Adulting - #49 Why Is Cancel Culture Problematic? with Ban Hass

Episode Date: November 17, 2019

Hey podulters, this week I speak to friend and one time foe (lol) Ban Hass, about instagram wars, influencers, shadowbanning and loads more.I hope you enjoy- as always, please do rate, review and subscribe :) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi, poddlers. In today's episode, I speak to Banhas, who is, well, she's not really an influencer, but she's a fellow fitness personnel who's kind of been around on the ground for as long as I have. And we started off our careers on social media at a similar time. And the way we made friends is quite interesting. We talked about at the beginning of the podcast. And basically, in this episode, we tried to dissect some of the problems or the problematic nature of social media

influences, wokeness, and loads more more I think you're going to really enjoy this chat because it is very raw and we got quite into it and I don't know even if some of it might sound quite problematic but I think we need the space to have these conversations especially in light of kind of all the drama that's been going on at the minute I'm sure you've seen all of the kind of gossip forum influencer um just pl lava that's been going on so I thought this would be quite timely to have this conversation and yeah I hope you enjoy it please do rate review and subscribe and enjoy the episode guys bye hi guys and welcome to adulting. Today I'm joined by Ban.

Hello. Hello, how are you doing? I'm good, thanks. How are you? Very well, thank you. So I've brought on Ban today even though she thinks she's really nervous but she's going to be fab because we both work in a similar industry and we've kind of been floating around on Instagram for the same amount of time. And I think we have quite similar views on lots of things that go on on the online world. But we thought we'd outline how we first met because technically we were both fitness influencers at the time. Would you have called yourself that back then?

No. What would you have said? I don't think my accounts changed much, know from from from the beginning but it was more focused on fitness yeah it was more focused on fitness health how we call it um that was the main focus and I we followed each other you were talking about competing and and not competing in fitness and we had that little little argument that happened when I first got into fitness it's such a weird time for me because it was I found it really empowering and I suddenly found this whole new I can't have an awful relation I found this whole new aspect of my life where I got really into exercise having

not been into it and so I was very protective of the world of like bodybuilding and stuff and I was also quite young and naive and so I was so in the throes of like being obsessed with taking bell fees and getting shredded abs and stuff that ab broke what I ban ban wrote what I would now probably write like an article just about kind of looking at the way that the fitness industry kind of not exploits young women but encourages them to profit off their sexuality or objectifying themselves. Now, I talk about that kind of thing all the time. But at the time, I think I must have been like 20 or 21. Well, I'm that much older now.

But I was like, this is really insulting. So you DMed me first to say, look, this is it. I've had enough now. And then you started because you'd already DMed me after another post I'd written. Was it similar vein? It was about the rise of the unqualified booty builder. Oh, yeah. And you're like, yeah, this isn't on now.

This is just, you can't do this. Because you're protecting someone. You're protecting some of your friends. And you said, you can't do this because you're protecting you're protecting someone you're protecting some of your friends and you said you can't write this I just don't think it's fair blah blah blah

and you'd probably write that now was I a qualified personal trainer at this point because you were you were I think you were

literally just protecting people yeah and I was saying how unqualified trainers it's just not fair that they're cashing in

on things, pretending like their home workouts and their banded workouts were going to achieve the same aesthetic goals as someone who's been basically lifting for like five years and that it's actually quite dangerous and irresponsible. So that was the first time you messaged me. It's interesting because we're going to come on to talk about this, but the way your voice was then so strongly and so so truthful and honest it's something which i've had to grow

into and unlearn which i think comes from youth wanting to be a people pleaser and wanting to appease the buses i think part of the reason why i probably messaged you was because i thought exactly what you thought but i almost it was like a projection where I couldn't believe that you felt comfortable to be like no this is wrong and call it out I think the reason that I protect my friends but also because secretly I felt like fuck I should probably should be saying that which I think a lot of people do that like when you do something someone else they know should be really doing it too instead of co-ssigning it, you go, you can't say that because it protects your own ego. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And the thing is, when I posted that,

I remember thinking, oh, this might be like, some people might, you know, think this is too much or too far. This might ruffle a few feathers. But if I had any idea it would kick off the way it did, and I'd literally be trolled for about 48 hours there's not a chance I would have posted it but I only posted it because I was so I was so set that how can you not think this this is so what everyone is clearly thinking

that I didn't think there would be any negative backlash do you know what's so weird now we're talking about this it's just literally on exactly a level with what we were talking about we were going to talk about if that makes sense like what's so weird? Now we're talking about this, it's just literally on exactly a level with what we were talking about. We were going to talk about it, if that makes sense. Like what's happened, what you're talking about. Like a witch hunt.

Yeah, so basically I then commented. You did the next post was something about how, what was it? Sex, I can't remember. It was like the sexualization of fitness infants or something like that. Sex sells or something. Yeah. And then came all the posts from you your mates about oh here's me just looking for validation but yeah we are looking for validation like

if you weren't looking for validation you wouldn't post a picture online you just post a picture and keep it but everyone was saying oh here I am looking for validation or In came all the half-naked shots of women basically saying, this post is bullshit, this post is bullshit, go attack ban. But what I think happened, I never said go attack ban, I actually was trying to mediate the comments.

But what happened was, I think, and I think for me definitely, it was that point of when someone makes you recognise the situation you're in, so you kind of like, you broke through the fourth wall. So I think what happened was, for me especially, I genuinely did feel like oh my god I'm so liberated by showing pips my body but what I didn't realize was it wasn't really liberation it was as you said probably like that third party validation of people giving me we all get

gratification from likes yeah but we when someone points that out to you it's that it's being like, no, that's not what I'm doing. And it was really weird then looking back. So then I remember thinking, fuck, because everyone then started commenting on your picture being like, this is awful. I don't think I ever tagged you. I think people just… You didn't tag me, but others did. Others tagged you. So then I was commenting and it was mad.

And it was because your profile was smaller. I wasn't that much bigger than you, but there were other people with bigger profiles commenting and you see immediately online power play yeah power play and it doesn't really matter who's right or wrong it's simply a game of who's got more and who's got more followers to go and you know if if if you have half a million followers and you're saying to your followers someone has just called me out and has basically made an attack on me, their fans, their followers, as we were saying, will just jump on that and suddenly they're protecting their best friend who they don't actually know. Yeah. And it's literally about who's got more followers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's problematic because also what you were talking about wasn't, it's to break it into like a parallel because this is the only other thing I can think of. But when it comes to like white privilege, what you were talking about, you weren't talking about any one individual. You were talking about the problem of social media. And myself included. Yeah.

That's what people weren't understanding. I was putting myself into that category saying, look, I too we all do this we're all hypocrites we are all hypocrites and people started posting reposting photos of me that i'm you know i'm just jealous i'm just jealous oh here are the photos that you were posting would make more sense if you weren't half naked and all of these i was like like, not the point. I know. But I'm saying I'm aware of what the fuck we're doing. That self-awareness now is something which I hope that I have too. And those things that you said are things that I would say in a heartbeat now. And it just shows that when you're coming at things from different angles,

how they can be taken out of context. But what I was saying about the privilege thing is that instead of me reading that and realising you were talking about a thing, I put myself into that category and went, this is about me, as did all these other people.

And that's what we do so frequently when someone talks up about a problem. So for instance, if they say men are trash, a man who clearly has probably done something and that someone's told him off for will go, I'm not.

And that's exactly what I did. The door. Yeah. And it's this problem of like, we can't talk about things. We find it really hard to look at things objectively. And I think on social media, this is exacerbated hugely.

And people implicate themselves in stuff that isn't even about them. Yeah. Like even as we're talking about this right now, I can imagine that there'll be like 50 people thinking, is this about me? Actually, just thinking about this, I get a lot of DMs from people, influencers, who will literally say, is this about me? Yeah. I get that quite a lot. Like people say, look, I've had this from people you would know who will say, I have to unfollow you now. I need to protect my mental health.

Is this about me? It's because you're holding up a mirror though. But if you think it's about you, it probably is. Yeah. But it's not you saying it about them. It's just sometimes you need someone else to say something for you to be able to digest your own actions. And interestingly, after this whole thing happened we then became better friends because I actually then completely agreed with you and I think we spoke about it and I

understood and I think that's but you do post stuff and even though I know you're joking because sometimes you're also talking about you I'll go oh my god I do that and it's just it's quite useful sometimes yeah most of the time it is about me as well I can't post about stuff that I don't know yeah you don't understand yeah but what I think is really fascinating is the way that we both use social media now is I mean I think we it's weird because we have such a different way of using it but I think you're someone that I would would follow and relate to the most and I was saying earlier so balanced content is what, when we talk to people who maybe are judgmental of Instagram, they will say what I'm looking for is honest conversation and unfiltered stuff. And I don't want all these pretense things. And that is pretty much what your content is.

But as you say, actually, when you are really too truthful about things, it goes the other way. I think people like. Yeah, you'll never grow. People like the falsities of Instagram more than they realize. We actually, I think we feel really comforted. about things it goes the other way people i think people people like yeah you'll never grow people like the falsities of instagram more than they realize we actually i think we feel really comforted comfortable when you're calling things things out or even saying look guys i do this too people don't like it as much and that's when people will unfollow you because it's not as comfortable um and we were talking about this earlier you can't truly be authentic

I don't think and grow no and I don't think and you were saying as well like you can't be truly authentic with an opinion if you're being paid for something

so I actually was speaking about this with a friend the other day and I was thinking how if I get gifted a meal and the service is really bad but I've been given it for free I'll be like oh my god that meal was amazing and I'll really enjoy it

because I haven't I haven't invested in anything in it if I went out for a meal with my boyfriend and I was paying for it for free. I'll be like, oh my God, that meal was amazing. And I'll really enjoy it because I haven't invested anything in it. If I went out for a meal with my boyfriend and I was paying for it and the service was really bad, I'd be really upset. And if the food was really bad, I would also be like, that's so disappointing. That meal was like 30 quid

and the waitress was really rude. But you are, as much as you might still, the food was the same. It is very interesting how when there is either monetary value or no monetary value involved, you cannot have the same perception as someone who is paying for that service or paying for that product.

Yeah, I agree with that. Even if, but I think that you can still try and have a reliable as you can opinion, but it's still never going to be the same as when you're paying for something. And how are you ever going to be a blogger who gets paid to receive things to review things if you're constantly being honest and saying when something is shit then again no you're right but i also do think some really successful bloggers are really successful because they will so at the beginning before you're getting paid often you will give honestly because you don't think anyone's listening. Yeah. And if you've done that from the beginning, you said, I've always thought so-and-so shit, but this brand's great.

And then you get that partnership with the brand that you've always liked. That works out really well. But I do agree that it can be really difficult to give honest feedback. Or the other thing, which I fucking hate, and I did it once about Train, but everyone needs to stop doing this, is when a blogger or influencer tweets like, my plane was delayed at Virgin Airways. And it's like, no, you can't just hope that you're, because you've got a following, they're going to give you a refund. I think that's even worse.

Do you know what I mean? Is that why they do it? I think so. I did it once about a train. I was like, my train's really delayed. Did you get it? No, then I deleted the tweet, because it was so cringe.

I love it when you do something like, I hate myself. Yeah, because everyone always does that so I thought well I'll fucking give it a go and then actually it's just a bit cringe it is a bit cringe and I was like I'm gonna do that's so embarrassing I love things that you think you should be doing and then you realize you know what I actually can't do this but also that's a really good point about when you're in the throes of emotion this is why social media is so dangerous because I go to type out tweets and I think oh no draft section is there for a reason yeah but I think to type out tweets. And I'm like, oh, no. Draft section is there for a reason. Yeah, but I think. To reflect.

People get too quick to say things on one of those Instagram stories or Twitter and stuff. And then. I don't have that problem usually because I overthink everything. Yeah. So I don't really have that.

I don't have that issue. And we were speaking about this earlier when people suddenly change their mind about something, they form an opinion and they suddenly feel like they need to, they need to let the rest of the world know. Whereas you and I may mull over something for some time, think,

ooh, you know, this is interesting. This conversation around race is interesting, but maybe I won't just throw it out there and pretend like I'm the wokest person and make a post about it. I would never do that. I don't. I literally back off and I think, you know what, I don't think I've got, I'm the opposite. I think I don't have an opinion about anything. I don't think I know enough to talk about a lot of things. Whereas I think a lot of white privilege, a lot of white influencers feel like they do know enough. I used to wade in on almost every conversation because I really thought that my opinion mattered because I was so used to being heard.

I went to private school with 15 people in a class and if you had something to say, people would listen. And it's taken me years to realise that actually, one, I don't know everything, and two, sometimes my opinion is just not relevant on a certain topic. As much as I actually fucking love debating, like that is the other part of it,

I do want to talk about it. I think so many people need to realize that their opinions aren't always relevant yeah when we're talking about these conversations when we're when people are in these debates and for example someone is saying look this is how it makes me feel and someone else is piping and saying oh no you shouldn't feel like that that's not your that's not your place I even find it problematic with call out because I think what we're kind of talking about we're someone else piping and saying, oh, no, you shouldn't feel like that. That's not your place. I even find it problematic with call-out, because I think what we're kind of talking about,

we're coming onto is that kind of call-out culture and cancel culture, in that call-out culture can be really helpful because it can flag to people when something that's being done is problematic. Problematic is a problematic word in and of itself because it's being used too often. But then I also think sometimes the call-out culture is coming from one group, which may have a lot of privilege calling out another group which may live a very different lived experience and actually it's almost just shaming

because it's kind of saying look how much I know and it's like obviously you're going to know that because you're from xyz background and you do xyz and you're calling out a different category which for instance if we're talking about i don't know certain people that would sell like skinny tees but maybe they've had no education around why skinny tees are bad you know i mean and i get why and you were actually the one of the people that has made me think that i get that i totally get that like we used to call that can we not go yeah can we do that is that fair no is it fair if they genuinely don't know? Yeah.

Or is it their own responsibility? Well, this is, I think, what it comes down to because I think it's funny because we impose responsibility on different people depending on what they do. Yeah. And for some reason, there'll be certain people that we will deem should have more responsibility than others. So I think if someone has never proclaimed to be woke and doesn't talk on anything ever you can almost get away with a lot more because yeah that's not your remit yeah I can't get away with shit no because people like what the fuck are you doing because my message my brand my voice is way too strong. Yeah. What I represent is way too, it's so set.

I've always been so honest and you just know what my brand is about. Whereas someone else who stays very vanilla, very samey, samey, very here's my smoothie, here's my oats, here's my home workout, whatever. They can pretty much get away with anything

because you don't really know anything about them. Yeah. They're not authentic at all. Or, no, because I don't think it's always necessarily inauthenticity. I mean, like, it could be someone that just genuinely is never... For instance, I was just saying to you before, I've had the luxury of making a lot of unwoke mistakes prior to being followed on social media

or even doing it on social media at a time when I'm sure I'm fairly certain if you went back through my Instagram which I can't be asked to do

there will be something that you could flag as being really problematic but it was at a time when I had 3,000 followers so I'm not getting called out for it and luckily

weirdly I decided to go down a route where I started listening to Christalism and I've learnt loads however if I'd had my

if I was living in this climate now and had the following that I do now but I was me four years ago I would have been cancelled about started listening to christianism and i've learned loads however if i'd had my if i was living in this climate now and had the following that i do now but i was me four years ago i would have been cancelled about 20 times by now but i think the difference is once you are called out there are people who don't say sorry yes so there are people who refuse to say sorry and that's where it goes wrong like say sorry make your mistake i'm not'm not saying that everything's going to be forgiven. Do you think that some things are forgiven? Do you think everything is forgivable?

Where do you draw the line? I think it's so much context. So, for instance, you'd be like, murder is unforgivable. But if a woman murdered her husband because he'd been abusing her for 20 years, then I'd be like, fair enough. Do you know what I mean? So I don't think there is a black and white line. I think everything has a story and has a place

I think that in terms of like slipping up on things like wokeness and stuff I do think that it should be forgivable Ricky Gervais

is the worst person I could quote in this scenario but I'm going to because he is fucking like very problematic but he said something like if we don't allow people to make mistakes

and forgive them yeah they'll never change yeah we're basically saying you're never going to be able to grow. So once they've said the sorry, sorry's not enough. What you need then is do the work. Do the work. Yeah.

Not just reshare a meme, not just reshare a quote. I read something really good about that recently. But actually... I saw that as well, yeah. Was it about... Was it Rachel Cargill? Yeah, it was Rachel Cargill. Saying that if Instagram's deleted and Twitter is deleted, where is your activism? Yeah, yeah. Was it about, was it Rachel Cargill? Yeah, it was Rachel Cargill. Saying that like if Instagram's deleted and Twitter was deleted, where is your activism?

Yeah, exactly. And if you can't, if there's nothing apart from retweets and likes and shares, what is it? Then you're not doing anything. Are you going into a lecture hall? Are you actually doing any work? Back to what we were saying about making mistakes and doing- And forgiveness and actually making a change. On to the next thing is basically Obama said, obviously recently, which has been kind of taken out of context.

Oh, so annoying. But the thing about the wokeness. It really annoyed me. It did annoy me, but I actually do agree in terms of like, I see people, and I did this when I first learned what wokeism is, before it was called that as well. What was it called before wokeism? I guess you'd just be like, I don't know what you would say. I literally can remember when my leg was broken. Someone used the word woke.

And that was, when did I do that? August 2017. That was when I first learned that word. And it was also when I was first becoming slightly, like my feminism actually was more feminist than what I thought it was before. I think I actually was, that was on the cusp of me becoming this woman that I am now rather than the slightly unsure person I was before and before I don't know what it's called whatever it was before that but now being woke is a capital

in of itself so but knowing that something isn't woke for instance Molly May Hague from Love Island dressed as Cleopatra I'm going to admit my ignorance here and I wouldn't have known that dressing as Cleopatra was cultural appropriation I would have thought dressing in traditional traditional Egyptian dress was cultural appropriation but dressing as a person from history yeah I wouldn't have clicked anyway I then saw these articles everyone was going mad and they were like this is cultural and I was like this is fascinating because all of the comments were just people calling her out and I was like I as someone who is self-proclaimed to think that I know what's going on didn't you miss that I wouldn't I wouldn't have known either and I almost

feel like people were just saying it for the sake of being like look we would have never done that but really I got that did you always no no no no you're pretending someone's saying I got that I understood that yeah I'm that woke yeah exactly I I feel like it has become the woke Olympics. Who's going to catch it out first? Yeah. Who's going to retweet it first? Who's going to use it as content to latch on to? Yeah.

And I find it really fascinating because I think you have to have a level of fallibility because everyone, not everyone knows everything. Yeah. But what's happened is as long as you can stay on the right side of the argument, you kind of don't have to prove anything. And people, but then it goes both ways as well because the people who aren't woke at all as in, or don't actually. It gives them an excuse.

So what I didn't enjoy about the Obama thing, what I didn't like was how it kind of, that one quote kind of gave a whole load of influences, this kind of excuse to, oh, I'm just going to talk about nothing and just keep talking about my baked goods. You know, it kind of gave them that I'm just not going to be accountable for anything because I don't believe in cancel culture. I believe in supporting your friends. I believe in supporting people. People can make mistakes. That I don't agree with. I do think we should, I think we should be, I think we should be uplifting and helping those who need more of a

voice. I think we do need to call people out because they won't listen to being called in. So we can argue about the skinny T's and we can say they didn't know. What happens when it's the eighth time? Yes. Yeah, you're right. What happens then when they have been told and they choose to ignore it?

That's true. And I do agree because we've spoken about this before privately how we've DMed people to kind of say... They don't listen. And I've also been told off before where I've commented something which I thought was really nice.

Just being like, actually... Because also, if someone calls me out or comments on my picture this I will then go and investigate it and find out if I'm wrong and I'm really happy to learn because that's how I've got this is why I'm where I'm at now this is why I have this podcast because I've literally listened to so many people tell me off that I've gone I've learned so many things but what happens is people just delete stuff so I've written things which I thought was quite nice being like oh I don't know if I would say that I maybe would think about this because we're not in this group or whatever and people I don't know how people can instead of seeing that as like a means to be like I'm going to learn from this everyone sees everything as a

personal attack going back to that very first blog post that you wrote it's the same thing and this happens really often I think we've lost we've lost the ability to draw the line between the personal and the system and and we've all kind of like merged because i think a lot of the time what we're calling out is the systematic problems but everyone takes personal you're right and i think that's become part of the issue i wanted to go back quickly to those because you're saying about influencers who have used, and I agree, or not even influencers, just people using Obama's speech as a means to... I feel better now. Ostracize themselves.

Yeah. But do you think everyone has to have an opinion all the time? Do you think everyone has to be... Do you think people can just be a nice, smiley person? Or do you think that they have to show some kind of, not politics, but some kind of... Because I don't know. I just think, okay, so personally, personally, I think, why the fuck would you have a platform if you don't have an opinion? Right. I personally think, for me, for me, I am not interested in even posting online if it's not about something that is important to me.

That's my account. Someone else might think, you know what, I just want it as a business. This is just a business. I'm just going to post my recipes. I'm just going to post my workouts. For me personally, where it's not, I'm not getting paid to do this. I don't have to do this. If I'm posting, I'm going to post with a bit of

intention it's got to mean something it's I don't I don't care if it's just if it most of the time it's not just a picture of me looking nice because I don't I don't really care about that so I think it depends on the person I agree and I I'm the same in that I want everything to have some kind of depth to it or what I find interesting. And I also do think there must be corners of Instagram where people are literally using it as a means to switch off from that. You're a very, you're like me. Like I actually, I always seem to want to be engaged in content that's probably actually not good for me, which has some kind of edge to it or something I can learn from.

It probably would be helpful. Instagram's not my escape. I think that's the, I think that's probably the difference yeah that's true I agree I actually find everything quite not triggering but everything to me a bit like you I think I'd find some kind of politics in anything yeah I'm like well why the fuck is this person chosen to post this or like what does this mean I'm like when it comes to me and posting or me posting. So I don't really enjoy the part of Instagram where you have to have a picture, which is problematic in itself because it's a visual platform. I've got all the words, but I don't ever really have the photo to go with it. It's like, oh, God, fuck.

I literally said that the other day. I'm like, oh, fuck, I've got to find a photo now to add to that big spiel that I've got going on in my head. But that's because I don't really enjoy taking photos. I never have. Even if it doesn't mean that I don't like my outfit, it doesn't mean that I don't think I look nice that day or that I'm not confident about the way I look that day. I just, it's just not something I enjoy doing. And for that reason, you know, over the years, I've started posting less. I'm on it less.

I've stopped sharing as much. Even if something kicks off and I'm reading about it, I don't really always have an urge to take part in it anymore because I've personally started finding Instagram quite boring. I have as well. Not even offensive or I'm not. I have as well. Not even like, not even like offensive or I'm not even ranting as much. And I think that says a lot

because I'm just fucking bored. I also think, no, I agree with you because I used to want to wade in on every conversation again. I don't want to wade. I'm bored. No, and now I don't.

And I think it's also down to the fact that, so Ban said this to me the other day and I've never had anyone say this to me and I was like, oh my God. What did I say? So we were talking about how some people like love to work really hard and I actually am really good. I do work work really hard but I'm also very good at like

I've set so many boundaries with my work so I get up at six I'll go to the gym start my work I can't believe you get up at six I will work nine till five and then I stop and if you email me after five I'm not answering and I will go and hang out with friends and I always thought that was because I don't have a strong work ethic I've and then Bam was like no I think you're just really happy in your life. A hundred percent a hundred percent I don't care who I offend when I say this like I agree with you I used to be like that as well and I think we've got this such this we've we've got we're surrounded by hustle culture of work work work oh god guys look at me logging in at 10 p.m still still on my laptop. Not everything's as glamorous as you see. Still working away behind the scenes.

I don't do that anymore. No. I fucking love not working. Same. I love fitness. I love health. But I also love just not doing anything. Yeah.

And just having fun. So I used to make myself. So I actually like being in a routine because I've realised that it just is so much healthier for me mentally. And if I'm organised, it's better. And actually, I do work really hard. But in freelance world especially, it's like the more you're seen to be working, the more people think you're achieving. But actually, when I was doing that, trying to like go to every single event, go to every single thing in the world, I was so tired. And it impacts your mental health.

I wouldn't, my work was shit. I couldn't do anything. And you start hating your job. So why are you a freelancer if you're not, if it makes, this makes sense to you, why am I doing this

if I'm not living the dream? Like you're doing this so that you're not doing a nine to five that you didn't want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what is the point of overworking

if you're not loving it? And just to throw in a different angle because I realise we're being quite disparaging about Instagram, it also is quite a lot of work and like it does take hard and it's not just posting I don't know it's really funny because I see both sides of it so on the one hand I'm like this is so ridiculous and redundant and loads of things in influence culture I find like really want to dissociate myself from them but on the other hand it's a massive part of how I got my career and it's it's so not the face of it which is why I think it's such a mess on social media when people get very embroiled in conversations

with stuff that's going on in the influence world because really there is so much there's so much that the public looking in I think we kind of get how celebrity works and like how film stars lives work but influences part of its charm is it's they don't know is the attractiveness of thinking that everyone's having this really charm life when actually it's really behind the facade behind that grid is a very it's literally like the behind the scenes of a movie set it's not what people think it is I think that I think there's two types of people I think there's the type of people who have absolutely no clue that people are getting like grands for a post they have no idea yes i agree they literally have no idea that this person is getting 5k to be supporting a like per post for like a protein drink. They have no idea about that. And there's others who think that all influencers

from like 100K to a million are making like triple figures. There's that. There's that side of it as well. Then there's someone like me who hates the influencer world, doesn't want to be part of it, but actually thinks it's actually quite difficult. Does that make sense? Yeah.

I actually think it's a lot of work. It's also not even just a lot. So also the money thing is really interesting. No one knows how much anyone else earns. I remember when I first started working, I would try and find out what people were charging. So I could, when I was in my first place, I charged like 50 quid

when I could have charged like 500 at the time. Literally. And I didn't know. And so, first of all, there's no remit. There could be someone with a million followers that charges 200 pounds because they've never spoken to anyone and they live somewhere outside London. And there could be someone with 10,000 followers who's got really engaged followers and they could charge, I don't know, a few grand or something. For a post, yeah. There's no, it's like the Wild West.

There's no numerical thing to it but also there is and i'm glad that i realized this we were talking about this before as well but there you can't put a price on freedom you know and it does it does it is amazing and if that's also if that's what you want then it's really inviting but if you if you get into it and you don't really realize what you're getting into which i think i started doing and then i've actually managed to shape it into something i want like the podcast and what I talk about if I hadn't done that and I'd ended up in a place where I had lots of more more followers or more like my my relationship with my followers my people that follow me is quite different but if you end up in like a fangirly place you earn loads of money and everyone's like standing you whatever I think

it can really fuck with how you see the world and because people get into it so young like people start doing this at 16 and become massive vloggers. Like there's that girl, Emma Chamberlain, who don't know if you've heard of her, randomly stumbled across her account. And she made a YouTube video that was like about, she's amazing at editing,

did this video like about how she had a mental breakdown because she was so stressed about YouTube. Oh my God. And it had like 16 million views or something. And everyone was commenting like, we miss you, Emma, come back to Instagram. She's living in like a four million pound loft apartment in New York. And I I was like this is sick

I was known watching she's itching a video about having a mental breakdown come back and people commenting like I can't believe you wouldn't tell us you broke up with your boyfriend like and people are so young especially for young people they're so invested and I think we're just starting to see how toxic being online is and I think there's stuff that's come up recently between like mummy blogs and other things that have happened where evidently there's gossip sites and these have been flagged a few times evidently there is a there's a mental health payoff where if you haven't looked at what you're doing and thought fuck actually I better put some boundaries up you could actually end up you might make millions of pounds by the time you're 40 but you also might really suffer yeah because it's so um um what's the word

unregulated yeah and you can't you can't it doesn't depend on your mood it doesn't depend on how you're feeling this is your job so if you're waking up and you have to perform and i know you have to perform in every other job. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio,

exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. But it's just not the same. No. Because you're performing to a whole load of strangers and you don't know when you're going to say something wrong. You don't know when you're going to do something wrong. It really, really comes at price. And I think you've got to decide whether it's worth it for you. For me, it definitely isn't worth it. No.

And even like, so no. And I had to do this thing where I had to like get around. Because I would think, I've had it before where I'm with my boyfriend. I'm like, I need to take a picture, but I'm actually in a really bad mood and he's like well let's do it I'm like but I'm really grumpy like I actually can't smile you know and just really grumpy I think I was hungry and I remember I remember saying to him this is so fucked up but I have to do this post because it was an ad and I actually couldn't and it was pissing me off because as much as people think it's so easy to take a photo it is but you're not taking

a photo you're doing it's a myriad of things that you're doing. And it's actually quite soul destroying. Like when you wake up and you just think, a lot of the time I don't want to wear makeup most of the time. And I did this whole thing on my stories about this where I felt so conflicted. Like I've got such a charmed life in so many ways, but I also, I can't be fucked to feel like

I've got to stay lean for my job. That's absolutely. For a photo. For a photo. Yeah, which you don't have to, obviously, but especially when you're a fitness Instagrammer, I literally was under the impression... What fitness Instagrammers who are thinking,

actually, I better take all my photos now before I eat or drink? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First thing when you wake up in the morning. Like, what the fuck? That's what I used to do. Like, it's just... But then you'd...

So what I would do before is you'd go, here's a picture of me from this morning. Bear in mind, I literally was so fucking lean. And then I'd be like, but I did take this before I drank and ate anything. I don't look this all day I mean I would look like that all day but you're so um you're so corrupt about what you look like yeah yeah because you post so many pictures because you're watching yourself constantly yeah you become you can't not become obsessed with the way you look yeah and I never look at my body anymore exactly neither do I neither do I because I don't have to. No.

And I'm happy. Yeah. I'm happy when I'm not having to go through these photos. Yeah. I don't even have to see it and I'm not thinking about it anymore. And I think that's a great way for us to actually promote health and fitness. It's not all absorbing. No.

It's not us going, look, guys, this is how I act. It's just this was a great plate of food. Yeah. going look guys this is how I act it's just this was a great plate of food yeah and also on the other side of it like I do think fitness instagrammers have created an increase in health awareness and I actually do think it's a really credible job and I've got loads of fans who still do it and I think it's amazing I'm just saying for me it was something I actually had to actively go I'm not going to sign up to this because I don't think it's going to be good for me even though it's an amazing career if you do it correctly.

And if you can balance it. I just prefer, for me, I prefer to do it in my, because I've got this in my real world, as in my actual job, I'm doing what I love. And when I started doing it on social media, I just fell out of love with it because I couldn't differentiate between Fitspo the online world and what I'm passionate about yeah and also yeah I agree and I train more now that I'm not posting my workouts online people think I don't train yeah because I didn't talk about it people

think I don't train I actually do still think I just teach a spin class yeah no like no I do stories in the morning just when I've been to the gym just so because because the reason I do that is I want people to see me because one thing I used to hate the pushback about influencers or freelancers

you can't do just one thing no no no yeah that but also people thinking that you didn't really do anything so I want to be like no I do 95 and I get up the same time as you

so you can go to the gym before you go to work because that's what I'm doing and I'm working the same hours as you even though I'm freelance it's more like a because what I would get is but you can go to the gym because you're freelance. Any time of the day.

And I could have more time. Actually, I've realised it is actually healthier to work when everyone else is working. Because otherwise I'd end up going to the gym at 3pm in the afternoon, go have a coffee with a mate, and then you're working until 10pm. And then you can't see your friends. You can't ever see your boyfriend either. So it's pointless. So I've actually realised it's better. So the reason for me doing that is more just so that people are like,

oh, she goes to the gym and then I get on with a job which is now not really to do with exercise. I'm just doing that because it's good for me and you can make time for it sort of thing, even though that's still a privilege. But do you know what I mean? It's more like trying to recognise that you could be a normal woman rather than I literally thought to be into the gym,

you had to be be that was all you could do yeah like that was your everything or that you have to be following a certain program or you have to be doing back and biceps on that day or that and that and now it's just so it's so I feel quite sounds stupid but I feel quite like the not hates word normal person as well because i'm genuinely nowadays i am genuinely just moving my body whether that's a run whether that's a full body workout whether and i feel so much more relatable than you know i'm gonna do a booty workout today i'm gonna do this today it's just it's not the way i train anymore i love it i love i love exercise i've always loved it but i've never loved it as much as i do over the last couple of years i agree and

also do you know what it was that pushed me more than anything to feel like i had to be doing all that structured training and stuff it wasn't instagram it was male personal trainers always that would be like in my gym. You have to have progressive overload. You have to do this kind of training. I've realised. You're not going to build muscle. No. You're not going to build muscle.

You're doing too much cardio. You're never going to build muscle. But what if I'm not trying to do anything. So even now the personal trainers in my gym still try and say stuff to me. I will go and do whatever the fuck I want. I actually quite like training glutes. So I'll train glutes. Then the next day I might just go do something else.

I might squat 70kg one day and the next week go and squat 30kg. And they'll be like you did 70 last week. I'm like don't give a fuck. I'll do glutes then the next day I might just go do something else I might squat 70kg one day and the next week go and squat 30kg and they're like you did 70 last week I'm like don't give a fuck I'll do whatever I want this is how I feel today

I just want to do this now and it's literally for movement it doesn't matter there's no goal apart from going to the gym sometimes I'll do 20 minutes biceps I'm like done

because that's all I want to do I love it but it was the the ego of male personal trainers and people online because men have dominated the gym space for so long. I think they really wanted to shout about it.

And I get it because they're not wrong. But what they're wrong about is... Your goal. Your personal goal. Most people... Maybe you don't want to build muscle. No. And I think we all fucked each other over by thinking we had to have this really specific goal.

And then everyone got so obsessed. And actually, I've gone through all of that. I've gone from not training to being so obsessed like doing a fucking bikini competition getting qualified as personal trainer being so regimented getting so strong and then going oh fuck actually i just want to i just want to exercise i just want to lift light i literally just want to go and just do whatever the fuck i want to do some lightweight yeah i don't like literally have no goal i did i can really. Apart from the competition, I can really relate. I used to get so worked up. Oh, my God, I'm going to have to lift so heavy.

I used to have such fear of what I had. Yeah, same. What I had in my mind that I had to squat. And am I, like, to the point of, am I going to get back up again? Yeah. And then I'd be, I'd literally be so sore. I cannot even tell you how sore I'd be. Because I don't, I still don't sleep very well.

And if you're not sleeping, you're not recovering. But I just, I just couldn't get through the mindset. Yeah, everyone around me, all the guys. No, come on, keep going. Don't, don't, you know, don't be weak. Come on, you can do this. Not really realising that actually you have no fucking idea what I need

okay so I'm going to try and segue that into a completely unrelated conversation well kind of about men but also about on social media

we get this we get a lot of the dominant voices whoever that might be so in the gym the personal privilege might be your male personal trainer

but on social media a lot of the time the people with the privilege are people who have privilege in life so whether that's white bloggers or influencers with a lot of followers and what we're seeing a lot of the time is accounts getting deactivated because people who have privilege in the position online are leveraging that privilege to quieten the voices of people who are probably speaking more truths a bit like us staying in the gym also it's not very interesting to bring it back to the

previous thing for us to be like what you do in the gym and i'll be like oh so sometimes i go for a walk um and then sometimes i'll do this that's not very sexy but package it up a wham bam program man stand on a bosey ball yeah yeah yeah but this is the same thing, I think, with social media. When you talk about things and you... I want to talk about your shadow banning. So you might talk about something which is really unsexy and be like, look, there is misogynoir in this or there is misogyny in this. And then those conversations get shut down

by people who don't want to hear it because it's not the right narrative. I get... I know we spoke about this earlier, shadow banning, people think it don't exist or that term doesn't exist. So let's use something that does exist. I get messages from Instagram,

maybe every couple of months saying, this post has been deleted. They'll say the post, the date. It goes against our community guidelines. Basically, someone's reported it um your account is restricted so that means no one can find me unless they're already following me um it doesn't come up in hashtags yeah so basically it's just visible to people who follow me and even then it's not really ever coming up in feeds what what kind of posts for example are the ones that are getting this is happening to you oh always always for me mostly it's the one about men

it's just talking about even even talking about toxic masculinity even when i was talking about men and being talking about men's voices needing to stand up for them got banned and what weird what's your following demographic do you have many male like what what i'm trying men don't really follow me but that's so weird because i've definitely spoken about that but do you think i so i think you do say things but i think you've got more courage than me sometimes i'll be trying to be so palatable that i'll caveat maybe caveat things so much so that there's no point by the end of it. Yeah, mine's a bit more like a,

I said what I said kind of post. But what is it, do you think that there is a racial element to the fact that I don't get reported for writing stuff or not? I don't know. Because I have definitely said some of the shit you've said, if not more. I don't know.

And it goes back to whether I'm in complete denial of my own colour. I've said this before and I just, and I need to really think about this, whether I don't see myself as a woman of colour because I've never felt it. I don't know i don't know but i get reported a lot i get um i've been threatened by instagram that my account will be deleted i know a number of other women in similar positions all of which all of whom are not white but this is what i mean every account has ever been deactivated or deleted that i know of due to conversations around and i don't know know what happens in other spheres, but a lot of the time I'm following conversations around some conversation to do with privilege, whether that's like toxic masculinity, race, whatever. And everyone who always gets deactivated will be the person retaliating to a marginalising comment or whatever. So someone will say something... Someone will say something who is racist, but that won't be taken down by Instagram.

What will be taken down is the, is calling out what that person said. So with that in mind, do you think that the reason that you got deactivated is because of a racial element? I'm not trying to grill you. I just find it. No, I think it's about being in the minority.

I don't think it's just about... So could you do a smaller account? Smaller account and I think male privilege. Because most of it has been about... But in the other situations, other examples of this yeah definitely about color definitely i wonder if it works on a medium of like it's how many verified do you have followers i think those things yeah but do you think that it's like say if you had 10 followers and five people complained you definitely get deleted but if you had 50 followers and five

people complained you wouldn't because of the is it Do you think it's proportional? Maybe, yeah. Because maybe that's why. Maybe the same amount of people are reporting my post, but it doesn't have as much gravity. I have no idea. And that's what's really scary that we'll never know. You will never know the answers. When you get reported,

when you send something to Instagram and say, you know, this is what's happened, you don't get a message. You don't ever get feedback. You don't get a message. You don't ever get feedback. You don't get a response. There's no customer service line. Who the hell are we speaking to? But it's interesting.

Well, actually, I get way less dick pics now. So I do think there must be monitoring. But there was a time when I used to get inundated with dick pics to the point where actually I would start to feel quite unsafe because I was like, what the fuck are you getting from me that you think I want this? Like, what have I done or said that makes you think? And at first it was funny. I used to think it was funny. and then at one point I didn't think it was funny so used to report more and I don't get them really anymore and I don't know if that is because my account has changed to be less provocative I guess you could say or if Instagram slashes it more or whatever but there are so many people breaking community guidelines in fucking massive ways

that never see repercussions back back yeah back to that thing on color i do know many many i know many many people i'll call them friends who who i've met online who will report abuse they have received like foul yeah foul abuse and instagram will reply yeah didn't go against community guidelines but then they will they will be deactivated for reporting for reporting it for saying for speaking up about it so yeah you you're right because it is happening because i've I've seen it. And it's really fucked up. And it's weird because I think, I basically think, and I say this with everything, but everything is a, what's the word? It's mirroring whatever's going on in society. But because of these powers of control, it's all being kept under.

But I think it's something we have to all question so much. And I think that social media is a really interesting vessel or almost like a little petri dish to watch it all unfold. Like, if we're all really conscious and aware and watching everything that goes on, rather than just like, it's almost like a microcosm where you can watch everything that goes on society mirrored and how the powers that be will just shut down conversations.

And like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I totally get it. It's actually a really clever way. Like a little big brother. Yeah. Kind of thing where we don't, if they don't like something, it will be shut down. And that's what happens in real life. And you won't ever get a reason why.

No. You're just deactivated. Like, shut the fuck up. We're going to silence you. Yeah. And that's really scary. So you don't have a voice. I think it's so scary.

Because I think that is basically like, so I do think there's so many things on social media which are really, really fascinating. And actually I think, I wish people thought, without sounding arrogant, I wish people thought more like me and you. What the fuck is going on? Like, why are you not thinking about this? Like, what's going on here? That people are getting silenced for saying something. It's actually, it's disgusting. It's like living in a totalitarian state

I think it's one of the things that's made me really want to back off because I really really think what the hell's the point yeah and that's how I feel and when it first happened to me a couple of years ago I was so upset by it um I was like shadowbound for about nine months I remember I was so upset about it when it first happened. Now, I just don't care. I'm like, oh, here we go again. It's quite funny. Yeah. I'm like, okay, here we go again.

Well, I save my content. I would never put all my content. So I always use my content on the podcast. So even if I think about saying something on social media, I can't be up. Yeah, because it can be taken away from you from tomorrow. Yeah. And that's what's scary about it. If you build your business solely through Instagram, it can be taken away from you and it's what's scary about it if you build your business solely through instagram

it can be taken away from you and you don't it's not yours it's instagrams but also i do think like in light of all the kind of stuff that goes on with social media it's we basically realize that even if even if it doesn't get taken away it's not you don't own your narrative as much as you think you do no matter what you say people can tear that up and i think if we let ourselves get invested luckily i think basically what's happened with you and it's happened with me and it's happened with loads of my friends is we were really invested in social media and now we've gone oh no this is what it is and we've compartmentalized it and we have a whole world outside of that but because of the comforting nature of feeling like you're part of something when you're online, if you allow that to become your reality,

when it'll hurt so much more when it gets taken away or when something... I just think it's a really weird place. I'm ready for it to be taken away. But do you not think something else will come up in its place? I'm ready for that too. But I'm so, like, ready for it. I don't think I will... I just won't be sad. No. That's what's it. I don't think I will. I just won't be sad.

No. That's what's weird. I just won't be sad. I'm that level of bored now that I just won't be sad. I think I spoke about this the other day, but Instagram is now fundamentally a shopping platform, so it's not what it was before anyway. Yeah.

And if you're an influencer, to some extent, what you're selling is your brand, even if you don't realise that you are. Yeah. So you're an influencer, to some extent, what you're selling is your brand, even if you don't realize that you are. Yeah. So you're always selling something. And so there will, I think, have to be, which is why I think people like TikTok, because it's kind of pointless. I don't really know what it is. I have never used it.

I see it on Twitter. Yeah. And I think because it's nothing apart from a genuine entertainment. Yeah. But obviously, I'm sure there's going to be brand deals or they probably already are i've never actually used it on there um so it's just a means of as like every time money gets into something it completely as we said right at the beginning it changes it and that's why people are so invested and get so upset when things happen influences because you know that

really without a following you wouldn't have the career or the life you've had and so people have invested their time energy and support into you and then you fuck up maybe that's why right so right before we started i was saying how well jennifer said on the podcast politicians get away with way more or like even just people who are really fucking important can say shit that an influencer couldn't but i just answered my own question it's because we may not felt that we've like voted for our politicians but we fucking vote for our influences like people get so invested in them yeah so that makes sense now why you face so much more rigmarole because you're almost like a crowdfunded and yes exactly you

you have created your living through your followers have made you who you are that's why yeah so it's different between like crowdfunding. God, what a responsibility. Huge. I hate it. It is. I just could not do that. I don't know. I think if you use it in the right way, it could be really cool.

So, for example, where do we draw the line? If you're going to be confident in your body, you're saying, you know, I can dress what I want. I'm a feminist, but. But then there'll be that person who says about fake tan. And then I've said to you before, so here's what's more confusing. What's more confusing than you wearing fake tan is someone like me wearing fake tan. Because someone will be like, what color are you? What are you trying to be? Because I'm already brown.

Typically, someone my color wants to be a bit more white. So in Iran, my grandmother or let's say a lot of the older generation will be like, the paler skin is way more beautiful. Don't get tanned. So someone like me, I don't know where I'm going with this, someone like me who's actually been brought up here and is surrounded by beauty standards here. I actually don't mind my color and I want to actually enhance it and feel more like a bronzed goddess. Where does that fit? Who am I offending now?

I'm trying to be a bit more like me yeah i think about this all the time you spoke about this because what did we speak about it because i did i ask you or basically i'd spoken about i actually don't um fake tan anywhere near as much as i used to and i think it is partly because of this so basically there's this whole thing gone on it was called like blackfishing wasn't it where there was loads of white um caucasian influencers who had changed their looks so much they actually you would have believed that they were a woman of color or someone who was mixed race like to the point where it was past cultural appropriation it was like they had dreads and they had they even they'd had they had appropriated black features to the extent

where everyone following them thought that they were mixed race and i had followed some of these bloggers and i thought they were mixed race anyway so then the conversation carried on going on and then they were like well everyone who fake tans who's white is technically appropriating black because you're making yourself darker and I got into I spoke about my stories and I was like I go this tanned on holiday so I could go on sunbeds and do it but I've decided to use fake tans I don't want to get skin cancer and I was like questioning like what as in like where do you draw the line how brown can I go

how brown can you go before it's problematic and actually now it has very slowly because I was like addicted to fake tan made me not want to because I was like actually it's fucking weird like why are we so obsessed with

changing the colour of our skin changing the way that we look it is really weird and obviously it's not the same in that like people who lighten their skin who are from a darker background, because that is racially oppressive. Like, the reason for those beauty standards is because you were told that to look Eurocentric or whiter. Yeah. But then the problem of it is white people are allowed to be darker, but people who are darker have to be lighter.

It's like we have access to being pale or brown. Yeah. Because you're allowed because of colonization but someone who's tanned the lot of the argument was like women of color going i fucking can't be brown because it'll literally be like viewed as being a not a good thing but white girls are out there there was some white women making money from natural hair products and natural hair refers to women with curly hair, like Afro hair. And they were being paid to promote these products and they were white. Yeah, you can literally have every other fucking brand and super drug,

but you're going to go and get profit off that brand. It's just, that is the problem. Like, leave it. Drop it. Go somewhere else. And that is so evidently problematic and racist. Anyway, but that is social media for you. People want to learn about body positivity from someone who's thin.

Yes. People want to learn about body positivity from someone who's white. People, that's social media. Do you think they want to learn it from them or do you think it's more accessible for them to learn it from them? Yeah, so because I think, so I actually talk about race more than some people might think I should, but only because I've, basically, I've never been so impacted by understanding something and how much it shaped my life

than I was when I literally started to learn about race and racism. So much so that I want to bring it up all the time because I'm like, if someone was talking about it all the time with me maybe you'd learn something maybe i would have learned it earlier rather than having to unlearn all the stuff and and i don't know what other work like i don't really know what to do but i also don't want to talk about it as if it's for me just make sense but what i've realized with you're right but then it doesn't that doesn't always work because like i can't i can't have an instagram account about racism i can talk about it when it's relevant but i doesn't always work because, like, I can't have an Instagram account about racism. I can talk about it when it's relevant, but I can't make a page being like, I'm going to.

But are you getting directly paid for that? No. Exactly. Yeah, okay, fine. People who are actually profiting off of a movement or something that is not theirs, whereas other people aren't. And the privilege within like the body positivity, well, it's not positive. The problem with people who talk about body positivity, which is a movement started by fat black women.

It's like it's a human rights, not human rights. And Jewish. What's the saying there when it's like a social, not a social movement? Yeah, social political movement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't, it's not, but it's not what it is on Instagram but it's the privilege it's the privilege of not knowing that

that allows them to talk about it and co-opt it because of the palatability in better commas of someone that is a white slim person and the problem with exactly again exactly what you're saying like social media mirrors the way the power structure has worked in real life so in real life i can probably get through more doors than a fat black woman not literally but like metaphorically because of accessibility social media works in that same way it favors people who have more privilege and this this is happening in every arena and this is why with the wokeness thing it is hard because i think that it's getting to a place now where I also don't want to, I'm trying to not say so much about wokeness stuff anymore because of this new rise of the wokeness Olympics, whatever it is. Yeah, I know.

You're trying to figure out whether, is what I'm doing helping or is it hindering? And also, is this my opinion or is this me being really... Trying to be a good feminist. Yeah. Because sometimes I'll see something and i'm like oh actually i don't know if i do agree with that but it's on it's the group of people that i'm i affiliate myself with on the other hand sometimes say and this might sound really problematic but i'll say it say a woman of color says something which i think is slightly problematic i won't call her out as much as I would a white woman because that could dismantle the whole argument. I love that you've just said this.

I love that you've just said this because I think it's so, I think what you've just said is really important. As in to say it or? No, what you've just said, that what you don't do is really important

because I'm one, I think about things like that a lot as well um and I've had I've I think what's great what is great about the situation is when you change your mind or when your own opinion changes because of what someone else tells you it's happened to me um I called out I called out Beyonce's diet yes Yes. From that homecoming. But you made a really good point about this because you were like, what was the point you made? What did you say again?

I called it out because I didn't think it was right. Yes. I don't think it's right that people, back then when I said it, I said, you know what, we really, really, we hold her up. We hold her highly. You know, she, you know, everyone loves Beyonce. She, that diet was problematic. From her video, I never saw the video, but I know what you're talking about. And someone said to me, one of

my own followers said, you know what? No, you just don't call out what a black woman is doing with her body. And I don't think I'd do that post again now. Interesting and i don't think i'd do that post again now interesting i don't think i'd do that post again i didn't see it as color and that is so problematic in itself i don't see color is such a problematic thing to say yeah of course you don't see color it's such a problematic thing to say but you know what what it is? It's exactly right what I said at the beginning. It's the difference between punching up and punching down. Now, the difference is with Beyonce, as much as she is a woman of colour, you're still kind of punching up because she's a fucking empire. Yes. And she's unbelievable. But I was looking at it as in she's

an influencer. Take responsibility. You have a lot of influence. I wasn't seeing it as colour at all. But you're right. The reason I say that I wouldn't call out, or another example, say someone in a really fat body says something which I almost know entirely to be true that's wrong about dieting. I'm not fucking saying anything because I'm a white slim woman. And if I go, you're wrong,

everyone will go believe me over that person, even that person has so much clout. If they say one wrong thing and I call them out, do you know what I mean? I totally get what you mean. So it's the difference between punching up and punching down.

So I will just not say anything on that one, on that cat because you don't fucking need me telling me that they're wrong because they've already got that from every other angle. Whereas if it's like a white man

saying something. I agree with you. Then you're like, well, you know, we've got, we've got, it's just a bit more, it's a bit more equal.

Yeah, exactly. I get that. I get what you're saying. And so with the wokeness thing, but then I do feel like sometimes, and I think we need to all stop saying this, I actually don't know what my opinion is sometimes because sometimes I'm like,

oh my God, I don't know if I do agree with this. And when I don't have an opinion, I just shut up. Yeah. But when, do you ever feel like torn between sometimes I want to know what's right and wrong, but both sides are so polarised and I am quite good at being

empathetic and seeing things on a really because I think I understand myself so well I know my good sides and my bad sides I never see myself as being good or bad so when someone does something wrong I'm quite good at questioning like that they're not evil they've just done a bad thing do you know what I mean or not I get what you're me I get what you mean I think I'm different from you I think I'm quite I think I'm quite I'm very empathetic very empathetic can you be empathetic and really judgmental yeah I've got more it's only because I'm very empathetic I've become more because I think I used to be so judgmental and so quick to when I was younger. And actually, as I've got older, and I do think it's a positive thing, I question everything because I would be someone that probably, for instance, I bet five years ago, I could have potentially said something like, all they do is talk about race. And I would not have understood why, one, that's not my fucking place to talk about when they're talking

about race and also of course they do and of course they do but I wouldn't have seen that so when people make mistakes

and things but also that's because you're honest you will say that now there are so many people in similar situations who will be like no I'm not a racist

I'm not a racist people just deny it that is what drives me mad. But I've learned now that, well, everyone who profits off of racists, so I still am racist even by proxy of being white in that I profit off of racist structures because we live in a world full of white supremacists.

And so that's why I think I've, it would be better if, yeah, I agree, because racism is seen as the worst term, but the irony is most people are racist, not because they are evil, but because they've been imbued with racism. They see it as, oh my God, I'm a bad person. Wow. They don't see it as, most of the time, you're not even fucking aware of it. No, it's institutionalized.

And you have to, it's something we have to unlearn. Yeah. Part of white privilege is that you haven't had to recognize the way that you've led back to what you were saying i do think something i'm empathetic but i do think some things are unforgivable yes i have empathy towards people but sometimes i'm just like you know what if you have where'd you draw the line between, we say so-and-so's mental health, they did that because, you know, they were in a really dark place. That can't be an excuse. Like, I struggle with mental health. I struggle with mental

illness. Mental illness is not an excuse to do something. You have to take ownership and when when we are saying someone so and so we should feel sorry for so and so they made a mistake think about their mental health you've really really got to think about the others who suffered and their mental health because of that so much more important i agree but then do you not think it's always almost cyclical because it's almost like someone at some point we've got to break the chain, right? Yeah. So say someone makes a mistake and we're like, well, we can't forgive you. And then they come into

like an awful spiral or something and then do something worse and someone else gets hurt. Surely, it's kind of like, it's completely off topic, but the prison argument of like, surely rehabilitation is better than the death penalty

or whatever. No, I get that. And I think we're in a moment in social media where everyone's getting the death penalty, which is like cancel culture get that. And I think we're in a moment in social media where everyone's getting the death penalty, which is like cancel culture. Okay, so we can't forget, we will forgive, do the work.

Yes. I think doing the work is fundamental. We can't forget. We can't forgive. No. We won't forget, we will forgive, do the work. Yeah. And I think it comes down to also...

Say sorry. Yeah, I was about it comes down to also own like... And say sorry. Yeah, I was about to say, learning how to apologise correctly. Ironically, my live podcast episode is going to be called Why We Need to Stop Apologising. But it's going to be about like apologising, taking up space.

But then we also need to learn how to apologise. I see this all the time. I'm sorry that you felt hurt. No, I'm sorry that I acted in this way. I now realise you can't contest someone's feelings. This is taking me so long to learn this. But if someone says to you, you hurt me, you have to go, I'm so sorry.

I will learn from this and I will realise that those actions are not something... That was a huge thing for me too. It's the hardest thing to swallow your pride. But when you do it, it fixes the problem. I didn't mean to hurt you. I didn't mean to do this. I'm sorry you felt hurt by my behaviour. Fuck off, that's not an apology.

Celebrities do it all the time, especially when it comes to racial spurs and stuff. They're always like this I'm sorry you felt hurt by my behaviour fuck off that's not an apology we celebrities do it all the time especially when it comes to like racial stars and stuff they're always like I'm sorry that you were offended offended you oh god it's like no that's not

that's not an apology yeah okay I think we've done we've covered everything okay if people want to find you online or

banhashahassan I'm joking that's not it it's just at banhass b-a-n-h-a-s-s and they can come and ride with you oh yeah they can ride with me at Ride Republic in Parsons Green or Dig Me Fitness across London um or PT with me in Fulham amazing thank you so much for coming on have you enjoyed it I've loved

it I hope there's something useful here no i think it's i think it's one of because i know you quite well as well it's one of the most like debatey ones i've had and that we have slightly disagreed on things and sometimes i don't always get that i hope it's okay no it's great thank you so much thank you so much love you bye bye Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute i do enjoy the number one feeling winning in an exciting live dealer studio exclusively on

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