Adulting - #72 Relationships, Accountability & Growth with Florence Given

Episode Date: July 5, 2020

Hey Podulters, I hope you’re well! In this episode I speak to author, illustrator and influencer, Florence Given. We discuss her debut book ‘Women Don’t Owe You Pretty’, what it took for Florence to become the woman she is today, and why we should always be aiming to grow and evolve. Enjoy! As always please do rate, review and subscribe! O xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hey, poddlters. I hope you're doing well. I'm super excited for you to listen to this episode as it is with my good friend Florence Given. She is an influencer, illustrator, and now author. Her first book, Women Don't Owe You Pretty, is out now. And so we discuss how she came to be the woman that she is today, what inspired her to write this book, as well as delving a little bit deeper into some of the themes that she talks about from boundaries to abusive relationships, to holding yourself accountable, as well as other people. I really love chatting to her as always and I hope that you do too. Don't forget to get a copy of Women Don't Owe You Pretty

and as always please do rate, review and subscribe. It really helps people to find the podcast. Enjoy! Hello and welcome to Adulting. Today'm joined by florence gibbon hello hello thank you so much for coming on finally how are you doing babes i'm good thank you um see we're talking over each other because it's delayed um yeah I'm good thank you I'm taking trying to take lots of rest I'm going for bike rides um and I'm trying to be slow because I don't usually allow myself to be slow and I think the current situation that we're all in is it's allowing me to rest a bit more you're so right actually I hadn't really thought about that but right at the beginning of lockdown we spoke about that because this isn't you're not ever used to resting you're

always very much. And especially I was supposed to be going on a book tour with my book so that would have this is the complete opposite of what I would have been what I would have been doing I would have been going around the UK and potentially Europe doing a book tour. So this is like the complete opposite of what I was supposed to be doing. So quickly, before we get into the chat, for people who don't know who you are and maybe aren't familiar with your work, could you give us an overview of Florence Given? Sure. So I'm 21 years old. I'm an artist, influencer and author. I talk about my experiences in my artwork which are basically everything's told from my life and then I read up about my experiences and learn about the psychology of my experiences and

why those experiences happened to better understand myself and to pass on those lessons that I learn in my life to other people and I usually do this through my art and my writing. Your platform for me has been instrumental in learning and even though you're younger than me it's never been something that has left me feeling like I can't be educated by you so I was so excited to read your book when it came out and it came out just over 10 days ago now I think and the reception has been incredible. Have you been overwhelmed? How are you feeling about it? I have been overwhelmed. It makes me feel very uncomfortable in a way. I think this book was like, it was like birthing a child. And now that it's out there, other people can put their own

perceptions on it. And it feels like I've cut out this huge vulnerable part of myself. And anyone who's an artist or anyone who exists online and in the public domain knows that when you put stuff out there and it's about your life you're opening up to critique and that's just um that's part of the whole thing it's letting go of your art it no longer becomes yours when you open up to the public so I think it's this feeling of being vulnerable but also this amazing feeling of wow so many people have already told me that my work has caused them to reflect on some of their own toxic behaviors or spotting toxic behaviors in other people and how to maneuver these or even call them out to solve them um it's it's been amazing yeah there's a really beautiful

bit in the book when you talk about this concept of how people project different things onto art. And then you say, and I realized suddenly that art never changes. That art always stays the same, but other people are able to draw different things from it, whether that's positive or negative. And that was from the passage about projection, I think. Yeah, this is the thing. I think it's always good to consider other people's perspectives um on your art but the art stays the same it doesn't matter it doesn't matter your perception of it might have changed um and you're allowed to be influenced by um you know the context of where you're at in life or some people bring an entire different lived experience to the work

that I'm making so when they read it it either won't make sense to them or they won't like it. And yeah, but the art hasn't changed. My writing hasn't changed. So I think that is definitely, it does help to view it in that way that the art itself hasn't changed. If you liked it at one point and someone says they don't like it, the art hasn't changed, just your perception of it has yeah that was such a great passage to read and I really I never thought about it like that we first met I think two or three years ago in a cafe and we spoke for hours just talking about everything we'd learned all these things to do with feminism in the world and then at the end right at the end before I was going home you told me you were 19 and I remember being like what how did you become this woman so young so shouldn't really use woke but what was the catalyst for you unlearning all of this at such a young age um I think it was

probably my high school experience um being in school um I didn't like the person I was becoming I was in this awful friendship group um with a group of girls and it was very very stereotypical of like kind of like a mean girl situation where there's like a there's a head girl and then she has her group of people who just do everything for her and I was in this friendship group with this group of girls and it was the most toxic environment it was like heightened internalized misogyny heightened in insecurity projection um being horrible to other women to make himself feel better all of this kind of stuff and then I was ousted from this clique um because the girl the kind of the head girl of like this clique um found out that I had an eating disorder and so I then became the person who everyone bullied and isolated and I think it was through

that journey of being ousted from the group and having to be my own for a little bit um or at least in school I had lots of friends outside of school, but in school, going to school, it was like this constant having to navigate situations where I was faced with other people's judgments of me. And I had no one to help me because she kind of ruled the say, if you like, like, no, if she said you couldn't talk to anyone, to this person, you wouldn't talk to them. And that was, I was that person. I was like the next victim. So I think being on my own kind of forced me to be like, okay, well, I can either become so fucking upset about this, or I can learn about my experiences and I can learn about why she's doing this to me, why I used to do this to other women and where this came from. And I read lots of books and self-help. I went outside of my

comfort zone and I put myself in situations where it was uncomfortable I used to go for walks on my own and I once laid in the middle of the field um where all the girls in my school went and it was so fucking embarrassing but I was like if I can lie in the middle of this field and not care what these people think about me I can do anything and I think there was so much courage born in that moment because I think it was the first time that I denounced the need to be liked by all of these people and I in that kind of act of doing so I rejected their approval and it sounds so small and so minute but I still do little things like that today like even me going on a bike ride that's I could never have done that a year ago but because there's been less people on the streets now um during quarantine I've been able to go outside of my comfort zone and push through the anxiety that

comes with being seen and being judged by others because I did have a lot of social anxiety so I think there was a lot of pressure to um conform in high school my school was like it was it was hellish it was like saint trinians everyone was trying to one up one up each other people would like throw flour over the year sevens and chuck food out the windows it was the first few years of high school were absolutely wild and then I think it was escaping that clique and deciding that I didn't like the person I was becoming and that also I didn't have much of a choice after that because they started bullying me for my eating disorder anyway. It was, I think it was just this huge, this huge transition, which encouraged me to face myself

and the stuff that I was perpetuating as well as acknowledging why they were doing what they were doing. And that's kind of when I discovered feminism, because I realized that a lot of this stuff was about one-upping each other with women. And I write this chapter in my book about internalized misogyny, and it's titled, Refuse to Find Comfort in Other Women's Flaws. And I still do it today. I think a lot of people do. And especially with the internet, it's this 24-7 accessible window into someone's life or pictures of them and I think to what's the word to alleviate those feelings of insecurity we look to other people to make ourselves feel better about our own shortcomings and this this plays out in everything like even with you see white people right when we call people out for stuff that we may have recently

stopped doing ourselves as though it's some kind of like self-righteous I know more than you and it's like hang on a minute you only learned about this thing two weeks ago you know and I think it's catching yourself sometimes in trying to um yeah well trying to counsel people for things you recently stopped doing yourself I think that so many people will relate with those experiences that you went through at school I think because of all the things that you talk about in your book and the way that young girls are conditioned and socialized to pit themselves against one another one another to feel like they have to perform femininity this bitchiness that we all experience and also partake in is part of that conditioning and I think that so many if not all women that I know

have been in these altercations with friends and you and I still look back on these experiences now and I think what the hell was I doing but it took me a lot longer than you did to get to that point and I remember doing the same painful self-introspection and doing the same as you and looking things up online and being like why why have I got this negative mindset? Why am I comparing myself constantly? And it's really painful because it's, it's, we're all complicit in it. And as you say, it's like that growth of, there's, you repeat it in the book, but it's where we can explain people's actions and we can understand them, but it doesn't mean that we should be like okay well we can excuse it yeah you can explain it but you can't that does not excuse it and I think um yeah like I can explain to death why

my ex-boyfriend abused me I can explain and explain to death because I've done so much research bloody research on it you know I can research to death and explain to death about why this person hurt me because of their own psychology, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then you end up entrapping yourself in this kind of like, well, you can't, um, that does not excuse that behavior. You can explain, you can, you can explain literally everything if you have the, the knowledge of it. Right. And I made, after I escaped my abusive relationship and my emotionally abusive friendships with women I started to google this stuff so that I could better understand these situations to make sure that it didn't happen again but then you end up empathizing with your abuser and that's where

the line gets a bit blurry and you need to you need to yeah I think I think there's definitely this habit of over empathizing with people who have hurt you. That's really interesting. I mean, I hadn't even thought of it like that. There's so many instances when I've done that, especially post-romantic relationships. And I look back and I think, oh, well, you know, but then I guess I'm, well, I must've done something to trigger that person to hurt me. And it's like, no, no no one deserves abuse but then do you believe because I believe that everyone hopefully can change as well oh god absolutely I think I think people can change but you do not owe people um your forget like I don't owe my ex-boyfriend forgiveness because

he abused me do you know what I mean it's like you don't owe people your forgiveness and I think there are some people who will people make mistakes but it's different when people are repetitively causing harm and refuse to change from those behaviors that those are the kinds of people who just don't don't you don't you don't owe them anything you don't owe them forgiveness you don't owe them a place in your life um I think it's yeah when things become repetitive you yeah I don't think you end up exhausting yourself and that that's what lands people in abusive relationships is um constantly forgiving the repetitive abuse and then you just end up making a trauma bond with this person and it's harder to get out of it which is why my work focuses on encouraging women to spot these behaviors before they experience them or they perpetuate these behaviors themselves because you know you everyone has their own hand in

manipulation or being controlling or gaslighting um even if it's unintentional um it's so good to learn these things so that you are not contributing towards a cycle of emotional abuse and stuff that just makes people, stuff that just isn't healthy behaviors to exhibit. And again, that needs a lot of deep introspection and that's analyzing and unpacking your own insecurities. That's why I go to therapy. Sometimes I realize I have feelings about women on the internet who I don't even know. I wrote this in my book. I have feelings about women on the internet who I don't even know right I'll say I wrote this in my book I have feelings about women on the internet but they don't even know and I'm just like I just don't like her and then I really really really deep it and I think about why why do I feel this way and it's because she reminds me of myself or she reminds me of a

past version of myself that I can't forgive and and with the idea of abuse and not being able to get out of it I've been in emotionally abusive and once a physically abusive relationship as well and the difficulty is once you're in that cycle it is so hard to escape it and I do really wish that this book had been around them because um there's there's this other idea that you know that we've got first of all women we have to be in relationships and so we have to find someone to be with. And then when you're with someone, it's like the fear of being single is so much that we're willing to, as you say in the book, settle for crumbs. And I do believe that this is changing. And I think that you've been so instrumental in this movement towards recognizing how empowering it is to be single and also recognizing that we cannot be feminist women or men and then

date people who objectively disagree with our views and that's something that I've really started to think about more because I would quite often date men who didn't have any of my ideals but I would be like oh well they're a man so they don't have to I I literally convinced myself so many times that it wasn't a problem that I was dating these assholes because it wasn't me and I was just shagging them you know like I think I totally skirted off um thinking that I had a part to play in enabling and being complicit in their views or in their behavior um my ex was horrific and he is one of my biggest red flags I wrote about in my book is you need to break up with someone if you feel embarrassed repeating the things that they say

to you, to your friends. If you would never say to your friends, oh, my partner said this, what do you think of this? If you would never even bring up the stuff that your partner says, because you're so embarrassed, you need to get rid of this person because that means you're avoiding having to be accountable and make changes because if you're keeping information from someone it's yeah it's because you're afraid of having to let go of that person and what that means for you it means it means being single and it means choosing better for yourself it means choosing something that is different and unknown. And I think, like you said about being single, a lot of the time we're afraid of not having anything to jump onto. And that's the whole point. You know, you've got to walk

into your own arms and kind of just believe that you are going to be enough for yourself and have a support system. You know, if you're not close with your family, you can have friends or friends or um you know and even if you don't have that there are domestic helplines that can help people get housing or get spaces if they are in abusive relationships and I think yeah there's there's just so there's so many layers to it but I think it's understanding that being with but I can't even there are certain cases you know where you don't if you are in an abusive relationship it's hard to you just constantly excuse their behavior that's the thing so this it's such a tricky conversation because absolutely you should not be enabling someone's um racist ableist homophobic or abusive behaviors if you're in a relationship with that person but also when you're in an abusive relationship it's

hard because you simply do not believe that you do not believe on on any level that you deserve better than this and you have this manipulative trauma bond with this person it's so hard it's it's it's not as um easy as just you know letting go of someone but I needed a friend just to tell me to dump him to just someone to just tell me floss dump this fucking guy we see what he's doing um and you deserve better so that's kind of like the friend that I've become to thousands of people on social media now because I needed that person. Totally. And obviously, as you just said as well, like abusive relationships are so complex and there's lots of different layers to it. And there might be financial reasons or many layers why people can't leave a relationship.

Absolutely. about so expertly is maybe perhaps not even on on that deep of a level but actually these more superficial relationships that we're starting to make where we feel especially as younger women obliged to entertain them and and if you can cut them off kind of that early on or before it's it spiraled into something there you go is unsalvageable then you're saving yourself even though it feels like I remember when I the two times when I've had really awful relationships the breakups were like I felt like I was dying and I felt like I yeah my world was ending the relationship I'm in now is really healthy and I can imagine our breakup we would probably talk about it and it would be really sad

but it would just be it shouldn't be that less chaotic yeah it was like awful like I think about it now and it makes me feel like oh my god it's it's so hard and so many of us have been in these situations where we've been traumatized and we don't even recognize that that that trauma has happened to us because oh my god it takes it takes so long to even acknowledge it because you're in this bubble and it's like you're surrounded by this abusive fog and it takes someone shining a light in the fog to like show you an alternative and be like come on you deserve better than this and it takes us so long it took me months to even call the relationship that I was in abusive because I was afraid of what that meant for him and again I was over empathizing with my abuser. I didn't want to call

him abusive, but he is, there's no other word for it. And I think it takes a long time, like you're saying, to register that. It also, what happened to me as well was when you are being gaslit and emotionally abused, you become quite an ugly person. And I, in one of my relationships, became this person that I didn't really like and it was impacting everything so then I found it really hard to look back with clarity and kind of see where where I was exhibiting this toxic behavior and where I also was the victim and it's sometimes really hard to how do you marry those two things of like okay so my behavior was problematic and as you say we can't excuse it but I can see why that was something I found really tricky. And even now,

sometimes looking back. Yeah, I think there's, um, it's, it's, you can't have self-love without accountability. You know, it's, I think it's really tricky because abuse is never your fault because the whole point of a being of being in an abusive relationship is that you are manipulated into thinking that that's what you deserve. That's what the person does. They don't want you to want better for yourself. They control you entirely to the point where you think that you are nothing without them. That's what kept me in mind for so long. And I refuse to beat myself up anymore about staying in that awful situation because I was in a trauma bond with this person. And if anyone's listening to this and doesn't know what a trauma bond is, I recently learned about it myself. I follow a lot of psychologists online and this has helped me so much. A trauma bond is not discussing trauma with

your friends and bonding over a shared incident. A trauma bond is when you and your partner have something happen in the relationship. And this could be a traumatic experience, they might physically hurt you. They might deny your reality. They might do something irresponsible. They might hurt someone else. Whatever it is that happens in this relationship, if you forgive them that first time, the first time they do something, they've got you. They know that you will accept anything that they throw your way. And then they keep doing it. And the more that they do stuff that you forgive them for because you don't think you deserve better and you want to fix this person and you believe that this person will change for you or that you can have a part to play in their

growth they will cling to that feeling um to keep to keep you going and to keep you in the relationship and they will sprinkle in the relationship. And they will sprinkle in the, the, the, the stuff that you love in between of these acts of manipulation, um, to control you and to keep you there. And that is a trauma bond and Google it for the full explanation, but learning about that, that just, it made me feel a lot more sane and a lot more validated in my experiences there's no I could never I could never blame a woman for being in an abusive relationship or saying why did you stay for so long because I fucking understand it I get so it's heartbreaking I get so many messages from people every day saying oh my god I feel so like a bad person for staying in this abusive relationship

and if you actually say out hearing other people say it it reminds me how ridiculous it was that I ever thought that I think when it's your situation you can always kind of um doubt your own feelings you know because you are gaslight and that the effects of that stay for years um and it takes therapy and deep looking at your mind to come out of that and to be able to stand in your reality. But I think hearing other women say to blame themselves for staying in relationships for so long, it makes me understand. I can see more clearly how ridiculous it is that I want to also believe that. And also, I think it's towards the end of the book, and I've spoken about this before, but the way that relationships are set up were until very recently designed to have this power imbalance where, as you mentioned in the book, up until 1991, it was legal to rape your wife. There wasn't such a thing as raping your wife because they were owned by the husband.

Yes. And what's happening is as we become more liberated as women and non-binary people, we are then starting to see these structures, but they are there not by accident. And the men that carry on abusing women have also been conditioned. And this is that weird kind of tug of war between having empathy and also holding someone accountable. There you go. Because the patriarchy impacts everyone. Toxic masculinity is a product of the patriarchy, which these men who treat women in such a way, I imagine that it can't be like them recognizing their own internalized misogyny and whatever else would be really painful as it is for anyone. And so I think the complexities that you talk about are really fascinating because it is about, we have to take ownership as individuals. We can't be dependent on anyone else for our happiness, but we can actually protect ourselves with things like boundaries. I think just going back to what you said then about toxic masculinity, I absolutely know what you're saying. And I think you'll agree with me that when I say this, I, as someone who has been abused by men, I don't have time to think about

how they are feeling while they're abusing me. And that is not some, I think it's a very important thing, but I think it's something absolutely women need to question their standards that they hold men up to, but men are the, um, or at least white men anyway um are the oppressors of women and um it's i don't have time to to sit and empathize because this is the thing i do this too often so i don't think i the reason i don't lead conversations on toxic masculinity is because i think it's it's once again centering men's feelings in a movement that is that should be dedicated to um releasing women and non-binary people from the damaging effects of toxic masculinity that is usually sexual assault and abuse so i just i know you'll probably agree with me on that i'm not sure no i do agree and

it's it's it's a really pertinent point because as you said about the centering thing i guess that what the when i bring that up, when I find it really interesting is when I'm getting in a debate about feminism or white male privilege and men love to bring up male suicide. So that's like, well, women don't have it as bad. And it's horrendous that male suicide rates are so high.

But then the exploration and explanation that we are all constrained by the patriarchy like it's not just women yeah and that I think it's um it's it I think I absolutely agree with you but it's it my standing on this is to men is if the only time you bring up male suicide is when a woman is trying to call you out you don't give a fuck about male suicide you just hate women so that is very true and it often is used as a means to just squash the argument yeah to shut us up so when you actually taught me about boundaries I think it was you and Africa that first started really introducing that into my lexicon and making it Africa I know

and making it like a really a viable option and I've started to implement them more but it takes a lot of courage what were the first boundaries that you started to set up? Because it's something which you completely live by. Yes. Oh my God. It's like my religion because I've spent, it's also respecting other people's boundaries and respecting, uh, and, and stating my own. And I think, um, and also consent as well, because consent also goes outside the bedroom. Consent goes into so many other arenas. And I think learning the language of consent and learning about boundaries helped me form better relationships with other people and made me realize that people don't owe me shit. No one owes me shit and that I don't owe anyone else shit.

And it's so liberating. And I think some of the first boundaries I set were with my online community about me not replying to DMs because I get so many a day. And this is, oh my God, I fucking love it when people tell me, thank you so much. Your work means a lot to me. What could anyone else fucking ask for? It makes my day when people say that those aren't the kinds of dms i'm referring to i'm referring to the dms from people um offloading their trauma to me and all this heavy dumping that i receive in my dms because people want me to give them free advice so one of my first boundaries i set with my community i think was no advice in DMs. And as new people enter it all the time, people still disrespect it because they don't know it's a boundary, whatever.

But yeah, I think that was one of my biggest boundaries. I set boundaries with my friends all the time. I think I used to have this expectation that I had to be 24 seven accessible for my friends. You know, I used to think like if a friend wants to FaceTime me that I had to absolutely do it instantly but with my friends now and even yourself um if I don't want to do FaceTime I'll say okay no can we do this time this works for me and you do the same with me and only you say no can we do tomorrow morning floss and I'm like that's absolutely fine and then we do it tomorrow morning and I think it's little boundaries like that and not feeling obligated to constantly be there for your friends.

That was definitely something that I internalized from my high school relationships with women, not having any boundaries in that toxic friendship group and kind of living to please them to the point where I would be, I would do anything for them. I would, anything to get. I would anything to get their approval. Like that it was, it was gold to me, like the approval of this herd or like the, the, the, the, the crowd that everyone wants to be a part of. I would have done anything.

And that included belittling and mocking other women to mask my own insecurities. And again, that's why I talk about internalized misogyny, because it's so important. And I think those kinds of dynamics are boundary lists. You know, I don't think those, those dynamics where friends talk about each other or don't say no to each other, that's not a healthy environment to thrive. And I think women then take this into their relationships, you know, and I was a doormat to my ex-boyfriend. When you first started doing this with me where you'd be like I can't remember how but you just say things like that you're like we can do them or I now love this because I get really anxious when someone just facetimes me and I was the same I used to just answer but I wouldn't want to do it

right then yeah and it was you being like um okay let's do this time and that gave me the power and actually makes me feel more relaxed when we talk because I don't feel like if I read your message, you're not going to be stressed if I don't reply. You'll just wait until I reply. Also, another boundary is turning your red receipts off. My red receipts have been off for about six months now. And I keep them off because, oh, my God, my life is just so much more free. I feel like, wow, I don't really want to reply. And it's made all my friendships much less resentful because that's the thing when you don't have boundaries babe you just end up resenting everyone in your life because you're overworked

and it's not anyone else's fault but your own because you constantly say yes to everything and I think there's this over exhaustion that we kind of for for me anyway, not going to speak for all women, but for me, there was almost this pride I had in being this over-exhausted friend who was everybody needed stuff from. And there's absolutely no pride in being this doormat. I thought I was, oh, anyone can come to me. And then I would moan about it and say, why does everyone use me? And it's because I never said no to any favors in fact I inserted myself so that people you know if someone didn't ask for help they were just telling me their problems I would give them shitloads of advice and then moan a couple days later about how they drain me that's so shit you know and it's I think it's learning that you yeah just there's no point

in resenting friends when you can just insert boundaries and you absolutely have every right to this goes back to your one of your illustrations that I have that says fill yourself up first babe and it's kind of in opposition to everything we're taught as women which is what you were talking about this idea that we have to be caregivers this idea that we should be thoughtful and it seemed really radical that we as women actually we have to put ourselves first but this comes with anything it makes it's like that oxygen mask analogy like you can't help anyone else if your oxygen mask isn't on and it seems absolutely wild that it's taken us so long to recognize that we deserve to look after ourselves before we look after anyone else and make sure that we've actually got the

space to do that because I'm I'm the complete same as you I'd lay myself out for my friends and actually being a people pleaser is almost just as toxic as as anything else and that was something that I really was guilty of yes it's hard when you feel guilt for these things though because again it is that conditioning thing which is why I love we have these conversations all the time because it's so much more complicated than right or wrong it's really really nuanced when you're writing the book were you were you worried about how hard was it for you to write I mean I remember you writing it but was were you concerned about not being able to get every bit across or do you feel like you picked this apart so much that you felt really comfortable in putting it forward in a way that explored all the angles

oh my god I mean every chapter was like only a few pages long but there were so many topics I wanted to cover that hopefully people go on to research more in and um there's yeah regarding people pleasing and all of this kind of stuff there are so many I learn something new every day I read my book and I'm like it's a book, but there are so many things that now I've learned. I would like to add onto an argument and say, also, this is, um, a problem because of X, or even in my, um, chapters, I wish I could go, Oh, this problem is harder for fat women because of X. You know, it's like when I'm talking about my experiences, I can't talk for fat women. I can talk about my experience and then say, you know, my experience isn't the only experience being a

white woman and then kind of add on, this is made harder for fat women or trans women because they face this as well. And then this contributes to X. And I think there's, but then you end up exhausting yourself. And I've, I've done as much as I could to fit in all of that stuff. And it was just so many corrections along the way that I was making as much as I could to fit in all of that stuff and it was just so many corrections along the way that I was making every day when I was learning new stuff I was like shit I need to include this um and yeah I honestly I just can't wait to write my next book I think my next book would be more explorative in one particular subject there's not I can't cover everything I care about infinite things, infinite topics,

infinite discussions. And I think it's impossible to, for me to include everything. Like I'm one person, but I absolutely look back on my book and I'm like, fuck, I wish I included so many other points. I don't, I wish you, I don't think you should feel like that because as you just said, I think another thing that's so important, especially in this moment that we're in right now where there's a lot of action and education going on. We live in this collectivism world where everything's kind of available straight away and there's swipe up links to everything and you kind of have to take no authority in your learning. Whereas I think first of all, you cover loads in the book, but also there is that it's a springboard for more learning. And I didn't read, when I went through that self-inspection thing, someone actually asked me earlier when I posted a book, they were like, oh, do you have any books on self-help or like getting out of getting a positive mindset?

And I was like, no, I didn't even look at that point to think about reading a book. I just spent hours, probably the same as you, researching stuff online. And so what you've done amazingly is you've put forward all of this information in a really concise and beautiful way but as you say then we have to apply it to our own lives and research things a bit deeper to figure it out a bit more because these issues are so complex and no one could put that together in a book absolutely every single thing that's ever happened yeah I think it's also it's so good for other people to to be able to disagree with me. You know, I want people to look at this and go, I can appreciate this, but this does not apply to my life or I cannot apply this because of this circumstance. I want people to be able to think critically, you know, and I question absolutely everything. If I feel an emotion, I think, why am I feeling this? Is it them or is it you? And I want people to be able to interact with my material or anything through a critical lens that asks whether this even should be applied. And you know,

like we were saying earlier about dating people who don't match your beliefs, I thought I could do it if I was just shagging them. You know, I thought I could just date people if it was just casual. But then I realized I didn't even enjoy being with them because their values didn't align with mine and that they're a piece of shit and it's just not hot. And I think you overlook these things so many times because you want to believe that these people can change and you want to believe that the person who has continuously showed you that they do not care about you or the stuff that you care about. We like to think that we can grow and change people.

And I think there is an element of growing together in relationships and nourishing and supporting each other's growth. But you cannot be responsible for someone's growth. That person has to pick up the stuff themselves. Sure, you can recommend them the book, but they have to get the book and read the stuff themselves. Sure, you can recommend them the book, but they have to get the book and read the book themselves. And I think that's, with these chapters in my book being so small, I hope that people read my chapter on internalized misogyny and then do a whole journal session on it and even critique what I'm saying. I don't agree with this because sometimes I feel like X or this doesn't apply to my

experience or for people to talk about their own experiences with internalized misogyny or the chapter on, um, there's so much to reflect on in my book. And it's all of these points. I have, um, these conversations with my friends daily about the subjects in my book and I go on to form my own opinions on them. And my opinions daily about the subjects in my book and I go on to form my own opinions on them and my opinions change all the time you know that's how human beings work we have new information and then we change our opinions and then hopefully we change our behavior and I think that's how that is how society is going to change that's how these attitudes are

going to change and that's how we move on. We question and we interrogate ourselves and we come back with changed behavior. On the point of criticism and changed behavior, this is one of the most liberating things I've learned. And definitely through your work, I've got better. And we actually have phone calls all the time about how like, if we are criticized, how are we going to deal with this correctly and take accountability. And that's one of the most liberating things you can do, which I didn't think it was I was such a defensive person and I often would not be able to take criticism and actually once you stop centering yourself in someone else telling you that they're hurt it's the most incredible thing because as you say you

get that information you accept what you did and then you can grow but for as long as you spend time unwilling to change you you will be stuck in the cycle and you'll only elongate that amount of time because those things that I've done in my past I cringe so much when I look back and think oh my god I was such a dick or like that was so bitchy or what did I do that but at least now I know I've I'm out of it as painful as it is to look back and with the knowledge if you know that you can take criticism it just means that you can learn to grow I find that I honestly think it's so important that aspect of accountability I love uh I love being corrected I don't think I could date someone who agreed if oh my god if I dated someone oh the thought of dating someone who agrees with everything I said I'd hate it you, like all of my friends in my life hold me accountable.

Like I, I ask my friend, I ask you and I need to pull me up on stuff. Sometimes I'm like, does this sound okay? Is this weird? Let me show you the situation and you will pull me up on things. I need people in my life to hold me accountable because I don't want to live a lie. I'm a very growth orientated, is it oriented? Orientated. Anyway, I'm a very growth oriented person. And I, I hate the idea of people around me enabling toxic behavior that I'm exhibiting. If I don't know I'm doing it, you know, and I want someone to call me out and to tell me floss, you can't say this anymore. Or, okay, but when you do this, I feel this way. This is how it makes me feel. And I think the people I'm surrounded by

now in my friendships, we have the most beautiful connections because we don't hide those feelings from each other anymore. I think it is always hard telling someone that they've hurt your feelings or telling someone that they need to change something, but you push through the discomfort. And so many times, so many times that you do this, people's responses really surprise you. I've had so many uncomfortable conversations with friends and, or even like people I'm dating and I've told them something made me uncomfortable and they've changed it and they've gone, you know what, that's fine. We don't have to talk about that anymore. Thanks letting me know and again it's a boundaries thing and um yeah I think it's such a beautiful thing to just lay out your truth um to someone and how you're feeling because else it'll just turn into

uh passive aggressive behavior or you know you'll start talking about this person behind their back and that's always the conversation that you really should just be having with the person because they might change their behavior and if they don't they can see the door when you when we talk about this we've been framing it sometimes a lot to do with dating but actually I've been in positions as well where I fell out with loads of friends at school and it can be some one of the most crushing things ever but with your friendships I think one thing that is so important is actually implementing this and finding not just with dating but with friendships finding people who are alike because I know that lots of women feel this way right now they're like maybe I can't reach out to someone like how how can I call my friends into this conversation and you're allowed you're allowed to have those

ways of having these conversations with your friends that aren't attacking and they're not accusing and to quote you again you can't cancel someone for something you've just stopped doing yourself it's really positive to want the people around you to grow and that this shouldn't be something you shouldn't be worried about um you know oh my god I'm going to tread on someone's toes if I say something I don't feel comfortable them speaking about this because that's just them showing you who they are if they can't then change that behavior yeah I think I think that I like to give people a chance to correct their behavior in my friendships and um, um, but it depends on how this person responds to your, uh, calling in. I think I like to call in my friends. I tell my friends,

Hey, when you talk about this, it makes me feel this way. Um, it's nothing you've done wrong. It's just a trigger for me. Can you not say this anymore? Um, if they respond in a way that is shit, thank you so much for telling me this. I had no idea that's how it made you feel. Don't even worry. It won't come up again. That's all how that conflict needs to be. But I've had situations where it doesn't happen like that. And the person will get defensive. But then maybe in a couple of days time, they apologize and say, shit, I'm fucking sorry. My ego is at play there. And I wasn't listening to you that's not going to happen again and I leave so much room for mistakes in my friendships um and there but there are some things where people are repetitively causing harm and you do that and then you do have to cut them out

um but and I think it's about relinquishing the guilt over that you know because then you end up having these awful emotionally abusive friendships and it's so funny because the way you speak and the way you write in your book is exactly how you are in real life. Like you genuinely will say those things in that way. And I remember I sometimes find it jarring because some of my other friendships that I've had for years with different people,

we don't communicate like that. And actually it's a really healthy communication boundary that we aren't used to exercising. We don't tend to use this language. But the more that you familiarize yourself with it the more the less anxious you feel I don't have anxiety but I as I'm getting older I start to feel more anxious in situations and I think right now as well that's even more heightened and when someone approaches a conversation and so for instance you will always ask me can I hi I'm just wondering do you have space to talk about something right now don't

worry if not and the freedom that that gives me of me thinking oh my god I don't have to say yes I can talk to you about this right now yeah there's less resentment and I think it's it's such a cool thing to have and I think it's such an empowering thing and all of this it is a massive learning journey and and I've again I've said this like 10 times but I've learned so much from you and it's so fascinating to see how empowered you can become, but it doesn't mean that we are without faults. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I have, I have learned, so you're saying you've learned a lot from me. I learned a lot from, um, other people's communication styles. I remember when I first started, when I came out and I first started dating women, I went on a date with this girl

and it was very casual. And then she texted me a week later and said, Hey floss, I just want to let you know, I don't think, I don't think this is going to work out. I don't think we can go on another date because I'm seeing someone and it's getting serious. Um, just what I'd let you know. Thanks for everything. Like best of luck. And that was the first time I'd ever been given closure, um, with a date and it blew my mind. I was like, wow, I don't even feel, I don't even feel shit right now. You know, sure. My ego is going to take a little hit. Like everyone feels shit when they're, when someone doesn't want them or whatever. But the first time that someone had, um, given me closure after a casual day and it

completely blew my mind. And it also made me realize how low the fucking bar was for men because men generally just don't do that they will ghost you or whatever and after that I was like shit that was amazing I'm gonna do that to any single person that I don't want to date anymore and I have been doing that so many times last year I would just text the person and say hey thank you so much for last night but that's as far as I'd like to like it to go I don't think we're very compatible I like to give people closure because I like to receive closure and there's no one else to hold me accountable for that. You know, these are, these are the little steps that I have to take to, um, to even be worthy of receiving it back. You know, I can't expect one thing from other people and then not be doing that myself. So I always like to give

closure to people. I like to allow people room to say no to me. I think that's the thing that I like to do. I like to create an environment where people feel safe to say no to me. I don't want people ever to feel like they can't say no to me. That is a toxic environment. And it's not always one that you are guilty of perpetuating yourself you know sometimes people put put me on a pedestal and I'm in this weird position where they they don't say their own desires so that's very uncomfortable for me um and I usually just don't involve myself in those kind of dynamics where someone has me on a pedestal because I also can't be vulnerable I'm not allowed to make mistakes if someone has me on a pedestal and it's

it's not a good environment to thrive in so you just kind of relieve that environment you know um I love I just love I love being in environments where I feel like I can say no and that the other person can also say no I think that there's so much room to grow in those kinds of friendships and relationships when I first heard the phrase safe space I remember not really knowing what it meant and as I familiarized myself the things that you're talking about like consent is so much more than just what happens in the bedroom as you have spoken about you know we've got to be consenting to all the things that we're entering into and that could be a new work relationship or a friendship or just anything has to feel like

we're both as or however many people are willing and happy to be entering into this. But boundaries for people that don't have them can be triggering. And I put something up the other day about how I didn't want white women to respond in a certain way to something I'd said because I was happy it wasn't for us to say. And that can bring up lots of emotions for people who haven't explored this before. And it's interesting because it is so, where you are right now is you've arrived and it's taken so much work and I think that's the thing we need to consider is these things don't happen overnight it really takes and it's painful a lot of the things that I had to unlearn or recognize in myself was really painful to do but it was so worthwhile but it didn't happen

overnight yes it is uncomfortable and it takes a lot of shedding old skins and I think there's a lot of discomfort with um growing we feel guilty for growing because we leave people behind and that's what I want I want to tell women is that you don't you should not feel guilty for leaving people behind because if a relationship requires you to stay down there to stay stagnant to stay um as a doormat without boundaries that was never a good relationship for you anyway if a relationship requires you to to be toxic in order for this relationship to sustain itself if a relationship or a friendship requires you to be this shrunken version that is not allowed to explore like

you know their own identity if you're not allowed to explore your own identity and change and evolve then that was never a good uh environment for you to begin with and that's when i you know there's no such thing as a safe space you know it doesn't like really exist because everywhere has bias or uh insecurities or projections or whatever it is there's no such thing really as a safe space, but there are safer spaces. And I think that the safest spaces that I operate in now could be between me and my very close friends who feel like we can say no to each other. We can have uncomfortable conversations and we allow each other to change. My friends now, including yourself, do not become attached to versions of

me that they knew two years ago. And they know not to do that because I am constantly evolving. I'm changing all the time. Even my gender expression, it changes every few months as I learn more about how much of it was performed for men and how much of it was performed because I actually liked it. You know, all of these things are evolving and I cannot be in a place where someone is attached to a version of me because then I cannot grow. And I think that is why it's been so amazing for me to be single for two years, because I haven't had an external influence, apart from patriarchy and apart from just living in the world as a woman. There hasn't been this set of eyes on me, making me feel guilty for changing. There's no one telling

me, oh, that's not like you to do this because there's no one, everyone in my life loves that I'm constantly evolving. And I think everyone deserves that. Yeah, completely. And it can be, it can be so frustrating when you feel like you are tied into this identity that you no longer, I've had it before where people that I haven't seen for years will bring up stuff as if it's like how I still act now and it's like we have to allow and I'm very allowing of change I think because I have changed so much and I have grown so much and I do I do give people that not necessarily you but just generally I always hope that everyone is able to access a newer happier version of themselves that allows them to be who they truly are and I think the fundamental part of the thread that runs through all of your work is like we can only do this for ourselves

and no one is going to be able to do it for us so we can't be occupying ourselves by projecting onto other people what they think they are or worrying too much and we have to call people into the conversation but fundamentally every time something happens we've got to kind of reflect back and be like how do I deal with that situation what can I take away from it and what can I learn yeah what kind of situations do you mean do you mean like situations of conflict or yeah I guess like sometimes there'll be something going on where it's not my place to comment on it and sometimes my ego will want me to be like virtue signal maybe yeah okay sure okay oh absolutely I think I think as white women it's

like we especially when we like dominate these spaces on the internet where we talk about feminism it's this reluctant it's this feeling like oh i should say something about this because um we're so used to people wanting to hear us and it's like oh everyone wants to hear what i have to say and again that's telling your ego no hon this is not this is not your fucking lane stop talking i've been corrected so many times um by black women on the internet to told to stay in my lane or told that I shouldn't be talking about um cultural appropriation and that I should just be sharing other people's work and I am so fucking grateful to those people because without those people correcting me or calling me in um I'd still be in my old ways of centering my emotions in an issue that isn't mine and being

called in I had a friend um who's still one of my best friends. And she just, it was like a, I can't remember what happened, but it was something where she just basically called me out on a behavior. And I immediately got defensive. And then actually I thought about it and I'm still grateful to her to this day because it took so much love for her to be like, look, I actually just need you to realize that the way you're acting right now is just, and it's just, and I remember being like, oh my God.

And even now to this day, I'm still like, like oh my god I love you so much for that because there've been people where I've just felt like I don't have the energy or the emotional capacity to to do that and I think it take it really comes from a real place of love if a friend is willing to be like look I want to help you because it is it's helpful yeah and also it's it it's an act of them trying to preserve your relationship it's absolutely an act of love and I think it means that they want to preserve the relationship with you and that they're not hold they're not willing to let this relationship fester into a breeding ground of resentment for every time that you have to be at the you know in same spaces or you have to um you have, you know, in same spaces or you have to, um, you have to, you know,

like texting people resentfully and all that kind of stuff. I've had friendships like this, like my whole life. And I'm only just, I think it's, it's really odd because the thing with boundaries, you know, you'll say, Oh, you're so good at this. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm okay upsetting boundaries, but I am a human being. I'm 21 and I'm still learning so fucking much. Like it's taken me 20. I think it was when I was about 20 years old that I learned the concept of boundaries fully. And I just became obsessed with it. You know, that's 20 years of being a doormat to other people. And then also probably overstepping other people's boundaries because I didn't know what they were. And I didn't know that it was a violation of someone's personal law. Like that's what your boundaries are. It's your own law.

And people who cross them, that's a violation of your law. And I think if it's taken me 20 years of practicing this acting through subconscious mind or in survival mode, as some people call it, it's going to take so long to fully rinse out my system. I just don't think that's even entirely possible. And sometimes you can go the other way, you know, if, if you have this feeling of you've been hurt before, then you go the other way and you put all of these walls up and you don't let anybody in. And it's, and it's, and I've done that so many times and it was only last year that I started reaching out to my friends for help. You know, I even feel, I even feel guilty and only asking you for help sometimes. And I think it takes a lot to ask for help

without feeling like you're being a burden or I don't know, it's finding this middle ground where you respect yourself by asking for help, but you also respect the other person and say, do you have time to help me? And I think that's where it becomes healthy. You know, you ask for help, but you ask the person if they have the space to help you.

And of course, no one is expecting you to be perfect, but you ask the person if they have the space to help you and of course no one is expecting you to be perfect but you do you have arrived you say 20 years I'm 26 and it's taken me much longer but there's the everything has a positive and negative side to it so as you say asking for help is really helpful but I also used to be the kind of person where I would always make it about me and always be asking for help with my problems and that's not helpful so there's there's everyone's balance is slightly different yes that's so true there's it's not like that the act or whatever it is in of itself is necessarily negative it's always in how it's applied and how it's carried out and as you say it's always about responding and not reacting and that's a huge lesson which I think all of us need to really like concentrate on more because our natural instinct is just to react and go and actually if you sit

with things and take a bit of time over them which is the odds to the world that we live in that's so instantaneous and we feel like everything's got to be oh my god it's so it's so quick it's it's this um I think that was what was interesting about doing the book it was a long-term gratification as opposed to an instant one that I'm used to with Instagram you know and only like we'll put something on Instagram and then we get response instantly I wrote this book um the proposal I wrote the proposal a year and a half ago and it came out two weeks ago so that is like the longest time I've had to wait to get response on something and that is why this whole thing just feels so weird it feels so weird and I think I think it was a good practice of um delaying gratification um but yeah it's just what you were saying about instant gratification and

um the instant quick reaction culture of social media I think think that was it. When you react, you react from a place of your ego, which is the defensiveness, right? Because you cannot believe that this person is saying something that counteracts your reality, your ego, and the stories that you believe of yourself in your head. So when someone presents new information to you, we can have a habit to react. And that is why whenever there's a situation of conflict, I like to take 24 hours or however long it is. Maybe it does need responding to immediately because I've never had this happen. It's never imminent danger. But however long you feel necessary to respond once you've considered the person's perspective, once you have empathized with their perspective, but also stay true to your reality of the situation and I think yeah there's reacting instead of responding instead

of reacting is something that I again it's just like accountability just like setting boundaries just like practicing consent all of this stuff is like is what I live by now because I realized how important it was. And just learning this language has been so fucking empowering because it's given me the tools to Google stuff and to find out more information about these concepts. Well, I am just for one so grateful that you, well, it's a shame that we all have to go through these traumas in order to cut the other side. But I really think that when we talk about, we often have spoken about together about how like breakups are like a rebirth and I felt the same way and I feel like your rebirth which you've now packaged up into a beautiful book will really help other women and men and non-binary people to access these same lessons which I think are so

crucial to us all healing and growing and just becoming better humans um so I am forever grateful for you thank you is there anything else you wish that we'd spoken about that we haven't um I don't think so I don't know I mean that we could literally go on forever but I don't think there's anything else no that's good I've absolutely loved this chat I think that it's been it's been perfect yeah thanks for having me babes oh my god you're so welcome thanks so much for coming on apart from following you on Instagram your book, is there anything else that you would like to direct people to do at this moment in time? Google stuff that you don't understand. And I mean that in the most loving way possible. It's again, like I said, I practice accountability

and consent. Googling stuff is part of my life part of my life if I don't understand something I google it and if I see something if I feel an emotion I'm uncomfortable with I literally google it to better understand myself and I think that is something that I would recommend everybody does because there's nothing more amazing than understanding yourself and understanding your behaviors to kind of um to grow completely I love that thank you so much for coming on and being a guest I absolutely love you um and I'm sure I'll chat to you later um thank you everyone for listening and I will see you next week. Bye. FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

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