Adulting - #58 When Will We Be 'Successful'? with Louise Troen

Episode Date: April 4, 2020

Hey podulters, this episode was recorded at the beginning of March before the pandemic hit, so there is no mention of it! I speak to Louise Troen about her career, what success truly means and how to make yourself seen in the workplace. I hope you enjoy, as always please do rate, review and subscribe!Oenone Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. okay in this very weird time. You're all staying safe and all your family, etc. are safe. This episode that's going out today was one that I recorded pre-pandemic so it was right at the beginning of March and it is with Louise Chowen who was the VP at Bumble for their

marketing strategy and has had a really interesting and cool career and she's a woman that I met at a different event and heard her speak and just thought she'd be such a great person to have on the podcast to encourage us to think about what success really means, challenge the way that we change our careers and to speak up and, you know, really go for it when it comes to getting the kind of life that we want to have. So I really hope you enjoy the episode. And as always, please do rate, review and subscribe. I'm also working from home with my boyfriend at the minute and I think he is on a Skype call or a Zoom call or whatever it is. So if you can hear him in the background, I'm really sorry about that. But yeah, enjoy. Bye.

Hi guys and welcome to Adulting. Today I'm joined by Louise Treman. Hello. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm great. I think the two coffees we had earlier will definitely be helpful for the next hour. I agree. Like cha-cha-cha-cha-cha. Thank you so much for coming to join me and having coffee with me and getting me really hyped up because I don't know what's going to happen now. But for people who don't know who you are, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Yeah, sure. So firstly, thanks so much for inviting me on. I always feel so honoured and I feel like it's such a privilege when I get invited to speak on these sorts of things because I've had such a lucky career and I've felt really fortunate in everything that I've done. And so being able to tell that story and hopefully inspire others is always something that, yeah, I feel really grateful for, so thank you. I'm probably most well-known career-wise yeah, I feel really grateful for, so thank you. I'm probably most well-known career-wise for what I've just finished doing, which was working at Bumble, the social networking app. I was the vice president of international marketing and communications for close to about four and a half years.

My job there was to launch Bumble in the UK and then subsequently launch us in various other markets in Europe and oversee our brilliant teams that we had in Asia and Australia as well. My kind of predominant focus of that role was go-to-market strategy, communications, creative campaigns, growing the team, scaling the teams. And so really was in my dream job when it came to activating across various marketing channels. But more importantly, I was working for a brand that was all about female empowerment. So Bumble's whole mantra is encouraging women to go after what they want. And that was something that I felt really strongly about in my identity. And I felt like I had done most of my life and throughout my career. So it was such a treat to be able to kind of pay that message forward to other women.

And before then, I had been living in Los Angeles. I was a publicist to some celebrities that you might know. And previous to that, I worked in um at a company called freud's which is one of the most um the strongest pr agencies in in the in the in the world really um and and yeah before that studied sociology at bristol so really have had a bit of a chaotic and messy career in terms of its trajectory but um i'm a real advocate of um following your instinct and intuition in terms of its trajectory, but I'm a real advocate of following your instinct and intuition in terms of your next step as opposed to crafting out a master plan. Yeah.

It's an amazing career to have had for anyone, but you're really young and the position you're in at Bumble was very high up and you really kind of transformed the company from what I've heard of what you did. Like you really, really did bring them to the fore and make them what they are today. Like everyone knows what Bumble is, which is amazing. But I wanted to pick on, so it's really interesting. You said right at the beginning,

I've had a very lucky and very fortunate career. And I wanted to ask you if that's imposter syndrome leaking out or if you genuinely do think you've been lucky. I think it's a combination. When I talk about luck, I really believe that you create your own luck. But the luck that I received was people believing in me.

So I was lucky enough to turn up at the right time in front of the right person in Los Angeles at a time when she needed someone to run the division and the team. Now, there's an element of that that I think is luck or coincidence, whatever you want to call it. And then there's an element of it that is about me showing up and me following that motivation, that drive and her being in a position where she could offer me opportunity. But I think ultimately, yeah, imposter syndrome is very real, I think, especially for women nowadays. I don't think you'd ever hear a man be like, I was so lucky to be successful. They'd just be like, I worked really hard and I got what I I deserved um but I actually I actually don't mind that syndrome in myself because it actually gives me the drive and the reason to kind of keep pushing I think when you feel a little bit

like the underdog your motivation to become the overdog is that even a word I know what you mean the the desire to be that the kind of lead and quash that that um stereotype is even greater um so what motivated you to go out to LA in the first place like once you finished your degree what what was your idea of what your career was going to be did you have any kind of foresight that you would be sat here now moving on to perhaps your third iteration of a career or your fourth even? No, not at all. And I think it's actually really dangerous for young people in terms of when I was at university, you know, you go,

or at school even, you go to a careers advisor. And these people have had no experience in any other role apart from being the careers advisor. So you're sat in front of someone that's like, okay, you're quite bad at math, so like don't be a banker. You're quite good at English, so maybe be a journalist. And really don't have any experience of all of the wealth of opportunity out there from various different industries. I also think there wasn't enough education or understanding for me of the kind of plethora of different industries there were. I didn't even

know that you could be an engineer when I was at university. I didn't even understand, if you studied chemistry, the kind of different roles that you could do. I thought that, you know, you'd always have to go into like chemical engineering or become a scientist. Whereas actually, you know, there are so many different opportunities with these subjects. But at the time, I watched a lot of documentaries. And I thought storytelling was something that I really liked. I had a big imagination. And so just decided that I would try and go into making documentaries whatever whatever that meant and I had a friend's father that worked at a production studio called Pioneer Productions

and they gave me a receptionist job so I was like organizing all the meetings and actually the CEO of the company I must have been like 23 or something came up to me one day and was like organizing all the meetings and actually the CEO of the company I must have been like 23 or something came up to me one day and was like we love having you in the company but I really don't think you should be here and I was like what this is like my favorite job ever he was like you're great answering the phones and your cup of coffee is banging but you're a real communicator and every time someone comes in the room they engage with you they want to like take your information you know these this is a real skill and he was actually kind enough to be like, I think you should maybe work in PR because it's so about relationships and storytelling and engaging people in your narrative of thought. So I had a little look at PR agencies and in like traditional me sense, I was like best PR agency in London because nothing else would do. And it said Freud's.

And so I looked at their client list and it was something that was interesting and so I managed to just email their work experience email and get a placement there and that's sort of how that started. And did you always have this kind of gumption and feel that you could do it because I feel like I'm a bit like you in that I will just once I find out I want to do something I'm like oh well look into that I won't necessarily go through the rigmarole of wondering why I can't and in some ways that kind of opens up a door because you haven't almost gone through the loops like sometimes I get things because I don't go through the right way of doing it and I just go bulldoze my way in and in a funny way that can really work in your favor did you find that that was something throughout your career where

actually just standing up and putting yourself in front of people was the best thing you could do even if you weren't overly qualified for it? Yeah, I don't really look at kind of, even the word qualification, it's like we draft these specs for what we will need a job to be and we, you know, even today it's like you need to have a minimum of 10 years of experience. if you have four years on the front line executing everything to the nth degree with a team of 50 and you're still 28 you're gonna you're gonna be just as well quote-unquote qualified as someone that sat in the back office but has worked for 12 years and I think the best companies are now hiring people on attitude on work work ethic, on creative inspiration, and actually all of these new terms that traditionally and still with a number of companies today weren't seen as skill sets.

And I think I was, you know, in a position, especially at Freud's, where I knew that I was junior and so I was really keen to learn and there were a lot of people in the agency that kind of saw my attitude which was like sit me in every meeting would you be so kind as to spend half an hour with me at 6 30 and I asked every single day I was like can I see this can I have a look at that document can I and it was just it came from a place of being curious but ultimately I was there for a couple of years and it was really clear to me that they had a hierarchical structure that meant, you know, you get promoted every year. And that just wasn't something that I agreed with. I think inherently, you know, I believe in meritocracy and people should be rewarded on their work as opposed to their time put in um and had really embarrassingly just watched a lot of shows on la and was like i'm gonna go live my dream there i wish i could say it was something like

much cooler but no did you find that working in pr because it's a weird i always think it's about pr but it's a funny um relationship because you'll be working with clients who maybe are really famous or celebrities and i can imagine that when you're on one side of the fence probably looking looking at numbers, the things that are being sent, the money they're making, maybe in relation to the job that they're doing. Do you think that gave you a bit of kind of vim to want to look out for more? Because I assume a starting PR salary isn't that great. Yeah, actually, that's a great question. I think the perks that you get with working as a publicist and in that kind of industry are so sexy when you're that age. You know, you're going to these events and you're walking down.

I was like, you know, doing premieres in Leicester Square and taking celebrities and getting them to be interviewed by like Now TV. And for me, that was like the coolest thing ever. So I was like, I don't mind taking a low salary. And I was actually living at home with my parents because, you know, on those salaries, you can't really afford to live in London. And I think I also had the attitude of like, I haven't, I haven't earned more than this right now. And it took me two or three years to get to a point of recognizing the value I was adding before I thought this structure and this kind of corporate environment isn't really for me. And I feel like if somebody really believes in me and gives me a greater space to have opportunity, I can do more.

And I was, you know, I was just, I keep saying lucky, but I was lucky that a woman in L.A. when I flew out there, British woman, was like, you remind me of me and I'm going to give you a shot. And I think more people should give more people chances. So you just mentioned obviously that you got some at home which is a massive privilege and I think that sometimes if I think we're living in a bit of a duplicitous time in that on the one hand everyone wants to be successful straight away so people want to finish uni and be on like 50k from the get-go right um and because we see especially people like influencers who it looks like they're having this imminent success or that you know they woke up one morning and had it all and whilst

the annoying thing is especially with creative industries like it generally does take a bit of privilege to allow you to have that time to be on like a lower salary absolutely but i think it is also important that uh people we don't try to champion this idea of being successful at such an age. I mean, you are really successful at a very young age. But I also imagine that for you, you're still in the very beginning of your career in your eyes in terms of like what you're going on to do. But how I kind of want to push back against this idea that we all have to have done it all by 25. Absolutely. Because I feel like that's where we're at the minute, like hustle culture and productivity and grind and all of this stuff is becoming really overwhelming yeah but also

not assuming that people have done it all because there's a label or a title so you know if somebody looks at me and says to you to your point that you just mentioned like you know you're really successful for your age that's probably based on the fact that I had a vice president title if I remember when they promoted me and I was like, guys, you don't need to give me, like, that's just like a really silly title. Like, just let me get on and do my job. And I think a lot of people are like, wow, you know, you were the VP. And I kind of say to them, like, why does this title matter? Like, I'm not the president of the United States. Let's just take a step back for a second. Like, I really care about my job. I really care about my team. And I just want to deliver good work that makes me feel inspired and hopefully

inspires other people. And similar to the work that you do, whether people call you an influencer, or they say you've got millions and millions of hits on this podcast, or whatever those numbers are, we need to stop placing them as people's identities. And then looking up to those people in terms of inspiration, because of that, people need to be inspired and aspiring based on people's identities and then looking up to those people in terms of inspiration because of that people need to be inspired and aspiring based on people's outlook and their attitudes and their visions because those are the things that are going to drive you at a younger age you're just going to feel unsatisfied if you're not a vp at 32 if you're completely focused on those labels and those titles and it's something that i've really had to coach myself into like you know why why do you have to keep getting these promotions?

And really all that matters is that you can live a nice life within your means and that people around you are kind and are respectful to you. And I think you're right that this younger generation, there's so much pressure to have a million followers on Instagram if you're an influencer or, you know, be a director by the time you're 28 and actually none of that matters all that matters is that you have good people around you and that you enjoy what you do totally although i do have to say louise is being very um sweet because everyone i've ever met so

when i first met louise it was like a couple of weeks ago and i was like oh i'm doing this thing with louise try and they're like she is amazing and everyone I've ever spoken to I paid them from like my manager to someone that I used to like live above me to someone else they were like she literally transformed Bumble like honestly you have like a legacy so you'll be that's very sweet it isn't just your title I do think that people do look at you and evidently you do work really hard and you have really created a name for yourself as someone that's very worthy of thank you I think I think that's that's super kind I think I was given a lot of opportunity um you know Whitney gave me and the team you know there was a big team around me that was doing just as much of the work as I

was um and she really she really gave me an opportunity to lead and gave me the space to drive the brand forward and I think one of my biggest pieces of advice to young women or any woman today is work for somebody that inspires you and that can teach you rather than the brand. And I was lucky enough to get both. But now as I'm kind of exploring my next opportunity, I've turned down brilliant roles recently, a big, big, big consumer brand, because I wasn't inspired by the person that interviewed me. And I think that is the most important thing that I have someone to learn from and that can give me the space to grow. And, you know, I think it's the same,

I'm sure for all the mothers out there that perhaps don't work is that it's the same way that they bring up children, you know, giving these, these young people confidence in the space to be exactly the kind of best potential that they can be. It's interesting as well because a minute ago you kind of touched on success which I guess interestingly we sometimes don't seem to see success in the way that you were deeming it which is like if you've got your friends around you that love you and you feel happy and everything's kind of in place and you can live the life you want within your means that's successful and sometimes we conflate success

and the dream job as like one thing so if you've got the perfect job then you're successful whereas actually all the other stuff could have gone to shit so you could have the dream job in verticommas but be crying every day and like not feel very happy and be exhausted and I think that kind of holistic approach is coming in and we talk about it more but I do think for a time especially when I was growing up I do still think now as well it was about like no sleep that's what yeah that's what people who got it that's what they do and then you make a million pounds and it's like do I want to be a millionaire at 25 if I'm if I'm not happy I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's more successful yeah we equate success with a finite figure of your salary and the amount of designer

goods you can buy and the nice holidays you go on. I know plenty of people that are earning big salaries that are depressed and alone and isolated and question everything and have to validate themselves through acquisition of material goods instead of sitting at the pub, me and you, talking endlessly like we do, which is really annoying for everyone around us, about nothingness. Like that's actually what joy is. And I agree with you. This glamorization of work ethic is really, really frightening. And we talk about this work-life balance.

Like it can't exist. There's five days of work and two days of relaxation. So in its very essence, it doesn't balance out. So I think trying to figure out how, and actually Vanessa Kingori from Vogue once said this to me, publishing director, she said it's about work-life blend and finding a job that you feel passionate about and the people in the job with you inspire you so that you don't feel like you're going into work. And at the weekend, you might see the people that you work with, this traditional sense of do not, you know, hang out with your work colleagues because it's unprofessional is just so archaic and ineffective. Yeah. And it's interesting because obviously, as you just said, like the majority of our time is actually spent working.

So it's like the majority of your life. And we were just talking before this briefly earlier about how now we and you said this two minutes ago about how your job becomes so much of your identity. If you watch any dating show, any show on TV, it'll be like Louise, 32, blah, blah, ago about how your job becomes so much of your identity if you watch like any dating show any show on tv it'll be like louise 32 blah blah whatever your job is so you have those three things that are your identity your name your age and then what you do and you made the salient point of saying like it's funny when people say oh i'm not my career isn't my life and it's like but it kind of it kind of is because you do have to have spend so much time working and we label each other by their jobs i'm always it's like, but it kind of is because you do have to spend so much time working. And we label each other by their jobs.

I'm always, it's a really bad habit, but I will ask someone, what are they like, blah, blah, blah. And what do they do? And we make snap judgments on that idea, even though, as we just discussed, someone could work in Tesco's and that might be their dream career because it gives them that work-life blend. They can see their family. They feel really happy and they earn enough money to buy the stuff they need. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I totally agree. And I also think like, you know, there's – and I want to mention this woman because she's amazing.

There's a woman that owns the shampoo shop opposite me. She calls it the shampoo shop. That's not me. It's her hairdressers. But she's like, come into my shampoo shop. I'm like, it's a hairdresser. Let me rebrand your shop. I quite like that.

Yeah, she's a hairdresser. Let me rebrand your shop. I quite like that. Yeah, she's amazing. And she's had it for so many years. And she got offered to open. People queue to get their hair cut by her. And she's fantastic. And her energy and her aura is just amazing. You walk in and she's like, sit down on the sofa. Tell me about your marriage.

Tell me about your boyfriend. You know, she brings out the wine. It's a real, like, community spot. I go there, like, I get my I get my haircut like four times a month. And she's like, you absolutely don't need your haircut. And I'm like, please talk to me. But she was offered various different opportunities to kind of scale the business. And she was like, no, I love the community that come in. I make enough money to support my children and eat out a couple of times a week.

And I thought it was a really cool example of like more spaces and sites for her means more stress which means less time with her children which means less time eating out with her husband and ultimately those are the things that keep her happy and she'd really like she'd really considered her life and what makes her happy and it was it was a real moment for me to recognize like we don't consider the assets around us that make us really happy if i was to say to you like what are the three things knowns that really give you joy what would you say um when it's my family but i feel like you have to set first uh when it's not cloudy when it's really sunny outside fresh air and my boyfriend okay so all free all free yeah

all free things and all things that give like all that we want as humans is to love and to be loved yeah so like why are we chasing these other dreams of like acquiring all this stuff to be successful like it's it's more about what you love love you know they say love what you do and you'll never work a day in your life I agree with this and I do grieve wholeheartedly and fundamentally and I was kind of talking about this before but how I've learned that the things in life that make you happy are all the things that when I was younger I was like no I always wanted to be that like live fast die young party I'll sleep when I'm dead like at uni I was like I don't need to tidy my room I was life's too short you know I was like so like that yeah and now as I've got older I'm like actually if you get up really early in the

morning and you like exercise and like you do just feel a million all the things that are really really boring and again don't cost anything do make you happier but on the flip side we live in this catholic society where there is a threshold of money that you need to earn so that you're above the poverty line and then you can feel like you can think about other things but then there's also this other element of you know as women especially if we're able to create financial autonomy and earn a lot more money we can actually do I mean it depends on what the person is but now I used to hate the idea of saying that I ever wanted to be rich because I thought it was really unladylike and I should never say that and now I'm like actually I would like to make a lot of money

because I can plug that money into things I think are really important like if I don't feel like I can trust in the systems or the legislation to do stuff, maybe I can do that myself by making a career that makes that much money. Yeah. And I think that's exactly, to go back to what we were talking about before, what we have the responsibility to do, especially as women that were privileged enough to go to university and have that education and for me to live with my parents that live just outside London you know I see that as a huge privilege and I have just as brands have as they become more successful I believe there's a duty and a responsibility when I get to a position to hire in people from backgrounds that perhaps hadn't had that access or spend time you know crafting programs or initiatives that can give women that don't have those luxuries, time, space, financial support, to come into businesses like the ones that I work in.

Most importantly, because you need a diverse workforce to create work for the diverse community that we're trying to reach, number one, like it's fundamentally useful for every business to have, you know, it's bizarre that people are like, we have these quotas. It's like, you need a diverse workforce to be able to represent what the UK is, which is an incredibly cosmopolitan, colourful, diverse, brilliant, you know, nation. But I do think that women and men, you know, more men, to be honest, because more of them are in more successful positions, a duty to prioritize that. And I don't think it's been done enough.

No. And I do feel like women, maybe because it is so late for us, I mean, it's only in the last 50 or so years that women really have been coming to the fore and the forefront of these industries. And I do think that that shift has coincided with women taking the lead and I wonder if that's because I went to talk the other day that my boyfriend actually I'm sure you won't mind me saying he's so sweet so he did um it was for where he works but he held like tackling the gender investment gap and he had five women on a panel he just introduced it and one of the women was like do you know what um we need to just hire more women even if they're not good enough for the job because so many men have got into those positions through nepotism yeah or because they had the right

qualifications or because they went to the right school so she was like i actually don't care now if i'm hiring women but if because she was like there just simply aren't enough women yeah i agree who haven't got there so she was like i will hire someone even if they're worse than the man now because we have to really change the system and the reason that i'm bringing this up is because i think right now women who are at the top mostly have got there with a lot of struggle yeah so they have a different attitude towards it's really they really felt they've earned it and they really want to kind of play the rapper but like give back to the people who haven't been given that accessibility the only way to shift it for the next generation is to pay it forward. It's the only way, whether it's women, you know, whether it's any of the kind of minority groups that exist.

I think if you're in a position of responsibility or leadership, you have a duty to bring people in that can diversify your workforce. It has to be done and if they are not as strong training and support and chances need to be taken I really believe you can train people in pretty much any skill you can't train people in work ethic and I think often you'll find that people that have not had as many chances as others have a much stronger more resilient work ethic. I want to ask you we've talked about kind of all your successes and everything's gone really well have there been any moments in your career when you've kind of felt really concerned that you didn't know what your next term was going to be or you didn't know

if you were going to make it through or what have been some of the bigger hurdles or has it been quite smooth sailing? Definitely has not been smooth sailing and I would say right now is probably the most challenging part of my career um which actually I've never said out loud till now um I've sort of gone from job to job and I've been fortunate enough to have a job in place by the time I've I've left the one before or kind of felt that my time was ending or been poached from a company and moved across very smoothly. And when I left Bumble at the back end of last year, I didn't have a job to go to. I'd been, you know, very mindful with my money so I could afford to take a couple of months off. And now I'm consulting for various different businesses. But to go from working, you know, for over 10 years, you know, every day, and I worked every day when I was at Bumba especially, to kind of having a lot of free time to curate your own sort of business for the time being and navigate. Do I want to go into another big brand?

Do I want to start my own business? You know, I can probably consult for a few months, but really my joy and my real passion comes from leading a team and working in that environment. And I think that can be quite unsettling, as it is for anyone that doesn't know what their next move is. And I remember calling one of my best friends, Tara, who left her job at a big sports agency a couple of years ago. Now she a gardener um and and saying to her did you feel a bit lost and a bit a bit isolated and and you know after working with lots of brilliant team members all day every day and really getting that validation and love in the office to not having any you know we were saying this the other day I was like going down to my

coffee shop lady being like how was your your day? How was your evening? And she was like, literally go away. I have so much stuff to do. I don't want to talk to you. But I think it's taken a lot of training from my side to use this time really carefully to make sure that my next move is beneficial to my career. But on the flip side of that, having the financial pressure of knowing that I pretty much have to be or have to have made a decision by the end of the month. And I think a lot of people go through that struggle and that concern that perhaps I need to take a job that is less than the step forward that I want. We spoke earlier, I'm, you know, in some exciting stages

for some opportunities I really want, but they also might not come off. And I have to be ready and aware of that. And I'm sort of putting in place this plan B even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily Jackpots, a chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario.

Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com. Please play responsibly. A lot of the time in this podcast, normally when I'm talking about finance, I speak to people who talk about how women are very risk averse. But it sounds like within your career, something that's paid off is the fact that you are willing to take risks. And as you just said, you haven't had a very linear trajectory when it comes to work

which I do think is kind of the modern millennial way like we don't tend to come out of uni and sit in a job and stay in it for the rest of our lives but I do think that you kind of know when good things come to an end and when you're ready to move on and I think that's maybe a really really one of the most important things to know when it comes to careers because I think especially as women we think well I'm so lucky to be here. And if I only just stay another four years and maybe they'll give me a longer maternity leave. So I better not up and leave in case I want to. Do you know what I mean?

And I think that mindset can be actually what holds people back from traversing into a whole new arena. And was that something that you thought about consciously or did the opportunities just arise that allowed you to kind of drop off? Because that is quite unusual, but it's evidently done you very well. And I actually think sometimes people would do better just walking away from something. You do get stuck in the safety of it.

As you say right now, the uncomfortability you're feeling is because you feel like you haven't got a stable income and you haven't got the safety of a community. I think the courage of your conviction is one of the most powerful tools that you can have. I was really, really fortunate when I was younger to have parents that were like, you can do anything. And I was like, I want to play badminton.

And they were like, let's go play for the county. Or I was like, I want to be a dancer. And they were like, go and do ballet. And then I got kicked out after the second session because they were like you're so shit but they were really really supportive and kind of instilled this mindset in me that like the only thing that is stopping you is you and the only limit you set yourself is yourself so every role I went into and this was especially relevant when I was in Los Angeles I really believed that I had a lot to offer you know I have a lot of had a lot to offer. You know,

I have a lot of things, a lot of issues like everybody else. But in this particular time of my life, I really thought I was really good at what I did. And I really believed in that. And I, you know, I took a one-way flight to LA and I didn't know anybody in the city. And I, my parents didn't give me any money. I took out a credit card and was like, okay, I've got a five grand max. I'm going to see how I go. And the clients that I worked with and worked for, they believed in me because I think I believed in myself. So when they'd be like, oh, what should I do, you know, with this article or this comment's come out or I'm launching this brand, you know, what should the comm strategy look like? I really believed that I was right.

And I'd had this incredible training at Freud's and this sort of brilliant experience there because I've been exposed to so many senior thinkers, which I think a lot of junior people don't do. They don't go up to, you know, the vice presidents or the CEOs or the directors and say like, hey, I know you're really busy on this pitch, but I really respect you. And I was wondering if you could come and have a coffee with me for 15 minutes. Everybody says yes. But we just don't have the confidence to do it because

we feel inferior. In actual fact, you're not inferior. You're just less experienced. And the only way you're going to get that experience is by taking advantage of all of the knowledge around you. So Matt's very good at that. He does the exact same thing at work. He's constantly speaking, getting in meetings with people. And the weird thing I've realised is being freelance, weirdly, you do that because you have to because you have no colleagues. So you have to find people who are like mentors and be like, how do I do this? How did you get there?

And it's not got that same environment where I think you're right. In a workplace environment, you feel like, right, I'm the little person here. I can't go. That's going to be really embarrassing. I'm just going to keep my head down and I'll slowly work my way up. But then you're not really setting yourself apart because everyone's the same cog in the system. So I do think that's really important. I do want to ask you a bit about your publicist days in LA because I feel like you had some very fun clients. Can you tell us about them or not? Yeah, sure. So

yeah, so I moved to LA. I googled a bunch of PR agencies like the stuff I did was really easy like honestly anybody could do this like there was no special maneuver there was no contact I had there was no cash I had in the bank I went to LA and I I said I worked at Freud's and and this is what I did and these are the accounts I worked when I was lucky enough I keep saying I was lucky enough. I know. I worked, I'll try again. I worked on accounts at Floyd's like Airbnb and Vodafone and Burberry's London Fashion Week. So I had loads of kind of big name clients.

Yes, I was doing, you know, very junior stuff for them, but that kind of caught the attention of this woman that owned this agency. She was British. She moved out when she was 25. And I sat in a conference room with her and, you know, she was like, why should I hire you? And I was like, well, why not?

I mean, I'll work really, really hard and I'm quite nice. You know, I'm not one of these like bitchy publicist people that, you know, sadly, the industry gets a reputation for. I love to work. I really want a really robust career. And, you know, sadly, the industry gets a reputation for. I love to work.

I really want a really robust career. And, yeah, I'm keen to do anything. And she was like, yeah, OK, fine, you're great. Like, I'll sign your visa and I'll pay for you. I think, yeah, and I think she had been around a lot of people that work for the agency that were really looking to befriend the clients or get to the parties and really I was just like I just want to learn and I want to grow my experience and so the first the first client I had um I'll actually send this to him was Gene Simmons who um was the front man in Kiss um I actually didn't know who Kiss were which is really embarrassing she was like they're a rock band They're one of the biggest rock bands in the world.

And he has just bought a football team called the LA Kiss out in Anaheim. And you have to go and launch it in Orlando at a press conference. And I was like, right, is this football with your fee? Or they were like, no, it's American football. So it's with your hands. So firstly, I was like, cool, don't know the sport. Cool, don't really know what he's like or what he does. and I remember my director at the time I was like an account manager or senior

manager he was like um oh I've got you know my wife's having a baby so like can you just go on your own and this was like week two in LA I remember being so anxious calling my mum being like I can't go to Orlando on my own to meet this guy and to run a press conference and then a red carpet and then a dinner with the whole of Kiss. And my mum was like, you're just going to have to wing it. You're going to have to say you can do it and you're going to have to make it up. So I start Googling like press conference, how many people at a press conference. I literally just taught myself. Dawn, who was the CEO and my complete inspiration in life, was actually on maternity leave.

So she'd gone. So she'd hired me and gone. So this amazing woman that I'd like flown on this way for wasn't even there. And I rocked up in Orlando. I remember we were at this hotel and there was a Zumba convention. There was a Christian convention. And there was a pet convention. And then there was this this conference

and I managed to get a press list off a friend of mine who does global PR and I did my bunch of research and I wrote these documents that I'd seen my my bosses doing and at Freud's and I rocked half my I remember my mum said just make him like you just make him respect you go in with an opinion and you know you're good at what you do you've been around loads of senior leadership and so I just did and I went and met them all I shook all their hands I was like this is what I do this is what I think you guys should do like this is how we're gonna I knew the format for doing this stuff so like populating it with American football or this band you know I kind of knew how it worked. And then I just kind of used my

common sense, which really most jobs are about. Like, if someone puts their hand up in a press conference room, you want to make sure that they're CNN or CNBC rather than some tiny Anaheim newspaper. Or if someone says, I want to have 30 minutes with Gene Simmons backstage to ask him about it. You know, my common sense was saying, okay, let's try and get it on camera because we know that broadcast is better than digital at the time. And so I just started making these decisions. And as I made more decisions, more people just listened. And it was a really interesting experience in terms of, like, if you can convince yourself just to do the best that you can and you can put yourself in an environment almost like, you know, you make it up and you're like, I have to do this.

It can only go one way. And then from there it sort of, it all went really well and we did the event and Jean fed back, you know, we think Louise is great and she was really professional and I think professionality is a big piece of this. And then I just started getting other clients. I worked with Paris Hilton and Nikki Hilton, Cesar Millan, he was a dog whisperer, he's massive in America. Was he on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills once?

I'm sure there was a dog whisperer on there. Probably, he is the mecca of dog whisperers. So yeah, worked with Afrojack and a bunch of other DJs launching their albums and yeah, sort of grew my confidence through all of those different roles. And I think that the talent that I worked with, we had a really mutually respectful relationship because I always had my professional hat on.

I never was like, let's be friends. It was always, I'm here to do a job. I'm going to do the best job possible. And I think that attitude is definitely what helped me kind of grow a reputation of that. I think you're so right about the idea of being thrown into the deep end a bit that I think you're so right about the idea of being thrown into the deep end a bit because I think what can happen in jobs is there's so much hand-holding

and so much not necessarily hand-holding but you kind of because we get so fearful of doing something you never know if you can do it if you're not trying to do it and on a very small scale the kind of same thing happened to me with the podcast I was like I really want to do it I don't know how to do it and then I just when they said I was going to do it and I was dead I had to do it so I had to buy a microphone set it up and then it was fine and now I'm good at it and now people ask me how to do it but it wasn't until I just was like well I've just got to fucking do it that I didn't get it out there and I think that's one thing with like careers and things people do ask for lots of advice like we said it's good to ask for advice but sometimes

you've just got to figure it out on your own and I get people messaging me all the time even about like my book club and I kind of think like just part of the learning and part of making it yours is working out how you're going to do it because if you kind of copy someone else's format or you try and look at how something's been done before it probably won't it might not end up being as good as it would be as if you kind of put it and figure it out yourself yeah and then you'll imbue it with your own kind of personality. But I think we get scared sometimes that we've got to do it.

And I think this is part of the social media kind of YouTube culture where there's a kind of tutorial for everything in the world. And everyone wants to know exactly where your outfit's from and exactly how you did that. And I think that you've sometimes

just got to wing it. Yeah. And do it the old fashioned way and like not be so scared of things going wrong. Because in a lot of people's careers, and especially for me, like, so many things went wrong before they went right. And then when they go right, they just stick. But people only ever see the bit that it goes right, obviously.

Because that's what people talk about. Because that's the success. Because you're not going to see, obviously, if someone writes loads of books, you're only ever going to see the book that gets published. So you'll be like, oh, my God, they got published. But for all you know, that's the 20th book they've written. I mean, I did a hundred things wrong also when I was in L.A. Like, it's a, I really should, I'll send this to Dawn, but like I really should thank her for not firing me.

Like, as much as having loads of success and figuring it out in the end, there are always going to be ruptures along the way. And actually your attitude to repairing that is so much more important. I remember when I had a team, when I was working with the team at Bumble, saying to them, like, it's so much better if you come in and you say, okay, I've really messed up this event. This is what I did that was wrong. This is what I've learned. And I think this is what we'll do next time.

There would never be a problem if someone's attitude is like that. I think when there's no accountability or responsibility taken for certain action that's when it becomes tricky because you're always wanting people to learn that's all that this life is it's just like banking learnings that's why when we mess up it's so brilliant because it's like you would never have learned that if it had just been been plain sailing you're right and I know this is kind of like a different thing but there's a saying when it's like the only true apology is change behavior and when it it comes to mistakes and things, I do think that's the same kind of thing. Because if you bury your head in the sand, you're like, well, I'm just not going to deal with that now. You never have a chance to grow. It's kind of off topic.

But I think the same with that cancel culture. I think we all get very scared of making mistakes because the stakes seem very high if you get something wrong. But if we don't allow for each other to make mistakes, what we're saying is you either get it right first time or you're out. And that's not how it should be. It should be that you get, like, you move ten steps forward, you go five steps sideways, and then you go forward again. And it's never linear progression. But I don't think that's the story we get told these days when it comes to success. And everything is, like, the stories we get fed just seem, I feel this is so silly.

I'm 25. I'm 26 on friday and i'm like oh fuck i've missed my window like i feel like you know how there's like 30 under 30 lists and they do the like yeah but all of those 30 under 30 lists are curated by people who know people that work at those publications yeah but do you know what i mean think in creative industries you feel like you've got why don't we do our own 30 under 30 for your podcast let's take action and change it and pay it forward honestly all of these things are manipulated and considered and they're very smart about who they pick i don't think we should be worrying about that no i don't

want to be worrying about either but i think that we all uh are also like looking up to where to get the this right idea of what success is and actually I think the why I want to talk to you as well is because I think it's so interesting that you like walked away from Bamba which probably at that time was like your biggest career and then now you're like I've got another thing happening and then even at the bottom of all of that when I've asked you like how your work was your success was never driven from the fact of like as you said the label of your job it was the fact that everything together worked nicely and made you happy I'm I'm such an advocate for like believing that like life's happiness is just a collection of brilliant moments so when I was working at Bumble it was like well this is

such a brilliant day because we've just come up with this amazing campaign and Jamila Jamil's going to be in it and we're going to help loads of women that feel lonely and the team are really inspired. And then we go for after work drinks and then I'd get home and be like, that was a good day. And like that for me, when I look back now sat here, I don't look at my job title or like the interviews that I did. It's about all of those moments that we managed to help all these other women and men find each other. And in the end, I'd sort of felt like I'd done everything I could for the company. And the next kind of wave of leaders needed to come in and take that baton and take it forward.

And that's why right now is a really interesting time for me because so many people have been like, can't wait to see what you do next. And I'm I'm like oh my god what if I just want to go and work in the shampoo shop opposite my house like will people be like oh my god that's what she did or will people be like that's really cool she just ended up doing what made her happy I think that's I guess one of the things we haven't spoken about as well is that we unfortunately we forget to look inside us as cringe that sounds and we base a lot of our um ideas around success around how other people are looking at us yeah so like whatever label that can be so for instance i might cringe if someone calls me an influencer but if someone calls me a podcaster i think it's

really cool they're kind of one and the same and i do both things but i'm so influenced by how i think someone else perceives me if i get a taxi i never say i'm an influencer so i'll say oh i work in journalism or something but if i'm at a specific party where I know that they might think an influencer is cool, I'll say that. Like I constantly adapt. And we're much too worried about what other people think. Because realistically, I have the best job. I love my job. I've done things I could never believe I could do.

Things I would never believe that I could speak to. And I never once hate my job. But then all of a sudden someone asks me what I do and I balk. I like oh my god I didn't want to say whereas I wish we could just be like I don't know I think it's the question needs to be rephrased like I think we look at things in the wrong way yeah but also we it's almost like we just project our own version of stories onto everyone else instead of look at reality so like I'll read an article on business of fashion about influencers and it will define them as x, as people that are launching podcasts, that have fashion brands, that do capsule collections. And then that will be the story that I carry forward.

And when I talk to you or a friend of mine, I'll be like, because you work in this industry. That's just a story that I've taken from someone else's story that's probably come from someone else. Yeah. So it's almost like we all need to try and just like park all of that really I mean I love the label of an entrepreneur I think in essence it's someone that starts something and innovating and trying to to start something new in their own space and that's that's what you're doing and you've done you decided you wanted to do a podcast about relevant and really cool issues you did it and it's successful like really that's just what an entrepreneur is.

Well, nowadays, you know, when we think of entrepreneurs, we think of Emily Weiss at Glossier or Mark Zuckerberg. Why do these people have to be so successful? Yeah. It's just someone that does something and it's brilliant. Yeah, it's so true. I do think, yeah, the definition of success as well, I do think it's because of the internet and social media and things.

But we need to kind of like strip it back and not have such big because also it kind of feels like maybe this is London maybe this ministry but I feel like everyone is doing amazingly like I can't I feel like I can't turn my head for another person being wildly successful and I think we forget to look at in of ourselves and just go oh my god look what I did like you said that amazing day at work when you're at Bumble and be like that was amazing for me we never really know what anyone else is doing

but we do just make up all these stories in our heads that I love being on the tube and I'll see women in their suits and I'm like I bet she's a lawyer I wonder what kind of law she does

probably say in my head I'll be like shit I just made it up yeah it's so true but that's also I mean I do that still

all the time as well like you know you see someone I see someone do a keynote speech I'm like oh I really want to be like her and then she's like I'm the VP of marketing for a brand very similar to the brand that I worked for and I'm like oh is that what I look like yeah because I feel like a 12 year old that just like you know got got lucky sometimes but actually I don't know I feel like sometimes that way of thinking pushes us forward and inspires ourselves like to do better but I think going back to what you're talking about in terms of like defining success and career trajectory like I think it's really important that you take stock about what makes you happy and what your hobbies are think about

what you do in your free time that makes you feel really really good if it's playing tennis or if it's writing music or if it's reading and actually try not to follow this traditional kind of archaic educational system which doesn't even teach us about moral issues or societal issues or kindness or any of those those pieces and and try and lean into that and then look at the industries that you can employ that kind of skill set in. As opposed to think you have to go and be a, you know, a marketeer or a doctor or a banker. Because there are so many opportunities. Yeah, I completely agree. And also, but the other thing is, in this generation is everything becomes a side hustle.

So I start doing something and the minute I start doing it, I'm like, I wonder how I can monetize this. Like, how can I turn this into a business? And that gets really scary. But you're so right. Exactly what you just said then is exactly how, same as you when I was growing up no idea what careers you could have I just thought everything you would just be a teacher so if you did chemistry you'd be a chemistry teacher you'd be an English teacher same as you again went to that careers counselling um thing and they were like oh you're gonna be my mum was a nurse my dad was a doctor

they're like you'd probably be a nurse or a doctor so I then was like oh right so I was like doing four a levels trying to like get all the sciences in but how weird that we trust those people I know and it didn't make any sense and and if I if only I'd known the careers you could have now like I love presenting I love talking I wish someone at school was like you don't stop talking you should maybe think about getting presenting but instead I'm all my paid all my school reports would be like she does not shut up like they'd be like really really smart doesn't stop talking like not one point. And sometimes I think you've got to look

in the most obvious places to find the answer. So it'll be staring you right in the face that you might be amazing at doing your makeup every day and then going into the corporate job and be like, I fucking hate this. And then maybe you should, do you know? And I think there's, I think I'd rather, in that scenario, say you're amazing at makeup,

working in a corporate job that you hated, I'd rather go and work in a makeup store, or work my way up in a makeup brand, do something to do with makeup, than go to work every day in a job that you hated i'd rather go and work on a makeup store work my way up in a makeup brand do something to do with makeup than go today to work every day in a job that i hated that people around me were like wow she's really successful because as we just said that isn't what success is i think as louise has said your dream job isn't about the job it's about the job that creates the dream yeah yeah but also you can you can really craft roles for yourself. And I also think that is often forgotten. Like, even when I remember when I started in LA, you know, the job was pretty straightforward. It was like do reports, pitch in whatever we were launching brand wise or

collection wise, you know, take all that content, put in another report, send it to the client. And then suddenly I started thinking, like, why aren't we offering marketing services? And, you know, why aren't we offering crisis communication support? All of these people do things wrong all the time. Like, these are really great revenue streams. And then we can offer an integrated approach. Like, that just makes sense in my head and and instead of just being like okay this is my job and this is exactly what I have to do if you can take to the

senior team like hey this is a long shot and you don't have to listen to me but I thought maybe this would be useful because this client mentioned that they didn't have it and actually using every day and access as an opportunity any leader or any business leader wants to hear like hey have you thought about this because we could probably make some more money. And even if it's the wrong answer, that attitude, like I would encourage anyone who is in a junior position listening to this to go to their boss tomorrow and have a think tonight, like what else can we offer our clients or, you know, from a services point of view, go with an idea to your boss and I will pay 50 quid to anyone that is listening to this that

the boss comes back and says that's a shit idea any boss would be like that's a great attitude like let's have a meeting about it but people just don't do it because it just hasn't been done yeah and everyone's everyone starts somewhere it's a bit like in the gym when you think like oh my god I'm never gonna be able to do it but the guy that's lifting whatever he didn't walk into the gym and lift that weight the first time yeah you've got to train up and you've got to believe in yourself and also i think new fresh voices people doing it more but we do have ideas so i'll say something to someone that i think is more senior than me not even necessarily in my industry but just in life and think that they'll be like obviously and i've never thought of that before

we do all have really different perspectives on things and sometimes you might think your voice isn't important but a lot of the time, like you just said, it could actually be exactly what someone needs. There's also, I totally agree with that, Nones, and there's also the point that there is space for everyone. I think there's a lot of fear and angst at the moment, especially with the younger generations of like, there are, you know, on Instagram,

you're just completely bombarded with successful people, you know, doing posts or getting paid for things. And it looks seemingly like everyone's getting paid to do everything. And if you're sitting on Instagram with 100 followers, you're like, but how am I going to launch this jewelry business from my bedroom when so-and-so has a jewelry business

and has a million followers? And I think there's something to remember that like every single year, there's a new generation of consumers and there's a new type of consumer and there's something to remember that like every single year there's a new generation of consumers and there's a new type of consumer and there's a new need and there really is space for everyone there are millions of millions and millions of brilliant small businesses and there's a demographic for everyone and there's a specific you know pay price point for everyone and I really believe that like we have to keep generating ideas to innovate and drive our society forward so never

feel like oh but I've only got 50 followers and I want to be you know an Instagram person for these reasons and I'm not going to make it if you have enough passion enough focus and you understand your audience their profile why they purchase who your competitors are what that landscape looks like in terms of monetization you just have to do your due diligence and you can get a lot of that information either online or from other accounts. But I really believe as long as we are all open, there is and there should be space for everyone to create. Yeah, and another thing that I've learned

is that you're never more successful than when you're only focusing on your own success because if you waste time and energy looking at what other people are doing as in thinking like, well, I'm never going to be like her or I'm never going to be able to do that. Well, they've done that. Okay, well, I'll think of something else. If you actually don't, if you try and not focus too much on what anyone people are doing as in thinking like, well, I'm never going to be like her or I'm never going to be able to do that. Well, they've done that. Okay, well, I'll think of something else.

If you actually don't, if you try not to focus too much on what anyone else is doing, you just focus on your own thing, it will take off and it'll get traction. But as you say, especially as women,

we're like pitted against each other and we can't see the wood from the trees because we're like, but actually, if you just focus, you'll never do something. Someone could start a podcast called Adulting

and invite the same guest on and they'd have a completely different conversation. It doesn't really matter you're not you're always going to be different from someone else and you'll always have something valuable to say i completely agree with that and you do just have to like focus on yourself and and success to someone it's always different it always means something else yeah it's completely relative but and also it's relative to your upbringing and your experiences in life. And that's why I think Instagram can be brilliant because it can really inspire you in ways through content that perhaps you haven't had access to see before from wherever you're from around the world.

But I think this sort of anxiety and this fear of like, ah, there's so much great stuff out there. Like, will I find a place? You have to just get rid of that entire sentence. There is a place for everybody on this planet. Totally. Sounds very profound. I didn't mean it like that. I mean more, there is space for more creative ideas consistently.

Consumers will consume forever. And it's just about really dialing into what you're offering, why you're passionate about it. And I really believe that anyone can be successful amazing I actually think that's been a very uplifting and motivating chat should we go and start a business now I think so so if people want to find out more about you do is there any any way that they can visit you I mean I'm reluctant to give my address but if you know where the shampoo shop is come and visit me. I mean obviously obviously I'm on Instagram. If yeah if anyone needs any advice who is struggling kind of in the midst of their career I am more than happy to kind of jump on the phone with people. I do that

quite regularly. Yeah Louise Troen. I do not have a website because I don't need one. But yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much. And I look forward to seeing what your next move is. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for listening, guys. Bye. Bye. We'll be right back. I do. Daily Jackpots. A chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca.

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