Adulting - #68 Motherhood, Social Media & Boundaries with Candice Brathwaite

Episode Date: June 7, 2020

Hey Podulters, this week I speak to author, influencer and (sometimes termed by other people), 'mummy blogger', Candice Brathwaite. We discuss diversity in the influencer industry, her new book I Am Not Your Baby Mother and the current conversations about anti-racism online. Thanks so much for listening, as always please do rate, review and subscribe! O xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hi, poddleteers. I hope you're all doing okay. In this week's episode, I speak to Candice Brathwaite. She is an influencer, sometimes called a mummy blogger, but she doesn't love that term. And an author, her new book, her first book, I should say, I Am Not Your Baby Mother, has just come out and it is absolutely hitting the world by storm. I think it's selling out everywhere. So do make sure to get your hands on that. I am about halfway through it and it is amazing. In this episode, I speak to Candice about what caused her to write the book,

dramas of being in the mummy blogging sphere, and also about everything that's going on at the minute in terms of lots of conversations around race, racism, racial inequality, and white privilege. So we kind of touch on that and how that's coming across on social media. I really hope you enjoy this episode. And as always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye. Hello and welcome to Adulting. Today I'm joined by Candice Brathwaite. Hi. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been a long time in the making, I'm dying to get you on. But for people who don't know who you are and what you do, could you give us a little introduction

to Candice? I'm a mother of two. I think many would know me as an influencer, first and foremost, a mummy blogger. I'm the founder of an online initiative called Make Motherhood Diverse. And I'm now an author. My debut book's out, been out for a couple of days now, I Am Not Your Baby Mother. That's me in a nutshell. You have really kind of taken, especially the social media world, by storm. Like you really offered a different perspective. You say it like it is.

You put your boundaries up on your page. There's lots of color there. You talk about money. I love the like forthrightness. And it's a real like strength for the woman to be able to be. Boundaries is something I'm learning about. But you really are so about that on your page. When you started up your page, I know you talk about it a bit in

the book but what was your mindset for this what was your angle did you know that you were going to do make motherhood diverse what were you really hoping to achieve with your platform and where do you feel like you've got to with it oh I hadn't thought about make motherhood diverse but I I I came to social media completely and I I always want to be honest about this because I know some people are like, no, I just got lucky. The aim of the game was always to be self-employed and self-sufficient, always. And I saw that social media was a way that I could make revenue and look after my kids. So that for me was always the end goal. The secondary goal was really making waves in terms of diversity and inclusion and trying to

really just squeeze my way into a very, very wide space. It was hard and I didn't always think the two could go together. There were some points I thought, oh, maybe I should dilute my blackness and I might have an easier time of it. Or there were times I was like, no, if I'm all the way in myself, I then just have to admit defeat and go back to a nine to five. So I've been up and down.

And I think I would say it's only in the last year that everything seems to have gelled together really well. But it's not been for the faint-hearted I'll say that no and obviously there was lots of other drama that went on with another now kind of ex-mummy blogger that wrote things online and that was a huge undertaking um for anyone is that is that something you spoke you have written articles

and stuff and graphing things haven't you about that and and how do you think that changed people's perspectives because I think that was actually reported on in the right way and that's probably one of the first times we've seen um a conversation like that really be reported correctly calling out the racism do you think that do you think it was seen fairly yeah I do I do I think the media online and and in print were sensational at taking the situation to task um and what that situation did for those that don't know I was trolled in a racist manner by at the time one of the biggest mummy bloggers in the UK. She was going on a chat forum pretending to be someone else and she got rumbled at the back end of 2019.

What that did is it absolutely blew the lid off this very fake, shiny top layer of this influencer space when it comes to parenting and as someone who you know came into the space and was very different and I've always spoken my mind what I found to be hilarious is in some respects I've I've come out like the last man standing and that's only because I've always approached that space and my work with brutal honesty I do not have a second of my day to waste bullshitting. And so when someone that so many thousands, almost millions of women looked up to turns out to not only be someone else, but someone who is then doing horrific things to their own community. I think that scandal really made everyone pause and think about the term influencer. Think about who they're choosing to follow, because it's not always what meets the eye.

That's what that taught me for sure. I completely agree. And I think the other space that you're starting to elevate, which is really interesting, is this conversation around women making money. Because often it's the misogyny that people don't like influences is because it's often women often making a really good income. Whereas you're saying it's not mutually exclusive for me to earn my money from my page and provide really useful information, fun pics to look at, talk about my family. Those things can coincide and that's an interesting thing to see did you always want to talk about money I know I want to talk about how you speak about it in the book as well because you you really thought about motherhood you really question how much this is going to cost me and you kind of always face

finances is head-on you talk about how your parents talked about it with you I wonder if that's something you want to see more of or if you think that it is getting elevated especially when it comes to women and money I think it is getting elevated I follow this great woman she's been on your podcast actually Vespod her her platform's called Vespod um I can't remember her name but Emily yes um the way she speaks about money specifically investing because I think there is great conversations about equal pay. You know, women fight for your promotion. What is still really thin on the ground is teaching women in plain English how to grow their money. That's what I want to know. I grew up, you know, in my early years, I was all right. And then I went to live

with my mom, who because of bad mental health I went to live with my mom who because of bad mental health was not the greatest with money I have been the 10 year old hiding in the bathroom from a bailiff and I just didn't want that for my kids and I learned really early on that in order to make more money I'd have to be frank about what I wasn't making what I wanted to make how I was going to do it and I think sometimes women don't understand the most powerful step you can take is actually saying it and putting it into the atmosphere and writing it down like I know people are going to be like oh my gosh you're such a weirdo I have um I have an old checkbook and at the top of every year I write what I want to make in the year on a check

and I carry that check in my purse for the entire year and since I've been doing that I make that sometimes double but it writing those things down and just having that mentality of um abundance when it comes to finance is so so important and I do think women are starting to feel that and and they're starting to admit they they want to learn more about making their money grow yeah I love the idea about the check it's one of those things like manifesting like once you speak into you kind of it's always in the back of your mind and even if you don't realize subconsciously you're working towards it so I guess I've been talking about women generally but you're you're a black woman and so a lot of your work takes that extra level of edge I guess

because people are constantly going to be scrutinizing you and looking at what you're doing and this industry as you said especially with mummy bloggers but I don't think you love that phrase in relation to yourself it's not diverse and the stories we heard as you talk about in your book which I'm going to ask you to give insight to for people who don't know what it's not diverse and the stories we had as you talk about in your book which i'm going to ask you to give insight to for people who don't know what it's about it was a space very much dominated by middle-class women middle-class white women who had a very specific set of ideals a very specific family life and kind of spoke as if this was universal talk to me about where the ideas for I Am Not Your Baby Mama came from. Mother, I said mama, that's the American version, isn't it? And whether or not being in this industry,

was that the catalyst to make you write this? Do you think you always had this book in you, even if you weren't an influencer? I would say I always had a book in me. Before I even opened up an Instagram I used to work in the marketing department at Penguin Random House and uh it was about 2015 the term influencer wasn't yet in vogue but I most of my day was spent calling up bloggers seeing how much they were charged to feature a book on their blog or whatever and the the prices they were quoting me I was

literally going home at night thinking girl you are in the wrong gig like they make on one post what I make in a week sometimes even in a month and so that was really the the catalyst behind um trying to get into the social media industry but with always wanting to write a book like I knew that this was going to come full circle somehow I just didn't quite know why now when it comes to I'm not your baby mother I don't want to write this book at all at all the motherhood literary market is very saturated as far as I'm concerned a lot of the material that I've been forced to endure for many years was very lifeless it to me a lot of motherhood books don't have a long shelf life uh early in my Instagram years the books were

all about getting miraculously drunk um just as you're putting the kids into bed like it just I just I just didn't like it and so there were five proposals before I am not your baby mother. And for one reason or another, they kept getting turned down. And Christmas 2018, I was just about to sign a deal, but then my commissioning editor got fired and that deal was gone. And my manager was like, Candice, listen, I know you don't want to do it, but I feel like everyone wants a motherhood book from you. And, you know, maybe just do it to get that book out there and then you can follow up with the book of your dreams. So in 45 minutes, I wrote the most blistering proposal. And literally I sent it to her and I and my husband and I was like, I'm not even spell checking that you guys can do what you want.

And they put it together and sent it out and we had a deal for this book in two weeks and I was like oh okay because I felt like I was calling people's bluff for some reason and so I went one step further I was like all right you want this book so bad we're gonna call it I'm not your baby mother there and I went home thinking right they'll never fall for that they were like cool we love it and I was like oh shit right gotta follow through but then as the writing process happened it became abundantly clear to me how this was always the book I was supposed to write and I tell any hopeful writer listening you know try not to run from the book that's gonna chase you and catch you anyway because

my god did this one catch me I love that story I always agree I think you'll have it with your work as well being an influence I'm sure you'll know there's times when you're like fuck this it's just not gonna happen and then suddenly someone you've been trying to speak to for like three years will pop up and be like hey I'd love to work with you and you're like what I just given up on you um but I also think you're right this book does it does need to be written I mean I haven't as I said I haven't read the whole thing but from what I've read and the bits that I've got it's it's a story that is the kind of story that we need you are talking you talk a lot about race you talk a lot about microaggressions but it's in your voice and it's from your lived experience and it's funny and it's wholesome and it's a true story rather than this painted one-dimensional idea of what it means to

be a black woman or what it means to be a black mother it is full of life as you were saying those stories weren't necessarily full of life I think that's what we're missing I think this book will be really instrumental in people understanding race and privilege right now with what's everything that's going on obviously we know that you're you was just saying to me before your page is getting more traffic because people are looking to to educate themselves how are you how are you feeling right now I can imagine it's a very difficult place for you to be in with everything that's going on I'm feeling I'm feeling hyper exposed I'm a a Pisces. So I like what I like. And I've got very comfortable with my say 50,000 platform. I've got a great management team who strategize with me to make me the most money from that space. So business wise, I was just happy. I was just comfortable. And in the last two days, I think I've gained 70,000 followers and I'm just a bit I'm a bit shaky I'm a bit and I keep trying to remind people like acclimatize yourself to my space because um

uh I'm I'm not new to this and I'm very frank and I'm very upfront um and and you know yeah but aside from being exposed I also understand that for my work to have the largest impact, this is kind of how it has to be. So it's a double edged sword. It's like, OK, I want to teach people and change the world, but I don't get to do that whilst hiding in a telephone box. You know, you have to step out into the light. And I'm very, I'm very nervous. But thus far, as hard as it's been, I've lived my life like an open book. And so I trust that those who join me on this journey now will respect the fact that you get what you get. Because I just have no airs and graces about me whatsoever. And I would rather my platform always be a little smaller, but far truer than have 10 million followers who if I breathe wrong, they're going to cancel me. You know, does that make sense?

That makes complete sense. And you're totally right in that if you start there with that level of honesty, then there's nowhere that anyone can break you down from. And I think it's an incredible place to get to, actually, because I think especially especially as women we're so conditioned to think that we've got to hold up this ideal version of ourselves not that you're anything less than ideal but you're very truthful and raw and you're not kind of sugarcoating stuff for the benefit of the male gaze or anyone's opinions but then I think we're all complicit in this patriarchy that wants us to be like oh I'm so quiet and sweet and you know anything do you know what though I always tell people that that is maybe the one place in my

life that I have privilege and in a very backwards way I am a dark-skinned black woman I I I'm I I'm never operating under the male gaze because the male gaze is never looking at me I am never the most beautiful I'm never the smartest I'm never the richest in in that gaze of the patriarchy so that means I get to live on the outsets and just run amok and I love it because I've never felt I need to be sexy because the world has never told me I was sexy. So I just I literally just get to hang out and like stay in tracksuit bottoms and be myself. And but sometimes I do think that is my privilege because I've never had to pretend to be anyone else because by proxy of my physicality, I cannot do that. And so where some women find themselves coming into themselves at 30, 40, like from my mid 20s, I just had to be realistic about what I was and adversity to my advantage and just go all out. Because to be fair, when it comes to being a black woman, no one's ever really expecting anything of you other than the most negative thing.

So I just I feel like the world is my playground in some respect. That is such that's so interesting you said that. And you just reminded me, I should have thought about this part in the book where you talk about how when you were younger like you never felt like you were attractive because boys never fancied you or never treated you in that way and that that was your first inkling to thinking I'm never gonna have children I I read that bit and I was like fuck that's that's so sad like that's yeah could you talk a bit more about those experiences as a young black woman? Obviously, I didn't experience that. Yeah. Coming up, like, so yes, there's racism.

But one thing the black community still struggles with is colorism. So the lighter skinned you are as a black person, the more you can pass as slightly exotic. You're held up as more beautiful. I can't pass as anything but like proper Caribbean proper African I also don't feel like I need to assimilate I don't mind wigs and weaves but it's just not to my taste so I'm also very black in the way I wear my hair like I'm very natural in that respect and that meant from a young age I was never deemed as attractive because we have such problems in in the black community these problems are framed by white supremacy and and European beauty standards but we have such problems within the black community that

a girl like me just never thought about getting married because no no one oh my gosh I used to get pushed out of kiss chase like I wasn't even allowed to play that game because in in in the space I lived like I was I was I was the opposite of beauty I was like the ugliest kid ever and so even thinking about kids I just didn't do it because from like six seven years old you know no boy wants to play kiss chase with you so even in your young mind you're putting two and two together and and getting the fact that oh well you know I don't really know how kids are made yet but I see people being together and I kind of think no one wants to be with me so that just gets sidelined and that is even talking about it

now it's so it's so deep and it's so very traumatic and already I've I've had videos from black women in tears over this book because they they've never been able to see themselves in a story and it's just really really raw yeah I I can imagine that it's it must feel so incredible because as you see what was said one of the things that in the book you're like you just don't see women like me we are have not been platformed our voices are not heard so these stories exist but they exist in these really small pockets where people don't feel like they can talk about it and colorism as you say is like a subset of racism where it doesn't get as it doesn't get as much airtime but it's just as insidious and it's just as cruel.

I'm sure you must talk about this a bit later on in the book, but when you're bringing up your children who have the same complexion as you, are you finding it that you're being so much more vocal? I imagine that you are. And do you think there are other tools apart from your book that feature these stories? Look out for young boys and girls who are dark-skinned? It's so funny that you would say, literally, as you said that, I've got my daughter's storybook. It's on my table. It's called Solway. And it's by Lupita, the actress. And it's illustrated by Vashti Harrison. And it's the first children's book I have ever had the pleasure of reading that specifically talks about colorism and reading it to my daughter has been a revelation because my daughter is slightly fairer than me and she notices it and I'm already trying to raise her to be a slightly fairer

black woman who doesn't go out and without knowing it throws a microaggression on the woman that looks like me her own mum and Solway she like she reads it and she's like oh mummy like you're Solway, Solway's like as dark as night and I'm like the dawn coming up and she's like but that doesn't mean that we're not all the same that doesn't mean that everyone shouldn't love us equally so I would say for any black people listening for any parent listening and this is this is perhaps the problem I was just about to recommend that book to only black parents no for any parent listening please buy Soulway it is absolutely amazing um what other tools uh so many I just think I don't think colorism has been explored enough yet even in literature to be honest um when I was growing up it's slightly spoken about in one of my

favorite books called the coldest winter ever by sister soldier but we still have we still have like such a long way to go with that conversation is there and i'm kind of clutching at the straws in this song so it's just something that i've read somewhere but is there something about colorism in that because often it operates within black communities that because we're still fighting so hard to get white people to even see black people and get rid of their own internalized white supremacy that to highlight an argument like an inter inter community argument might like undermine yeah completely and it's not just it is by no means just a black community issue colorism is rife in most if not all asian communities i lived in india for three months and colorism there it just brought me to tears each night.

Like this is for anyone that falls under the umbrella of BAME, colorism is a huge issue within our community. And that's the thing, right, with writing this book, I was, I still am really scared because I've had to reveal things about my own community that I don't I don't want going public I'm like writing these things I'm like I don't really want white people to read that because I don't want you to know that we have these internal struggles and so I was constantly writing thinking about the white gaze but the black gaze always won because I was like girl if you do not tell the truth this book is going to get into the hands of a 16 year old girl who looks exactly like you. And it's not going to change anything. So I really had to go against my innate feeling to remember the white gaze at all times and try to dilute some things.

I had to just bite the bullet and be like, you know what, this may piss off some people in my community, but I'm here to change and save lives and I and I think even the idea of being a pariah will be very very worth it if I get to do the job I hope this book does I I can imagine that it feels like great bravery because I mean even on my end I've done like a few posts talking about what's going on at the minute with the protests and George Floyd and all of the other atrocities and I'm getting bloody people having a go at me and so i can't even imagine it's just it's just ridiculous i can't imagine as a black woman how how you even cope with it and and how much shit you must get but then i hope that your community that follows you doesn't

really because as you said your boundaries are strong and and they know who they're following what they give they even this new community there has been no shit zero shit but I will say for people listening who either work in diversity inclusion anti-racism or anything quite triggering there are so many tools at your disposal especially on Instagram I have got my keywords set to the hilt. There are certain words you cannot use on my page. I have disabled the ability to comment on my stories. I've disabled the ability for you to comment on a post of mine unless I'm following you back. And it's really important that when we're speaking about things of this nature, that we always think about our mental health, no matter our race.

If you know you're about to rightfully publicly tackle a very tricky but important subject, do not hesitate to put those boundaries up. I think now I said 6,000 the other day, but I think my block list is at 7,000 people. And you don't have to speak to me in a tone that I don't appreciate for me to block you. If you followed me and I click on your profile and it makes me feel slightly funny, you're out of here. And I really want women to understand because we do this the most. We're like, oh, I've got this feeling in my tummy, but they've not said anything bad yet. So I actually feel guilty. Do not feel guilty.

That feeling in your tummy is there for a reason. And if a profile just says if a strange man was coming towards you in an alleyway, you would hot foot it. I really want women to start seeing their social spaces like their real lives. You do not have to entertain anyone that makes you feel uncomfortable and they've recently introduced this on twitter as well haven't they where you can't always reply to yeah which is amazing and it makes sense because as you say otherwise sometimes comment sections get completely drowned out and the important conversations gets lost i wanted to

ask you with blackout tuesday this is kind of what we saw happening. The whole Black Lives Matter hashtag was flooded with black screens and the whole conversation was censored. Did you feel like there was something underhand at play there? What was your opinion of everything that went on yesterday? I think it was so abhorrent because I think somewhere something got lost in translation the first thing I saw about Blackout Tuesday was right if you are white you should put up a black square um so that black content creators voices could be amplified right but then I think as time went on a bit like Chinese whispers is that part the most important part the amplification of black voices got dropped out of the message. And so then as the hours trickled on, black people thought, oh, I too need to post up this black square.

Then to add insult to injury, these black squares were tagged with the really important hashtag Black Lives Matter. There is advice for protesters on that hashtag. There is information about where to donate money on that hashtag. And within hours, all of that information was swallowed by this black hole. And I was, I still am, I think you can hear by my voice, I'm heartbroken. I'm heartbroken because it just completely defeated the purpose. And so my black square yesterday was a little bit different I thought no no no no I'm going to give you a black square with my honest opinion because this is what needs to happen that black square has been shared over half a million

times that post has gone on and taken wings by itself but I think that that post was then only amplified because perhaps I was the only person in my space even talking and it was supposed to be a group effort it was supposed to be for all of my black content creator friends who are who feel like they're silenced and feel like they're underpaid or don't feel like are underpaid and I just, I understand the sentiment, but it just didn't do what it needed to do. Yeah. And I mean, it's difficult.

I never want to ask you, um, how to do something or anything. And, and I'm as a white person constantly have to be reeducating and checking myself and what we're doing. But what was interesting was the people posting this black square and then no resources and not sharing anything else.

And it felt so performative. And even now I question every time I post something, is this performance? Is this ego? What am I getting from it? I can't imagine how frustrating this time must be as a black person to be watching it and thinking, fuck, we could do something here. And then it's not. I mean, you must feel like we've been here before so many times does this does anything about this feel any different does it feel like something is shifting do you feel like it's getting into the conscious of more people yeah absolutely I'm not going to

be totally dire um this time does feel different This is the first time I've seen global protests for one black man's murder. This is the first time I've seen that. This is the first time I've seen and heard such noise on social media. like yeah let's see what's happening in two weeks but I also must give credit to this moment something has shifted and for and you know even if things do become quieter in two weeks millions of people have been informed millions of people now know what books to buy what podcasts to listen to so I'm not going to take away from actually even in its performativeness how powerful this moment has been because even if that means 10 million people posted that square and only 1 million people really carry these tools and lessons with them that's 1 million people we have on the side of understanding that black lives are not yet seen as equal. That is 1 million more people we have in this daily fight. I'm not going to write that off. I'm not going to sit here and be like,

oh, you know, that's not good enough. That's brilliant. I have to say that is brilliant. Yeah, you're right. It does feel, it feels so powerful and it feels so big. But as you say, it might like dissipate. One of the things in your book that I want to come back to is with this movement and things we've seen, and I have to acknowledge as a white person that not every black person is going to be like, I think what you're doing is good. It's not a monolith. And I think the power in your book is reading this individual, really truthful, very funny story of a woman dealing with difficulties and all of these other things. I think that's what's going to help people to realize, oh, fuck,, we need to stop treating black women,

especially as though they are this one homogenous group. I imagine we must come up against this all the time, that more than anything, as a black woman, people just expect you to have one idea about every issue. Absolutely. And what's so interesting, he's not a woman, but using my partner as an example, he was raised in Nigeria. He was privately educated. He has been born in a place where he is the majority.

And when our relationship began, he didn't understand what a microaggression was. He was like, what's that? Are you sure you're not making this up? So what people need to understand is that there are black people today waking up alongside white people who, too, there are black people who are also only on their third day of understanding the damage that white supremacy has done. That is not me scorning them, but it's also the truth. And it's also me admitting that I don't I couldn't dare speak for every black woman. I couldn't dare. There are going to be black women who buy my book who have experienced none of it, who may even rubbish it and say, God, this woman's talking a load of folly.

That has not been my experience. And that is the truth. Because just like there are thousands of different versions of being a white woman, there are thousands of different versions of being a white woman there are thousands of different versions of being a black woman and someone commented today they put up a post and it ended with something like love candies breath wake the voice of black women and I was like no no no no no you're gonna go ahead and edit that right now that nothing makes me more angry because it lets white people off the hook it lets white people think oh I follow this one great black girl

Candice you know I'm doing my bit no you are not the same way you follow 50 white fitness influencers you need to follow a hundred black women because we are all gonna say something different we are all gonna educate you in a different way you it's there's not just one of us people for all of us it's never been that way at all and I think we're really seeing that coming through and it was interesting Leila Fassad did a post about how she hates the phrase diversify your feed and I completely understand her reasoning and she said her points and then I shared a post by another black woman who said here's some black women to diversify your feed so I shared on my story and she said her points. And then I shared a post by another black woman who said, here's some black women to diversify your feed. So I shared on my story and I said,

here's some people that you can follow to diversify your feed. And all these white women messaged me going, Layla Fassad said you can't say that. And I was like, I know I've read that post, but this black woman has said that. And it's really interesting how we get caught up in the semantics of trying to say the right thing, but we don't always, we aren't always listening to those, individual voice it is it is amazing to watch

social media I have to say it's actually really weird it's been I can imagine for you probably the one of the most draining times of your life and and but now I'm thinking about it and talking to you there is a conversation being engaged and and people who read your book will be able to further deepen that real closeness and proximity to understanding what it means to live as a black person in in our society as you say like in westernized culture with the book what who you said you were trying to keep always writing for the black for black voices and black minds did you have a specific person that you had as a reader or and and who was that and who were you writing for or did you try to admonish yourself of anything ago I've just got to get it on the page um I was the

reader in mind it was always a black 16 year old girl um I spoke about the book earlier about the coldest winter ever when I was at school I was about 14 that book was so popular our head mistress banned it and when I was writing my book I was like I want my book to be so good it just gets banned in secondary school it's not like not banned because it's bad but like kids are like not even focusing on their maths because everyone's passing this book around and so I again I had to like just shut off the idea of the white gaze and just connect with the person I feel is going to take the most from the book it's important that everyone reads the book but it is a young

black woman who is going to take the most from the book so you know that was always the person I held in mind while writing and are you excited when your daughter's at the age when she could read it are you are you excited to give her the book or is that something you thought about in the future yeah completely my dedication to my children at the front is so it's the first page and sometimes it's people's favorite um and because it's very true and should life go as I would hope I should die before them and I would like this to be part of my legacy to them that you know hopefully it's one of many books I get to write but I want them to know that you know mum is forever in their ear mum always has their corner and I really hope my

my daughter gets moments of being able to like puff out her chest and be like do you know who I am do you know who my mum is like I really want that because I I see I see um uh middle-class white women get to do that all the time I forget the term for it there's a term for it but you know I want my children to be able to use my name to open doors white people have been doing that for centuries 100% you want them to be able to access nepotism. Yes, that's the word. Yes. No, I completely agree. And it's something that needs to be, it needs to, you need to have access to,

which is kind of, I wanted to say this about the book, but I couldn't find out the right way to say it, which is you were saying it's a difficult time to be gaining and garnering an audience of people to be finding you. But I kind of wanted to say like don't feel guilty like think about this like slight leverage that you might be getting now it would probably wouldn't even match to some of the nepotism that white authors would have had for fucking no reason um

that is the truth and only yes we love it so I wouldn't yeah I wouldn't feel if there is any kind of like you feel like oh fuck it people shouldn't be looking I wouldn't I wouldn't worry about it I went to a really interesting talk actually at my boyfriend's work that was about um like gender equality in finance sectors and there was this woman who was like I don't care if some of the women that I hire aren't as qualified as some of the men because every single man before me got hired on the basis of the fact that he was so and so rather than because he was good at his job and everyone was like and I loved it I thought that was so true it was like sometimes like not that yours is that way around but like sometimes we've just got to be like

recognized where structures have not favored us and they favored people 20 times shitter than us you know yeah I'll completely which is you know why I was I was trying to run away from this book idea because honestly um so all the other proposal I did it was like oh come back when your social media following is bigger you know it just felt very like oh my god but I've seen white women write mummy books and they can't even write or you know you hear rumors about them using ghost writers and it was absolutely crushing and so you're right I'm gonna puff out my chest today I think um the fact that so many people who have this innate privilege or certain powers

mentioning my book maybe that is my little bit of payback maybe you know the powers that be are like girl you need to take a rest it's time for those powers to do payback maybe you know the powers that be are like girl you need to take a rest it's time for those powers to do the work because you know you've done all you can do so thanks for saying that actually I'm happy about that yeah no you're completely welcome I think it's completely true and you've done the work in the book as well if you didn't talk for like three weeks I think that would be fine there's enough to be getting getting through in the book and you spoke a little bit about how like traditionally within your family parents and other families like yours parents would kind of be like children have to be out of the room for these conversations we're having adult conversations now with your children how what what is the channel

of dialogue like like what kind of things of course you'll speak to them about race but when it comes to conversations around feminism and I know your kids are still quite young and like sexuality and things how are those conversations being shaped in your household and how has that changed between you know your generation and your parents and grandparents oh it's changed so much my my dad and my granddad always encouraged me to have an opinion but I think I think the females in my family would turn in their grave if they saw the way I was raising my children my children absolutely get to have an opinion and their opinion is held in high regard in our house so much so that my other half asked my daughter to like go upstairs and grab his phone and she sighed and she was like

oh dad like I just don't feel like going upstairs. And then I was just like, oh, like, come on, kid. Like, you're watching YouTube. Just run upstairs. And he was, he completely shut me down. He was like, no. She said she doesn't want to do it. And to be fair, I too am being lazy.

My legs aren't broken. I'll go and get it. And like, my mind just like blew open. I was like, yes. She, her own father is showing her in a really slick way. Like your word is, is bond. Your word is held in high regard. Your no means no. And especially that energy between a young girl and a man. I just, I really, I really really appreciate it um in terms of any conversation my six-year-old brings to me and trust me she brings a lot nothing is off she knows about periods she knows how babies are made she knows about um gay rights there's another great book

people should buy their kids it's called Julian is a Mermaid. And it really, in a smart way, delves into the idea of like being transgender and gender fluidity. Nothing, nothing is off the cards. I think with our young people, we may have to think about how we want to have a discussion, but all discussions need to be had for sure. I especially love that story.

Because as you said, no means no. That is the highest level of consent. If she's going, no, I know what I I want and I'm not fucking doing that right now and it's you know and that's not to say that if I say Esme go and clean your room she doesn't get to say no in that moment I understand I'm still her parent but there are situations like where we're just being totally lazy cop-out parents she gets to say that she doesn't want to facilitate our laziness and we have to be okay with that because when we go out into the when she goes out into the world a world who is not going to hold her in high regard a world who will not want

to take her word for it we need to know that we've done all we can in the house to remind her that she should always shout from the rooftop I think I think it's so admirable I'm not a parent yet but I constantly think about this when it comes to parenting because I think we always think our own parents did the best they could with the tools they had at that time but it seems to me now so much of like the way that my mum brought me up was like through using shame as a vehicle to teach me about sex so it'd be like be afraid of sex and be afraid of because it was that was her trying to protect me of the world that she knew of how women would be treated in the world and so I love hearing how the evolution of

these things change and how there's so much I think you have a great respect with your children which I don't necessarily think respect was a two way street before between parents and children. And again, you're not a mummy blogger, but when you talk about your children online, do you get that frustration of, I watched this from the sidelines,

not necessarily on your account, but other mothers telling, um, mom's explaining, I guess how to do things. Is that something you have on your page or not too much? And what's your thoughts on your page or not too much and what's your thoughts on your you're you're talking about your journey to being a mother it's not you're not

instructing anyone it's very much like as you say it's part memoir part manifesto it's not but it's not like this is what you do other people other people do speak like that what's your stance on those kind of conversations and how do you mediate if someone does try to tell you that you're doing something wrong or oh oh in my social space if you tell me I'm doing something wrong you usually just get bumped out I don't have time for that oh and then there are some times and this is really important tone tone especially in written word is a really hard thing to get across. And there are some people who I completely disagree with, who have approached me with such a gracious tone. I actually entertain their argument.

It actually makes me think about the decision I've publicly made. And so that's not to say that I'm going to shut down every kind of opinion but I have absolutely no time for those mums or parents who just want to be like you're giving your kids formula milk and that's so shit like gone by you I had sepsis with my firstborn if I had breastfed my child she would have died and so it's always really important to understand that there is context to every choice a mother is making. And just because we are in these social spaces, it doesn't mean you get to brain vomit your dull opinion on someone's page. But even where there has been that kind of conversation regarding breastfeeding, whatever, those who are vehemently against my choice about formula feeding when they have come with the correct tone I have entertained them and so although I'm not for telling people

what to do if you have a difference of opinion I think tone is really important I completely agree and obviously with your make motherhood diverse space that you created that would have been I imagine in response to being like this place is whitewashed and it's looking to the same and people aren't feeling like they're heard is that do you love doing that side of things is that something you find really um like fruitful and what are people's responses when they do get to feel like they're finally hearing a story that looks like their own it is make motherhood diverse is like my little drug it is it gives me such a rush to hear and and not just women there are people who call themselves people they um who come to that page and and and there's just a sense of love there's just a sense of community a sense of understanding a sense of willing to learn

um and I had no idea no idea it was growing to what it's become because I've worked with two major brands now who have used make motherhood diverse as like a consultancy space of sorts they are like we understand that you have the unique way of communicating with different kinds of mothers and parents within this industry. We are casting for such and such an ad. Will you help us? And it's amazing then to inspire those women who don't have massive platforms or would never have thought because they're in a wheelchair that they are deserving of this space on the billboard. It's been my utter privilege to say to them

this major brand wants to work with you and pay you this much money and just to just to see that just to see those parents and mothers and people be celebrated um oh like it just makes me it makes me cry almost it's such a wonderful space well it's lovely because you're not being a gatekeeper you're you're paying it forward despite having as we've already spoken about been not given the same application as people from the get-go and then you're even giving it further so I think that's I think it's so beautiful the one of the kind of final things I want to talk about because I love it is that in the beginning of your book you speak about about abortion. And I just love that that was in your motherhood book. I think it's so pressing. I think it's so important. I wonder if I could ask

you, what was it that made you think like, this is going to be where the story begins? And were you worried about writing about that? I don't think I was worried because I'm very public about my abortion. But I think for specifically for the black women reading, I wanted to lead with something like that because in our community of an abortion no less you speaking about your abortion publicly can quite frankly be the mark of the beast and I just wanted to lead with that story so that women who have had abortions or in any way in their life feel like a portion of their life is shrouded with secrecy, I want them to read it and understand that from the get-go, I do not suffer fucking fools gladly. I always tell the truth. I live in my truth. I am a very happy mum of two now, but I would have

hated my life as a mother then. And I just think it sets a tone that I've never read anywhere in a motherhood book. Like, oh, we're going to talk about being a mom, but we're going to lead with her not being a mom. I just think it was a way, it was like TNT to like blow open the barn doors and just set pace for the fact that this is going to be a little bit of a book with a difference and we really are going to deep dive on the things that maybe the world wants women to keep a secret and also to remind women that you are not your secrets there are so many women I know myself included who perhaps for many years have stopped what they thought was the worst of their lives getting them the best bits of their lives and it sucks because men don't do that. Men don't do that. Look at the bloody Cosbys and Epsteins of the world. Men never move thinking that the most fucked up shit in their mind, whether knowingly or unknowingly, is going to stop them from living their best life. Why do women do that? Of course, not to the degree of sexual assault,

but something as personal as an abortion is going to stop you from like, then going on and getting married or putting yourself to live a life online. Screw that. I just wanted the book. If my book could have started with someone shoving their middle finger in your

face that chapter was that I think it's so powerful and also importantly like in the narratives as you just said that we don't hear that if you google something pregnancy like I've had pregnancy stares before it's all positive it's like congratulations you're gonna have a baby and it's not it's never neutral and I would say that like every pregnancy probably is 50 50 I want it 50 I don't I don't I don't think that the majority of pregnancies are wanted and that is the narrative that we're fed unless you're like a teenager whatever when it's like then it's even more shameful but I agree with you that I think abortion is something spoken about more widely it's so common and um as you say like that extra level of shame if you are a black woman who's perhaps going to be shamed more than that to hear someone speaking about it there's been so

many occasions in my life where I've read something that I've never seen anyone put down before whether it's about like eating disorders or thoughts you've had about whatever and you're right to read it and see it and see someone have no shame is one of the most powerful things that you can do so I'm sure so many women will be really grateful that you did write that piece and that it's there for the world to see but what is there anything that you having read the book written the book and now that it's out is there anything else that you wish that you you could have included I know that's a bit of an annoying question no no and my my my copy editors everyone really praises me for this but I am uh

I I'm I I don't I don't hold my words like a kid I I am very like, how do we get to the point in the least workout possible? And so I am very good at leaving things on the cutting room floor and never thinking about them again. Also, even this book, I constantly refer to it as my surrogate child. I was pregnant for a really long time, goddamn 12 months writing this thing. And now it's out there. I've been the surrogate mum that has signed up for no connection. I don't get to see this kid. I don't get to cuddle it.

I don't get to lean over someone's shoulder as they're holding my kid and tell people, please don't judge my baby like that. Please don't. Although I'm Not Your Baby Mother has mother has candy's grass weight on the top the book never belonged to me it never like it's it's never mine it was never mine I write my things and I just hope they find good homes so for me I May, I think everything I wanted to say has been with me and has now flown the nest. And what a beautiful piece of history as well that you could reflect on if you ever did want to revisit. I just think it must be such a nice thing to have.

And I love that it's an amazing thing to be proud of. But to speak with such pride is the biggest reward, I imagine, for having worked so hard. Yeah, yeah. I thought, I don't know. reward, I imagine, for having worked so hard. Yeah, yeah. I thought, I don't know. No, I'm not going to lie. And it could perhaps be a possibility. I want to be a Sunday Times bestseller.

I like all that stuff. I love ego. I love Gucci shoes. I like stuff. And that's another thing women should be allowed to say. I like titles. I like, I'm a human. But also, I've lost lost stuff I've lost people and so I'm equally open to just the feeling of pride being the prize

and I am I am like I'm a I'm a Duracell bunny of pride right now no one no one can touch it to me I feel great but you should and I'm really smiling it's annoying that we can't see each other but it's it's so true that like you should get to enjoy and I think we lose this so often is just enjoying the feeling that we're feeling I'm really guilty of when I'm feeling really happy suddenly going I bet something bad's gonna happen and then you like miss out yeah on the joy honestly that is my my therapist oh my god that is my constant fight between me and my therapist because I've suffered such trauma from such early on such an early age my default is to lead with the worst oh there's a pain in my breast it's stage five breast cancer I'm

dying tomorrow because I've had such traumatic things happen to me it's my way of trying to protect myself I don't ever want to feel sometimes I feel like when really bad stuff happens to us it's sometimes the shock more than the actual thing and I've got into this habit of trying to believe that not being able to feel the shock will protect me but my therapist is like no all that does is dilute your rightful joy you cannot live your life like that and so this book coming out right now I'm really working with my therapist to just lean into the joy bad shit has happened and if you live long enough it will happen again but it is not happening now.

Is there anything else that you wish I'd asked you that you wanted to speak on? Not at all. I feel full up. Oh, good. So I absolutely love talking to you. I feel really full up and smiley too. If anyone wants to find you online or any other work, obviously buy your book. It's sold out right now, but you can still order it, can't you?

Yeah. They're going to restock like today. So you can probably buy it now. It's on Amazon. It's foils. It's waterstones. And I'm primarily on Instagram. My name is Candice Brathwaite on there.

Thank you so much for sharing your time with me and sharing your story. I've absolutely loved it. And I'm going to finish. I am not your baby mother. I gonna finish it today thank you thank you and thank you so much everyone for listening I will see you next week bye We'll be right back. his last parachute. I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning in an exciting live dealer studio exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. We'll be right back. 11 p.m. every day.