Adulting - #54 When Did Disability Become So Taboo? with Sophie Butler

Episode Date: March 8, 2020

Hey podulters, in this week's episode I speak to the hugely inspiring Sophie Butler, about living with a disability, ableism and how we can be better allies to people who have any kind of disability.I hope you enjoy, and as always please do rate, review and subscribe! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem?

Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi, poddlers. I hope you're doing well. Today's episode is when did disability become so taboo? So I speak to the amazing Sophie Butler, who is a fitness influencer and also a wheelchair user. We discuss her accident and how she came to be disabled or to have a disability. And also the way that the world perhaps disables us more than injuries, accidents or disabilities that we're born with may do, which might seem like a confusing concept, but it's basically the idea of ableism and how

the world is set up for people who are able-bodied as opposed to those of us who perhaps can't function in a very specific way. It was so inspiring to speak to Sophie and I think it's a really interesting conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. As always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye! Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. Today I am joined by Sophie Butler. Hi guys. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm good, thank you. How are you? Really good, thank you. So today I've got Sophie on to talk to me about accessibility and disability and I wanted to start off with this because I thought this is like so

ironic also really ignorant of me not to think of it but it's like pertinent to what we're going to be discussing I booked a different studio to record in in Soho and this morning I suddenly thought oh my god I don't know if it's wheelchair accessible so I emailed them and I said hey just checking I'm fairly certain you are because it's like a new building do you have wheelchair accessibility and they said no and I thought oh my, imagine I'm meant to be talking about this and I hadn't even checked. So luckily now we're in ACAR studios and it is wheelchair accessible. But I just found that to be really mind blowing. So that's kind of like, even when you're supposed to be thinking about it, it's just not available. So Sophie will have a bit of a better idea about who you are and what you do. Could you tell us

a little bit about yourself? Yes. So I am Sophie Butler Butler I'm a little bit nervous so I'm sorry if I stumble um I'm 23 years old I'm from Essex um and I am I guess you would call me a fitness influencer totally still not got used to that word yeah I mean I'm on the cosmopolitan health influence health and fitness influence of the year and I still don't want to call myself an influencer I don't know why it doesn't feel real but um yeah so I I that's that's what I do that's my thing um see I say my kind of like intersection of fitness is I love talking about representation in fitness um accessibility within fitness because it's something I did fitness before I was um disabled so um I had an injury which we'll talk about in a bit um but I had an injury a few years ago and I

kind of had to get myself back into fitness. So I got into the influencing world, as you like, through documenting my journey of getting back into fitness and trying to make my space accessible. So that's what I do now. I'm an online fitness coach as well. So I coach people online. But yeah, my injury of how I actually became disabled was actually a training accident so I had an accident in July of 2017 so I'd just finished uni literally just got my results that day and I fell while squatting in a smith machine and it's always shocked people but yes I fell on my bum and the safety latches weren't up high enough that was the problem so the safety latches didn't actually catch the bar

I caught the bar um so it basically kind of caught the pressure was too much it caused my back to snap and as it snapped it basically went into my spinal cord um and that caused me to be paralyzed from the waist down wow yeah so I was that was July 2017 so I was in the hospital for um for four months with that and then coming out of hospital it ever since I came out of hospital in November 2017 and ever since then I've just been kind of on a journey of it was just a journey of getting back into fitness and saying like oh I hope that's something that I could do and trying to like fight people being like no you shouldn't do that anymore so that was one interesting part and then um and now it's become more about so much bigger than that without me even realizing it and not just getting back into it but actually

taking my space and making it bigger and make I want to make it more of an accessible space for other disabled people and other people who don't see themselves within fitness yeah you're absolutely changing the game when it comes to the fitness influencer world like it's absolutely incredible I mean speaking like just as I said before from a point of privilege where I don't have a disability I'd never seen anyone especially not in a wheelchair in the gym so the fact that you're kind of at the forefront and you work with brands like Gymshark like you're really out there and your message is always so positive and you've got so much to say and also your messages are applicable to everyone not just people with disability it just so happens that you also are in a wheelchair and I think as well I think the one thing um the one thing that I really struggled with at first was I kind of

didn't really have like um like a blueprint someone to look to and think like oh that's who I want to be I just got I remember after my injury I was scrolling for Instagram and sitting laying in the hospital bed like for days and weeks and months I'm just scrolling through and I'm thinking no one I follow looks like me anymore. I'd gone from being a fairly lean white girl going for Instagram, very privileged and going like, OK, I can relate to this person, that person. Now I'm scrolling through thinking none of these people look like me. None of these people are going to act like me, go through my struggles or work out like me. And I remember getting really, really upset and frustrated and thinking like, like okay so there's their options aren't open to me anymore and then the only place I could look to and see myself was the Paralympics but I thought but I don't want to be

a Paralympian and I think I actually did an interview with Adobe the other week and then there was like what was the one of the things you've struggled with I think actually one of the things I didn't even realize till that interview was having to like find my own be my own representation in a way I mean there are so many amazing disabled women in fitness there absolutely are but none of them are like what I wanted to do I didn't want to be a Paralympian that isn't me and you get sometimes people say to me be like oh you'll be at the Paralympics soon and I literally look at them and I think the first time someone said it I thought right I've got to deconstruct this because it's upset me and I don't know why so I took some time to thought about it

and I thought hang on imagine if I turned to you you've just come from the gym and I've said oh you know you're going to be at the Olympics yeah and I'm like well you think the Paralympics is that easy you think it's like some disabled hangout where we all meet up and just go and be disabled like it's that's I think that was something that annoyed me about it I was like no they're after like athletes they're olympic athletes like that's not what I want to be I I want to be me I want to be in fitness but you can be that and not want to be an athlete like it's able-bodied people so you know they go through that as well so then that was one thing I struggled with was like oh I kind of have to separate myself from a Paralympian

and kind of create my own, I want to be who I am. You're right, it's so reductionist to assume that just because you've got a disability and an interest in fitness, you automatically could be a Paralympian. Yeah. It's that's being an athlete. Like by any stretch of the imagination, that's ridiculous. Even for me to do the equivalent of what a Paralympian does,

like I couldn't. It's still being an athlete exactly yeah and that reductionist idea I think is what's really unhelpful and I do think that sometimes people think that they're being helpful by saying it yeah and I think that is one thing as well as I've really had to like learn is I because I don't want to um I know because I know people are trying to be they're not trying to be mean but then at the end of the day I'm not gonna um pacify your ableism because you've said it with a smile totally you know um so a lot of people I don't mean offense and I go okay and I don't mean to offend you but it's also your time to listen so um it's just like if there was you know a person of color if a black woman was trying to sit here now and talk to me about racism that would be my time to shut up and learn um you know

so it's just like I think and a lot of people just try to get their point across if I'm not being here now and talk to me about racism that would be my time to shut up and learn um you know so it's just like i think and a lot of people just try to get their point across if i'm not being mean it's like okay you might not be but you need to learn from this um but i think the whole thing with the the paralympian thing i think that actually stems from a lack of representation so people see you know the paralympics and then that is kind of what they latch onto because the only imagery they get so when they think they see me and they go oh there they go they literally do the math of wheelchair fitness Paralympian whereas like that's because that is what their scope is when it comes to someone who looks like me you're right and I think it's also the issue of putting the disability

first so I just caught myself earlier and I was saying to you instead of calling you like or people with a disability saying that rather than a disabled person and where you're a woman you also have a disability so as a woman you have the option to do a myriad of different things whereas I think sometimes people when you have a disability put the disability first and that's all they can see yeah and I know that this conversation is going to be around a disability but I want it to be around the de-stigmatizing and breaking it down to be like the fact that whatever components of my personality are just the same as your disability like that's not who you are and I think as well I think people get really um caught up in trying not to be offensive and they're like oh we don't wanna we don't want to attach you to your disability but then it also on the flip side I'm like don't

completely detach my disability because it's like I think when I think I've had some people say to me before like oh you shouldn't call yourself disabled and I'm like why I have a disability I have a physical disability that stops me from from walking so that is what it is you might as well call it what it is because I think when you do that what you actually do is you completely invalidate the disability and when you invalidate the disability you invalidate your need to be accessible so it's all well and good saying you shouldn't call yourself disabled and I'm like oh okay cool so when I get to Liverpool Street this afternoon should I just try and do things the way you do it because if I did that and I ignored my disability I wouldn't be able to leave my house no so yeah there's like two sides

of the coin of where people they don't want to talk about it I'm like but why don't you want to talk about it it's not a dirty thing to talk about no it's not but it makes people feel uncomfortable because they have to recognize their own privilege so yeah I have to recognize as an able-bodied person that I can't just treat you it's not giving you special treatment but I have to adjust the way I act I have to make myself not uncomfortable but it's not going to be as easy as someone with enabled and that's on me not on you do you know what I mean I think there's an element of um a fear in there as well so I mean I've had a couple people say to me they just assume like oh we you're just born this way um like no I'm not Lady Gaga but um but like no I think there's like an element of fear of like the interesting thing about

disabilities and intersection is at anyone at any point in their life can suddenly fall into it so I'd never ever fall I've never had um never been seriously ill my life I'd never had any like long term illnesses no disabilities anything like that suddenly boom 21 disabled for life um and I think it scares people realizing that that could also be their reality so I think sometimes people retreat away from it in fear of you know accepting that could be me because I mean I mean I'll probably talk about it a bit later but I was incredibly internally ableist like I didn't notice it before I had my injury but you know when I first had my injury and I think and I try not to be too hard on myself about it.

I try and write it off to, you know, having a trauma and going through everything. But I was very, very internally ableist where I was like, I'm not going to spend my life in a wheelchair. I need to walk. I need to do this. And I thought if I never walk again, I would never be happy. That was just internalised ableism where I probably was ableist before and never had to be confronted with it but you it's like anything really we all have internalized and

entrenched misogyny and racism and ableism that's not you it's a product of this environment that we live in that champions a very specific set of ideals and unless you're living in those one of those marginalized or I hate sometimes saying oppressed because actually sometimes that's quite geography but like a marginalized group then sometimes it is really hard to to see that you have these like internalized ideas and thoughts I wanted to ask quickly you just said then that you thought you know if I could never walk again I'll never be happy but evidently I mean you're absolutely smashing your career and you're being you're very positive person but how long was that transformation

from the point of you know having what is unequivocally like a life-changing accident to coming to a place of like acceptance do you accept have you accepted it and to the point where you've kind of contented with it or is it still something that you struggle I mean I'm sure you struggle against it but do you know what I mean yeah Yeah, I know what you mean. So it's definitely a journey and it's a journey that I'm still on. So there are times where, and one, like an example, for example, like where I'm doing online coaching, I coach able-bodied and disabled clients. So sometimes when I first started that, I was programming for able-bodied clients and I was writing them leg days, glute days, anything like that.

And I remember I think the first able-bodbodied program I wrote I sat there and I cried because I just I missed hamstring curls that was it something so simple and basic I thought I really missed that but then I was at a point where I could think right I missed that but I can also do this isn't this so I think um it did take a long time and I think it didn't really start until maybe like a year after my injury I mean it's not like I can I mean a lot of people go to me oh have you given up on walking then it's not like I've given up but I'm living life at the same time whereas before I was in a space of I need to walk life's on hold but no and that's I think that I was going about it the wrong way I mean science may progress massively and something might come along

and then one day I might walk. But I live my life now with that not being the priority of my life. But I think the most important thing for me really was deconstructing my own internalised ableism. But also realising that walking isn't the key to happiness. I think when I started to really think back before my injury I think I really glamorized my able-bodied self um when I was first injured because I was looking back at old uni pictures and I was looking at my glutes and I was like oh my god I miss having abs and glutes and you know like really pathetic um and

I was like I miss running around in nightclubs and whatever and then I think actually when I think about it there were some times for my injury where I was really, I miss running around in nightclubs and whatever. And then I think, actually, when I think about it, there were some times for my injury where I was really depressed and really unhappy, but I could walk then. I was able-bodied then. So I started to think that, you know, I went through periods of depression where I was able-bodied. So walking isn't, you know, the be-all and end-all of life. And then I think when I actually started to take control of my life again, again so when I got back into training that was a massive massive thing and um it went

from just going literally just went through a gym one time um didn't didn't even go in I just went to it signed up left and then I think it was like going into the gym I started to sort of just wheel around it get used to the equipment and I used to keep um I had a little notebook tiny notebook and I used to write all of the exercises that I could still do write down all the equipment and I used to keep um I had a little notebook tiny notebook and I used to write all of the exercises that I could still do write down all the equipment I could still use and start to think in my head um of creating myself a program and try and working around what I can do and I think doing things like that where I was getting back to more who I who I know I am really like deep down inside and that is when I started to change my perception of it so um learning to drive was a massive massive thing I mean I only passed in November

just gone but that is like the one thing it's completely changed my life like loads of things like that so getting my life back on track and taking control of it and finding um a purpose other than being able to walk like that was it was absolutely massive you you said that at one point I was really silly I was like missing my bum and my abs but actually it's not silly because we know so well that women especially are told that their physical bodies are kind of like the greatest capital that they have and the way that you look is the most important thing and I find it interesting because I almost do agree kind of thing that when you are of so much privilege and that, like,

you're able-bodied and you're white and you're whatever else, sometimes you can get so trapped in those, like, really seem small things, but they can become all-encompassing. That when maybe I imagine, like, something like this happens, if you have the absolute mental strength that it is, it's incredible. Like, I find you very inspiring, which is such a cringe thing to say opposite the table but it's true uh to turn that but I can kind of understand how it would kind of take you to a different place like look at life in a different way I think um one really interesting thing you brought up there is and it's a conversation that I've only just

started having with people but you brought up about women's bodies being like their greatest capitalist asset well one of the main questions I get as a disabled woman you know you go on Instagram you do that ask me a question and people can you know just go on there and ask willy-nilly and they do I know yeah they try they do didn't they um the most common one I get is literally revolving around sex revolves around can you have sex um can you can you feel this can you do this or whatever like really like questions you just would not ask someone um unless they're an influencer and they don't have feelings or you know anything um and I started to think about it and I was like why are people fascinated with this it's really really weird and I spoke to some of my

disabled male friends and they were like we don't really get them kind of questions very much. It's just more, you're so inspiring, you're this, this, whatever. And then I was thinking, but why do me and my disabled girl mates get these questions orientated more towards us? It's not to say men don't get them questions, but it's not so much as like a direct, you know, like we're really with aggression. And then I was really, really deconstructing it over coffee and Instagram one morning. And I was thinking, I really think it stems from the patriarchy. It really just defines a woman's worth by how much sex she can give or how much sexual worth she has. So it's almost like when people like, oh, are they gay? Yes.

It's not like I might. I just want to know. Why do you want to know? Are you trying to shag themag them like is that how you're going to determine your worth their worth to you so it's like they almost want to know what your sexual worth is so they can or what your sexual position is so they can determine your worth um it's an issue of ableism that is still rooted in patriarchy so it's really interesting to think about when a lot of people talk about feminism, I ever really hear the argument of feminism come from someone who looks like me.

So a lot of the time, and it's one of the things that's not spoke about because a lot of the time when you get people talking about feminism, they're not coming from different points of view. But that is one thing that I've massively found is almost like the desexualization. It's desexualization, it's desexualization but

it's also hypersexualization at the same time I think you're completely right and I also wonder if there's a slightly more kind of um sinister idea towards the idea that because you have been disabled by an accident that you've almost got less power and then yeah like that kind of is but you also wonder that with a disability have you found that people feel like they have more right to ask you questions, which you would never normally ask someone? There have been times where I've been like fully like just shocked. I mean, even now. I mean, people will ask me, they'll just ask me just in the street

or if I'm in a supermarket or if I'm in, you know, anywhere, in a restaurant. But, oh, why are you in a wheelchair then? Wow. And literally, the first few times it happened, I'd say for the first year, I thought, I don't know what to say. Because I don't want to tell them. I don't want to talk about it. Why are they asking? I didn't understand.

Because as much as, you know, I was internally ableist before, I had never, ever asked anyone that. That is the one thing I could not understand. So, I mean, at first I was very much I don't want to upset them and now I'm like I don't care if you're going to come to me with that question you're going to get the answer that you deserve but it was very hard at first to try and you almost feel like you're kind of tiptoeing around not wanting to upset them but then I had to think why do I care about upsetting them they've come to me not caring about upsetting me um so yeah I mean now I normally reply with something like why are

you standing yeah something like that and it's just like well it's none of your business and then when they get a bit like oh I'm only asking and I'm like well but the think about the question that you're asking there's clearly a story behind why I'm in a wheelchair whether I was born with it whether whether I had an accident something like that and you coming to that you're asking for one-to-one private access to my trauma before you've even asked how I am today so it really feels like it strips you of any like identity of like humanity that you have and it sounds really like dramatic it's like it's a I would class it as like a microaggression but it's one of them things that really sets a picture of what people think of you and how they see you um that in in a able-bodied world I don't think it's dramatic at all I can imagine how that constant chipping away

as you say at your identity you know it's again it's that like disability first thing and you're right it's such an odd question I can imagine a five-year-old asking and that's kind of like fair enough when kids ask I I don't take anything of it. I mean, parents, they get so embarrassed. And I'm like, it's fine, but you need to teach them how to deal with questions like that. So when they ask you all the time, why is that girl in a wheelchair? You need to learn how to deal with that. If you want to ask me how to deal with that, that's fine. I can help.

Probably wouldn't know because I don't know how to deal with kids. I'm the least maternal person ever. One time it really upset me. There was this little boy. I was in the supermarket. And he said, Daddy, why is that girl in a wheelchair? And I'm the least maternal person ever. One time it really upset me, there was this little boy, I was in the supermarket and he said, Daddy, why is that girl in a wheelchair? And I'm like, normal question. Normally people just say, oh, because she needs it

because she can't walk, something like that. Perfectly fine answer. But the dad turned around to the son and he was like, because some people aren't as lucky as you are. And I bit the, I couldn't, I had to take the bite, I bit. And I turned around and I was like, excuse me, I was like, you don't know I can hear you. I was like, I'm not deaf, you know. And then he was like, oh, is that, was there something wrong with what I said?

And I went, yeah. I was like, you have just taught your very young son that his life has more worth than mine because I'm sitting down and he's standing up, you know. What does that teach him? What kind of foundation does that set for him about disability? I'm probably the first disabled person he's seen. That is now his foundation, his understanding of disabled people. It's micro, but it really sets a tone for what you're teaching your child. Yeah, that's so, do you know what?

Good for you saying something as well, because also when you said it to me then, I did have like a literal reaction. I was like, but actually that terminology, it isn't like, I can imagine that people use that kind of thing all the time because we do seem to see ourselves. And I think it's exactly what you said earlier about people thinking that disability will never happen to them. Yeah. We kind of shroud ourselves with this idea that we're lucky it will never happen to me. And it's like a safety net around it.

Whereas actually the problem with that is as well, if his son did end up being disabled or something like you, you're right're tying yourself up in knots it's not a game of luck you know yeah so many things could happen to so many different people and I'm going to circle back again quickly because the nature of your accident um it happening in the gym and things I want to know like what because again you obviously weren't born with this and I feel like that must be even some in some ways I don't know harder to deal with and did you find that like did you feel a sense of self-blame or like and how was it getting back into the gym now because that's on a really minor scale it's not comparable I broke my leg in the gym doing box jumps I

remember that I remember when yeah and then I had to like have my leg pinned and plated now go back I actually did box jumps this morning completely different scenario but still into myself in the gym and everyone was like how did you go back yeah but I I think I know the answer because it's fucking amazing but I wanted to know like how that I assume that would have been a much bigger leap or were you desperate to go back even after it happened what was your relationship like with exercise so um I got into like fitness in general when I was, I want to say 19. It was second year of uni. And I basically got into fitness because I was really struggling at uni, really down.

You know what it's like when you're drinking too much, you're eating too much, you're texting too many toxic boys. And I was just like, I need to do something. Let's join the gym. So that's how it started. And I think I just fell in love with it again because it was kind of like that control thing of where I have the power to be able to do something and turn my day around and make it positive, which is probably still now the core of everything that I do. But yeah, so I fell in love with it at uni. This happened just literally the day I got my results.

I'd literally just moved home for uni. Getting back to the gym, it was a massive, massive struggle. I mean, when it first happened, I remember lying in the hospital bed and everyone was like you know like I first friends I said I was like I can't wait to go back to the gym and everyone's kind of looked around like is she mental that's my dad was not having it um you know I was like well it is so I was like I'm gonna need to build up strength I need to get back and for me it was just a given like there was no second thought about it it wasn't until um I got to rehab so I'm still in a hospital but now I'm up in a chair and I'm, you know, wheeling around and things like that. So we go right down to the gym that's at the bottom of the rehab.

And I just had this panic attack. Just. FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11 p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling. Winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do.

Daily Jackpots, a chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer

until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com. Please play responsibly. Could not, couldn't function, had to leave. And it was around that time so many things were happening. My boyfriend at the time had just broken up with me. I had my graduation that I was determined to go to for the day the next week. So I think it was a combination of chaos in my brain, which kind of brought on a load of different,

it brought everything to the surface. I think I'd gone through survival mode of need to get back to the gym, need to just get through each day, get through each day, survive, survive, survive. And then loads of things happen, you know, like breakup, you've got to get to graduation, all these things. And it just hit me all at once and brought everything to the surface that I'd been kind of pushing down because I wanted to look strong.

And that might have come from a place of self-blame where I was like, this is my problem, I've got to deal with it, so I have to be strong now. And so I got diagnosed with PTSD and depression and I'm very, very lucky that I had a really good psychiatrist. Because I was an inpatient, I basically a really good psychiatrist I was because I was an inpatient I basically got put to the top of the list we had someone who would come around and see us every week and I'm known that everyone's not that lucky to get that it was because I was an

inpatient I was really really lucky and she really really helped me we would have days where we would just go down to the gym we'd just sit there and we'd have a chat set about something completely unrelated she'd be like did you see Coronation Street or something like that and then she'd just sit there and we'd have a chat about something completely unrelated. She'd be like, did you see Coronation Street or something like that? And then she'd just be like, oh, this will go over here. And I think one thing that really helped is my psychiatrist was actually disabled as well. So I remember saying, like, I'm not going to go see some psychiatrist. She had no idea what I'm going through. I get there and I'm like, OK, she might have some ideas.

So, yeah, that really massively helped. And so I took everything I learned with her and I kind of left the hospital and tried to take all of them sort of teachings with me so um it got to new year and I remember I think it's like the day after new year's day and my dad said to me he was like right we're gonna go around to the gym and then we're gonna sign up not gonna do anything we're just gonna sign up and I was like I'm not doing that he was like yes we are I was still absolutely terrified I was having I mean even now I do stuff with like nightmares and things like that they're a lot more controllable whereas like then I was having bad night terrors not really sleeping very much

um really really depressed and um my dad was like right no we're going to teach you a route that you can walk around on your own because it's only like a 15 minute wheel walk um so he's like we're going to find the accessible path we're going to like make it doable so we go around there we do that and he's like it's not so bad is it so we're signed up and then it was like baby steps of as I said before going into the gym looking at the equipment then it went to doing one session a week um and then I was like I'm actually I'm really enjoying this I thought I started to find myself feeling more like me so I think that's kind of what pushed me more into it going to three days a week doing things like that and then um I think it was Gymshark who reached out to me about writing for International Women's Day.

And it was loads of things like that where I think people were starting to take an interest in my story and it actually made me stop and realise that, like, I've actually accomplished something really great. Even being able to get back into a gym, just to do one session a week was massive. It was something I'd never thought about. It was just, to me, something that I kind of had to do and I kind of do have to thank

my dad for kind of like pushing me and like making me do it in like a very like a not a nasty way kind of way um and yeah and it just kind of just went through like that but there was a time where it felt like something I had to do something that felt impossible to then something that I actually wanted to do so I was doing it more for myself and there's still times now where I struggle like I was on the m6 the other day when the m6 the m40 I still haven't learned the motorways I really don't know it just tell gets through to tell me where to go but um and there was an accident to the side of the road now I wasn't in the car in job says in a gym injury but whenever I see something like that it just honestly sets off so many emotions so many feelings this car

was van actually was turned totally on its side totally turned on his side um and I just remember going past it fire engines trying to get past me trying to cut this man out his car and I was only halfway I was going to burn was only half an hour away and like I just cried the whole rest of the way like to there and it was just like something one an hour away, and I just cried the whole rest of the way to there. And it was just like one of the things, the sounds of the fire engine, the ambulance, the blue lights, things like that just set off so many different memories. But now it's at a point where I can recognise you're feeling this way

because you went through something traumatic, but it's okay. You're safe and now you can process it. And even on the station this morning, someone right in front of me, she fell, she tripped. I think she's broken her knee actually. So I really hope she's okay. But she nearly fell onto the platform just right in front of me. And there's times like that where I'm remembered of what happened to me and not to take it all about me,

but I'm remembered about the fragility of life and how something like that can just happen. You're so right. And also I wanted to go back, I think, on that question I framed. I said something like that can just happen you're so right and also I wanted to I go back I think on that question I framed I said something like did you blame yourself and I didn't mean that I was actually really victim blaming way of saying it because as I said you're so right it's like this is just that is just part of the tapestry of life and I also kind of feel and I think I feel better thinking this but that like things kind of

happen for a reason yeah and if you start to think like that even if everyone's like it's not true it does just make things easier to deal with things happen for a reason I mean even if it's not true it might not be true but you can make the reason happen exactly make the reason even if it doesn't also your dad and your relationship sounds like the loveliest thing in the world like that's so nice but I've spoken I guess I was asking you then about like how did you find that personal motivation to go back to the gym after having such a traumatic incident. But the side of things I think we don't consider often especially as able-bodied people is irrespective of how much you want to do things the barriers to access don't exist. So we can talk about you having kind of like strength and ambition till the end of the day but that only goes so far yeah if the world isn't ready to be accessible for you actually one of the things that really annoys me is the saying of they'd never let their disability hold them back and people go but that's a nice thing to say and

I'm like no because every disabled person I've met any obstacle they've ever had is not put upon them by themselves it's it's an ableist infrastructure that has put that obstacle there and when you say something like that it makes it sound like the disability is the problem the disability is not the problem you and the infrastructure are the problem um so and when people said that to me don't let your disability hold you back and i'm like it wouldn't if you were more accessible we've literally worked out a way to go up into the air thousands of miles high and get from the uk to australia but a person in a wheelchair can't got in the tube like I think when you think of it like that it is like clearly we have the technology and the

ability to do it and people are so um I mean if even if you take like what happens today it's just because people don't think about it I mean a lot of it is some of it is like naivety and a bit of like innocent ignorance and then some of it is I don't want to spend money on that so it's not a loud problem so I can keep ignoring it, which does happen. But yeah, and I think a lot of people are just unaware. They just don't know. I think it all trickles into each other, though, because I think as we talked about before, like awareness, I think is the last thing. But I think that comes from the point of legislation not funding money into it, because there would be awareness if there was representation there would be representation if there was access and there would be access if our government

and the people with the power decided that actually we need to funnel more money into making sure that things are accessible so for could you kind of explain like some of the like day-to-day the most basic things that just you just can't do like but not because you're in a wheelchair but because the world because the access isn't there. But not because you're in a wheelchair, but because the world... Because the access isn't there, yeah. So, do you know what, it's really weird now to think, sometimes I haven't got my day before I was disabled and sometimes I can't remember it just because of how natural my day now has become to me.

So now even things like, I'm very lucky, a lot of people don't get this done, but I was very lucky to have my house adapted by the council. So I think when you're under a certain age or something to do with certain requirements, basically they will pay to have my house adapted by the council so I think when you're under a certain age or something like something to do with like certain there's certain requirements but basically they will pay to have your house adapted so I was very very lucky so because of them adaptions because of access I can now live in my house independently so I can you know just like you get up in the morning grab a shower you know grab my own coffee grab my breakfast get out of my house which for a

long time I could not do because i was waiting for the adaptions to be done so my adaptions in my house i have a slope going into my house because we did have two steps but now we have just have a slope um i have a wet room so basically a shower without a step so you just wheel into it and it's on suites in my bedroom um and then i do have a lift going from the dining room up to my bedroom so it just goes that just goes straight up so but i know a lot of disabled people who don't don't have them privileges so they can't even live in their own house independently things that they would be able to do if if that was there um but they can't so it then makes things like I mean before I had that them adaptions done like I

wouldn't been able to um my parents had to bring me in like a bowl of water and I would have to have like a bed buff but I'd be able to do it myself I mean some people can't but I would be able to do it myself but I wouldn't be able to jump up and go shower and it's things like that that I missed and when I got them back I think I started to appreciate all the little things a lot more and being a lot more grateful for them because I think that that's what makes you feel human it's not really about the big stuff it's about the fact that like and as you say because of the virtue of the fact that this can happen to everyone we all really should hope that we have this and and for the people that are already disabled but like it's just one of those things that might happen so we really should be more prepared for it yeah because i do think that

i can imagine that one of the most difficult i don't want to i have no idea actually i don't know why i'm talking as if i do but i think that like that independence that's what makes you feel alive this is a massive massive thing um as well like it's because when I mean since I've become independent and more and more growingly independent I've become so much more of a functioning member of society so I now contribute I can actually contribute to society um and not just in an economic way but in in so many other ways as well um and I think that is one thing that really gets missed is because a lot of...

I did a podcast going back, I think it was in December, talking about disability in the employment sector and there were some really shocking statistics of something like only 30... Don't quote me on this, but something around about 30% of people with a spinal injury return to work. Wow.

Only 30%. And then i think there's some really shocking statistics of like employers who just wouldn't hire a disabled person because they don't think that we are capable of functioning in that kind of environment because they haven't seen it because they haven't tried it but if there was the access of someone being able to get to work of someone being able to actually have a job to then start paying taxes to start paying rent mortgage you're then becoming a part of society which functions society to keep going but also functions you and like your social and mental health because you can you know where then

we've got a more of a level playing field you're more part of society you know you feel more like human yeah i think this is one of the massive things when it comes to disabilities there's so much stigma around it and it's kind of similar to the way that people view people who are in fat bodies like there's this idea that people who are disabled sometimes that like oh they're on disability benefits so this whole really really backhanded rhetoric around laziness and stuff and that's simply not true i remember speaking to a girl who had an invisible illness um and she would sometimes collapse and sometimes need to use a wheelchair but other times she could walk yeah and she was saying how she wanted to go to a shopping mall she rung them said do you have a wheelchair in case

this happens I think she had some kind of chronic pain illness maybe like fatigue yeah yeah I wasn't sure but she said oh yeah we do have wheelchairs this was only between the hours of like 12 and 3 and she was like well I've got a job and then oh that's only so even in that instance disability things assume that disabled people don't work so the hours for certain things that are like disabled focused will be in like um off-peak hours yeah or disabled toilets will be filled with chairs in Starbucks yeah like things like this where because we don't see people with disability out so often because it's physically almost impossible for you to get there yeah we then even the things that are there are done so badly and I do think the visibility thing is a huge issue that's massive yeah I mean I I know a few people with um who aren't full-time wheelchair

wheelchair users so me I'm a full-time wheelchair user I cannot walk without the wheelchair um i get out of it independently so i get into bed i get into my car um that's another thing as well like when i'm using my car people are just dumbfounded like they're shocked but i have a hand-controlled car so i drive with a hand accelerator and brake um really really cool totally adapted i take my chair apart from the driver's seat and put it over i pick it up over me but i can only do that because i've built up strength because i got back to the gym so it all kind of relates to each other but every time i pull up to a disabled bay people look at me filthy i pull up to their obviously i'm young um i've got beyonce playing i'm in a big audi and people think oh look here

comes another youngster like taking taking the you, you know, the piss. And it's always elderly people who just stare at me until the point where like, I wheel away from the car, they're glaring at me. And I'm like, what, why are you doing that? What is the point? This is already like doing a car to chair transfer is already something that is a little bit, you know, you still get a little bit of anxiety doing it every time. I mean, I just throw myself, but I know something's like some people find really nervous to do and when you've got people standing there staring at you because they don't believe you are disabled enough um it just it's just like it's so uncomfortable and it just it's one of the things that makes the experience of being disabled so much harder I remember when I was first injured I hated going out I hate socializing

because I knew if I met anyone new, they would ask me about my disability. So it got to the point where I really isolated myself off from meeting new people because I didn't want them to ask me any questions I wouldn't give them the opportunity to. So, I mean, they might have not have asked. They might have been very nice people who wouldn't have done. But I was I'm not giving the opportunity. I would kind of cut myself off from getting to know anyone so they wouldn't have the chance to ask what how do you think we can improve our relationship with the way that first of all that we view disability to move it away so much from being like the person focused and more society focused to be like how can we make you feel able in in an ableist society and also how do we change

people's perceptions on it like what what kind of things would you want to see going forward that maybe we as allies could try to help them for so that you're not doing all the work and you're not having to sit on a podcast every other week talking about it um i think it's really interesting people go so what would you want to change what do you want to do i think there's so many different levels and there's so many different types of ableism so you've got like physical ableism like one time this guy refused to open the disabled toilets me at stratford because he couldn't be bothered. Luckily, I had an able body person with me who was like, you need to do this right now. If it'd been me on my own, he probably wouldn't have done it. So there's instances like that where there's a physical

barrier. So say something like a step, a staircase is a physical barrier. And there was also, I was very lucky to be with an able-bodied person because then they can use their voice and their privilege to be this isn't good enough. You need to do something. But then there's also more kind of like subtle. I haven't even really coined a term for it. There is one, but more sort of like subtle ableism where the way we language and the way we talk. So I know like even some people say to me like, oh, how you doing? You know, I hope it works out for

you i'm like mate i've probably got a better career than you like my life is like amazing stop talking down to me yeah like do you know what i mean like and there's things that are so language and the way we talk and i think there's so many different angles to approach the way we're deconstructing ableism so i think it will take a massive, like a long amount of time to do so because it feels like a mountain to climb. And I think this is completely off topic, but it just reminded me of it. And people go, oh, but we've come so far because sometimes they see a disabled person on the train. And I'm like, yeah, to you, we've come so far. But when you're experiencing ableism every day, you don't have the time to wait another 25 years

for the tubes to be updated. And I think, so I think really the main thing to tackle all angles of it would be to have more disabled people at the table. Because as you say, people are naive or they're ignorant, whatever you want to call it, so they're not thinking about it. But if you've got disabled people at the table

saying, hello, hi, we need this, we're a part of this conversation people then might start to turn around and going oh oh shit didn't even think of that um you know like say for example um some disabled toilets they have bins in there which you have to press the pedal with your foot oh yeah to open if you have a disabled person at the um you know i don't know what's the board meeting whatever board meeting of who was designing that particular toilet or even disabled hotel rooms I've been in disabled hotel rooms before where I've gone back down

to the hotel and I'm like this is not a disabled hotel room there's not a rolling shower there's a bath of hand towels, this is a room for an elderly person, if you'd have had someone who was disabled at your board meeting when you were designing this hotel you would know that, so I think it's more about you know,

access to positions where disabled people can get across their experiences. Yeah, I think the other thing with ableism is that it's kind of like the last prejudice you're allowed to have. I think when it comes to talking about intersectionality, and I know I talk about intersectional feminism a lot, I do think that even I, I was actually writing, that's really funny, I was writing something earlier and I was going like talking about like homophobia transphobia fat phobia and I and racism and something and then the last thing I remembered was ableism yeah it

always gets missed off yeah yeah and but when before your accident were you did you feel do you feel like you've learned a lot more about it or would you feel like you were aware already did you did you did you know about ableism before oh no you're saying you already kind of like I would say before I think before my injury um I mean I was only 21 when I was injured so I was a really annoying little white girl I probably still am but um I was proper like you know racism is bad and I would be like oh my god racism is bad like I hate this I hate that but then would probably still talk over say a black woman when she was talking about her experience of racism not because I was like my experience is more

important than yours but because I didn't understand fully that it's her time to talk and it's not mine it's my time to listen so I think more than anything my injury has taught me that is that when it comes to a particular intersection it is the person who is marginalized by the intersection it is their their chance to talk and share their experiences. So I think now that's like the main the main thing I've learned. And I don't I don't know why ableism is constantly missed off the list. But then I kind of get into a position where I don't want to be constantly being like being left off the list. But then I don't want to be like demeaning the experiences or the marginalization of other intersections being like we're always left off you know you're

always talking about Black Lives Matter or you know gay rights because they are tremendously important and I we would do everything I could to be an ally and I don't want to be like my cause is more important but um we always seem to be the one that is like this left left off yeah no I and I don't think it's saying it's more important. I just think it's a very odd, it's just kind of like the last taboo. I just think that we haven't seemed to have, I think there's like a cognitive dissonance where everyone has almost collectively decided

that they don't want to talk about disability because it's too much of an upheaval. It's too difficult, we can't do that. No, because it seems when actually it's not really that hard like we're doing much crazier shit in this world than making things accessible and I do think I think it's laziness on the part of people with privilege who don't want to have to think about making these changes and even going back to my very first thing right at the beginning me just not thinking to check like because it is you have to be vigilant but you have to be as a person with

a disability vigilant why shouldn't we like it doesn't take that much out of everyone's time yeah to make one small change exhausting when it's every day of your life you're being you're being vigilant so it's like it is and sometimes I think like if I get like some comments on Instagram and things like that like if they're ableist or whatever sometimes I really pick and choose my battles because if I didn't and I fought every single one I would be exhausted all of the time And I feel like I'd be a lot more negative of a person. So, you know, we do need able-bodied people to start or to start even more sort of fighting our battles, not for us, but with us. Yeah. Because not just because, I mean,

there is an element of you could become disabled at any time, but there's also an element of I'm human, you're a human, I would fight for you if you needed me to. Yeah. So, there is an element of you could become disabled at any time, but there's also an element of I'm human, you're a human, I would fight for you if you needed me to. Yeah. So, yeah, that element of seeing disabled rights as human rights. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Can I ask you, have I said, because I still think ableism is something as well,

which I'm trying to get used to, and I notice I catch myself sometimes saying things which, especially talking about fitness, actually, it can be quite hard, not hard, but it can be new to talk about it in a way where i'm trying not to be exclusive to people who couldn't who have certain able-bodied privileges yeah have i said anything in this conversation just out of interest that you would think no there's nothing that i've picked up in this conversation no i mean there's i think the most important thing is that you're aware of that you could that you could say something that that some people wear that light. You'd be like, oh, I don't like the way you said that,

or this is how I would say it, and they'd get so defensive. Like, that is the only thing. I think when it comes to talking about ableism, I'm still learning every day, and sometimes I say something and I think, ooh, I need to unpack that. That's for later. But, yeah, and I think it's the ability to learn and to change. Like, when I was first disabled, I mean, my nan herself,

I mean, she has like cancer, it's in remission, but she's had a blue badge for ages. But she always has always called the blue badge an invalid badge because of her age. That's just what she knows it as. But then when I, and she's done it my whole life, I never picked up on it until I became disabled, until I got my own blue badge.

And she started saying, oh, we need to go to the invalid invalid parking and something really switched on on me where I was like no um and then she was like what did I say I've been saying that my you know my whole life I'm like yeah but now you're not and um yeah but I was very lucky that she's like I mean there was there's still times she'll slip up but now she'll slip up and go oh sorry I mean blue badge um but like she's trying you know she she understands now because she actually listened to what I was saying and she understood why that would be so hurtful to hear that. That story has just reminded me of like a really good point to make, because I think sometimes people don't understand ableism. But that word invalid, which is actually invalid. Yeah.

Which basically means you're not human. That is the cusp of what we're fighting against. It's like, no, just because you've had an injury, you're not suddenly not Sophie anymore. You're not just a faceless wheelchair user. That's what we're fighting. It's like bringing the humanity back into it. That's such an interesting point. And when you think about things like that, like the language that was used yeah it seems i was about to say crazy then i'm like oh my god is that a is that um like a shocking yeah yeah because

there's also like mental ableism as well so it does get quite confusing is there anything that you um specifically would want to bring up that i haven't touched on what you think is a really important point for people to think about sorry this is the thing this is such an i've done quite a few podcasts now but I've never actually done one where I've sat and talked about ableism and like disability like in depth I talk about all the time on like social media but it's nice to actually have sit down conversation with someone who isn't disabled and be like you know talk about different like depths of it yeah um because there's there's so many different I mean I'm very lucky I went through

the education system as an able-bodied person. So I haven't had to experience that side of the marginalisation. But yeah, I guess there are so many different elements to it that even I probably haven't even realised. There's education, employment, financial, social, even like if you're thinking about health. I saw someone the other day, I think her name's Shona, I follow her on Twitter and she's like a great disability activist and she was talking about how I think it was smear tests are pretty much inaccessible because she said they're not really catered for disabled women and you think it's something like that where it's completely missed off the feminist sort of radar isn't it? Yeah and you know you've got the health sector things like that but it's completely missed off the feminist sort of radar, isn't it? Yeah, and you've got the health sector, things like that.

But I think it would take me like maybe all week to go through like every single section. But yeah, I mean, there's so many things that I'm discovering all the time where it's a new experience and it's a new kind of marginalisation or it's a new thing that I now, right, great, that's something else I need to kick down or punch down or whatever but yeah there's this I think we've covered quite a lot of them

in a short time as well. Yeah that's good well I know it's been, we've been kind of focusing on the negative attributes that come with disability but I also want to say because you are carving a path for young women and men out there with disability and it just shows like even if bloody people won't employ you, you've fucking great like if you can't you might not be

able to get employed in an office but you've got a way better career online and actually maybe this will just pave the way for more people who are looking to get their voices heard and speak because I do think it's so important that we hear from people with disability not about disability just about them being them and happening to have a disability but I don't think we're quite there yet but I do think think we're quite there yet. But I do think that being able to see it more, like seeing is believing. The representation is a massive thing.

It's so important. And I think everything you're doing is really incredible. I'm very grateful that you came on. If people would like to find you online, where do they need to go? So you can find me on Instagram. I'm sophjbutler. Really regret picking that name,

but it's sophjbutler. And then YouTube, sophie butler really regret picking that name but it's sophie butler um and then youtube sophie butler um and then twitter although you might not want to follow me on twitter it can be a bit of a danger zone but that again is sophie butler amazing oh thank you so much for time thank you for having me i've absolutely loved it and thank you so much listening guys i will see you next week bye week. Bye! chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca.

Please play responsibly.