him. So I hope you really do enjoy it. And as always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye. Hi guys, and welcome to Adulting. This week week I'm joined by Jordan Schwarzenberger. Hello. How are you?

I'm very well, thank you. How are you? Good, thank you. Did I say that correctly? You said that correctly. It was a very cool name. You nailed it and not everyone does, so that was great. Oh, thank you so much. I do have a bit of practice with difficult names. It's all good. You look at us, it's fine. Yeah, I know I did before. I should do a tiny one.

Okay, so do you want to tell everyone a little bit about who you are what you've done etc yeah so um so yeah my name is Jordan um and I currently am the chief business development officer at YMU group which is formerly known as James Grant um which is kind of the biggest talent management company for elite clients in sport music drama entertainment um in the UK and Europe and also in America before that that, I had my own business called Roundabout, which was like a Gen Z youth marketing company because at the time I was 20. Now I'm 22. So I was at a point where I'd worked at, well, previously before then, I'd worked at Vice in their creative agency straight out of school and then Lab Bible, in which I kind of went

over there to help build their kind of agency from scratch and replicate the Vice model. So I'd had all this experience in the industry and for me it was like how can I bottle that and turn it into a product which is where Roundabout came about um as yeah this Gen Z the first kind of Gen Z marketing agency in the UK and from there James Grant and that's where I am now. So age what age did you start going into the working world? I was 17 that's crazy yeah officially like I said well when I was at vice I was 17 because it was um I mean it's funny so basically I was um I was at school and I'd done all of my applications for uni it was that thing like your kind of final year everyone's going I'm gonna go to King's I'm gonna go to UCL I'm gonna go to Leeds or Birmingham

whatever and something never quite sat right with me about that and I don't know what it was but there was like an instinct that was telling me all right find something else find something else find something else don't feel like you have to go down that uni kind of road just because everyone else is doing it yeah um and so what I did is I looked online and I thought okay what companies out there might I want to work for what companies do I look at and say okay that they're doing amazing work and I want to be a part of it vice was like top of my list. It must have been like 2014, 15. And they were obviously killing it at the time.

I think a little bit less so now, but they were killing it at the time. So I emailed everyone at Vice that I could find their emails for. It must have been about 20 people. And I put them all in an email and said, like, my name's Jordan. This is who I am. Can I come and do some work experience with you? And then to my surprise, I just thought, right, if I scatter to 20 people at least one will say yeah two people said yes which was great and I ended up going in to meet a woman called Amelia Abraham who left to then go go to Refinery29 she's been

doing amazing stuff in the industry but she was like yeah cool let me introduce you to a guy called Ian Richardson who works in the creative agency and yeah you guys take it from there so I was all right cool great you've just come in coming for a coffee and that's led to me meeting Ian then I met Ian we got on really well and he was like yeah just come in and spend your summer here if you want do what you want to do so I was like awesome went to Glastonbury that week turned 18 on the Sunday on the Saturday even and then started my first week um the week after Glastonbury 2015 um yeah do you know what's so incredible about that is I think all of us

even applying for like a shop in a job in River Island or something part-time you always feel like I don't have enough experience or no one's gonna be interested in me because I'm not gonna have the ability to get out there but you when you applied I imagine that your CV wasn't rammed with experience or had you done stuff I'd done a few bit I mean I think what was great about you know growing up in my teen years so to speak and what I was doing at my school was they gave the experience or had you done stuff I'd done a few bit I mean I think what was great about you know growing up in my teen years so to speak and what I was doing at my school was they gave the school gave me such an amazing freedom to try stuff do projects use the resources so I did about three or four like little ventures like I made music I had my music phase I was like creating music and

rapping and doing all that sort of stuff but I was like 13 14 which was just awful but hilarious um and you know after that I had a film magazine called Lost VHS which I ran which sort of you know I was really big into I had a film phase I went to film and and you know we managed to get screenings I pulled in a few other friends who kind of wouldn't film nerds as well and we ran a blog for a while and then I started a clothing company called Black Mountain Clothing because Schwarzenberger means man of the black mountain so I thought okay that could be kind of a cool thing ran that for a bit and so I'd done these projects which all were based around brand building was the theme so then when I when I was 17 it was okay do I go to uni straight and I did end up going to uni

but I mean I could say about that in a minute but um you know what do I do I knew that vice was great at the brand building side of things and they had the idea of aesthetic and you know how to build a cool brand is the vice dna in a sense so how did you get that initiative when you're at school do you think you've just always been this kind of creative person because I think I was very much as much as I am and now as I'm getting older I've realized that I have the resources and like the mind to do things but I was very scared to do things outside of the box because I very much felt like there's only one path to take and if I strayed too far from that like I was going to ruin my whole life completely and and you know I mean the amount of people who have I think that's

probably the most common experience that the young people feel is this sense of like okay well if I don't do what I've been told I need to do if I don't do the sort of straight and narrow then I'm screwed and that life's going to be a failure and I think for me what was you know I had a bit of that I mean as I still end up going to uni even though I went from I went for 12 weeks dropped out record time lasted a semester at King's and it was the worst experience so I hated it every minute of it but I feel like even me going was a sign that there was still a part of me that wanted to kind of had to conform a little bit or I would have just said you know screw it I'm gonna go for it um and yeah I feel like for me I've always had I guess the proclivity to try stuff and go for it

and and you know for whatever reasons that that might be I'm not 100% but I've always gone for stuff and if I had an idea I'm like right how do I make it happen like my clothing company I remember I was sitting at home um talking to my dad about okay what business can I start I want to start something and thought okay let me I remember one one time it was like okay let me look on Alibaba and see if I can drop ship argan oil because argan oil is a really good product and then from there it's back into like right let me look on Alibaba and see if I can drop ship argan oil because argan oil is a really good product. And then from there it spanned into like, right, let me start a clothing company and do t-shirts. Because a friend of mine, Adam Warren, was running an amazing company called Alcatraz Beach Club at my school.

So I was like, okay, really inspired by that. Let me try something. And then, you know, ordered the products in. Just made something happen. I feel like I've always had that thing. But still a part of me, 100%, did think I still needed to conform and do that uni thing I actually want to ask you a little bit more about uni because I think it's really important first of all I think a lot of people don't like university I think it's glorified to be like everyone's like your uni years are the best years of your life but so many people find it really

alienating they feel homesick what was it for you specifically that you just felt like this wasn't for you well I think it was you know I was I was living at home so I was in London I didn't do the Manchester Leeds Bristol vibe um I didn't go out and I think I'm glad I'm so glad that I didn't because I think if I had I would have got wrapped up in a lot of the lifestyle challenges the people who go to those unis face and me being somebody that had loads of it was sociable and like to go out and like to do stuff being at those in those environments would have been really toxic and I'm glad I didn't because um he had London uni I don't know did you go to London no I went to Cardiff but yeah London's

not like a uni they're very tame yeah and there's a lot of foreign students who like to do their work and go home so you don't have that same kind of party energy that you do up in some of the others um and yeah I you know, I think my uni experience was awful because it was the juxtaposition of being at Vice every Friday while I was at uni. So I'd worked there all summer, started at uni in September. But then I was at Vice, I was working there every Friday while I was at uni, doing my uni course four days of the week

and then doing Vice on the Friday. And there was something that really didn't click right. My degree was called Digital Culture, of all things. And it didn't click right about being at uni, studying so-called digital culture, and then actually working in it on the Friday and seeing just how much better, how much more in touch, obviously, Vice would be than some uni lecturers who, you know,

they tried, but the reality is they hadn't worked in the industry for however many years. They didn't really understand the culture. So that juxtaposition after 12 weeks just became too glaringly not right for me. I think you're so right. And I kind of spoke about this to you when we first met about how I'd love to go and study subjects. Like I'd love to go and study anthropology. But what's the point of doing a degree when, first of all, especially with sciences and things,

all the information is like seven years old because it takes seven years, I think, to get through to be like legislatively viable to teach and i think we all get stuck into this mindset that you have to go through a formal version of education to achieve this height but what i find really impressive and really um inspiring about you is that you're 22 and you're in a really respectable it's not just that you're working with these big companies you're properly respected and given a lot of responsibility despite the fact that you haven't got a master's or a phd or whatever we associate with kind of like normal respectable do you know what i mean yeah completely not that you're not respectful i mean sometimes but no i appreciate

that i think um i think you're right i think it's the biggest lie people say to to anyone who wants to get into the creative industries is that they need a degree and I mean I must be responsible for about five to six people and convincing them that uni's not right and then dropping out so their parents will probably not be the happiest at me but I think I've because of my experience I've I've built a very very strong argument in my head that is unshakable that uni is a massive waste of time for the vast majority of people and the two things that you need to go to uni really are time and money and most people don't have the money and most people definitely don't have the time and I think a lot

of people when they come out of uni or they are kind of in their second third years they realize shit I don't have any I don't have the time and I think you know the amount of friends I have are in massive amounts of debt the amount of friends I have who have come out and they're in a worse position than when they than when they started and before they started it's staggering and I think what that does to people on a mental health level as much as anything else is pretty intense because it's it's like you've been built up and you've been told okay go to uni you'll be fine go to uni you'll be fine get your degree you'll be fine get a 2.1 you'll be all right and you come out at the end and you're not and you can't get a job and you're back at home and your parents are having a go at you because you know why don't you get a job but you know

you can't and actually it's really difficult when you're 23 24 years old and you're struggling to make it even though everyone's told you that doing what you would have done yeah will get you to a point where you can make it and it's almost this weird like resentment betrayal feeling I think I sense and a lot of people who've gone through that process and come out the other side and just feel like look I've been lied to by my parents by my society by my uni into thinking that I'll be okay especially in the creative industry I think it's different if you're going to be a doctor you're going to be a lot and you need to go through that road but for the vast majority of people that I know anyway who want to get into creative subjects or get into you know media get into social get into

tv you know they go through this road and they don't end up where they want where they believe that they should have ended up and i think that's a really tough thing for people to reconcile i think you're completely right and i think one of the reasons is technology advances so quickly that it advances at a much quicker pace than any kind of legislation can keep up with so for as long as that's happening education like formal education is always going to stand really far behind that and i think it's interesting for me to listen to you because I can't remember what I've said on this podcast but I definitely was like I loved my degree I feel like I learned loads in an analytical sense in some ways but then I'm looking back and thinking I'm a middle class

privately educated person who probably could have had the time like the way we looked at uni and my friends when I was younger was kind of like oh it gives you a bit more time to choose was actually as you say for most people it's not it's not like a chill like oh we're just gonna have another few years to figure what I'm gonna do I need to actually get down and and be earning good money by the time I'm 25 because it's people don't have like families that they can necessarily live with or like do you know what I mean it's a complete different conversation 100% I feel like it's a middle-class luxury yeah the experience and you know being from like Crouch End in North London and being from quite a middle-class background and having friends

who are all from from that world I think they had the privilege to be able to go and waste four years when most people across the country don't have that time and you know I think they almost become entitled as a result because they feel like hold on a minute you know I've spent my four years doing this and I should be at a point in which they clearly aren't. And I think, as I said, it kind of creates a really weird sense of anxiety and misplacement, but I definitely think it's a middle class luxury and a privilege. And you know what? The other thing, and this is what parents have no concept of, is what really, really goes on at unis. And having, you know, been at, while I was at Lab Bible, having friends in first year, in first year second year third year having a little bit of money being able to travel around the country I did it and I did it really intensely for like two years and every weekend I was at a different

uni visiting different groups of friends and the stuff that goes on you know the drugs the alcohol the depression the anxiety all the stuff which parents have zero concept of would be enough to make any parent I believe say to their kids you, there's no way you're going to university. Yeah, I think because, I think especially because of British culture, like everything is so repressed. So like there's a lot of shame around talking about sex. There's no one, no one's parents. Well, you might have parents talk about drugs. I would definitely talk to my kids about drugs now.

But no one really talks about alcohol. We drink really late. I just think because of that, then when you get shoved into union you're free everyone goes absolutely wild and as you say like it is a breeding ground of of course we're going to get mental health issues like that first year of uni is designed it's all but it's almost like i think they do know it's almost like they go okay have a year fuck around and then why doesn't count to your final result right yeah but that's when you when you think about it it is weird like it would be a much better society if we kind of had a much more relaxed approach to everything and it was yeah it's really interesting looking like that I hadn't really thought about that well

I just think it's you know as most people I think who if you've gone to if you've gone to Leeds gone to Manchester if you've gone to Bristol if you've gone to Nottingham if you've gone to Sheffield if you've gone to Newcastle you can list them all they have a similar culture and the culture is built around going out getting smashed doing loads of drugs yeah and getting fucked up and then you know missing your lectures in the morning and so okay you know it's it's a really awful culture that is consistent and I think people go there really and I think you know what if you're 18 and you want to be honest with yourself you have the time you're let's say right I'm not too fussed about career about my career I don't really want to get into this stuff

and you also have the money to do it. And you're willing to either get into debt or you've got parents who are bankrolling you. And you're like, you know what? I just want to go and have fun for the next three, four years and get pissed and meet loads of people and have a good time. Fine, but at least be honest about it. The problem is a lot of people go and I fail to uni and they're not honest about why they're there.

And I try and say, when I've got younger people in a position where people sometimes come to me for advice and like, you know, what should I do? And I try and urge them to really think about that. Is it worth the four years or the three years to go and get smashed for that time and have fun? Is it worth it? Even as you're saying this, I almost bet people want to go,

no, no, no. But actually, like now you said it, I do agree. I think your work ethic doesn't kick in until much later. I don't think uni, uni didn't teach me to get up early and work hard. Being freelance did. Being freelance has taught me like, you've got to get up, go out and get that money,

you're not relying on anyone. Going to uni was, as you say, being hungover, waking up at 11, not going to lectures because it was raining, still wanted to go outside,

ordering food to my flat, asking my parents for money, pretending it was for something else and spending it on pizza. Like that was literally my uni experience and it wasn't until

I moved to London and suddenly I had the responsibility of being like, fuck, I've really got to pull my shit together, that that came in. And I can imagine that a lot of people will be the same as me, like listening to you and thinking, no, no, no. But actually, now you've said it, I do completely agree. And I also do think you're right. It keeps you in an adolescence for longer. 100%.

And in some ways, I guess that's good because you don't want to miss out on these things. But I do think it takes away that sense of responsibility. It lets you float for a little bit, which is why I think this podcast exists because especially people who graduated, you come out of uni, you're 23, 24, half a year old, and you're like, what the fuck is this? Because you've been in this limbo state

where you're not really an adult and you don't really have any responsibility. But you're also told that you are an adult and you do. And that's the thing. When people say, oh, go to uni because it teaches you independence, teaches you how to live on your own. And I think some of that's true. And I don't want to completely shit on the uni experience,

but I just know for so many people that I know personally, they come out of uni less developed from a maturity level and less adulted, if you will will then if they'd have 100% if they'd have started work before and got straight into it so what would you say to people who might argue back and go oh no but you were able to get this because you had whatever not that you had it but I think a lot of people's attitude is things are down to luck even I used to say this about myself and then I look back and go actually no I worked for that that wasn't really luck but I think a lot of people go oh you're a one in a million or there's not

many people who would have the motivation do you think that is there is obviously people that are more adept to it or do you think that if we change our attitudes towards the way that we look at work and like it sounds like you really enjoy your job and you have a lot of autonomy within it which means that you don't look at your career in the same way that people look at a nine to five it's like a your luck part of your life you know what I but I think I that hasn't always been the case and you know what it for a lot of my careers you know being at Labweb or being at Vice or even running my own you know I haven't always been in a position which has been like oh this is the funnest thing in the world I think I've been lucky enough to be

in an environment that's that is fun and it's great and it's media it's creative I've worked with amazing brands and had loads of fun doing it um but the reality is it hasn't always been that way and I've got to the position now of having gone through that starting point where you are the intern well you know I was working for free for six weeks which I know is a luxury and a privilege to be able to do because I can live with my parents but I worked free for six for my whole summer and I was there from nine o'clock till like you know seven eight o'clock in the evening I was really working hard for it and that led to them being you know considered for an internship and then being considered for a full-time role and I think one thing that I've also noticed with a lot of people that that I

know personally is is there's almost this this thing of can I jump can I jump the sort of the process can I get a head start and you know for my gut there isn't a head start which is why for me I think the younger you can start the better it is because the younger you are you're more you're more used to school you're more used to being in an environment where you can you can take a nine to five you can go through those sort of early stages to then be a point whereby 24 25 you have a lot more autonomy and you're in a position of of power or some kind of sort of legitimacy because you've been running it and you've been doing stuff for the last five years I think you're completely right and actually you're just making me have a whole like 180

because I'm thinking about uni and the contact hours that I had I think I had like nine hours a week and seven you're paying however much it was what was it nine grand a term I think I worked out yeah it was like it was it's nine grand a year it was three grand a term it was 40 pounds a session that's when I worked it was like I remember it because it was near when I was like dropping out and I just thought to myself I was like let me work it out see how much I'm actually paying for you know the seminars and lectures and it was 40 pounds a session near when I was dropping out and I just thought to myself, I was like, let me work it out, see how much I'm actually paying for the seminars and lectures. And it was £40 a session, which when I think about it,

is a lot of money. And it's like, what would I have done if I had taken all that money? Wait, if you had seven contact hours a week, that was £40? There were seven or nine contact hours that I had. It must cost more than that, surely. What's that, £280 a week, £250?

I'm sure it would be more than that, wouldn't it? Maybe. I can't do maths in my head. Whatever I worked out, it was around £40, £250? I'm sure it would be more than that, wouldn't it? Maybe. I can't do the maths in my head. Whatever I worked out, it was around £40, I think, per session. But even if it's more,

that's even worse, right? And I worked this out obviously about four or five years ago. But it was still a lot and it was too much and that was the point. It was when I broke it down,

I was like, okay, this is how much I'm paying per week and for the value that I was getting and the quality of what I was receiving from the lecturers

and the team there, it was not worth the money in the slightest. Hold on a minute. What if I could have put that money into, you know, investing in a company or start my own business or, you know, learning something else on the side? You know, this is where I think we're talking about, I guess, what's the future for all of this and how the next generation going to be and being someone who's 22 and seeing how some of the younger kids coming up. I think the shift is going to happen to the point where university will for a lot of careers become redundant I think people are getting that because people don't have that luxury anymore to say I have the time if you think about the skill sets that some of the kids are growing up with they're you know they can code at 10 years old they you know have intricate knowledge and

expertise around a number of industries whether it's gaming whether it's film whatever it is you know they've spent their lives on the internet and as a result they've had access to endless amounts of information and resource they're learning and becoming skilled up younger and younger which is what I think I had the benefit of doing from starting my clothing company whatever and I think that's happening more and more more kids are going into apprenticeships which is amazing because you start off and you're just in there straight away which is 100% the right thing to do and more kids are starting their own businesses. I mean, the amount of kids who, you know,

come out with their own products, are designing their own games, are, you know, making their own clothing companies and, you know, being entrepreneurs. I think that, you know, the reality that they haven't got the time, but they also have the skills early that a lot of companies are looking for in people, whether that is social media expertise or, you know, coding, whatever it is. They can just go and do it themselves. It so incredible and i guess like with you it's so

you're so right as well and i was just thinking about how i mean we spoke about this before as well but just the way that education works is it doesn't it just doesn't fit into society anymore which is kind of why i set up this podcast because all the things i need to know about whether that's like systemic racism or feminism i didn't learn i did learn a bit about feminism at uni, but useful tools to help me be a good member of society were not taught to me at university. And really now, because of the internet, you don't need the practical skills that we used to need. Well, where did you find out all that stuff?

Probably from YouTube, probably from blogs, probably from Twitter or from other sources, but it was probably on the internet. The internet has killed university. Because if you think about it, like what can you find out at university that you can't find out online? And when you were working at Loud Bible and Vice and stuff,

was everyone working that kind of under 30 or quite young? No, I think, you know, Vice was, I'd say the average age was about 28, I'd say. Maybe 27. Quite, you know, as an average. I think I was the youngest at Vice when I was there. Yeah, I was 17 the youngest. Lad was the youngest as well.

Can I ask you about Lad Bible? Of course you can. Was it very laddy? Was it very laddy? You know what? I think at the start, yeah. Yeah. I think the brief for us was to change that yeah which I

think we so you were on that that was your mission part of yeah I mean so so I was brought in um with Ian so Ian came in as the MD of the of the branded content agency there called Joyride which we later called it um and then you know over the over the next sort of six months to a year what we were trying to do was to change that culture, both inside but also, you know, from a sort of abstract consumer-facing level, can we make LabBible inclusive? Can we make LabBible progressive? Because if you think about it,

and this was always a thing for me whenever I've been sort of asked about, you know, it's pretty shitty past. And I always said LabBible had a fucking awful history and they did terrible stuff in the bum day, mum days, in the teacher, mum days and the teacher whatever shit they used to do was awful but when you've got a base of 30 million people on your platform that's real power and can use that for good was always the thing that I thought so when

we were there like it was you know how do we make lads the idea of a lad inclusive to represent anyone like who what does a lad stand for it's somebody who is a sort of everyday hero somebody who makes positive change someone who wants to drive kind of your positivity happiness like support their friends like that makes a lad in a sense you can you can look at it like that and can we turn can we flip that bible on its head and make it so that lad is a positive and not a negative and that was led a lot of that by steven my who is a good friend of mine who then went on to sort of be the cmo boiler and he was formerly id he was brought ID. He was brought in to do that, and he did an amazing job. And even things like, you know, Trash Isles, which is an amazing campaign that we ran.

It was all about raising awareness for the crazy amounts of plastic in the ocean. Basically, there's a massive land of plastic that sits in the ocean that is bigger than some countries. Oh, my God. And so what we did, and this was all led by Stephen, it was an amazing campaign. What we did was we petitioned the UN to actually get it labeled as a country called the trash house um and to then be able to then lobby against getting it getting it destroyed right and taking it away which managed to do it

it was amazing we got people at al gore involved and it was i mean that was like games you didn't want endless awards obviously it's like campaign fodder but it did so well um but equally we did you know you're okay mate which is a campaign all around mental health and trying to get guys to talk and open up and i think it's you know even if you've even if a platform starts with negativity if you've got that many people why waste the opportunity to drive positive change but that's incredible i think i do remember both of those campaigns actually but i also think in terms of you saying it has a murky past i have to say as much time this like woke lefty liberal person I remember laughing at the jokes from Lab Bible

that was of it's time we didn't stuff I was saying to my management earlier actually stuff comes off my Facebook

I'm like shit I need to delete that like comments that we made that were off off hand because it was a different culture and it's things do move on

I think you can't blame a platform for being reflective of culture what shows great strength is that you then are able to the hardest thing you can do I've even a fan of myself is change and and move that niche and because again the coolest thing about it is if your target demographic is those typical archetypal lads if your if your content then changes and might inspire them to change their

mindset if anything the best thing you can do is target that kind of demographic and change it if only we could do that with like republicans in america or you know that's that's unbelievably cool to be able to do that yeah and i think i think it's understanding that with reach comes responsibility i guess and i think that's something that influences i hate the word but influences or creators or people with big social followings need to remember and this is something i wind me with all our clients i think a lot of them really get it it's that with reach comes responsibility and that actually you have to harness that for some positive change and some good um and not turn it into a negative mindfulness because it can very easily slip into that and I think that's what we that's if there's

one thing I learned about about culture allowed by books that you can do that and you can inspire millions of people with a platform to shift in a positive way and as you say I think you know what are publishers and what are news news outlets and what is media other than being reflective of the society which it's in right otherwise you don't sell it's all populist yeah so i think it's a sign of the times changing as much as us changing and i think yeah i completely agree and i think some of the stuff you're touching on which is one of the biggest things we find especially i find it with work is the is the generational um disjunct that we feel especially like working as an influencer uh if we're going to use that term when a brand doesn't

understand how important it is but there was something i saw the other day this is so funny porn hub have a verified couple who they got to do like a video with but they also went and picked up trash on the beach and they did it as a campaign and it was like our dirtiest video yet or something and i was like that's actually fucking cool because I think what people don't get is that as a generation, we're really, like we really are trying to make change. So what we've done is we've, as much as we still operate in this capitalist society, there is always some level of kind of like social movement within it. I don't know. It's just, it's definitely evolving. I think we're moving so fast that the generations

above us sometimes find it hard to see and so they don't get it when we're doing certain things but even just seeing like how that porn hub video probably will have more impact than like legislation done by um i don't know the government because we there's there's so much there's such a big chasm of knowledge between the two groups completely i mean like porn hubs are number one visited site in the us right i think it's number one visited site in the US, right? I think it's the number one visited site in the world. If you look at the rankings of the top 10 sites, I remember Labi Books, we were in there,

one of the top sites of the world. We were number 13. Pornhub, I'm pretty sure, is still number one. And to the amount of, imagine being the number one visited website in the world and how much power and leverage you have. Use it for good and to be fair to them not only is their marketing

quite funny they do do some of these amazing movements in campaigns because it's like otherwise what you're doing with that reach how are you actually

impacting in a positive way the world and I think it's not it was crazy I remember being when we were at LAD and like we'd look at we were always in the

Manchester office where the social guys who were really the kind of engine of the business sat and they had a screen with all the traffic and you'd see something like 10 million people or something I've looked on the site today or something ridiculous and it was just like every now and then you just get a moment where you're like oh my god that's

10 million people who've seen this content or have seen this website what are you doing with it the most viewed thing I've ever had is when loud bible shared of one of my compilation videos of me cutting eggs amazing amazing just got so many views amazing but I agree and I think the other thing it's interesting because obviously you're coming at it from like a social side the same as me is when we hear conversations around loud bible and things or people being dismissive it's it's the visibility that really takes a lot of the flack whereas the people that own all the oil companies or that are doing all the really sharky stuff up top that own like all the world's wealth they're invisible and this this new visibility is something which is also changing but do you think it will come away from

that because I think at the minute there's this this sharing feeling I don't know if people are starting to regress from that as in people are becoming more into that yeah yeah I mean I feel like social media is in a very funny place in terms of it you know was during the I guess 2012 to say 2015 it was a place of real I think dynamic conversation sharing it had a real pipe especially someone like Twitter and Facebook as well you know and I think now I think Instagram which is obviously the primary platform maybe it's just that you know the platforms have changed my Instagram isn't exactly a platform for sharing as much it doesn't have the same dialogue functionality that i think a twitter and a facebook even had back in the day and i think

it might be it might just be that the platforms have moved away from being around conversation and more to individual sort of posting which leads to you know less dialogue and more individual like look at me which I think I can see evidence of. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

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own some of the awful businesses that are polluting the world who are the leaders in you know across the world who are causing damage and then you can use your your voice and you can use your platforms on social whether it is you know whether you as an influencer with however many hundreds of thousands of people or an average person having a conversation in the pub with someone you can create change by by that share and I think that is that's never been easier um which I think is a massive opportunity for us yeah but it so when we met I was talking to Jordan about like my career and what I'm doing and he like gave me a bit of advice and the first thing I said was will you come on my podcast because what I find really interesting is I think you're absolutely fascinating so interesting to talk to you but you don't put

yourself in a front-facing role is that just something you wouldn't have you always been more interested in being the brains behind the machine I mean I think I think I am I I mean it might be a just a personal thing but I think I when I, when I was at LAD and when I was doing stuff, I was a bit more front facing. You know, I kind of hosted some things and I did panels and talks and keynotes and all of that. And I still do some of that to an extent. But I think being in the role that I'm in now and YMU and obviously representing such amazing talent and such a broad suite of talent, I think it felt natural for me to be behind the talent and not in front. And I think there's something that doesn't quite click around being a manager or being in a management position and also promoting yourself and being on the forefront. And I think maybe that's shifting a little bit as the sort of, you know, industry personality brand becomes stronger and stronger.

But I think especially when I started and for the last kind of couple of years now I've been very much wanting to take myself I thought so it was a great opportunity just to delete my Instagram got rid of it like I don't post anything well that's what I was saying because I've tried to find you on the gram and stuff and there's not much I mean I used to have it and I used to post this stuff but I deleted it I deleted all my Facebook I deleted all my Twitter I feel so cleansed and you know what's funny is I think maybe my personality jars with the feeling of being under a spotlight because when I was 14 at school, weirdly,

I deactivated my Facebook account for a year, which back in the day was quite a big thing because everyone was on Facebook. And I deactivated it. Yeah, pretty rebellious and hashtag cool. I deactivated it for a year and it was like the best thing I could have ever done. And the same thing with Instagram.

Like now I use it because obviously you've got clients and, you know, you've got to keep up with the blogs and the gossip, whatever else. But I don't post and I don't have anything on there. And it is the most liberating feeling

in the world. And this is why I always say, and I know obviously this is what you do, but I have absolutely no envy whatsoever for being in the spotlight and being in a position. And I respect what you do so much because it's so difficult I even found it on a micro level to have that spotlight and to

have people judging you looking at you and I hold my hands up to anyone who can do it so congrats but thank you but I do think there's two sides so obviously it's interesting because as much as I love doing what I do and the way that I get to do that is by being online, another part of me, like the idea of being like actually famous really would stress me out. But then like I also like, I can't really explain it. I think the new version of fame is what I don't like.

I think I'd love to be like respected and accredited and people to think I'm great. But the culture of celebrity is not something that I wish to like court or like the idea of being patched makes me I'm just like that's horrible yeah and I've seen if you've seen it if you've been around people who are under that public I mean I don't know if you saw the Jade Goody documentary I did I've that's so sad I mean it was like one of the best things I think channel four have done a long time it's

amazing doc but it was brutal and it was it was horrible on so many levels and I think what was so revealing is that yeah that cult of celebrity she was a she was a great I guess example of what was to come because I think that exists now in an everyday sense of even people like yourself who you know you might not get papped and say MJ goody did but you're still under that constant spotlight and you do have a following and when you've got a following those are real people that isn't just a number that says 180,000 however many years those are real people there and I think it's it's a it's a tough culture to be in because it is all about the personality and it it caters therefore for a type of person who is willing to put themselves out there and show themselves which I think for the majority of people they're not overly confident

or comfortable to do even the people who are in that position a lot of them aren't comfortable and I know it because I see it you know why I'm you and you know maybe having the privilege to work with amazing talent it's like it's tough it's not an easy job at all so so with that knowledge and maybe that feeling that you you recognize how social media but could potentially have a negative impact how do you then um work in this new talent agency so we've spoken a lot about having that um feeling of responsibility and also reconciling this idea that when you do something you also want it to have that like beneficial aid how do you work in an industry where you know that personally

maybe it could impact you negatively do you know yeah it was almost it's almost being you know being in favor of being a you know climate change actors and working for shell right is that what you're kind of saying so how do you manage yeah no not that extreme more like it's interesting because in a funny way i think what i'm trying to make you say because i think it's it's true it's like there are people especially in the talent industries who will champion who will want to talk about social media and things as if it is the most amazing thing and i think that that's a really negative way of doing stuff i think we've got to have a really a holistic approach to viewing it and be like right we know it's going to have a negative impact it's not going away and I think what you're trying to what you bring to it is a very

different vision probably because of your age as well like yeah no I think you're you're spot on I mean yeah I think social media is a is as you say it's here to stay and there's nothing we can do about that it is the medium it is the platform by which people we consume our content and we consume our news and we consume our world and I think it's more you know it's in it's kind of like the early days of smoking right when cigarettes came around and everyone was chain-spoken because they thought it was good for them and then it was only 50 years later did people realize actually it's going to give you lung cancer and kill you and I feel like social is in a similar thing where it is the status quo it is what it is and it's how do we I guess be conscious enough and aware enough of how we consume it as individuals and how do we impart that down to the next generation to our kids because you know it's only going to get more

intense and humans and technology are becoming more and more interconnected whether that is through you know virtual reality as well or AR or you, which is the next wave to come, or social. And I think it's how do we be aware enough to know that we must not let it, if we don't want to, let it become our lives. And we keep boundaries and we keep space and we make sure that we're aware that being on our phones all the time isn't good for us. And being constantly inundated with information,

principally never mind what the information is, isn't good for our our brains and you need space and you need breaks and you need time to be present and to chill and to not be constantly bombarded with stuff I mean I think that's the thing that we forget even if you're flicking through your twitter feed or instagram or tiktok wherever it is regardless even if you're consuming it it's still information that hits your brain and I think the build-up of small little micro bits of information after a while can lead to overload which i think is another reason why people are suffering from a lot of anxiety and depression and stress because they felt their brains are getting cluttered with so much stuff that probably half of it 90% of it they didn't even really consume but it's even the visuals and the you know the words and the graphics whatever it might be over time builds up to the

point where your brain can't take it anymore so having the awareness of that and finding ways to alleviate that that space and create and you know create new space for new ideas is you know i think it's one that isn't a really amazing thought that in order for new ideas to spring you need space you need you know air and a break and a breather for you to create and to be innovative and i think that can only come with you switching off taking time and being present you know why do you think meditation has become such an amazing such a popular phenomenon as well there's so many things i'll talk to you about so i don't i never say i'm not saying how custom like i'm older than you but i'm only three years older than you and i still think that interestingly going back to the point you're saying about smoking and i

read this is such a because you're you are gen z on you yeah just yeah just uh 1996 onwards yeah so even though oh so even like yeah i'm only a few years older than you. I still think, as you say, because you grew up just a tiny bit more with that access to information, the way that you view things is with so much more maturity. I smoked when I was younger and I went out and partied when I was 22 all the time. And I think it's this interesting, it's almost like this old jolly hockey six. I still had this older understanding of that's just tradition that's where it is and i do think that gen z are more pragmatic with information because you're really used to digesting it from taking it in and as back to the other point though

i do think that in terms of as you're getting older and you're growing up it is a shame that you're able to learn so much or that we all know so much because i do think that can be really damaging about weirdly i was thinking about that the other day that it's um you know and this is something where you know people have fights with their parents about this all the time because because we are we have information at our fingertips in a way that the generation above us don't didn't have and I don't think quite understand just how much information we have it's like our knowledge base and what we know and what we can see and what we can understand and what we can read is infinitely wider and stronger than than anyone of an age who didn't grow up with that yeah just of course it is right and the kids the kids beneath us are going to be exactly the

same and i think yeah it is a bit weirdly there would there would be some it would be nice to be ignorant in a sense and just to not worry about shit because because we know so much and we can read into things and you know it's a hyperlinked internet so you go from one thing to the next to the next next and immediately you've gone through you know hundreds of years of research in five clicks your broader your knowledge base is much broader than than i think we take credit for but also that comes at a cost totally i just had a bit of an epiphany i think was it elon musk that said the only way that we can like evolve now as humans as if we kind of become computers but i was just thinking as you were talking obviously the way that we're because we can't evolve through like natural

selection or sexual selection because of technology it's changed so much that those things don't really play a part anymore even take a really basic example if someone has plastic surgery your instincts on sexual selection won't be um actually like representative it's not a fair marketplace exactly so if we are taking into i always thought that when he said that that meant that we would create the robots and then the humans would die out and they would become like the real but actually is it not that by retraining our brains by like two-year-olds being on ipads and we are turning our brains into computers because we're processing information so differently. 100%.

I think it's the equivalent of, you know, Intel releasing the i5, i6, and then i7 processor. We're just doing that to our brains by being connected to now. So the kids are like the iPhone 12. Exactly. The kids are like the iPhone 12X Max Pro and we're like the iPhone 4.

No, but we're, you know what I mean? It's like we, you're right. A phone is an extension of ourselves at the end of the day. And I think we sometimes also don't appreciate that, you know i mean it's like we you're right it's a phone is an extension of ourselves yeah at the end of the day and i think we sometimes also don't appreciate that that you know us being connected constantly means that our brains are connected constantly and it becomes an extension of us you know we are close to technology then i think we will give ourselves credit for when you go on the tube and you see everyone on their phone they're all connected yeah to the world of knowledge in the world of information which is i think an amazing thing but

also something that comes at a cost and i think that yeah what Elon Musk meant by that and I think what the future for all of this is it's not about technology replacing us it's about us becoming infused with technology to the point where our brains can in an instant find out anything we want it's like can this chip processor go in and be connected to our brains so much so which it already is in a sense because it's connected to our hands but can it become go inside of us can it can it be chipped can it be like that's the next step which is kind of terrifying but then at the same time they would have said the same thing 100 years ago about what we've got today but even without putting a chip

in the more i think about it we do process information so much quicker even i think about how we look at screens and the way that you can take in so much stuff and it's it is interesting i do talk to my mom and i do realize i just know so many things about everything which is really pointless but i'm great at a party um what do you but what do you imagine like the future going for like what would be your version of because as you say like people find it really scary to imagine ai but obviously someone who's really in that world but also i feel like you do have a positive spin on it which is important important, because this is the future. There's no point being like, scared of it. Well, that's it. I think, you know, you have two choices, right? You either

accept or you live in a constant state of distress. And the idea is, and you know, one of the concepts, I mean, I don't know if you know Andrew Yang, who's going for president in 2020. He's the third most popular amongst people under the age of 35 for a reason. But one of his messages is all about managing technology and embracing of technology, but also being aware of the fact that it is coming to take a number of jobs. And there are going to be a large proportion of the workforce here and in the States that are going to be completely taken out. And how do you help those people? So what he was talking about is things like a citizen's dividend where you know every similar to universal basic income

similar concept or same concept really we're doing in the states and you know the concept being that technology will make all these people redundant what are they then going to do is there a workforce is there a an economy for them to work in i know i know people say oh there will be new jobs but there's a lot of people who are being outskilled very quickly and you're never going to compete with a machine but also don't forget on the back of that the people saying there'll be new jobs but there's a lot of people who are being outskilled very quickly and you're never going to compete with a machine but also don't forget on the back of that the people saying there'll be more jobs we're already suffering with the crisis of add into that the climate change i mean i read an amazing article in new york the other day that was basically saying how we need to stop saying how we're going to prevent climate change we need to go what are we going to do

because it's coming yeah and the first thing they said is one of the most important things you need is a functioning and stable government which is going to be um willing to take in immigration and stuff but if you add in as you say disparity of wealth there are no um blue collar labor jobs left because again as you say tech's taken over taken a massive influx of immigrants from parts of the world that are overheating like the reason that politics right now is so fucking pressing isn't because of whatever the stupid argument about leave remain it's because technology plus climate change like we're literally just walking towards our own little to be fair though this is why this is happening because this is our own this is going so deep but basically what's happening is it's

like another way of natural selection as in we're going to kill off half the population because we won't be able to function there has to be at the minute there's too many of us and it sounds really sick and i'm not saying like i want this to happen it's just a really interesting thought experiment if you actually look at like the bigger picture of what's going on like the biggest thing we can do is try and be kinder and better and not because of any woo woo liberal stuff but actually genuinely to survive 100 we won't be able to survive it completely and i feel like this is a very gen zed phenomena which is nihilism and it's this idea of we're all fucked yeah so let's try and make the most out of it i mean if you if you

look at um i always said this when i did talks about gen zed and and you know what what makes them unique this is a few years ago but the whole culture of memes and idea of meme therapy and nihilistic memes i mean the nihilism meme page whatever is like one of the most popular meme pages because people are aware that everything's screwed and they have no power or control over it so the power then has to come into what do you do in your own life to survive and how do you make the world a better place for the people around you totally and i think that's the difference i always said this between the difference between a millennial and a gen z is like the millennials were you know the sibling at the dinner table shouting about all the problems going on in the world and trying to, you know, work out why and how and what do we do about it.

And Gen Z is the kind of quiet sibling who's just like, you know, looking at that and saying, right, that didn't work. You still got Trump, you still got Brexit, you still got climate change, you still got all these problems. So I think, you know, the Gen Z sibling sitting there being like, well, there's nothing we can do. And I think there's a part of me which I guess identifies with that and I do appreciate the the reality that you can fight and fight and fight but if the forces you're fighting against are so big there's something around how do you then focus more on what can I do in my life to the people around me and in my community to make it a better place yeah you know and I think there's something I do think however much I might sound like oh why why'd you give up why are you not fighting more I

think for certain things I do think it's a very gender phenomenon and I'd look at the the sort of trend and the meme of nihilism which I think is is is bigger than it's ever been I I think you're completely right but I also think that um that's not giving up because if everyone helps their immediate people around them it'd be so much better it's like when I vote I now think how I vote I'm not voting for me

because frankly nothing political is really going to impact me that much apart from being a woman unless the handmaid's tale happens nothing really

so if I vote I'm going to vote for who is the lowest common denominator who's going to get fucked in this situation that's who I'm it's always like

we're all fucked but who's going to get the fuck the most and how do I help them whereas my parents are like how can I make my taxes better I'm like but that's who I'm it's always like we're all fucked but who's going to get the fuck the most and how do I help them whereas like my parents are like how can I make my taxes better I'm like

but that's so irrelevant but I think we well even though I'm millennial I still think the mindset of just people under 30 which is cute I'm like

how are you I'm still in I'm still in is more just this collective idea because I don't know it's just I don't even know

how I've got onto this but at 22 right now you're in a position which most people would be like, right, I get there when I'm like 40. Looking forwards, what are your plans for the next like few years apart from nihilism and just chilling? Life plans, general career plans, any plans. Well, I don't even know if I told you this, but you know I'm married. No. Although I did just look at your hand this, but you know I'm married? No. Although I did just look at your hand. And you know my wife's pregnant.

No. On 7th of Jan, G-Day. It was a little bit mental. That's so exciting! Your life is just, you're just doing stuff quicker. Yeah, and I think it's, that's what I'm going to be doing.

Being a dad. Yeah it's you know that's what I'm going to be doing it's like being a dad yeah and you know what it I think it it's all part of this bigger picture really which is that work is amazing and work is great and as you say you know I've been lucky enough and in a position where I've been able to do loads of different stuff and you know get through different industries and be exposed a lot and have an amazing network and meet loads of people all that sort of stuff I've had great experiences and I've loved every minute of it but on a more sort of deeper spiritual level and more a cosmic level if you will it's like what's the purpose of life what am I what am I here to do and I've really come to understand that for me in my world that purpose is family it's kids and I feel like

that is the for me the ultimate fucking purpose and the ultimate dream and I think you know maybe it's a thing of right because I've done what I've wanted to do um up to this point in a work sense it's almost like what's next that is that for me that is the thing and you know it's all I'm so grateful to work and you know for the jobs I've had and the places I've been and the people I've been able to work with but all of it is still for me a means to that end and I feel like that's where yeah that's where I've come to to the point where you know work will always work will always be fun I'll always be able to do stuff always be able to if I ever wanted to start another business or go into partnership or do whatever I've I'm in

a position to do that um which means that I can be relatively fearless in the way that I work in the way that I operate which is great it's a good position to be in but ultimately it's a means to an end it's a game that we play and family is the fucking real totally first of all congratulations this is so cute and i'm so excited for you and second of all you're 100 right the most important thing for anyone even if you think you're the most um insular person ever is human connection this is what we're all craving but we're fucked over by capitalism makes us want to work we need money like if we could all just live and these as you say these obstacles these games of life didn't exist then it'd be fine but we live so long that we've had

to make up basically the sims completely yeah and then but I 100% agree I think that having real good friends around as I get older this is all I think about I'm just like having good relationships and good and that's it and you know what it's like what's for me what what's the ultimate relationship other than the relationship you have with a wife and a kid like that is that for me is like everything and I think it comes back to the concept of however nihilistic this sounds you're not going to necessarily change the world on a macro scale but what can you do in your own life and so for me this was something in my life that that is it makes a lot of sense it gives me all

the purpose and drive I think in in the world really um and yeah as you say it's about relationship it's about connection and i think that's the thing that work often often makes people forget is that you can drive and drive in a career but it's like you know you've been trying to do this for 20 years and you're a mid-weight marketing manager it's like is it worth it i wasn't expecting you to say that i was like ready for you to be like okay 25 I'm gonna be I'm gonna have my whole own company and then by 30 I'm gonna like own the UK and then and then America no yeah I am yeah I know I yeah I thought I dropped that that's cool I enjoyed that but it's um yeah I like spoiler but um but yeah I think I think it's not about that. I think all the, you know, like work will always be fine

because I enjoy it and I think, you know, you always got to move with the times. Whatever I'll be doing in 10 years might be completely different to what I'm doing now. But at the end of the day, I'll be doing what I think, where I think I can add value. It'll probably be in the world of brand building to some capacity.

I've kind of found that theme and that theme I'm happy to run with. But I think from from a sort of life perspective it's all of the personal stuff that's more important do you know what you're right as well because I think you as you say like your career will be fine because you did get that head start by starting at 17 you've got it figured out now whereas I only started properly working like two years ago now I'm like oh I kind of get it now but as you say it's like taking not going to uni isn't going to hold you back it might i don't come back to the point but it might just actually propel you and let you live your life a bit quicker and that's what i've always and that's what i've always thought and and you

know it really has for me in my life been been crystal clear that that's the biggest reason why i'm able to do ideas because i took a leap when i was 17 to drop out and start full-time job advice and you know wherever that job might have been, the principle of not spending three years, getting smashed, going to lectures that I didn't think added any value, coming out with a 2.1 or whatever from King's because I was pissing around half the time, you know, and... I feel slightly attacked. I did do all of those things.

I'm sorry. No, I'm joking. But also, like, you look at what you're doing now and you're killing it. But I did this, to be fair. The reason I'm doing this is because I had time. You need to, like, you look at what you're doing now, and you're killing it. But I did this, to be fair. The reason I'm doing this is because I had time. You need to, like, start a side hustle. I'm not using my degree right now. What did you study again?

English literature. I mean, I kind of am, but I haven't gone into, like, a normal. If anything, I'm doing the job that I kind of wanted to do, but I've done better at it because I haven't gone to do journalism. I didn't do a master's in anything else. And I've got a bigger audience doing broadcast journalism than I ever would have done if I'd gone and done a master's and then gone to work for a newspaper completely and I think yeah you've you've because it also what's funny is that uni isn't actually the end road for most people as you say bachelor's degree

yeah we're the other thing about four or five people I know from a circle of however many who are going to do a master's in the starting in September or have already done one and actually for a lot of people I feel like now for the people who have the luxury to do so they're like right I need that extra security again I didn't realize that I was like shit hold on you're going back this is a new this is a new thing though I think because almost everyone has it was so saturated that now like a master's you have to master set your side and you have to have to have everything else it is a risk don't get me wrong like I've I'm not employed by anyone so I my salary is really lumpy. But then if it all goes tits up, like, you can get, I don't know,

I actually do agree with you now. But this is another thing, right, that I think is, I mean, it's evident in so many people I speak to. Life isn't meant to be easy. No. And that's the thing that people don't seem to get. I think our generation has, and the generation maybe that I'm on the end of it has a challenge with understanding that life is hard like no one said life was a fucking walk in the park and you'd be able just to crack on and

enjoy yourself and everything was going to be happy sunshine rainbows and you'd be able to walk and get a job that pays you 100k a year and crack and like and just everything would be a breeze it's like life is life is life like I think influencer culture is partly responsible for that though because they think that people watch these aspirational lives as like almost like porn. They were saying that people are so obsessed with people doing up their houses and buying houses, like vloggers that are 12,

because they never will be able to buy a house. So you're actually, it's so aspiring. So I think that the problem is, it goes back down to this disparity thing which is really difficult is we have one of the spectrum we've got massive problems with poverty and then huge not the influence of this tool it's more like the billion dollar old money oil companies but that huge disparity in wealth is causing this disjunct where people are like there isn't any middle ground anymore. So it is confusing.

And also the problem is, is that like YouTube and the influencer world, so to speak, is all self-made. So you've got people who are normal people. It's not like in the traditional celebrity world where you'd have to be handpicked by, you know, a studio or a brand to be a star. Nowadays, anyone in theory can be a star and can grow and build an audience

and then be able to afford a house. And that makes it harder for people to realize because it's one in a million who can really fucking do that, to be honest. And the challenge is that kids now grow up and the number one wanted job in the world is to be an influencer. And, you know, I mean, that's not right. I would say if I don't want to be an influencer anymore, I'm like coming away from it.

I'm still going to be online, but I don't want to be that traditional sense of having peeped through the curtain and seen like if I'd done certain things I definitely could have worked towards getting a certain kind of following making a certain kind of money and I as you say the cost in that you would not believe like it I don't think it's worth it for anyone out there that thinks they want to be an influence I think if you fall upon it and you get really good and people follow you but I really wouldn't I just think maybe that sounds really preachy but I would just say it's not the grass is never greener I think I think there'll be a huge backlash in the next like 10 years I think it's a house of cards

the whole industry's a house of cards it's about to fall and I can see that happening I can see not only from a mental health perspective but from an from an economy perspective I think brands are realizing that influences quote-unquote influences can have a role to play but I don't think that the wide or net of the economy which has existed whereby if you had a certain amount of followers you can make a shit ton of money I don't think that's really going to exist anymore it's going to force people out there yeah um just purely because of saturation there are so many people out there how do you keep above what which is why you know and this is what was so great about a conversation the other day it's like okay you've got a platform how do you then build your own economy how do you then own your own business your own brand how do you create ventures

that use that that add value to that world that you've built if you've built if you've got a community of a hundred and something thousand people following you who you know you've got good engagement rate and you've got people who really love what you do and love you how do you add value to those people's lives how do you not see it as you're trying to you know you're taking brand money to then try and sell those people shit they don't need how do you actually speak to those people and ask right look with what I've got and the brand that I've built around your personality how can I create something for you how can we create our own space how can we talk about things I mean it's what you've done with your podcast so brilliant and it's why I have endless respect for you and I think you absolutely

smashed it because it's like you know you have a following that's built around a brand that's yours, that you own. And that IP around adulting, that brand that you've got, that you can take that, forget the platform. If Instagram dies tomorrow, you'll be fine. And that's the difference. I always say to people, and this is what, you know,

whenever I speak to clients or speak to, you know, social first talent, if you will, it's what would happen if Instagram died tomorrow? Would you be okay? The vast majority of people would not be. And one percent who will they're the ones who'll fly and have great careers because even if they didn't have instagram they would have they would be they would be all right and they could still but you could still you could take adulting global into the biggest international brand in the world if you want it without social media and that's the

difference you can't see what i'm blushing that's so nice it's you know it's lovely and i think that people need to see more insight into because the point of influence culture as well to sell you the dream so you're meant to think it looks fucking great but actually it's really problematic for people to think that 100 and you know it is a dream and i think a lot of kids growing up and written and thinking that it's some attainable thing because the challenges i'm saying it's like kids are filming with the same cameras now as their favorite influences people people's content looks the same people can upload themselves it's like youtube's great and i love you know it's an amazing platform and it's taught me endless things and you know giving me a ton but the reality of

it is it's caused this weird dichotomy between kids growing up looking at their favorite stars who are just like us hey guys how's it going but and then thinking that that's attainable when it's not and it creates this really weird thing where kids are then again delaying and delaying delaying starting something that they're really good at and they can excel in because they think that you know oh well if i can do it then i can do it and that's not the case literally talk to you all day can we do this again we can definitely do this again um if we want to if we want to find you can they can find people find you or i mean you don't, you're just under the radar now?

You know what, I'm pretty, yeah, I'm pretty behind. I mean, look, I have a link, I have a fucking LinkedIn,

I guess. That's all I have to offer is a LinkedIn. But yeah, like to be fair, if anyone wants to email me, if anyone wants to talk, like that's probably more useful.

It's like, my email, I mean, my email is jordan.er.schwartzer at gmail.com my personal one just fucking drop me like because a lot of people I speak to they need just another opinion and some advice and like if anyone's young and they're going through some stuff and they need help in navigating especially the creative industries which I know really well honestly I'll make time

for anyone so just give me a shout you are so good Jordan like said one sentence to me and I was like I know what I'm gonna do now so good So good. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been my absolute pleasure. I've absolutely loved this. Thanks so much for listening, guys. I'll see you soon. Bye. Bye. We'll be right back. guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem?

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