Adulting - #50 Why We Should Stop Apologising LIVE PART 1 with Scottee & Char

Episode Date: December 19, 2019

Recorded live at the Boulevard Theatre in SoHo on the 24th of Novemberthis is part of why we should stop apologising... for who we are, our size, our sexuality and so much more. I spoke to Scottee (@scotteeisfat) and Char (@ellessechar) about pretty much everything in the world. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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hope you enjoyed the episode and I will see you very soon for part two. Hello. Are you guys all doing well? Are you excited? I'm a little bit nervous. I'm stressed. I'm going to be really sweaty under these lights, so please do forgive me.

I did do my makeup three times. I thought they might give us a round of applause. Oh, I know, actually. I'd say. Oh, I know. Thank you so much. So welcome to the first ever Adulting Live. Hopefully the first of many to come in the future. I'm really excited about the two guests I have with me tonight. I picked people who are just as chatty, fabulous and extra as I am, I hope. And as you know, this season of of adulting the question is why and tonight's question is why should we stop apologizing and so I'm going to introduce my two guests and get them to tell you a bit about themselves round of applause please so I am sure Elise I am the founder of an online platform called girls will be boys where

we basically pose the question is it always binary with regards to gender? And we direct and produce short films around gender. So the first one was about women that shave their hair. And I'm also a public speaker. Here I am. And I also do a bit of modelling on the side. Woo! Mmm! No pressure. I'm also a model. Okay, bitchy. My name's Scotty, I'm an artist. I largely make, like,

theatre shows and big performance pieces that are about the things that we often don't like to talk about around the table. So, stuff often like class sexuality sex aging radical right-wing politics you know all the soft stuff and then often I'm called and I have a difficult relationship with this an activist because I work with communities usually working class communities across the UK and Ireland and looking at ways of discussing the stuff and austerity particularly. Amazing well thanks so much for coming guys again so what we

want to talk about tonight is I think a lot of time we talk about how we're really bad at giving apologies I'm quite bad I was being a bit mean to my boyfriend earlier sorry guys but what we're actually going to talk about tonight is not apologising it's about standing up for times when actually we need to recognise our power and realise that we don't need to talk about tonight is not apologising. It's about standing up for times when actually we need to recognise our power and realise that we don't need to send emails that go, oh my God, hi, I hope this is okay, you haven't paid me for a year, don't worry. But just wondering if you wouldn't mind, it would actually be great because I can't afford to live. That kind of thing, which I think we do quite a lot.

So I'm going to ask you guys, what's something that you've recently stopped apologising for? And mine would be when I turned 18 around that time I realised I was going to stop apologising for having normal boobs and just stop wearing a bra because I feel like as a woman you're brought up to feel really apologetic about your body especially if you don't have like fake breasts which stick up and look to the sky mine just point in whatever direction they want to go and I learned to be like okay that's fine and that's something I feel like I've stopped being apologetic for recently what about you guys um probably just existing yeah um yeah I feel like I I got to a point where I was like just I felt comfortable

in who I was and well who I am and I just didn't feel like I needed to apologize for taking up space in any capacity um it's like that thing, like, there's loads of posts going around that are saying about stop apologising for existing in, like, certain spaces that you belong to be in kind of thing. So I think I just realised that, yeah, I didn't need to apologise for being in a certain space, regardless of whoever was telling me I didn't need to be there. And I just, I'm allowed to exist.

So, yeah, probably that. Yeah, I think, similarly, I spent allowed to exist. So yeah, probably that. Yeah, I think similarly, I spent a lot of time making work about fatness. And there was a moment within that where I stopped apologising for my fat arse not fitting into chairs a little bit like this one that's on stage today. Oh no!

No, but I felt like I had to apologise when I got on a plane and I was like, do you have an extent about? Just because the way that people react about your body when you've got a fatter body makes you feel like you have to be apologetic for it so it's not necessary that I feel like I inhabit a body that's always been apologetic it's I've been made to apologize for it uh you know like I think fat people are really great at choreography because we're constantly thinking about like the next term style that we have to get through and how we might like lambada through it sideways and try to do it whilst being stealth as well because people don't want fat people to be visible um but that's been

a like a really long journey of like not apologizing I think more timely is I've started to realize I don't have to be apologetic for being a socialist. And sometimes I can be a shit show, a word I can't even say, a shit socialist as well. I can be incomplete within that socialism. I think slowly it's felt like, particularly on online communities, when we talk about politics, to talk about socialism, we've adopted a very American attitude towards socialism as if it's a bad thing, as if someone's being robbed of something,

when actually what it means is, like, we're going to distribute it in a fairer way. And so I feel like, you know, in a couple of days, we'll stop being able to take applications for people to be able to vote in the general election, and I'm going to start to become less apologetic about socialism, I think. That's great great I actually sorry

sorry to interrupt your woo oh my god I'm apologizing again I actually was going to apologize I'm being awful because I have read read Sophie Hagen's happy fat and I should have registered that potentially might need a different chair so I'm awful but you didn't design the chair you're not an awful person like yeah but no it's like it's the world it's the world that's saying you need to be this size to to be in this space and when I say this space I don't mean literally in the space that we're recording this I mean in the world um you know there's a reason capitalism is sort of the reason because it wants to make you smaller so they can fit more people on a plane I think we've all made reference to the way that are the we physically fit into the wild and

apologizing for that and I think coming up to Christmas it's quite a pertinent conversation because usually this is around the time when people will be telling you you might gain weight be really careful around the quality street don't have too much go for an extra walk and I think that was one of the first times as you say like feeling liberated to be within your physicality without feeling like I used to apologize or not even apologize but I would tell people I was fat before I met them when I was younger because I felt if I said it they couldn't say it back to me and that was a way of feeling apologetic about my state and not like thinking that I could just exist as I was and I feel like especially on the Instagram world where I'm sure some of you might

found me that is something that goes on a lot. Feeling like we, I always say as women, but anyone that's got any kind of intersection of non-privilege will recognize that you constantly feel aware of yourself not being the perfect paradigm of what society wants you to be. And that's basically what this episode is going to try and help us shed that layer of shame. Because what we're apologizing for is our own shame which isn't our fault it's society did that make sense yeah good do you have anything to add about this when it comes to so your discussion like we talked about this the other night when we're out but about gender and sexuality is something which again is thrust upon us so then you might feel a bit shameful and awkward when you suddenly think oh

I don't know if I deviate slightly away from this thing that I've been given. How does it, when you were coming up with your work, what was it that drove you to look at the way that gender, because your brand is called Girls Will Be Boys. What drove you to get there? And how do you think that that is a shrugging off shame, that hard when you're figuring out yourself, your sexuality, how you want to identify, just that you can feel not valid in whatever you are. So I felt invalid as a bisexual for a long time because obviously we're constantly being told that it's not valid. But my work actually, Girls With Boys started from a fashion blog because I never dressed like a girl. So it was kind of like playing off the androgyny and then obviously I shaved off my hair and then I was like I want to speak to loads

of different women and find out their story and why they've done it and what their experiences have been with not fitting into um like being a woman do you know what I mean like as in like there's so much of your value placed in your hair and how you look. And I just realised that when I shaved my hair, I was like straight at the time. But when I shaved my hair, I was treated differently by men. And I just wanted to see if that was a one time thing or if deviating away from what you're supposed to be in your assigned gender role is happening to everyone else so that's why I explored it with oh my god she's bald um and then just with the way that I dress and stuff anyway and then obviously I came out and stuff and then I was exploring that I just feel like

I'm just constantly like oh what's going on here there's a constant coming out though right it's like yeah just come out once it's like you're constantly having to like own those identities because the world is constantly reading you as one thing and pushing you into a space particularly with sexuality and gender where people will make the assumption first of what they think that you should be yeah and then you have to apologize for being like well no actually no I'm not and then it just becomes awkward because of social codes where you're like oh my, I've got to tell this person about pronouning and that's going to bring up a whole thing. Or what if they're a tough?

And then like, so it's like, it just becomes like way bigger. Then it's just easier if we all just like wait for the cue to know or just to make the assumption that we're all just human. And until the moment comes when it's so desperate that you need to know someone's gender identity, that you do a pronoun round. Love a pronoun. The irony was, the last time Scotty came on my podcast, I thought I was being really woke,

and I was listing all of Scotty, like, my privileges, and then where Scotty had intersections. And at the end, Scotty was like, you've just assumed my gender, my sexuality. On a thing where I thought I was being really woke, I was like, so, you're obviously homosexual. You're a man. And he was like um actually beg to differ but also really love the 1970s homosexuals who's ever been called a homosexual past 1992 but we've got to be able I think we spoke about that in that episode where we spoke about actually

we've got to be able to be slightly clumsy with each other. It wasn't like you were saying, you're a man and you're a dirty gay. What you actually were saying was, oh, I think you're this. And so this is what I've dreamt up in my head. But we've got to be able to kind of get to a point where we can be generous with each other, as long as there isn't violence or attack behind it, I feel. And that's when I feel more generous with the emotional labor of being like well stop the clock let me tell you a couple of things yeah because I think and we

just spoke about this in my last episode but this culture of wokeness and having to know the right thing to say can either put you on the back end of lots of firing so then you feel like you have to apologize or also keep you really silent and I think we shouldn't feel apologetic for making using the wrong terms obviously if they're really derogatory then that's not that helpful but if it was a genuine mistake and it's the first time you said it and someone tells you and you change it I think that's absolutely fine and I think we need to not be so fearful of saying the wrong thing because right now it's gone great I think it was amazing I think we all were becoming really woke and now we've just become quite arsehole-y which isn't it's like it's the spectrum's kind of gone the other way have you found this in your work to do with gender and like

what have you found on a professional level like have you found it to have you been pitching to anyone I actually don't hang out with that many middle-aged middle-class white men which is great um but I don't know I think professionally a lot of people do have you come across any barriers to work or access when you're trying to bring forward a conversation which is quite in the zeitgeist but also quite new to a lot of people I think it's more so with when I'm doing work as in public speaking work rather than girls will be boy stuff um because when it's public speaking then it's me uh entering situations as a queer black woman and being faced with um being judged before I even open my mouth and then when I do open my mouth it's like oh she's northern and then there's like

another like layer of assumptions and I just feel like um I've had conversations before about for example white privilege to certain people and white fragility and I've been met with you know the whole well I just feel like I can't see anything right anymore. Like, what am I supposed to say? But then I'm always saying people won't judge you for just trying. You have to try. It's the same with, like, the pronouns. If you don't try, then you can't learn.

And there's so many things that even I had to try before I would learn about it. So that's why I have Girls Will Be Boys, because I learn from talking to for example trans people or non-binary people because I'm not that myself so I always say it's essentially passing the mic so that I can learn from it and not have um kind of not take away and expect emotional labor like a lot of people do expect of me sometimes um so I think as long as you're willing to learn then it's fine yeah you have to

put yourself in an uncomfortable position because systemically like it's going to be uncomfortable because that's the way that it is and I guess because you're the one that's spearheading this new conversation you kind of got to be the forerunner yeah you bring up obviously I'm white posh middle class publisher at my beginning in case you didn't know um very privileged uh but you talk about being northern and scotty a lot of your work is to do with class and i think this is one of the intersections which a lot of people scurry away from talking about because first of all our politicians are all apparently coke sniffing very posh white middle class men um and i think that class sometimes

can be left out of the conversation interestingly especially when especially when it's talking about the white working class which is something that I've learned from Femi on my podcast, because I think the left often fights for the visibly marginalized. But I do think sometimes the white working class is a conversation which can get a bit murky. Yeah, I think it can. And I think there's good reason why there is often fear around inviting the white working class, I say this as a white working class person, to the table because certain prolific fractures of that community that I belong to have turned to extreme right-wing politics. So I've made a piece of work where I interviewed queer people

that were members of the English Defence League because I was just a bit like, sorry, a marginalised group has turned towards the English Defence League. So they have EDL LGBT, collecting all the letters there. It's an bit like, sorry, a marginalised group has turned towards the English Defence League. So they have EDL LGBT, collecting all the letters there. It's an actual thing. It's an actual, UKIP, LGBTQ. I mean, they've added the Q on. So it's so interesting how these politics can be adopted by other, well, how marginalised groups can become adopted by these right-wing groups to fuel this

idea of like well actually we're really nice people um and yeah so i'm currently touring a piece of work called class which is a show for the white middle classes and i know you'd love it uh and it's essentially um me on stage talking about essentially everything that happened to me in my life growing up in substandard social housing in North London and the legacy that that's had and particularly feel like it's very poignant because we're coming into a decade of austerity, 130,000 preventable deaths because of Tory austerity. So it feels like this conversation that feels very uncomfortable in a way that when I talk about it, people, when I do the show,

often people with privilege, the middle class or the upper classes that come to the show, afterwards when I talk to me on Twitter about what I'm supposed to do with their shame and their embarrassment. And I don't know, apart from asking people to start to

think about ways of moving forward um so yeah it is it's a it's an uncomfortable conversation to have it's uncomfortable to every night go out into you know like three four hundred people and say the council I watched the local council forcibly shaved heads of kids on my estate because of knit infestation it's a very difficult thing to do that um but my therapist oh yeah hi I'm in therapy therapists um they're great because they say um uh this work and and having these conversations and I think we can all take bits from this right is that the aim of it is a little bit like kink and BDSM. So when they said that, I was like... They said the idea is that what you want to do to yourself

and to the audience is to hurt them a little bit for gratification, but you don't want to harm them or yourself. And so I feel like when we're having these conversations thinking about that it's been really helpful in terms of self-care but I think it's a really interesting way that we can all maybe perhaps all approach like having these difficult conversations as the person that listens to it but also as the person that is performing it or fronting it or being the person who's talking about it. Yeah, and your therapist sounds amazing.

But apart from that, I think that what's coming to the fore as we're talking, it's making me realise that a lot of our apologising either comes from someone else projecting shame onto us or us feeling our own shame. And actually, all of my podcasts are kind of about trying to tap into what really makes it you and relinquishing these ideas that you have to be any kind of formatted version of yourself. Because if we all didn't walk around with like these little

like imaginary barriers of like all these things that society tells us we have to be we'd probably feel a lot more comfortable we wouldn't have to apologize so much I don't know if that makes sense but what I'm I'm trying to say is that I think projection is a massive thing which can be really um difficult to understand you're doing it for so for instance when I was younger I might look at someone and be like oh I don't like them not realizing that what I didn't like about with them was either they had something I wanted or they had something I didn't like about myself and then I saw it and sometimes we think that the problem or the issue someone watching Scotty's show is saying this makes me

feel really bad about myself you're such a bad person but it's it's not scotty's holding up a mirror and that person is finally seeing how their actions or their own way of living impact someone else there was a there's a really great guardian review i loved it i read that so funny i felt uncomfortable for an hour and i'm an ally and it's so interesting because we got to this space of allyship where actually you can only be an ally if you're spoken to in a nice way. Like, oh, I like you and I'm going to tell you some things in a really soft way. And actually we do have to sit with some uncomfortable truths. I really like the fact every time I've had a conversation with you,

you're like, I'm completely plush. I've really come from a really privileged background. And I really like that you own that up front because there should be shame in it. think when often when I talk about class I think folk from middle or upper classes think what I'm saying is you don't deserve it you shouldn't have it what I'm saying is can we all have it we all kind of we all live in that that space yeah totally I completely agree um so coming back onto what we were talking about with sexuality you've just

come out now or do you think that coming out as a thing I think now that I talk about this with my mum because we find it

really interesting so I think we're of the generation where suddenly sexuality is on the table but I think if you're like 16, 17 now you just don't tell anyone

you just do whatever you want which I think is really great so one day you come home with a boyfriend one day you come home with a girlfriend

one day you do have an orgy I don't know whatever it is um but do you think that we were also talking about this it's interesting because you're 25 26 almost 27 oh blimey so old and so I think our generation I feel like I think I'm really woke and know loads of stuff but actually I don't know if we're, again, trailblazing a bit for our generation and obviously people older than us might still find these conversations while having a little bit of fronting. These conversations around sexuality for you and your work,

what do you feel like the reaction is to it? Do you think that, is it because we're in this metropolitan, cosmopolitan bubble of London that everyone's like, super child-bame and pan, it's fine? Or do you think that conversations really are moving forward?

I think they're moving forward. When I sort of decided to date outside of my own gender, I, outside of the, you know what I'm saying, I'm bisexual. Basically, when I decided, yes, I realised that no one gave a shit. Like literally no one gave a shit apart from the people that I was dating. And then I had a conversation with my sister because she's younger than me. She's 21 now. But I just remember that she had never came out to our family. I think I was telling you this the other day, but I just remember when she was younger, I think she was

about 16. And she decided that she'd wanted to go to Camp America for like the next summer. And my mum was like, oh, like, you never know, you might come back with a boyfriend. She was like, or a girlfriend. And mum's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, or a girlfriend. And that was literally it. And then she's had girlfriends or she's slept with guys or, do you know what I mean? So it was kind of, she taught me that I'd never even had to announce this whole, I don't like the idea of coming out because I saw a quote from Monroe and it was like,

sexuality is an experiment and it's an experiment for everyone, whether you're straight, like you don't know until the first person that you, do you know what I mean? You're interested in. And I feel like there's this whole, because of like heteronormativity that it's like, you're supposed to be straight and if you're outside of that it's not normal but actually it's all just an experiment so I feel like it's becoming as we're having more conversations about gender more conversation about sexuality that it's becoming more of a normal thing kind of like um with pronouns you just don't assume you just ask if you need to know but also it's none of your

business kind of thing unless you're dating them but I just feel like it's a thing where you just don't assume you just ask if you need to know but also it's none of your business kind of thing unless you're dating them but I just feel like it's a thing where you just don't assume one thing totally and we were at the end of the day with our friend Florence I'm sure you guys know who that is and she just didn't use anyone's pronouns when she's talking about anyone did she for the whole yeah let's just say that so every person she said which is an amazing skill to learn but it is quite throwing but then I was like I really really want to start doing that and all it is is just retraining your brain to be accepting it sounds like you've had an amazing experience with your sexuality and it hasn't been that shameful yeah no not at all even when I um went on my first date with a woman I was like speaking to my mum and then I was like yeah when I did last night she was amazing blah and then she did call me the next day like did you

say she and I was like yeah and then she was like okay cool yeah amazing so it wasn't I don't feel like I've faced and also like because of the stereotypes of having a shaved head people were like sus anyway before I even knew so it's like okay I guess it's fine that's that's quite interesting because I know that's got to your relationship with your sexuality coming out and we spoke about it on the podcast before but you had a very different experience would you think that's because of the masculinity part of it? Or what do you think? Oh, I think so many things. I think class and masculinity definitely have a major hold on it.

It's why I wrote a book and a play called Bravado, which is available now. Which kind of looks at what men did to my body over 10 years in the 90s. But I also think it's a time thing, a generation thing. I grew up under a law invented by someone called Maggie Thatcher. I like to say that because I'm aware that I've come into more rooms nowadays where people are like, who was Maggie Thatcher?

And I'm like, children, get on Wikipedia! And which was called Section 28, which prohibited any key worker anyone who worked for local government so a teacher or anything from promoting homosexuality which is kind of ludicrous but it just was a way of making sure that you weren't able to reach any help or any support so I grew up underneath that law which I think was, which prevented me from seeing myself and to be seen. But I also had a really brilliant mum. So I had a very working class coming out story. I came out watching Jeremy Kyle because there was like these gay people on the telly.

And my mum was like, I think they might be gay. And I was like, I'm gay. And I think brilliant people like that, and like my mum, who made my straight white brother, who's a Corbynista and a vegan, well, you know, like he's ticking sandboxes, like come out as het and straight. Oh, really?

Mum's like, so, you know, are you going to tell me what you are? And I was like, I think I'm a straight man mum and my mum's like well that's fine that's totally fine which I love because it's like my mum was it's like why is this expectation just on queer kids yeah yeah to come out I also recognized the language change in my mum as well from calling me a man and calling me a gay man to call me a queer person. And so, you know, I guess what I'm saying is, like, the more that we've got families, you know, we've got visibility in families, that starts to soften, I think, the dominance of homophobia.

But also we've got to thank the political groups like Stonewall and Flessons and Outrage, who are two organisations that really like, like have given a lot of equality law to queer, trans and non-binary folk, even today. Yeah, I think that your mum asking your brother is amazing. And actually Shard, same to me, she was like, when did you know that you're a woman? And I'd actually thought about it before and I was like, I actually really do feel like I'm the most woman- womanly woman ever it's really funny because even though I'm such an ardent feminist I also have I'm really embarrassed I love cooking and like love being really girly and I think I am just really feminine but I didn't know that really until I was like in my 20s like I was a girl I

never really felt like I'm a woman I think these questions around gender and sexuality should actually be broached like I think we should be asked or we should be told to question, but it should be on both sides. So it should be like, what is it that you want? And not necessarily in that you have to give a direct answer. But I think that I always think about if I raise my children, it would always be with the idea that you can be a man, a girl, a woman, have a boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever you fancy kind of thing. And it's just that what your mum did is absolutely perfect kind of making us all question I think not apologizing for not knowing as well I think with the coming out thing if anyone here is questioning their sexuality or doesn't understand there's no time limit or time frame and as you say it also might be that there's

just you're you feel like you're totally straight the whole time and then one day someone of the same gender pops by and you're like oh my god I love you what um can I do one of my typical like Scotty and Anonia having a conversation what makes cooking feminine feminine yeah because a bloody social construct saying that women should be in the kitchen pal so let's like put it in the bin and just say you like cooking I do this is what I was kind of saying. I know. But when we say that we don't believe in gender binaries and then there's like social stereotypes, if we throw them all out the window, then how can I sit here and say I'm a woman?

Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's such a good question. And then I'm just like going, it's one of them things where it just never gets answered. It just goes round and round. So I think if you got rid of gender constructs, then you wouldn't have to ascribe to either being a man or a woman so I don't think you can have

both really I think the reason that we have such stringent ideas on gender and wanting to so vehemently be the other one is because the social constructs are so in place does that make sense so I think that to be a woman is unfortunately like if you feel like you're a woman it is that you just ascribe to like those things it would be much better if you could be a man and love all of those things and still be a man but because of the way society is if you presented every single um kind of idea of femininity people would just be like oh you're a woman i think it's a tough one personally because I'm I'm just like but if we say like for example I'm not dragging you if you say that like I'm a woman like I love all of the woman things I love cooking I love this that and the other then it's like isn't that just enhancing the fact that this is what it is

to be a woman like those are the points of being a woman. Do you know what I mean? No, totally. I think I'm saying that in that my point with that exercise was like, I didn't know that I, like, I just grew up and was like, oh, I'm a girl because I have a fanny and someone told me. Like someone said to my mum, you've got a daughter. And that was it. And I only sat back down one day and went, oh, no, I really feel like a woman. Like I love all these things that are woman-y.

So that's how I then decided, like, I just am, I just am I like being femme sometimes like do you know what I mean that was my my understanding of I had a little question like am I totally fine step back do I want to be anything else no I'm fine I'm good and that was how I identify but someone else's womanly things could be totally different from mine because it's all going to be dependent on those previous structures we talked about before like class gender race etc not gender that is the question but yeah I where I sit with it because I've sat around this and being like well does it how do you get to her and then come to those dead ends in your head um I know quite a lot of like very ardent radical people that are like destroy gender smash, smash everything down. It doesn't exist.

And I love what that does, what that radicalism puts into our brains and the questions that it puts. But actually, if someone wants to identify as a woman, I really haven't got a problem with it. What I'm asking for is that we just don't look around a room and go, this person has got these characteristics, so therefore I'm going to assign my own bullshit to them. That we just be like as neutral as we can until someone

goes yada, yada, yada, because you know, I'm a woman. And you're like, oh, like, pal, you're a woman now. Fine. I put that above your head. I think I tweeted the other day, actually, as a dyslexic fag. Honestly, I I love love self-identifying as a fag because it makes everyone in the room go oh my god which is great because I feel quite adamantly faggy and femme um I was like I as a dyslexic fag I can often remember people gender identities and pronouns and I can't often remember their name and that's the world I kind of want to live in but also like checking in with people because people's identities change all the time yeah I did that the other day I checked in with my friend who is non-binary and they live in Barcelona

and I just remember that when I first found out they were non-binary this was before I really knew about non-binary so I continued continued to call them he him referred to them like that um and then I saw that they posted something on their story and they'd referred to themselves as she so then I checked in with them and they were like you know like anything is fine this was like last year and then the other day I was just thinking about it and I just checked in with them again and they were saying that actually because of um the, there's no they pronouns in Spanish. So they use she, her while they're back home. But then when they come to London, they prefer they, them because that's what they sit more with.

And I just think if you constantly check in to make sure, because people do change, like they change the way that they want to identify. And as long as you just keep, obviously not every day, like are you she, her or like what you're saying. keep obviously not every day like are you she her or like what you're saying identify every day yeah like just because it is because if we're saying it's fluid it it can change and I think it's important to keep checking in as well and not feel bad if you get it wrong well so when I got it wrong with Scotty and I called you a man and you were like I don't know if I want to be a man like that what, it was not that he, him, it was the man.

Could you explain to people? Because sometimes I do feel like, because I'm saying that I feel like I'm such a woman, I sometimes don't, I'm like, I actually don't, I'm really lucky I feel very cis. Do you know what I mean? So when you say that, I'm like, okay, why? Yeah.

So my stuff isn't about feeling non-binary or trans. And I like to make that very clear because it's not about an appropriation of those things which are really important. And so those voices need to be louder than mine. It's about the fact that I'm, you know, I'm sat here in a suit which is designed for a fat woman's body. It's marketed in the woman's section. I only wear clothes that are marketed towards women um and I am very effeminate people on the telephone always misgender me um and I have a difficult relationship with masculinity and men I don't particularly like to be in the company of

men because I fear their potential because of the trauma and the stuff that's happened to me and I think a lot of femmes um can identify with the potential of masculinity um and I hope we we we start to come and live in a world where that that starts to fade out um but that's the truth that's the very honest truth that I feel threatened um particularly if I'm on my own because often my fatness is the gateway for them to start on me and so for me it isn't about any different pronouns I love being called like using they them and she her I love interchangeable pronounning that works for me I just don't feel like you know when you sat down you're like yes I am a woman and these are my woman things if I was to sit down and be like yes I am the nearest I can get to is like a big fat femme fag witch like that's kind of my nearest

stuff um and that's just that's just the truth but that has so been informed by the generations that are like are like younger than me like particularly like there's a brilliant uh artist and activist called Travis Alabanza and they have informed all of my language um to get me to this point to be like this is how I feel so I feel like it's always really good because sometimes we can market ourselves as whole people that like I came out of the womb and I was femme like I've always known like with this complete thing and actually no it's it's a kind of ever journey of coming out and experimenting and who knows where I'll be in five years time amazing

yeah thanks so sorry next thing I want to talk about we talked about like self-acceptance ourselves and like who we are but one thing I really want to talk about is money because I think we can get to the point where like I know who I am this is what I do but then it can be really hard to especially someone that isn't your person I want to say wanker banker then I've said it now someone that works in the city and like knows how much they want to charge I think money can be a really difficult one especially if you are someone that identifies as creative or working in these industries and one thing I've learned to stop apologizing for is knowing what I'm worth and knowing that I need to get paid

and I want to get paid well and I think that that's something that really needs to come to the fore and especially in the new year that's going to be like my main thing it's just going to be money money money because we all need to get rich um so I don't know about you guys is this a conversation which you've learned to adapt to or are you still in the process of learning how to negotiate your monetary worth away from your self-worth because I think that's where the difficulty is like your job that you're doing is worth something but often we value it on our, how much we think we're worth. And those are generally like two very different numbers. So it's a bit of a rogue question.

I think it's easier for me to say what I'm worth in work than like, because I struggle with like mental health. So it's easier for me to say in work, no, I'm worth this much for what I do and what I can provide, et cetera, than my like self-worth, which I don't know if that's weird that it's that way around,

but I do feel like once I accepted my sexuality, it was like everything just fell into place and that I could do this public speaking and talk about my experiences of marginalisation and my sexuality and all that kind of stuff. And then I was like, no, I know what I'm worth for these jobs that I'm doing. And I felt like I was, I just became,

I mean, it might have helped that I then got management, but still I think I just flipped and all of a sudden I was just completely unapologetic. That's good. Yeah, with everything that's outward. I do think, no no I think that's amazing you got to that point because I always think basically what I meant there was I think we always undervalue our self-worth I think it's really hard to have to see yourself as you are it's that classic thing of like you would never talk to your friends the way you talk to yourself and I think we carry that a lot so it's amazing

you've been able to separate that from your work because often we then put that into our work and we're like oh my god that's like 10 pounds that's fine do you've been able to separate that from your work because often we then put that into our work and we're like, oh my God, that's like £10, that's fine. Do you know what I mean? And creatively it could be a really, because it's like a minefield, you never know how much anyone charges. Yeah. I think I want to really encourage you to get rich because if the world goes in the way that I hope it does on December 13th,

I'd welcome £8 extra from you from earning over £80,000. I think money for me is a strange thing because I don't come from anything. So it burns a hole in my pocket. I get paid and I'm like, okay, what can we do? Where do we go? What do we buy?

It's often about having fun and going out with partners, plural. Drop the polyguard wow being poly is expensive everybody like this this is the shit they won't tell you about polyamory on blogs they'll be like it's great open communication jealousy's a thing they don't tell you how much money you need to be poly um so money like doesn't have the same sort of material value to me if I can pay like my way in the world fine but then I've got an agent right and then because of course like you know it's difficult talking about money and like working out what your worth is translated to

what is your worth on the radio what's your worth on the telly what's your worth on the stage what's your worth as a like a public person so like like then I see what my agent at the conversations my agent has with people I'm like are you for real you want to charge people that for me to turn up for 10 minutes to say hello I'm weird uh but like and it's amazing what that, putting somebody in between you and that who then negotiates money does. It becomes silly. I've seen conversations start with, there is no money. And my agent be like, we've got you a thousand pounds. And I've been like, that tells me so much, not only about capitalism, but about how untruthful and the lies that exist within the arts, this idea that's constantly perpetuated that there's no money in the arts.

Yeah, no, totally. And I think I actually want to count you a bit in not wanting to get rich. So I always had a funny relationship with wanting money in that I thought as a woman, it's really crude to want money. And I would always think like, oh, no, no, no, it's fine. Like I don't need, I just want enough to get by. but then I've been speaking to really interesting women in finance who at the top of their game and they're like the women that have money put money back into the economy like 40% more than men ever would and if we had more distribution of wealth within people like us

the everything would be better obviously because the wealth is hoarded by people like Tories that don't know what to do with it and just I don't what do they do with it I don't know five and a half million pounds last week to the Tory party to um for their public campaigns yeah so that's what they do with it it's absolute waste we could have a massive party can you imagine it'd be amazing um but yeah learning how to want money has been like a really obviously I don't want to be a billionaire literally billionaires should not exist they're fundamentally everything about them is wrong but wanting money I think is really important and recognizing like oh my favorite parable which I think I've told you about three times now but I'm telling you again no it's so good it's so good so I always used to feel this way about like with Instagram as well your work's

kind of weird because you're on the face of it it looks like you're getting paid to post a photo but it's so there's so many more things that go into that two years experience of following whatever so there's a story about someone has a massive castle probably a tory and there's a leak in the castle so they get a plumber in the plumber literally whacks one pipe he's in the building for like five minutes and he goes that's 10 grand they're like you've been in here for five minutes not gonna pay you 10 grand and he's like you're not paying me to hit that pipe you're paying me for my 20 years of experience for knowing exactly which pipe to hit and if you'd hired any other plumber it would have taken them all day or whatever and I was like that's such a fascinating way of putting it because it's so true the self

worth thing that your management can see and also the 20% that they want to take is um them going you just see the surface level work that you're going to do and you're going to have imposter syndrome which is something we'll come on to as well where you'll feel like I'm going to be shit anyways just give me 50 quid and I'll do it and I'll run away they will see you as you are plus VAT 20%. The parable doesn't work though if you're a member of the royal family does it? No. You know if you've got the castle and you've got a leak you then ask the taxpayer for 363 million pounds and then you say yes. And also this podcast does not apply to Prince Angie who really should apologize I'm just going to put that out there. That was quite good.

So back to imposter jokes, I think it's something that we should definitely talk about. It's exactly what I went back to at the beginning, that first thing of, like, sending an email, being like, oh, my God, hi, hope this is OK. And actually, Matt, my boyfriend who was here, was, he's really well-versed in just being really to the point, and that might be because he's a white middle-class man who's just been taught that like everything he does, he pretty much will get

listened to. Whereas a woman, you kind of want to fit yourself into spaces and be as pretty and as cute and as sweet. Like I pretend I'm stupid all the time. It actually works quite well because you get away with a lot of stuff and also people do more stuff for you. But in a work environment, it's actually really unhelpful. So I've learned to just send emails that are so like, hi, this is this, this is that. And the amount of respect you get is amazing and you shouldn't feel apologetic for that but it feels so alien and foreign when you first start doing it every email I go hope this is okay does that make sense and literally all I've said is like it's 300 pounds does that make sense do you understand what I mean thanks so much bye have you guys felt this have you come out of your

imposter syndrome or is it ever present oh it's ever present I think um definitely being black and being a woman it's like I'm constantly told that like I said I'm not supposed to be in certain spaces and this that and the other so sometimes it does creep in but then I feel like sometimes I abuse the fact that I step into a room I look intimidating because I've got a shaved head I look confident so sometimes I'll kind of like abuse that fact and be like actually yeah like I am confident I am like intimidating give me all that money do you know what I mean yeah so sometimes I feel like I can use that but then I do suffer with depression so sometimes I just you know all the little chemicals in my brain are like oh no you don't so then imposter syndrome does creep in And I feel like it's something that you have to keep. I just feel

like it's not something that we should aim to get rid of, but something we should aim to manage better because I don't think it will go away because especially the more success you get, the more you'll be like, do I actually really deserve this? Or did I literally just fluke my way like to the top? And especially when you're constantly being told that you're not supposed to be there. So I think I've just learned to manage it better and kind of just um pretend that I am this thing that everybody tells me I am anyway I think it's so fascinating so that like we haven't really talked about the intersection of race we definitely should but that your people's assumption about you is that you're really confident that you're rude and that you're aggressive whatever

and minor that I'm going to be really really sweet really thick thick. And those two things aren't true of either of us. And it's so hilarious, as we're saying about projections and assumptions, that we walk into a room and people think both of those things were probably quite similar in personality. But they think two completely disparate things just of how we look. I get aggressive and bolshie. Whereas if I was educated and have letters after my name, they'd say articulate and well-argued.

I can't imagine anyone thinking you're aggressive. Oh, all the time. Really? And it's in real subtle ways as well, like in reviews or in language that commissioners use with me. You know, I largely exist in the arts where most people who commission me, their name is a sound that I've never heard.

It's like, come on, Anastela. And they're like the poshest, it's just like the poshest person you've ever met. And so there is a natural distance between you because you're talking about making a piece of work about your class trauma, and you just know that they really don't understand why it's important to make it.

And so being in those rooms can be difficult. But my imposter is totally class-based it's totally that I feel like somebody because I did go to university got tracked out of school when I was 14 proper council kid that I can't see if someone's going to tap me on the shoulder and be like you used the wrong word you're stupid or you um don't know what you're doing and it's really apparent in this piece of work that you've made and like there's a fear there's a fear that you um you and then when you start to talk about class or any of your intersections um that you then think I'm now the representative of the whole body of people who are working class and that's and that's a tough thing because you don't want you're not trying to take up that space but you're trying to talk about that experience it's really interesting

that you say that you feel like your class is what makes people think you're aggressive because one of those violent things which I used to do not actively but using really long words which I do have a vocabulary where I can just whip out I can't think of anything to say now but long words and that is kind of violent because I would used to use it especially on Instagram so say if someone commented something and they were like you're ugly I'd be like it's y-o-r-e and it that's actually why are you didn't even spell that right did I but they showing off about my language um but that was me like impose it's punching down because I'm saying I'm smart that even though they call me ugly which doesn't really matter um I'm like pointing out I can't explain it that was one of the first times I understood privilege because I'm saying I'm smarter than, even though they're calling me ugly, which doesn't really matter. I'm, like, pointing out, I can't explain it.

That was one of the first times I understood privilege because I recognise that most people don't have a very large vocabulary and to use it in a way which politicians do to kind of fuddle you and make you feel confused is cruel. It's basically making you feel like you're stupid when you're not because, do you understand what I'm saying? Do you understand what I'm saying do I do you understand what I'm saying no I didn't mean that no because you use simpler shorter language for me no no no I'm

joking um yeah I do never going to be invited here again no you definitely will you're on twice I have yeah yeah I think yeah like it's it's difficult because we feel that we do have to defend ourselves because like we're all forward facing people, right? And people are, we're living in a time where people are wanting to tell us constantly that we're wrong and that we're incomplete and that we're hideous. And they use such violent language. I don't know how many people are on your block lists, but on my block list, there's like a huge wave of people that want me dead or just want to talk about when I will be dying tomorrow from diabetes or when I will die because they're going to violently attack me.

It's this constant threat of death that is used that has just become so normalized that like, who do you report that to apart from pressing the report button and they go oh you delete them I mean that's all it does it doesn't solve any of the stuff um well that was nice and light and cheery no but what do you think because I think it's interesting to pick apart the hatred and trolling it's really fascinating and when we talk around fatness and health and this idea of like health worrying, when people go, oh, I'm worried about you because you're fat and like I don't want you to die. Like that kind of microaggression is really ironic because I said before, like if I'm having a cigarette outside, no one really cares. So they don't really care about your health.

It's like, it's first of all, I think it's virtue signaling. And we were talking about a bit earlier. I think when someone pushes back on something you do, I think it's almost just pointing out the fact that they know it just for a bit of their own gravitas but also I think it's because people are scared to deviate from the norm so if you're a person and Sophie talks about this in happy fat but if you're a person that's happy being you doing something that you're not supposed to do other people want to attack you and take you down because it makes them feel uncomfortable because they recognize that they're subscribing to this formula

and you're not and you're fine. And I do understand that because I think I've felt that way before. I'd be like, why are they happy doing that? And it makes you feel... So I think it does come from a place of like... I just think it's fucking awful that people want you to die, first of all. But I also think that they obviously have not got to a point where they know remotely who they are.

But it's the really clumsy, confused headspace of being a forward-facing fat person where people are, like, predicting your death on one side and say, you will die tomorrow, you are going to die, by this age you will be dead. Like, they know that there are some soothsayer, like, you know, like, let's tap into those skills because, like, we may be able to solve some of the other shit because they can see into the future, right?

Yeah. So we've got death here and then a whole bunch of other people that want to keep me alive. I'm only telling you this because I want, you know, I want you to lose weight because I want you to live. I just want to do it for your health. Like, there's just this obsession with me either dying or being alive forever. And I just want to do the middle bit of living if that's okay and the irony with the health thing is as well like one of the biggest um problems against health is class and inequality so actually really it'd be more helpful if we all

just vote labour um because I do I do think this is really interesting. When you're coming up against people talking to you about... I mean, I definitely think that I probably get the least worst comments than you guys in terms of my trolling. My trolling really isn't that bad, I don't think. The worst I used to get was loads of dick pics. And even I don't get those anymore, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I used to get so many. So my block list was all just men sending me dick pics, and now I get none, and I'm actually slightly worried. What does this say? I've also never had a fanny pic, so... But I just think that women are better than that. Anyway, so back to trolling. So when you're putting yourself out there unapologetically,

which is what we all do, I think, it does open you up. And I don't think that should be the way, but what do you think about, you know, when people are like, oh, well, they wanted this, they wanted this fame, and, like, do you think that should be the way but what do you think about you know people like oh well they wanted to be they wanted this they wanted this fame and like what do you think that attitude needs to change or do you think there is some level of truth in that if you put yourself up in on a pedestal and to talk not on a pedestal it's wrong terminology but do you think there should be some room for no actually trolling's just not okay is it no it's like if if you go just realize if you go onto someone's page to troll them I just don't think you you ain't got a leg to stand on you're on their page you're

on their territory like fuck off that's it if you don't like it go somewhere else I just don't understand when people go into other people's spaces and say mean stuff you don't have to be there so just leave i think there's also um a cultural thing of like we enjoy leaving negative now i found this out because i did it myself prime example so i listen to loads of podcasts all the time i love and i've never once reviewed one i've never written even though i make you guys all the time sorry um but i listened to one and they basically said that structural racism wasn't real and i could before i could even think i'd written a, this is awful, one star, I can't believe you said this. Really angry. And DM'd both hosts and then deleted it because I felt really embarrassed.

But couldn't delete the review, which was quite long. I thought I'd put a pseudonym, but it was just my name. So you might find it. Anyway, I realised that feeling annoyed or angry, even though that is a ridiculous thing to say, and I don't disagree with what I said, it just realized that feeling, negative feelings promote reaction more than positive. And I think culturally as British people, especially, we really enjoy having a bit of a nag and being a bit critical. Whereas I think, I don't know, but I hear that in America, I mean, I know it's not great over there at the minute, but I do hear that they have a bit more of a positive,

I think they're better at bringing people up and cheering people on. I think even within our friendship sometimes we find it a bit hard to be like, oh, you did really well. It's a bit like, oh, it was good. Do you feel that attitude? Didn't we have, like, very briefly, like, a good news newspaper? There's a woman that does it. I can't remember her name, but I follow her on Instagram. Does it still exist? Yeah, I think so.

OK, right. Well, good. Good. I'm glad it does. Because I was going there's like a good news newspaper which only like sell it like shares like good news and it was very it seemed to be really prolific and everywhere and all of a sudden not and I thought is this a sign of is this is this an analogy for what's going on in in the world I really like there's a publication called happy fall as well which looks at mental health and well-being that kind of is in a sort of similar ilk um but again with same with gender get myself into these like loops and these mazes and find dead ends because I think sometimes I have got the emotional labor to put up with other people's bullshit and I'm aware that if I put

myself on the south bank main stage that some people are going to go and disagree. And so I kind of do invite some conversation. It's the death threats that I'm not down with. Like, why have we lost the ability to be able to have a conversation with each other and go, oh, do you know what? I disagree, but you're still a lovely person. Yeah, yeah, I think yeah obviously like I was like if you go on someone's page you can just fuck off but obviously we need to have conversations

about certain things and we need to be open about having conversations but I just don't think people need to go as far as that and if you're not open to a conversation and you just want to come and say something nasty and it's not going to be productive then don't say anything at all unless you want to have a conversation and you're willing to learn from the conversation and listen to each other then I think it's just like irrelevant you even speak in I think what sometimes happens on social media is we're talking about how everything's going really badly but actually if you think about how far we've come like some of the conversations we're having today would be seen as radical

10 years ago wouldn't they so that's like a positive thing and I think what happens social media sometimes with the really not the the death threats, but the criticism that seems quite unfounded is some of the things that we say, which we think are so normal, someone might read that and think, I have never, I don't even know what, what does non-binary mean? What does this mean? And I think it's that there's so much polarisation on social media. And I think, as you say, if there was more conversation in the middle, but I don't know how we knit those groups together. But yeah, I think it's really important, though,

that we acknowledge that there is an echo chamber around us. Yeah. Because actually, like a really interesting and sort of slightly hurtful and sad thing that I saw from the leaders debate that was between Corbyn and Johnson, I was like, who's the other one? Boris Johnson. On Channel 4 that happened was that between Corbyn and Johnson I was like who's the other one Boris Johnson on channel four that happened was that Jeremy Corbyn said climate change is a real thing it's going to affect the most poor in our societies and a huge proportion of the audience

went oh here he goes again and I thought oh no hang on I believe that to be the actual truth through a lot of like time that I spent reading but that retaliation from an audience that to be the actual truth through a lot of time that I spent reading. But that retaliation from an audience just to be like, oh, wacky ideas from this one who's a vegetarian. I remember when Corbyn first started to become a prolific, more forward-facing person within the Labour Party. And the press were like, gets on a bike and is a vegetarian and his wife doesn't want anything to do with politics. Strange. And that reminds me actually that, yeah, we have these spaces to have these conversations and that's not to say that everyone in this room

like totally is signed up to everything that we've talked about. But I do think that these conversations have got to get bigger and wider. Yeah. I actually want to ask you because I've remembered something that happened on Twitter as well. So I don't know when it was, but there was a working class man and you tweeted about it I was like really interesting to see this debate working class man basically said I can't remember who was talking do you know the tweet where he was like I earn in the top tax bracket but that's not five

percent of the people and I don't want to be taxed more now what quite clearly was happening was he couldn't believe that he was in the top five percent because I didn't even understand this like I don't earn HK yeah but I I didn't really realize how the distribution of wealth worked or how many people there are in that yeah it really is so so so so so few people that are in that tax bucket and what you pointed out is that this is a working class man that's worked really really hard do I need to explain it more do you guys know what I'm talking about yeah so it was it was just there was a lack of nuance and also a lack of empathy so I actually watched that and felt quite sorry that they hadn't gone to him like sorry just to reiterate what you're saying is that you don't realize and I found that really cold and then lots of the retweets

were like taking the piss out of this guy and actually I was like no this conversation is so much more nuanced than the rich and the poor labor Labour and Tories. It's like we've... Class as well, it's not... You can kind of move... I think this is a weird thing. For people that move from different classes or different money brackets, class is a feeling, not necessarily a wealth thing.

Much like poshness doesn't have to be related to wealth. It can be to do with your, like, cultural upbringing. And I... Do you know what I mean? I know they are related, but they can... I think class is really difficult because we can't pin it in the same way that we can with other things. But yeah, what I got from that was working class Tory, which is, I thought was an oxymoron, but it's actually a real thing. I live in Essex. It's got very working class Tory following.

And what I've kind of, through conversations with folk, realised it's about protectionism. If people have come from nothing and worked for something, and that guy really was a very honest retaliation. And he was right, because it was fact-checked. He's not in the top 5%. He needs to earn £1,000 more, I believe, to be in the top 5%. And, yeah, I think it's around that idea of, like, I wonder what that would happen,

that conversation would have looked like if it was approached with around that idea of like, I wonder what that would happen, that conversation would look like if it was approached with empathy and a bit like, oh, okay, well, let's try and take the sting out of this and listen and hear each other. Yeah, I think that that's something which is interesting. So I think on social media,

I find there's like something with the most bite is what people really want to get into. Like nuance isn't very interesting. Nuance takes an hour and a half to talk about, which I love podcasting. I've never understood short form things because I feel like you can't get into the meat of it and I think that with social media and the way that we take in information and even the fact that what people works along their lives are so busy and we're going around our interactions with

other humans literally aren't long enough to even get to the point of saying like how are you today and we feel like we can just say fine and that's the end of the conversation which brings us on to mental health I hope you enjoyed part one of why we should stop apologizing it was recorded at the boulevard theater in Soho and we had around 150 people there so it was an incredible evening and I'm so grateful for Scotty and Shark coming along part two I will release as soon as possible and I will also be releasing new dates for live podcasts in the new year so keep your eyes peeled on my Instagram page and I'll hopefully announce on here too bye We'll be right back. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario.

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