Adulting - #69 Friendship In Lockdown with Daisy Buchanan

Episode Date: June 14, 2020

Hey Podulters, this week I speak to author and journalist Daisy Buchanan! We discuss friendship in lockdown, friendship-breakups, friendship-flings and so much more. I hope you enjoy, and as always please do rate, review and subscribe. Thanks so much for listening, O xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hello, BottleTours. I hope that you are all well as usual. Today's episode is on friendship in lockdown. It was recorded a couple of weeks ago, so there's no reference to the current climate and I understand that this conversation um is stepping away from from that but that's only for this week we will be going back to talking about current issues in the next two episodes that I have but this episode is with Daisy Buchanan who is an author and her book The Sisterhood which I reference a bit is one of my favorite reads ever.

And she also talks about her new book, which is coming out, which is called Insatiable. But basically, it's just a really lovely exploration of friendship, friendship breakups, feeling lonely. I really hope you enjoy it. I think it's a lovely thing to listen to at this moment in time. And Daisy has just got the most wonderful voice. So yes, happy listening. And as always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Hello and welcome to Adulting. Today I'm joined by Daisy Buchanan. Hello,

thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on and joining me. And for people who don't know who you are, could you give us a little introduction to you and your work? Of course. I am an author and a podcaster. I host the Your Book podcast, where I explore the bookshelves of our favourite authors. And I've written books that include The Sisterhood, How to Be a Grown-Up, and my debut novel, Insatiable, is coming out next year. Amazing. I can't wait to read your novel. I absolutely love The Sistered, as you know, which is also the reason why I wanted to have you as the guest on this podcast, because the topic is all about friendship.

This podcast is being sponsored by Cedars, which is a non-alcoholic distilled spirit. And I wanted to ask you, in lockdown, I don't know how your drinking is going, but I kind of got a bit too into it and so I'm trying to now swap it out and have a few nights where I'm doing um a non-alcoholic drink drink that feels like an adult drink but it's not what about you have you had a similar journey in that vein yeah I think that's the way to go because it's so lovely to have a cocktail hour I think when you're spending a lot of time at home, you do want to have that pause. But a little while ago, I changed the way I drank. And I realized that

rather than just having one night a week when I didn't drink, that drinking really needed to be the occasional treat. So I tried to restrict alcohol to Fridays and Saturdays. But then I do like to have something in a glass with lots and lots of ice and a bit of lime or a sort of non-alcoholic cocktail at about six o'clock with something delicious to nibble on before dinner. I think it's quite civilized. So, you know, for me, it's much more about the ritual rather than, you know, the alcohol. And, you know, I really notice a big difference in my mental health as well. I think that's something that we've all got to be very careful of at the moment. And if I drink sort of excessively or if I drink most days, even if I don't get drunk, I feel quite low and quite slow in the morning. So having less

alcohol means I can appreciate when I'm having a drink and sort of savour it more. And then also just building a bit of time into the day where because it's you know we don't know what day it is we don't know what time it is it just helps to sort of separate things doesn't it yeah I completely agree about the idea of it being more about the ritual than the alcohol because I realised that sometimes I would go to have a drink because I wanted something flaky because all I drink really is coffee and water so then instead of thinking oh I could have I don't know anything with flavour my immediate reaction is to go for something alcoholic when that's not actually probably what I want I just want something that tastes nicer than than water so that's having the alternative that we still

don't feel like you're missing out I have to say I made a cedars cocktail the other day and I forgot for about 10 minutes it wasn't alcoholic and I really kept thinking god I feel really tipsy and I was like oh yeah it's just in my head it's amazing isn't it the power of suggestion I think as well that you can make a drink where it's not like overpoweringly sweet you know because sometimes I don't necessarily want um sort of a juice or anything you know that's fizzy in that way that it's just something that isn't alcoholic but also tastes quite grown up adult thing drink yes yes exactly that but I'm going to try and make a really good segue into friendship now. Whilst we can kind of use the placebo effect with alcohol, we can't really mirror the same

feeling when it comes to friendship. How are you finding lockdown in general? And more specifically, how is this transforming your friendships? And have you had any thoughts or ideas that have come out of this time that have made you challenge what you thought about friendship before something that I think has been happening is that I have tried to make more of an effort to be in touch with friends that you know because of geography I don't see as much as I'd like to um like my friends Charlotte and Amy Charlotte lives lives just sort of outside Yorkshire and Amy has sort of, you know, moved from London to kind of out to the east and they've both got little girls. And so it's really difficult sort of to get everyone together, but really just wanting to check in. And I think making sure that, because, you know, when you've got those distant friendships they can become a real like well you tell me all of your news and I'll tell you all of my news and think

that lockdown is I don't know about you but I've really got very little in the way of news and so you have to relearn I think how to just be with people and I know that now you know when we're allowed to see each other I'm going to make so much more of an effort to do that and not think, oh, but it's a long way. And I will have to kind of, you know, give up a whole weekend as well. You know, when I have been able to see people locally in a safe and socially distant way, I felt so much more nourished by it. I've got a real tendency to be lazy and think, oh, but, you know, I like my house. My sofa's here. I don't want to go anywhere. And now being really delighted, I live in Margate, so I can be on the beach as well in minutes and going and sort of sitting on the beach with people. It's probably not quite true, but I feel as though I've done that more in

the last two weeks than I have done in the three years that I've lived here, because it's just so exciting to see friends and again, to be with them and spend time and relax in a way where you don't feel pressured to just be like, well, here are all the exciting things I've been doing. But oh, I don't have to force myself to have exciting things to say because nobody does. You're so right about that. And actually, that's really funny. At one point, I think it was maybe like the third weekend lockdown. I did like a house party or whatever it is with my girlfriends. And we were like talking and all of us were like, I've got nothing to say. We were like, what have you been doing?

All of us like played Scrabble. I read a book and it was really funny. We were almost like racking our brains. We had this really weird moment where all of us hung in the air for a sudden and we're like, what are we going to talk about? And it felt really jarring. And then we were doing like more zoom quizzes and I did them with my friends from uni and we did all the questions are kind of around who said this who wore this what year was this and we were feeling so nostalgic for the things that had happened it was so emotional we were laughing like crying and we were like god we had we've had so much fun it's so nice

to just be with each other and telling stories rather than I think a lot of times you distract yourselves with friends who go to the cinema with friends or you'll go shopping with friends. We go to the pub and actually, as you said, like just sitting on a beach with someone or I've been like doing socially distanced things in the park. There's no need for any extra distractions. They are enough as a person. Just being with them is satisfying and satiating enough and I almost think we lost that a bit in the name of trying to make news or trying to have things to show that we've done I think I used to get quite caught up in feeling like I've got to make sure that I've you know seen this latest thing or done this latest thing and now it's it's completely been stripped back and I found that that's been a really raw and lovely thing that's been re-thrown

up like it's enough just to speak to someone You don't have to have a million things going on simultaneously. Do you think, how do you think your friendships are going to change post lockdown? Do you think you're going to be doing more of those beach walks and being outside and will it change the nature of how you get back into being with your friends, do you think? So I think that this has always been the case but I think lockdown has exacerbated this a bit I really struggle with spending too much time on social media and sometimes it's so lovely and fun and life enhancing but a lot of the time I guess I find it quite flattening and if a friend does have news to share and you have an interaction with them that's direct it's really really lovely but whenever I'm posts on Instagram and Twitter about what they've been doing I don't really

fully take it in and so I don't really spend hours and hours scrolling because it does just make me feel a bit strange and a bit distant and I think that's something that I'm going to really make an effort to sort of you know hear from people and have an interaction with them and make sure certainly that I'm not relying on, you know, catching up with people just by, you know, going on their Instagram and sort of checking and seeing what they've been up to. And I hope that's something that changes because I think, I mean, I've noticed that as well, and it can be difficult in some of my friendships where, you I'll feel really really guilty for not having watched someone's Instagram stories but it's just such a weird way of finding out what your friends

are up to so it'd be nice to I sound about a thousand I know but to have a bit more you know real interaction I guess yeah and it also it can kind of I used to go through phases where I'd almost feel like I'd seen everyone because I'd seen what they were doing online. And then it would stop me from reaching out as often or you lose, as you say, even the news thing. Like, I know what everyone's doing. So there's not that sense of catching up. Like, I wish, I kind of wish, now I'm going to sound a thousand years old, that we still did that letter writing thing where you had swathes of stories to tell and there was no immediacy to reply because I do think that kind of I don't know about you but I get a bit of whatsapp I don't want to say anxiety because that's probably the wrong term and it like minimizes it I get stressed sometimes on whatsapp because I really want to get into a good conversation but I can't reply right then and then I just never reply and I do think that sometimes technology can actually really disrupt the natural way that friendships work, which I think can be a lot more ebb and flow than the constant stream of conversation that technology encourages us

to have, which is why I think it is interesting that we've all kind of turned to FaceTiming and Zooming loads, which I didn't really do with my friends as much before because you could see them. And we do seem to be craving that more longer form, more kind of continuous long conversation rather than little snippets via WhatsApp going, how are you and what are you up to? Which actually in hindsight are generally really empty, but it kind of superficially fills that dopamine void of feeling like, oh, I've spoken to my friends. Is that something that you've felt has changed as well? Or was that, you said you didn't really try to do it too much. But what about with Zooming and FaceTiming and stuff? Are you feeling fatigued with that yet?

Or are you still keeping that up? I have a real love-hate relationship, I think, with the group chat, especially on WhatsApp. And that's the funny thing about, I think, you know, Zoom especially, that, you know, one-on-one, it can be really lovely. But in groups, sometimes it's really fun and sometimes I just feel a bit overwhelmed by it because it's not like oh someone um said something really wise on twitter the other day I think so I do look sometimes but if you are in the pub or in the park as an actual group if there's a load of you there's a sort of a natural you know peeling

off and there might be you know 15 people but you will sort of be in like threes or fours having mini chats within the big chat and you can't really do that on zoom and i think that's quite hard and sometimes again it's exactly that what you were saying the feeling of having caught up with people when you haven't really and i did um i was talking to a friend the other day and I said it's just occurred to me that because we're on this group chat every day I feel as though I know what's going on with you and you know we're checking in but I don't really you know we're just sort of telling stupid jokes and I think I know what you mean about that you know I think it's a it's difficult isn't it when we talk

about anxiety but that awful also overwhelmed and sometimes like really pointlessly I can feel quite excluded in a way that doesn't make any sense because no one is excluding me but just I think there's always you know a few voices that tend to dominate in a group chat and you don't quite know what to do with yourself and I think it's interesting those voices aren't necessarily the ones that would dominate in a real life chat. But, you know, getting that balance is hard. And it depends what day it is as well. And you might catch someone, you know, on an afternoon when they're bored and you're, you know, worried about things. The other part of it is that I think is interesting and difficult is that I think all of our emotions are so heightened right now. And I don't know about you, but I've been feeling a real mix of sort of,

you know, gratitude, very generalized anxiety, all this uncertainty, because no one knows what's going to happen. And I think that when you're having these interactions that aren't in person, they're all sort of weirdly flattened, and people don't necessarily always sort of see or say things as they're intended. So, you know, what might sound like, you know, a really great joke in person just sounds a bit rude or insensitive, you know, in a group chat. And even, you know, video calls too, I think there's a sort of pressure to almost perform. You know, it's like everybody, I think, does go a little bit weird when they have a camera stuck in front of them or or whatever and I think that I'm trying really hard to be very sort of compassionate and gentle about that and know that there are some you know difficult things from both

sides and if people seem a little strange or unlike themselves we're living through unprecedented times as we keep saying but also you know even you know a video call isn't necessarily the best medium for them the other thing yeah I completely agree with all of that and the other thing about zoom is that weird thing of if more than one of you talks it like silences you so it'll only let whoever's the loudest sort of thing talk at once and much like we're doing now I can't see your face which is really disconcerting because usually I'd react to your facial expressions or subconsciously with constantly kind of ebbing and flowing between each other's emotions that we're seeing each other's faces

and the same thing happens in a group as you say and so to have that completely dissolved and condensed into a screen that kind of technology pushes a voice forward I'm definitely a loud one in a group but I'm not on zoom because I almost can't be bothered because I'm like, I hate, I find it really awkward when you get cut off and then everyone has to stop. And then it's just really, really disjointed. I want to ask you, there's a bit in your book that's kind of relating to what we're talking about. Would you find it really weird if I read a bit from The Sisterhood? Would you find that really odd? Please do.

Go for it. To be honest, it's a little while since I wrote that. So remind me how it goes. OK, because this is I want to I'm going to read it and then I'll say why I want to talk about it. So you said keeping one friendship going can be horribly hard and it becomes exponentially harder when that friendship is part of a whole. Groups become bigger and more complicated than the sum of their parts. My sisters have taught me that it's OK to have separate connections in the same squad. You can worry and obsess over who your friends over who your other friends are friends with.

You can become a slave to status anxiety and worry that you'll never find a true friend who passes the impossible test and proves their eternal love. You can panic about not feeling very close to anyone and never finding the friend who will volunteer to braid your hair. Or you can love the one you're with. You can take your friendships moment by moment and instead of counting them by lifetimes, measure them by afternoons or not measure them at all. It's okay if your squad feels loose and insufficiently sisterly, or if your biological sisters will not be corralled into providing photogenic proof of their love for you on their Instagram account. If you can find a way of enjoying someone's company, you can be their friend.

And that's enough. I literally think, one, it's so beautiful and so perfect. But one thing that is interesting when we talk about friendship is we talk about the joys of it. But one of the main things I get from my Instagram is mostly women telling me they're so lonely and they don't have friends because one, I think the performative element of social media and even us chatting right now about all the Zoom calls that could, I guess, make people feel like, I haven't done that. And in this book you said wonderfully explores all the different types of friends and the nuance of friendship and actually someone who maybe thinks they don't have you know really good friends may have way better

friends than how someone else views it what how long did it take you to come to this realization because I think we all go through life at some point having a wobble feeling like either we don't have enough friends or we don't have good enough friends or do you think that's still something you come up against I wonder if you just expand on that because I love that bit of the book firstly thank you so much for reading that um so beautifully it's really lovely to hear and I think it's something that I need to be reminded of even though I wrote it um I think that when I was in my 20, I really aestheticized friendship and felt a lot of pressure, but also I was at a time in my life, I think when everyone around me, we all had quite

a lot in common. Most of us were, you know, single or not in especially serious relationships. Um, I don't think any of my close friends had children. You know, friendship was based very much around sort of, you know, going out. And I think I possibly never really questioned the fact that that was going to change. And then, you know, later, I had a really difficult period when it was just after I met my husband, and he wasn't my husband when I met him um that would be weird and we uh you know we'd moved in together some of my oldest friends people I went to uni with who I you know really felt as though I spent all of my 20s with they had new different friends you know people they've met and their jobs they'd become very very close to and I remember feeling so strongly that it was like school.

I had, and I think most people have this experience at school at some point of feeling excluded from the group. complicated sort of three-way friendship where I was a kind of a deputy best friend or like a second best friend um for a pair of very sort of I suppose volatile friends and we were within a much wider group and you know this was all at secondary school and it took me what felt like ages and ages to find my place and find my way and I always felt like the weird one and my sense of humor was a bit offbeat and the things I loved were different from what everyone else loved. And then I sort of, I learned to make people laugh. And there was a sort of glorious summer where I felt so embedded within the group. And so it was also joyful. And then, um, because we're 13 and this sort of thing happens when you're 13, I became the primary best friend

and then I was dumped for the other best friend. But I also felt completely shut out of the main group. Now, looking back, I realized that we were all confused and unhappy and hormonal. My friends at the time had all sorts of other things going on, issues and problems that meant that they had much bigger concerns in their life over, you know, whether I was their best friend or not and how included I felt. I just felt so, so lonely because when my new proper best friend, and I was very excited about having a best friend, it was like a romance really. When she sort of dumped me, it meant that I was out of the group as well. And a lot of that I think might've been in my head that everybody said, you know, oh, I don't understand what you think the problem is. You know, I almost felt like,

well, I knew, I knew that I was being, you know, put out of the group. And also there's a weird loneliness of being in a group of friends where everyone has a special friend within that group and you don't. And also I felt as though I was being told that my feelings didn't count, that not only was I heartbroken, I was also crazy. And so years and years later, as an adult who, you know, felt quite secure and established in lots of other ways. You know, it was, you know, my husband was, you know, also probably my, you know, my primary best, best friend. And I wasn't insecure about anything with him, but having this feeling as though I'd been really within this group and then other people were coming in and I was being kind of sidelined. I think a lot of that was in my head, but it made me feel just,

you know, devastated and as though I might be going insane. And I found it really, really difficult to talk about as well, because, you know, I thought someone might say, look, you're in your late twenties, you should be over this stuff, you know? And also I had other friends. It wasn't as though it was just that group. There was one time when they didn't do this on purpose. It was a weird collection of events and people deciding things at the last minute, but they all went on holiday without me. And I didn't know until I seen this picture on Facebook of everyone else in Portugal. And I had a real like, oh, oh, this doesn't feel good at all. And, you know, what was lovely is I, you know, I went and said,

so I hope I'm not being oversensitive, but I saw this and I felt pretty bad about it. And, you know, everyone said, look, we made a mistake. This is not, this looks bad. We never, ever, ever, ever set out to exclude you on purpose. However, we completely understand why you'd feel that way and why it looks that way. And so it felt as though that time around everybody dealt with it much more maturely, but I still am very, I think, hypersensitive about a feeling of being left out. I hope that makes me a better friend. And I do try to make sure that people always feel very included. I don't know if I'm successful in that or not, but I think that, you know, that's the upside of having that experience. But, you know, I'd be stunned if I found anyone who'd

never felt a bit left out. And I think that sometimes, you know, social media can feel like that kind of happening on a grand scale it's interesting how hearing you telling those stories and again I completely empathize with that thing of when you're in your teens and you're suddenly as you say like at the forefront and then suddenly you're pushed to the side and it can be really confusing and I also agree with the jokes not landing correctly I think when you're getting to know yourself it can be really hard to know what your place is within that group and you can kind of try out different personalities and then they might fail until eventually as you say you get into one where you feel comfortable and then you're not the flavor of the month next month but what I find the most interesting is it's so

comforting to hear you say that and yet I think we all find it so shameful to think that we're left out that we never want to admit it and we end up internalizing it and often that is what can cause rifts in friendships because I know that I harbored feelings of feeling left out for years when I was younger wouldn't say anything because I thought it was just too embarrassing it was too excruciatingly cringe to say you're leaving me out and so instead of doing what you did and you know addressing it which is definitely the thing you should do I would would kind of be annoyed about it. And then I would almost, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, create wedges in friendships. And I think that is because of the romanticization, especially with female friendships. I know you talk about

a lot in the book is where we assume that it's going to be this lifelong love that we've had from the age of five. And you're going to be, it's going to be like Britney Spears crossroads. Or do they stop being friends? And I can can't remember but there is a lot of shame attached to friendship and being able to speak on that which I think I can do now is something which I still think we really really struggle with what do you think really makes that shame manifest do you think that is within all of us and do you think men have it the same I don't know if I the men that I know in my life don't seem to have these same issues of feeling left out or maybe that's a toxic masculinity camaraderie hiding that. Sorry, there's a lot in that section. That is all really, really interesting. I do think that for guys, you know, if it's hard for us,

and as you say, there's so much shame and pain to actually saying, I feel left out, I feel lonely. I honestly think it is 10 times harder. I think there are so many more rigid rules about, you know, what being a man is and what it looks like. And I know that the, you know, the men I'm close to, sometimes I get quite low level grumpy. So me and my husband have lots of couple friends and that's a weird thing as as well. And not something I've experienced directly, but I know that it happens. And it's kind of a weird and lovely upside and not something I ever expected to happen, but something that brings me a lot of joy. Is there a few couple friends we have where this might be a case where I'm like, oh, it's

lovely. It's brilliant. And maybe someone else is going, no, it's not brilliant at all that's all very left out but it's a very easy connection and it's a lovely gang to be a part of and I feel as though it's not like you know the wives will get on the husbands are tolerating that each other or vice versa it feels very you know like a proper lovely gang however I do know that it's been really really really easy for me and the other women to just you know all talk and keep each other in the loop and be the the organizers and the social secretaries and the guys do it for sure but it's just a little bit

harder and um I don't know if he'll mind me saying this or not but I know that you know my husband has been a bit almost self-conscious about it I suppose in a way I think and I think he's very happy to you know keep conversations going but I think with men there's perhaps more of a fear of rejection especially for a new, that it's much harder to just sort of go up to someone and say, hey, let's all hang out. But another thing I think about a lot is, especially now. So back in, I used to have a job, Bliss Magazine, my first journalism job, the teen magazine. I loved it so much and made lots of really, really good friends there. And I think we were all so close because it's the kind of job

where you're just so passionate about what you do. You can't not be really. And then when I left to go freelance, I thought, well, how on earth do you ever meet anyone? I've got uni friends and school friends and work friends and where are the other friends and it has been a joy and a thrill and a privilege to meet so many people and make so many friends you know friends from moving to Margate lots of internet friends who've become real life friends other work friends from the project you do it's astonishing really I never saw that. But I do sometimes have to remember that if we just kept every single one of our friends all the time and stayed that close to everyone we met, then we've just not got capacity for that. I'm sure you've heard of the, I think it's the Dunbar

number, which I'm going to quote without fully understanding entirely who Dunbar was, but I think he was a sociologist who established that we can sort of have connections with something like 120 people. I need to check that and look that up, but not really any more than that. And I think, you know, that's everyone from the sort of the vague acquaintances to the, you know, the really, really intimate friends. And I know, you know, as I get older, for example, I know that, you know, I don't have children. I've got friends who do. And that's such a huge, huge thing to go with. And, you know, if you're pregnant at the same time as someone else, you can become close and develop bonds because going through a similar thing is so powerful and I

think I think you know big life changes are like that you know I've made lots of friends people who've moved um you know from London to Margate just because that's another fairly big thing to do to establish life in a city and then reroute and it does mean that you've got things in common. And lots of the things that you have in common in those instances are about, you know, not knowing stuff and being vulnerable together and making mistakes together. And I think that's a really, really powerful bond that definitely when I was young and insecure, I felt as though people didn't want to be my friend because of what I didn't know and what I couldn't do. And as I get older, I realised that's actually, you know, for lots of people, that's quite

attractive. And what really attracts me to people is anyone who's got the confidence to say, no, I'm vulnerable and I'm wobbly. And I don't know anyone who's not going to present a front. It's being real, as the kids say. Yeah, I agree with you in that I didn't realise how many kind of generations of friends you would accrue over time and even kind of revisiting friends. I've got friends from school who I've kind of rekindled friendships with. We've come almost as close to where at school, but then there was about five years when we barely spoke. And it is a lot more messy and a lot less linear than you imagine but I guess what is your it sounds like you're amazing at making new friends but I know that this is something that again I get asked time and time again and I do wonder if in this even in day

to day life in fact I think we're almost more disconnected I think in an odd way it might be easier to make connections now because everyone is admitting that we feel you know that we want to make new friendships and we want to to have people to speak to but in day-to-day life if the majority of people are working nine to five job and they're busy and they're doing things I have so many people reach out to me going how do I make friends and short of me suggesting come to my book club um I I think I'm it's been like you I wonder if it's maybe by nature of our jobs that we do meet so many different people at different events. And it's like you're constantly being thrust into different arenas. I wonder if in a more straightforward job, if you don't necessarily get on with your colleagues at work, there isn't that much room to make friends.

Do you have any advice on how to make friends in your 20s? Because I know it's something that so many people really struggle with, ors or 40s I guess any age well I'm sure you're good at making friends because you do this you know you have to you host a podcast and you interview people and you have to establish connections with all kinds of people you know very very quickly and I well I like to think that you interview people that you want to talk to and get to know a bit better. So there's some natural curiosity there. But, you know, honestly, I think that working as a journalist has been the best thing I could do in terms of being a friend and getting to know people. And I don't think you can be too curious. I think curiosity is such a wonderful quality. And as

it's been often said, isn isn't it that interesting people are interested people um the best way to get to know someone is to ask them about themselves um and i think we can feel quite self-conscious about that and be quite anxious about being invasive but actually people do truly you know love to talk about themselves and they've got an interested and sympathetic ear I think the other thing as well is that it's very difficult to especially now I think sort of balance you know quantity and quality and I've been through periods and well even you know when I moved to Margate to go on about that but I had a very weird feeling in a way that I think if I'd moved somewhere else, I wouldn't have gone through this in the same way. But when I moved, there was a, in the way, you know, every so often there's a place where they'll be like, this is the place

to go. And it's full of all these, you know, cool people and arty people and all this stuff is happening. And, you know, it really, really felt like school because lots of new people had come here at once. And I really, really angsted about not being popular enough, about not being good at making friends that, you know, just, I don't know, not really knowing what I was doing. And over the years, I've realized that the friendships I have made are so precious and you can't just you know go out like first Saturday in the new place but ah here are my 50 new best friends that's that sorted it does take time and I think as well as I get older I'm a little bit kind of pickier I suppose or I've

definitely had a tendency in the past to make friends very, very, very, very quickly. And then think, oh, actually, you know, you're perfectly nice. We don't have as much in common as we thought, or I was so anxious to make a friend and so anxious for us to have stuff in common that I've sort of fast-tracked this when really I could have held back a bit and taken it a little bit slower. And also the number of people that I've met here where I've thought, oh gosh, I'm not sure about you or I don't immediately get that like best friend forever vibe. And we have become close very slowly over time. And that's been much more thrilling and much more exciting. So I think it's a bit like, you know, falling in love and something

that you do learn a bit through experience is that you're tempted to go all in. And I think that when I felt the most lonely and the most anxious, I've been more likely to go all in and be like, oh my God, we have to be best friends now. And actually, you know, it's worth being a little bit patient and taking a breath and remembering that. Because I've also been just so anxious about not being likable enough and I've always forgotten or not so much now but I have forgotten that it's a two-way street that you have to like them too I think it's a hangover from school that you know you you can see how you feel about a person it's you know friendship isn't something that you win. It's mutual. a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m every day 19 plus and physically located in ontario gambling problem

call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca select games only guarantee void of platform or game outages occur guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m eastern restrictions apply see full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com please play responsibly first of all i don't think anyone would ever say that you're not likable i think you've one of the most likable people ever but it's so funny that as you're saying that, I was thinking, God, this is what you're talking about, I guess, is people pleasing and wanting to get that immediate gratification for someone liking you. And as you were saying it, I was thinking about how I've been talking about this lately when it comes to relationships. And it's exactly what you went on to say about romantic relationships is, you know, you're so desperate for someone to like you that you will make it work in whichever way. And that's like people pleasing, which I was so guilty of so long. And we always think, I think it's especially as women that, you know, the more

affable and the more likable and the more amiable that we are, the more that people will like us. Whereas actually, it's been a really long journey for me learning that having boundaries and, you know, I was one of those people that would probably meet you in a taxi and tell you all the worst things that happened to you within five minutes and then you kind of bond over this extreme splurge of and actually that's really unhealthy and it's interesting I think that it's a hangover from school but I also think it's that entrained idea of what women are supposed to be and that having a bit not necessarily hardness or coolness but you know as you say it's both of you've got to like each other and I was saying this about a

date but when we go on a date we always often think we've got to present our best selves and it's like we're being interviewed and we're constantly thinking about do they like us do they fancy us but actually it should be sort of flip reverse we should think are they impressing us are they who we want to be around and as I think you've got to give that same thing to friendship because I've definitely had almost like friendship flings, like you're saying, where it's like exhausting and you feel quite drained and it can have that same kind of effect as a romantic relationship. Is boundaries something that you're exploring more and more when it comes to friendship and things as you're getting older? And was that ever something you

were aware of when you were younger? Absolutely absolutely and I have been that person for sure that you know thinking and again it's that confusing genuine vulnerability with almost sort of throwing yourself under the bus and being like oh you know I got dumped and I fell over and now I'm in a hole and it's all hilarious as a sort of of, you know, it's a real, it's really, really hard, I think, especially as women to learn to value and our experience is enough to not just give them away. I've had a lot of help from my queen, Brunot Brown, who's very, very, very good on this.

And something that I think she said, and also another podcaster and life coach that I adore, Brooke Castillo, she talks about holding space for people not to like you, which does sound a little bit Californian, but oh my goodness, I find that expression so helpful and so valuable. And what's very complicated sometimes for me is I sort of put a lot of myself out into the world. My work is quite personal. And so it can be difficult for me to sort of see the difference between people not liking my work and not liking me and also making friends because I do things that I'm sure it's the same for you

is, you know, I seem very, very approachable and, you know, I want to be, you know, helpful and kind and approachable. And, you know, if I can do something for someone, I want to do it. But recently, in fact, this week, two things happened and I had two very difficult conversations. And one was a friend asked me for a favor. But for a long, long, long time, I felt that our friendship had become me doing favors. And I finally, you know, and the thing is, you know, I say I snapped. I didn't want to snap. That was the point. I kept, you know, ignoring this boundary because saying how I was feeling and how used I felt just made me feel so horrible and uncomfortable. It was just, you know, I kept thinking, well,

it's much easier to do the favor than to have this conversation. And it wasn't even that the favors were, you know, difficult errands. It was more, I could really, really feel that, you know, chipping away at my self-esteem that that was sort of all, you know, what I could do was all that was valued. And so obviously I tried to express that as calmly as I could. It went down very badly. And I thought, well, I've got to hold space for this person not to like me and that I've got to value myself and my contribution more than me being used to this person when that's all I am. But then the other thing was a friend who has been going through a really, really difficult time saying very, very gently that, and not in as many words, that she felt as though I wasn't really showing up for her. And I had this sort of,

you know, days of agony where I was really like conflating the two things. I'd be like, I'm just a terrible person. No one likes me. And I thought, well, no, actually, I think in the first instance, I was right to hold my ground and let go of something that just wasn't serving me and not to be, you know, vindictive and not to want further reaction, but just to be like, well, no, I've've made my peace the fact that I'm not prepared to be useful in the way that that other friend wants me to and that is fine and on I move and I wasn't really getting anything from that relationship either that was sort of nourishing me and it serves both of us better if I call time on this and with the other, you know,

my other friend was absolutely right that, you know, I want to, you know, show up for this person and be present. And this is a, you know, beloved old friend who's shown up for me so many times. And it's a really, really brave thing for her to do, not to, you know, call me out or be angry or, you know, complain about me to other people,

as far as I know. But to say, look, I need you and you're not here and I need you to be. And it was humbling and it was painful, but I felt so, I thought she'd done something really, really courageous. No one ever likes being told that they have made a mistake and they've got to own that mistake and say, yep, you're absolutely right. But, you know, but I was right. And it felt like I was very impressed by how mature she was. And, you know, it made me want to kind of raise my friendship game. Hey, poddlters, just a quick break to talk to you about our sponsors, Cedars. They have a new pink rose flavor, which is the perfect new summer drink to enjoy with a friend or send to a mate it's fresh fruity and zingy but what is cedars it's a distilled non-alcoholic

spirit made with exotic south african botanicals and swedish water it's there for you when you want a drink without the hangover or when you fancy something deliciously refreshing but feel like you should be a bit more conscious of your alcohol intake it's for people like me who want to always feel like they're part of the party even if they're not drinking cedars isn't just for you if you're teetotal or if you're pregnant although it is for you too in fact it's for everyone add it to your weekly shopping list and make your week a little bit more mindful again i love talking about this i think it's such a hard it harbors again that shame feeling but I was actually writing something the other day and it was I was talking about a similar thing where I had a friend who said the exact same thing to me she was saying you're not recognizing you know

what you're doing in this situation I remember at the time it felt really jarring it makes you feel like you can't breathe it's horrible feeling and then I realized actually that takes someone to really love you to be able to say gently I think that you need to know maybe adjust your priorities right now or recognize because I think you have to really care about someone and really value them to be able to because it's such a difficult thing to say to someone um and as you say like it's hard to hear but people around you who are willing to be honest with you in in those kind of ways those are are really, really strong friendships, I think. But as you say, on the other hand of that, not every friendship will work.

And there's friendships that I've had for a couple of years, and then we tried and it just didn't work. But friendship breakups are something we all go through. But I think there's a really weird thing where you kind of never leave them behind I want to ask a few for this but there's been friendships that I've had and they just haven't worked out but unlike boyfriends who eventually fade into the ether and I can't really remember what they were like so I'm in a new relationship those friendships kind of hang around like little ghost friendships and I do sometimes they do sometimes come back to me and I reassess you

know what went wrong was it me and I wondered if, you know, what went wrong? Was it me? And I wondered if that, oh, sorry, I just got an email, if that was something universal that you've maybe felt as well. the door is always open. And it was interesting when you talked about those like friendship slings. There was someone who I had a very brief, intense and quite painful friendship sling with, and I saw her posting on Instagram about, and this was, you know, years ago, I think that we sort of knew each other. And she was talking about how she didn't say, you know, specifically, you know, when I met Daisy, I was going through a hard time. she was talking about how she didn't say you know specifically you know when I met Daisy I was going through a hard time she was talking about that period of her life and I thought I think we were just both of us at that time you know we weren't good for either of each other and it wasn't us it was you know circumstance and sort of you know those things really really not meshing and we couldn't show up for each other as friends because we both had, you know, too much going on.

And maybe I was a little too immature and sort of, you know, distracted by things. And whether, you know, there was a bit of me that thought, I wonder if we could ever try again or if that period was just too intense and mad to go back to but I think there are very very few people who I've been friends with who I wouldn't be sort of you know delighted to you know just to bump into or sort of you know see for a drink or catch up with actually I was on a different podcast um the other day the um alone podcast with Francesca Spector. And a really old school friend sent me a message to say, I listened to this podcast and it was sort of so nice to hear you and, you know, I wish we'd kept in touch better. And, you know, and we saw,

she's a friend who we did stay in touch with for a bit during our 20s and that you know she's been living in America you know sort of life takes over a bit you know she's got a baby now you know there's sort of a bit of a drift and again I think there's that fear that you know it's difficult when such a lot of time has passed to sort of to pick up where where you left off but I was just I was so so so happy to hear from her and we had a really really good chat and you know I hope we're going to sort of stay in touch and I think I can't you know there's not really you know been any moments where I can kind of look back and you know with with regret I think every single friend I've had is you know has taught me something

or you know brought me some joy or been a pleasure to spend time with. And there are definitely friends who've caused me an enormous amount of pain too, but I am aware that that's what humans do. I do think that I've been too willing to give away a friendship, but that really comes back to my anxiety about, you know, not being liked. And I think that if someone wants to be my friend, I can really, you know, I think rejection is such a horrible, horrible thing to go through. And I never want to put anyone through that pain, but, you know, not because of, you know, I'm a fantastic, kind, generous, wonderful person. I think I've been doing a lot of the time as a kind of insurance and as I get older I want to be a little bit more comfortable with the idea that you know

I do not have to like everyone and not everyone has to like me because friendship is incredibly precious and it can be made up of all kinds of different things. But it's, I think, you know, going back to what you were saying about people feeling, you know, lonely and isolated and as though, you know, their friends, you know, they've not got the good friends that they want to have. I think we do have this myth that it is, you know, friendship is abundant and easy and entirely nourishing and good. And maybe we need to have a bit more respectful friendship. You know, it's really, really, really, really rare. It's the last line of Charlotte's Web that always makes me cry. It's something like, it's very, very rare to find someone who's a true friend and a writer. And Charlotte was both. both oh there we go um but yeah true friends are rare and they're

precious and I think that it's easy to fall into a trap of just wanting to accumulate and accumulate and the the way to go is to look at you know what is rare and precious about the the friends you have and the connections you have I think you're completely right it should be about cultivating rather than accumulating and I think that is something that you start to settle with as you realize especially when your time becomes more precious and you've got more going on and you realize that having lots of connection lots of disparate people doesn't mean that you're having strong connections. You spoke at the beginning there about how someone reached out to you because of by virtue of the fact that you are in the public eye and as you spoke about before before, you do feel like you're putting yourself out there, and I certainly get this. And if you don't mind, I'm going to read it one more bit, but I promise I won't do it again, because I think this is such an important point about friendship, and I struggle with this still sometimes.

So I'm going to read this bit. It says, if you're a woman in the public eye, millions of other women are probably judging you i often write about reality tv and i'm stunned by the usually smart compassionate women who tell me they can't stand it because they hate seeing other women with fake tans and false eyelashes when i start to unpick it i realize it isn't about straightforward bitchiness but chronic insecurity as women were made to feel as though we're under under constant and terrifying levels of scrutiny it isn't that we just have high standards to meet we have a high standard to meet we We need to be slim, clear-skinned, thick-lashed and pouty, intriguingly sexy without suggesting we could ever, ever show our nipples in an emergency or during a dare. We need to be knowledgeable about current affairs without going on about it, smart enough to run a business but

not so smart as to frighten the horses or potential husbands, and able to drink a single glass of red wine without demanding a second or allowing our tongues to turn black fruit pastel we need to have children but not too many we must have sex but we can't really talk about it and we're not meant to have visible sore stains on our jumpers and and then you talk about this a bit more and then you go on to talk about amy pola wrote in her book yes please um that if women have one motto or refrain that they should act on their brains, it should be good for her, not for me. And it's all about how we have to allow each other as women space to be whatever we are, whether that is, as you talk about, like Emily Ratajkowski being really performatively sexy

or someone else who is maybe really into being really smart, not that those things are mutually exclusive, but as sort of their brand, if we can use a word. And reading that, I found really interesting because I think one of the things that we struggle with, especially as you get older and you're starting to find your feet, maybe in your career, what you're doing, is we feel like there's not enough space, that if someone becomes something, then we no longer have space for ourselves or our identity. And I think this is the patriarchy at work kind of telling us, you know, it's keeping women in check, as you say, with that long list of things that we have to meet. There's that really small paradigm of beauty and intellect and chasteness. And I think that this can really

impact us and how we see ourselves because we constantly, there's a phrase that Florence Given always says that's about how men are watched and women watch themselves being watched um and it's about how like we see ourselves through the eyes of men and we often look at other women at how men would look at women I feel like I'm being really confusing but what I found really important about this passage is remembering that no one is helped by feeling jealousy or envy or by holding each other up to the same standards that we feel like we have to be held to um everyone needs to read the sysfix it's got so many good bits like that but i wondered if how after you wrote that did you have many people coming forwards and saying god this is exactly how i feel because

again it's one of those things that's tucked away at the bottom and we don't necessarily want to admit that we might feel this jealousy or when we do feel annoyance that someone's fake town of false lashes as you say we maybe won't interrogate its feelings and sit with them and recognize where it's coming from. I think jealousy is fascinating because it applies to our friendships. It applies in the wide world. And I think that something that we do is it's such a painful, shameful thing to admit because, you know, there are people I'm jealous of. And I feel as though if I were to say that out loud, it's as though I'm admitting that I know I'm sort of,

I'm less than them. I'm not, you know, successful enough or pretty enough or any of those things. And actually, as soon as you can say out loud, oh, I'm jealous. And I, I wonder why. And you don't, because I think lots of the bad feelings that we experience, the worst feeling isn't the feeling itself. It's the additional feeling of fighting that feeling away and not wanting to feel it and feeling shame about our shame rather than just, you know, going in with your spade and head to it and saying, oh, that's weird that I feel like this about this

person. And, you know, as many, many, many people say, I can't remember who's the first person that, you know, if you spot it, you've got it. And if, you know, we genuinely don't care, you know, if we don't feel that someone else's, you know, behavior or the way they look. I think we only react in a jealous way if we feel as though it's somehow a judgment on ourselves. And we want to kind of get in there first and say, well, I wouldn't want that anyway, even if we do. And I think, you know, the lovely thing about really going in and exploring that is that it dissolves all of the toxicity of that feeling. And exploring jealousy can really help us to kind of, you know, become stronger and give us a clearer idea of what we genuinely want for ourselves rather than resisting it. And yeah,

and I do think that something I've been thinking about so much over lockdown, I think it's on Twitter account, Mumsnet Madness. I love how I said, I'm really trying to limit my social media. And then I keep referring back to these things I've seen on social media. But it was a woman who I think was talking about her sister-in-law. And she was saying, am I being unreasonable? As is a popular Mumsnet thread. So I'm having an awful time during

lockdown. So I think maybe her husband was furloughed. She was worried about money. She's really like cooped up with her kids. And she was saying, it's not fair because my sister-in-law lives in this sort of mad hippie commune and they're all having a lovely time. They're just having pizza nights and swimming in the lake and the kids are running wild and she's putting it on Facebook. And I followed all the rules and I've done everything right. And my life is still rubbish. And this stupid hippie who I've always felt a bit sorry for because, you know, she lives such an unconventional life and at least, you know, I'm doing all right by society's standards.

She's having fun and I'm not having fun. And it's not fair. And I think so much of our jealousy and pain is that I think so many of us unconsciously do the things we feel as though we should do without really understanding why we're doing them and just really, really resenting them. And we feel, you know, we become martyrs for no good reason. We feel as though we're not somehow allowed to follow our joy and our bliss and that's shameful. And then when we see people who are doing that, you know, we judge them because it's so much easier than saying what we feel, which is, well, I don't understand why I

wasted my life doing all these things we didn't want to do particularly and followed all the rules when this other person is doing that. I've noticed that a lot. I mean, I'm absolutely, absolutely not an influencer. And I'm not saying that in, you know, having done tiny bits of like, you know, video and things. And, you know, I really, you know, I struggle with posting on social media. I don't know what to say. And I think the people who have been able to turn themselves into an organic brand, I think there's nothing more powerful and more impressive. And I think there are lots of people who are really quite cruel and judgmental because they think, well, it's all right for them just getting paid to be on the internet.

And there's no real acknowledgement of the fact that it's very, very difficult and very gutsy to make that work. And it's really hard. It's much harder than people who don't do it realize. And so rather than say, gosh, I would love to do that, but I don't feel that I'm interesting enough or attractive enough or I'm not sure I'm confident enough in myself for people to be interested in what I have to say,

it's much easier to mask that sort of jealousy and anger towards the people who do, if that makes sense. It makes total sense. And I think it comes down to this fundamental thing, which I kind of talk about all the time, which is we have to do this. And I've spoken about it probably in every lockdown episode. Someone's probably like, oh, my God, shut up. But this period of time allows us something which is time to investigate who we are. And as you say, I think we can, when someone's really confident in themselves, if that's an opposition to how we are, it can make us feel concerned that suddenly what we're doing is wrong because they've found this specific path to feeling confident. So I need to emulate that when that's not at all who it is and once you get to the point where you feel quite contented in yourself you don't have to love your body or love yourself or anything

because I think that can be actually really radical and very difficult but just knowing who you are knowing what you think knowing what you stand for and knowing what makes you happy and knowing that that might be in opposition to someone else's list of things I think that's a really good place to keep you steadfast and kind of protect you from those feelings of jealousy or protect you from suddenly getting concerned about how things are going on. And I think that could be a really important ballpoint to starting new friendships as well because you're at a point where you know what you're looking for and who's going to

enrich your life and everyone fits together very differently. And there'll be some people who would hate to be on my phone because they might find me really annoying and other people who would get on like a house on fire and as you say it's that ability to let people not like you and not let that take away from all your positive qualities I think what just was like a little roundup there's so many things you've mentioned there which I've learned about Benny Brown and she talks about vulnerability and things but as sort of like the ballpoint things actually at the end of the book they're really funny you give like advice to your sisters but they're quite like tongue-in-cheek and funny things but if you had real advice to give to women perhaps who are struggling to either make new friendships or

to really value the ones they're in is? Is there any like particular couple of things that you would say you could almost work on in lockdown just in order to realise that you're enough and your friendships are enough? Because I think fundamentally, that's what it comes down to. We're constantly doubting ourselves. I think I've said this on multiple podcasts before, but I might have to google this quote but it's something along the lines of all of man's um here we go blaise pascal according to the internet which is not always the most reliable source um so blaise pascal all of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone and i know I know that until you learn to love yourself,

no one else can love you. And that's really complicated. It's really, really, really, really hard to love ourselves. It doesn't come naturally, but also perversely. I think that if you can be content by yourself, you will make better, stronger friendships. Because I think that a lot of our problems and lots of my problems and something that I've really been exploring over the last 18 months, I think, come from my generalized anxiety and my desperation to numb any bad feeling. It's what I was saying about not even the feelings themselves, but the feelings before the feelings, just thinking, oh, I don't want that. I'm going to eat something or drink something or find a person to distract myself with and take the edge of this because anything

is better than sitting by myself and thinking about things. And actually sitting by ourselves and thinking about things is the best thing we can do. And as soon as we, you know, start to really practice that and get good at that, we can learn to stop. I think we start by tolerating ourselves and then we like ourselves and then we love ourselves. And it really is the work of a lifetime. We have to start to do some of that work before we seek people out who are really going to, you know, bring something special to our lives, you know, that I think we can't make friends if we're only doing so because we're so terrified of being alone. I love that quote. And I think you're totally right. It is definitely that. I absolutely love talking to you. Sorry, I've just realised we've been talking for absolutely ages. I'm so grateful

that you decided to come on. I wanted to know, I know that we're in lockdown, but apart from your upcoming novel, which please remind us of the lockdown, but apart from your upcoming novel, which please remind us of the title, and of course, The Sisterhood, which again, I'm just going to tell everyone to buy. Do you have anything else that you want to point people in the direction of or anything that you've got coming up

that you want people to know about? So if I may do a wee plug, Insatiable is published by Sphere. At the moment, it's set for spring 2021, but you can pre-order it and I'd be delighted if you did. It's about a young woman called Violet who has broken off an engagement, but also become horribly and painfully estranged from her beloved best friend, Nadia. And while she's estranged and seeking connection she becomes part of a thruple with a very toxic complicated couple who seem very glamorous and exciting but always not what they

seem it's very very very explicit and there are loads and loads of jokes in as well so I'm really hoping that if you've been um enjoying normal people that that book might give you some of the, how do I put this delicately? You know, the intimacy of that book. Also my podcast, your book, we're doing some shelf isolation specials,

talking to guests about, you know, how they're reading in lockdown, whether they're able to read at all. We've had some really lovely guests on. We recorded with Curtis Littenfeld, one of my all-time favorite writers. Sarah Pascoe, a comedian I adore, had a brilliant Lauren Bravo, a good pal of mine. Coming up, we've got Sally Hughes, Sarah Manning, Claire McIntosh, Louise Doty. So yeah, I've just been using this as an excuse to talk to all of my favourite authors about books because books are also, as lots of my best friends are two-dimensional

and live on paper and they're people I'll never meet. I'm really enjoying the Casalette Chronicles at the moment and finding lots of new best friends in those pages. So yeah, I think that's it. And also if you're new to alone time, reading is a great place to start. Oh, 100%. And definitely listen to Daisy's podcast. I know that lots of my listeners are avid readers as well. And I know they'll adore it. I've really loved episodes.

And I love the premise of it, that we learn so much about people from what's on their shelves. And that could be more true of that. I'm sure, maybe you didn't, but the Twitter spat with, can't even remember her bloody name now, but they had all those awful books on their bookshelf and got completely condemned, which was quite an interesting conversation. But alas, your podcast is with much lovelier people with much lovelier books. And I would definitely recommend giving

that a listen. Thank you so much, Daisy, for coming on. And thank you to everyone for listening. And I hope you've enjoyed this episode. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much Daisy for coming on and thank you to everyone for listening and I hope you've enjoyed this episode. It's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much. Thanks so much to Cedars for sponsoring this episode of Adulting. I absolutely love talking about friendship. Why not get together with your friends socially distanced of course over a Cedars pink rose. I've been absolutely loving having it in the week just to tickle my fancy and it definitely does. Mix one part Cedars with three parts tonic for the perfect summer drink bye fandu casino daily jackpots guaranteed to hit by 11 p.m with your chance at the number one feeling We'll be right back. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only.

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