Adulting - #71 Black Beauty & Racism with Ateh Jewel

Episode Date: June 28, 2020

Hey Podulters, in this episode I speak to beauty-journalist, director and producer (to name a few of her roles), Ateh Jewel. We discuss her career, racism in the beauty industry, the history of a 'fashionable' tan and much, much more. I learnt a lot from Ateh in this conversastion and I think you will too, so If you want to support Ateh's new venture - her foundation - then click the link and donate here > https://www.gofundme.com/f/21lx1u4thc?utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer&utm_campaign=p_na+share-sheet&rcid=adecb351f6c94b64b3ad8061f081ee28. Thanks so much for listening, as always please do rate, review and subscribe! O xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hello, poddlters. I hope you're all doing okay in the middle of this very hot weather. I'm sitting under a duvet to record this and I can tell you right now I'm sweating a lot. But onwards and upwards to the episode. This week's episode I speak to Ate Jewel. She is a beauty journalist. She's also creating her own foundation. She also is a producer and creator. She has so many accolades after her name which you will hear when she introduces herself. So a complete inspiration. And we discuss her main role which is within the beauty industry and beauty journalism, and how that kind of

intersects with race and racism. So we talk about black beauty and how black women so often aren't valued in society and so aren't provided for. But as she is also a historian, she goes into a lot of history on these issues. And I learned a lot from her. And I'm sure that you will too. I really hope you enjoyed the episode and as always please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye! Hello and welcome to Adulting. Today I'm joined by Ate Jewel. Hi there, how are you? Lovely to be here. I'm good. It's a lovely sunny day. I feel like everything's feeling a bit more positive than it has been. What about you?

Yes, I mean, the past two weeks have been heavy and traumatic and change, real social justice, and we can see what the next steps are. Good. I'm so glad that you're in like a bit more of a positive mindset, because as you say, I can imagine it was so difficult. For people who don't know who you are, what you do, could you give us a little introduction to Atte? Of course. So I'm Dr. Atte Jewell. I am a beauty journalist and I'm a producer, director. I'm a diversity advocate. I've been in the industry for 20 years, writing for British Vogue, Sunday Times Style, the FT, Telegraph, Marie Claire, Grazia, Guardian, Observer,

and everything in between. I also have an award-winning production company where we make short films and documentaries. We're working on a feature film that we're financing and getting out next year. I'm a twin mum. I am launching a brand, a beauty brand with a foundation, which has, you know, I formulated with all my soul and love for darker skin tones, because I think there's a real gap in the market for clean beauty, for colors, which really honor and turn up the volume on darker skin and melanin. And I, you know, everything I do is based on wanting to make things better, wanting things to change. I'm a mum. One day, God willing, I'll be a grandma. And I think it's my responsibility to make things a little bit better than what came before me. That's such an incredible roster of things that you do. It's

a really, really long list. And obviously, as you say, like you're mainly, I guess your main area that you're focused in is beauty. And you said how positive you feel like things potentially are going to start changing. But being a black woman in the beauty industry, could you tell me what that has been like? And for people perhaps like myself who are white, who perhaps wouldn't even necessarily notice because of ignorance, just how whitewashed the industry is. What has that been like for you and your work? And how do you think it might start to change? Well, beginning of my career, I worked at Tatler. And to get in the building, you'd have to go to the head of HR to kind of get the blessing, like blessing from the Pope, that you can go in and work. And I was asked, you know,

you've got a fantastic education. You have a 2.1 in history from Bristol University. I went to Catholic Girl School, a very prestigious private school in Knightsbridge. And I was asked, do you feel more white because you're so well educated? And, you know, I could have been the angry black woman that the stereotype of me is. I could have chucked a chair. I could have been angry, but I knew I had to keep it together and answer to get in the building because I can't change anything from the outside. So I said, I don't think education has a color.

You either are educated or you're not. She then went on to ask me what I thought about the gang situation in South London. I said, I have no idea. I live in Mayfair. You know, my dad was a diplomat. I lived around the corner from Vogue House. And it's these things of having this negative story put on you just based on the melanin in your skin. You know, I'd walk into beauty launches. Not only was I the only person who was a black woman, I was the only person who wasn't blonde. There weren't even brunettes. There were a couple of brunettes and they both hired me, ironically. So it was just, you know, my face didn't fit. It never fit. I'd go to launches.

I'd, you know, there'd be six, you know, in the beginning of my career, there'd be six foundations. The darkest color would sort of be a light Asian skin tone. And I, they would have to say to my face why they weren't catering to me. So my very presence, I felt, I felt was an act of activism to tell me to my face why you think I don't matter, why you think I'm not worth being marketed to, why you think there isn't a market. And I've been told outrageous stuff from, there's not enough shelf space for darker colors. People of color, I don't even like saying POC.

People with darker skin tones don't have the money to buy at a luxury price point i've had i've heard it all and it's total bullshit yeah it seems absolutely one awful to think that people can treat you that way like we know that black people especially get treated as if they're a monolith and they're one demographic and as you just right so rightly pointed out it's just entirely not true and the idea that there isn't even economically a reason to supply foundations or makeup or whatever for people of different skin tones when evidently that would be bought and we've seen that with Fenty Beauty and other brands that do sell a broader range. Yeah she was a case study she made like 100 million in media value in 40 days. Mintel reports tell us that, you know,

black consumers spend eight times more than their white counterparts on beauty. The black dollar and pound is worth 11.3 billion. But it's more than just numbers. In the same way, people have racism or prejudice in the beauty industry. It's the same way I would say about sexism in women. You know, to understand racism, I think it's much easier to understand it through the prism of sexism. And when I tell you that women have only had the vote for 100 years, that is also crazy. Okay. You know, Margaret Thatcher was not the first woman in the history of this country that could have led a democratic parliament to victory, to success in a powerful way.

I don't accept that. There are millions and millions of women who would have been capable, scullery mates, servants. You know, but they were kept down by economics, by gender bias, by misogyny. And in the same way, it's not just about money. People have a real bias and think you're not worth it. So they don't even want to look at the numbers. Yeah. And I guess what we're talking about is how obviously women lack privilege. And then if you're black or a person of color, you're even further oppressed and marginalized. And I think what's so interesting with when people don't want to accept privilege especially white men who perhaps come from a lower socioeconomic background you're from a super privileged

background and yet because you're black you were treated as though you were a completely different entity to what you are and that I think sometimes privilege and wealth get conflated as if they're the same thing when actually systemic privilege and how rich you are often aren't actually necessarily that interlinked. And I find that that's something that we come up against a lot when people have white fragility or don't want to accept their own privilege because they assume that you can only be privileged if you're rich but you're a well-off very educated um black woman and just because you're you're black you then all of that privilege that I would have as a well-off white woman doesn't apply to you have I explained that well exactly perfect it's not just like you said it's not about when I talk about white privilege, it's not about money. It's not about economics. It's about based on the pigment in my skin. I am assumed to be wrong. I am assumed to be economically, socially depressed.

People put a narrative on me that doesn't fit. I'll give an example. My friend, she has a teenage son. She's a black woman. Her husband's Italian. Their son is mixed. And he was a teenager just like I think a couple of months ago. And he was in Knightsbridge just hanging out with his friends, shopping. And his friends who were white and they don't live in the area, they weren't as wealthy as him. They came to visit him near Arras. And a police officer stopped my friend's son, you know, turn out your pockets.

What are you doing here? He, because of how he looked, he must have been up to no good. He must have been there to mug people. He was there to cause trouble. His white friends who were with him, they were not asked these questions. They were not stopped and searched. They were not asked to turn out their pockets. He was completely humiliated in front of his friends. And, you know, he was the one who lives around the corner from Harrods. They were coming to visit him. And that was their white privilege, that they were assumed they were not getting into any kind

of trouble. They were not there to cause trouble. So that's what I talk about privilege. Not money, but just a narrative put on you. You're always given the benefit of the doubt. I'll give you another example. You know, when we all were allowed to fly, I was on an easy jet and I was in speedy boarding. And the woman's like, oh, this is speedy boarding, madam.

As if I couldn't afford the extra 20 pounds. And I was like, yes, this is speedy boarding, madam. As if I couldn't afford the extra 20 pounds. And I was like, yes, I'm in the right place. Thank you. And because I kind of slapped her in the face of my privilege of not being coward, she punished me by saying, well, hand luggage doesn't fit. Can you please test it? And she made me jump through all these hoops. And I said, I'm a frequent flyer. I use this bag all the time. I've never been asked to test it. And she goes, well, I'm asking everybody. And I said, I'm watching because it would be really interesting to see if I'm the only one who you're asking to test the hand luggage.

And surprise, surprise, I was the only one, she asked. That is what I'm talking about when I talk about privilege. Who do you think you are? It is just so infuriating to hear you tell that story it's just like makes your blood want to boil because it's like I don't I don't face that and especially when it comes to police things I kind of know which is awful because I know that if if the police officer came up to me I would because I'm white and this is why white feminism is kind of so dangerous I know how to like weaponize my femininity and get away with stuff like I just don't feel

threatened by police and that's not fair no exactly and it's you know it's a game that we have not set up there is a lot of things that you have to cope with, like, you know, body issues, the male gaze, a kind of level of perfectionism. You know, growing up, everyone I knew had some kind of an eating disorder. It never touched me in that way because I knew I was never going to look like Kate Moss. That whole world and expectation wasn't even put on me. So I wasn't even bothered by that. But I knew a lot of my friends were put upon in that way and had these expectations. And, you know, if you look a certain way, if you have your roots done a certain way, you have power.

Everybody knows that there's an unwritten rule. If you can be a size six to eight and be blonde and have a power blow dry, doors will open for you. And that is a pressure as well which is not right i'd love to talk about this a bit more because candice breathwakes spoke about this on an episode with me where i was talking about operating under the male gaze and she said i'm a dark-skinned black woman i've never that's probably the only liberation i have is that i never felt like i had to just succumb to this idea of chasteness and like all of these pressures. And I found that so fascinating.

But it's also, even though there is a massive like difficulty to contend with, as you say, as a white woman, it's also horrifyingly awful that we don't value black women's beauty in the same way. And I've said this before and it's really awful to say, but when I was younger, I remember knowing, like believing that white women were just more beautiful, not because they'd ever looked at a black woman and really interrogated whether or not she was attractive. I just was absorbed this information, probably from mainstream media being so whitewashed or I don't know where it came from. And now that I'm older, I'm absolutely flabbergasted. I just wouldn't think that at all. But I wonder if you could speak about how that impacts you as a woman to not be just not be deemed as everyone wants to feel like they're beautiful so

that must be so scarring and really difficult that's such an interesting question I mean you ask where you get that from look around you in art in advertising in media you know people who look like me are maids and servants or crazy best friends or kooky or funky, never powerful, never the leading lady. And who wants to be a loser? Nobody. I've said that often in my career, I felt like Mammy in Gone with the Wind to Scarlett O'Hara. I was only there to pull the corset and make people or titles look really good. I was never on the masthead of any of the titles I spoke about when I introduced myself. I was always a workhorse, not a show pony. And in terms of sexuality and being seen, you know, as a black woman, I'm invisible a lot of

the time, especially I'm dark skinned. I have 4C coils, not curls. I have a juicy West African body. I have huge boobs. I've never seen images of myself as a sexy, powerful being before. You know, I love Love Island. It is my, it's my absolute joy. And I think it's fascinating. I know people are very divided, but Love Island, I think, is like a modern Chaucer's Tale, where you see people from different worlds and backgrounds coming together. And, you know, they came in for a lot of backlash in not having anyone who was, you know, any black women or men, and then they kind of like stepped it up and then you know you look at the colorism the girls were on there who were kind of fair-skinned with a looser curl a more desirable and fetishized you know I remember the was it the Irish Nigerian PhD student who was on there and she had you know she was up against Arabella and when it came to choosing there was a moment where she looked completely deflated

because she knew she wasn't going to get chosen. And there was a look, if I could freeze frame it, that is the look of what we're talking about now. Where Arabella looked back and went, as if he wasn't going to choose me. Come on now. And that look just sums up everything we're talking about. You're right. I forgot about that series. But yeah, one day she was amazing. And I remember I remember feeling so yeah I remember feeling so outraged one because she was

really clever and I love women that are really not like got anything but I really like it when women are academic I really find it like that's kind of women I hang out with so I was I love her she's really smart she's really hot and you just knew that she just wasn't going to get picked and you've got to call a spade a spade and recognize that we do not champion black women or the beauty of black women in this society and it's it is just a hangover from everything in the past and it's institutionalized racism and watching it play out as you say it is kind of some like fucked up social experiment where you can see all of these the microcosms of society coming

together and basically just playing out all of these invisible rules that we all live by without necessarily realizing i know it's it's it's just so ingrained in us it's so toxic we don't even know where it's from and just to like I don't want to embarrass you but just even our language do you know that spade is a is like the n-word no that's a regular if you call that it's a very very old n-word so when you say call a spade a spade even that is kind of like it's yeah yeah it's it's in our language we don't even know it it's like fuzzy wuzzy is what you know um i was yeah a spade is a very old old n word so it's called a spade a spade it's like it's just even that phrase is offensive because of that you know i mean we don't even realize it it's in our

language it is all around us it is toxic thank you for teaching me that because I didn't know that at all. No, I mean, I've been at launches of huge beauty brands where I've looked at a product shade name and gone, ooh, you know, I'm a historian, which means I'm a bit of a smart ass. You can see the threads and themes of everything, of, you know, of what we think, of how we think. You can see the roots of it. And I picked up this lip gloss by this massive American company,

and it was called Fuzzy Wuzzy. And the color is a kind of browny orange. And I thought, oh, my God, they've named that Fuzzy Wuzzy because it's kind of browny orange. It's based on a Rodolphe Kittling poem where he talks about Fuzzy Wuzzy Bear. And, you know, everyone's heard of fuzzy wuzzy bear it's quite old-fashioned you know i'm 42 but fuzzy wuzzy was literally the victorian n-word okay it was used to describe the enemy who they were fighting in the sudan and in africa

and they were called fuzzy wuzzies and you know i thought i looked at this i thought they don't know this is literally like calling your product the n-word and um i told the you know, I looked at this and I thought, they don't know this is literally like calling your product the N-word. And I told the head PR, I went, oh, my God, this is terrible. I'm going to feed back to head office. Never got changed. Oh, my God. And that's all I think. And like, you know, nutmeg.

Ask any woman who has darker skin. They are fed up of being called these reductive food names. Brownie, nutmeg. Ask any woman who has darker skin, they are fed up of being called these reductive food names. Brownie, nutmeg, espresso, chestnut. As soon as the shades get darker, it turns to food and it turns really reductive. And nutmeg, I don't know if you know, nutmegging, you know, in the deep south on plantations or, you know, in the Caribbean under the, you know, British watch, you know, men at dinner parties, they'd have their port, they'd have their cigars, and then they'd go out into the slave quarters and they'd rape all the British boys, women and children.

And that was called nutmegging. So it's like, would you like to have a cigarette? Would you like to have some port? Would you like to have them, you know, rape people? And that was called nutmegging. And so when I see nutmeg on a shade that looks like my skin color, it tends to shiver down my spine. But we are not taught any of this in university, in school.

We don't know any of our history. You know, as British people, we do not know our place in the grand scheme of slavery and oppression. Because, you know, we all look in America but British hands are not clean and no one is there's so many things I didn't know but I have noticed once I became aware of this kind of language these like covert race this covert racism we have within ourselves I do without meaning to and I catch myself don't now I will be speaking to a black woman on a podcast or in work and I'll say you're strong or I'll say something like edgy or I'll say these words that maybe I would say

them with someone else but I when I say them I suddenly I'm aware and I have to really question like am I saying that because that's the word I mean to use or is that because I associate those words with blackness like what is my actual reasoning for saying it um and it does become it makes everything have such a deeper meaning I just want to ask you is your doctorate in history what's your doctorate in well I was very um grateful and thankful I was awarded an honorary PhD last year by Solent University in media to honour all the work I've done in terms of being a journalist in my film work. And yeah, so it's an honorary PhD in media from Solent University where I lecture. It's fantastic. That's amazing. That is so cool. So when it comes to this idea of beauty now in your beauty industry and what's happening, and you're trying

to now work towards creating this new foundation which you wanted to do I wanted you to talk a bit more about that and then I wanted to kind of go on and discuss more about how we try to change our attitudes towards the way that we like market things especially and the media representation but first starting off with your foundation yeah I mean I've been trying to develop my foundation for the past four years two years ago I found a very kind chemist who was a maverick forward thinker and a skincare specialist who helped me with the formula but couldn't take me all the way there because didn't have a background in makeup so many people but couldn't take me all the way there because I didn't have a background in

makeup. So many people just didn't take me seriously. I have spoken to so many sort of white middle-aged men and lab posts telling me, no, what you want can't be done. Black skin doesn't want to, you know, people with dark skin don't want to glow. They want to be matte. There's data, the computer says, no, you can't do a foundation without titanium dioxide and titanium dioxide leaves that chalky mask-like film on darker skin. You know, everyone just whacks white and black into their formulas, which is the reason why a lot of the foundations on the market look a bit wrong. They look a bit muddy, mask-like. And I completely refuse and reject all of that. I want to glow. I want to honor my skin. I want to turn the volume up on my melanin.

And I think creating my range is a complete act of love, self-love, but also love for my children, love for people who've been told no, told to feel ashamed of themselves. In my family, I have a very close relative who died of skin bleaching. She died at 63. People don't know this, but when you bleach your skin to be lighter, it goes in your kidneys and it can kill you. So, you know, she literally died of shame, which I find disgusting and wrong. And I hate the word tolerate. I feel I've often felt tolerated and made to feel grateful for the kind of beauty scraps on the table. And I'm about celebration that I am the middle.

I am mainstream. I'm half Nigerian. There's 206 million of us. I'm half Trinidadian I'm not a minority anything I am so sorry that you lost someone because of this racist world that we live in because they were trying to assimilate I guess that is just that's just devastating it's quite shocking oh it's completely shocking I didn't realize that bleaching had that effect. I didn't really know how it worked. If everyone's telling you that who you are, your skin colour, you get harassed, you get bullied, you get murdered, you are a maid, you are not the leading actress, who wants to be that person? I'm going to do a newsletter about fake tan.

And I wonder if I could ask you about it, actually, because it's whilst we're on this. So I'm someone that wears fake tan, but not like super dark, like so the color that I would go probably on holiday but more and more I've learned about things like black fishing which is where white women like appropriate black features and things that usually are seen on black women and kind of denigrated and looked at as not attractive and then use that to their advantage to profit I wanted to ask you about like in general obviously about that kind of thing but it fake tan is so weird that as white women we're seen as more attractive when we're more tanned but if you're black the paler you are the more attractive you are it's a very odd and being a historian I'm sure you know like the history of when did that become a thing because surely white people years

ago the paler you were the richer you were was? Exactly. So everything is usually to do with money. As a historian, right? Revolutions happen, things happen, usually around economics and money. So beauty reflects society's values. So if you were darker, it meant that you were working class, because it meant you were outside in the field. So that's why it was very looked down upon until the 20s. So if you were kind of golden or tan, it meant you were poor because you were outside, you know, in the fields working. And so the fairer your skin, the more delicate it appeared in terms of your sensibility. It meant you were inside a parlor drinking tea, being fancy. But the 1920s, Coco Chanel was one of the first people to make a tan fashionable.

She was a real maverick. She was a real feminist. She did a lot of things that broke all the rules. So in the 20s, she went out and lived her life with a deep tan. It was quite shocking. But then suddenly, instead of being equated with working in the field, being working class, Coco Chanel helped make the tan be associated with the French Riviera, holidays, luxury, expensive living so it was flipping the switch and therefore when you put your tan on you want to evoke these feelings of luxury holidays expensive living and that's what you're really doing when you're putting a bronzer on wow that's i had no idea that it started with coco chanel that's absolutely fascinating I love knowing like the where things begin but then how do you feel then as a black woman when white women are sometimes wearing fake tan that could be as dark as some black women and it being passed off

as beautiful how does that make you feel I imagine it's quite conflicting. Well, I think racism is all about double standards. You know, I think all of us have been very cross with Dominic Cummings because of double standards. I think COVID-19 has made us see that there are invisible boundaries and invisible ropes. People telling you you're free when you're not really free. And in the same way, it is kind of a double standard and a bit odd. You know, I can't find a setting powder, which I don't find chalky and kind of mask-like. So for years, I've used Guerlain's bronzers as my powder because they're so matte and they're dark or they're shimmery. So whichever way I want to look I've always used

a Guerlain bronzer because even the deepest deepest color is my skin color and the irony is it's not marketed for me it's marketed for you but it's something that has worked beautifully on my skin I find that just weird that is weird and it is odd when you say it like that to think that why is that not marketed that way that is so strange I'm not valued I'm not important what brands apart from Fenty I feel like MAC has what were the brands that did that you could apart from ones that were marketed to white women what at what point did you actually find something that was marketed for you that you liked I think everyone with darker skin tones can say Mac was the mothership of come and play. We see you.

You're fabulous. We accept you. I mean, I used to go in the 90s to the Mac counter in Harvey Nichols. It was like throbbing. It was like just somewhere fabulous where you see interesting people. And it was somewhere which said, come and play. You are welcome. Bobby Brown was also another place where I felt really at home and welcome. Bobby, who I've met on several occasions, is a champion for diversity.

You know, she really couldn't even understand why you wouldn't cater to everyone and has always done that. I used to love Shu Uemura, the Japanese brand. The foundations were never dark enough, but the pigments of the eyeshadows and blushes just sang on my skin. And I loved it. And I would go and smear these colors, which, you know, often it's not just foundations, but pigments weren't rich enough for my skin. You know, a dark skin absorbs light. And so when you put foundation on or you put pigments or eyeshadows, the light soaks it up. And so you put something which looks really exciting in the pan on the skin.

It looks actually flat and boring. But Shu Imura was like a chocolate shop of rainbow colors, which looked beautiful on my skin and made me feel very welcome. I love Trini London. I was just speaking to Trini. She really understands color. She understands undertone in her eyeshadows, and there's colors there which, one slick I'm done, which I love, like Emperor. She has a new Mother Nature collection out. Fortitude is just insanely beautiful on darker skin and lots of yummy colors. People who just respect pigment and that it should be for everybody and that you should all come and play at the party. I think it's really strange to think why people don't want to have fun in the beauty world.

Anytime you're formulating, anytime you're creating a range, just think, what would I want? And that's exactly what I want as well I'm no different yeah and as you were saying that you were just making me think about how we say like nude lip or nude colors and actually they're white nude colors because obviously like if we're talking literally about nude skin no my skin is not your nude but I think that's the hot you've hit the nail on the head. Yeah. And you know, I'm not the center.

I'm not considered mainstream. I'm not considered center. And that's the problem. Yes. It's this idea of default. I was actually having a conversation on the weekend with someone about how we default to whiteness. They were saying, Oh,

I don't know why I just realized I was talking about someone. And I said, black, I mentioned that they were black. And I was like, well, that's fine. If you mentioned that someone is white which I now tried to do so I'll be like my white friends but and and then they were like well why did I say

that and I said because we see white as default so you don't feel like you have to point it out and it's that's that's everywhere when you start seeing that like of course if you're white you wouldn't notice that foundation doesn't exist for black or women of color because you're only looking for the default white which you're expecting to see yeah it's strange isn't it it's just um i mean i'll give you an example i was in a i was running around central london when we could all go shopping and i was in carnaby street and there was um you know in that area and someone pulled me into a beauty shop a friend of mine who i just bumped into and she said oh i love shopping here it's amazing i said oh yeah yeah it's brilliant brand brilliant brand knowing there was nothing for me there

but didn't want to embarrass her and she said oh you have to try the concealer it's incredible and i just stood there and she went where's your colorate and i went oh they don't do my shade and she went that's weird and then she went I went oh they don't do my shade and she went that's weird and then she went wait a second you've got to try the foundation it's my favorite and then she went looking and she went but your color's not here either and I went no they don't do my color and she was like but why and it really shocked her because she'd never looked and she'd never seen because she was looking for me and then she felt what I feel when I go to a counter and it shocked her and she it it hadn't occurred to her because you go in you pick your

collar up and you go but then when she was like oh actually let me show you how much I love this and she couldn't find anything it outraged her and I think what's happening in the world today is everybody is waking up it's like we've all been sleeping beauty we've been roofied and now we're waking up and going what the hell is going on totally and I guess another thing which we also have spoken about previously was that um I think I said to you I was like what do you feel about the Kardashians because they're known for appropriating again lots of like black features. They got lip fillers and they make their bottoms more perky, which is like something that years ago wasn't seen as fashionable.

And I found it really interesting what you were saying about the Kardashians, because I've always seen this quite problematic looking in from the outside, because it felt like they were taking something that wasn't theirs and making it cool. Yeah, I think it's a double-edged sword. It's really interesting because, yes, they do culturally appropriate. But at the same time, they put a visibility on Black beauty. And, you know, before J-Lo, before Kardashians, people would ask, does my bum look big in this? After J-Lo, after the Kardashians, it's like, pump it up. My bum needs to look bigger.

And so, you know, it's also, I don't think an accident, but all of them, apart from Kourtney's partners, have been black men who appreciate this sensual, more curvaceous body, which has been invisible for centuries. It's either been invisible or it's been something to mock. You know, there's 18th century cartoons mocking the, you know,

female forms, mocking big African breasts. And, you know, there was a woman who used to be in a freak show in England and they used to parade her around and people would come and laugh at her naked African body. So, yes, they have culturally appropriated, but at the same time, we're having this conversation. They've made us think about beauty, different beauty ideals, different body shapes, what is sexy, what is desirable. They've also done that. And in the same way, they have transformed themselves into this other beauty type, which is similar to me. You know, do we talk about, is it okay to have a wig and a weave made from hair from India or Russia or South America? Is that okay for black women to do the other way well I guess when it comes to black women doing it if if I mean I don't know if I'm

not black woman but afro hair is often seen as like unprofessional isn't it so you kind of are forced to change your hair in order to be treated with respect right I think that is exactly the problem and that needs to stop you know I have seat coils, often considered the bottom of the curl world. You know, the noise in my head of, it looks bush, it looks unprofessional. No one in the boardroom looks like me. I had that noise in my head till I was 37. And it wasn't until I was a mother and I felt I had to break the chain and I had to break the record for my children that I, you know, went, I transitioned into natural hair. And I think that is a problem. The more you see women and men with their natural hair that grows out of their head in positions of power, the more acceptable it is.

You know, when I went natural with my hair, said to me you're so brave you're so brave and it sounds crazy to be thought of as brave just to wear your natural hair but what they meant was you're going to get more attention you're going to get followed around shops people are going to think you're poorer because you're looking more authentically like yourself I'd only ever seen natural hair probably in the last five years and prior to that I did not know that black women could have an afro black men could have an afro because no one that I knew ever wore their hair natural yeah it's it's sad and that's because I you know listen if you want to do a Beyonce hair whip with a weave down to your ankles, I live for that. It's fabulous. You can do anything

you want with your hair, but it has to come from a place of power, not fear. And a lot of people do things to their hair because they want to be accepted. They want to fit in. They don't want to be ostracized. They don't want to lose out. That I have a problem with. But if you want to have a rainbow, high ponytail and do some kind of hair whipping, I live for that. It's fabulous. But only if the next day you're comfortable to have your short TWA,

four feet, four years. That's my beauty philosophy. Beauty is so complex anyway as a woman because the more you learn about it and you hear about things like the beauty myth and you start to understand the way that you operate where I think it's from the beauty myth where she said like women are look at themselves as if they're being watched so white women look through the male gaze and I guess as a black woman you're looking through a white gaze

that's kind of the gaze that you feel that you have to impress. Would you say that that's kind of how it is? I don't know if I have to impress, but I have to prove myself all the time. I have to prove I'm worthy. I have to work 10 times harder just to be considered equal. I have to prove I'm not a thief when I'm in pot shops. I have to prove that I'm a safe black woman when I'm walking around the pots walls where I live. You know, if someone comes up in the field, I have to wave and make

chit-chat so they feel I'm safe. I find that very annoying and I find that very draining. So I am, you know, someone said on my Instagram, as a black woman, you're constantly seesawing between being invisible and highly seen. And both are equally painful. Yeah, because you're just never allowed to be yourself. No, I'm just, you know, I love drinking rooibos tea, watching this Marple. I like sci-fi. I like hanging out with my girls. love my national trust card I'm a historian nerd I love history of art I love knitting I love all these things but people don't see any of that

when they look at me as someone who's obviously really smart and you must like intellectualize beauty which I feel like I do do you ever feel a conflict of interest in in like feeling like because this is I get I get caught up in this all the time of finding that beauty especially makeup I find it gives me loads of power and I feel like it makes me feel really sexy I don't feel like I have to wear it but sometimes I do but then sometimes I flip to the other side and I'm constantly like why do I want to shave my armpits or like why do I why am I doing this is it for me or is it because of some external conditioning that's convincing me is that something that you kind of flip-flop between or have you found you know exactly what your purpose is when it comes to beauty and and the way that you look I love love love, love, love, love, love beauty. It is all about me, nothing to do with anyone else.

You know, if you look at history, there is no society in the history of the world who has not used beauty and makeup and hair to express themselves, their beliefs, their gods, their relationship with nature, their relationship to the world. And I think there is something divine, there's something magical, there's something healing and potent about the beauty industry, about beauty, about herbs. I'm into herbalism and the healing power of herbs. You know, when I look at an eyeshadow palette, that is us as humans trying to grab the palette of nature and smear it on our faces. It is powerful, powerful, powerful work. And it's all about me and how I feel and how I want to express myself. Now, I think people have taken that power and twisted it into the male gaze,

into misogyny, to make people feel bad about themselves, to make women feel that everything they do is being part of some oppressive hegemony. I'm not into that. I completely reject that. People think I'm very stupid because I work in the beauty industry. People at dinner parties think I messed up at university. Therefore, my fallback is the beauty industry. No, I could have been a lawyer, could have worked for the UN, could have done a thousand things, but I choose to work in beauty because I love it, because it's the way I want to express myself. It's the way I want to understand the world and I think it's magical creative and full of artists and that's what I am also it's a complete it's a complete misogyny to think that anything pertaining to something feminine is less than and I that's something that

I had internalized when I was younger as well I I used to not wear makeup not because I didn't want to but because I had this idea of um anything that's feminine is kind of you're kind of a better woman if you can be natural inverted commas which half the time is completely unnatural because it's fake tan and hair dye but you just haven't got visible mascara on or whatever and that's a that's a really weird that's when you when you really like get to the root of it that it's so misogynist to say that working in beauty is less important than any other job.

Because as you say, the way that society works is we all, we love beautiful things. We love looking at each other and we love feeling attractive and happy in ourselves. So it's as important as anything else. I mean, the beauty industry and talking about beauty is all about the invisible. And people don't really respect the invisible.

But guess what? They respect it now because COVID-19 has put the world on its ass. People are dying. People are suffering. You and I are sitting in our houses not being able to walk around because of something invisible. So the invisible world has never really been respected. But this invisible virus has made people sit up and understand and re-evaluate their lives and what they feel about everything. And in the same way, beauty asks invisible questions. Who am I?

What is my identity? What do I stand for? How do I feel about myself? What are my values? What is self-esteem? Beauty asks all these invisible questions. It's not pork bellies and orange juice. It's not things that you can sell on the stock market. It is a spiritual connection, which people often do not value. So that's why I think beauty is very, very valuable and important because it helps us as human beings ask interesting questions. Yeah. And I think the problem of it goes back to what you said earlier about how when you were trying to design your foundation, it was white men in lab coats telling you no. And actually, as you said, this idea that we have to conform to a specific type

of beauty is only created because the gatekeepers at the top of the beauty industry are those people that perpetuate misogyny and all of these other things that shape it. So I guess that the only way that we can turn beauty into its, I guess, more raw form, which is how you talk about it, which is really beautiful, by the way, the way you speak about it, is to have women like you creating and curating this industry. How do you contend with the fact that I imagine there are lots of things in the beauty industry which completely are at odds to your beliefs? And how do you find a way to not lose faith in the work that you're doing when you're constantly coming up against people that are doing something which is completely the opposite? It's kind of the total opposite of what you're talking about.

I mean, I think I have resilience. and a gift because you know who you are, you know that you're strong, that you know you can break down doors and open windows and spread glitter and be yourself. You're talking about a system where, who says that I can't wear pink and talk about economics? Who says I can't wear a red lipstick and talk about politics? These are rules that were made where I wasn't in the room. I didn't sign off on this. So I don't appear to it. So I think the more people can do you, be yourself, be vocal, use your voice, and then change things from the inside out. The more accepting and just and loving we can make our society. I mean, nothing is ever going to be the same. George Floyd's murder

has sparked a revolution, a movement. COVID-19 has shown the world what double standards, what we value, you know, nature, key workers, the NHS, family, connections, you know, everything. A lot of things have been taken away from people. What do you really care about? Good food, your family, your friends, connection. That's what, you know, I started my Wednesday chat club on my Instagram Live. I was always too shy, too shy to talk. I mean, I'm a chatty catty. I can talk all day and I'm not shy, but I was shy to expose myself and talk on camera on Instagram Live. And, you know, COVID-19 came. I thought to myself, there may be no tomorrow.

Who gives a shit? Let's go. And it taught us all really powerful lessons and I don't want things to go back to normal I want this to be the beginning of something more fair more beautiful more just people have suffered we have to connect and love each other and just build a better world you know not not for us but for our kids touch wood I'll be a grandma one day and I think we all have a responsibility to make things better yeah and I I love what you're saying about the way you said it earlier in relation to invisible things but you're right about how this virus has completely changed. I think you said

this to me actually about how this has meant that people can kind of understand oppression better because for the first time, it doesn't matter who you are, what color your skin is. I know that people hate using this as the great equalizer because I live in a really nice flat and I'm fine and I've still got a job and there's other people that don't and and though but it is it does give people pause for thought and it does make you have to be self-introspective and really question like what is important to you as you've said and I think that that has given people the ability to sit with some of these internalized ideas they've had and actually take the time to think through them and educate and educate ourselves especially as white people it makes you wonder like if this hadn't happened was it is it literally just the perfect storm of

things happening these tragedies happening all at once is that what has allowed for this revolution to maybe hopefully be the like the last one of these that we need when it pertaining to kind of racial issues um i think it definitely i think covered 19 george floyd and this i think every it's for for real change to happen everyone together needs to be involved and i think for the first time, people know what it tastes like to feel a little bit oppressed, to feel that invisible rope around you, to feel there's an invisible threat, which is just outside, always there, low level. That's what you live with. You go shopping, it feels like the hunger gave you go you don't want to touch all your loved ones your your elderly loved ones because you could kill them that low level everyday threat is what it feels like to be black and when you can't not see that

ever again so amazing to put it like that because i think that is something that i hadn't i hadn't really conceptualized it like that until you said it and i'd i'd been thinking oh maybe the riots are so big because people aren't at work which i do think that is playing into it i think the way we get to talk about racism is it's this overt thing where people use derogatory language that we all know those words that we shouldn't say and it's but it's actually the covert microaggressions that you brought up during this podcast like people saying that they that you can't believe you're so educated or people assuming that you don't have any money all of those and those added in together those constant microaggressions that we as white people don't experience that's that buzzing feeling that

you've just explained that so well it's I call it you know microaggressions I can have three or four of those a day and it's death by a thousand cuts it's not micro anything it's macro it's just soul destroying it's being you know I was in a queue in Notting Hill I've just done yoga um you know everyone gave me a look it's that thing oh, you know, I've got a big West African body. Oh, the pole dancing class is over there, not yoga. You know, yoga's not for you. So I'm doing a yoga class with all these kind of Buddhist, cultural, willowy types, feeling uncomfortable and awkward.

I get a coffee afterwards. I queue up. And then, you know, as soon as I get to the front of the queue, I order my coffee. And the lady said, you're queue budging. It's not, you know, and ask the front of the queue. I ordered my coffee and the lady said, you're queue barging. It's not, you know, and asked the woman next to me, what would you like?

And I said, excuse me, madam, I've been waiting. It's I'm next. And she said, no, you're queue barging. And I was so gaslit. I was like, I literally have been here for 10 minutes. Maybe I am queue barging. If you're, you know, 10 people tell you you're mad every day, maybe you really are mad. And the woman next to me, who was this kind of yummy mummy,

Gwyneth Paltrow, Notting Hill type, I could have kissed her. She looked at the woman behind the counter and said, I'm not next. This lady is next. Serve her. And it was like she had slapped her across the face because she had pulled out the bullshit. And I looked at her and smiled was like she had slapped her across the face because she had pulled out the bullshit. And I looked at her and smiled, and she looked at me as in, I know, I see. And then I looked at the rest of the queue, and all the other people put their faces down because they knew what was happening, but they were too ashamed. They didn't want to get involved. And I say, be that coffee lady. Be an ally.

When you spot it and you see it, call it out because it is death by a thousand cuts. If you are dealing with something like that three, four, five times a day for a week, for two weeks, for a month, and then on the hundredth microaggression, you kick off, then you are the angry, bestial, black woman, black man that you have been painted to be in the history of the world. And it's unfair. It's maddening. It's draining. It's boring. And who misses out? We all miss out because talent doesn't get spotted. People who should be in the jobs aren't in the jobs. People who should be in labs trying to find the cure for cancer are being marginalized we miss out as a society it's yeah that the gaslighting thing

I think everyone can kind of relate to understanding that's what's so infuriating about it and so like cruel is that you are in a catch-22 because as you say the angry black woman trope means you can't even react so then you you kind of have to act like it's fine and then it's even like there is literally no room for you to go anywhere which is why we as white people have to call it out because you physically aren't given the space to defend yourself or to call it out because whichever way you go you're fucked so what I've managed to use my voice in the past couple of years and the best way anyone who's listening I'll give you arbor also for any kind of passive-aggressive dinner party chat is just to ask questions in a very Louisa Rue way it's

completely devastating and exposing so you know what I do now is like, oh, I'm sorry. I just saw you give the lady in front of me a shopping bag, but you didn't want to give me a shopping bag. Can I just ask why? Has there been a new rule? Just, you know, what's that about? And it's completely devastating. Just ask in a really innocent way why you're being treated differently. What is that? Like, just make them explain it. And the answer is racism and no one wants to go there. And it's really shocking. And it's just holding a mirror up. So that's my new technique now. I just hold a mirror up and ask questions. That's also how I deal with people that don't want to believe in my privilege because I'll have a back and forth argument and I'll be like okay well when did you last get

stopped and searched or why do you it's when they want to be able to say that people are racist to them they want to be able to use the word reverse racism and I'm like why do you want to be able to use that word and you're right it does because there is there is no coherent answer apart from they feel either feel like they're having something taken away from them yeah it's yeah there's a really great actor um african-american actor and he was on like fox news or something and he was they asked you know the anchor said it's so unfair that you know why can black people say the n-word and we can't say the n-word and the actor said to him go on say it say the word you want to say to me i give you permission and it was just so devastating come on say it call me the n-word

i don't mind go for it if you want to call me that word so bad go for it you have my full permission and it was completely devastating it's like you really want to go around calling black people that you know like what is your problem it was just so interesting well there was um oh that's the thing it's really good it's equality to the privileged feels like oppression yes that's exactly what it is it is when you're so used to having everything your way and winning to share feels like you're being oppressed. And all equality is just thinking that everyone has the right to have your rights. And if you don't think that, then you're part of the problem. Yes, completely. I wanted to ask you when it comes to work now, in light of everything that's

been going on, how have these conversations been changing? Have they been getting better? Has it been eye-opening? What's been happening in this current moment of action when it comes to your work? It has been a fascinating two weeks in terms of brands. There have been people who still have a black square. Guess what? Everyone's watching.

They are paralysed. They don't know watching. They are paralyzed. They don't know what to do or say. They don't know how to move forward. They don't want to get it wrong. But a little bit like a tumor in your body, it's better to go and seek help, advice, and deal with it than to let it grow. You need to sort this out. You need to address it. So a lot of brands have come to me. They've spoken. They've asked me to give lectures. They've asked me to talk to their CEOs about all the things we're talking about, about white privilege, visibility, seeing is believing, what they can do,

how they can action things. And I really applaud them. You know, companies like Revlon, Health and PR, The Body Shop, they've been all over this and being very, very responsive. Other brands have approached me asking for help in this moment of crisis, as if it's a storm that will pass, as if, you know, racism and asking for social justice and equality is something to be dealt with in a crisis mode, which is insulting. And I wholeheartedly reject. I've been saying this is not a moment. It's a movement.

So it's about learning how to go forward with strength and honor and dignity for everybody. That means looking at your language, looking at your packaging, looking at your marketing. So I've been helping people with that. I have had people reach out to me who want to publish the books that I've been wanting to write for 10 years, but I've been told, you know, there's already a black book, so we can't publish yours, which is so insulting. And I tell them, you know, it's a historical beauty book, looking at black beauty through a history lens and, you know, how that makes us, you know, as a society today. And I've been told, yes, but you know, there's a black book already. And that, you know, it was Slay in Your Lane, Fumi's Wonderful Palette, now it's I'm Not Your Baby

Mother. And it's these gatekeepers telling you that you can only be one at a time, one voice at a time. And I said, that's a little bit like, you know, I've heard there's a thriller coming out this year, so we can't publish any more thrillers. And people have been silent. So even a few days ago, I was asked by a publisher to prove there was a market for my book. Can you prove the numbers? Can you write an outline so we can take it to the board so they can read and send it to people to see if there really is a market? I mean, if you don't realize there is a hunger and a thirst to talk about these issues in the past two weeks, I can't help you. It's insulting. It's ridiculous. So it has been a mix of people who want to get on board and

go forward in an exciting, just way, and they're going to make more money. And there's been people who are the same old, same old. You just have to hope, I guess, that those places that are doing stuff like that, asking you to prove yourself, will be the ones that eventually, hopefully, will just die out and lose relevance because they don't fundamentally understand that by not, as you say, publishing these stories or sharing these experiences, you're just completely upholding what we have right now, which is exactly what we're trying to dismantle. So it just makes no sense if you're trying to, as you say, like keep the movement going and move forward, why you would have any resistance towards doing something different from what you've already done, which evidently isn't working. I'm going to self-publish. I've decided to leave a change.

I have four books I want to write. I'm going to take them all by the horns and do it myself. And I'm self-publishing. I'm going to, you know, the investors that I've been speaking to who want me to prove that there really is a market for my foundation for darker skin tones. Again, you know, I'm over it. I have started a GoFundMe page. Please everyone support me. I will do it myself. And that's the way I'm going to make my change. And I'm going to be, you know, my little link in the chain. We are all links in the chain. And I think we all have a responsibility to each other. This is my act of beauty activism. Please support me. Go on GoFundMe. I am going to just

do the things I want to do, my art, and to share it with everyone. And I hope things can change. Yeah, I keep meaning, I'm going to remember to do that now you reminded me to donate to your GoFundMe because as you say it's another one of those things where we can vote with our wallet I think sometimes people are like oh my god I don't know what charity to donate to and stuff but it's not about necessarily donating to charities there's ways that we can spend like effectively spend our money where we're getting something back because if we put money into your foundation that's all of our friends or people that we know getting a product that they really want and love you know it's like there's there's different ways of supporting without it being so kind of like like with the charity because that's quite hard sometimes I think

with charities and stuff it's difficult to know how you're supporting you know i'm not a charity being you know racial equality isn't a charity it just should be how the world could be and it's it's saying you cannot and i completely agree with you economics is how historically how things change so if everyone proves that there is a market there is money to be made guess what people are going to get with the program yeah sorry i hope you didn't think i was calling your charity what i meant was in this moment when people are like how do we elevate so that we're making sure that you know our privilege is being redistributed i guess there's ways of doing that is like actively just supporting black owned brands or black owned

entities and then that that has maybe perhaps more of an impact than just giving to something I don't know I think you know I I don't know how to say this but you know when people see me I was very very conflicted about doing a GoFundMe page yeah because I didn't want to be you know that child on a poster with a begging bowl out which is what I have been made to feel all my life. But I'm thinking of this as a form of power and black owned business and making my own decisions and, you know, as a rallying cry. So everything is how you look at it and how I look at myself. And that's how I see myself. I see this as an empowering moment and not with a begging bowl moment.

Does that make sense? No, complete sense. And I don't see it like that at all. I actually went to a really interesting talk about investment, like women getting into investing and stuff like that. And there was four really successful women who all had different businesses. And they all spoke about how when they initially went to get funding they couldn't get it because everyone was white male pale and stale or whatever it is um and none of them could get investments so they all ended up

doing crowdsourcing crowdfunding fund like ways of and ended up having incredibly lucrative businesses and they said if it wasn't for the fact that i had women in my circles that i could reach out to who would and I crowdsourced through thousands of people rather than one lump investment from one investor they were like it would never have got off the ground so I think actually this is the only way sometimes because you can't get past those gatekeepers those white men in lab coats you know you have to take it to the people that's what I'm doing and the waves of love and support has been incredible. I've had, you know, £10,000 in a day. That's like a fifth of what I need. It's been so

validating because I've been gaslit all my life and in my 20-year career. So I say a huge thank you for everyone who's supporting me, who's rooting for me. This is not about me. It's about my children, your children, all of us, you know. Yeah, it's incredible. I love speaking to you. You're just one of the most, every time I've spoken to you, you just answer with a laugh. And it's like the most happiest, loveliest thing ever.

So thank you so much for coming on. If people want to find you in your work, you're at Ate Jewel. And you write in lots of different places still get the glass telegraph um um mary claire everywhere so please say hi to me on at a jewel and on my instagram just dm me say hi i'm here I want I want to help I want this things to move forward and I want things to be better oh well thank you so much for being such an incredible guest and for teaching me so much I've learned so much from you so thank you oh this is such a pleasure thank you thank you and thanks everyone to list for listening i'll see you next week bye fandu casino daily jackpots guaranteed hit by 11 p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

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