Adulting - #6 Love, Sex & Being Single with Lucy Vine

Episode Date: April 29, 2018

In this episode I talk to journalist and author Lucy Vine. We discuss sex, relationships and being single. We could not stop laughing and this is actually only about half of what we recorded because of the aforementioned.... I really hope you enjoy it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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what we're doing adulting adulting I'm definitely putting that in there. Adulting, adulting. Okay, hello and welcome to Adulting, the podcast where I try to unpick all the difficult things that you're supposed to know but really feel like you don't. And today I have with me author, journalist, fantastic coat wearer Lucy Vine. Yeah, especially that last one. Yeah, she's got

a great coat on which before she arrived she made me promise that I was going to compliment her on, which I did. Voluntarily and... I was like, I need a wee, but you need to compliment me first. I'm glad we're giving this really important information. Do you want to tell us a bit about yourself, Lucy? So I've had a wee today. Good. Always important start. No, yeah, so I am Lucy.

Really covering so much ground. Lucy Vine. No, so I am an author. That's why I'm here, right? Yes. Because I wrote a book last year, or in 2016, called Hot Mess. It came out last summer. And then my second book just came out in March called What Fresh Hell.

And I'm just in the middle of writing my third book. And I've managed to whisk you away from writing. Yes, you have. But only because you're so lovely and special. Thank you. That's what my mum says. So yeah, Lucy's book Hot Mess was actually the first ever book that I did at Book Club.

Yay. And I was so excited when you replied because I was just tagging you and stuff on Instagram really sycophantically and then you replied to me and I was at Book Club. Seconds later. and we were like insta-storing like hi Lucy but it's such a good book because it's one of one of the first where I've read we were talking about this where oh I don't know can we give away the ending yeah of course whatever okay guys if

you haven't read it skip 15 seconds now so at the end the protagonist Ellie doesn't end up with anyone and the kind of the plot of the story is that you don't have to have a man or have a relationship to be a happy individual it is a heteronormative relationship situation going on yeah um and i think that's just something we don't see a lot and as you're growing up i think we need to be told that more yeah because there's such i think especially with women like we're told that the happily ever after has to involve you know Prince Charming yeah you always get saved yeah and that you you won't be content or fulfilled uh in your life until you have like found the man yeah but that's bullshit well it is absolute crap and it's annoying because I think it's like a self-perpetuating thing where

you actually people put it's not that that is going to fix your problems but because we put so much we're taught from like from the age of conception basically when you watch disney films and things that your life is going to be together when you find a man or a woman or whatever yeah and then that means that you kind of self-fulfillingly make that happen because you kind of fit your life around finding a partner yeah but i so firmly believe that you need to be happy and figure things out for yourself before you can be in a fulfilling relationship. Yeah. If you ever want to be in a relationship at all.

Yeah. But that's an option that I think people don't explore. Yeah. You don't even realise that you could just not be in a relationship. Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing. I think we're a bit further ahead when it comes to something like children. Yeah.

I think people are a bit more like, oh, wait, I don't have to have children. I don't have to commit my whole entire existence to another tiny person. Do you know what I think the weirdest thing is? You know when people say it's selfish not to have children. I don't have to commit my whole entire existence to another tiny person. Do you know what I think the weirdest thing is? You know when people say it's selfish not to have children? That's so weird, isn't it? That doesn't make sense. It's the opposite to me. Because surely that's selfless

because you're not bringing a little person to the world that's going to, one, take up more space. Exactly, yeah. Ruin the environment a bit more. I know. And also you're definitely going to fuck them up because there's a parent you inevitably do. Exactly, yeah.

Which is one of my biggest fears every day you might bring hitler into the world yeah every day at some point in the day i'll think oh my god when i have a child i'm gonna try and be really forward thinking i'll like try to make them eat really healthy and then i'll give them an eating disorder this is the trouble i'm concerned about this on a daily basis and my friends like no you're not having children i'm like but i am worried about it now right now i know like we're having lunch this is it and the world is so broken and fucked up yeah like how are you how do you explain the world to your child this is donald trump yeah exactly we've given him power yeah it's very awkward yeah i don't know if you guys can tell but we're already really over excited

it feels like we're drunk yeah no it does drunk on oat milk oh we should oh my god your podcast should just be drunk uh conversations i mean we could get some wine is it 12 o'clock yet yeah it's 20 past 12 it's no problem it's absolutely acceptable on a tuesday oh yeah i got drunk last night on a monday did you yeah it was weird so did i i didn't mean to i was like i'm definitely'm definitely not going to drink and then we got there and they gave us a Prosecco and I didn't say no. Nice, nice. And they were like,

do you want a cocktail? And I said yes. How are you supposed to say no to those things? I don't know. I literally don't know. If any, I just need one other person to drink

or slightly more encouragement and I will drink. If no one's drinking, I might potentially say no. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I like to group drink. But if there's one other person and I'm like,

oh, I'll drink with you, don't worry, it's fine. Yeah, because it's all selfless. Just to keep them company. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I like to group drink. But if there's one other person I'm like, oh, I'll drink with you, don't worry, it's fine. Yeah, because it's not that bad for them. Just to keep them company. Yeah, it's actually selfless, really. Exactly, you're doing the world a favour. Yeah, I think so. So back to relationships. Oh, yeah.

I think that relationships through the ages is quite a fun thing to talk about. So what was your first ever relationship? How old were you? Oh, well, it's difficult to sort of um define because I didn't really have any proper boyfriends at school I did you not have them when you were like four everyone oh yeah me too my whole year group yeah oh yeah me too and on a Friday night we'd pass around a note being like who you're gonna snog at the disco tonight do you

want to notes were the bane of my existence I had this boyfriend when I was younger and I'd written a note to my friend Livy in maths that said nice I was going to my boyfriend's house the first time that weekend I was like I'm gonna go all the way and French kiss him but the French kiss him part was on a separate post-it note and it was in my pencil case and my mum were on the way to school and she pulled over and she went no we need to speak before you go to um Angus's house this weekend angst if you're listening shout out um she was like i found this note from you that you've given to her and i was there like what the fuck is she on about i was like mom i literally was just gonna kiss my mind i don't know and she was like what i was like what are you talking about she's like what are you talking about and i was like i'm

gonna go all the way and we're gonna french kiss yeah and then and then she was like okay have a lovely weekend bye let's not have that conversation anymore but she yeah i think she thought and she was so stressed yeah but my actually my first kiss was actually was before that was one guy should i just name one guy hi max you've been listening let's just list all the boys it was next to our team years that we snogged and we kissed and it was so sloppy it's literally you know when people say it's a washing machine, I genuinely, we put our tongues in and went round in circles. Slobber all down my face.

And I think I almost wanted to cry. And I laughed and I was like, that was disgusting. We broke up. I was actually 12 when I first put my tongue in another boy's mouth. Nice. I think I was 13, 14. And I was in a cupboard in a classroom. In a classroom?

Yeah, in like a broom cupboard. Nice. In our classroom. And the whole of my form was standing outside the cupboard waiting for me and Erin to finish snogging. And then Jodie came running in and was like, give it a mark out of 10. And I was like, minus 72. Was it a dare?

Or were you going out? No, I think we were boyfriend and girlfriend. But I mean, all of my... I had like boyfriends at school, but they were all just like a couple of weeks. So I was, yeah. You're dumped. I was a late bloomer to kissing, so everyone did it at prep school, lol. I mean, I didn't do anything else.

No. Until I was like 32. Well, everyone else had already kissed because they were like, they were all borders. So you're waiting to lose my virginity. So that classic, I'm just waiting for the one, aren't you really? Yeah. Yeah. Celibacy is key. I mean, it for the one. Aren't you really? Yeah. Yeah, celibacy is key.

I mean, it's the only real way to avoid pregnancy. Right. Celibacy. So any lessons out there, it's the best way forward, really. Absolutely. Yeah. No contraception is... Just never have sex.

Yeah, never. You don't need it. It's fine. Sorry, carry on. So, so... So yeah, all my girlfriends used to like snog the boys after school because it was a boarding school but I had to go home so I missed all the snogging it was very sad so it took me yeah I was a late bloomer but I did have boyfriends we went out for like a week and I remember because

we were going out I then didn't want to see him obviously so I would hide inside during break times just to make sure that we didn't come across each other yeah and then I think the next time I saw him he was going out with someone else and he hadn't even discussed it with me he's been heartbroken yeah still waiting for that very dramatic I don't even think we text I think I had an algae chocolate a pink one but I just used to lose it for weeks on end because you didn't actually use it to text people you just like play a game on it oh you're younger than me I don't I didn't have a phone at school really yeah I know I was about 15 I guess 16 yeah we had them but we didn't I didn't have a phone at school really until I was about 15 I guess 16 yeah we had them but we didn't

I didn't know what to do with it no one really used them no okay Blackberries came in in like lowers and that was really cool because you'd have it

at lunch and it used to flash red when you had a message oh did you Nokia 3210 yep that was a classic I was so good at Snake

oh me too I used to have a Nokia 3210 even when they weren't used just to play Snake on just to be cool yeah at night. It was really cool.

I'd play it really late in my room. You're so cool. Thank you. I do get that a lot. I bet. But yeah, so that I think

was my first, oh no, my first ever boyfriend, sorry I lie, was Declan. I think I was about four. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah,

he used to call me an only four plaits. I might have been his dad that called me that. Yeah, I used to have four plaits and my son, he was four bats. Why did you have four plplats. My son is four-bats.

Why did you have four-plats? Explain this to me because I'm picturing something like, hey Arnold. My mum is clearly the meanest. Right, so you're going to die. So when I was little, my sisters called me the elderly duckling. It's very kind. Aww. But it has a nice ending.

That's what sisters are for though, isn't it? So I had a black tooth that I'd knocked. It was a milk tooth. It was broken. Yeah, it's black. Then I also had a lazy eye, so I had an eye patch. And I had glasses on top. Oh my God. And then I couldn't balance,

so I had leather boots with zips up the front all the way around to help me walk on straight lines. They help my ankles. I don't know why. And then, just to top it off, my mum would do my own two pigtails with two plaits coming out of each pigtail.

Yeah, it was great. And I was the snotty kid in the corner. Literally, I know. Isn't it? You should call Childline right now. And she called me Anoni. Like, how unfair is that? Have you spent your life spelling your name for people?

Yeah, I even get brands going one, one. One, space one. They write the words one, one. They catalyse both O's. As if my first name's one and my surname's one. And they're trying to work with me. Like, this is awkward. Yeah, deal breaker.

Yeah, literally. All the time. I have to spell my name on the phone, even though it's Lucy. It's like the easiest name ever. And so I always feel really bad for people who have had to spell complicated names. Yeah, in Starbucks when I was at uni,

there was one Starbucks, I just told them my name was Mary for the whole three years. Yeah. Just like, fuck it, Mary. They're like, hi, Mary. I'm like, hi, hi. Literally gone insane.

So relationships... You know how to edit these. Yeah, yeah, we're fine. It's just going gonna be laughing about 800 hours so when you're growing up like when you're younger relationships i think that i thought what was really cool getting a boyfriend wasn't it like all the cool girls had a boyfriend yeah and i didn't because i wasn't cool oh did you want one i was kind of a bit of a um uh like i was quite anti everybody else like so i was okay I'm just too cool for everybody else

no it's just I think it's because I have a twin sister oh so um and she is really cool still to this day much cooler than me and um and so I was quite at school I was quite like Becky's sister right I also have a brother who's only like 18 months older than me so he was in the year above us so I was either like Becky's sister or Phil's sister. Interesting. Are you identical twins? No, and we're really, really different. And she's just, she was also so much prettier and cooler.

We weren't at all, like hated each other growing up and used to have huge fights and avoid her at all costs. Yeah, maybe, but I've got another oldest, I'm the youngest of five that's heard of us but but i think it was just because we were so like everything had to happen at the same time she just kept winning she just gets slightly higher results and and just got were you competitive with each other or you just kind of work you didn't even compete that's what i was trying to get at like i just kind of like took myself out yeah because i knew i couldn't ever running i'm actually like that as a person at school

I would do this, if someone was better than me at something I'd be like okay, you can do it then and my mum would be like no no no you've got to go to try I'd be like can't, someone else do you can be in the choir as well it's not just one person, I'd be like no it's fine were you in the choir in the end or just now? I was for a bit and then one of my friends

I think once told me there was no space left so you had to audition and so I didn't go to the audition which is why I think I do you have such a beautiful voice I actually did used to be able to sing and I can't sing anymore it's really upsetting I don't know it just went away I just didn't sing it was a muscle and stuff that you've got to practice

well I tried to sing the other day I was like maybe I can still do it this is a funny story that's putting a lot of pressure on the story I broke my leg this summer that's funny it's funny a lot of pressure on the story i broke my leg this summer that's funny i mean that was it's funny because i did it in the gym which is really funny doing box jumps yeah the gym's unhealthy so i was really strong like tramadol painkillers and stuff and i decided to take up singing because i was like what else am i gonna do i can't go to the gym i'll sing again

so i'm literally high off my face on these like meds meds meds meds meds meds and I start I sing um new rules by Dua Lipa I put it on my Instagram I was my mum let me do it it's the crutches in the background I'm just singing into my my glasses on oh my god what is wrong with me I found it like three months ago and archived it I was like I'll show it to you later yeah it's really bad is it and everyone's like oh my god you're so talented it's so bad but i was so high and i was like it's such an emotional crossroads in my life like i'm meant to be into fitness i can't fucking walk i was like i'll sing oh my god it's awful i can't believe i put it up i even sent it to one of my friends before being like do you recognize she put that up she's like yes babe it's so good do it and i think she wants

you to fail there i was like okay i, okay, I'm going to do that. And I'm like, and it's literally me singing like, what are the new rules? Can you give us a note? I'm like, please. I can't even remember how the song goes.

You can't lead your listeners on like this, like, and just kind of tell them all about it. I can't even remember how new it goes, you know, and she's like, one, don't pick up the phone. Sing it,

I can't remember it. I can't remember the tune, you're going to have to sing it for me. No, I can't. That is very good though in relationships you should remember your lippers rules they're really good i think the fast ones don't pick up the phone one to pick up the phone yeah because he's drunk and alone no that's not actually me singing i can't take that well you're gonna have to prove it i can't i'm really sorry i can't i'm actually on spasticle from singing but they're very good balls to remember i don't know how we've

got onto this what were we talking about i feel like an hour and a half ago you asked a question oh right so you had yeah so you had your sister who was like the cool girl yeah yeah yeah so i was quite a late bloomer so yeah i was kissing like every boy in the year but isn't that so funny because you were allowed dolly talks about this you've read everything i know about love So I was quite a late bloomer. So yeah, I was kissing like every boy in the year. But isn't that so funny? Because you were allowed... Dolly talks about this. You've read everything I know about love, right? Yeah, I love it.

Me too. Oh no, it wasn't even Dolly. I think it was Richard Curtis's wife on Desert Island Dis. Emma. Do you listen to her? Yeah. Did you do it? Amazing.

And was her talking about snogging everyone? I can't remember. Somewhere. Anyway, we used to do this at school. I think that's a pretty British experience. You're just allowed to kiss everyone. And my mum, we were talking about this the other day. It's so funny. We had this old boys thing. And we used to go to this club that was really nice. Our're just allowed to kiss everyone and my mum we were talking about this the other day it's so funny we had this old boys thing and we used to go to this

club that was really nice like our school was in the middle of some set there was one club that we would go to and my mum was like I was parked outside coming to pick you up and she was like you were just snogging one of the boys George I think it was amazing and then I just turned around and she was like I was literally parked in the car with the lights on watching you and then your mum was there and then I just got in the car that hi mum and she was like oh I was like 19 oh okay yeah but she I don't think I'd realized she was there and I didn't think she'd seen and she was like and then I think she told me about it a few years later and I was like oh yeah we all just kiss each other I remember like I read reread my sort of 15 year old diary um recently I don't know she gives me like post-traumatic stress it's so funny because it is just kind of like um oh and I was so in love with this boy in year nine year ten called James and um we used to

snog occasionally but then I would also go off and snog loads of other people and he would go off and snog other people and then in my diary I'm like yeah but I'm pretty sure he loves me because we snog first oh makes complete sense yeah like we we got off with each other first and then he went and snog loads of other people, including loads of my friends. But that means that he loves me. Yeah. We're, like, true love.

It's amazing. But you never are going to have that kind of, those strong feelings and emotions like you do when you're a teenager. It's awful. I feel really sad that I will never love anything and feel so much like I did when I was a teenager. Do you know what I miss?

It's too much. Do you remember having a crush, and it was, like, painful? Like, do you remember one of the boys? I remember there was a boy, like, three years my best, and I was, teenager. Do you know what I miss? It's too much. Do you remember having a crush and it was like painful? Do you remember one of the boys? I remember there was a boy like three years my best and I was like actually in love with him. I used to add him on Facebook like every day to see if he'd like notice.

That was to like put myself, cancel it so that he'd like think about me. I was like this is a great school proof plan. That's so sad. So sad. There's no flaw in this plan. No flaw at all and I was like he'll think about me and then he'll probably speak to me at school. It never happened. But like it was like heart-wrenching like i'd walked past him in the dining room i was so in love with him i've never spoken to him i don't know he's actually probably really quite stupid no that's not what i find attractive but i just

found him unbelievable i've got the feeling of like during your crush i remember we all right like i heart pto please turn over, on your hand. Not somebody called PTO. PTO, yeah, I know him. And then you'd write it on the inside of your hand, all the boys like trying to, and you'd be like, no, no, you can't look. And they'd, like, open your hand and you'd be like,

why would you write it on the palm of your hand? And it would change every day as well, yeah. I know, I know. Every single day you'd fancy a different person. It made me feel really nostalgic. I know, it was really sad. But it's just like trying out being like it's like weird because you can't know what those feelings are so it's weird that we think we feel them so strongly i know well i mean i mean you kind of have to because you get older yeah more cynical they change no

but i think they change like you're like oh that't, I wasn't actually in love with that person. Yeah. Because I was 12. Yeah. Because I was four years old. And you think it's so serious. I know, I know. But I was always quite cynical even then. So, like, that, those diaries when I was 15, I think that was the most I've ever been romantic. Oh, really?

Because, like, that guy I really liked. Like, by sixth form, he was really interested in me. And I was like nope I'm going off to London in a couple of years I'm out of this place I grew up in quite a small small town and I was just like I can't wait to get away and then have you know proper and I remember thinking as a sort of 17 year old like oh there's no point me like getting into a relationship now like as if that would be serious like I'm a teenager that's so clever too self-aware I think that to have fun yeah that's so true i was like what's the point in getting with somebody now because i'm gonna

leave i think i was too obsessed with watching stuff like gossip girls so i was more it's better you've got to have those experiences i've missed out oh i don't know if you have because i do think that you're right there's no point getting into a relationship too young but also i think like i'm 24 i think this is almost the scariest age because this is where you could really do some really cool career stuff oh yeah and then you've got into like a relationship and you're like

oh god I think you should break up with your boyfriend okay well you heard it here first see you later if you're listening you're dumped

if you're not listening you're also dumped because you should really be championing my work so it's just rude so out of order

I actually didn't think I'd listen let's throw an apple I said you're never gonna know I'll wait outside apple day keeps the doctor away. Keeps the boyfriends away.

Yeah. She's just been throwing apples. This man has actually been throwing apples at boys since she was 10. It works. I am alone. But so that concept of being single never scared you then? No, it really didn't. I mean, I think there was a period where I kind of thought, I guess in my early 20s, I did sort of always just assume that I would get married. Because that, like we said before, like that is the messaging you get when you're young. And that is sort of the only option. But I've just had such so so doing so many fun things and I love every day

and I've got so many friends and family because I'm just so awesome all my friends but I don't think you should have to this is what I find really funny is that you have to

yeah but you have to explain that you don't have one other person by being like but I've got loads of other people because the funny thing is when people get into

a relationship often they lose their friends and sometimes their relationship with their families and it's funny that you can't have but I think there's an assumption and i and i i think honestly however many times i've explained it to my friends there are still a few of them that don't understand that i'm not lonely yeah they're still a bit like yeah but you're just saying that because you know you're on your own but it's even like i want to live on my own and everyone thinks

that's really weird i love being on my own i lived on my own for seven years and i've loved it i literally everyone's like you'll be so lonely. I'm like no I love it. I never see my housemates. It's the best deal I've ever had. It's brilliant. I love it. I just you do get a bit set in your ways. You do. But I've just had such fun living on my own and I love it so much.

I just really like myself. Yeah. Isn't that cool though? Really good. I can sit in a living room and just giggle. Same. I have the best time. Yeah I make myself laugh. But what's so funny is when you're younger i think when you're going up you're like okay so this is what's gonna happen so you go to school and they're like then i'm gonna go to uni and then i'm gonna get an amazing job yeah which is gonna be like 400 000 pounds a year obviously and then i'll buy a house and then i'll get married and then i'll have a child and i'll be 30 and then the kids will be like five my life will be over anyway yeah and then and then

it's just like you're like okay cool and then you get to like finishing school and you're like shit i don't know until you go to you i don't know what i want to do not really earning enough to pay rent oh god who's this like nothing fits how it's meant to fit but there's no other story out there that shows you anything different than beautiful young slim white girl goes and finds an amazing boyfriend who actually was a massive hoe before he found her but then changes his ways because she changes him because she's chaste and beautiful. But there is this idea as well,

this sort of bad boy thing, that we need to change them. I've tried to say to my friends, you can't change them. You can't change them. You have to find them as they are. They might pretend to be different for a couple of weeks. You literally have to get them, if they're past 25 and they're a certain way, that's it. There's no changing them. You've just got to get them, they've got to be different for a couple of weeks. You literally have to get them, I'm like, if they're past 25 and they're a certain way,

that's it. There's no changing them. You've just got to get them, they've got to be already perfect. And then, like, it's all down to the parents, really. Or just like their imperfections, you know? Yeah. Like, there's plenty,

like, we're all human beings and that's cool, but, like, they're not going to stop being a dick if they're already a dick. But it's when they're like, yeah, but it's when they're already being a dick to you and they don't want to be in a relationship with you and all this stuff, they're like, no, it's going to work,

I'm going to change them. It's like, you're not. I know, it's awful, isn't it? And also, you know that film, He's Just Not That Into You? I learned so much from that because it's true. Yeah. That is actually, it's a very good film. I was having this conversation yesterday.

We, as women especially, spend so much time comforting each other about shitty relationships. And like, oh, he's probably just like overwhelmed by his feelings. And like, he's probably just, you know his feelings and like he's probably just you know really into you but really busy at the moment my least favourite thing is when guys call girls

psychos but then we become psychos so this happened to my friend the other day she was like this guy's ghosting me because he hasn't replied

to me in like a day and we were like he might just be busy so just leave it but she then starts going like but this has happened and this he's been online

so then she starts bombarding him with all these messages and we're like stop we're like don't send one more message so i'm gonna send it and then she was like i know he hasn't read them yet i'll delete them so on whatsapp it goes this message was deleted this was deleted 10 times and we're like right leave it oh my god and then he replies going hey sorry i had a super busy day what did you delete and then she was like what and she's like he definitely read them and then we were like this is all this thing when we get so scared like you've just got to be not worried about it and not kind of we do these things where guys will my sister had this she had a horrible ex-boyfriend and he was like she's a

psycho years and years and years and it turns out she was right he'd literally cheated on her like loads of times this is the thing isn't it the gas lighting yeah it's such a thing usually those people who are going like what you're being crazy yeah they're the ones that are behaving really horribly and making you feel like you're but it makes the girls feel like you can't reply to a text message at the same time they send it to you or but i do also think like the games i hate the game i just don't really date anymore i can't play games i don't know how to do them i'm very bad at them me neither it's just so tedious but then you find yourself getting sucked into it don't you like oh he waited a full day to reply you need to also wait a full day to reply yeah

but i find that really weird i also find it weird when people are like oh i don't have time to reply because i reply to my friends i want to reply to you and then i just ignore the other one everyone is having a poo at some point in the day and they've got two minutes they've got time to get pink eye because they're using the phone on the loo but they have got two minutes i actually luckily missed out on the dating app thing because I am the opposite of you I'm a serial monogamous um which I didn't know but I definitely am I did not realize um and so I kind of never I've always dated people that I kind of knew or like were a friend of a friend I never did through the we used to play tinder as a house

I've never had a relationship from dating apps I've i've done it prolifically like yeah i've been such a dating person but never had i've the people i've actually been had relationships have always been people like that i've yeah or known through people yeah i never i don't think they work hard apparently bumble no one uses tinder because tinder's like all the shit people but bumble is like where it's at yeah i've got bumble but i just not it's weird because i've just moved to the countryside so there's no one on there well there's no one on there but also it's um it's it's the countryside where all my family live and like it's where i grew up and so it's just a bunch of boys like i used to snog at school that's so funny did you do you go on dates do you still still date now? I haven't in ages

because I've been moving house. I've been writing a new book and just kind of it just takes too much effort and then I realise like months have gone by and I haven't looked a man in the face and it's just kind of a bit like oh fuck I really should try and get laid soon. But when you date what's your intention?

Is it like I really want to get laid or is it do you ever date with the thought like i'm looking for a boyfriend i'm not i guess i don't i try not to think about it in those terms because i'm not i'd love to be like a one night stand person because i think that would like scratch the itch so and then i'd be like fine again but we've just got that in d, haven't we? I don't know if you've got that as well. It's not even that. It's just that I've never really enjoyed a one night stand. Like I've tried them.

And I just sort of, I think I just need to know somebody. Yeah. At least a little bit. For it to be good. For it to be enjoyable. It's like fine and it's a bit just kind of awkward. Yeah. So I just, it's a sort of weird push pull thing.

So you need a friend with benefits. I don't really want a relationship I do kind of don't I yeah there's no such thing I don't have any real male friends anymore this is the other thing I think and this is maybe a bit of a generalization but as you get a bit older your male friends kind of all start having serious relationship get married have babies and they kind of disappear a bit yeah um which is another weird sort of probably sexist thing where like men and single women yeah i do agree but i think it's also like you're the type of person you are because some people are i actually think the worst people are the girls that say i'm a guy's girl yeah i don't know why

you just but that's just internalized misogyny that just annoys me i'm a guy's girl i'm like okay i'm a self fulfilling prophecy really yeah exactly like we're not gonna like you telling us so all my guy fans i went to school with but like luckily normally what i find is i've had a boyfriend i'm friends with all their fans luckily my boyfriend is one of my school friends and i'm just friends with all my friends i'm already friends with which is really useful but now that you've dumped him it's gonna be really awkward because you're gonna have to like divvy up your friends fucking men yeah oh actually this fucking we hate men this is what people say about my book club because they're like it's a feminist book club to any men come and i'm like no they're like because

you hate men i'm like well yes but that is but this is the best thing at the first book club this is what happened so we were like oh no we don't hate men we're not like that and by the end of it we were literally like, fucking men. I hate men, because it was just all girls in a room talking about hot mess, and we just hated men.

I know, it's bad. I'm annoyed actually, because I read Hot Mess last summer, and now I can't remember it that deeply. Don't worry about me neither. No, because it's gone.

It's gone. It's over. It's over. It's over. It's over. It's over. It's over. It's over.

It's over. It's over. It's over. What were my favourite bits? I can't, the bits with the dad are really good, because you did like, more than just relationships,

with like, young relationships. Thank you. And also, oh yeah, because it has a twist, doesn't it? Oh, what with the dad are really good. Because you did more than just relationships with young relationships. Thank you. And also, oh yeah, because it has a twist, doesn't it? Oh, what, with the dad? Yeah. About his relationship? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Because I didn't know. Did you not? No. Did you not see it coming? The whole way through. Yes. I had no idea.

I was really shocked. That's what I was aiming for. Yeah, really good. I'm trying to open a bottle of San Pellegrino. You'd think I'd be strong, but I'm not. You're supposed to be really strong. I'll do it. Okay.

God. Oh, do you hear that? That is so annoying I was so loose so loose you're so like you oh dear um yeah I'm sorry I'm talking just such nonsense no it's fine so am I I'm sweating as well so much adrenaline my face is quite red but then I'm always I think you're like me do you have that skin that just gets red and i've probably got heat rash as well at the weirdest times you don't really brown the rest of you just a little pink yeah i do get really sweet little rosy cheeks nothing is like if i get nervous and i start sweating and then i sweat because i'm nervous and then i'm by the end right now am i making you nervous that was a game you played at school did you play nervous at school

there was me and two other girls Always got told of being frigid I love the word frigid I know I think we were like The only ones in our year That hadn't like done certain things Oh dear Like first base

I can't even remember What all the bases are No I don't I never understood I never really knew What they were either I still don't know What any of the bases are

I think first base Is touching a boob Which is so random I thought first base Was kissing Okay so maybe second base Is a boob And then I think third base Is like Under or over a boob which is so random my first person was kissing okay so maybe second base is a boob and then i think third base is like under or over boob i don't know i can't

remember but we were always called frigid because they'd be like are you nervous are you nervous touch your leg and be like i go away i'm nervous and he said i'm nervous they'd stop touching me oh okay i really thought when i was younger that sex was just all about the boy like letting them yeah definitely not it is yes it is no you're right that is what sex is that's why I haven't had it you don't even need to be there no but that is

so the message that's so true it's so bad and you just I never used to like it was always just like is he having a good time

it was just for them I didn't know that sex was for girls I had no clue I just thought it was something you did for them you only find out

like in your 20s it's ridiculous that like actually oh this is quite nice. The big O. Oh. No. Oh. Adulting, adulting.

It's just too much. But, yeah, so, I think relationship, when you're growing up, it's very much like, I think it's something you want to have. It's like a commodity that you acquire. It's a bit like getting a new pencil case or something, which was always the greatest thing. Like, every time, you're like, paper chase shopping yeah getting all the matching ones my mum were like you have literally just got a matching set and i need the one with the monkeys on it now okay i got it but i need more

stationery yeah always more stationery i still love stationery me too probably is rooted in that exciting feeling it's weird isn't it i don't know why yeah but i'm never happier than in a ryman anyway as i was making very good parallels between juvenile relationships and uh station which i'm sure all of you can feel like makes complete sense boyfriend pencil sharpener same thing obviously obviously but yeah so i think we acquired boyfriends like just having a it was like an accessory yeah definitely and just kind of a thing to be ticked off your list yeah and it was really cool if you had one you didn't really talk to them i used to have to think of topics to say to mine at break time so you didn't really have much to say i'd like i'd get really nervous think shit what we're going to talk about i can't the topic would go really well for about 15 minutes but then we'd still have like 15 minutes left to break so we just snog and snogging

was horrible i wasn't it was horrible but we did it because i was like this is a cool i think it makes you feel adult. We'd snog everywhere. We'd snog around the court. There was the condom tree at school that everyone used to have. Were there condoms in it? So many. Really? Yeah just condoms. So you finished with a condom and you just threw it up in the tree?

I guess so but I wasn't a boarder so everyone used to go and have sex like on campus. Was it a mixed school? Yeah. I didn't even know they did that. Yeah, really fun. But you don't mix in the houses. No, I guess not. I think my sister, when she was there, I think it was, like, even less strict.

So the boys would literally, like, climb out their windows and, like, climb into the girls' rooms. I think now it's pretty militant. I don't think you can get away with much. But I know that they had, like, campus time that was till, like, 10pm. So everyone would just be, like, having sex. Amazing. Well, not everyone.

Oh, I feel like I missed out on so much I didn't lose my virginity until I was 19 is that too much to share no what was I reading it's in dolly's book isn't it it's like you must must not lose your virginity before 16 but you must use it before 18 otherwise you're doomed to never have sex sort of aggressively like nope don't want to don't want to don't want to um never thought I would be ready and also just thought you know all the boys in my school were idiots and just wanted to get away so i didn't i went down to london for uni at 18 yeah so had you told anyone did you ever talk to anyone about it what about my virginity

like did i guess no in sixth form it wasn't kind of i don't know i wasn't very cool so i didn't really talk to the cool people they were probably all talking about sex and oh really the best time so we used to talk about it but i know at some school so we had like a split group but there was some of the girls that we were quite like we're gonna wait till we're 16 i actually then did that was a sort of prudish yeah not prudish but it was like a sort of superior yeah it was it was literally all about on you yeah that's what we did it like but then i think i decided i want to have sex with my boyfriend i was like no we've got to wait till 16 so we did wait annoying and then it was the most horrible thing I cried and then I hated it it was awful because if you just don't know what you're doing

so we'd all waited but then I know other people have said that it was like a competition in their school like who could lose their virginity first I don't think we really have that I think with the book there was maybe a boy there was always this one girl who'd like had sex at like 13 all the mums had found out and the mums all go and have meetings yeah about it and we couldn't believe it but i remember finding out what sex was my neighbor told me she just had sex education she was a year above me and she invited me around to come to swings to tell me about it so on the swings her dad about the swinging she was like so i found out what sex is and she told me and i was like no way no way that is not no i was like no one would do that, that is awful, and then she's

like, if you want to have twins, you have to put it in your mouth, and I was like, no way, and then I knew twins at school, and I'd see their mum, and I'd be like, you are disgusting, because I just thought for years, but I was like, I didn't believe, I was like, this can't be true, no, this, there's no way in hell that anyone, I was 11, it's a weird system, it's very weird, I was like, no one is going to put put that in there that is just not happening do you remember when you found out what sex was no i don't remember that moment do you know no that sounds like it was a really traumatic thing for you it was such a big i can remember it's so good being sat there and i'm i really always because i can remember the feeling but i can't remember how to find that because obviously now

you're not you don't think that's weird but i just find it so interesting that like that newness of that there's not much that you go through in life as an adult that you're like shocked by yeah that's so fun to be shocked like on the daily you were like what new things wines made of grapes grapes or raisins like everything you like all this information you find out it's all new whereas now it's kind of sad you just know everything isn't it sorry there's going to come a point in your life

where you just never learn another thing yeah when you die no but I do think it was at war Fandu Casino Daily Jackpots guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one feeling winning

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Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11pm eastern restrictions apply see full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com please play responsibly new and fun I do think that is a really fun thing

to think about yeah I definitely remember like the first time somebody sort of explained a tampon to me which is kind of a similar

obviously it's exactly the same pretty much exactly the same yeah same principle yeah and that was really like horrendous and shocking and i was like well i'll never do that yeah i wear my my nappies forever yeah and i remember my i can't

do you know do you ever assimilate stories and think they are your own there's a story i'm about to tell and i it was either my sister or my friend's sister and i can't remember if it happened to me or my friend but i know the story so well that it could be my own story i'm not sure but i know that one of our sisters got their period and was like, mum, I'm bleeding. And then the sister, either me or my friend, can't remember,

was really upset because they thought that their sister like cut themselves. And was like outside the bathroom crying like, let me in, let me in. Not knowing it was a period. And like being so upset because you just wouldn't understand.

I remember my sisters being like, they're like seven and eight years older than me. So I remember seeing their like period books. My mum had bought them these books that explain everything. It's really weird. And I remember my sisters being like, they're like seven and eight years older than me, so I remember seeing their period books. My mum had bought them these books that explain everything. It's really weird. I remember reading it and being like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, horrible.

It's really shit that we have to have periods. It's so shit. It's so unfair. It's so annoying. I know. I don't know why that is. It's not really fair. The patriarchy just...

Fucking patriarchy giving us periods. Exactly. It is really, isn't it? They're just just like we won't have those you guys can have those we'll have self-confidence you guys can have periods okay is that good does that work for you who knows okay so i'm gonna stop giggling it's okay we're gonna be very calm and calm we just had to take a little break because we lost our minds yeah we lost our tiny little minds our tiny dank little minds indeed so we were just talking about how i'm in a relationship right now lucy is single and one of the biggest things that i get messages about are girls being like oh my

god i feel in so much pressure because i've either just left school left uni or i'm at a set there's an age where everyone starts coupling off and we were just talking about the reasons that people aren't coupling off might not be because they've met the one no um which is why there's a lot of layers to this feeling of oh my god i should be in a relationship but your friends might not even be in relationships for the right reasons and i think it's good to have a positive one hot mess is a great thing to read if you are single because it's just life affirming and you're very happy being single and i think that's the narrative we need to hear yeah because we don't really hear it is the official happily ever after line is meeting the one yeah but I don't I don't think sort of that one thing is is helpful or like um constructive

because then it just sort of makes you hanker after this perfect thing that isn't really there like relationships are up and down and that's tough and it's great if you find somebody that is your equal and does make you happy but being single is so much fun and it's so important to do it for at least a little bit of time I think being called single actually just in itself is a bit weird you're not you're just you you're not like a thing point isn't it like being like you just literally singled out as single you're not single you have a whole family probably and friends you're not like a thing point isn't it like being like you just literally singled out as single you're not single you have a whole family probably and friends you're not like on your own it's this single shaming thing yeah and we act like you're gonna be so lonely and it's the sort

of self-fulfilling prophecy i think where you're like um oh i'm alone and therefore i'm so lonely and therefore i will never meet anybody it's like being single is like an unfinished state but you're single as a child in limbo It's like being single is like an unfinished state. But you're single as a child. Exactly, you're like in limbo. It's like what age does it suddenly become like not okay to be single? Because I don't think you really say you're single when you're in your teens, do you? You just don't have a boyfriend.

No, exactly, yeah. But then when you get to your 20s, it's like, are you single? Yeah, yeah. You're allowed to be just you when you're younger. The one, the thing about the one, my favourite thing about the one is that every relationship you're in, they're the one the one obviously otherwise you wouldn't be in it sure so you literally have the one every time so they're really by that calculation there isn't a one but I think it's so important to um actually like enjoy being single and embrace it a bit and actually kind of get to know it sounds cheesy but get to know who you are a bit because if you are not a happy person and not happy being on your own then how on earth are

you ever going to be happy in a relationship I think there's this idea that a relationship sort of heals you and makes you complete when if you're if you're unhappy or um broken in some way and with somebody they're not going to fill those gaps yeah the danger is and be happy within yourself and then you can be happy in a relationship yeah i completely agree i think the other danger is if you do get with someone when you're broken what happens is you then give you so much yourself to them if you break up you literally have nothing i had this with a boyfriend who is actually really toxic and awful and he took so much of me that when we broke up my whole world collapsed yeah

and i realized that what you've got to have is be a completely solid entity that people can come in and walk out and you're still left there as your own thing but the problem is people are always searching to fix voids and also why do we put so much store in romantic relationships but we don't put the same amount of work in our friendships no the things people that the efforts people go to with their boyfriends and girlfriends but with your actual friendships the same amount of work in our friendships. No, isn't that funny? The efforts people go to with their boyfriends and girlfriends, but with your actual friendships, you just kind of take them for granted. And that's something I've tried to do more recently,

is treat every relationship I have, whether it's my parents or my sisters or my friends, like it's a romantic relationship. Oh, that's so great. That's so lovely. Because you do, I don't know why we don't do that. And I was just saying to Lucy that when I used to get into relationships when I was younger,

I had like girlfriend me, that was a very different version of me, that was like the perfect, and I knew how to be that person. I knew how to play that character very, very well. But I didn't know that I could be me. I didn't think anyone would like me. I was just saying that I didn't think,

I think three years ago, I wouldn't have had all the feminist agenda that I had because a lot of my life was spending time curating myself to be the perfect girlfriend and the perfect girlfriend doesn't talk about periods and the perfect girlfriend isn't annoyed about the patriarchy and isn't telling you to grow your pubes and those things I spent so much of my life trying to be this perfect girl that the patriarch has told you that you need to be that I never learned how to be myself so I think I think actually a lot of us especially when you're younger just spending a whole time making yourself

fit into what you think you're supposed to be as a woman in terms, in the eyes of men which is so damaging this is a thing that we do as well there's a term, emotional labour and women will do that, they will spend so much time running around that person making sure like

oh no, he's in a mood, I need to fix that mood. That is so insane. You think about it, that we feel responsible for someone else's moods and stuff like that. But being alone, you don't have to worry about that. You don't have to worry about other people's moods,

other people's plans. You don't have to kind of run yourself ragged around another person. You can just focus on who you are and what you're doing with your life. And I have to say, I love being being single I love having my own space being able to make plans just for myself go traveling if I want to do that go see my family friends and it's what you were just saying about friendships it's an amazing thing for me that I've been able to

invest so much time in my wonderful wonderful friendships my friends my friends are the most wonderful people in the world and I've been able to give them so much because I don't have you know a relationship to kind of take up yeah 80% of my time and I think it's so funny that we've come become so progressive in certain trains of thought but when it comes to relationships it's really archaic and I even think about we were talking about this a bit about having children and I said to my mum once imagine if you just didn't do the thing where you left school got a job and then went whatever you did and then got married and had kids imagine if you decided that you're just going to travel for your whole life and she was like what I was like but imagine if you didn't have to have things and imagine if we

didn't live in a capitalist society where you had to accumulate things to show your wealth to prove that you're successful in the eyes of like a not why have we decided that there's only one way of doing things and a lot of the the problem is it's not coming from you your wants your needs your real desire because you're probably actually really fulfilled a lot of people do feel fulfilled in their lives but the idea of needing a relationship is from it's just it it's really bad actually i found that that was the worst thing like going to family gatherings just everyone always asks you but this is the thing isn't it because they because we've been taught that that is the be all and end all yeah and like we were saying earlier that being single is a limbo state and it's just a kind of women are just desperately

waiting to be rescued yeah it's like be picked up by a man I've written books and I've had this amazing fun career I've been a journalist for 10 years I've got two books out writing a third book and still the first question I get asked by family is oh still no boyfriend like that's so weird you met anybody going out on dates it's such a strange system that we have it's also quite intrusive because I even just asked if you're dating I'm actually talking about the subject right but it's quite an intrusive thing to ask because it's actually I almost think we ask even strangers you're like do you have another half it's one of the first things people ask you when i meet a new person you know in a in a friend new friend situation it's like oh so got partner where's your husband are you in a relationship

yeah it's even harder now because you have to be very um liberal and like make sure that you're asking the right questions but then you don't want to offend someone by assuming that they're maybe gay or something i never know what to ask anymore so i just don't just don't but then then you also fall into the trap of just not asking any questions because you can't ask you've got children as well like you don't want to be like where's your children that's another assumption thing and uh but it is tricky because then you just end up staring at somebody yeah let's take jenna jim tatum and channing tatum for example i can't talk about it i'm still too heartbreaking saw that i know like this seemed so perfect but this is my other concern my fear is when we talk about this well we're gonna live so much longer i really want to read is monogamy dead have you read that have you heard oh yeah

so this is a really good book this out people keep getting offended by the title i thought it was so funny i was listening to her i think it was on guilty feminist and she was saying how she got this letter from this man that was so angry he hadn't't read the book. He'd just read the title. And she was like, the best thing about it, it's a question. I'm not saying monogamy is dead. I'm going, is monogamy dead? Yeah. And he's going, I would like to explain to you why monogamy isn't dead.

It's always man's man. So me and my wife have been together. Yeah, mansplaining. And it's so funny because it's a really interesting question. Like, we're brought up in the world where you think that heteronormative, especially people think men and women should be together and you're going to be together forever if you go back in history this is one of my favorite things it's in sarah pascoe's animal it's also in homo sapiens and it's about women and do you remember the thing where it's like paternity certainty and all the stuff about do

you remember in the book yeah so women are more vocal during sex we make noises and that and you know how women can have multiple organisms right men can't so the reason is because in order to procure the best children sperm can compete with each other and that's other people's sperm so basically a woman and when we were neanderthals or whatever we were no we weren't that's a different species of human i don't know whatever the old caveman so we were we'd have sex with the partner the man would fall asleep they get they have a hormone that um yeah the releases that makes them fall asleep and we don't we can keep going yeah it's great so they would fall asleep and then you'd have been making sex noises so another man nearby would know that you were in the mood and they'd come and have sex with you as well and you could

keep going have loads of sexual partners all the sperm would compete and the best sperm would win yeah and you'd have their child and that's natural selection yeah my favorite thing about making sex noises now will somebody come yeah it's like a mate it's literally mating calls but this is why the whole concept of belonging in the first place is so stupid because you actually go back to how humans work and the reason especially about female prudishness and like slut shaming and women should be like celibate like you are obviously um then it just doesn't make sense so the fact if we just go back and that's documented that is literally anyone who wants to find that out find that out in history there's so many things and we've just decided nope this ideology exists

we're gonna go with that that makes sense fine you see rudely checked her phone during the interview which is uh not coming back but she's ready to got bumble message wait are we gonna reply oh well i can't be bothered okay fine this is my problem with dating is that i just get too tired but i just think oh i'll just reply to it later i think the problem with like dating apps is it's changed what dating is it's not like you don't court like you don't date and go meet people it's like you're both there with the like the idea that this is almost i don't know but you also have to invest so much in this chatting chatting chatting for a couple of weeks and then you go meet and you don't like each other and it was like that was such a waste it'd be so much easier just to meet first off yeah like blind dates maybe i

know do people do that somewhat i've had policies of just kind of just having a couple of messages and then being like but then they're always dicks as well maybe you kind of need to know them a little bit before you go so you know that they're not maniacs but maybe it should just be like you match and then it just tells you a place to go that's in the middle of you two and you just go episode is it yeah oh there's the one where it tells you your love that one was really weird and have to go and have like a two-day relationship or whatever. Yeah, that was awful. Did you not enjoy that?

No. I just love anything that Black Mirror does. I do, but they always make me feel really depressed so I have to watch something like comedy afterwards. Yes, it's really dark. Because it's really dark. The social media one was awful. Oh, that really upset me.

I'm fricking my job is on social media. I was like, this is rad. But didn't you find during it that you were quite like, no, no, you're fucking it up. And I was like, no, I'm on the wrong side here i know yeah it was stressing me out so stressful yeah it's scary because this happened i was sunbathing the other day in brockwell park and there was these young girls there and they were like dancing i was like this is so great they're like singing dancing i was like loving it thinking it was so funny listening

to music and then they just stopped doing again i was i was reading dolly alderton's book at the time and then i looked up and i realised what they were doing is they were singing and dancing and obviously like recording it on the phone and the minute the recording stopped they stopped

watched it back and they were doing it again and I was like you're not actually having fun you're faking having fun to film it

like they weren't actually singing and dancing because it was fun they were like la la la adulting adulting

dancing filming it on their Snapchat in their school skirts twerking at the age of about 12 like full on twerking at age about 12 like full on twerking yeah stressful but i was like oh that's so sad you don't actually have just handfuls of apples but honestly i was like oh my god this is so sad like they're not actually

living their lives they're living through their phones it makes me a bit sad it is really stressful and it's just real you just black, Black Mirror is all around us. Maybe they're, because I always feel like I'm too judgy about stuff and maybe actually that is really fun for them and they do really enjoy it

and then they can go and have fun. Maybe it's just a different way of having fun. Yeah, and just like, life is redefining around us. Yeah, it is true. It's a bit like our grandparents

who were like, oh, TV, oh, you're ruining, you've ruined life. Yeah, but I also think that a little bit. Yeah, are you a grandparent? I am, yeah. I actually do, because I'm one of these people that I'm like, when I'm older, I'm not going to let my kids a grandparent? I am, yeah. I actually do,

because I'm one of these people that I'm like, when I'm older, I'm not going to let my kids go on the internet. And then I listened. And I'm going to be American. And I'm going to be American.

That's a weird American accent. And then I listened. You're not going to let your kids go on the internet. I don't even know what American accent that was. No, so what I'm going to be like is I won't let my kids go on,

oh no, I've gone Australian. Oh, what the fuck was that? It was one of those that you weren't going to be on. So anyway, I listened to this woman and she didn well let my kids go on oh no i've gone australian oh what the fuck was that so anyway i listened to this woman she didn't let her kids go on an ipad or go on ipads which everyone is allowed to go on an ipad from age of two they start watching peppa pig don't they and then they went to school and they were really slow because all their work was on ipads and i was like that is dystopian af yeah so you don't have the choice. You have to let them be digitally literate, whatever it's called. Yeah, no, that is right.

It's rank, isn't it? Yeah. I even, I'm like, I won't buy a Kindle. Completely anti-Kindles. I am a bit, but actually Hot Mess did really well on Kindle, so I'm not going to diss a Kindle. Yeah, because you started off not in print, didn't you? Well, it was always coming out in book,

but they just brought it forward the release date. I don't know why I know that. I didn't, that is a bit niche. in book but they just brought forward the release i don't know why i know that i didn't that is a bit niche i think maybe was it on the high low oh i don't know no i didn't appear on it but i think they might have mentioned it someone else i must have missed that i love that show yeah i did miss a couple um anyway i don't know where i got the information from no they brought forward the release date of the e-book. Yeah. Just because I think it was like people were kind of talking about it a bit, which was exciting, and they were just like, oh, let's jump in quickly.

Maybe it's actually because I wanted to get it, but I don't e-book, so I had to wait. Yes, it came out the end of May on e-book, and then the July date was always, it was always going to be coming out in July. But then, yeah, anyway. So what drove you to write it so should we give a do you want to give a little premise of the story okay yeah so it's about um a girl i can't even remember she's called ellie she's called ellie knight and she's 29 um

and she's single and everybody's really worried about her being single because you know she's turning 30 and what will become of her? Because she's on her own, oh God. And it kind of follows her going on some dates on Tinder and go through that hell. And at the same time, her dad is also kind of going on dates himself at the age of 60s. It's a bit of a generational difference.

And it's sort of about their journey. And I hope it's funny. It's so, it's laugh out loud funny. and I hope it's funny I hope it's so it's laugh out loud funny thank you and I did it in my book club and everyone said that because it's so you just say things which are really so relatable and even things it made me kind of shame myself because I've said it to friends yeah well I can't even think I almost wish I'd got quotes up but there's just so many bits in it where you've really tapped into things that are so common within friendship groups and it was like properly laugh out loud oh thank you it was

really good yeah but my new book i probably should be talking about more oh yeah that's just come out i do actually have that do you yeah your publisher actually sent it to me but i haven't read it yet there's no pressure to read it i promise you but there is pressure for everybody listening to this to read it it's called what fresh how what fresh how and that's kind of more about the sort of madness of weddings and hendoos oh fun maybe a little bit too young i'm living with my sister oh right yeah she's a bit older than me isn't she yeah it sort of kicks in late 20s and goes insane and um like so competitive and it's and it's i don't want anyone to think it's like an attack on bride but everybody's just competing yeah everyone has to one everyone wants their day to be the most special.

So if you've already been to ten weddings in the last couple of years that were all really special. And all abroad and all like lavish. Then you want to, naturally you want yours to be better than that. And therefore. We're like, I'm just a bit before that. So my sister's got just a bit where they're all basically, she's like, everyone's getting engaged. And she had about five weddings up. She's got quite a big group of girlfriends.

Well, I've been a bridesmaid for the last seven years in a row. Oh, my God. And it's, I just haven't had a holiday in that time, because it's just been so expensive. It's ridiculous, yeah. Well, my neighbour was saying this, she was like, she's one of the last ones out of her friends to get married, and then they get married, and there's about two years, and they have a baby. Yeah.

And she was like, and I don't, she was like, I've just got my coil fitted, I'm good to go for another ten years. Same thing. Like, I am not having a baby. But it is really and it's also like once it's almost like breaking the seal like someone gets married and they all go that's what it is it's a sort of panicky

like oh no we all have to do this now yeah and it's a couple of our friends a couple of our friends have one's had a baby already and another one's just about to have a baby but that's kind of like not as organised as it may have been as planned i know you don't want to say that just before here um i went to my friend's house to see

her because she's just had her fourth child it's ridiculous my sister's got three children really do you love them loads yeah they're okay are you like do you love babies no you don't care i find them no i really i really enjoy hanging out with kids that sounds creepy but you know what i mean like um do you prefer the ones that you know or do you like any baby no i i'm not anti-baby i just don't want one for myself because it's just so exhausting i look after my three nieces i actually i've got loads and loads of nieces and nephews um i've got 10 nieces and nephews most of them are a bit older though yeah one's older than you really yeah one's turning 27 soon yeah 26 maybe i'll be friends with them i know right she's awesome you would love her okay cool i'll bring her down introduce us yeah frankie shout out to frankie um but um it's it's just

like i have my three nieces who are little and i'm so drained by it it's just like I have my three nieces who are little and I'm so drained by it, it's just a different kind of exhaustion if you have kids I'm like a sponge, so I get concerned about things that have absolutely nothing to do with me I will get literally upset about someone else's problems and I listen to Happy Mum Happy Baby by Giovanna Fletcher

which is a great podcast, she's amazing but I feel stressed, I'm like God it's so stressful having a child and I know we're not having a baby but I listen to someone, my sister's got two kids and she's amazing but I feel stressed I'm like god it's so stressful having a child and I don't I'm no we're not having a baby but I listen to someone my sister's got two kids and she's like we're face time her and she's so tired and I'm like this is exhausting I'm not even there they're in Australia and I'm worn out you see I come home from babysitting for a few hours and I'm just like there's nothing that tires me out yeah I'm just so broken yeah it's so tiring I just think it

worries me I like them a lot and i love them but i just i think you have to be rich to have children like not seven nannies yeah like financially stable years old is when i will have a baby like i don't 55 yeah literally honestly and this is the other thing that i've started to realize you probably got to like your peak of your income at like 40 that's probably when you start earning enough money you're comfortably living the life you're living a good time and that's that's just when on average that's when your baby your child's probably about 10 and they're crying because they haven't got the latest barbie fuck spending half that like you will go back to having the same income you have doing a 21 i'm gonna spend my

40s traveling the world yeah spending money i've quite fancy having a baby at 40 if i was gonna have that be quite nice but then it's scary because then what if you get to 40 and you can't this is what so saddens me about the baby thing because like we do actually have a natural like feminine like a problem with babies because like we do we do that's why people then jump into relationships we were talking about this like when you want a certain age yeah but then it was like anita was saying on the gyne geek podcast she said that that's not always the case and almost you just shouldn't she said this it was very good she was like we'll never take like make someone test something unless it's going to change your course of action she was like if

you're not on a relationship at 27 and you're getting tested to see if you're fertile she was like is that going to make you run and jump into a relationship that you weren't going to be in in which case is it really a good idea for you to know that you're not going to be able to have children because actually you might just be happier not getting into a relationship for the sake of a child and it's also like maybe you just weren't meant to have kids then maybe it's better just taking that risk and being like actually it's got to the point it would be hard but then i just think that not everyone has to have a baby no but it's another thing another narrative that we've been told has to happen like yeah as women our main roles are to be a wife and to be a mother

yeah and what are we outside of that and i and i really think that that is being redefined and i hope that that is being redefined now yeah and a lot of thanks to people like you who are out there like having a fantastic presence on on the internet and and being like we're doing other things with our lives well i have to say i know you can still do those things if you want to I'm not saying don't do these things it's just that there's no like No there's options. Desperate

like if you are a person that doesn't feel particularly broody and doesn't like need to like need desperately to find a man then embrace that. Yeah. Don't feel worried or panic about it. I think I'm concerned about

there is a massive trend with a lot of YouTubers and social media stars who come into money quite young and then like kind of settled down very young not that's a problem but like tammy hembo for example has got like them she's got like millions of followers she's one of the most beautiful people i've ever seen most perfect body she's had about i think she had two babies and she looks like an actual barbie like her body is ridiculous but she's 24 or something and she's got like like, the most amazing life.

And then you've got Kylie Jenner, who's having kids at, like, however old she is. And I'm just concerned that this is becoming, like, a new thick trend thing to do. Like, motherhood is becoming, like... A trend. Really young. And I'm actually a bit concerned,

because I think we were going the other way. Like, motherhood was going a bit later, women are getting more career-driven. And I actually am starting to see more and more, like, I want to do an episode on the Kardashians because their influence is insane but I actually think we're going to see an influx of young mothers because of Kylie yeah I actually think she's going to be she will be I genuinely think people are going to think oh it's okay Kylie Jenner's done it 21 you're going to buy the lip gloss and then they're going to have the baby

yeah and then they're going to get bum implants and I honestly I'm like when does it end allegedly yeah sorry fat injections am I going to end like defamation no I'm totally joking

imagine if the Kardashians sued me that would be amazing publicity how good would that be please do sue me we found this random little tiny podcaster

in the UK it's not tiny shut up you've been number one loads twice twice you've been number

one loads I was trying to like figure out nothing thank you so much but yeah it does concern me and also is this a bit morbid but i kind of now we're talking about babies i want to talk about the referendum in ireland do you have any political do you want to talk about that of course because i think that it's all i'm pro-choice of course same and i just can't believe that we're living and it's a bit of a morbid transition to do that. No. But it is such a weird idea that we are still living

in a world that is even questioning that. Yeah. That women shouldn't have the rights over their own bodies. It's so astonishing to me. Yeah. Because we're so forward-thinking in so many ways, and moving forward in so many ways, and then we're still kind of trying to fix stuff that should have been fixed a hundred years ago

yeah my friend's a journalist actually for the Independent I went and met her yesterday and she did Livvy Petter she writes for the Lifestyle team oh girl yeah she's cool

and she just did an article about going because now they're banning in the UK protests like they're banning pro-life protests outside

the abortion clinics and one of the last ones she went to this abortion clinic and there's people sitting outside with like leaflets and stuff and it's so awful like it's funny that what's going on here is we're banning them from having like pro-life and that they're having a referendum to see whether they can even have an abortion in ireland she said to them what if you were raped or what if it was incest or what if it was like anything they were like yeah but you still need to protect the life of the baby women just have no choice over their bodies and it's astonishing as well to me how many um of these spokespeople are men and yeah what credence do

you have never ever gonna have to decide like my life no they just don't understand i literally taught on the previous podcast but that fear of when you're younger this is one of the weirdest things i grapple with now. Is that if I got pregnant now. I literally said this to my mum. I'm just like don't because I don't have time. She if I'm pregnant she would move to London and take the baby. But I was like.

My mum says that to me. Like have a baby and then I'll just be comfortable for you. But I spent my whole life. Spent my whole life so worried about getting pregnant. And then you're like oh my god I could actually just get pregnant now and have a baby. And that scares the living daylights out of me. Yeah just don't do it. Just don't do it. Celibibacy I mean I know we've been gunning for it now we really are massive advocates we've either been like advocating celibacy or just all the sex all the sex it's another really important thing which is maybe a bit older

maybe not as many people think this out but I think a lot of the reason why girls get into relationships as well is they sleep with or think they can't have sex unless it's in a monogamous yeah loving relationship when actually because of that like because of that yeah because they don't want to be seen as somebody who does it but but fuck it you're allowed to own your sexuality and i think that's why i was using that word earlier because i just want to like take it back yeah take ownership of it and i think we've got to change this i think women should be allowed to be sexual beings you should be allowed to want to be in a relationship you should be allowed to be in any kind of relationship you want to be in and and you shouldn't feel like the pressures are coming from your friends because we're all the weirdest thing is women against women is one of the worst things you'll ever face

and we're all under the same pressures but we all take them differently so some people might feel the pressure like I have to get into a relationship or others might feel like I have to do this and actually everyone's kind of fighting the same fight and we need to be more understanding that everyone's going to be at different stages and there's just the worst thing is single shaming I think yes and also advice giving of people who are in relationships giving advice on how to get relationships or other friends who are single telling you how to be single and everyone's always trying to give you their two cents of no I was with this boy and he did this

and everyone's favourite everyone's got an ex like your current boyfriend I'm probably quite bad for this so I literally think that I am like a what are those people that agony aren't

that you write into I think I am one that's brilliant I invite you over for tea you should do another podcast where you're doing an agony aren't column maybe we should do

an agony aren't question at the end I should invite people to ask questions we don't have any questions I've just realised to answer ok let's just google one I'm going to google one I'm going to look up Dear Prudence because that's my favourite one what is it? oh it's on slate.com

it's my favourite agony art column it's by Mallory Ortberg do you know Mall mallory has actually transitioned and i can't remember um his new name but oh i don't know um help my friends okay i'm gonna read you a um question okay and you have to answer it as the agony okay i'm so ready okay oh this is actually quite relevant good feeling left behind what can I do to stop feeling like I'm stuck in neutral? While everyone my age seems to be married or engaged,

buying houses, having babies and getting promotions, I feel stuck in pretty much the same spot I have been since I graduated college several years ago. I have a decent job, but it's sort of a dead end. I have a boyfriend, but we don't seem to be on the track to marriage. I'd like to move far away from where I grew up and buy a house, but I don't make enough to pay my debt and save. I don't think there's an answer to my question,

but maybe this will resonate with some readers this is kind of exactly what we're talking about so I think the question there is why do you want well that's why do you want to buy a big house um somewhere else is that because you think that's what you're supposed to be doing and I think a lot of the things that we think are going to make us happy are just because that is like the the societal ideology tells you that that's what's going to make you happy have you thought about looking outside of the realms that you already exist in what about going into spaces on your own I think this is what relationships can coddle people from doing is when you're in a relationship you get very comfortable having Netflix and dominoes on a Sunday and actually

what if you're really interested in doing something that's quite weird or I'm always such an advocate of going to things on your own I really like going to things on my own and meeting new people. And it's not embarrassing. I think one of the biggest drivers, actually, towards being in a relationship and kind of going off topic is so that you have a safety blanket. So you always have, like, a person. Yeah, and it's hard to let go of that.

Yeah, and it's that idea of, like, it's like, oh, I'm safe if I've got someone else to, like, back me up. Yeah. You still feel like you can't let it go. Yeah, and I think that is, like, a primal thing. But I would say to someone who feels like they're stuck or they're behind their friends that you've just got to invest in you and also do all the things that you want to do and kind of ignore everyone the biggest thing when I first started my Instagram some of the people that I knew from school and from other places I'd met were so mean like I'd see them like nasty comments other people

like taking a piss out of me because I started it and I had no never thought it would be like a job I just was posting about my fitness journey and because it was quite strange for people that knew me because I wasn't into fitness I think it kind of alienated them they were like we don't know you like this what are you doing this is weird and they'd be quite bitchy comments because quite a lot of my pictures before were like me and my underwear being like oh I've lost weight whatever which is quite a nasty but it was part of a journey but I understand how that could be quite weird looking at and you might do something and be really scared to do it but in the long run if you're invested in it it's always going to be an investment in yourself and everyone comes back around because now everyone's like you're doing

really well and it's amazing but initially that jump to do something for you which is outside of the norm maybe all your friends are moving to the countryside you think that's what you're meant to be doing but maybe you should just go take a job or a six month sabbatical and just go traveling without anyone that you know yeah i think sometimes we could be really held back by the people that we've known for the longest we compare ourselves yeah don't we and that is just such a mistake we need to remember that we're all on our own path and we're all doing our own thing and just because they're doing something doesn't mean that you should also be doing that same thing and also if you if they're all kind of stuck in this if you

feel like you're stuck it might not be that it might just be like you've kind of grown up the position that you're in and you need to go into uncharted waters definitely there's nothing worse and imagine you're so concerned about like going to live in the country or do something that your friends doing and then when you die you realize that you've literally just done all the things that you were kind of led to do thought you were supposed to do and never really ventured out and did something different and took a risk we just don't sit down with ourselves and ask what is it that i actually want to do yeah what is i want from my life and we just sort of assume from an early age that we're supposed to be doing this thing so you just sort of tick them

off and then when they don't fulfill you you're kind of like oh what wait what what yeah she actually sounds like that that reader sounds like oh what wait what what yeah she actually sounds like that that reader sounds like she had all those things like she's got the boyfriend yeah but actually that's maybe not none of those things were the right things yeah happy they're not satisfying her there was a really good thing i did when i was in japan i went with attics and this guy was like we're doing a um i can't remember what it's called but it's basically he gave us a piece of paper and you had to pick five things that are important to you and i think there was like a few things i think i picked family friends philosophy can't remember what it's called, but it's basically, he gave us a piece of paper and you had to pick five things that are important to you. And I think there was like a few things.

I think I picked family, friends, philosophy. I can't remember. But you'd then go, how am I going to, what part of my life do I do those things in? And you'd go, imagine yourself in five years and you write it as if it's five years time.

And it was like, so my one was like, I am, I think I was like, I'm empowering women by doing something. And then you had to write, now, go back five years, how are you going to get there? And it was like a manifestation thing.

And you wrote all of these different, for each topic. And I was like, wow. Because I didn't even know these thoughts were in my brain. It's funny, isn't it? And just writing it out like that, I then felt this whole new zeal to be like, oh, I'm going to go and do this. Yeah. And it's very easy to do.

It's just we don't really give ourselves the time of the day to do that. Yeah. Do it, guys. Yeah. That was a great answer. You make a great acting art. Thanks. It was very long and didn't really answer ourselves the time of the day to do that yeah do it guys yeah that was a great answer you make a great it was very long and didn't really answer the question no i think it did i think it really did but i know you've got to go i've got to go but thank you so much for coming thank you so much i'm sorry that i feel like i just talked like that's absolutely fine i mean i don't know that we've actually what we've talked about we have had a

great time though and i'm so glad i met you literally and next time i think we should do it with wine and maybe without the mic i think we should always have the mic yeah i know i think it would be good us drunk it would just be our lives all the time like a live streaming like the kardashians but only audio that's a great idea that's so good doing that we have to do that well thank you so much oh wait wait if you have to give one piece of advice to anyone like struggling or like what you wish you'd known when you were younger about being an adult being an adult or what's the biggest thing that you're like i know i feel like an adult now i know this i'm not an adult i think that that's almost something like you're always striving like yeah I feel like we

spend so much of our youth trying to like strive to be a grown-up and be seen as a grand yeah actually like fuck that like it's fun staying young and feeling silly and laughing at things and not ever taking yourself too seriously I agree so I think just just embrace the childing yeah do yeah well adulting like always makes me laugh because it's such an infantile word I agree. So I think just, just embrace the childing. Yeah, do. Yeah, well, adulting always makes me laugh because it's such an infantile word. We've gone adult

and then we're like, ha ha ing. Fuck adulting. Yeah, fuck adulting. Adulting, adulting. Yes.

I didn't know what else to make. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Okay, cool. Amazing. Amazing. okay cool amazing amazing the podcast you just heard was recorded with Anchor.

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