Adulting - #79 Life In Lockdown with Dawn O'Porter

Episode Date: October 4, 2020

Hey Podulters, I hope you're well! In this episode I speak to Dawn O'Porter about her latest book Life In Pieces, as well as how lockdown has changed her approach to parenting, and why we shouldn't always be available to everyone all the time!Dawn's Top Three Books;Ghosts, Dolly AldertonOranges Are Not The Only Fruit, Jeanette WintersonJane Eyre, Charlottte BronteI hope you enjoy :) as always please do rate, review & subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.casino.fand you're well. In this week's episode, I speak to the wonderful Dawn O'Porter about her new book, Life in Pieces. We discuss life in lockdown, weed gummies, being a writer, and loads more. It was such a treat to speak to Dawn and I've wanted to speak to her forever. So I really

hope you enjoy it as much as I do and do make sure to get a copy of her new book. Bye. Hello and welcome to Adelting. Today I'm joined by Dawn O'Porter. Hi, I'm Dawn O'Porter. How are you doing? I just remember we're on completely different time zones, aren't we? Yeah, it's 10.30am here and I'm fine. I'm good. Oh, good. Well, it's a weird old time and I know that that's what we're going to be talking about with your latest book. But for people who don't know who you are and what you do, could you give us an introduction to you? Yes. So I'm Dawn O'Porter. I'm a writer and I am, God, what else?

I'm a woman. I am a mother of two. I am a wife. I used to make documentaries on the BBC and Channel 4 and now I live in Los Angeles and type like my life depends on it I for one I'm so excited I'm talking to you because I'm sure like so many other women and men I absolutely adore you and just think you're so fantastic and I was really excited to see the little bit of the press release from Life in Pieces and I've read some of your fiction before but I don't think I've ever read any non-fiction by you have you done non-fiction before? I have but years and years and years ago I did a really a book about internet dating before anyone was really internet dating

when I was about 25 but I haven't since so yeah it's a different experience sharing yourself than hiding behind characters. When you started writing this I know that it's based different experience sharing yourself than hiding behind characters. When you started writing this, I know that it's based on kind of like diary entries. Were those diary entries designed always to be read? Or was it an organic thing you're writing and then you thought, actually, this could be something that's a publishable thing? It was a blog. So I was writing, when lockdown started started I started writing a daily diary as a

blog and posting it and um it became an obsession where that first three months when we really weren't allowed to leave the house I uh I kind of did around a 500 word blog every night about what had happened that day kind of mundane things that ended up being quite funny. And yeah, I posted it and the readers just really enjoyed it, which spurred me on to keep going. But it wasn't until about three or four months later that my publishers said, we could make this into a book if you want to. But that was never, ever the intention when I started. I was writing to a very small audience because I've got a subscription only blog. So what that means is I have readers, but it's not like Instagram where you've got loads of people looking at it.

It's very small, very select group of people who are willing to kind of, you know, be a part of this. And so I was very open in a way that I wouldn't normally be open because it felt quite private and intimate. So when it came to turning it into a book, I didn't love the idea immediately because I didn't really like the idea of being so public about my family and me and my feelings. But as lockdown went on, I think I realised that 2020, we either share and open up or we don't leave the house and we keep everything to ourselves I just felt like oh it's actually really nice to tell everybody everything that's going on quite therapeutic rather than feel like as it's almost as if you know you physically can't go out so mentally you have to open up and um and that's how the book came about I I think that as well for a lot of people as well you do offer you're always quite whether or not

you you're much more unguarded in this piece of work you're always someone that's really down to earth and really entertaining to watch because I feel like you do you're you're naturally you've got a natural proclivity to just kind of say whatever pops into your head and I've never really felt with with your writing the way that you are that it feels too guarded so it's interesting that you felt like this was suddenly like another layer of revealing your your truth I guess yeah I mean I guess what I mean by that is say in terms of parenting like I've never really talked about the kids before or the kind of intimate details of being at home and I think I've kind of developed this style of writing until now, writing in a way where people think they're getting a massive insight, but actually,

I don't really give away that much information. And I think I gave away a lot more personal information in this book than I have done in a long time. But as kind of writing columns, I used to be columnist for Glamour magazine, and I really miss that style of writing where, you know, you kind of write about your experience of something. And when the magazine shut down, I didn't have anywhere to put that. I didn't have anywhere to write that kind of article. And so I didn't think I was ever going to blog again either, as well as I never thought I'd write a book like this, but it was actually just really nice to have somewhere to put it. So many feelings in lockdown

I think that's what took me by surprise life got really small but feelings got massive how you I know that you've had a really difficult year in other ways as well and I don't want to make you talk about anything that would be potentially upsetting but how are you feeling now that we've kind of come through and I know god it's it's difficult I don't know I don't actually know what's going on right now in the US I know it's probably even more complicated but it looks like we're going into a second lockdown do you feel like you've had kind of a big arc and a growth through that period now that you know things are changing a bit what are you feeling like now you're sort of out the other side of one large swathe of time in lockdown well the truth is I in California

it's not really changed in months. Like, when I was talking to people back in London, you've kind of been living relatively normally for the last few months. That's not the case for us. The schools are not open here. My oldest is not going to school this year, likely. We don't see any more than six people at a time. We haven't since March. We've had to wear masks every time we leave the house since March. No parties, no gatherings. All the restaurants and bars are shut, but some restaurants are open, but outside. Nothing's really changed for us. We never got that feeling of massive relief in the middle. So we're still very much in lockdown and presume that we'll be in this situation until spring or summer of next year.

So even though, so the way I'm feeling is I've just got used to it. This is just life now. We have a really tiny life with a really small group of people that we're doing the best we can to be as normal as possible for the kids in that kind of scenario. But I mean, you know, considering a year ago, we were, well, it was the Emmys this time a year ago, weirdly, just to put a date on it. And Chris was nominated and won an Emmy. So we were going to all those massive parties and we were having, you know, dressing up and going to these parties with like well over a thousand people at them. And it's just so weird to think that that's just not happening this year. They did the Emmys on Zoom and everyone is just kind of at home

and nothing's really, and everyone's just got a bit used to it. So I feel those first few months were really stressful as we kind of felt like our lives had been snatched away from us. People grieving in different ways. Me grieving because I'd lost a friend.

Other people grieving because they'd lost people through COVID. Other people grieving because they couldn't see the people that they love. Everyone grieving because they couldn't live the life they wanted to live. But now there's almost like this kind of plateau feeling of plodding along. I feel quite calm, to be honest. Like, I could do this for a while.

I was just thinking when you're talking about parties, in some of the excerpts that I've read from the book, I was loving you talking about your wine but mostly about the weed gummies because we also don't have those and I have a friend that loves going to LA and she loves weed gummies and now I'm just like obsessed with this idea that I need to try them but I can't come to the earth to get them I know it's wild I actually haven't been taking I haven't taken any weed gummies in a while that was like the first three months where I was just like, what the fuck is happening? And so much childcare. And so we couldn't have any childcare at all. So Chris and I were just family the whole way.

And just like every day, we just kind of pop a weed gummy mid-afternoon just to kind of help float through the rest of the day. And the weird thing is about it, because it's legal here, marijuana is completely legal here. The stigma has gone out of it. So because it's legal here. Marijuana is completely legal here. The stigma has gone out of it. So because it's illegal in the UK, the idea of someone having a weed gummy, it feels kind of controversial in some way. But here, it's not like you're really stoned and, you know, vegged out on the sofa, not able to do anything. It's like having half a glass of wine, the ones that I take. It's just like, that's the best way to describe it. half a glass of wine, the ones that I take. That's the best way to describe it. Half a glass of wine that just takes the edge off the stress.

So that, for those first few months of lockdown, was just helpful. It was really, really nice. And I love them and I'm so grateful for them. I've got a big box of them on a very high shelf with a lock on it so the kids don't find them. But it's such a good drug. it's such a better drug than alcohol yeah no I think that'd be completely up my street and I but the only problem is I absolutely love sweets anyway and I think I would end up eating way too many and then probably not be in that really calm state you're talking about and god knows what would happen um but apart from apart from a glass

of wine and the odd weed gummy you've obviously been writing throughout so how was your like creative process and not that I've I found it really difficult to kind of get anything new down on paper or anything really innovative happening um but I guess maybe because it was a bit more of like a a commentary on what was going on did that feel a bit easier are you missing um like writing fiction is that something you're going to be starting soon yeah I mean I didn't because I didn't this because I wasn't writing a book I was just doing like funny diary entries every night it was no pressure there was no pressure at all and because of the lack of pressure I am you know

after three months had a big body of work that my publisher then said do you want to turn into a book and um but I don't think I'd have been able to do it if I thought that it was going to be a book, because I think that it would have felt really, really stressful. But actually, it was really fun for me. There was no demands on me. It was just something that I really enjoyed writing after the kids went to bed every night. So as soon as it turned into a book and I had to like edit it and write the essays that are in the book, then it got really hard and really stressful. So I think the only reason I was so productive is because it didn't really matter if I did it or not. But now I've got a lot of work to do. So, but now we can have childcare now. So it's easier, you know, I don't have to look after the kids all day.

But during that time when I had them all day, that was the only time I could write was after I put them to bed. And then I'd have like a half an hour window before I was so tired, I'd just pass out. I love some of the passages that I've read about your children. And the ethos of this podcast

is to try and figure out all of the things that we don't get taught in school and that we're not equipped for. And I love it when you talk about parenting because I find it so funny when you say how you suddenly wake up and you realize that you're this woman with two kids and that you've got to send them to school and that you can't believe it because you're imagining yourself in a one-bed flat with a cat and I wonder if I wonder I could imagine myself being in the same kind of scenario and I wonder when when parenting when does it actually take hold and you feel like oh my god I'm a mum now is that a feeling that ever happens I don't have children um and whenever I read you talking about parenthood I'm like oh I'm glad that

you don't suddenly switch off the woman that you were before they're still there and very much sometimes overriding whatever mum switches on I think that I think that's right for so many parents and I think the reason why parenting is so hard is because you've been, you've lived a whole life without these kids and no matter how much you love them and no matter how, um, you know, how much you've got going for you, whether you've got a nice house or finances or family around, or, you know, whatever good you've got going on, it was still easier before you had them. You were still able to live your life for yourself. And so I just think it's honest to say that there can be, you can love your child right away, but that doesn't mean you're used to being a mother right away and you don't miss the

old you. But what lockdown did for me was, I feel like I've always been so career driven and so into my job and a mum as well but doing both with equal passion at the same time which is great and probably how it should be but when lockdown happened my career just didn't really matter anymore and I know I've come out of it with a book but like I said I didn't mean to it was a bit of an accident. So, and it was easy to write because I was doing it kind of casually, but I said to everybody else that I was supposed to be working for, I'm not going to, I can't do it. I need, I need to just look after my kids. I'm not going to do my job. I'm going to do, I'm going to do a really good job of being a mum. And so after like months and months and months of just doing nothing but parenting, I'm so engaged with it now, so much better at it.

I'm so, so close to my kids. I'm so, rather than seeing childcare is really stressful and like, oh God, I've got, I'm going to have the kids. Oh God. Okay. I won't be able to do anything else. I've just got really good at just focusing on them and not trying to do anything else, which was really different for me and really extraordinary. I know that it's hard for all working parents, but when you're a writer, I'm never not working. I'm always thinking of

ideas. I'm always wanting to be at my computer writing. And I felt like I said, in a minute, in a minute, in a minute, when mommy's done this, when mommy's done this all the time. And now my kids just have my focus so much more and I've got much better at putting them first I know that sounds terrible but they come first over everything now that that slight balance that it took me a while to establish of um what's more important letting go of my old life where all I had to think about was work to just being more focused on the kids. And I like it this way. It's nice, but it just, it took something like lockdown for me to be really settled into being a mum, not feel, you know, I get to the school gate before and be like, what am I doing here? This is so weird. I'm not a school mum. I'm not, this isn't

who I am. Kind of hi, hi, morning, morning, and then just get in the car and drive off. And now I'm like really good friends with all the school mums Valentine's started going back and I like stop and chat to everyone before I was just like kind of in and out so I think it's done a lot of good for me in in that way I mean there's a helicopter going over my house I don't know if you can hear that sorry if that's quite loud um but I think I've become way more engaged way better at playing way more um just I really I just enjoy parenting more which is a ridiculous thing to say after lockdown but I do and now they're going now Valentine's going going to

preschool and art's in a pod so when I drop them off and I miss them during the day can you imagine I miss them when I have like done nothing but miss them during the day can you imagine I miss them when I like done nothing but be with them for months and then suddenly I'm like oh is it pick up time yet I want to see them which is fucking crazy to me but that's how it is. Do you think that some of your resistance about being a school mum was because you were worried that it would take away your identity as as part of your work because I feel like for so many women when your career when you have built such a big career and you really are you know at the forefront of what you're doing and you're it's it's quite magnificent to have such a big career as a woman

but then did you feel like you couldn't have those things coinciding do you think that this has maybe taught you that neither one diminishes the other no it's not that although it probably is subliminally but more it was more about the fact that um I didn't want to get roped into that school life I don't care I want to be the kind of money you know I don't care about the PTA and the all the fundraising and I don't want to make I didn't want to make costumes and like um have to do arts and crafts at home and do all that I just you know I want to drop them off at school and pick them up from school. And when they're not at school, I get on with my life. And that's what I was,

I don't want to stand around and talk about parenting and methods of parenting. And I'm just not interested in any of that. So, you know, it's entirely me being awful. But now throughout lockdown, talking to other parents about parenting has been honestly one of the most valuable things to just have this kind of shared experience of the hard things and the good things. So I have a WhatsApp group with all the mums in arts class. And it's like a big WhatsApp therapy group.

It's absolutely amazing. And I love these women. And I can't believe that I was thinking that I would you know have a kid in school and not get involved now I'm you know I'm going to be running the PCA by this time next year I'm going to be a nightmare I'm going to get really really involved when they all go back to school but it's fun and it's fun and if you engage in parenting rather than say things like oh you know oh god the other mums and all the other parents and just think through through my kid going to school I've met so many amazing people who are all living the

shared experience that we are of being parents and as soon as you open yourself up to that world it's just so much better than trying to exist on the periphery of it and not get involved so I've just I think I've just become a nicer person throughout lockdown essentially what I'm saying one of the bits that really made me laugh in some of the excerpts that I read was when you were talking about the perfect parenting like Instagram hole that you can even I got stuck in and I look at it and I think oh my god that actually looks quite fun maybe I could just have a baby it looks so easy and then you were explaining like I never you never feel any kind of way about those images

and you go into this long story about what happens after the mum's been standing by the kid in this really sweet photo. And it's a really funny playing out of like all the disastrous things that happen afterwards. And I think that your way with talking about things and even being really forthright and saying, I didn't want to get stuck in with the PTA. And I don't think that's awful. I think it's actually really relieving and like important that we talk about things as if it's like we're not always going to be good at everything and you don't have to want to be the best at every part of your life. And I think that's what's really attractive in some of your writing. And I know that So Lucky was fiction, but you also tapped into that kind of idea of, you know, actually holding up a mirror to what's reality rather than trying to exist in this virtual perfectionism that we all know is kind of

all a facade. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the thing is with Instagram, of course, everybody's putting their best bits on display. Of course they are. And especially in parenting, you know, there's so much people talk about the smug mum scene, which is, that's the bit in the book that you're referring to. And all the smugness of it's all, you know, so nice. It's okay for people to share the nice pictures of them and their family and, you know, the nice moments because we all know that parenting is not like that all the time. We all know that life isn't like that all the time. So take, you know, parents out of it. People want to put their best pictures of themselves on Instagram. Of course they do. Why would they not? Of course, they're going to show, you know, a picture of them and

their boyfriend looking really happy rather than the fight they had the next day like I think we just all got to be so understanding of to compare yourself to someone's Instagram version of their life is ridiculous because um they're only people don't want to share the bad stuff and they want to look great and they want to come across great. So I just think sometimes when you kind of strip that back the veneer of Instagram, I just remember that no one's life is fantastic all the time. No one's parenting experience is fantastic all the time. No one's relationship is. Nothing is.

But it's okay to put a picture up that pretends that it is because we all know it's not true. But I just think some people, I've got friends who get so upset about it and compare themselves to other mums on Instagram. But they make it look so nice and she always wears white. I can't wear white because my kids would just, you know, spill food on it. And I'm like, she was covered in food five minutes later and we just didn't see that picture. I think it's quite funny.

I quite like the smug mum scene. It makes me laugh. I think it's quite funny I quite I quite like I quite like the smug mum scene it makes me laugh I think it's funny as I think it's really I think it's really powerful to have that ability to see behind the imagery because I think this I think and I think I hope that maybe actually what will happen out of this pandemic is this want for people to be a bit more honest because and as you talk about like with being with family more, we start to recognize what the really important things are in life as opposed to all of the things that seemed so important before. I wondered if throughout the course of writing the book, you're saying about having more family time and that you feel like you've become a better person, but what other, if there are any other big like revelations that have happened

during this period that, you know that you weren't expecting at the beginning of the year? I think one big one for me is that I've always wanted a massive life of loads of friends. I want people to know who I am, get my work out there, reach far. And actually what lockdown has taught me is that I actually quite like the small life I quite like being so you so we're recording this podcast now and I love you because it's not visual something that's driven me absolutely bananas in the last year especially in lockdown is how to have a conversation with someone it has to be on video and I just think I've realized I don't like being on camera I don't enjoy it unless it's on my terms and I've decided to make you know a piece of tv or a video but all of this

like um just everybody's got to be on all the time I realized that that was a really nice thing for me to realize about myself is that I don't want to be on show anymore I don't want to be the one kind of out there like I haven't really even done any Instagram stories I don't want to be on show anymore I like writing I don't mind pictures but I this kind of idea that I have to perform all the time was something that I think I've always felt I had to do and something that I I thought I always felt that I needed to do to like promote my books. And actually lockdown has taught me that I can just exist behind my computer. I don't have, no one has to see my face if I don't want them to see it. I've loved that revelation. It's really nice. And I have stopped feeling like I have, yeah, I have to be on show to do well um that's a really nice thing for me to

realize because of the kind of life that I've always lived of kind of being in the public eye but what else have I realized I've I've realized that I really am very comfortable in myself physically because I just ate for five months and I really apart from the fact that my clothes didn't fit which I get really frustrated about just I don't want to have to buy new clothes but I really was really comforted by how I responded to like eating too much if I'm honest with you if I'm honest with you was like, I really don't care if my body check, you know, fluctuates and goes up and down in weight. It used to really, you know, it used to be a thing. And I've really got to a point in my life where if I'm five pounds over because there's

a global pandemic and I'm sitting on my ass eating pies all day, I'm, I'm totally fine with it. And if I'm, you know, if I've managed to kind of exercise for a month and actually do quite well, and I lose five pounds, I'm fine with that too. And it was really nice to know that I'm just very comfortable within myself. FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance at the number one feeling. Winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do.

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Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com. Please play responsibly. I think that's so interesting, especially about having the video on. I completely agree. I do that very much on purpose. There's a reason that I do podcasting and not YouTube is I like audio. I don't want to be filmed either. And I think it's really freeing that you've realized

that you don't have to do that. And it's funny because I loved your Instagram stories. No, I love them too. Sorry, I jumped in. I love doing them too. And I do miss them, but it was just, I used to feel like I had to keep it up. I had to keep momentum up. And now I realized I haven't done an Instagram story for probably five months.

And that's not purposeful. I didn't decide to stop doing Instagram stories. If anyone doesn't know who I am, I used to just do these really silly Instagram stories all the time. And I love them, but I just haven't felt that. Like sometimes I go, I'll put my phone up and go, I'll do something. I love them. But I just haven't felt that, like sometimes I go,

I'll put my phone up and go, I'll do something. I don't really, I just can't be bothered. But I used to feel like it was, I had to do it for some reason. And I've just lost that. No, the same thing happened with me.

And I run a book club and we did, I don't know if you've read Gia Tolentino's Trick Mirror, but she talks a bit about this. It's really good. I think you'd really enjoy it. It's on essays on self-delusion and it's all about like the internet

and the modern world. And there was a bit in it about surveillance and how we're constantly performing and we feel like we have to perform. And as you were saying, like suddenly things will all fall apart if we're not keeping up this image. And the same thing happened to me in lockdown

where I went through a period of doing a lot of work and then suddenly everything stopped. And I was like, well, that's it. I'm going to lose, everything's going to me in lockdown where I went to a good doing a lot of work and then suddenly everything stopped and I was like well that's it like I'm gonna lose everything's gonna end I'm not gonna have any work and then I just stopped working for it and I never watched Netflix and I just binged so much Netflix and then I didn't lose my job and nothing changed and it was all fine and I suddenly was like okay so you know like you I enjoy certain aspects of doing things on camera and being visible. But I, part of the want to do it was also motivated by something that didn't come from me, but from this inherent idea that like you were saying, you have to be self-promoting and available, I guess, and accessible to people. But that's not true. No. And also I got really, um, I just got really

turned off the internet earlier this year. So I left Twitter just cause I, I just got really turned off the internet earlier this year. So I left Twitter just because I just suddenly felt like, why? The thing is, no matter how many followers you've got on Twitter, you can guarantee that half of them don't actually give a shit about anything you've got to say. So you're putting stuff out there to a really kind of just a non-committed audience who don't really care about what you're going to say. And then I was also just witnessing so many fights that I wasn't involved in, but just watching other people's aggro play out day after day. And then I'd find myself like walking the dog and thinking

about some fight I'd seen on Twitter that I wasn't even a part of. I'm just thinking, why am I, why have I taken that negativity into my head? So I left Twitter and it was such a relief. I donated it to Choose Love and I just walked away from it after a good kind of eight years of being heavily addicted to it. And I regretted it in terms of news updates. I had got no idea what's going on in the world. So I regretted it in that. But in terms of the time I got back of my life, I just felt such relief. And then I set up this, because here's the thing about me, I really do love sharing. I love writing. I love being open, but I don't want to give that part of myself to people who don't care. So when I write a book, the only people who buy that book are willing to spend their money are people who

are interested in what I've got to say. People who don't like me don't buy the book. So it's quite a safe space. And then same with the blog, because I set up a Patreon blog earlier this year. So it's $4 to subscribe, which is a terrifying thing for a writer to do. It means asking people for money. It's awful. But all the magazines that I wanted to write for have shut down. I love writing and I wanted to get paid for it. I don't think writers should write for free on the internet. I think it's ruined writing as a career. And I think it's definitely something we all need to look at. So I started up this blog where you pay $4 and I write my socks off for you. And what I love about it is that I've created this little corner of the internet and everybody who is there

reading my work, it's a minuscule amount of people compared to who is on my Instagram, but all of them are interested in what I've got to say. All of them are happy to read my work. And it just feels like I can be so open and honest and have a real laugh and be brave in what I'm writing and put so much out there. The really horrible thing about the internet is that you don't know who's watching you. And I just got really, I just fell out of love with that this year. And I just thought if I'm going to work hard, if I'm going to share myself, I'm going to share myself with people who want to read it. And that's a big revelation that's come out of lockdown for

me is, you know, kind of carving out a kind of a group of readers who are interested in what I have to say, rather than throwing my work out there into the ether and getting negativity back, because a bunch of people who don't like me also get to see it. I really recommend this to anybody who writes. You know, it's the same with your podcast. No one sits through your podcast who doesn't like you or want to hear your interviews because you, you know, it's a decision someone has to make to listen to something like this and subscribe and all of that. So you've got to have got this safe group of readers who are into what you do. And it's really lovely. I love podcasts for that reason, but just like throwing words out I just finally felt Twitter really and you know then a blog that isn't protected in some way that everyone can share I find really I don't like that

either um so like I said you get kind of I've done it in a way where so few people read my work, but I love them and I'm really happy to work hard for them. I think that's so smart and putting those boundaries and like I can imagine with everything going on this year, I think all of us maybe, especially with your friend and what happened in that situation as well, I think that really shocked people into feeling suddenly that this isn't as safe or as fun a space as we perhaps thought it was in terms of sharing and I think that it's really clever to to recognize there is a way to harness it because you don't want to lose those communities that you build I've actually been meaning to subscribe to your patreon for ages and I always forget um because I do love

you I did I did miss your stories and I know that you've got extra podcast episodes don't you and things on that do you with Chris or is it yeah I did yeah we did I did a I did a weekly podcast as well for about two months and so there's loads of episodes there where um I always kind of joked every week saying uh and today's guest is Chris O'Dowd because he's the only guest that I could get on the podcast because um you know you know with having a podcast asking people to be on it it's like oh I'm really sorry please will you be on my podcast please will you be on the podcast because, um, you know, you know, with having a podcast, asking people to be on it, it's like, Oh, that's really sorry. Please will you be on my podcast? Please will you be on my podcast? So I was like, I'm just not going to bother asking anybody. I'm just going to interview Chris every week. So it was really fun. But yeah, I mean, it's, um, it's a lot of work. I mean,

I work really hard. I post stuff constantly, but you know, I get a bit of money back for it. So it's worth my time financially. And I just have a really nice community of people. Like there'll be people listening to this podcast who are like, how can I, you know, build a, you know, a readership and a community. And it's just, I really recommend it as keeping yourself secure online. Yeah, totally. And I think it is, it is that thing of, I think it's really interesting what you're saying about, because I think this is something that as women, especially like we're taught that, you know, you have to like give all of yourself to get something back. And actually we've just learned that then if you do that, you will just kind of, everything will be taken from you. And if anything, you're only more

strengthened by kind of picking what you want to share and being a bit like you were saying, like you're very open, but it doesn't mean that you're telling everyone everything. And there's really clever ways that you can get people to feel close to you without having to reveal things that don't make you feel vulnerable in any way. And I think that's a really smart thing that you do in your writing and in the bits that I've read from the book, which are really hilarious and really touching, like little vignettes of your day or, you know, what you're making or what your children have been doing. But as you say, you shouldn't feel, I imagine it doesn't feel invasive to be sharing those snippets.

No, it feels really good and really nice to talk about all the stuff that I've talked about. And I was hoping, I did lose a friend at the beginning of all of this. So writing about grief was a really cathartic and strange thing, but I found it much easier to write about grief than to talk about grief. Like if Chris or one of my friends said, do you need to talk about it? I'd be like, I don't know how to put it into words. I've got nothing to say. I just feel so sad. But for some reason, when I try and write it, feelings come out. So keeping a diary is great, by the way. I used to keep a diary when I was a teenager and I haven't for years and I've regretted it, always regretted it.

So now essentially that's what I'm doing. And, you know, reading when the book got, it arrived to me a couple of days ago in print and I read it back and I was like, God, what an amazing thing to have about such a strange period of time to literally have a daily diary. And I think that's what I really love about blogging is that's essentially what it is. You're just logging life. It's such an interesting thing to do. I really recommend it to anybody who's like, you know, if lockdown happens again in London and everyone is kind of home, just write down, like, even if it's just a hundred words of what happens every day, it's such an amazing thing to have to look back on. There's all sorts of ways that, like when you have a baby, everyone gives you this, these books where it's like, write one thing that your baby did every day. And you never do because you're fucking knackered when you've got a newborn and you're

not sleeping and, oh God, it's been 10 days and I haven't written the one funny thing that happened every day this week. So it's just really difficult to keep up. But suddenly when you start to get your head back again when your kids are a bit older it's quite nice to write a little something down every day about funny things they say or things that you do or the bad days and why or I love the fact that I've got this you know this kind of yeah diary of this year I'm definitely going to keep going I've going. I used to keep a diary when I was little. I've got a bit of a phobia from them now because I think I wrote something like, I fancy Usher and I can't wait for sex education

when I was like five and my sisters found it and like teased me about it for weeks. And I honestly, even now I can like feel the feeling of like devastation and like violation that they'd gone through. And also because I didn't even know what sex education was but I'd found out we were getting it and I was so excited I couldn't wait and then I ever since then I've been so terrified about keeping a diary because my mum's really

nosy as well when I was younger and I was like she'll find it and she'll read it and I remember at the beginning of lockdown I was like I'm gonna keep a diary I'm gonna do yoga every day and I'm gonna get really good at baking and for the first first week, my boyfriend and I did yoga every day. Sometimes we were doing like twice a day. I was making all these cakes. And by the third week, I just couldn't get out of bed. I was like, I'm done. I just don't want to do this anymore.

But maybe next, this time I'll be more prepared. I mean, that energy that everyone had in those first couple of weeks is we're going to do this. We're going to do that. And then you just realize that no one did it. Chris and I had this really amazing schedule in the first week of like, we're going to do arts and crafts at 11 a.m. And three o'clock, we're going to do some sport. And after like 10 days, we were like, no, no schedule, free for all. Apart from like he would take the afternoon, he would take the morning with the kids and I would take the afternoon.

And that was as much of a schedule as we could manage. I just think we all realized that there was enough to worry about than trying to achieve and realized that pretty quickly but yeah no I had a diary when I was a teenager as well and one day it just disappeared and I have no idea who took it and it was really personal no idea no that's that's terrifying what did you do at the time? Yeah, it was traumatizing. I didn't say anything to anybody. Oh my God. I would have been absolutely beside myself.

I was so scared because what was in it was so revealing. And to this day, I don't know who took it. And I've never seen it since. Isn't that crazy? That is so mad. I honestly, it was actually a really scarring experience. I think about it all the time that it's maybe really secretive about things because you suddenly feel like you can't um you can't put things down on paper I'm even funny about it with like notes I'm I don't know if you do this but I'm kind of obsessed with writing notes on my phone about anything I'm feeling

um like if my boyfriend and I get in an argument I write out what really angry message I would send him but never send it and then I get really cagey about my biggest fear is that if my phone ever got hacked I wouldn't care if they leaked my nudes but if someone leaked my notes oh my god it would be awful I know I know I know it's really it's really terrible and it's just the idea of being violated in that way I do wonder sometimes if one of the reasons that I wanted to go into writing and almost like share my feelings even in the the way that I have is that um is all connected to that feeling of feeling invaded you know it's almost like when you've got a big spot and you walk into a party and you joke about the spot before anybody else does like if if I if I share if I tell

everyone this about myself then they can't discover it and it would I'd be kind of more secure but god it was it's such a mad thing I have the idea that someone read that diary is just and where is it does it still exist I don't know it's crazy and I agree but I know exactly what you're saying and about kind of if I got there first and put it out into the world then you know no one can take it away from me or turn it around to be something negative about me did you because you didn't start off in writing did you start off in in directing was it and like then you did your documentaries but did you always write when you were little yeah always wrote I didn't do directing I was in tv production though but um before I went in front of the camera but yeah and I always wrote my first story that I wrote was called

Nightmare in Albert Square my sister gave it to me for my 40th framed because it was it's about Ethel um in Albert Square and then a UFO came down and Willie the dog and it was so funny but I just I remember thinking that I had written a masterpiece with this like reimagine reimagining EastEnders and um and I always always wrote and I always loved it. My uncle who raised me says that I was just always taking him stories to mark and read and give me comments on. And then I just went down that route of thinking I wanted to be on stage and thinking that I wanted to be performing. And I went to drama school and I just hated acting. I just didn't like it at all. So I gave that up and then I ended up in front of the camera, which I thought was all I ever wanted to

do. And I really loved, and my twenties were all about TV presenting and doing documentaries. And I'm so grateful for it, but now, and then I feel like I finally settled into writing, which is really what I wanted to do in the first place. And I love it. I'm so, so I'm so happy I'm so happy that I don't have to be on camera all the time anymore I get off of TV work now and I'm like think about it for about five minutes and then just think yeah but then I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning and be on all day and then get home at nine o'clock at night I just can't be bothered I think it's really sweet that it's done that kind of full circle thing where you started off in writing and that's where you end up because I feel like that's always what happens isn't it

you go back to the thing that started you off and you never think that's what you'll do and then it ends up being you know where you're supposed to be all along yeah I know exactly exactly it's awesome and also you know being a mum being a writer is the best job in the world when you're a mum you might I might get really stressed and distracted when I've got a deadline and it can get really intense. But at the end of the day, if one of my kids is sick at school, then I could just be there for them. And Chris is an actor, so sometimes he has to go on location. And as long as I've got my computer, I can just go. And as a family, we can be quite spontaneous, which is awesome.

So I just think if I was still in TV TV all of that would be taken away from me so it's not TV is not a parent-friendly career at all um it just would feel really stressful so I'm very happy to have ended up just writing hiding in a cupboard writing I think that and I think you speak about this a bit in the book but the one thing that the only trouble with that is, is do you find that your work then, because you're working from home and you're like in the house still, you kind of forget that you're allowed to take set like work time because it feels like you're just at home. And then it all sort of blurs. yeah for the last couple of years I've been going to a workspace which um which has been great but obviously since Covid that hasn't happened but um but when yeah when working from home do you kind of forget to you know but I have to say since having the kids I'm much better at it in terms of they go to bed and I made my I made my kids a promise that I would not try and write at the weekends so I can basically the weeks are all mine and I can be distracted

and I can do that. But from, you know, six o'clock on Friday night until 9am on a Monday morning, I'm all theirs. And that's so nice is when you've got one of those jobs, when you're self-employed and if you don't work, you don't get paid. You've got to remember to stop working sometimes. You have to remind yourself to just shut the computer and just chill out I think it's really difficult and I think lots of freelance people would agree and feel the same way that you you don't you don't give yourself the chance to just you know switch off and lockdown's been good for that you know you've had to just I had to switch off from work I had to just exist I think that

was good for me yeah I it's so true putting those parameters up becomes so much harder when you're the only one you're the only boss and you're holding yourself accountable and then it sometimes can be like yeah you wake up open the laptop and just go and the next thing you know I've I've been doing that today I've basically I managed to change at some point in the middle but I've been sat in my bed all day either recording or editing and it's now like 7 30 almost 7 30 and I'm like I've been here since I sit yeah it's so bad yeah you probably do smell but that's okay because you're on your own and it's also why I can't be bothered to be video because I don't have to put makeup on and I'm like

bright red I've got heat rash right now and you just don't have to look at that it's also why I can't be bothered to be video because I don't have to put makeup on and I'm like bright red. I've got heat rash right now and you just don't have to look at that. It's so good. So the last thing that I wanted to ask you is what your three, if you have three top books, because my audience are all big readers and I love reading. And if you had, they don't have to be your all time favorites because I know that's probably an ever changing thing. But if you had three books at the moment what would they be and why? Okay so I just started I haven't finished this book yet but I just started Dolly Alderton's new book Ghost which I already know is going to be a huge success. She is so, she's so clever. She's so smart. She's such a good writer. I don't understand how she's human and how she's so young and how

she writes like she's been writing for a hundred years. I, I just, I just, she blows my mind, that woman. I absolutely adore her. So I'm really enjoying it. And I think I would recommend that. But the other books, I'm going to say Jane Eyre is my favorite book of all time. Jane Eyre is the book that I read before I start any novel because it reminds me to stay committed to my female characters who may not be the most desirable. And I just think it stands the test of time on an independent woman who is of her own mind, but can also fall desperately in love. It just covers everything from independence and strength and romance. And I love it so much. I love that book. I love that book. I love that book. I think it's the best book that was ever written in the history of books. And another book that I love, oh, what other one should I say? Oh, I'm trying to think of something that I don't, I always get the same answers to this question. So I'm trying to think

of something a little bit different, but it always comes back to Jane Eyre and oranges are not the only fruit. So I'm just going to stick to it. Oranges are not the only fruit was, I read it when I was about 16. And it's again, a real reminder that women don't have to be, you know, fluffy and gorgeous and even really that relatable. They just have to be independent and strong and take you on a journey that you believe. And that was the book that I read when I was a teenager where I knew I wanted to write fiction one day because I just was so engaged with the fact that I was reading about someone really extraordinary. I also love stories about complicated relationships with mothers. And that one is really, really complicated. And both women are painted as

complicated, difficult, but determined. And I find that so inspiring because there's a lot of badly written female characters out there and when you get hold of one that is just really tests your mind as a reader as a reader like Jane Eyre and like Jeanette in um in Oranges and Not the Only Fruit that that's to me the most incredible writing so I'm going to pick those three books who I haven't read Oranges and the Only Fruit who wrote that Jeanette Winston I need to read that it's loosely based yeah well it's loosely based on her childhood but then she wrote her memoir and you realize it's basically her childhood and it's about a young uh lesbian girl

who's mother is deeply religious and very strict and very stern and will not allow Jeanette to be who she is and wants to be and so it's they you they, you know, she, she leaves. It's just, I won't ruin it for you. It's just so, I think it's so powerful. It was such a lesson as a teenage girl and stick to who you are, be who you are and don't let anybody, even your mother tell you that you can't be who you are. And yeah, you should read it. It's a really special book. Oh, that's great. I really want to read that because it's it's sometimes nice to read something that isn't new as well you know what like every because I tend to try and read everything that's in the zeitgeist and the new stuff it's nice to read a book that's maybe been around for a bit longer and that you haven't yet discovered I always find that

almost a bit more exciting sometimes and also what you realize it's a bit like classic movies you realize how many modern books how many recent books are inspired by those classics or those you know books that are from like Jane Eyre and Orange is Not the Only Flute continue to be my biggest inspiration and that's why it's important to read them because you'll see you'll see these ideas and characters in modern writers trying to do that same kind of thing, like me, desperately trying to write a book as good as those. Well, I was just about to say without trying to fangirl too much that I would say that as a woman, you definitely lead that idea of just being who you are. And I honestly, doing that, I love you. I think you're so fab.

Thank you. Thank you. You really, really give that off and I think that um you're just such an enjoyable and lovely person I love reading your work and I love seeing what you're doing so thank you so much for chatting to me it's been an absolute treat thanks for having me on yeah gorgeous well I hope you have a fab day it's really dark here now I'm sad if it's sunny with you I imagine it is quite sunny and it's really hot I had to turn the fan off so you couldn't hear it and I'm literally got beads of. I'm sad if it's sunny with you, I imagine. It is quite sunny and it's really hot. I had to turn the fan off so you couldn't hear it. And I'm literally got beads of sweat pouring down my face.

It's really nice. Well, I'm actually sweating it as well because I accidentally put the heating on a timer. So we're both hot for different reasons. Sweating away. But we're both hot and that's all that matters. Yeah, exactly. All right. Thank you so much for having me on.

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