Adulting - #57 When Do We Start Presenting Gender? with Juno Dawson

Episode Date: March 29, 2020

Hey Podulters, in this episode I speak to author, journalist and fellow podcaster Juno Dawson. We discuss gender, transphobia and when we start presenting gender. I really hope you enjoy this episode, if you do please do rate, review and subscribe. Oenone xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi, Podlters. I hope you're well. Welcome back to another episode of Adulting. And in today's episode, I speak to journalist, author, activist, and fellow podcaster Juno Dawson. She has written loads of books, as you'll hear in this upcoming conversation, mostly young adult fiction, but as she saliently points out, you can read that at any age. And also, I've actually just started listening to her podcast, which I think is the Sex and the City podcast. I'll double check it, but it's so funny. If you're a Sex and the City fan, I definitely recommend recommend listening they kind of pick apart each episode from beginning to end and talk about the

ways that it might be problematic or how that would exist in 2019 which is when they're recording it so definitely check that out but in this episode I speak to Juno about what it means to be trans why gender impacts all of us not just those of us who aren't cis or cisgendered. And also the way in which we need to kind of adapt to accept that, you know, just gender is a lot more fluid than we perhaps have been conditioned to think. I love speaking to Juno and I hope you like listening to the episode. As always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye! Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. Today I am joined by Juno Dawson. Hello.

How are you? I'm not so bad, thank you. I look probably a bit like I've been through something I've just had a load of electrolysis on my face do I look like a burns victim? No you look really glowy. Oh okay I'll take I'll take glowy yeah that was it was a trauma but we're here. So what does electrolysis actually do? I was going to ask that in the email but I wasn't sure if I was supposed to know. So no it, I mean, it's fine. It's basically over the years, down the years, what you do when you start, when I sort of started my transition in like 2013, and so the first thing you do is start having sort of laser treatment

to remove, well, sort of any hair. And all this is available to cis women as well. A lot of women choose to have laser hair removal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to get around shaving and waxing and shit um but what they don't tell you is that laser can only remove hair that has pigment uh i think i did because actually lots so it's just laser hair removal it's just it's electronics it's like the next level basically okay i see wait quickly before we get onto this for people who don't know can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Yeah. My day job is I'm an author and screenwriter increasingly. And that's kind of it. I mean, the word activist is a funny one. It's like nobody goes to activist school. But I am one of very few sort of trans women sort of operating in the British media. So by default, I've been labelled as an activist, just because at the moment, you know, being seen to be a trans person in this country is making a statement, apparently.

No, it's true. And you definitely are an author first and foremost. We were just saying about how you've written so many books. I think one of the first times I heard about you, maybe might have been actually on the highland, I think about it with Is It Clean? Yes. Which is all of your fiction young adult? Yeah, although I sort of, I think young adult in this country, less so in America, but in this country, people seem to read young adult, you know,

as being like teen fiction, whereas I think it's just young adult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think you're a young adult, I think I'm still a young adult. So it's kind of, yeah, I think it's for anyone and I think with clean in particular and that was that's my best seller um I was sort of bored of behaving and so I wanted to do something that did um rock the boat a little bit and it kind of worked out because it did it did really well for me

you're you're so right about that young adult thing so I was talking about this the other day with a friend about how young adult fiction, which I do for some reason as well, imagine that category of like 16 to 19, it's actually sometimes much more enjoyable than adult. Because there's a weird cutoff where when it becomes adult fiction, it suddenly becomes slightly more morose than like younger fiction. And I was thinking that the other day, I kind of want to start reading younger books again. I think it's about accessibility as well.

And I think, you know, the difference between an adult book in this country and a young adult book is the marketing department. Right. Which is, they basically, an adult book will have a lot more money spent on it. And that does feel to be true. And, you know, so many of us now,

authors like Holly Bourne and Kieran Millwood Hargrave are doing both and you know if you were to read Holly Bourne's adult book or Holly Bourne's young adult book the only difference is that they have a different imprint stuck to the back that you know there was there's nothing to separate her work just if you enjoy Holly Bourne read read Holly Bond yeah that's so interesting right well I'll remember that um but what I have got you here today to talk about is when do we start start actually I want to ask you kind of distance between expressing and presenting gender because and I said to you this this to you before I wish that I was just having you on to talk about you being an author but unfortunately in the current climate people we do have to kind of talk about trans rights and trans issues.

And it's annoying you can't just be a female author and you have to be a spokesperson for trans issues. Yeah. Although I always say, I mean, I can't be a spokesperson for anyone else. I think, you know, this is something you'll have spoken about a lot, which is notions of intersectionality. You know, I sit before you as a hugely successful white woman um you know I've got my own property um I'm getting married this year I'm able-bodied I'm straight so I there is no way that I'm going to sit here and claim to be sort of the voice of the trans community because there just isn't a trans community yeah no amazing yeah I really appreciate you pointed

that out um and it you're right again was saying about who's in the media as well though because it's kind of like the people that I know of are you and Monroe yeah and there isn't that many people talking about it on and in the mainstream media which is kind of the cusp of why I wanted you here was we got a lot of pushback when you tried to talk about trans rights I even saw the other day that you were saying like I can't be on Twitter at the minute it's just killing me stressful yeah and so what i want to do is open up this conversation in a much more gentle and like we're accepting that people are trans let's talk about it in a in a calm environment where it's like what happens

when do we start presenting our gender what do we do maybe if we have children who we think are transitioning or if we ourselves don't know that's kind of what I want to get to in a really nice space if that makes sense yeah I mean I wrote again plug a book um help trans people buy their work um I wrote a book called the gender games yeah because I was really interested in gender I mean that book it was I sort of had to compromise with the publishers lovely lovely two, because they wanted a memoir. They just wanted a straight up kind of, can you just tell your life story? Whereas I was like, well, I will, but I'm really, really interested in how gender affects all of us. And I think that trans people are just one more group in society that gender norms and gender stereotypes and gender expectations have fucked.

And so that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to do like a book of kind of basically essays about the different ways that gender expression messes with our lives. And I think that's true of both of us. Yeah, that is so true. And I think I was just seeing a tweet the other day about how I love and hate Twitter. But it's so interesting that we never question cis children when they say like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm definitely a girl. No one's like, well, how do you know that? And it's that kind of really interesting dichotomy of why we feel so uncomfortable around it. And I was wondering if you could give me a more, and for other people who maybe can't see it it's clear cut in their minds why we need to stop ascribing gender so specifically to biological sex especially in birth and like we see things like gender reveals which now in this time it feels so

weird and backward yeah i mean it's just it's it's one of those curious of americanisms that we've started to kind of creep over to this side of the Atlantic. I hope it doesn't take hold. You know, the notion of the baby shower is bad enough. I want more presents. Okay. I think it does start, even before I was going to say from birth, but I don't, I think it starts from before birth. And, you know, I like to think that I'm sort of ahead of the curve, but I still, you know, if one of my friends is pregnant, I always ask, do you know what you're having? Even though I know the answer is no, you don't. You might think you know.

The nurse has told you what sex your baby might be because they're never 100%. But, you know, you really don't. You know, my parents were told they had a boy. And, you know, in turn, they told me I was a boy, despite the fact from a really young age I was saying, I think I'm a girl. And I think it's going to take such a monumental culture shift to move away from that.

So I do think it's slightly not about, and this is, it's so tabloidy, isn't it? Kind of like, I think I remember once a couple of years ago, there was a big fuss because Russell Brand, the comedian said that he wanted to raise his children free from gender. And there was this big, obviously, backlash in the press, you know, like crazy clown Russell Brand, you know, says his children don't. And it was like, I don't think that's what anybody's saying. I don't think anybody is suggesting that, you know, we go to the NHS and say to the NHS, right from this day forth, we're not going to tell parents

the sex of their, no one is suggesting that. What I think for me, what I'm hoping to see more of is just better education, which is that understanding of, yep, the doctors and the nurses, they're going to tell you your baby's sex. And for a minuscule percentage of those babies born, some of them might grow up to be this thing that we call trans. And that can take on so many different forms. But more than that as well, and I love the quote, and this is in my next book, you know, if you don't want an LGBTQ child, don't get pregnant. You know, simple as that.

If that thought freaks you out, reproduction might not be for you, you know, because, you know, when you have a baby, when you bring a baby into this world, you do so, you know, understanding the full spectrum of human life, you know, babies who are born otherwise abled, babies who might be born blind or deaf or, you know, trans kids, lesbian kids, gay kids, all the different possibilities you get with a child. You know, that's what I think I want. I just want to see parents bringing kids into the world ready for anything. Yeah. I think it's about stripping away the projection. And you're so right about how it starts in pregnancy, because even when you think about it, it makes so much sense that you get pregnant and suddenly you think, oh's going to be a boy and then your brain does all this like heteronormative ideas of what that child's going to be and you're it's so insidious that even

without realizing like you will infect that child with thinking that they have to be this thing and you're so right like when you have a baby fundamentally you should want that baby to be happy and whatever way that happens is perfect obviously because of social structures and the media and like years of old-fashioned ideals from religion and stuff it's taking a lot of breaking away for people to get used to this but what I I find really weird is is the pushback that we see in the media when when it comes to trans rights and someone's like look this is the gender that I am, like you are a woman. What I don't understand is when people feel like they are upset by this.

And I think it's because of the pushback from people that I don't want to say his name, Mr. Morgan, who cannot get to grips with the idea that someone is happy in themselves. I honestly think it's because perhaps when someone makes such a big step to be able to speak about what gender they want to be because that is a huge step to be able to like talk about that it's almost like you can work out what makes you happy and that almost makes other people uncomfortable because they might not know do you know what I mean yeah I mean I think and this is

why I always think this is terrible plugging books I always wish I'd had more time with gender games because I think we are in the middle of a really interesting time and I think we are seeing a global backlash to progress that minority groups have made in the last 25 years and I think we're seeing this in all kinds of different ways we have an open racist as prime minister. And voters knew that, and they voted for him anyway, which says to me, they're racist as well. I mean, how can you, no secret has been made, and he's never apologised for the comments he's made. And I think, you know, we had, and there is more than one civil rights movement. There has always been, you know, in the 1960s, the way we considered race moved forward when we desegregated public spaces. In the 90s, I think we really moved forward in terms of lesbian gay rights. And at the end of the 90s, we got rid of Section 28 so that we were able to talk in schools about LGBT kids. I think now where we find ourselves in 2020 is we're on something resembling a civil rights movement for trans people, which is, you know, trans people have been around for decades,

for hundreds of years. For as long as society has been recorded, there are people who have lived in the gender other than the one they were given at birth. So the question is maybe why now? It's not a case of is this happening or are trans people new because they're not. My question mark hangs over why the media is so keen now. Because we've been around for so long.

You know, Nadia won Big Brother in 2005. You know, so that's's what, 15 years ago? And all of a sudden, now the press are really interested in trans rights as though it was something new. And it's just not. So I mean, maybe that's the question. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? You're right, I kind of forgot about that. And I guess maybe it's coinciding with this word, I speak about this whole time, but we're in such a polarised time of like, increasing wokeness and everyone being really liberal especially in certain bubbles in London you feel like no one could ever see a problem with anything you could

do whatever you want and then on the other hand we have like rising bigotry and toxic masculinity and more far-right awakening and it does seem like a very odd time where you have two there's no middle ground really on in anything that seems to be happening i think twitter is a perfect example of that and we do and we need more nuance we absolutely do and i think it's really important to try and work out why the world is reacting the way it is i think it's a lot to do with the internet. I think, you know, the sharing of fake news cannot be discounted when we look at sort of elections across Europe and America and South America and in the UK as well. And we look at what in society has changed. The biggest change in 100 years was the birth of the internet,

and certainly in post-war anyway. And it's changed the way that stories are shared, the way that news is spread. And maybe that's something to do with it as well. But I do think, you know, fundamentally, and I'm from Bradford in West Yorkshire, you know, there is an awful lot of really dissatisfied people out there. And they think the reason they are dissatisfied is because of people in minority groups. And I don't think that's true. I don't think a person being gay or a person being trans or a person being black or a person being disabled is really impacting on the lives of people outside of the bubbles. You know, I live in a bubble down south. I'm in Brighton as well. So I think it's a swizz, it's a scam. You know, I'm sure the government would love people to think the

reason they're dissatisfied is because of minorities, but it's not. The reason people are dissatisfied ultimately comes down to government. Well, that's exactly it. It's the punchdown theory, isn't it? So to distract from their own, whatever the misdemeanors the government are doing, they point out the minority groups to make people feel like they've got, because everyone wants someone to blame and point fingers at. I mean, Brexit is the ultimate scapegoat.

Have you ever seen Heathers? No, I keep getting watched. Oh, it's amazing scene have you ever seen heathers no i keep amazing because it's so so good so the end of heathers evil christian slater has gone all the school to sign a petition agreeing to kill themselves but the difference is everybody thinks they've signed a different petition so some people think they've signed up for like um jacuzzis in the canteen and some people think they've signed up to have a boy band play at the prom and it felt like that was what Brexit was it was like whatever is wrong with your life whatever is pissing you off in your life let's just Brexit and that will fix it and so it's going to be really interesting now that Brexit is kind of occurring it'll be really interesting to

see what the press what the government blame next because they certainly can't blame the EU anymore so just cycling back quickly for those who maybe are um uninitiated because I think that talking about for someone who maybe doesn't have the language for it even I feel like sometimes I don't want to say the wrong thing talking about trans rights if they don't understand might feel really far removed from them or even understanding what it means to be trans so in the most like kind of basic way when you're when you were younger like I know you didn't trans transition until like five or six years ago am I right yeah I was kind of old yeah I think I was nearly dead I was like basically I came out to some friends when I was about 28 and then I kind of put the wheels in motion but had you known from very, very young?

Yeah. So it was a case, then again, of space and time. So I was born in the 80s and we just didn't have the knowledge. So even though, you know, I was saying to my mum, I've got the hiccups now, when am I going to turn into a girl? When am I going to turn into a girl? She was just kind of like, that doesn't happen. You know, that's not a thing. And I think I was taken to my GP because

they were worried and the GP didn't point them in the right direction. But again, we've come, you know, that was 30 years ago and we've come a really long way since. So I think had I been born now, so I had been born, what, 12 years ago, there's no doubt in my mind that my mum would have been better informed and certainly the GP would have been better informed and would have been able to point her in the direction of mermaids or somebody like that. Yeah. And so now, because you work very closely with the charity Stonewall, which is one, I remember signing the petition about not having something to passports. What was it, putting your gender in a passport?

That sounds about right, yeah. Was that not that long ago? I remember it being quite a big campaign. So Stonewall, they are the trans rights charity? Or they... Oh, they've opened a television now. Because actually Stonewall only started defending the rights of trans people in 2015. And before that, they were exclusively lgb and then

under ruth hunt it was amazing um ruth hunt when she came on board as ceo she said no way it's inclusion for everyone like no exceptions so that's lgb anti some people don't like that and obviously gender and sexuality are slightly different concerns you know in the broadest possible easy to understand terms you know sexuality is who you go to bed with gender is who you go to bed as love that yeah obviously asexual people are real and that's the thing but that's the easiest way yeah to i think get that message across but Stonewall recognize that for one thing some trans people are also gay or lesbian or bi and Stonewall also recognize that we get a lot of the same shit yeah a lot of the same people haters you know if some little cake shop in the village

doesn't want to make a cake for a lesbian wedding they're probably also going to have an issue with trans people yeah you know so actually I want to speak a bit about this because um I've been initiated this later on not being a person who has been marginalized for any of those things so now I do understand it and I see so I try to follow so many people talking about lots of things and there's a lot going on at the minute about trans exclusionary radical feminists or people that say things which are um exclusionary and I think the other annoying thing is that right-wing press pick up on when someone has pointed out a very valid reason why a comment is trans exclusionary but then they make it seem like it's really stupid and what what frustrates me because I kind of watch it all going on but I'm not a voice in that community and also don't feel like I could bridge the gap what what I'd love for to you to

try and like explore with me is how even if it's a really small comment on the surface to someone who's not affiliated one of those groups the impact that that comment once tied into this whole narrative can have I mean we've just really sadly lost Caroline Flack and no doubt that was compounded because of things that have happened in the media. And I wondered if you could explain why, like with language especially, it's so important that we try to,

it's okay to make mistakes, but we try to be inclusive in the way that we speak about people and the way that we think about things. And I think that nuance, again, I'm probably going to say nuance a lot because i think it's an important word i always think questions are fine but concerns suggest prejudice you know it's what it's one thing you know if you've never met a trans person you don't work with trans people and i will say you've never met a trans

person that you know of because we are very much part of society. It's one thing to have questions, because why wouldn't you? I remember sort of going to school and, you know, having all sorts of questions about, you know, what's a Jehovah's Witness? You know, kind of, oh, I think that's fine. Those are valid questions. And I don't, again, I don't think trans people in general are looking to shut down questions here I am happily answering questions where it becomes and I think it's a bit of a dog whistle is the word concerns I just have concerns you know you

don't have concerns about good things you have concerns about coronavirus or bird flu or, you know, SARS. You know, so to say that you have concerns about trans people is a very loaded word because we only have concerns about burglars and negative things. So straight away, by coming to the conversation with concerns, you're saying that there is something to be concerned about. You know that that being trans is like some sort of a worst case scenario or something insidious something that we should be concerned or anxious about and and it's a neutral it just is yeah you know for as long as as long as there's been people that have been trans people um we might not always call them that but it looks like there always has been

i mean and you know it was kind of it was formalized and medicalized in the 1930s a long time ago um and so i think that's that's where it can get where you're on slightly shaky ground in terms of the groups you mentioned and you know i i don't like using you may you may have heard the word turf use I don't use that because I don't think it's especially feminist yeah it's true to exclude a whole bunch of women um you know who are quite a vulnerable group of women as well and we know that particularly sort of trans women of color are in a particularly precarious position if you look at sort of murder rates around the world and so I don't consider that very feminist to be honest so I'm a feminist all my friends are feminists so I don't really see why they get to keep the word feminist and why we're not

allowed to call ourselves feminists so I think people often say you know it's not that I'm transphobic but and as we all know everything before but doesn't count so it's kind of I always think that if if there are groups that are set up and twitter accounts that are set up just to challenge and undermine trans women that's transphobic and, you know, so either on one end there's just the out and out transphobia, which is, oh, my God, she looks like a man. Oh, my God, that can't be a woman. Then you've got the slightly lesser version, which is kind of just, you know, I wouldn't want to share a changing room with someone like that.

Well, why? You know, 50, 60 years years ago that's what people said about black women you know we don't want black people in our swimming pools you have to sit in a different part of the coffee shop kind of and now sort of saying well no I wouldn't want to be in a changing room or a public toilet with a trans woman spoiler alert you have been hundreds of times for as long as you've been alive because trans people have always been there you know that's an argument i've actually had personally with people that i know because i was trying to explain how bigoted and silly that is to think first of all because the argument is always like because what if they find me attractive or something like that and it's like well first of all you ever the argument is always like, because what if they find me attractive or something like that? And it's like, well, first of all, have you ever heard of a lesbian?

Yeah, we'd best ban them from the changing room as well. Exactly. Quick, get Ellen out of this changing room. But this really weird, this narrative and this rhetoric around being scared or the idea, this is the really dangerous one, that people will transition for the sake of like perving. How hard is it to transition? I'm sure that someone can't just go and do that in an afternoon. No, I mean, it's wild. And what really pisses me off about this so-called feminist argument is that it completely draws attention from the people who we know hurt women. And statistically, of course, that is most likely to be a partner or ex-partner. So all this conversation

about this phantom menace of trans women in top shop changing rooms, it is a distraction from the conversations we should be having as feminists, which is what can we do to empower women in relationships? What can we do to improve the prosecution service? What can we do to train police to recognise domestic violence? And that's what annoys me, because the notion that, you know, some scary predator is going to, you know, go to the GP, is going to live in their required gender for two years, is going to dutifully change their passport and change their driver's licence, gather up two years worth of bank statements, all to get their new birth certificate so that they can go in a Topshop changing room

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Exclusively on FanDuel Casino. Where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. And I would say to your listeners, when was the last time somebody checked your ID in a changing room? Yeah.

It doesn't happen. So, and again, there's no receipts. You know, there are many, many countries all around the world which do have self-ID now, Ireland, the Republic of Ireland has no sort of medical process for changing your ID and stuff. And where's the receipts? All of a sudden, it's like Freddy Krueger down the changing room. No, of course, that's not what's happened. It's also, it's a weird like sexualization of trans people because it's, for some reason, assuming that it's all to do with sexuality, which, as you just outlined before, that's not what it's about at all. It's about who you are as a person and your gender. Of course, yeah.

It's a weird, I almost think that's not like, well, it is a bit of a fetishization, but it's also a massive simplification of, like, what is going on and kind of like a distraction tactic like you said. I mean, of course, that is one of those kind of the big and very harmful myths. You know, trans men get, oh, they're confused lesbians who are mutilating their bodies, whereas trans women tend to get, they are scary perverts who are dressing as women for a sexual thrill. I mean, here I sit before you in my roll-neck sweater and bobbly day pants, as I like to call them. You know, it's mad. But I think, I like to think, because those groups are amplified on social media because they all retweet each other,

so they create their own little echo chamber. And also that the media, the media has they look it loves the debate it loves to position it as some sort of culture war whereby you've got you know in this country maybe about a quarter of a million trans people going about their lives just working on the bakers or whatever versus maybe 20 really hardcore fanatics and they keep putting those 20 on the news and that's the problem yeah it's it's a weird one because I hate this idea of and Debra Franswijk talks about this a lot but about how they will do something for balance so for balance they'll get like an opposition on it's like we don't need to see that

we see that all the time what we need is someone that's giving like a fairer account and also I do find it like the more you step away from stuff that goes on in the world especially like marginalization and things and you just think what is it that makes you not want to want other people to be happy like what is it that's frustrating you so much in this scenario and the other thing going back to like the bathroom thing that that was really fucking me off when I was having this argument I was like the other thing, going back to the bathroom thing that was really fucking me off when I was having this argument, I was like, the other thing is that must be so fearful. If you just transition, you're finally for the first time getting to go into the bathroom. You're like, this is my bathroom. I'm meant to be in here.

Like the emotions that are going through that person's head, it's like there's no empathy. It's a really dehumanizing breakdown of what people think it is to be trans I think putting the humanity back into it and trying to imagine like if I was if I was born with a willy I would have wanted to be a woman so it's the same thing you know and I don't know why people get so hung up on wanting it not to be the case it's it's it's that fear of the unknown but it's really not that unknown unknown. I mean, I think the pot has been stirred by social media and by the mainstream media. I think I can't quite figure out what the problem is now, but I think, you know, the more I step away from social media, I realise the vast, vast majority of people just don't care.

And again, that was why I took a step back from twitter because bless them some very well meaning kind of allies and other trans people are slightly buying into this argument and keep on retweeting these people and say oh my god have you seen what he's said now have you seen what they've done now and i'm like i tell you what if you're just pottering around you don't see this actually the vast majority of people and this is going even back to the very early days of my transition where, you know, I didn't really look the way I do now. People kind of didn't give a shit. You know, we're all, you know, and it was actually Emily Thornberry, the Labour MP. She was saying recently that when she was growing up, there was like a dinner lady at

her school who was trans, you know, and they all just accepted, oh, one of our dinner ladies was born a different way. And that's always been the case. I think wherever you live in this country, we all sort of colloquially, which is a word I can't say apparently, we all had that sort of the local sort of trans person that we all kind of knew. We might not have called them trans because language evolves and changes. But it's, I think most people just don't care.

It's just slightly mind your own business kind of. It's so true. I just remember that I had a trans lecture at uni. I've never even thought about it. Like I didn't remember. I haven't thought about it since. And it is very true. I do think you're right.

Also, I guess with you and I, like both both of our jobs you are very much in social media so it does feel like this is going on all around the world and it's kind of it's kind of constant but it's not really so I mean going forwards in a utopian idealistic world what kind of things are you hoping like what are you hoping from allies and what kind of changes could we as allies and anyone make that makes the space a bit easier? Because you're right, off social media, on social media, you can be in a Twitter all day long. But in the real world, what kind of things make spaces better for people who perhaps are suffering with gender dysphoria or who are transitioning? I think, I said this last night at an event for LGBT History Month, which is actually social media stuff isn't enough.

Sort of putting a little sort of rainbow flag on your Twitter is great, but then, you know, I just deleted Twitter. So that's gone. So that support has now gone. And so I think while all that stuff helps, you know, increasingly I see people putting their pronouns on their social media, on their email footers. That makes, you know, if everybody is sharing their pronouns, it means a trans person might not have to out themselves as trans, you know, basically. So it kind of smooths things down a little bit.

I mean, the most basic thing, I think the absolute bare minimum is just respecting pronouns. It doesn't really matter what that man looks like or what that woman looks like. If they are saying they want to use he or she or they pronouns, it's absolutely no skin off your nose. Yeah. We should all be practicing using they, them pronouns. We were discussing Sam Smith and their new single at the weekend. And oh my God, we all at one point misgendered them. And we were discussing Sam Smith and their new single at the weekend. And oh, my God, we all at one point misgendered them.

And we all just had to be like, this has to be like just a minute or something. As soon as somebody gets it wrong, we've got to call each other out. Because, you know, my friends have all been amazing at learning my pronouns. But, you know, I'm very, very binary. So she, her came quite naturally. Whereas, you know, increasingly people are using they them pronouns so I think it's a case of almost it's nothing there's no malice in it but it's almost like a verbal exercise yeah kind of I have a friend who calls everyone that she hasn't met yet by they them and it's so clever smart yeah because then you

and I was going who you talking about she was like well I don't know what their pronouns are so they them and that's it and that's really clever because it is you're right it's that mental arithmetic of getting used to your and once you get used to it it's it's comes out straight away the more you do it the easier yeah yeah and I know that people that's actually really annoying ignorant argument as well when people are like well it doesn't it doesn't work it doesn't fit a sentence and it's like what do you do when you're talking about two people you say those they're coming to the party yeah um i think as well the other piece of really super solid practical um support people can give is donating whatever you can afford to surgery crowdfunders i mean this one of the other very harmful myths around transition is that it's a

crazy zany whim and you know it's you know you know you decide to be trans then the very harmful myths around transition is that it's a crazy zany whim and you know it's you know you know you decide to be trans then the very next day you're on a surgical table you know there are people waiting three four years to even be seen by a gender clinic that that was a piece of news that came out this week that wasn't a surprise to the trans community one little bit because obviously we're the ones on that wait list but there's not I don't think there are very many other procedures or specialists where you would wait three years like can you imagine if you you know had depression or an eating disorder oh yeah it's fine we'll get you in three years so what was the reason that it's just they're not prioritizing it or they're over a lot of people oversubscribed really yeah and just not enough clinics there's only about six clinics in the uk and then one in northern ireland i think

um which is obviously part of the uk um but um it's it's just not good i mean i was quite jammy so i got on the wait list in 2014 and they had just opened a new clinic near northamptonshire and they were told right you'll have a sixamptonshire and they were told, right, you'll have a six-month wait list. And I was like, okay, that's doable. But then the six months turned into nine months and the nine months turned into 10 months and then the 10 months turned into 18 months. And by that point, of course, I was already self-medicating. So I'd gone down the private route and, you know, it was a desperate time, was 2014 and 15. I felt completely out of control of my life, completely out of control of my body. And so I think what some trans people try to do,

if that's the route they want to take, is try to take control. And you can do that through, you know, either self-medicating privately or by, you know, by opting for surgeries. Not all trans people opt for surgeries, but I always think, you know, it's so expensive and much, much gender affirming surgery isn't available on the NHS anyway. So, you know, when you see a trans person asking for help towards surgery it's not because they fancy having a smaller nose it's because they are struggling to leave the house because often because of the shit they get in public could you tell me like what the process you have to go to lazy but from like what kind of things you have to do like what are the steps so you apply and then you go on hormone or like how

does it actually work in terms of how long would it take and well i think the important take home is there are there are as many ways to be trans as there are trans people right and if you want to stop listening now that's fine but don't because i'm going to tell you more um it is you know it's it's about you know the still the medical diagnosis you get is gender dysphoria which is the distress depression or anxiety caused by feeling your body doesn't match your identity so that's that's the medical part so it's you know it's kind of that's what that's why doctors intervene it's to reduce that issue um But dysphoria presents differently for everyone. For me, it was just an absolute certainty that had all gone according to plan. You know,

I would have been a girl and, you know, it didn't all go according to plan, but that shouldn't stop me. And, you know, it just took me 30 years to kind of figure out that I didn't need to let that stop me. I chose to go down the medical route because I wanted my body to as closely match the version of myself that I had in my head. You know, when I was a little girl, I really, really clearly could see myself as an adult woman. You know, I knew exactly who I was going to be. And that did involve having a traditionally female body. And sort of as I've gone down the medical route, I found my dysphoria has eased off.

I have less anxiety and depression about the way I look and the way I am. Some people don't have that. Some people don't feel they need surgeries, that they don't want to go on hormones. A lot of trans people can't for health or existing health reasons. I think that's really important to remember as well, which is for some people, you know, going into surgeries might kill them. So they can't. And then for other people, it's about just, you know, expressing their gender. And we all have gender expression. Every time we get dressed or do our hair up or makeup on, we are expressing our own version of who we want to be. And so for some people, it just comes down to those sorts of things. And for some people, just comes down to those sorts of things and for some people

you don't have to do anything you know you don't get like a pack in the post that says welcome to being trans step one get your ears pierced it just doesn't work like that but the medical pathway which a percentage of trans people do follow is usually in this country because it slightly varies obviously we for now have an NHS god bless it um um it starts as an adult usually with you connecting with your GP um they will refer you to the gender identity clinic that will take one two three years i think the worst is near nottingham i think it is three year wait now um and then they will still so this is at the time of speaking because there's obviously a lot of people want this to be reformed um it takes two doctors who have to diagnose you as having gender dysphoria and then they will officially initiate your treatment. So obviously, you're looking at maybe two years before they'll even

give you your hormone replacement therapy. And then, so I mean, yeah, it's excruciating. It's not good enough. And what would, of course, make it easier is if we could remove that need to medicalise it. Because in my mind, my GP was amazing. And I don't understand why my GP couldn't prescribe my hormones. So what about how, surely it's really subjective to decide whether you're, like, why does it take two people to tell you how you're feeling about, like, how do they measure that? Do you know what I mean? I assume, I assume that as well with some things, tell you how you're feeling about like how do they measure that do you know what i mean i assume i

assume that as well with some things i suppose a it's a second opinion and b there's a period of watchful waiting and that's true that's true of a lot of of conditions um being trans is not a condition but it's true of a lot of things within the nhs and for now being diagnosed as having gender dysphoria is within the NHS. And so I suppose they do want to almost send you away, you know, before you start making any sort of big life choices. But during that 18 months that I was waiting to be seen at the gender identity clinic, you know, I was able to get a new passport.

I was able to get a new driver's license. So this is why, and obviously, a lot of this sort of culture war did stem from attempts to modernize the process. Because this system was put in place in 2004. And it's not really fit for purpose anymore. There are other parts of the world, Malta, Argentina, Denmark, Ireland, that are doing it better and have a much more streamlined system. And so that's why people have been pushing for change. One thing I want to pick up on, she touched on briefly, is the idea that, and I have someone that I follow, kind of know through Instagram, who's just been also crowdfunding for their transition. And you pointed out then that sometimes it's not only because they want to do it,

but because of the safety of trans people, especially as you said, like black trans women is awful. If people feel like they can't, I mean, there's countless numbers of attacks on trans women when people aren't sure if they can 100% assert that they know that they're a woman. I wondered if you could speak about speak on the safety aspect of it because it is really kind of undermining when people think it is because they just want bigger boobs it's not really about that it's a whole lot bigger than a cosmetic thing

of course yeah I mean it's you know again I'm only going to speak for myself but the reason that I opted to have some surgeries was to just reduce that dysphoria. You know, what we are all aspiring towards, both trans and not trans, is finding some sort of contentment. I don't think life necessarily is about striving for perfection or bliss or ecstasy. I think it's just, can you be in any way, shape or form comfortable within yourself? And that's what dysphoria is. It's just that intense discomfort within yourself. And so for me, I found having surgeries took some of that discomfort away. But you're absolutely right, there is a huge safety element because, you know, in the six or seven years since I started, and this leads us into a different conversation,

you know, the street harassment I got went from being very transphobic in tone to just being misogynist. So now I just get nice legs or give us a smile. So I get all the same shit that any other woman would get, which is, again, why feminism is for all women. Yeah, it's so fascinating, isn't it? Being able to watch how every kind of category of woman you're going to get attacked. And the thing that I was kind of wanting to talk about, I find very interesting because the reason why we need feminism for men is because of this toxic masculinity,

which makes you believe that their masculinity is the most important thing to them. And so when they do maybe meet a trans woman who they perhaps get with or whatever, they can then become really violent when they feel like they've been lied to about this gender because of their physicality. But I think the fundamental thing that we need to understand

is that evidently biological sex, what you're born with isn't what your gender is like they're different things yeah and i think you know the the easiest way to this i like tell a little story my next book's called what's the tea and i tell a little sort of hypothetical thought experiment whereas if there was a really burly builder let's call him pete and pete was working on a building site and he fell off scaffolding and his genitals would torn off what ouch you know horrific poor poor pete but would we say he was a man or a woman clearly he's still a man you know his genitals didn't define his sense

of self what and i think that's i think a really good way of understanding it I think um that again this notion that trans people are out to trick men into having sex again that just that's that's come from our diff transphobic friends as well and you know as a trans woman I understood even in the really early days that men might might kill me. And so I was hugely open about who I was, because I was aware that my safety was becoming a thing. And, you know, my friends perceived it as well, because they all started putting me in taxis and Ubers. My friends had never put me in taxis before, you know, in 28 years, I'd never been put in a taxi. But I think even my friends recognized I was in a more sort of vulnerable position um and what you referred to is called the gay panic defense which is largely illegal all around the world now but for a long time yeah there were men getting off on murder charges because they were saying either oh she was secretly a man oh, he tried to have sex with me. And, you know, so that affected both gay men and trans women.

Wow. And that was, and it's been, yeah, it's been slowly but surely, it's been outlawed. So solicitors can't use that in court anymore. So that was an actual defense? Of course, it's called the gay panic defense. Oh, my God. I have no idea about that. Literally, men got away with murder because there was, you know, the argument that they were presenting in court was like, you know, what man wouldn't kill a woman who was transsexual?

What man wouldn't kill a man who tried to have sex with him? Understandable. Off you go, kind of. Oh, my gosh. So what, but that means that, so if they, if they'd got with a man, I don't know. got with the, I don't know, but that just, I don't know, I can't believe that is. It is insane, and particularly across North America at the moment, they're sort of state by state.

I think just New Jersey a couple of weeks ago has said, solicitors, you can no longer come to us trying to defend murder on the grounds of gay panic. I just can't believe that that was even a thing ever. Madness. Absolutely horrific. You're in a really happy relationship and you just got engaged. Yes, getting married in June.

Oh my God, that is so exciting. So fast. That's amazing though. Have you got it all planned? My sister's getting married in June actually. Wedmin. Yeah, it's been a lot. I understand now why people tend to take longer.

I was like, who needs 18 months to plan a wedding? Answer everyone. So we've had to work really fast. I mean, thank God that I'm freelance so that I've been able to spend a chunk of my mornings sorting things out. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of, you know, I'm very happy with Max. And, you know, it's been a couple of years now and it, you know, it's lovely and heartening to see that a lot of other trans people kind of get in touch with me and say that there's not enough evidence in the world that trans people, you know, can

still find love. And of course, trans people can find love. There's a life of love out there. But, you know, like everyone, I hadn't really seen it on tv I'd not read about it in magazines but then then Max came along and you know it just it just kind of happened yeah no you're an amazing woman I mean for any woman but the fact that you're so successful and you're beautiful and you're getting married like it is just and it's a really wonderful thing and I can only hope that that is something that we continue to see more of and that hopefully one day I'll be doing podcasts and it'll be with a trans author and I don't have to talk about being trans the entire time because I guess that

is the ultimate goal that you don't have to discuss well it's six I mean because this I mean this summer I've got two books coming up both of which tap into trans issues I think what I'm doing a lot more of going forward is kind of letting my work do the talking. So I think especially since stepping away from Twitter, I've realised I don't need to say this because I've got two books out this year, Wonderland and What's the Tea? And it's all there.

I don't need to keep sending it out in 140 characters, kind of. But it would be, I think, a bit diva-ish of me to come on a podcast and be like, oh, sorry, we're just talking about my books. Because actually my books are about trans issues. So it would be really mad to not. I think after this year, I wonder if between Wonderland and What's the Tea, if maybe if I've said everything I want to say for now, I think those books I really poured my heart and soul into them and and I do I mean through doing things like this you know you do hope that now people are coming away with a better education and it is about education. But I'm very wary that we seem to keep having a lot of the same conversations.

And I think we need to sort of think, what's next? You know, we've been talking about Gender Recognition Act now since about 2018. So we're now two years on. It still hasn't happened. But we need, yeah, we need, I i think to sort of move yeah move on we've got we can't keep having the same conversations but that's going to take it's going to take everything it's going to take social media it's going to take the mainstream media um but i mean go out there you know that there's trans people living in your community wherever you're hearing this there are trans people they

have families they have boyfriends or girlfriends they are working in post office and supermarkets go if you have those questions and remember you know questions are fine concerns are bullshit you know go go and ask those questions go make make a trans friend today. Befriend your local trans person. You won't be able to know who they are, though. That's the other thing. I think people have this idea that you can see if someone's trans. That we're wearing a sign and ringing a bell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Exactly. You know, there are so many. I mean, in the olden days, we used to call that living stealth. So, I mean, people, you know, used to, because persecution of trans people has historically been pretty shit. It was easier for people to just not be out, to just kind of go about their business as men or women. Whereas I think now, you know, increasingly, you know, I'm very proud to be trans. You know, that word describes a journey that I've been on. It describes my struggles. It describes my past. You know, I'm one of the best-selling authors

of YA fiction in this country, despite the fact I'm trans, not because of the fact I'm trans. You know, so I did that. I did all that and made a success of myself. So I think, you know, I like to think that going forward, I don't know what that noise is. It's so weird.

Like, hello? God? So, yeah, so, I mean, maybe that's the next step is just kind of sort of understanding that in this world there are all different kinds of people and, like, 1% of them are going to be trans. Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, my gosh.

Well, thank you so much for coming to speak to me. If people do want to find you, not literally, come find you. you well i'm still on instagram because i do like instagram yeah it's nice few pictures so it's just juna dawson just everywhere except twitter for this although that said i'm still on twitter i'm gonna use it for work stuff but i just i need it not plugged into my vein yeah no that's completely fair and all of your books are available at all good bookstores online and there are loads of them amazing thank you thank you so much you know thanks for having to my vein. Yeah, no, that's completely fair. And all of your books are available at all good bookstores, online, and there are loads of them. Amazing.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Gina. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening. Bye. Fandu Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit We'll be right back. Every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day.