Adulting - #5 Millennial Money Matters with Kalpana Fitzpatrick

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

In this episode I interview Kalpana- personal finance editor at Hearst magazines and consumer editor at Prima, Red and Good Housekeeping. We discuss gendered finance issues in the media, the importance of pensions, the gender pay gap and much much much more! I am so sorry for the sound quality on this episode I had to do lots of witchery on it to make it work- I hope you don't mind! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi guys, welcome to Adulting, the podcast where I pick people's brains about all the things you're supposed to know from the mundane to the taboo, but it turns out that we actually don't know a lot of these things. So today's guest is Kalpana. She is Personal Financial Editor at Hearst Magazines and Consumer Editor at Good Housekeeping, Red and Prima. Hello, Carpenter. How are you? Hello. I'm good. How are you? Very well, thank you. So could you tell us a little bit of how you got into it and how

you have so many roles? Oh, well, why I have so many roles is just because I'm a bit crazy, maybe. I don't know. How I got into journalism, full stop, is, well, one, a lot of determination. Yeah. You do need that for anyone wanting to get into journalism. And so I actually started on a, what I call a pension's journey. I started working on a title at the FT group called Pensions Week, which I actually loved. It was a great starting point because it really sort of, it was such a great training ground to become a real news journalist

and I loved it. But then that's how I also fled into financial journalism. Yeah. So I did that and I moved around the FT quite a bit, doing various things and also I started writing a bit for the newspaper, et cetera. Amazing. And then I went freelance and that's when all the excitement happened

actually for me. So the reason I actually went freelance, one's when all the excitement happened actually for me so the reason I actually went freelance one I thought it was really glamorous that you know freelancers sit on a sunbed and sit by the pool while they write articles it's not like that at all but I was also pregnant at the same time because I've got two children and it just felt like the right time to get them try it and I'm really glad that I did because I actually in a way got to reinvent myself as a journalist because I went from writing for a b2b to start doing more personal finance stuff and was it always finance that you were looking to write about how did that become your niche area um probably by accident I actually wanted to be an investigative journalist where you know you go undercover and yeah so So finance was something I actually fell into,

but I ended up really liking it. So I just carried on with that, with my freelancing. And actually, with my freelancing, one of the things that I did do is I created a blog, which is called Mummy Money Matters. And that was, in a way, a turning point for me because the pickup on that was so high. Yeah.

And I ended up doing a lot of TV work. I started working for a channel called Super Sprimp Yeah. And I ended up doing a lot of TV work. I started working for Channel 4 Super Spoon. So I started doing more generic consumer stuff and more personal finance as well. And then I actually did do some freelance with Good Housekeeping. And then, you know, build your contacts over time. And I've been doing it for quite a few years, so. That's amazing. It's so interesting.

But what I think, where the gap is, because I think it's great that you're right. You went into an area that had so many more people reading, consuming, taking in. But the gap seems to be for this kind of information in your 20s. I mean, I know there's good housekeeping and things like your blog, but maybe people in their 20s or late teens aren't taking in any information about finance, especially girls. I think the millennial generation, we feel women, especially maybe because of the way that finance is gendered in the mediaial generation we feel women especially maybe because

of the way that finance is gendered in the media feel a little bit lost when it comes to money when you say gendered in the media do you feel that it's too directed towards male readers or yeah I think when you see like a men's magazine it's like invest um how to like double your hard earned cash and then women's magazines are like spend splurge yes so there we have actually seen research on that in the way and the terminology in the press is used and it might just be national newspapers or magazines whatever it is um I actually feel that it's more scaremongering what you read about in national newspapers so actually when you read something and it's so scary you're going to just shut it yeah and walk away from it why would you listen and actually um but now I and

also money's always seen as a taboo subject and definitely parents right so um my parents were actually a little bit open and certain things but other things that we just didn't discuss so I think you pick it up from your parents, actually, rather than the media. So if your parents are going to be open and talk to you about money, you're more likely to do that as well, and also with your friends. Yeah. You don't go out for dinner and start chatting about bank balances. But what's happening, I feel, within the finance industry as a whole

is we've got this whole new innovation companies coming up, FinTech, and they're launching all these amazing apps and it's gamification, and that's really targeted at millennials. And actually, that really is a talking point because if I've got a really nice app and it's all about money, I'm going to talk to my friend about it.

Hey, look at this app. Look, it's telling me I'm doing this and it's brilliant. You should get it as well. And these new challenger bags are actually very targeted towards millennials. So without actually naming any, some of them will, again, bring in that gamification into it. So, you know, you can literally put pictures of your goal

and it's something to aim for. It's so visual and it's really changed. It's not the high street anymore. Yeah, exactly what you mean. So I think the world's changing. Definitely. So I think, and they are talking to millennials and millennials are so well researched at the moment and um so they are targeting millennials to a certain extent but women as well and women we have so many different life stages you're right you know and and you know you can have a child in

your 20s you might have a child in your 40s. And that's just so important to be able to talk to women in the right way. And that's something which I am doing at Hearst now, actually, is working on a financial proposition where we can talk to women of all ages. Definitely. And in their language, as their friend. I saw something that you tweeted, actually. It was from one of your articles. I think it might have been an actress that said it, and it was, I want to teach my daughter that she can earn money so that when she's older she's never trapped in a relationship with a man and isn't financially dependent.

How do you think the economy has changed in terms of more women going to more high-powered jobs, or not even high-powered jobs, just earning enough to sustain themselves, and how do you think that's changing the economy or changing the way that money should be managed in media in general life well I just think at the moment generally um and it is people it's me as well that had said it and um I was just quite you know I I really love that quote no one no one should be held back by money no one should be forced into forced feel like they're forced to stay in a relationship because of money. Wonderful. What's changing? I think, yes, women are going into more high-profile jobs.

Obviously, there's issues with gender pay gap, but we were so aware of things that we weren't maybe 10, 20 years ago. And actually, young females today, I feel they are a bit more clued up. They're not as clueless as people might think they aren't clued up they do realize that there's a future and I want to be independent and I think I see a lot on social media you see the hashtags or like you know women who can yeah and it's just actually it's really inspirational for the young girls out there to say yes I can and I am going to do it and we see such positive role models out there yes and I don't feel any of that existed actually I don't think that existed for me when I was a teenager no I didn't see that 100% I spoke to my mum on

one of the previous podcasts and she said the same she'd never seen really been around women who were going out into the workforce and putting their career first which is really interesting and I agree I think there's a massive call to action for women to have more autonomy and work. But where I think there might be a bit of lack of understanding is there's the want, but there's no real grounding of understanding of how do we invest our cash? What is the real importance of investing now for the compound interest in the future?

And I don't necessarily think that whilst, yes, we all want to be really successful businesswomen, there's a lot of bits underneath that maybe we can't haven't put together sure I think there's a definitely a lack of financial education and that has been discussed in politics and actually government isn't really doing much to address that and I actually believe that financial education needs to come to school yes why should you come out of school knowing what investing is yeah and unless you take the initiative and go and find out yourself who's going to tell you about it and that's actually that's where you know someone like me comes in this I'm you know seeing it as my job to educate and empower women

to take control of their money be in charge of it and actually one of the things that really annoys me is when people feel that they are taking control of their money by putting it in an average bank account and think oh yeah it's a little bit of interest and you know I spend this much and I do this and but that that long-term investing when you when you're so young and I'm going to touch on pensions and I know I wouldn't yeah but actually when pensions is something that I learned that when you're really young you just don't see it as an important thing and the word pension is actually quite a horrid word I think it's quite scary when my auntie said this to me maybe last year said you really think about doing a pension I was

horrified I was like no way because I think people associate that with with negative connotations whereas actually yeah I'm dying um but actually it is a really positive thing that we should all be thinking about now really yes so 20 is absolutely ideal time to start putting away for a pension but who which 20 year old wants to put money into a pension because actually what they want to do is actually I want to get onto the property ladder right um I want to retire before I'm 40 so I'm looking for a way to get rich quick and you know but it's that there is a knowledge gap and that totally has been addressed in so many different ways and one of the things I'm doing is actually at Hearst is

really writing articles where people can look at it and think actually I can act on that and I understand why it matters where and it's just small implementations yep and again I think there's a lot of people in the finance industry that are doing a great job. And the inspiration is actually there. It's building. It's getting there as well. It's just spreading it out. I met three high-profile CEOs in the last month. And actually, those women would not have been there five years ago.

No, that's incredible. And they're leading the way, and they appreciate that. We're going to talk to women. Actually, it's been really scary, even when you pick up a leaflet about investing. Whatever it is, it's so scary. It's so boring. It's so dull. Why would you?

But aside from it being scary and maybe the knowledge gap as well, there's the problem that people just don't have any money. Millennials now, there's articles being like, set to rent forever. And whilst we've got the problem of this huge chasm between the ripped and the poor, social media showing people these luxurious lives that are so unattainable to most people how does your average joe millennial what

age can we expect to be financially independent because i think i mean i am financially independent technically i pay my own rent my own rent i pay my own bills but there have been times especially when i was at uni when i'd run out of money and have to ring my mum or dad and say i need 50 quid to get some food. Yeah. And that's not being financially independent and that seems to be a trending that that's going on later into your adulthood than before. Absolutely. I think it's a lot harder for students these days as well because obviously we didn't have

student loans before, we now do. Property market is just out of reach for a lot of people. How do you say, can I just tell you how I did it? Yes. So I, well my parents, I mean I didn't grow up in a privileged background or anything, my parents didn't, you know, hand me pocket money, it was really as and when they had it, they'd give me some if I needed it, it was really when I needed it, I didn't like that, but you know, it was the way it was. No, yeah. But I was so determined, I don't know, it must have, maybe it was embedded in embedded in me I don't know but I wanted to be independent so actually I went and got a Saturday job and that was when I was 15 because you could start working and yeah I was 15 I applied for loads of retailers just a Saturday

job and my parents were like yeah if you want money that's what you can do yeah and I worked all my school holidays and every Saturday I used to do that but I never ever learned to this day I've not learned how to save I worked from when I was like 14, I used to work at a local there was like a wedding place, it was amazing actually because you used to work like way more hours than you're allowed to but you'd get so much money from that one weekend but I never, I don't know where

it's come from, I just have never learned how to save I've got really bad, I actually am probably one of the worst people, I really need this advice more than anyone else. It's really, can I just ask, where do you think your money goes? Because is it on needs or wants? There's a big difference. I spend, I think what it is, I actually spend most of my money on food. It's just me not being practical in looking for ways to not buy, so I'll just buy like asparagus that's

like £1.90 you know it's just almost me being really stupid and not forward thinking I don't necessarily spend that much on clothes it's mostly

I think literally it's like all food when I was younger it was doing things it was seeing friends the reality is I had a really

interesting stat and I'm going to see if I can find it actually we consume way more than we need and that's actually whether it's clothes food whatever it is yeah just have too much well i want i wanted to talk about this i think this is one of the

other problems with social media is especially when it comes to fashion and fast fashion there are so many things that people are buying these youtube like fashion hauls and stuff it makes people think that i've got to constantly one this whole thing about outfit repeating girls think you need a different outfit for every single day to the point where we're buying so much stuff which is one bad for the environment in terms of the cheapness the quality who's making it yeah but also how does it impact the economy if we're not investing in more expensive more sustainable products if we're buying throwaway things what kind of impact does that have well there's an environmental impact as well and it does affect your bank balance because we've got cheap clothes around us now primark h&m

zara whatever it is yeah you know and it's how many black t-shirts do you have i don't know yeah probably like six or seven do you need six or seven probably not no you're probably better off investing in one nice little i know you know and I I get I get that because we we are living in a culture where we are just overwhelmed with things being thrown in our face and we just consume and consume yeah I I and I'll be honest when I even though when I had my Saturday job um I was quite good at putting x amount away into savings and see that's beyond that I genuinely I was very controlled but I got that from my dad and I'm see that's where that I genuinely I was very controlled but I got that from my dad and I'm see that's where I didn't get it from my dad it comes from the parents yeah

it comes from the parents and it's also about goal setting my goal was I want to um drive and my parents were like well we're not going to pay for your driving lessons yeah drive your drive um but then when I did pass my test and I was like I want a car and I I just I wanted you were making those small investments in yourself yeah so and I wasn't investing at the time no one told me about investing so I was putting it but the interest rates were quite decent then so it was fine and but I did go and buy like these tops and do you know what actually they meant nothing now I look back and thought actually I wish I hadn't spent that money and I probably wore them once I am because they. Yeah, I am bad because I do love fashion.

I do like clothes. And I keep saying to myself, and you know what, my mum said this to me for years about having like a capsule wardrobe. We just have expensive things. But the other problem with that is that's not attainable to most people either. To buy something, whereas most girls could afford to maybe buy a £10 top and H&M once a week. And that fulfills that need that we created to just keep buying but we don't need it but capitalism is so prevalent and overwhelming for everyone exactly I just think we as consumers not just millennials any age yeah we have way more than we ever need we just do

and also we don't repair things we don't fix things we we throw them away if your socks got a hole in it um okay I'm gonna admit I don't ever repair socks I can't say for the life of me but um you know you you throw it away you just go and buy buy buy buy it's just so much so easy to do my dad was saying this about darning a jumper the other day when I was with my boyfriend and I'm like what's darning and then he then proceeded to start darning his jumper and we were like okay but yeah it's very true you get a hole in something you'll be amazed at what you can learn from your parents I actually grew up my parents came from India

in the 60s so I was the first generation born and bred here but for them they came with nothing and they were building a life as well as bringing up a family and I watched them at their times of struggles and I think maybe because I've seen that, I just feel, well, I've watched you struggle.

And I've seen how hard it can be. And I think you do learn from your parents. Definitely. But you also pick up the bad things as well. I'm not saying millennials should blame their parents or anything. But there is a lot to be said about how you're brought up and what you learn from your parents. The baby boomers.

Baby boomers. Yeah, with the baby boomers. Obviously, that was a generation of all the loans and all the banks just giving out money. So maybe that is maybe played in a little bit to the millennial idea of just shop, shop, shop, shop. Yes. But also, you know, you're asking,

how does your average um getting savings one of the things everyone needs to be able to budget uh you need to know what money you're coming in what's coming in and if you want to be independent yes you might want to go and get a part-time job but what do you do with that part-time job money do you just go and buy shoes every week or do you go out for beers do you have a goal do you if you've got a goal and you can be quite serious about it, and don't get me wrong, I think it's really important to enjoy life and you should ultimately enjoy life,

but if you do have a goal and you do want to buy a house, then there are things that you have to be willing to do. Make sacrifices. You spend a lot of money on food, you say, so do you plan your meals every week? Do you have a little shopping list or do you just go to supermarket pick up these pick up how much food goes in the bin and you know it's hundreds of pounds it's if you're talking about the worst thing it's food i've never i never

actually said things like i'm very gonna eat something but it's when i go to i should go to little which i normally do or brits market and i buy it but it's when i'm coming home and i go to one of those like tes, the little ones, it's more expensive in there, I swear. Oh, yeah, they cost more. Yeah, they do. And then I buy, because I'm like, oh, maybe, did I buy that?

And then I'll buy random things I don't need. Because if I was good, and my boyfriend every Sunday does his shop at 11, and gets exact shopping, and it's like, that's his budget, then I'd be fine. But I'm just a very disorganised person, so that never happens. There's a lot to be said to being frugal know my mum was always she brilliant with never throwing food away

and that's something I've learned over the years and then and you know being a mum of two children who don't always want to eat everything that's on the table really annoys me it's like you know I was never allowed to get away no I had to stay at the table until I finished it which I think has scarred me and so now I will always finish always finish. My plate was taken away because I just sit there, chat, chat, chat. Oh, really? I was like, right, I've had enough of you. Oh, no. I was like, I do want to eat it.

But it was, yeah, I just feel that, you know, there are things that everyone can do. And in terms of, you know, being able to save, like I mentioned those apps earlier. Yeah. We, there's technology nowadays that it wasn't there before there was no help you had to physically go into a bank account and make that active decision to put money away and save so you're right the information really um but now it's on the phone yeah just tap tap tap and actually I'm going to mention a um there's an app, I'll tell you about it, remind me to tell you which one it was. And what it automatically does is, I think it's Chip, this is Chip, and it shifts money into savings automatically for you.

So it looks at your spending and it says, okay, this amount should be able to go into a savings and it automatically does it for you. That's so good. And it's actually really good and I know a lot of millennials actually using that and just saying actually and there's similar apps for investing as well and they're just so good. Because I know certain big corporation companies will

if you pay a bit of your salary they'll match it into like a pension, don't they? Yes, so every company, basically. If you're working and you're offered a company pension, please don't say no. As I was saying, you should be automatically enrolled if you're earning over £10,000.

Yeah. And you can opt out, but if you don't, you will get automatically enrolled. So I've come across 20 year olds who said oh I don't want to put money into pension you know I could do better things without money you won't miss that money after a while and actually when you're 60 you're going to be really grateful that you did that so and that's just something I would say to anyone if you're working just say yes to that pension because actually your employer is going to give you some money and that's free money because if you don't take it that's it no one else true I kind of spend whatever's there so I could have a month where because I'm self-employed

but I don't earn that much and I'm fine I'm just really really frugal but then the next one then I earn a bit more yeah and then I just kind of spend whatever's there and I don't know I think this mentality is instilled in me from shemmed concepts that I've been so, like, I've had to, like, unlearn growing up. Do you know what? There's just the simple term that I think everyone should have in them is pay yourself first. Yeah.

And that pays, put it away. So true. And then spend. Spend after you've saved. Yeah, that's really good. So why spend all your money? Oh, I didn't get to save. You should be putting that away and saving.

Yeah. So let's just say you've got £200 for a day, X amount into savings. And if you've budgeted, you should know what your needs are. Yeah. So obviously take that into account, do the maths. X amount goes into saving. That's my spending. That's all I've got.

I'm saying it's as simple as that. I appreciate that. No, it is really simple. When you simple freelance yeah um money can fluctuate yeah but you know you go by what you get in each month and you've got savings but but then also building an emergency fund because things go wrong yeah you know whatever it is um you know you mentioned a boyfriend I don't know if you live together or not but um if you did and something went wrong you decided you know you mentioned a boyfriend I don't know if you live together or not but if you did and something went wrong you decided you know yeah again what we were talking about earlier can you walk out on your own or you find that you're dependent on someone and I'm so so passionate about every girl being able to stand on her own two feet and actually I've had you know

a family member who who hasn't been able to do that and sort of said, you know, well, I can't stand on my two feet, I feel a bit trapped. And it's not nice. I had a friend contact me recently who had been abused and she's out of the relationship, but she said, I was fine, that she was dependent on him. And what do I do?

And it's a shame because I think that actually is a very common trope in our parents generation and a lot of women were stuck in relationships where not only that but maybe really overarching religious ideas as well which kept them in marriages and things like that and one of the most important things you can do you're so right is to just make that security and i think maybe the cusp of the problem is really that people just don't put it at the forefront right now because I think generationally we are a generation which is kind of in some ways revolting against the system in some ways kind of saying I don't want to do what's the done thing actually but you do you have to take responsibility and you have to live for today yeah everyone's got the attitude whether like we're just going to live our best life yes have all the fun which

is amazing but simultaneously save but you've got to like balance that you know people say money's not everything but it's a lot of things yeah and it's a lot of currency that keeps us alive it's the the confidence that it gives you it's the independence that it gives you it's the power that you feel by having that control yeah knowing that you put money away. And, you know, anyone that's listening and saying, oh, well, you know, I don't want to put money away for 10 years because I need it now. Well, I went backpacking a few years ago and I don't know why. I was at the time I was working at the FT and I took a sabbatical. And I just thought, you know know what I've got this money

because obviously I'd be very good at saving and but I don't want to take all of it with me because that would be a bit silly so I didn't know what to do with it yeah so I just thought actually you know what I'm just gonna go and put it into an ISA and I ended up putting it in the stocks and shares ISA it was two thousand pounds which was quite a nice sum to put away actually and I just felt when I come back just in case my job's not, I've got a little bit of money to play with. I haven't touched it for about eight years. It's now worth almost £6,000. That's the power of investment.

And that was just £2,000 with very little research. It was just the stocks and shares I saw. And would it have earned that four grand's worth of interest? Probably not in that space of time. So it's nice to hear what other people have done. So, and actually, if you're young, the sooner you do it, the better. And it's the same with pension.

The sooner you do it, the better because it takes that time to build. But with the investments, if you've got that money, do it now because you've got the next 20 years potentially. If you just forget about it, you can even just put by a really small amount even if it's like 5%

of what you're getting you don't need to put a lot because the whole point of investment is that the longer you leave it it can grow you know there might be

times when it dips but then you know it gets reinvested and it grows it's just letting your money grow it's being clever with it and investing is

something I feel everyone should do definitely so everyone's listening probably going how do I get into this so what I'm going to say is they're probably

going to ask you how do I invest well actually if you haven't got stocks and shares ISA and I'm going to say ISA

because that's tax free and the current limit is £20,000 that doesn't mean you need £20,000 it could be at least £1 yeah

put a small amount into that every month if you can even if you put £20,000, it could be at least £1. Yeah. Put a small amount into that every month if you can, even if you put £10. Yeah, that's something. That's going to be money that's going to grow at a faster rate than any bank account will give you. And yes, there are risks, I have to say that.

Obviously, you know, but if you're looking long-term, it's almost certainly always going to do you better. So that's, I completely agree. And now I'm going to go open life as soon as we finish this podcast. Stocks and shares one, not cash one. Stocks and shares one. Don't worry about it. You're too young to worry about the cash one.

So that investment's all one and good. Because I just said that's long term. Yeah. So don't, if you want that money in two weeks time, don't. That's not going to happen. Yeah, that's not what it's for. But in terms of going back to property investment, what do we do when the property market is so expensive and our income with that going on what what are we supposed to expect in the future in terms of being able to

buy or you're doomed no I know it is I know I have sympathy it is really really hard and actually a lot of millennials probably just say, you know, we're fucked basically. You know, what do we do? But a lot of people, what they do is some people are willing to stay with their parents for a little bit longer than they anticipated and maybe pay less in rent. Have you found that that's a trend? So like I was trying to look at, yeah, that a lot more people are having to be much more dependent. And do you think that maybe that caught this kind of lack of financial independence because of external factors is maybe what's causing millennials to be a bit more infantile in there or a bit more resistant

to growing up? Do you think it's all having kind of a cyclical effect? Yes, of course it is. Yes. But if you did want to be independent and if you could set yourself a goal to be able to put something away and but make it a goal you can get out and there are there are mortgages um that can you know your parents can act like a guarantor you keep your payments there's there's loads of different schemes around help to buy schemes it's helped to buy ISAs we've also got the new lifetime ISA so basically if you're under 40

I can't remember what the limit is but you put X amount of money in and the government gives you a 25% bonus and that can only be used for first property or a pension so it has to be used for that or else you lose the bonus so there's loads of schemes out there and I would say have a look at gov.uk and have a look at – it's gov.co.uk, I think you can mention that URL.

So – and there's a few schemes, but ultimately you do need – it's good to have a little bit of – if you're going in with zeros. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling. Yeah. exclusively on FanDuel Casino where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca Please play responsibly. It could be a lot harder. But I would say if you can use your parents in any way,

do use them. The bank of mum and dad are very popular. Yeah, definitely very popular yeah definitely obviously you know some parents don't want to do that and can't even afford to do that um but they're you know if you can approach them and say you know can you be a guarantor and is it mortgages that you could apply for or you know but it's just that getting that chunk of money i think some people also have issue with obviously after the recession so many people's parents were hit so hard. Of course, yes. You can't fall back on that.

I'll be honest, if I'd asked my parents, they probably would have said, well, no, we don't have any money to pay you. But I was always forced to be independent, and I knew that that was a question that I, the most I got was car insurance from my dad, and that was all I ever got. But then you've learned so much in your own time. I was just thrown into deep

but I didn't have it as hard as millennials they do today I didn't have to um try the house prices well my mum was saying they bought their first house it was all theirs at like 21 she was like it was amazing wow imagine can you imagine so that's probably not going to happen for a lot of people no today because I remember when I was younger, I really thought, this is ridiculous, I have a friend whose mum lives in Maidavell. Gorgeous flat. Obviously, I'd never be able to afford that. But I literally thought when I was like 14, I was like, oh, I'll just, when I'm 18,

I'll go to uni and then when I finish uni, I'll have a flat like that. I'll never, I'm 24 now, I could, I don't know when I'll be able to buy a flat, let alone one somewhere like that. And it's really funny because your concept of of it's just the timeline's been very stretched from what you expect. Of course, yes. I think most, I think as we're starting, it was like most people expect to be financially independent by the age of 23. Yes. It's really not the case.

Absolutely, no. It is really difficult. And actually, I know a lot of millennials who do live with their parents. And partly that's some of its cultural as well yeah because I grew up in a culture actually it's quite normal to live with your parents until you get married and if you're and shockingly if you're a woman you you go off with your husband and live with their family yeah and then if you're bloke then your wife comes and stays with your family it doesn't quite happen but it still does and a lot of them are millennials because they realize well actually we'll we want to get married but we can't really afford to go and buy our own

house so we're gonna live with our parents yeah do you know what some people actually don't have a problem with it some people do um it's probably harder if you're trying to do that as a married couple yeah but at the same time you know if might say, I'm going to commit for the next three years or something. That's a good option. And stay with my parents. And actually, yeah, parents are going to have to work a lot harder. Yeah. In terms of helping their children.

And I think that's where a lot of millennials are going to turn to. The bank of mum and dad. Yeah. And it rocks. It does. It's very good. Now, we have to touch on, because I'm desperate to talk about it, just because it's so in the zeitgeist, gender pay gap.

Oh, yes. What's ringing up with you personally? Have you found out anything? I suppose within your industry, it's quite female-led. It is. So I won't talk about her specifically, but I'm glad, to be honest, I'm really glad that this is now out in the open and people are having to be honest. I'm quite shocked at some of the things I've seen. But what really shocked me is actually I was reading an article on Financial News.

It was the comments that were being made around it by certain companies saying, oh, yes, it was something along the lines of, you know, some skills and knowledge require higher pay. But it's almost like shooting yourself in the foot. Are you saying women do not have that knowledge? This is an argument that's really annoying. So they're like, it's just jobs. That's what really shows. Yeah, they were like jobs that are done by men it's just that men pick jobs that are paid more

and it's like no those jobs are paid more because men are doing them and it's also because go back go back to

hegemonic masculinity being in schools boys talk to play rugby all these ideas of like being fierce like doing things

which are very heteronormatively masculine eventually lead you to do these high powered jobs whereas women are girls are taught to be gentle and do art and be creative. Not that those

jobs can't be amazing. Yes, absolutely. But it starts very young, this whole idea of programming you into a... That, that gender stereotype, right, really annoys me. So I've got two boys. Yeah. So my son, who was, he's just turned five and actually he was four when he said this, I told him, get your pyjamas on, get in bed, you're getting on my nose. And he's just turned five and actually he was four when he said this I told him get your pyjamas on

get in bed you're getting on my nose and he was like why and he goes because I'm the boss do as I say and he just looked at me in the face and said

girls can't be bosses you're joking and I was like did he just say that where has he learned that at school that's what I mean where did he learn that

because not in my household so I was really really shocked by that actually coming from a four year old and his perception was in my household. Right, so I was really, really shocked by that, actually. Coming from a four-year-old, and his perception was that rooming kind of thing. So I said, you know, who's your head teacher? Is she a girl? He calls everyone a girl.

Yeah. Yes. Who's your actual teacher? Girl. Is she the boss? He looked at me and thought, no, you know, she's still not the boss. And so fine, okay, so we'll address that.

But then my eight-year-old had come up with quite a sweet thing, indeed, because he reads The Week magazine. And I just love him reading that because I force him to read it almost because I want him to pick up on things. And he was reading about the gender pay gap, actually. And he said to me, money, just because men are stronger, doesn't mean women should get paid less. And I was like, yeah, that's true. And it's just like, money, just because men are stronger, doesn't mean women should get paid less. And I was like, yes, that's true.

And it's just like, it's just stereotypes. But the comments from the finance industry is what really shocks me. When I read that article. And is it lay people or is it actual people that work for these companies? Senior people in this industry have been asked to comment on their gender pay gap report. And I was so shocked. I was like, really? How arrogant can you be?

So I do feel like there's still a lot of arrogance out there. I just think the misogyny is so highly entrenched, especially when you're looking up at the top, at the big white man. Yeah. Inevitably sat at the top of some industry. Yeah. They are going to perpetuate these ideas

because that's what keeps them in their privileged position. That's how privilege works. But if you're doing the same job. You should get paid the same. They should be saved. There was a really good, I think it was Danish or something, advertex. You see with the children, they were made to do the same activity. And then the boys were given a full cup of sweets and the girls were given half a cup of sweets.

I do remember hearing about this, but I didn't actually watch it. And it's so good. And all the children are like, this is unfair. We did the same thing. Even the boys. And they divide it really equally. So you're right. It's taught. This injustice is not yes absolutely

a natural occurring thing yes and i'm i'm so so so so glad that this has come out in the open yeah um i you know i couldn't go back to where i work and know any better i won't know but um you know it's it's something that needs to be out there because actually you know women we're you know we're out there we're doing we're doing powerful um jobs we're doing powerful things we've got powerful opinions and actually you know what start listening to us yeah we matter and um so i don't know if you've ever come across a lady called helena morris she's got my children anyway um but she's quite often spoken about how she got passed for promotion

because she was having a baby. But that argument is not going to go down today. So, you know, if you're pregnant or you want to take a career break, for whatever reason, to raise a family, it's something you

should be able to do without being frowned upon but the point of equality is it goes both ways we're now finally seeing men getting paternity leave which is amazing I actually, I think that is amazing it's shared parental leave you're talking about

so what really annoys me about that is the men that don't take it up men haven't been asking for flexible working to the extent that they should do. And I really feel that they should go out there and ask for it a bit more because they don't see it as their job to ask for flexible working. I work flexibly. You know, I have two children, but my husband has to work flexibly.

But when I freelanced, he didn't have to do that. And he probably felt maybe a bit awkward asking. Like it wasn't his space to talk to him. Yeah, he was like, oh, she's fine. He's very supportive and he's working flexibly. But there's a lot of men out there saying, it's not, I do this, darling. You know, I can't ask for a working from home day

or I can't leave early. And I was like, actually, you ask, more men should ask. And actually, that's when the world will become equal. Exactly. It levels it out. I think that's what people don't see is you've got to look at both sides. And the shared parental leave actually was in the, I don't know which paper, anyway, I read a report about it and how fewer men are actually taking that offer.

And, jeez. Dirt. Dirt. So, the world is changing so and I just think women um I don't think anyone should step out in the world and feel that they're not confident whether it's about money or career whatever it is I think actually you know what you probably are very good at whatever you're doing and take control and you can and I just don't be afraid to ask if you don't know something if you don't know about investing I it's you know there's so much information out there nowadays um pick up a

magazine yeah you know pick up a magazine read about it um follow blogs and podcasts you've got to go out and search for it there's something I spoke about my response you have to be proactive yeah about what you're saying about having confidence and how it's so funny. Women are always asked, where do you get your confidence from? You don't have to have a reason to be confident. You're allowed to just have that self-belief. No one has ever gone up to any man and gone, where did you get your confidence from? Yeah.

It's just not a concept. And it's like when you're applying for jobs and women will only apply if they're 60% sure. I mean, 100% sure they can do it. And a man has to be only around 60% sure and he'll go for it. I think, seeing a woman like you with two children doing all these different roles,

being really successful. That sounds crazy. No, but it's amazing and it's so nice to see and also you're still being humble about it. If you were a guy, you would have stormed in here

and told me about every job you've had and how little sleep you've had and I think women need to be more like, this is amazing and it's so incredible to talk to you. I do get asked quite a lot, how do you we've had and I think women need to be more like this is amazing and it's so I get I do get asked quite a lot how do you do it all I mean last night I got home and actually I shot off to the gym and then I came home oh god so I got the kids

ready this morning and yeah yeah just stuff like that and it's it's it is really hard and but I don't feel anyone should say um can you have a career, can you have a family, or can you have a career and do whatever, and, you know, can I... Millennials, when we're talking about flexible working, actually, that very much applies to millennials, because actually a lot of millennials do want to work flexibly. So it's not just parents and, you know, families. It's everyone wants to have that.

There's definitely a change there's a changing culture there so as a millennial I don't feel that you should be afraid to go into a job and say can I is there flexibility in the way I work does it have to be nine to five tied to my desk because it's not I don't think it's just the mum or dad thing no no it's it is really hard and I just I just feel that the world's a very different place. And actually, if I was starting out in the workplace today, I probably would want some sort of flexible working. And actually, I don't know how you put it, but you say you're self-employed.

And actually, it's quite unusual to come across someone in their 20s who's self-employed. But a lot of millennials actually do want to be self-employed. It's more, it's increasing. I've actually got loads of friends who've just gone, actually, I don't want to work for someone who's going to dictate to me. I'm just going to go and set up my own business. I think it's becoming more,

we're quite an entrepreneurial generation, I think. And I actually totally, you know, I feel inspired by that because, you know, I have a blog and actually, you know, it makes a bit of a deciding move on me. I wanted to go back to work because once you've had children

and you've spent, you know, the last few years talking to children, you just want to go and spend time with adults yeah but some some people just want that balance they want to work they want to do I think there's this concept of like side hustle exactly so this is the words out of my mouth yeah someone spoke to when I did an interview she's saying that her friend runs a business and for the younger people he literally he lets them work four days a week they work slightly longer hours and he has to give them three days off because they all have other things that they do and they won't take the job me too and I think it's really good um but I do think that what's happening with technology and social media and

and just the way that we're making the world almost easier just means there's just more time for work yes and everyone's just working more and more and then if you have to have a side hustle and do your social media and be a mum and everything else, I think we're going to drive ourselves insane. You can do it, though. Yeah. Because, do you know what? I think employers are expecting millennials to come in and say, I only want to work four days. They are expecting that.

And millennials are expecting to go in and do that as well. I just feel that if you went in for a job and you look at the person interviewing you and you say, is that where I want to be in 20 years time? Is it? Well, if that person's inspired you and you really want to be there, great. I work with some amazing women here and I love it. And over the years, I hope that I will learn a lot from them, even at this stage of my career. But I've worked in places where I just say, want to be here in 20 years though you know yeah and actually I can see why it's nice to have that side hustle I think that thing's changed because

I remember speaking to my uncle once and this was a few years ago and he was and he was flabbergasted that one I didn't really know what I wanted to do and two I didn't necessarily want to do something definitely vocational. And he was like, no, you've got to work yourself to the bone basically and then retire. Because that is such an old-fashioned idea where you take a job, you get any job you can get, and as much money as you can, save, retire at whatever age. And we've gone, I think that's where this resistance comes in. Renny was like, no, I want to enjoy my job.

Of course. I want to have, I don't mind if I maybe don't make as much money I'd rather make every kind of minute of my day a bit more enjoyable do you feel like that's something that's changed um I think it's a bit a mixed bag and again it does really come back to how you've been embedded you but and your point of privilege as well yeah I mean you know I come from an Asian background and actually going into journalism was like what journalism yeah what on earth is that about you know um so it and um I just kind of you know I'm going to do what I want to do yeah and actually even then it was just I'm just gonna do what i want to do and see where it gets me in life and i just think it's it is important to work and i'm i see a lot of things on social media where

there's a lot of inspiration quit your nine-to-five yeah that's quite dangerous but what i say is quit your nine-to-five and you're going to be very unhappy when you have absolutely no money and a huge pile of debt. Yeah. Because that's the worst thing that can happen to anyone is where you're just so into enjoying life, you're so into, I want to do my side hustle and I like Hampshire because I'm just going to enjoy it and enjoy it

and actually what you're doing is building debt. I think you've got to have a good balance. I mean, don't be stupid along the way, if I'm honest. No, you're right a good balance. Yeah. I mean, don't be stupid along the way, if I'm honest. No, you're so right. Be sensible. Yeah. If you can be sensible in life, why, you know. So, yes, get a job, earn some money, build something.

So, if you do want to do side hustling, you don't know what it is. I'm absolutely into doing side hustling, no matter what your age. Do something on the side that you want to do. But don't just quit your job because someone's on social media saying look at me I quit my job

don't fall for quick get rich quick schemes because everything needs a bit of hard work and determination so I don't believe

in any of that basically I think there definitely is this idea that I have loads of friends who've just gone travelling and kind of haven't come back yet but at some, I feel like everyone's just putting

off, I spoke about this in the first episode. Yeah, definitely go travelling. But there's like a waiting room. So uni's like the waiting room where you finish school, but you haven't quite entered your life. And some people just kind of extend their stay by going travelling or not really. But at some point, you're going to have to enter back in and pitch in. I mean, maybe you don't.

Maybe you can emancipate yourself from everything, including capitalism, consumerism, and all the rest. Of course. I mean, I just, yeah, like I said, I think it's really, really important to have a balance. Actually, someone emailed me a couple of weeks ago and said, I'm really fed up with my job. I'm so fed up. And she was actually writing the blog. She goes, can you give me some ideas how I can make money from my blog? And I'm just going to quit my job I'm so fed up so and she was actually writing the blog she goes so I'm just can you give me some ideas how I can make money from my blog and I'm just going to quit my job and I was like

well what do you have in savings she's like well not much but I'm just so don't like my job and I said why don't you see if you can go part-time and then work on your blog but don't just quit and work on your blog and because you're going to be if you're sad now you're going to be very sad you've got no money and I said work part-time or build a you build something you know a basis to you know work on even with social media I think the problem is but as well obviously I work technically as a social media influencer I hate that but I'm also a personal trainer and I do like to do online coaching and I have to I don't get my whole, I wouldn't be able to afford to from social media just because there's certain things I wouldn't do at my stage which I can, the only things I can get are things I don't necessarily want to do kind of thing.

But I think people view it as suddenly you might notice someone pop up on social media and you think it's overnight. But people blog for years and years and years before. There are some people who are amazing and will get a million followers in a few months and make a killing. But a lot of people, for me, I did blogging for three years before it was really anything that I ever made money out of. And even now, it's probably just a similar income to my friends with quite normal jobs. And it's not actually a quick fix.

I think some people think now because it's instant. It's not instant. It does take background working. And it's pretty much around the clock yeah because you can't um just leave it no if you want it to um if it's going to be an income stream and we're talking about blog specifically there's loads of other things that people do i just don't look for the quick fix it's that's not what it's about i don't think that's the the life anyone no my opinion i wouldn't say that to my children.

Just, you know, sit around and hope that it will, the world comes to you. No, you go out in the world and you go and get what you want. That's the way I see it.

And it's an investment in yourself as well. If you take that time, it's all about your wellbeing and like finding something you love, fine. But you might have to work for the, you might have to make cups of tea for a month or six months as an intern

before you get to do the thing you want to do yeah I know that would be especially if it's unpaid it wasn't being paid and then you made loads of teas yeah um no absolutely and you know people I I get approached by a lot of journalism students and I'll how do I get that and I always say to them you know be determined yeah and don't just don't give up don't let and don't let other people put you down. Because I've been put down so many times in my life by family members or just people making snidey remarks about something like that. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it and I'll show you.

Because, you know, it's not just like, oh, talk. If you really want something, you go out there and you can get it. If you really want to say you want to be rich, go out invest your money don't go into primark and buy t-shirts every week yeah exactly um don't go buy go buy you know learn to budget learn to know what your needs are what your wants are and get that balance don't be afraid to work hard don't be afraid to save hard and just you know and have goals yeah know what you want because it's very hard to save if you haven't got a goal um I always see what I mean yeah I always think it's really important that you realize that whilst enjoying life's great you actually don't get any bounce back if you're not working things don't

like it's like food doesn't taste as nice if you haven't bought it you know like when you make something that tastes really good because you've made it yes it's like food doesn't taste as nice if you haven't bought it you know like when you make something and it tastes really good because you've made it it's like when you work hard you can't have the highs and the lows so if you're

the other pressure I think people find is a lot of friends want to go out every night you can be that person that says actually I'm not going to go out every night

I'll go out on Friday because I don't want to do that and you have to decide that actually I'm going to work hard so that I can play hard but everything is feels better and is more enjoyable when you've got a balance absolutely it's a bit like and I'm going to work hard so that I can play hard. But everything feels better and is more enjoyable when you've got a balance.

Absolutely. It's a bit like, and I'm not saying that anyone should really go on a diet. You know what I mean? But, you know, if you're trying to get into a certain, I don't know, let's just say you're going on a diet or you're trying to get into a healthier lifestyle. Yeah. But you're going out every day. Yeah.

Really. It's a bit like that with money though it's like well I'm trying to save but you're going out yeah pretty much every weekend yeah every weekend and it's not cheap so um I just think it's you know what you want in life and have those goals in mind because I always find it's really hard to save if you haven't got a goal I just I think it just helps mentally yeah I agree it's the same that it makes complete if you have to print a picture of us and stick it on your wall do it you know yeah and actually um when I um learned to say well I didn't have a goal actually when I was um probably about 10 when my dad took us to a high street bank account I put a savings account but it was um a passbook

so you can actually see I had that like a nationwide one I loved it because they put the little yeah and then you see how much you get and I really love seeing that figure go up yeah wow this is great I remember I used to get like 70p interest as well at every you get like a little bit of interest you'd be like really excited such a visual thing so true and it's a bit like that as you grow up I think you know it's the same sort of thing um you know just I'd say just go with the app because that's what you need nowadays. It's on your phone. It's at your fingertips. And just what you will just love watching your savings grow.

Download the apps like Chip, for example. And that's just one that I'm mentioning here. If you want to get into best students, one's like Moneybox, for example, automatically invest money for you. You have to look at things like what the fees are because you don't want them to be too high don't go to a high street to openly stock the shares for example okay and go to special needs like well you can ask me later you know there are things that you know do it right um and but i just feel everyone could get there with a bit of guidance yeah I agree and I think it's

just an active choice I think that's what you've got to do you've just got to actually decide that right now actually I am

going to take responsibility finance is something I need to think about I think for so long it's something that you're very

much not in control of that when you are a lot of people go I'm just I'll do it next year or I'll start when I'm older

yeah and it's that we do suffer inertia we everyone has inertia whether it's finances or you will put off things that scare you or just don't really interest you and we'll do it

and then once you do it you always feel better it's like when you're like oh I don't really know if I want to go to the gym then you go and you're like oh I feel so much better now I've just done that and it's just habit then once you have that sorted you know what I'm so excited to go home and like organise my finances now oh yeah

and you can just like phone me up and say help you and that's fine but you know what it's just like simple things and also we're you know

creatures of comfort aren't we as well we get too comfortable with things and it could be something simple and you don't know how and it's just so comfortable sitting in the bank accounts that you can go to now. There's just so much choice.

And actually, you can get one that serves you better. And I remember asking a friend saying, oh, how long have you been with XYZ? Oh, since I was 18. I was like, well, why? We could get from them. If you've got, you know know you could get a better service some sort of interest rate

it's like oh yeah but I just can't it's just been there ever since so yeah step out of your comfort zone be bothered step out of that comfort zone we all need to as well and it's a bit like that with jobs as well I suppose over the years you could get very comfortable yeah that's very true

and again I just feel everyone should have a goal for almost anything that they really want to do. Yeah. And aim high. Agreed. Yeah. Especially women. No more imposter syndrome because I think that's the biggest... You keep taking words out of my mouth. Sorry.

I get imposter syndrome. Yeah. I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be doing this. This is not me. And actually, you know what? what just I'm not going to say get over it because we all we do do get it but I don't feel that you should you know let that stop you really just do it anyway middle middle class white man isn't that saying but you know it's just um for me it's just I've always been determined. Yeah. And I always, you know. And hard work pays off, clearly.

And, you know, I'll work. Sometimes I do more than I should. Sometimes you go out of your way. And so you have to be clever about it as well. Yeah. Don't be stupid, you know. Don't go and work 12 hours and only be paid for six or something like that. I'm not saying that at all.

There's a lot to be said to be just a bit sensible. Yeah. I sound really boring now. No, you don't sound boring at all. A bit a lot to be said to be just a bit sensible yeah i sound really boring no you don't sound boring at all no it's not but i think i know as a mom you know i i do find it quite hard to sometimes my children are still quite young and it's very hard to actually say to them you know you can't have pokemon cards because they're ridiculously expensive yeah but trying to teach them that as well I think the problem one of the reasons we're like so disenfranchised from it is because we're like finance is boring finance isn't boring finance is actually really exciting when you think about it could be you get to go traveling or like

finance is really sadly essential in so many areas we need to stop being it's boring it's mundane because it's not it's going to be the power for you to do so many things. It is a power base, actually. I've, you know, I've been lucky enough to be able to save and have it. And actually, when I went travelling, when I went backpacking, I don't think I could have done that if I didn't have saving. Because actually, my mum and dad would not have funded it. Yeah.

And I wouldn't have wanted to go on a credit card. But having said that, credit cards are a good thing to have, just to build your credit rating. Yeah, I haven't got one yet, but I will do that one, I remember. Just spend a small amount on it. And you can put a direct debit into it, can't you? Yeah, pay it off immediately, so you're never paying interest. But it's just a way of building your credit score, and actually, that's something that can help you get onto a property ladder. Because when you apply for a mortgage, there's such a strict criteria now.

So actually, they will look at your spending habits and say, well, you're never going to be able to pay back a mortgage so so if you've already had something to pay back but if you've shown that you're responsible when you're borrowing yeah really helps build up that credit score and something that everyone should check yeah and um yeah so it's all um positive i hope really positive it's been so helpful i've really enjoyed talking to you i hope you've enjoyed it as well I know I've really really enjoyed it I feel like I've learnt a lot and I feel like a lot of our

listeners will have learnt things as well if people want to follow you more obviously you edit Good Housekeeping Prima and Red right? I'm the consumer editor

of Good Housekeeping Red and Prima but I'm also the personal finance editor at Hearst and do you have what's your Instagram Twitter

any handles we can follow you on so Instagram and Twitter is both at Kalpana Fitz that's K-A-L-P-A-N-A-F-I-T I'll pop that

I'll say that Kalpana Fitz yeah I think that's on Instagram as well yeah so yeah I'm quite responsive

on Twitter so obviously are you still doing your blog I do have a blog called mommymoneymatters.com Cool.

Yes. So people can check that out as well. You can check that out and find all sorts of information on there. And I'm very accessible so if anyone wants to get in touch

and ask me a question shout out on Twitter I'd say. Yeah, definitely. Perfect. Well thank you so much Kalpana and I will be speaking

to you soon I think. And thank you for pronouncing my name perfectly. I know. How great is that? Because my name's really hard so I know how well you know when people get you soon, I think. And thank you for pronouncing my name perfectly. I know. How great is that? Because my name's really hard. So I know how, well, you know, when people get it wrong, so I stress. I'm always very forgiving, so I don't worry.

Yeah. No problem. Thank you. Thank you. The podcast you just heard was recorded with Anchor. If you want to make your own, download the Android or iOS app completely free from anchor.fm slash podcast. That's anchor.fm slash podcast. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca.

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