Adulting - #55 When Are We Living Our Best Life? with Lucy Mountain

Episode Date: March 15, 2020

This week I speak to fitness influencer, diet-culture fighter and soon to be podcaster about creating the career and life you want. Lucy Mountain is such an inspiration in the way she creates content, and has built her brand. This episode is sponsored by the sims. I hope you enjoy!Oenone xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, poddlters. I hope you're all doing okay in this very strange and uncertain time. But I guess it's kind of the perfect environment to be listening to podcasts and staying in and snuggling up. And this episode is a special one. It's when are we living our best lives? And it is with the wonderful blogger, author, soon to be podcaster, Lucy Mountain. And the reason I wanted to pick her was because this episode is in collaboration with The Sims, which is a game that i've played since forever and to be honest i'm probably going to be reintroducing more regularly to my life if i am going to have to be self-isolating in this current climate and the reason i speak to her is because she also loves the sims but she also being a fellow

influencer has sort of created her own life and we both have managed to be really in charge of what we're doing with our world it's kind of mad being in the position that we're both in and I absolutely love it and feel very lucky every day and I wanted to speak to someone else who perhaps feels like they've really got so much autonomy and agency in what they're doing so the conversation is just about kind of growing up on social media creating a career out of that the kind of highs and the lows of doing that um how we feel generally in life what we've learned over the years and just general chit chat we did record it in lacy's flat as all the studios in london that i use have been closed um because of what's going on so there might be a bit of beeping or a bit of noise and And I hope that that's not too distraction, distraction, distracting.

Sorry. And I hope that you enjoy it anyway. But yes, as always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye. Hi, guys, and welcome to Adulting. Today, I'm joined by Lucy Mountain. Thank you for having me. Thanks for having me.

We're actually at yours. On my sofa. So for people who don't know who you are or what you do, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? So I am I guess like a fitness influencer person but I yeah I live predominantly on Instagram and I do training programs for women who are feeling nervous about lifting weights I do do the whole Instagram thing as well um and that's kind of like they're like the top level notes of what I do but ultimately my platform is to kind of help women feel less weird about diet culture less weird about exercise less weird about food in general totally and this episode that we're doing is in collaboration with the sims which i actually one of the reasons i asked you to come on it is one because you love playing

the sims love it but two because you have created a role which probably when we were at school wasn't a thing and like the jobs that we have now weren't jobs when we were growing up and we very much have created a life for ourselves that you couldn't have imagined five years ago, 10 years ago. No. So what, compared to what you thought you were going to be when you were like 16, how is your life different? I very much, so when I was 16, I did the whole thing of, I don't know what to do. So I'm just going to be a teacher because that's all the job I've known and been around every day.

So I did everything I needed to do to become a primary school teacher did the placements got into uni doing primary school education and then I think it was my first week I sat down in class I remember being surrounded by everyone in like their pencil cases and folders and just being there like I don't want to work with children I don't like I don't I don't want to work with children I don't like them I don't want to like I don't want to work with children I don't like them I don't want to like I don't want to because it's such a hard course as well primary school education is so intense and I just sat there like I need to I need to change I need to move on to something else um so I called my dad and I was like dad I need to change to different course and I changed to my new best friend who

I'd known for a week I changed to her course which was media um but I'm really grateful because at the time I I felt like very lost and like I don't know what the hell I want to do but I knew I was I always felt quite creative I knew that I loved like video work influencing obviously wasn't really a thing then um but that doing that kind of led me to what I do now which I'm really grateful for but at the time like my dad was like what are you doing and they're super relaxed but he was also like Lucy what are you doing I think all of our careers tend to be such like happy accidents because at the age of 18 no one's gonna know what you're gonna be like I'm so glad that I fell into this and I do feel like I've ended up kind of where I should have been

in a really roundabout way. Yeah. But I don't think that we're given enough tools to know how many jobs there are. Like, the older I get, do you not find out about a job? You're like, oh, my God, I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah. Even now, every day. Do you remember in school, though?

I don't know if your school did this. You'd do, like, a test. And it would, like, give you a list of jobs that, like, you should apply for based on what you put in. But I jigged mine to make it say doctor. Like, I on purpose answered it in a way so it would be like, you you a list of jobs that, like, you should apply for based on what you put in. But I jigged mine to make it say doctor. Like, I on purpose answered it in a way so it would be like, you're going to be a doctor. Because it was like, you could, like, cheat it. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Because if I didn't, I don't know, I was just like, yeah, I'm definitely going to be a doctor. Never did that. I got, like, geographer. Did you? I don't listen to you for, like, being outside, like, in the mountains. And, like, some of my, like, most intelligent friends would get, like, really non-academic jobs. Like, really, like, non-academic jobs like

really like labor labor jobs and they were like how has that come out of that so when it comes to like your work that you're doing because it is really creative and it's interesting that you say that you love making videos because you do especially like your ad content it's always really creative I actually fucking hate since I doesn't matter actually it's my podcast I hate that kind of thing stresses me out like the production side of things. How did you get into that? Do you think it was because you enjoyed playing games and stuff that you had an affinity towards that kind of creation? Yeah, like, it stems back to Pixo. Do you remember Pixo?

I think I'm, like, two years older than you, so maybe you missed the moment with Pixo. But I used to, like, design my own little websites, like, back in the day. I'm not talking about coding. It's, like, it would be, like, within a platform. But I used platform but I used to do I used to pay yeah for sure it did stem from them but I think obviously now like winding the years forward the reason I loved it because I really love doing brand content and yeah when I get a brief through it I'm like yes um I love it because it's almost like a mini art project I'm like how can I do this brief in my style I think I definitely got a style which I used to then mold around brand work so I think

when you have a style it's easier but there was a period where I would like you know I'd do the classic blogger thing where it's like right I'm gonna pay a photographer to take pictures of me in the street in a sports bra like that was that was that was producing content that's what you'd have to do to be a fitness influencer whereas now like I can't imagine anything more terrifying or like more point like it would get no likes if I did that and also what you do is actually really creative I find that sometimes I don't as much anymore but if someone said to me like you're a content creator I'd be like I'd take a selfie and then I'd post it on my Instagram I don't think that's content creation because I think what you do really is really

creative like your videos you do and your food comparison things and like you properly set it up it must take quite a lot of time yeah I do love it like for example one of my favorite brand content that I did recently was with Svessi Betty. And I put the plum, is it plumbot? The green thingy, yeah. So I put that on top of my head. And I really love that. I love that. Because I learned a new skill doing it.

I know it's like a TikTok, like, filter now, which I'm really annoyed about. Oh, is it? So you could have done that really easily. Yeah, I could have done that now. That's so annoying. But, like, I, it's good, though, because you kind of learn new skills. And, you know, I try and make it fun for people to watch because, let's face it, our content can be so boring. Yeah, so boring.

And, yeah. Okay, so let's take it back to when you first started Instagram and you, did you start off as the Fashion Fitness Foodies? Was that your original name? It was on Tumblr and it was Fashion Fitness food official oh love it honey and then i remember like i remember scrolling when i moved on to instagram with it i remember scrolling through some someone's account and i realized that there was someone called fashion fitness food and her account was fucking sick it was so nice i can't i can't have this name so I changed it to the fashion fitness foodie um which I hated like since day one um and then I changed it to Lucy Mountain only like a few months

ago but I love that it was the fashion fitness foodie because that was kind of what we all I don't know why but all of all women we are like the same generation in the different ages like that's kind of like all we wanted to talk about was fashion fitness and food I don't know why it was such a cultural thing wasn't it because we would be like oh my god I go to the gym but I also have wear like really nice top top jenny jeans and then like whatever else those jeans I fucking I remember being really jealous that that was your username because mine was the tiny tank and I was like oh yeah it's so it's so restricted like I can only talk about fitness and I feel so like restricted with my Instagram using it honestly it was so ridiculous I would get so hyped up but I remember we'd like

have a whole conversation our group chat about how like I felt like I really couldn't like move away or talk about anything else and it was so ridiculous as well because obviously no one really gives a shit like it might impact you but you kind of you said from once I was DMing you and I was like I don't understand you'd put a meme and I was like I don't understand this and it was about like you'd posted it on your screen it was like you you get trapped in your own creativity yes like yeah and it took me for some reason I kept reading it wrong and I couldn't understand what it was so it was like we as women we create these tiny little like pens for ourselves and then we complained about being trapped inside a little weird pen but yeah like it I 100% I felt like that for sure like maybe three years ago because I was much more um when I was doing just few comparisons and infographics it was like

everything had to be so perfect yeah and pictures of me had to be like the perfect lighting perfect shade of white in the background and like yeah I felt very like tied to it I yeah I used to feel so tied to it as well and I think like now I do like a different now mine's really varied so I feel like that's so much better for me but it was quite a funny you would get so hooked up with this idea that you had to do this exact thing when actually like no one was telling me how you just you just thought that yeah no one cares yeah but when you very first started out like what was your what was your aim with your page when it began because I think we had like a similar journey of um awakening to talk about things in the way that we do now because I feel like did you all start off quite as very much like a dieting page it was like my very very first post

was I think it was like it was like a magazine that's my first few posts it was almost like writing so as a magazine and I didn't say who I was I was talking about like fitness topics and I made like these weird graphics it's very odd I have to like I'll pull it up for you at some point and show you but then eventually it became more about me my health journey hashtag my journey um and yeah it was the thing is in my head I always felt like I was so switched on and so like balanced and healthy but I think you always do to a degree you always feel normal in your head but looking back at the post like it was like so many problematic things that I was saying um and you know it's just the nature of having a platform and sharing as you go but yeah I was very much about like clean eating you know really like

a fearful of carbohydrates but that it wasn't it didn't feel like it didn't feel restrictive at the time I was like this is just normal yeah I'm supposed to feel I'm supposed to not eat pasta and that's fine yeah totally and the irony was I used used to post these really long captions about how I was so balanced about the same time I've gone to the gym twice that day and was eating egg whites. Yeah. But I would write the longest thing. And I would mean it. Whereas now, I live such a balanced, vertical lifestyle where I really do not restrict anything.

But I would never talk about it because I'd be like, it's not, I can't. You do it well because you really toe the line really well. I'm too scared to talk about food. It's so political now why because I feel like no matter what I say someone's gonna get triggered like and a bit like you were saying like you did a post the other day and you were kind of like trying to encourage people to to see like it's fine to eat a chocolate bar like the serving sizes I never read a serving size but when I do I'm like oh this I was eating like a family of fives yeah like what's the share bag also hot

that air now like there's nothing in them but you were saying how people will always find something to get pissed off about and I think with food because it's so personal like we all have to eat people will always have an opinion yeah when did you decide that you were going to focus on the food bit because I guess that for a while it was just predominantly food and the fact the fashion and the fitness weren't necessarily there as much. Yeah no but it never really never really was I think the fashion thing was like me like wannabe fashion blogger which never happened so it wasn't cool enough but like yeah the food stuff I think it definitely stemmed from the culture of you know take a picture of your meal it's just easy content and then I think as I unpicked and uncovered these kind of like myths

around nutrition but when I was uncovering these myths right it was still under the veil of diet culture so it's still like you know oh my god I'm gonna eat this chocolate bar because it's 20 calories less than this one yeah guys like this one you can eat this chocolate this chocolate's actually really good yeah 20 calories less and it was still under this veil of like still pretty fucked up um but I was so into it but then I got obsessed with kind of unpicking that and it just it was kind of like my inner narrative and like I said I was doing these infographics the infographics kind of shifted and changed and it was a really slow journey and I think you know even now there's still I'm I'm under no impression that the way I view food now like in five years time I'm sure I

feel differently again yeah and I think it's always an ongoing journey and it's never like okay guys I made it through I'm out the other side I feel so cool and balanced about everything I think you're always because your life is always changing you're always going to have to try and adjust and your relationship with food will adjust accordingly as well um you know my I I haven't drank so like it sounds awful but like I drink so much nowadays and I didn't yeah and I and I didn't like you know it's since being single obviously but like if you're going on dates you're going out more of your friends and you're just genuinely happier I find that I drink so much more and that has been like a bit of a weird thing for me because I'm like oh actually if I drink my diet's changed now because I drink a lot yeah and then the next day I don't feel as good and I'm actually having to be a bit

more like oh maybe I should not get totally wasted on a Wednesday as much anymore you know and it is funny but we all kind of went there's like a group of like influence I feel who all came up at the same time had the exact same arc of a journey with food but we were all really orthorexic and pretending to be really healthy and then everyone's ending was like oh fuck this is really bad and now everyone's sort of like yeah we still go to the gym but we just don't want to talk about it that much kind of like do you know what I mean yeah but you touched on like that like about being single and stuff and we've kind of talked about I guess how you created a career and now

it's so cool that you got to pay you're being paid to do stuff that you really want to do and it adds value and it's great but how does your life outside of your career how has that changed like how do you feel like you've grown up in a way that you maybe didn't expect do you feel like you're the woman that you would have expected yourself to be are you happy where you are I'm so happy for sure now I mean it's I've had like such a weird year but I think when I was in fact it was when I was leaving uni I definitely thought I was gonna be like with my uni boyfriend Johnny and we were gonna get like a flat in Nottingham and like we were gonna buy it and like probably have kids by 25 um obviously that none of that happens and get like a flat in Nottingham and like we were going to buy it and like probably have kids by the time I was 25. Obviously none of that happens and I got a job in London and I was like, see you later.

But yeah, I mean, I never viewed myself as someone who, for example, like with the knobs community, I would always shy away from anything which meant that I was in charge. And to a degree, I still do do that so briefly for people who don't know what knobs is it's your no bs which is like your online it just starts off as you saying that you're on no bs yeah it's like no bullshit yeah and it was more like my brand was like no bullshit and then it adapted to making a facebook group for the people from instagram so everyone could talk to each other and then it became team knobs and then from there it just existed yeah um but we meet up like we're meeting up this

Saturday and going for brunch and stuff so it's a really great community but with knobs I I wouldn't have ever viewed myself as being able to manage a community because I just don't want to be like for example now if I'm going to go out for dinner I don't want to pick where to go I'm like oh can someone else just pick because I don't like it and it's such it's always been such a massive part of my character but you know a few years ago I would never have thought I would be self-employed making money for myself and relying on myself to make my income living by myself and having a community that is kind of centered around what I do it's weird how

do you feel about it now with the knobs because obviously I feel like you and your ex used to do it together so have you just completely taken it over now yeah yeah I'll pick it up for you there you go bit of like texture in the background um yeah so we started together by the way like you know managing doing a business together with a partner is the thing that everyone says, like, don't do it. And we already worked together in the beginning. But we were like, let's do a separate business together. And, you know, for the, however long it was, a year or a year and a half, it was really good. And we made something really special.

We did our two workout plans together. It was great. But then when you're living together, working in your actual day-to-day jobs in my old full-time role with him, and then having a separate business on the side, it's so hard to see that person as like, you're my boyfriend and I'm your girlfriend. And, you know, when you're out for dinners,

when you're so motivated and excited, you're like talking about, oh my God, we're going to do this and we're going to add this. And you really lose that kind of romantic side of your relationship and you almost become business partners rather than what you started out as boyfriend and girlfriend so that was a real shift and when we split up I had like a month and actually it sounds so embarrassing I got a life coach right because I don't know it sounds like the most privileged thing ever,

but I needed to spend that money on myself. And I decided to get a life coach because I was like rock bottom with my confidence. I was like, I can't do this business by myself. I can't do it. I physically can't do it. But I also knew that I needed to show up for the community still and continue on.

So I got this life coach, Wendy, and she really helped me. And she literally was like, it's just basically someone being like you can do it just do it and when you're freaking out and you're going through all the motions and also like managing a breakup at the same time as trying to keep going with the business it's really hard um so yeah it was mad but I'm so thankful you know I did that I Breakups are literally one of the hardest things in the world. Like, I've had two or maybe three big breakups. What is that beeping? I don't know.

I think it's, like, it's a truck that's turning round. Is it going to stop? It's OK. Hopefully it won't. Anyway, I've had, like, so many big breakups, and they actually are, like, there's something about a breakup that is, like, the hardest thing to get over like whenever anyone messages me and I'm sure you get it all the time loads of people always DM me when they're going through a breakup and like what

do I do yeah and I'm like I don't know what to say but you just have to wait it out but they're so much harder than they sound like they're really trivial but they're not it's like someone dies but I guess it's interesting you were saying like you're in a relationship at uni which is kind of similar to me and then you went into a relationship and then now you're single I guess for the first time in a while and you're being more independent and are you enjoying this time of having the freedom because I like I mean I'm seeing someone now but I love dating and I think after every breakup you emerge as like a new version of yourself the version that you kind of always knew you wanted to be but felt like you couldn't be when you're with that person so it's so fun going like going on a date and being that person

after the breakup and being like no this is me now this is my life and this is the person I am and it's almost like with every I find I think in my longer-term relationships I will always lose myself to a degree I just do and I don't know if that's just who I am or just the nature of long term relationships. But I struggle with that. And I think now more than ever, dating, you know, seeing people, I just love it. Because I'm like, I can just be the person I want to be. And whether they like it or not is like on them. They can, you know, they have to take it or they

don't and that's it I think you're so right about um I've definitely been in a relationship where it's been like codependence where I've like literally lost my whole self and had no personality left and was like a product of this environment but I think every relationship you do lose you obviously lose a bit of your not your identity but you lose a bit of your freedoms like even your time where it's dedicated but I think you can like guard yourself against it like in my relationship with Matt now you seem to have got

such a good time I feel like I'm just so myself but at the same time I still know that obviously you still don't have the same level as you do at freedom and it's really bad but because I've had

so many bad breakups every time I've had a breakup I've like levelled up and become better so if Matt and I ever break up God for bigs I absolutely adore him I'm like

well I'll just be better I'll just be because I think something happens where because you're then like you're given all that free time back like it feels really sad and then suddenly you're like a phoenix rising out of the ashes and you're like and then you're like reborn i was so the guy like honestly i was having this conversation with the guy i'm seeing the other day and he was like what would you do if i ghosted you right now and i was like because he's like he's like I'd be he's like I'd be absolutely femic if he goes to me but I was like I feel like if he goes to me and I can say this hand on heart like it'd be shit but I'll just be like okay yeah and

and you know you work through it and you get over it and then you just become stronger and I think I always view breakups as getting stronger and if someone I know is going through a breakup I'm always like this is so exciting yeah like honestly I know you feel shit now but in two months time you were gonna feel so yeah alive and it's also because I think like now I'm I always think with anything with any of my friends anything happens if it doesn't work out like it's not meant to be so you just can't get hung up on it like they're not there's no point chase I think when I was younger I used to like chase things and I feel like I've done a lot of growth and I feel like and I wonder if you'll feel the same way but weirdly being on Instagram I think that's like made me a better person yeah I think because

you're like first of all people trust you and like when I first started I used to reply to every DM so when I had like a few thousand followers not like you wouldn't get loads we might get like five a day and I just used to speak to people for hours and having that access and that responsibility and people feeling like what you said mattered meant what you said and the way you acted mattered way more yeah it was quite formative to me growing up did you find that that impacted you how old were you when you started your Instagram I was I mean I've been doing it for like seven years now so it's like my early early 20s but yeah I so I I used to do like the whole dm thing and I remember going to like blogger events and everyone would be like I applied to all my and it was like such

like a prestigious thing so true yeah like I applied to all my dms because I care so much but like to a degree when someone is dming you that's part of your time and it's so nice to connect but I find if I if I am in my comments too much or if I'm you know scrolling other people's pages and getting too involved I I lose my mental energy so fast and it really depletes me so in order for me to have a good happy mental health today I can reply to a few messages and it sounds I hate saying that because it's like guys I get you know so many messages and I can't write to all of them and it sounds like really wanky but I think you have to maintain like a healthy relationship with what you give and what you put out and it

has to be a good balance well I know I I think it's such a tricky one because I do think I've got so many things to say on this first of all I agree now what I do is I do a post and I'll either like for 20 minutes after that post reply to the comments or I'll go okay eight o'clock I'm going to go back onto the post and go through the comments and reply. But with DMs, I invariably don't answer. One, because you start off, it's not like you can reply. It tends to end up being like a conversation. You can get stuck in that conversation for hours. And no one would expect you in a job role to answer.

They're not straightforward job questions. They might be really personal. And then also, you're not a counsellor. When I first started personal training, did you ever ever do online coaching or did you go straight into PTing in person no I did online I went I was doing a lot yeah and did you used to get the clients being really like are you and end up being a counsellor I think with me because I was working with Dan and for me with the knobs guide stuff it wasn't like I was doing straight online coaching where I'd have like specific clients we just did knob stuff straight away yeah so we kind of launched it and we just had like loads of

knobs ready to do our program and our guide and because it's like a standardized program oh you're not it's not it's not like individual bespoke stuff it's like the kind of more general stuff we never really we never had that but at the same time we also gave that by doing the group and we do like our weekly live streams and stuff so but it was always on our terms but you've got boundaries up around it yeah it was never like we didn't have individual clients being like oh can you just help me with this part or can you do this we'd only give what we could do you know what yeah so it always felt very much on our terms but it's not I mean I get messages sometimes of you know knobs who are in the gym and they'll

be like can I can I swap this for this and I'll be like sure and it's quick and it's easy yeah you know you can help them there in the moment but sometimes I imagine with online coaching maybe with yours it'll be such big massive questions and you're like well that's gonna maybe cost another three hours of my time but I used to step all night like I would get so it was mad and I but i didn't know this i was so young and people also then it would end up because we were talking about food and we'll talk about this bit but people's relations with food are so complicated i know this i've had such disordered eating in the past and finally got over it now and like really do have a good relation

with food yeah but i would spend hours talking to women who probably had eating disorders but that's not really i'm not qualified to do that yeah i'd be up to like 4 a.m then but i just had a binge and i would cared so much i really thought but they'd be paying me like 100 pounds a month for like a program and I was putting in like eight hours a day just speaking to them about that and it kind of leads me on to my question of what what do you think why do you think we influencers I think and we spoke about this before but the reason the influence exists I think is because we all especially as women like looking for guidance and someone to tell us what the right way to live our lives is yeah and I feel like I used to feel like that and now I feel so independent

of that and I'm happy to wear whatever the fuck I want to wear eat what I want to eat do what I want to do but did you feel like that in your 20s you feel so much more lost than you're expecting to and then you come out of it oh for sure yeah for sure you I think you kind of leave uni I think actually leaving uni is a really really tough time mentally for so many people and it's not talked about enough and you're kind of ejected into the world for the first time from going from school to sixth form to uni and you're like what am I doing I'm living back with my parents. I've got no job. You know, I had therapy because I felt so depressed and so low. And I'm like, this is just not what I expected. And then doing the whole Instagram thing, you know, you follow the crowd, you try and mimic what a fitness influencer, whatever that is,

is. You wear the clothes, you wear the sports bras, you do the same post. I crack up every time I get like your Instagram memories. Oh my God, I know. Posts I used to put like four years ago of like a picture of my foot in a trainer every time I get like a you know like your Instagram memories oh my god I know post I used to put like four years ago of like a picture of my foot in a trainer and I'm like how was this my content why do people care I used to do pictures in the mirror oh my god I just want to die I've actually archived them all but I bum pictures and I would just just be like I used to take me hours to get like the right I now don't the way I used to look at my body before in a picture I would take so many to get like the, the right eye now. The way I used to look at my body before in a picture, I would take so many to get, like, the perfect angle.

Now I just get you to take a picture of me sat here. And I looked at a picture I posted the other day, and I was like, that's so funny, because if I'd seen that years ago, I wouldn't have posted it, because, like, my tummy wasn't completely flat when I sat down or something. Yeah. I just couldn't give less of a fuck now. So I was editing, before you came, I was editing a workout video

that I was going to post on Nobs Guide Instagram. And I was editing the thumbnail, and I was going to post on Nobs guide Instagram and um I was editing the thumbnail and like I just like I had the realization of like this image I'm looking at now like I would not have ever felt comfortable having this let alone as a thumbnail in a video but I'm just like I don't care and I like that my I actually I know it sounds like um like it's not real but I genuinely like that my stomach has a bulge on there because I'm looking at and I'm like this just looks like a normal girl working out it's just like I mean I don't like to use the word normal because what the fuck is normal anyways but like it just look it's me it's my body and it's how I look when I train and it's not this kind of perfect you know

super flat stomach with a big bum like my my ass looks like it doesn't fucking exist from the angle it's awful like it's it's quite a bad picture which I would have hated before yeah but now I when I was editing I was like this is actually sick like I'm gonna put it on there and not think too much about it I think you save so much mental energy now yeah as to what you would be like trying to get the right picture editing it making sure it looked good now it's like okay cool and also no one, no one notices. And I do think like,

even now there's a girl that I follow, who's just, I love, and she's so beautiful and she's like skinny, but she's like not like her body isn't like perfect. Like she has a bit of a tummy and every time I see it and she's like really happy and she'll have like a really low rise bikini on, it like does something to me. I'm like,

it's like so nice to see it because it just makes me feel so relaxed and because she's never once referenced it's not what she talks about at all like I shouldn't really notice it I think because it looks a bit like my tummy I can't get over how for how long I was so brainwashed into thinking that even like working out in yoga and I used to be like oh my god I wonder if I bend back like if I'll get like a back roll obviously you're gonna get a back like it's physically impossible yeah to do that and not get it yeah um and I do think I think it's funny because I think we're getting better I think that like how my body looks now I generally think like five years ago I wouldn't have been able to think that this looked okay and I do think like the tininess that we just

used to want to be isn't as bad but do you think for like younger women that they're still or not even young women but for a lot of people they're still really trying to fit into this tiny paradigm of body ideals i think so but um you know i i grew up in like the 90s where it was like the it wasn't even the fit slim look it was like you just anorexic super yeah, like Nicole Richie, Lindsay Lohan, all these women who are actually like battling race, eating disorders. At the time you were like, oh my God, that's what I want to look like. So I think it's always going to change and adapt. I think there always will be an ideal. You know, even with the most mainstream plus size models, they've still got a chiseled jawline and they've still got like such a perfectly

even face and you know they've still got like a smaller waist and there will always be a degree of an ideal um but I think I think if we were to compare the way it was maybe five years ago to what it is now there is much more representation and we have socially need to thank for that it's not all negative but you have to encourage people to actually find those accounts because it's much harder to like stand out when you're in a sea of people with these kind of goals bodies it's really hard for people to stand out so you have to kind of seek them yeah yeah I was just thinking about this like in conjunction with the sims and stuff and like how it's so fun when you're younger I freaking love the sims like like just play it for hours and hours on end and create this life and it's so fun it was so safe because you're doing it and it's like removed from you the weird thing about

social media is like especially with this like trends of how people look it's like we're turning ourselves into a game like our real life is like a game. So instead of like having a game in like a safe space and you can play it and then you go back to like your normal life. We want to be in reality this like, like I do. I constantly want my eyes to look like almondy. You know how it's like a thing at the minute. And it kills me because my eyes like point downwards. Have you seen what people do?

So I ended up in this really weird... So it's like a plastic surgeon, and he does these things where he, like, he, like, pins people's... Is that why people's eyes all look like this? Well, so basically it was, like, Kendall Jenner and Bella Hadid and whatever, but he was, like, he pins people's eyes back.

And that's, like, a very normal procedure now because it's so trendy. But this is a recent thing. It's very trendy now to have eyebrows which are like, you know. Pointed upwards. Yeah, that's the trend now. And it's always fluctuating. Like, that wasn't a thing.

Like, I don't feel like that was a thing a year ago. I don't remember knowing anything about, like, other people's eye shapes before. Whereas I'm so acutely aware if someone has that, like, almondy eye. I'm like, oh my god, I want to look like that. Yeah, me too. I have that too. And, you know, I have my thing, you know, get your face out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Encouraging women to feel cool about their face. I made it because I don't and I didn't and I still don't feel good about my bare face. And I would say more than anything, that's probably one of my biggest hangups, not wearing makeup and, you know, being seen in front of other people.

And I still, I force myself to be okay. And I tell myself I'm okay. But at the root of it, I still find it hard. And I do the same thing. I think about my eye shape and I'm like, what am I doing? Yeah. But I still have those thoughts and they never really go. What's so weird about the face thing is when I was younger,

I was so confident without makeup. Like, I couldn't give a shit. As long as I had a fake tan on, I never cared. And now, because of Instagram, so sometimes it's really weird. In day-to-day life, when I'm out and about, I feel really confident. But if I think about it too much or, like, if I look at my face for too long, I'm like, my nose is too big, my lips are wrong. But I've only just, the reason why I can get over these ideas

is because it wasn't, like, from the age of 10 I've only just the reason why that I can get over these ideas is because it wasn't like from the age of 10 I've been really insecure it's like I can literally map where these insecurities yeah have come from and I think that's like kind of the bit of the weird thing but I think it like for guys it's just it I always want to be like and men but really they don't have these same things like no men get plastic surgery on their faces really do they yeah whereas like the majority of women that I know living in London will get botox before they're 30 will probably go and get their lips done i've thought about getting my lips done i can't even tell you how many times really i literally think about it all the time do you because i just see people i'm like

would i look better and that's always like but why what's it gonna do and i'm like he's like why is it attractive i'm like i don't know but i I want it. I've had so many really interesting conversations. And I think initially before I used to be very much like anti-surgery, anti-people getting Botox, whatever. And I'd be like, you know, why would you do that? I'm against, this is not, this is not feminist. This is not what we should be doing. But the older I get, the more I'm kind of like you know what if people need to do that like do it if you need to do it but it we can't if we're gonna say do it we also I think we owe it to ourselves to understand why we're doing it yeah and where it comes from and it does come from this place of like women having to fit these ideals of having full cheekbones and I one thing

I hate about myself don't my jaw that's my least favorite thing in the world I had a photo shoot the other day and I was telling the photographer I was like this is my fact she was like what's the fact I was like it's a face neck yeah and I was like I've had it since school and we're taking pictures and I was like I could do this and I try and like hide it with my arm and she's like there's nothing wrong with your neck and she'd show me this picture and she went your face it's beautiful and I was like I look like a seal because my I'm like a pelican neck this picture is absolutely awful I saw that picture and I was like oh yeah this is exactly what I get I was like I look like a thumb and I hate I hate having these thoughts because it makes me feel like what am I all the

things I preach on about Instagram all the things I say all the support I try and shower on other women when I have these thoughts and these places where I feel like crap and I have these horrible things that go through my mind I feel shame yeah I feel ashamed about it I feel ashamed but I think you have to give yourself a break at the same time and be like I'm still a woman in this world where you know to to have a chiseled jaw is like a massive trend right now. And, you know, when you don't have those things, it's really hard and you do, it does affect you still.

I still get those thoughts, same as you, and they'll pop up. But the reason why I think, and I'm sure you're the same, why I've never actually acted on it and why it actually doesn't ruin my day, it doesn't really do anything. I just kind of think about it. It's not like a deep-rooted thing.

Whereas when I was younger, I had a real, like, really bad problem with my body. But I realised that was because, like, I wasn't happy. Whereas now, I think one of the biggest things that we don't really talk about is how important, like, career fulfilment is. So when my job is going well, I'm ecstatically happy and I think I'm, like, I think I look great.

Whereas if something goes wrong, I, like, turn to look at my physical self and, like, use that as, like, a scapegoat for whatever's going on. Yeah. And I think, like, creating your life in a way that I'm sure you'll attest to this, but, like, we both, like, have had, like, a health and fitness journey. But it's so simple, I think. If you've got a certain level of privilege and you're living above the poverty line, the things you can do to make you happy are literally just like going to bed on time and like make sure you socialise and not going on the phone too much.

Yeah. And like being really careful with your money. Like it's all the stuff that when you're younger, your parents kind of try and tell you and you don't listen to. And I'd be like, I want to live fast, die young, yeah? Like that every night. So well done. And like in a funny way, life is a bit like a game.

And I think about this all the time. I'm like, it's actually so simple. But if one thing goes wrong, say you don't like get paid on time that month or like you break up with your boyfriend like it can tipple it's like dominoes and everything comes crashing down and that's when I think you're vulnerable to feeling like right I'm just gonna go get a boob job or whatever it might be yeah when you're at your lowest that's when you're most vulnerable and like you say it's so easy to just be like I feel like shit I'm gonna go and it's it's even things like um you know using food a lot when you are feeling down and and I say this

if you need to use food for a bit to feel better like crack on it's there for comfort and you know it can be a tool for a period of time and that's fine amongst other tools but I think yeah you you automatically will when you feel like crap you automatically think like okay where can I what can I do this energy yeah what can I do this energy right I'm gonna you know I'm gonna pick myself apart whereas I mean you're loving your job and loving life you don't have time to be sitting around just being like oh I wish my eyes looked more almondy you know it's so ridiculous you're like, I wish my eyes looked more almondy. I know, it's so ridiculous. You know, like, me thinking, like, oh, I wish I had a more defined chin. And it's like, yeah, when you feel like shit, you do, you just do. And it's also, like, I think that's why people troll.

I mean, it's such a tired thing now to be like, oh, people who troll are, like, really upset with their lives. But I do think that we were saying how, we were talking about how there's a podcast that we both listen to and I've never, ever, ever reviewed anything in my life, but they said something about how, like, institutionalized racism doesn't exist. And I couldn't have written a review faster. I was like, one star, this is ridiculous.

It obviously exists, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, my God, that's so interesting. When I was, like, had a negative emotion towards something, I felt the need to comment on it. But there's so many other things I listen to constantly, and I'm like, in my head, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever heard and don't say anything yeah I think it's the same on Instagram like how do you deal with do you get much trolling not really no I mean what what what I get is I like to do posts which are like satirical most of the time I just love it and I feel like because of that a lot of my community they just get it and it

actually is so nice for us we have a lot of like ongoing jokes there'll be things I put into my infographics for example soil I'll put like yeah so when I'm doing my food pictures I'll just finally put so and I won't reference it and like they get it because I've been doing this for like a year and they fucking love it they're like soils and I love doing that because it's it's just so nice yeah it's like in jokes with people you've never met before but then there will be some people who don't get the humor and they'll be like deeply offended by something you've said or they or a lot of cultures are much more literal and they they don't understand stuff right so going back to the soil someone dm'd me the other day and said I have to tell you this I was in a meeting and it was about it's by an HR department and it was about how social media can be really

damaging we all need to be careful about how we're using it and they pulled up one of my infographics and was like look there's people out here are saying we should eat soil and she was like oh my god he took it so literally of like you know there's people out here saying we need to eat soil to be healthy and I just I find it so funny but the the worst the comments which I get a lot of time will be that you know or it'll be I do get I wouldn't call it trolling but I'll get a comment where it's like oh maybe you shouldn't have said that or maybe the word and I and then that's just taking it on the chin and having feedback and it's not it's not trolling but you're like okay cool um that's just like I on the chin and having feedback. And it's not trolling. But you're like, okay, cool.

That's just like, I actually find it really helpful when someone critiques me in a helpful way. Because that's kind of what I was saying earlier. Like, I've learned. The reason I became woke in that comments is because my audience kept being like, you shouldn't say. But in a really nice way. They wouldn't be like, you shouldn't say that. They'd be like, oh, just to let you know, if you said something like that, it could be that this. And honestly, I've learned

so much from my audience I've never taken it as like criticism I've never I actually do you know what it is and this is kind of we were talking about this

before as well but Instagram's so different like the way the algorithm works but before I would get way more rude comments because lots of random people would see your post whereas now I think

it's pretty much just your audience who sees them and in that way I feel like I never really get anyone being rude to me because they know what they're looking for no one needs finding my Instagram it's when they've been locked in for years that's it yeah but if something went on

Facebook or something I remember when I was on an egg video of mine went on Facebook and people were like sending death threats on what because it was on loud bible but so many people see it they get like it's mad like the weirdest it was like my egg video remember when i used to do this cutting compilation i remember it so well and some people were like her hands are really ugly like i wasn't even in the video and it was absolutely mad and something about facebook and it's a bit they're like daily mail commenters it's like the same category of people um and it's really weird to be so scrutinized I think we're grateful in an age where you actually I feel like I've got so much agency to create when I talk about feminism all

the time we definitely there's so many instances where we need it but I also am so grateful like especially if I compare it to my mum's and what she grew up with and her opportunities I feel like I'm so lucky to be in this position where like I have this life that I love but whenever I speak to other people I think maybe I'm maybe I've got too much of a positive spin on it because we do it but I'll be like oh my god you should just do it I'm like you should you should just go freelance and you should start an account do you get like that with people oh yeah and I'm sure it's so annoying for people like because I remember being that person that was, even when I had, like, enough followers to maybe earn enough income to live okay, all the same as my job, I would stick my nose up and people would be like, just quit your job. Just leave your job and just do it.

And I'd be like, no, fuck off. I want to be in this job. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, because you carried off for ages, didn't you? Yeah, I've been freelancing for, like, a year. But, like, yeah and I get so annoyed and I'll be like oh but it's only like since being freelancing it's when you prove to yourself you can do it you're like oh but I love being around people for example talking about me doing my own podcast at

some point if I didn't have someone saying you do it you could do it then I wouldn't do it so I'm so glad to be around other creative people who were like like fuck it what what have you what are you so fearful of I think often we are fearful of like the unknown but what is the unknown what's the worst that's going to happen no one listens to your podcast cool move on yeah exactly you know no one you were talking about your your stand-up like what's the worst that's gonna happen no one's gonna laugh yeah um okay cool move on this is what um sarah pascoe actually spoke about this it's really funny she's about stand-up and she said the exact same thing she was like everyone got so worried about it and she was like but the literally the worst thing that could happen is

no one will laugh whatever you'll go back again like you'll never it's not and also talking about like um you're scared of the unknown, I genuinely think the reason why I made this work, like, doing this industry, is because I was just like, oh, I'm doing this now. Like, I literally, for myself, I moved to London. I didn't have a job. I was just doing Instagram. And I was like, I need to pay this month's rent.

And I got my first ever branded content, and I just covered my rent. And I was like, right, I need to do it next month. And then that was it. And then I had to keep going. Yeah. Whereas, I think, obviously, that's not's not like the best advice to jump ship but sometimes you do actually have to put yourself in a position where you have no other choice but to make it work sometimes I think you get so scared to leave because you're like oh my god will it work and actually everything I do there's been so many

projects I've probably forgotten about I've half started that nothing happened for them but I've forgotten about them now whereas adulting as a podcast just caught and i carried on and now it's like a massive thing but it's not just that i was like right this is going to be my thing there was those things i almost did like an egg cookbook that i was going to do and i was going to call like the extra cookbook and have like eggs from all around the world like that was like a whole project i was like all ready to do it and then all of a sudden you'll do something else in a completely different direction and that people like charling you're like oh yeah and then that just becomes your thing like i'm sure this with knobs that was so natural for that to turn into like a much bigger do something else in a completely different direction and that catches. But people are like, Charney, you're like, oh. Yeah, and then that just becomes your thing.

Like, I'm sure with knobs that was so natural for that to turn into, like, a much bigger thing. And I think everyone imagines that you have that end thing in sight from the beginning. No way. I had no idea that this podcast would be doing what I'm doing or that I'd end up in this, like, the way that my Instagram's changed. It sounds so menial to people who, I don't know if it does actually, but when I say things like, oh, my Instagram's changed so much, somebody so much somebody's not a blogger I'm like do they think that that's so pathetic but no you know someone's talking about their job role yeah I think sometimes when

you are in the influencer world you become quite apologetic about being called an influencer you become apologetic about you know the things you do and that in itself can be a bit toxic as well so you know to you that's like it means a lot to you and that's enough you know in the same way that someone who's working in an office job and has got a promotion and it's a big change for them but for us we might be like oh I don't get how that's any different but yeah you know for them it's different um but yeah I totally agree and I think I've had many projects where I just will start it for example I filmed like a documentary last year and like we filmed this massive documentary it's gonna be like huge and in the end we never like I can't remember what happened but we never we never got

going we were just a bit like by the end of it we're like oh I'm over it yeah and then that was it and then we did like a small clip but it was never what it should have been that's so funny this is like because I did the same thing that this year I was coming up with this project that I wanted to do and I'd literally made all these pitches I was I'm going to pitch it to all these people I like did this whole thing blah blah and I almost think because like you get I have such bad impotence in doing this industry I'm sure you do too so I feel like I constantly have to be doing something else like yeah what I'm doing is already enough like I don't need to be doing more you can just fine hone it and like make it better and like. I was like, right, now I'm going to start this massive thing.

And I was so adamant. And then I just did the same thing. I was like, actually, like, I don't need to be doing that. I don't know what it is. And it's weird because influencing is a thing. Like, it's such a dirty word. I actually don't think that we are natural influence in terms of, like, what people think.

I actually wouldn't really say that we are. You're definitely, like, a content creator if I was going to call you anything do you know what I mean it's not the same thing but being having influence is amazing

like being able to influence people is actually fucking cool it's so weird that it's got a negative are you able to what do you think of it

do you call yourself an influencer I kind of just I mean like for example at the start of the podcast when you like

introduce yourself I am like oh I'm kind of an Instagram person I feel cringe when I say it and part of me is like I shouldn't but the other part of me is like no you're still cringe like stop it um so yeah I but naturally as a person I stem towards being like a bit more self-depreciating and and more like oh I think you've got a high cringe threshold. Like you find things really cringe. I have a high cringe.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the perfect way to describe it. And that's good and bad at the same time. But I mean, I don't mind. If someone says like, if someone says, oh, you're an influencer, I'm like, cool, fine. I'm not like anti it. Yeah.

And I don't like the kind of, I don't't I don't know how I feel about it to be honest I don't know I'm I'm I see both sides but I wouldn't be like hey guys I am an influencer no but what's so interesting about your career is if you worked for a brand say which you do I suppose at 69 but say you'd created knobs and you didn't own it and like someone else owned it and you'd manage that whole social media crowd they'd be like oh my god have you met lucy she like makes the whole account for knobs and it's so sick if you've seen what she does all over infographic like people would lord it so much they'd be like wow that's amazing yeah for some reason when it's women doing it it's your own brand yeah there's a whole different attitude towards it i was out with my new manager the

other day and someone asked her what i did and she went she's a presenter and i know she was like what she was like in any other walk of life if you were doing anything you would be a presenter you present your podcast you do interviews the whole time you do live thing that's presenting so true and I was like oh my god I'm just gonna start saying that and I was like but I'm not yet she's like say it you are and I was like oh my god that is amazing weirdly people I think I think part of it is that people really want to have a following like I almost don't want it because I feel like it's about like it's a weird when you have it in the way that we grew which was years ago and it was like it really was kind of by accident it wasn't like how people want to be able to do that it was so much easier yeah you have like a weird relationship with it

whereas now people are like oh my god you have following it must be amazing and you're kind of like oh no don't don't I'm not like I didn't ask for this like I didn't mean to do it um and all those people want to put you down because it is actually quite a hard so people say stuff to me like and I'm not all the time but but they'll be like, oh, but obviously your podcast gets good listens. You've got a really big Instagram following. And I'll be like, oh yeah, that's true. And then Matt will be like, yeah, but you grew your Instagram following.

So that's just as hard. But people want to use it as an excuse or a reason for your success when it is successful in of itself to have a following. Yes. And also people think that just because you have an audience like that people are going to latch on to or want to be involved in everything you do yeah like sometimes you'll do things like I remember a common project I did oh even like swipe ups and click throughs like you might have a brand deal where you're like oh my god this is gonna fucking smash people are gonna love this and you get the results and

you're like actually people don't really give a shit about that or you'll you know i'm trying to think of an example for example with my t-shirt so i did live my best life t-shirts a couple years ago and they did really well and then we did the no bs t-shirts like the knobs ones and like it was like a fraction of how well the other ones did and in my head i'm like what you know they're part of the community it's not but it's because it's so much more niche that's for people that are so invested in the community it's not but it's because it's so much more niche that's for people that are so invested yeah it's not as like widely applicable as like living my best life was at that time this is the statements this podcast i think when i first started it this again was really broad and then as i kind of figured out what i really kind of want it to be it's become quite niche so people who love it love it but it's it's not your it's not everyone's not

going to be listening to it because it won't be applicable. And I think it's so true about, like, brands and stuff. It's funny what people like. I don't know. I think also that's where the value is, though, because people will, like, you do your live events, I do my live events. And the fact that people will pay to come and see you, like, that's where the value's in. Yeah. That they will come and attend an event. And it's a very interesting,

I just think there's a really, especially towards women, there's a very weird attitude towards like, if this was any other career and you had a business and then you'd built up a hundred and something subscribers to a email list

or anything that isn't Instagram, I think, because women always have done better than men on Instagram, especially in the fitness world. And then men didn't really kind of. consume the content differently as women yeah as to men but do you not think that we like at the beginning when fitness influencers first came along there was like no big male ones like women surpassed them totally they like really monopolized the

market and that must be one of the first not one of the first times but i think instagram has allowed for more women to be in creative industries and be heading them up. Because there's no one to answer to. There's no glass ceiling you've got to break. You create your audience and they follow you. What you do with that is... I don't think I could have had the same success if I'd had to have gone down a different route where I'd had to have knocked on doors. No, but you're right. I often think about that, the way that there are many like incredible business women who have like completely smashed like instagram and built their own brands and it's not just their account they've

gone on to to build multi you know million pound companies and have loads of staff and that's just what they do now and it it has been a really amazing path where there haven't been that many you know there's not like when you're doing say fitness or beauty or any kind of the more female dominant industries, there aren't that many guys at the top being like, hang on a second, like, you know, you can't have more followers than us. Like we just, they just grow and thrive and, you know. And it was, it was beginning, as you just said, it was easier to grow and it was more of a meritocracy. Like, I feel like now it is shifting and do you feel like, I certainly feel like it's a good thing in a weird way like I feel like now it is shifting and do you feel like I certainly feel like it's a good thing in a weird way I feel like I'm being pushed into a new remit where I can't

I've got to think right now what's my next move and it's going to be have to be drastically different from how I've traveled before because Instagram as a platform is really really changing like yeah you can't grow the algorithm doesn't change people do you feel like you're gonna move like you maybe want to start a podcast but what is there anything else that you're like looking forward to creating or are you sitting in it in the minute and trying to figure out what's next I I've kind of had a period where I've done a lot of different things you know I did the knobs cookbook I did I've got the guides on the app and I'm figuring out what makes me happy whilst also making everyone else happy and the knobs guides have been such like a success and I've loved doing it it's been such a

great part of my job and I thoroughly love it so for me it makes sense to grow and expand that side of things so hopefully there'll be my own app that I mean that's pretty much what I'm gonna do um so for me it I I can't be like I'm gonna do another Nob's cookbook I'm gonna do more aprons I'm gonna do more for me it's like niching down into what is it that they really really really want beyond just like fun fluffy stuff that they can buy and enjoy for me it's like where can I have the biggest impact and what is going to be you know I think I needed to be more niche which I've done this year for sure um but I also for example with the podcast I don't want it to be a podcast about training diet culture and fitness for my community I just want it I just want to be me I just want to talk about things I talk about with my friends I want to talk about sex I want to talk about dating I want to talk about loads of different things and I want

to talk about real life shit that kind of goes on and I think I'm excited for that because it's gonna allow me to just talk beyond the kind of boundaries that Instagram has set and I never feel restrained anymore but I think you know as people are so multi-dimensional anyway sometimes you know we're laughing about that meme with like the little box yeah there you do even now you still do feel like no I have to talk about you know dieting I've talked about nutrition and food and exercise and that's what they're the topics but no you're so right and you're definitely more boxed in as women like the minute I kind of was like I used to like it was pretty predominantly just actually initially it was almost just food then it was just fitness and food and then there was a time when everyone

kind of hated food photos so we all just started to take pictures of ourselves I don't think you ever did that I think you always checked it but there was a really weird period where mirror selfies was a thing it was just every picture was a mirror selfie in a different outfit and then I tried to like post something about at the time I was studying English at uni and I was like I actually like fitness is such a small part like I go to the gym for one hour of the day the rest of my day is not talking about the stuff and people even now because I think I do too many things people don't like it like they can't it's like another thing to throw in and like you have to be really careful like I can talk about books now

because I've been doing it for so long that people have got used to it but if I suddenly try and be like I don't know if I did a food post now for instance I think people would lose their shit because it's it's some weird idea around like there's so much dimensional it's because for example if you look at like successful companies have brands like they're so niche and the biggest brands are so niche that it works and their messaging is clear and they have brand guidelines and key messaging and I think to a degree like our Instagram platforms are kind of like mini yeah and it's weird when it's you because your platform is is you like yeah about things you want to talk about but to a lot of people it is just like the brand and I think you've got to find a healthy balance

of the two when it's your income you feel tired to be like no I need to make it more brandy and it needs to be professional I need to make sure I talk about this topic this week and you know all give up give a bit of everything that I'm trying to convey and talk about my products but also just like be me and my stories and like show funny videos of me getting drunk with my friends and it is a really weird balance between the two I don't know what's the best thing to do no it's so interesting I think we definitely are I think people don't really understand what goes into it and never really well that I have a PA now but only for one day a week I mean literally the first day she was like oh my god you do so much stuff she was I really didn't think there'd be like

this many things to do yeah because it's you are just constantly creating and the other thing is which I'm sure you'll agree like then you could always do more oh yeah so like there's a never-ending you can kind of like there's a minimum you can get away with doing which actually could be like not a lot like I'm sure there are some influencers who actually don't really do that much yeah but if you want to you can make so much for yourself and I do this all the time and I think you probably do as well you know when you like come up with a new format and it's really good for post and then you're like oh no now I've got to do that every time yeah and then you're like great but then you get good at it and then it becomes really easy whatever but I constantly

do this and it's like it's absolutely never-ending I but I don't think I could ever have a boss could you ever go in now into like working until nine to five? No. No, I couldn't. And, you know, we were kind of talking before, if everything, for whatever reason, I had to go back and do a kind of more traditional job, I'd suck it up and do it, obviously. But I would really struggle.

I'd really struggle to have someone giving me my structure and telling me how to run my day. But at the same time when you are working for yourself there's no one that's saying like do this and when you do it there's no one saying like well done yeah tick like you've done it well so the reason why you keep wanting to do more is because you almost feel inadequate in many ways yeah um but you know there's pros and cons to both there's so many benefits of being freelance there's so many there's pros and cons to both. There's so many benefits of being freelance. There's so many... There's pros and cons to both sides, but I would struggle having, like, a manager or, you know... Yeah.

You get out of the habit of listening to other people. Do you feel like you've learnt so much? Like, sometimes, will you go to an event or you'll be talking to a brand and they'll ask you a question and a friend will ask you, and you will just reel off this information. You're thinking, where in the fuck did I learn that? But just over time, you've become, like, an like an actual expert in marketing like you could consult with brands

I've I'm sure do you feel that way that like over time you gain expertise naturally it's kind of making me think like is university I've been thinking about this a lot like how is how helpful is education when actually if you just do something you learn it you do it you do it often enough you get good at it yeah yeah I mean I was thinking about universe I was literally having this conversation the other day and I think now in this day and age I think social media and the internet has it's changed the value of going to uni not all like with creative jobs in many ways you're almost better off just like doing it and trying to learn the skill, and then that's it. Go off and become great at it and practice it, rather than studying to do film or, you know, studying to do media or whatever. It's, like, I think it is a very

different landscape to when we were going to uni. Yeah. I imagine it's very different now. When I went to uni, though, to be fair, fair it was literally like just hadn't it was just three years apart here like that's kind of and I'm really glad I did it I met some of my best friends that will be like my bridesmaids and like my godmothers and so that that I think but it wasn't I didn't learn I don't think I learned a great deal and I think as well with Instagram the interesting thing is if we're talking about it as a job platform which it is I think we like because we didn't start it as a means to make money you

really are really emotionally invested but lots of people now go into it and they do want to make money from it but you can make a full salary of 10,000 followers if you're smart yeah like I think people think oh my god I need to have a million followers no actually imagine if you've got 10,000 followers if you've got every single one of those 10,000 followers engaged, you can make a big salary from that. And I think that people don't see the power in, especially young people nowadays, think that's so obsessed with the following the numbers.

I'm sure you feel the same way. But as your relationship with kind of like what you think, the power of your Instagram, has it changed from what it used to be before? Yeah, I think when you're growing, it's like the dopamine response of like doing a post and getting 10,000 followers in two days like oh my god you know there was a period where I was growing really quick a couple of years ago and it's like oh my god this is great and then when it stops and it can't and things change like it does you are a bit like oh and

then you still catch yourself kind of chasing not posting I mean to a degree we all post to get engagement why else would you fucking post you wouldn't do it if it got no likes or whatever but like you almost can get in a bit of a cycle with it and I think now my relationship but that's changed so much that I've got my community already yeah I've got I've got my group I've got the the people in there what can I do to create and build something that's like really valuable for them? That's the way I view it now. Um, rather than trying to chase the next, you know, milestone of, you know, a hundred, an extra hundred K or whatever. For me, it's more like, how can I, with what I've already got, what can I do? How can I, you know, recruit more knobs? How can I get

more people in the Facebook group how I mean actually to a degree I'm saying this I don't really want I don't want a massive Facebook group I mean we hit 10k the other day wow but I didn't even feel like celebrating it because I remember I always said when we started I don't want more than 10k people in the group because then it becomes unmanageable like a feral playground of like strange accounts and you know it it feels less special so I think everything I've always done has always I've wanted it to feel nice and like a community and you know the brunch this this Saturday is 25 people it's not you know 100 it's not a massive workout event pool with 200 people coming along it's

small and it's intimate and that's what I've always wanted it to be um so yeah that that's the way I've always viewed it it's so interesting as next I think you do reach a threshold as you say when you're growing I was so addicted when I first had my Instagram account and as you say sometimes you'd post a picture and you'd wake up in the morning and this was back when I can't remember how full it was I remember the first time I got a thousand likes and I can actually remember my heart being like and I'm so I'm so like emotionally detached my dope minicat obviously because it's my work I'm like if something gets good not good engagement I'm like oh that's frustrating I wonder what that's down to or like I'll think about it logistically but there's no

like emotional connection there yeah whereas before I would literally be like so addicted I would like to post a picture from like refreshing refreshing refreshing yeah yeah it was actually quite fucked up yeah like when i remember it and i what i found interestingly is all my friends who are influencers now have this really like um quite pragmatic relationship with social media like because you have to be on it the whole time you're not really that interested in what's going on you know you're going to get a certain amount of likes it's never going to be like embarrassing it's not like and also the people posting are really happy for you what i've noticed is more with like people that aren't instagrammers they get way more anxiety about posting because it's just their friends liking it and like if no one likes it that's really embarrassing because it's just your peers

watching you and actually everyone kind of thinks i don't know if you get this but people like to me oh you have you like people that aren't instagrammers like is your instagram growing more like you and i'm like no but that's not going to happen I've reached my threshold I don't think I'll ever get more followers unless I became famous outside of Instagram which I don't know

if that would happen but that's how I would grow I wouldn't grow through Instagram anymore and there seems to be so much onus on that growth and I wonder if

because people who aren't in it actually have a more unhealthy relationship with it like do you feel like more distance than your friends who aren't Instagrammers yeah I know what you mean because a couple of friends with it like do you feel like more distance than your friends who aren't instagrammers yeah I I know what you mean because I a couple of friends have

been like do you feel weird when you you know post on your story or you do a post do you feel like anxiety and I think once you do it so often you just kind of get used to it and become accustomed to it but yeah I imagine if I if I had an account where it was just my friends and it wasn't my job like I would I would definitely be that way for sure because you know it's people you actually know I feel so disconnected to a degree I mean there are people who comment and message me who I you know the people that comment and message me will usually be the same kinds of people and I know who they are and I recognize their names and they're kind of like my internet friends the knobs but everyone else is just like I don't even think

about it I don't I don't think about it I don't you know think about how many eyes are on it how many people are looking at it and I think that's quite nice yeah it's like ignorance yeah of it um but you know if you have a small account and say you have 200 followers I'm sure you'd be checking your story views and being like this person's seen it I actually remember like when I first started my account I had people from uni that would look and they were like people who I would put in it's like pedestal being super cool oh yeah and I'd be like oh my god no Emma Emma's up to my store like she's gonna see now I've done this post and it's really cringe and I'm really embarrassed but I still got that even now sometimes it's really funny like I'll if I'm writing for my audience and I think about my following

and again you get those same people that always come on I get really excited but then sometimes I'll just think of like one of my friends like my friends from school

and oh my god if they read that I'd die but a stranger reading it and people who because weirdly I this is kind of

I guess actually what I was saying Instagram made me more of my authentic self because it's easy to show yourself to people who don't know you so I was doing that on a public platform

and then this when I was younger when I first started my account and then acting out as this really attentive, different kind of girl that I thought I was. And Instagram made me have to show myself to people. Yeah. Because I bet you felt this too but when I first started it and people were following it, I assumed that no one who knew me would look at it. Yeah. Yeah. But now like I'm sure you'll get this, like, everyone I know are the first people to watch my stories. Yeah, yeah. And, like, you can see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But did you find that, like, it's almost weirdly easier? I feel like my sense of self has grown out of the fact that I try to be authentic. Because it's such a capital on social media as well, to be true and real. But I think that saved me in a funny way. Yeah. So I remember, I think it was, like,

Mental Health Awareness Day a couple of years ago when I came in, it was. Yeah. So I remember, I think it was like Mental Health Awareness Day a couple of years ago when I came in, it was when I was full time, I came into the gym and I sat in the back room and one of the guys, bless him,

such a sweetheart, but I'd done a post the night before about my depression and, you know, that I felt pretty shitty, super honest and raw. And he came in and there was like

two other people in the room and he was like, oh, Lucy, I read your post last night. I just want to let you know I'm here. I'm here for you. Are you okay? And I was sitting there and there was like two other people in the room and he was like oh Lucy I read your post last night I just want to let you know I'm here I'm here for you okay and I was sitting there and I was like this is so uncomfortable for me the fact that I know you've looked at it and he was he's only doing it because he wasn't don't don't say in front of other people because that in itself is just a bit socially straight yeah I was I was just like, I felt so embarrassed, but I was thinking about it,

I was like, I've just posted it to the internet, of course he's going to look at it, you know, and he cares, so he's spoken to me about it, but I just felt like the ground, I wanted the ground to swallow me up,

because I felt so embarrassed that I posted it. Because it feels so, because when you, I felt violated. Yeah, I know, because it feels so exposing, whereas when you write it online, it never feels,

like, if I actually think about it, you've got almost, like, three times my following. But if I actually imagine, like, 100,000 people, that's so many people that have seen, like, my bum when I posted it. It's good. But it's that really weird safety net of feeling like,

oh, it is such a... You feel like someone's read your diary. Yes. Or, like, even my close friends. I remember when my old housemate I was living with my uni friends and like they would sometimes be like oh I saw it in your story and stuff and it's still weird you're like oh it's just odd and I found even with dating oh my god like I would I would hide my social media from them because I don't want them to look at my

stories yeah oh that's they're like listen to me talking I find that so odd but I remember feeling so violated I went on this date with this guy and he's like oh yeah like I found you saw your Instagram but like oh I saw this and I saw you doing this and he'd text me and he'd reference things that I put on my story that day oh no that's too weird and it's and even though of course you know if you follow me and you see what I do of course you would it's not an a weird thing a stalkerish thing to do it's the way we live our lives now but I found it really unattractive I would find that really weird yeah yeah but you know we all stalk we all do it it's just when someone says it to you directly you're like yeah it's really disconcerting I have to agree it's funny I hadn't really thought about dating so I started to go out on that but I went to school

with it like he knew me anyway so there wasn't really anything to like learn yeah but I can't imagine what that must be like because that is really weird well I was so I was talking to my friend she has a lot of like body confidence stuff and we both became single last year at a very similar time and we were laughing because you know I talk a lot about like my past and turbulent relationships with food and she posted a lot she doesn't as much now but she posted a lot of like body pictures um of like body and rolls and stretch marks and she was very much in that kind of content sphere and she's like it's so funny because when you're dating you're single again something it it actually makes you second guess what you're posting yeah like this person who

you're about to go to first like a sexy first date like cool boss thank you but they've been looking at your instagram and seeing how like emotional like and it's bad because we shouldn't feel like we should have to put this veil on but it is a weird dynamic when you basically you've done this overshare of like like your feelings yeah reddit and they're coming to meet you for the first time it's very odd also i realized like when i think i didn't realize but towards the end of uni i've never had to i definitely was 20 like really i just don't think i was very happy I didn't realise but towards the end of uni I've never had depression but I definitely once went through like really I just don't think I was very happy and didn't realise and that's why

I was like addicted to Instagram because I was like it was like successful for me and I moved to London and then I started to go out on the mat and I was really happy I just couldn't be fucked I just couldn't be bothered to post

and I was like no one needs to see my work I just lost all interest because I realised I think and I think a lot of people can get this but if you've got nothing else going on

the only dangerous thing about social media is it can become like a crux because that like dopamine and you feel like you're not alone like even now I'm sometimes not as good at I use it in a very different way so I want to ask you a question now which kind of harks back to your very first thing but do you feel like you're living your best life yeah I do I I feel I was thinking this yesterday I feel really just empowered I feel really empowered I feel really in control and I think it does boil down to job feels like I'm

doing what I'm supposed to be doing starting new projects obviously because that's what we do um and just yeah and just you know feeling really confident in myself and being myself and you know when when you're dating or seeing someone or whether you're single, I think when you know that you're just being your full self, which I think I I've learned to now be, um, it just feels good. And, you know, it doesn't feel great every day. I definitely have days where, you know, if I've woken up late, I will feel like shit. Um, but in essence it's good and I think definitely scrolling scrolling scrolling back every day um but like thinking back to a year ago like I was definitely like a fraction of the person I am and you might not even know it from Instagram yeah but I remember thinking like a year

ago I couldn't remember the last time you know when you belly laugh yeah I felt so low and drained I couldn't remember I remember waking up thinking I can't remember the last time I actually like belly laughed and now it's like every day I'll be laughing my head off about something stupid and yeah it's just it's it's becoming aware of not to blame it on people or people in your life or whatever but like it's such a good practice to understand how you feel when you've been around certain people and if it doesn't make you feel good like that's your sign that you need to not be in that space and I think you're the empowering feeling as well as knowing that like I know that all the things that I can control if I control those well then that's all I can do so like I love that saying and I say it all the time and it's like you can't control what happens so you can only control how you react and I used to feel

like worried about situations or like think about if I was doing something wrong then I'm like wait a minute I know what I can do I know I can try and get up out as much as I can like do all those things I think we spoke about right at the beginning and I as long as I'm doing those things then even if I don't feel good I'm like I've stuck to my side of the bargain and then like whatever happens to me that's not my fault yeah and that that makes me feel so powerful yeah because I'm like that's all I've got to do that's like literally just got to wake up go to I think sometimes when we allow ourselves to feel like we've got to control everything in the world and everything that goes on around us that's when you can feel like what the fuck is going on yeah that's so true

especially like times right now yeah what's well I genuinely think I'm gonna leave here and then never leave my flat again self-isolation is gonna go into contact as of today oh my god I know I I know yeah you're right though like you can worry about all sorts but you know at the end of the day you've only got the power to to ownership of your own actions and that's it so yeah you know and you do have more power than you never doubt yourself because i think that like i think we've both kind of been around about ways said that you know all of these things happen because they just kept happening yeah but it wasn't because we were like in the sims when you'd be like right i know i'm going to design this hat i have no idea where things are going to go yeah but we just keep i just keep moving forwards and Matt said this to me so I said to him oh I kind of like don't like done anything

blah blah and he was like think about two years ago on the day when you're like oh my god I'd love to have a podcast yeah and imagine how you would have felt if you were like oh my god I've done my podcast had like over two million downloads and there's like have many episodes because how would you feel then but we never think like that we always just think like of not doing anything yeah but we always we do it in every in everything yeah it's why you know I laugh at these kind of gratitude journals and shit but like it actually works yeah people love it doing gratitude I struggle to get into the habit of doing that because I'd still like it doesn't matter but I I know feeling grateful

for for different things and reflection is actually really important and feeling good. It is. I've started to do, like, I used to be really, like, cringe, but also a bit, like, my mum's really stoic. So she's really resistant to anything that's a bit too, like, woo-woo. Yeah. But I started to talk to her. When I became more positive, I started to talk to her about, like, positive mental health and just feeling really happy. And she, like, it's completely changed her.

I'm like, if in the morning you've been a bit grumpy and it's, like, sunny, I'm like, just think, oh, my God, look how nice it is that it's sunny outside. And now she'll say stuff to me like this all the time. And she's like, oh, it's just, isn't it just so nice to just say that? And I was like, and it's so funny. It's just the smallest changes. Like, instead of noticing, like, the negative thing, just think about, like, one. It'll just literally make your day.

I could talk for hours about this but i love like watching my parents get older and like you being able to teach them yeah i think that's so nice i agree it's really funny i was also talking to my friend about how everyone's like oh my god i'm so broody i'm not ready to have a baby but i would love to have a teenage daughter because i love i love my relationship with my mom yeah and that we like talk and that we're like best friends i can't be asked to have a baby but i love the idea of having like a grown- we like talk and that we're like best friends I can't be arsed to have a baby but I love the idea of having like

a grown up child that becomes your like best friend drink wine yeah that you like drink wine which is so backwards because I'm like

just that age now yeah yeah but I do think like having a nice relationship with parents is is like just one of the most amazing things

yeah and you have that with your dad as well which is really cute oh my god yeah he fucking loves he loves the attention father mountain

does he act or is he like when he's doing is he acting is he always like that is he putting on it's like because he sometimes i see he'll like wait and then you'll record yeah no he's in like he's in character he does that not on camera like he does he does that he my dad is almost like he's half in character half the time and then he's also just like not it's not like he's a different person but like he does play up or he'll if I'm sitting on the sofa watching tv he'll snuggle up and be like hello loose like you know what you're watching here they'll just be stupid like be really stupid and silly that's so funny he's such a weirdo he's really dry because you wouldn't tell like he's not like super dry yeah you can't tell that he's acting

that's what I think my dad was like a football was, like, a football lad. Like, my dad's really... Okay, now I'm banging on my dad, but he was, like, a football lad and, like, went out for, like, had a season ticket and, like, you know, loved beers, blah, blah, blah. And then when he was, like, 55, he took early retirement and he has, like, changed as a person

since not being at this really super high, stressful, high-powered job. And he's, like, so much more in touch with his, like, sensitive side. He's so, like... When I say goodbye to him after visiting him he like he gets really emotional and like drops me off he's such a sweetie um but it's really nice watching like my dad go from this kind of more cold not cold it's not like it's ever been cold but like work orientated like laddy vibe to now being super sensitive older man so cute as well like the

freedom of like when we talk about feminism like that's what men in a weird way he may have never felt like he could be who he really was because he was living up to this idea of like what it would be to be a man yeah like he had to you know he had to he hadn't had anxiety issues and he had to leave work and you know that was a huge thing for him because you know men of men of a certain age like they don't they're not empowered to feel emotions like that but yeah he he loves he loves the attention now though that's so cute my story views like triple when i'm back home people just love it because they love it that's so funny it's so good it's like i'm always trying to get her to like start in i always want to see another podcast episode she's like no mum always trying to get her to start in. I always want her to do another podcast episode. She's like, no, I think that was enough.

And I'm like, mum, it's really good for work. I listened to that one. It's had the most listens out of any episode. I'm like, mum, it's really good for my income. And she's like, no, I don't want to. And I'm like, oh, okay, thanks. She was like, one time, honestly, it was way too much. She's never listened to the podcast.

She's like, I don't think I can get it on my phone. I love that so much. I love parents that are just unfothered she just doesn't really know what I do but she also like loves it yeah like she's obsessed with it like she loves it she'll probably like tell her friends like yeah but she did but she like doesn't she's like oh she works so hard but she has no idea what I'm doing it's so funny and also when she comes around like she comes to save me in London she's like she'll go for brunch I'm like I'm working she's like no you're not and I'm like no I know I'm at home but I'm this is my job but we can't I can't I just have to like do the work on a Sunday she comes up on like a Tuesday I'm like right that's it we're off the day so no oh I love that she's

so great though it's really sad as well because she's quarantining at home in Somerset she's like should I just come off I'm like no you stay there you don't that's like the perfect place to quarantine I know yeah yeah hopefully she'll never get ill oh god oh right well I hope we don't die anyway do you have any um takeaways for people who I guess feel like they're not because I guess what we're talking about is like being in control of your life and feeling like you couldn't create the life that you want I feel like we all on a day-to-day basis we have these like self-limiting thoughts and what I mean by that is for years I said I wasn't a gym person now I've got this business which is around going to the gym being a gym person and with the self-employed thing for ages I was resistant to

being self-employed because I'm not I don't want to rely on myself I'm not a person that's self-employed and runs my business and now I do and I think if you have these thoughts in your head even like we're talking about the podcast thing I'm like shitting myself and in my head I'm like it's not me but I'm telling myself it is me and I'm saying I'm doing it and I'm going to do it because of that like I just mentioned the app thing I've not said that anywhere else but I've just told you I'm doing an app so I will have one yeah and obviously there's so much that goes into, you know, so much privilege that goes into being able to have these opportunities and do these things.

But it starts with you telling yourself, I'm going to do it. And you said the same thing with the podcast. You were like, or being a presenter. I'm a presenter. And that for me has been so important in deciding who I am. When I go on dates and I'm dating, before my date, it sounds weird, but I go in and I just think like,

I'm super confident and I'm super interesting. And especially the beginning bit, when you're single, you're like, oh, I have nothing to say. What do I say? You just go and be like, I have loads of things to say. I'm a super interesting person.

And then you go in and you've got this great mindset. So in all aspects, it's so important. And also, I know, I think you told me to read this but in the slumplas book I know she spoke about it so I haven't read it but she said like if you go on a date you've got to get you've got to think like what are you doing to impress me whereas normally you go on a date and you think the whole time I hope they're interested in me I hope that's what you should be doing like interviewing them you should be like why are they good enough because half the time like we would just want anyone to like us you'd get with something even if they were shit yeah um but also I wanted to say something then about the oh yeah you were saying how like oh it's so much

privilege it is privilege but also people don't realize the same for both of us but when you started your tumblr that would have been like maybe almost 10 years ago whenever that was that weird little thing that you started at that time which would have meant kind of nothing you didn't really realize that was the seed that you planted you to have an app so someone will come along and see you with an app and a book and a podcast and they'll be like oh my god well she's so successful and it's like yeah but you're only that's taken 10 years I think people forget like you've got to start somewhere nothing is born out of same relationships and friendships yeah people like you know when I was a teenager oh my god I dated the worst guys and I'd get

cheated on all the time and people like how do you also how are you so confident like dating or being single or whatever and it's like because I've gone through it and like you teach yourself along the way yeah you know I was I used to be so insecure and I'd never trust my boyfriends and I'd go through their photos and I'd do all the like oh yeah I've done weird like really bad shit but it's because you're traumatized like it's like yeah I know I had so many toxic relationships and then you like carry on to the next this is the most normal relationship I've ever had because I remember the when I first followed you it's because you did that massive post with the makeup yeah that was that was when I first found your profile I remember that but also that's so interesting because I would never do that now but I remember at the time my sister said to me she was like

the best thing you did just fucking post on it I loved it I loved it and I remember it a whole long time and then I had to no one does that really though no I would never do that no but I mean like at the time I I loved reading it because I was like oh my god I fucking relate to this yeah I love that she just put it on Instagram that is so great because I was so angry and I was like I don't want to I was like I felt so humiliated I was like what's the best way to like humiliate someone and it was also all about like girl power we can do it but then I ended up freaking getting with him for months afterwards I like couldn't leave like couldn't escape yeah fucking not his man that is so funny like now fat and I broke up I think I just slowly stopped never post someone then just wait for someone to ask me and then I'd say yeah that's what you gotta do yeah so with my ex Dan I lived we

we were secret for three years and then I announced it on Instagram three weeks before we broke up and but obviously that was I did that because I think in my head

I was so conscious like oh things aren't good yeah so maybe it was like a classic Instagram thing maybe you didn't get engaged like that's what the other alternative

would have been it's like do you know what I mean or like decide to get pregnant or something and you just put it on Instagram

which is weird I just archived the post I was like yeah you do it's it's it's rad it's mad yeah oh amazing well thank you so much for talking to me and having me to your flat thank you for having me it's been really fab chat and I hope you guys enjoyed listening and I will see you next week bye Bye.