Adulting - #81 Writing, Makeup and Other Miscellaneous Tangents with Jamie Windust

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

Hey Podulters, I hope you're well! In this episode I speak to Jamie Windust about their new book, their favourite makeup lewks and a traumatic experience they had this summer. Their new book 'In Their Shoes' is out now! I hope you enjoy, as always please do rate, review and subscribe.Jamie's BooksKnow My Name, Chanel MillerHappy Fat, Sofie HagenThis Book Will Make You Kinder, Henry James Garret Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. well. I've decided that my intros are a bit too boring and a bit stiff. So I want to have a bit more fun in the introduction. And maybe that is because this episode is very funny, very silly, but also gets quite serious. I speak to Jamie Windust, who is the contributing editor at Gay Times. They're also now an author.

Their debut book, In Their Shoes, has just come out. So we talk about that. But then I did also want to add in a trigger warning, because we do talk about sexual assault and things pertaining to that kind of thing towards the end of the issue. So if you think that that might be something triggering for you, or potentially upsetting, then maybe don't listen, although it's probably about halfway through. So you could maybe listen to the beginning bit. But yeah, I hope that you're all doing very well. And you know, surviving and thriving in this weird but wonderful time. And I really hope that you enjoy this episode as always with the wonderful Jamie Windust. And if you wouldn't mind, please do rate, review and subscribe. It really helps

other people to find the podcast helps me to get amazing guests and hopefully it all comes around in one wonderful circle where we're all learning and loving and lolling together okay bye hello and welcome to Alting today I'm joined by Jamie Windist good evening good morning good afternoon wherever you are in the world yes I'm back thank you very much yes this is your second appearance and I was just saying I keep wanting to say Jemay because the Jemay private school girl but you're actually not tell us who you are because you're not Jemay you are Jemay unfortunately my whole career has not been a Chris Lilley impersonation I am I'm Jamie Windust I am a author editor and model and do you know what I added onto my list of things the other day, cultural commentator, because I think it sounds professional. I love that. I thought you were going to say cultural icon.

I mean, if the shoe fits. I really thought that's where you were going to go with that. I was like, so ready for it. So author's new author is new I mean dependent on when you are listening to this that could be a mild lie um that's true yes author book book a book has been released from my brain but is it it's not ready to well you can buy it but it's not ready. Well, you can buy it, but it's not out yet, is it? Indeed. So here's the plug, Brace for Impact. In Their Shoes, my debut book, is out on the 21st of October. So dependent on when you are listening, you can either pre-order. Pre-order is available now.

Or you can toll down to your local Waterstones and harass them for a copy. Love. So how has your lockdown been? And when did you actually finish writing? Because I feel like, did you start writing last year? Was it when you went to Brighton? Was that when you were writing? Have I just made that up?

Thank you for your intrinsic knowledge of my life. You know what? You're also one of those people that I have a very select uh memory for like for example you went to that charity shop near King's Cross and did something that I now every time I'm in King's Cross I'm like I need to find that charity shop oh my god yeah you do it's really good yeah I just love that we have selective select very select memories of each other but yes yes so specific I wrote this book um from January last year to the end of the year so I had a full 365 days um to produce a book correct um and it was a lot it was a lot I didn't actually start until April because I was like how

do you expect me to write a book I do not understand um because the process is normally very they're very relaxed I found in the literary world very relaxed they're like yeah just start I'm like what do you mean um a mild tip from me to you, listener, is if you are thinking of writing a book, don't start at the start. Because that's obviously the hardest bit. So I just started slap bang in the middle. Why not? Love that. It sounds a bit like you're on a plane.

I wonder if it was actually better without the husband. It sounds like you're flying through the air oh my god should I take them out yeah I think so okay hold on right oh oh that's so much better right I'm on the I'm sat down now I'm on the sofa I'm I'm relaxed oh this is so much better it literally sounded like we were in um you know in Kids, the movie when they go underwater in that little tank thing. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do look like Spy Kids. I love Spy Kids.

It's one of my favourite films. So how did you, why April? Because I feel like that was when we were in the throes of lockdown. How did you find that an inspiring moment to suddenly start picking out bits from your brain? Oh, plot twist um this was April last year oh of course sorry correct a different April it was a different time you know what it was a different time I I really didn't know where to start and the book basically is um it's chronological in a sense but it is very much um chopped up into chopped up into

chapters like most books um but each chapter is about a different segment of my life so for example it was quite easy to just be like i'm just gonna start on the fashion chapter or I'm going to start on the relationships chapter and then figure out what that tone of voice was in that chapter and then just kind of replicate throughout. But I'd say that my writing style is very much how I talk. So it was quite easy. I just kind of wrote in quite a silly, conversational, chatty, crude way. Did you get self-conscious about writing? Because when I, at the beginning of the year, was also thinking about writing a book and also the same as you, where they're just like, just start writing.

And you're like, I don't understand. I don't know how to write a book. I don't know what you want from me. What do you want from me? But I got really self-conscious about the way that I was writing. And then it became really convoluted. And I was like going over every sentence, trying to make it like the most amazing sentence from the New Yorker that you'd ever read. And it just absolutely fried my brain. And then I just gave up. Absolutely.

You know, I've done that now. I've just written a piece. I've written quite an emotional piece for the next issue of Gay Times when I was writing it and I had this also with with the book when I was writing something like meaningful or like if I wanted to make like a very stern like poignant moment I was like come Jamie, get that thesaurus out. I know Dolly Alderton and like make people cry. And sometimes it's a lot harder than you think. But what I found was the best, I think the best moments in the book are where I've just written

and not stopped and then read it back over it. And actually that's very, if I do say so myself, that's very amusing do say so myself that's very amazing I agree though it's like the best writing and stuff that's like uncomplicated and it feels natural and it's actually when you're when you're I think it's when you're aware of writing like when what you just said then is so true when you're writing really just it's flowing it's just coming out of you you're not really thinking about it that reads so well but it's when you're really focused on like I'm gonna make this sound so good that you read it back and it's flowing it's just coming out of you you're not really thinking about it that reads so well but it's when you're really focused on like I'm gonna make this sound so good that you read it back and it's all like disjointed and really clunky and it's just crap yeah because I always try my one thing is I always try and do um when I try and be like fancy I do I try and

throw in like a very funny but meaningful metaphor and then I'll end up sitting there for two hours like, come on, think of a really great metaphor and I'm like, it's not coming, it's not going to happen my favourite line in the book is about the ones where I'm just being silly I'm talking about just nonsense and they're actually the best bits that I that I enjoy

rereading as I sit every evening and reread my own book so how how revealing is it is it how much of it is like is it memoir is it commentary what's the real like crux of the book that you're getting you want to get out there so the kind of general idea of the book is that it's a my story of how I navigated being non-binary and how I am still navigating it so it is kind of a memoir in style. So it's very anecdotal. Each chapter has lots of, has kind of like a main story of an experience that I've faced relating to that topic. So like in relationships, we've got my one and only ever relationship.

And then in fact, like the first time that I ever tried on fancy clothes and my relationship at the very beginning with fashion. And then it gets a bit darker. We've got chapters on allyship and prejudice where I kind of detail things that have gone on and kind of... It's very story- focused, but each chapter has advice, each chapter has commentary at the end about kind of the wider landscape for trans people,

because I was very aware that obviously my story is my story. And my story does not fit everyone. So it has lots of moments in it that I hope are applicable to lots of different people um and I think also one thing that I've found is that it is actually hopefully relatable to people of all genders you don't have to be trans to enjoy the book because a lot of the takeaways in it are about just freedom of self-expression which is not assigned to any one gender. I feel like even in the time since we last spoke on the podcast you've changed from leopard print elephant to Jamie Windus and I feel like in terms of self-expression you seem so you and so much more comfortable in who you are and really being yourself I mean I'm talking about online so I don't know but do you feel like there's been

this was the right time for you to write this book I just feel like you feel you seem you come across as so much more confident and certain in being able to be Jamie do Aww. Do you feel that way? I do. Do you know what? I was in, speaking of Lepre Elephant, she who shall not be named, I was in,

I was in a shoe shop the other day and someone came up to me and said, she was like, oh, I followed you since you were Lepre Elephant and I just put my hand on her back and I was like, I'm so sorry. I was like, you deserve a Lifetime Achievement Award for having to witness that period of time.

I do feel a lot more confident. I do feel a lot more self-assured and I think that in part comes with feeling like my career and my jobs are very much more grounded in structure now you know I I'm an author I've I'm a contributing editor at Gay Times like a lot of things um have set in place as it were so I feel a lot more grounded I feel a lot more confident in my work which then seeps into kind of me as a person um and also aesthetically I've changed quite a lot you might not believe this now dear listeners and only but I am not wearing a lot of makeup oh my god Jadal if you told me you know you saw me last time I was painted I was painted for about 10 people um so that has been really interesting to to acclimatize to a new aesthetic um emphasis on the ass and yeah I'm thoroughly enjoying it you always had your same

um like face look that you would do whereas now you do like loads of different looks and sometimes you go au natural I've actually started wearing more makeup just because YOLO are you like in mourning for me so you're like right Jamie's not wearing a lot so to counteract this I'm I'm gonna wear all of the things that Jamie wants for it's just so addictive like I started putting like I it's happened slowly by slowly but like I started wearing eyeshadow and then I was like oh I can wear eyeliner and then it's like once you know how nice you can look it's really hard to not try and do that every day and I'm like yeah my face looks fine without makeup but then if you take

a picture like it just looks so much better I'm actually going to try and stop doing it because it's like I'm like addicted to wearing foundation when I even when my skin's good and it really annoys me because I'm like just let your skin breathe in the air I'm because I started so I started wearing like no makeup and then I was like oh no we can we can dabble with a little bit of concealer here and there and then in the months since then I've now my now my now natural makeup is um obviously foundation bronzer highlight powder which for me oh voice break there yes I am for me that that's not a lot of makeup but for you know maybe your regular Jo or Joanne it's it's quite it's quite still quite a lot of makeup but

um you know it's all right no I'd say that's like a natural look it's not like a you know wham bam glam mam yeah and it means that when I do do wham bam glam mam it's very I enjoy it a bit more it feels like a bit it feels like more of a treat oh my yes this is my problem I feel like I don't know where to go next because I'm so basic. Like I'm like a brown eyeshadow or a pink eyeshadow and I haven't really gone any further than that. So this is what keeps happening to me when I go on a night out. Not that I'm going on nights out at the minute, but in life, I can't go any further than I've already gone.

I need to like get more experimental. Have you ever heard of blush? As in the blusher or is it a thing yes it's a very new trend um I don't think many people are doing it and it's called wearing lots of blush I think you'd look great with blush it's so funny you said that yesterday for the first time I got something like a creamy blusher there was like a peachy one and it did look really good but the thing is because I go so red anyway when I get embarrassed I was always

quite scared of blusher because I spent my whole life trying to like de-red my face so the idea of like putting on something that would make my face pink when I've spent my whole childhood being mortified by like how red I would go it seems quite alien to me I mean well peach is a good shout however I you know I have to get something off my chest you could call this an adulting exclusive if you cared um I I hate cream blush I've said it oh i've said it i mean why is that it for me it doesn't work because i wear so much when i do my face i wear so much foundation that if i was to put cream blush on it would just i'd have to put the whole pot on for it to come through because obviously i wear too much blush there we go i've said on people like you my love a nice little dabble on the

apples of cream blush chef's kiss well so what happens with me with the powder is for some reason powder just sits on my you can just see the powder. It must be something to do with my skin type. Like it doesn't look good. I always want to do a powder contour because I feel like you can get like a sharper definition. But whenever I do that, it just doesn't work. So all of my makeup is cream, like including my bronzer. Whoa, that's risky.

Yeah. I've got a lot of people that. It is unusual. I'll take that. But it's just yeah I've got a lot I know it is unusual I'll take that but it's just how I roll I know you've never met anyone less basic um so in terms of with the non-binary aspect of life um the media and the world uh it's quite a tricky terrain right now are you feeling like how are you feeling in yourself I mean on top of lockdown and being in the middle of a

pandemic yeah you know I heard about this pandemic from a friend I hadn't actually noticed it was going on um I'm joking I'm. That's very insensitive. Oh my God, wait, my doorbell's just gone. Wait, stay there. BRB. Love it. One second, honey. Hello there.

It is I, Jamie Wendeth. Whoever is listening to this, I would just like to let you know that Anoni has gone to get the doorbell. What do we think? Oh my god, I'm so soz. So I specifically said to leave it outside the door because I didn't want them to ring the doorbell and then they just

rang the doorbell anyway. Rude. I mean again, me and you, peas in a pod because I am also waiting for a delivery. And I put a little note outside saying, on the phone, please leave here. So let's leave. Leave below instructions.

What is your package? Thank you for asking. I have, you know influenced the life influenced the life I'm sure I can predict that whatever just arrived you also did not pay for um it was I'm getting some new clobber and clobber clothes oh nice I like salam yeah I don't actually know what my package is either i just got i don't actually know what it is gifting but you know when you just get a tracking link and you don't know what it is and then they're just like when would you like this to be delivered i just have no idea what it is i think you would benefit from this as well my dear friend oliver off of all of a bonus um making myself laugh this morning um he does great stuff they very kindly gifted me stuff for my new

flat i'm basically living in a show oh my god stop you can hit me up with that email once we finish recording absolutely yeah because you've just moved us but come on here we go we'll make sense where are you living now is that actually is that classified information um you know it may be classified information but like my late mother princess diana i'm not afraid of the akaratsis i currently reside in wimbledon um do come and find me if you um but yeah I'm gonna come and find you go on dare you I'm gonna come and find you but where have you always been south I've always been south but I've been living I finally moved out on my own in July and it honestly is the best thing that's ever happened oh my god living on your own is amazing. I mean, I've just moved in with my boyfriend,

so that's really rude to say, but it feels like living on my own, living with him, because it's kind of like, it's different from living with a flatmate, if that makes sense. Yeah. And is it because you just pretend

he's not there the whole time? Well, he's actually going into the office at the minute, so he's actually not here in the day. And also, we both like our own space, so we're really good at being together, but but not actually so we just like sit together and read like that loses now I'm gonna have to say this because I've been meaning to hear it for a long time how when your boyfriend has the face that he has how can you just sit there and read? I'm sorry. I don't understand. To be fair, I do sometimes get distracted by his cheekbones.

They're really, like, they're amazing. But I'm just offended for my own cheeks because his is so sharp. It's really upsetting. But also, I have known him for, like, over 10 years. So you just, it kind of, like, you get used to the face. His attractiveness is now numb to you no like this morning when he was getting ready for work I was like shit you're so hot but um and I was just I was lying in bed like wow you really do look great um so it's not where

it doesn't wear off but you're just kind of like you do take it for granted I do think that sometimes I'm like shit I'm really taking this for granted he is really he also has a great personality I just want to put that in there before we objectify him too much he's on my list of people that I you know it's not a physical list it's just a mental list um people that if I ever met I would not be able to uh react for example this happened the other day I went to a dinner party for the first time in my life and it was in north London so I'm sure you can imagine the caliber of people no offense a very posh affair okay very posh um and there was someone there's a guy there that I had said to the person who's dinner party it was, I was like, if this guy comes, you need to let me know because I need to prepare myself, not with a razor, but just mentally. Mentally.

And he tapped me on the shoulder and I didn't know he was there, turned around, and I just went, Christ, your eyes. And then immediately felt embarrassed. And then, you know, when you just have word from it, I was like, he was talking to me, and I was like, I'm so sorry, but I'm distracted by your face. And then he kind of laughed, and then just, like, didn't talk to me again. Is it someone famous, or is it someone I would know unfortunately it is not someone famous um he does look like though he does look like

the a grown-up version of the boy from love actually oh love that cute is that your type good evening um I do apologize for my actions on the night of Saturday however um I'm an author now so come on down that's the thing I know that you actually are like a professional journalist and you have some like more highbrow layers to your name than influencer but when you're an author it really changes the caliber of person that you are and you kind of can it's just so much more grown up like I'm I'm hashtag gel it does feel very grown up and also it feels very grown up to have that as well as um contributing editor like the other day I don't mind telling you and I was on the news for to talk about trans stuff and they were like what would you like us to put as your

title and I was like god I can put contributing editor now that feels very official um yeah it's quite nice to have titles isn't it yeah I mean I just say um podcaster I hate saying influencer I just think it's a bit cringe sometimes I just make stuff up so I've like upgraded from podcaster I just say I'm a presenter but then people think I'm on tv and I'm not. I have to be like, oh, just a little old show you might not have heard of. But one day we'll get there. I think I have good faith. Absolutely. Like, cultural commentator is an upgrade from basically just being,

it's basically just saying, I have opinions on the world. Who doesn't? Everyone's a bloody cultural commentator. But, you know, it just sounds quite nice, doesn't everyone's a bloody cultural commentator um but you know it just just sounds quite nice so what are your cultural commentating comments for me today what are you thinking about the world anything in particular that you wanted to comment on um I'd like to comment on the price of oat milk outrageous um serious honest what serious things should we discuss i think at the moment the pandemic is causing us a bit of a ruckus um a little bit i feel like i feel like i don't know if this is relevant for the listeners but does anyone else um and i understand I can't hear your responses um but is anyone else just kind of

a bit like uh so confused by everything at the moment that it's we're kind of like we don't have any idea what's going on so we're just kind of like bumbling around still trying to be careful still mildly aware of what's going on but just like also having absolutely no idea totally and I feel like there's this weird thing where I'm following like what the rules say um as in like I'm socially distanced but I have gone on holiday and I've like gone to restaurants socially distanced and I'm like well I'm doing what it says we're supposed to be doing but then other people who perhaps are more anxious or shielding are then like no that's not what you're supposed to be doing so then you feel really guilty because you're like oh okay and you don't know who to listen to and I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be doing and what's

going on because even if you do what the government says for other people that's maybe not like enough of what you should be doing so I feel a bit confused about what's happening as well I agree I think that's right I think it's about I think it's about just using your brain a little bit sometimes because obviously you know I went out for dinner I love a dinner on my own so when eat out to help out came I actually went to my local this is not sponsored my local, or as I like to call it, Williams. So much in EO to help out on my own that I am now good friends with the manager. Very good friends with the manager. Giorgio, if you're listening, hi.

I'll have the calamari to go thank you i was i was just about to ask what is actually i did go there and eat out to help out but on the extended version matt and i went for lunch what what's your order from bills now brace to impact um i'm one of those people that i sit down they know exactly what i want um so i have with any hot meal I always have a pot of tea um pot of tea we start with the stone baked bread we go in for the tuna which is like you know when they do like raw tuna tuna tartare no yeah we we and then if it's a Wednesday we'll have a sirloin if it's not a Wednesday

we'll have fish pie and then we end on what they describe as lemon meringue pie in a glass which is like a lemon cheesecake slash lemon meringue pie hybrid in a tumbler glass

it's ideal so you have why do you have sirloin on wednesdays is it like mean girls when they're like on wednesdays we wear pink you're like on wednesdays i eat meat on wednesdays i eat cow um that's the pool quote that's the pool that's what we're taking out thank you um on Wednesdays I eat cow because um it's a treat and also it's the last day of the eat out to help out so it's Wednesday today shit oh you're so right I forgot I always kept forgetting but we did really rinse that a bit too much to the point where we weren't actually saving any money because you're like shit you get 50 off it came the bill came and I was expecting it to be like two pound and it came and I was like because I knew I was getting a discount I ordered so much more food than I

normally would order so now it's just the price of a normal meal oh it's always so classic that's what I do it's like um talking about gifting so if I get gifted something that's worth 50 pounds in my head I'm like I've just saved 50 pounds even though I didn't answer it and nor has anyone given me 50 pounds in money so I definitely haven't saved it so then I will think oh well this thing costs 100 pounds I can buy that it's basically like having 50 pounds off so and then Matt's like this is not how maths works but in my mind it makes complete sense that's like so uh get your extension lead out because I'm about to plug we in the book there was um I speak about fashion quite a lot.

And I always have that mentality with fashion. So, like, for example, I bought my first ever pair a couple of weeks ago of designer shoes. Thank you very much, everyone. Don't worry. It was only at Vista Village. So it was the outlet. But have you ever been to Vista Village, by the way? Oh my god, yeah. I used to go there all the time when I was younger.

It was literally like my mum's favourite weekend out. Olive? That's what we do as children. When other people went to like centre parks, our mum would be like, come on girls, we're going to Vista Village. Your mum is a legend, by the way. Can I just say that? Oh, she so is. She is just the best person in the world. If there ever was the personification of a blow-dry,

it's your mum. And she just has that natural bounce to her hair. She doesn't even blow-dry it very much anymore. Are you joking? No, she's just like that. It's just who she is. But, oh yes, so my funny shoes. I bought the shoes.

Versace. Thank I was thank you I was going to ask and I wore them as you would because you've bought something I wore them and then four days later they had a tear in them they're a nice little pair of loafers so I obviously sucked wearing them got on the got on the phone straight to Donatella and I was like babe what's happened to my shoes what fabric are these shoes sorry if they're tearing so it's a little red leather like vinyl leather loafer however you know like on a loafer it has the stitching around the top yeah it's like around the around the rim um like a pasty and that's where the tears were so I obviously was like donatella what's going on here you need to fire someone and they emailed me back and were like hello jamie we can offer you a store credit

um or a replacement and obviously in my head relating back to our previous conversation about money in my head I was like god that's free money even though it's literally not because I've just spent the money on the suits in the first place but because they're like you now have the same amount to spend again in my head it's a free purchase did you spend more on the second pair did you buy the same ones um so this will be a teaser suspense I have booked in to go this weekend to deliberate on what I shall do because I'm tempted to get the same pair but you know what we're like very fickle I'm already bored of them slightly so I might just get a new pair because what I would do if someone gave me and this is why I'm so bad with money I'm

getting better but this is kind of thing I do so someone would give me a voucher in which case I would then spend the price of the voucher on top of the voucher because I as you said free money so I'll be like well I should therefore double the cost of the next shoe that I buy oh yeah because I've been given yeah exactly that's how I would look at it sorry to your bank account well you know I've got to spend that book money somewhere and if it's on shoes are you ready for a very beautiful segue go on I'm I'm I'm so Jemay if I were to be in your Versace shoes walk me through what that might be like oh wait you don't need to because you've written a book called in their shoes it wasn't as neat as I was hoping I was it's quite good that was Walk me through what that might be like. Oh, wait, you don't need to because you've written a book called In Their Shoes.

It wasn't as neat as I was hoping. It was quite good. That was the best one I've done. Best one I've done. It would, what would a day in my shoes be? At the moment, it's quite busy. I'll tell you that for nothing. It's hectic.

It's managing a pandemic around trying to be as you described a cultural icon but at the moment I've not to take a sour note on our beautiful conversation but this summer has been

a tricky one it's been a difficult old slog for many reasons. And I won't go into them because otherwise we may have to add trigger warnings to the podcast and that's never fun. But it's been a difficult one. And I think what's interesting is if you were in my shoes in like August, it would have been hard. And it was a very kind of difficult time mentally and kind of just the world pandemic wise was really stressful. I had lots of kind of personal stuff that was going on that I was like,

Oh, um, and now I think it's a lot easier. I feel, you know, I've come out the other side of being within the kind of criminal system. Don't worry, dear listener, I was not arrested for public indecency again um but it's now I feel almost like shaped by the experience however not in a way that means that I'm uh giving it power but I feel like I have been able to shape how I come out to the other side do you do you want to talk about it or you don't want to talk about it I can do yeah because I am

aware that it may be um slightly non-contextual for this um am I allowed to use all of the words you can use every single word that you want to use so this summer I shared something online on Instagram that had happened to me um and it wasn't it wasn't that nice an experience and I think it was a very um a very jarring experience so I was raped during lockdown which is not something that I expected to happen and also you know no one ever really expects things like that to happen but it was a a very difficult situation to be in purely for lots of reasons obviously but like I think for me it was kind of the aftermath of that and being within the criminal justice system and being within uh within a system that I just felt didn't fit me

in any way um and I think when things like this happen we obviously um we have a lot of preconceptions of what the system is like from tv from film um and a lot of preconceptions of what the system is like from TV, from film. And a lot of that is not actually true. It's actually a lot more intense and it's a lot more difficult. I think the only real depiction of it that I've seen that actually feels relevant or realistic is in um and I've now forgotten the program but it's that lovely new one that Michaela Cole did I May Destroy You I May Destroy Yeah yeah um and I watched that when it came out and that that was kind of a very very very realistic portrayal of what happens. And I think for me, it was just a lot to process.

I'd just moved out on my own as well. So it was really kind of a whole kerfuffle, to be quite frank. And now, kind of four months on on I'm definitely through the worst of it um however I think that's why I love writing so much is because you know I've noticed that during that time I wasn't ever really listened to on a human level. I was only ever listened to to share evidence. I was listened to to provide resources rather than actually just like listened to on a human level. So to be able to write about it

and to be able to put that out there, which I'm going to publish in in November was and has been really cathartic because a lot of people for trans folks and marginalized bodies say that we know we shouldn't share our trauma constantly because it's trauma porn or because it's um what's expected of marginalized bodies but I think that obviously has a place and you should never be expected to but if you decide to do something like that and share your story and you are in control of sharing that story I think that is one of the most powerful things you can do so for example for like I say for the next uh print issue of Gay Times I have written um what would

have been my victim impact statement that I would have read out in court um so I have written that to be published and it was completely my idea completely my kind of motivation I worked through to get that idea from working with my therapist as part of my closure and yeah it's felt really nice actually I was really worried about doing it but it's it's felt like I'm able to put the full stop on it rather than the police deciding when things end and when things are done so for me doing this is really for me it's me being selfish it's me being able to control my narrative um so yeah that's that's the context if anyone was wondering I don't think it's I don't think it's selfish I think that as you said, it's really important that when we feel that we have the power and we want to share something,

that we are able to. I don't think that's selfish because there will always be someone who needs that story and who needs to read it. And there might be people who don't, but that's why we have trigger warnings and that's why we have the ability to, you know, we've got to take ownership over what we need to absorb and digest and read. I don't think it's selfish and I think I'm sure that it will be very impactful for lots of people who've been through those situations. So I wouldn't look at it like that. So what was the final outcome of the case so the I reported the case um the night the night of in June um and then in October um they basically were like there is not enough evidence to to go to trial and basically what in these cases it's a very difficult or as they describe it it's apparently a very difficult crime to what's the word persecute yeah persec, because there doesn't just need to be evidence

of it happening, but there needs to be tangible evidence that beyond no reasonable doubt, the person that is being accused understood that you had not consented, but still continued and I remember I went to them in October um for a meeting for them to basically sit down with me and explain why they've decided to not take it any further and they were discussing the kind of difference between what socially we see as the definition of consent which is obviously um a definition that we that most of us understand and is kind of known, whereas the definition of consent in the criminal justice system is very, very different.

And that was quite interesting to me because you'd think that something like that would just have a definition and then you can carry it through and it would remain the same. But yeah, so the case has been, the case was dropped. And I was basically told I can either take it to court myself through like civil court, or I can lay it to rest there so I decided to just not move forward with them. So what is the definition of consent in the criminal justice system then? So they kind of

explained it as the it's similar to it's obviously related and similar to the kind of social definition but the the difference in the criminal justice system is that consent has to be there has to be proof that there is no consent so there has to be a level of it's very evidential so there has to be evidence of the lack of consent and I remember kind of joking to them i was like well what do you want me to do like do a voice note like how was i how was i supposed to do i mean it's a very unless you're making unless it's like recorded it's or videoed in any way i don't i it seems like a complete error to be like how can you take that as evidence in what way would I muster that also because it's one word against the other and because even if you'd given consent in a voice note at the beginning of the act you could change your mind halfway through so that would be null and void anyway and then if someone has, as you say, like violated you in a

way that they've made that decision to do so, and they're saying you gave consent, like how are you going to have evidence for that? It does seem so problematic. Do you think it's harder? Did you find it harder as a non-binary person than you think it might be for someone who is cis or cis presenting? Like what, did you think that the process felt very different to you um you said earlier that you felt like you didn't fit the system and I wondered if that was down to gender identity or this is fun but by the way I've not I've not said this yet so this is a this is fun I'm a bit I'm a bit scared but I think it's fine. Are you feeling okay? Oh, no, yeah, I feel fine talking about it. I'm just kind of...

It just feels quite nice. Oh, that's good. Yeah, so kind of the different... The feeling of me in the system as a non-cis person was very... Kind of from the very beginning, it was very difficult. So as I reported the crime, officers arrived to me. And I explained what had happened. And because of the nature of it being a same sex situation, the two police officers basically were telling me that they didn't understand

um they didn't have it they were like we don't have experience um with this type of thing we don't really understand what you mean um which was really odd so I was like what you meant about the about the actual um violation or what you meant about your own gender um so they didn't understand some of the language that I was using around uh same-sex sex so like right two people um of the same sex having sex they just didn't understand the language that I was using for example like uh top and bottom or even like anal they were like I don't understand I was like right what it didn't understand like the I think that with queerness there's often um we have more access to hookup culture um and when I tried to explain that it was just a hook up

again they didn't understand that so what they had to do was they called out which at the time was not possible but now thinking back it is quite funny they had to call out the special LGBT police officer to come and effectively act as the translator to what was going on. So he arrived

and spoke through it with me and kind of literally I would say it to him and then he would say it to the other officers which I was just very baffled by. I did, in that instance, with the LGBT officer,

explain to him that I was non-binary. And I explained, and he was like, oh, that's fine. And then he turned to his colleagues and was like, oh, by the way, guys, he's non-binary. And I was like oh um by the way guys he's non-binary and I was like um and also he should have said they're non-binary right yeah absolutely so like there was a complete a complete disregard yeah and then moving moving forward um kind of when I was working with the detectives and looking and kind of speaking about that bring it up it was kind of reacted to with very defensive language being like we would never do that we don't do that

we understand but it's not intentional all of these types of things and then kind of in my final meeting when I spoke with them about the decision they still were using the wrong pronouns and I think for me in that moment I was like right I'm ready to leave this system now I don't need to be in it it's not going to benefit me I'm actually glad it's not gone any further because I think for me being in the system was equally as bad as the incident itself. I was about to say, it's just as traumatising to be in a space where you're supposedly looking for help. And then the people that also are kind of committed to misunderstanding you and who you are. That is, that's a really horrible space to be.

And did you feel like you felt before this incident did you have a bit more faith in how it would have played out do you think um I you know I always I think the thing with this crime is I always knew that those types of crimes are never treated in a way that is proportionate to other crimes. The conviction rate is very, very low. And I understand, just from kind of knowledge of, as a cultural commentator, that these situations are not dealt with to the end. So... But did you expect, what I meant by that more was like were you expecting to feel more safe um going through the process than evidently you did I think yeah I think one

would one always feels like ringing any form of emergency service your kind of main hope and aspiration there and aim is to be like these people are going to look after me these people are going to make me feel safe but you know history and listening to lots of words essentially you know this year has been highlighted that for black folks and people of colour that, you know, these institutions are not made for marginalised bodies and they do not, there is never a guarantee that they're actually going to make you feel safe. And I think, unfortunately, that's what happened here. And that's what happens for so many marginalized people. So it was frustrating. I had lots of other kind of incidents with them over the past few months where it really made me think about the discussions around defunding the police.

I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. Just all of it sounds so traumatizing on top of each other and i completely agree with i was reading so much into the idea of like the abolition of the police and defunding them and um it really your brain really starts to like imagine a world with services that are applicable to the people that need them rather than this police force which actually like only really have one skill they're not trained to be doing it and actually it's more about kind of changing the way that we have this money put into people to look after us you'd have a specific mental health paramedics type person that would come when you

rang whatever number and then you might have someone else who's good at dealing with domestic situations and it's not about not having those people there at the end of the phone it's about having the right people there and I think that's where people get confused they suddenly imagine like anarchy without police and actually it's total opposite it's still very much like there's a social justice system but it's in a different means of a different it's a different set of players rather than the wrong ones who don't know what they're doing for want of a better phrase it was just it's it was a very blanket situation and i think it's we're seeing it more and more and especially with lots of trans charities

as well that are losing funding or that um so many things are happening at the minute where there's being so many cuts to these really important lifelines for people and I guess the hope is that with books like yours and voices who are able to hopefully puncture through some of the mainstream conversations that we see playing out in proper publications and also just on right-wing Twitter that hopefully with like your voice being loud enough it might give people access to why these things are so important I think that so many times we just you're just not given the right space to talk about these issues and I don't know what news channel you were on recently but I always come back to like Piers Morgan's

Good Morning Britain and you just see the way that marginalized voices are kind of propped up as being I don't even know what the right word is but they always have an agitator to play against this person who has is not the default voice and it's just not good enough and it's not good enough to help people understand why the status quo right now isn't helping people yeah no absolutely and i think it's you know it that kind of narrative a lot of people claim like the pierce morgan narrative and the agitator kind of dynamic they claim that it's very harmless they claim it's in the essence of free speech. However, you know, I'm a very privileged person

in the trans community, and this is how I was treated as a result of conversations that happen in right-wing news and on mainstream media. These conversations mean that the conversation is instantly and continually sidetracked and re-derailed in a way to focus on very minor issues whereas actually you know there are situations like that I had that need more reform but they are never spoken about because you know Piers Morgan wants to talk for an hour about foolishness to do with transness rather than the actual issues and it screams to me that actually a lot worse is going on for less privileged trans folks in

these systems and it's frustrating. I think it's the same that we see everywhere with this idea of like as you say he'll get caught up in the idea of like women being spelt with an x for an hour rather than talking about the fact that our national health service can't cater to certain people or that we don't have adequate mental health training as you said and we see this the whole time where we have these kind of like culture wars or these like really small peer-to-peer arguments being lauded as the issue when actually the issue is much more systemic and legislative than any of these kind of like faux battles people have on twitter because that's not really what anyone like that stuff doesn't really it does matter in some ways but if we fix the the the core of the issues um then hopefully

those things on the top layer wouldn't happen yeah 100 because i think what then happens is like in my job as well as a as a writer and as a journalist a lot of the time i'm asked to discuss topics or help consult on projects that are focused on these very minimal culture war moments such as the woman with an ex or um even kind of very very and i know it's an issue that people need safety for but like changing rooms and bathrooms like these topics get so ingrained in conversation that actually like like we've said the main crux of what actually we need help with is lost and it also prevents people from actually doing the work and being being active allies because they see these conversations around

um these minimal issues and then it kind of plays into the idea that trans people are just causing drama for drama's sake when actually it's never trans people that bring these issues to the forefront it's cis people and then it's painted as trans folks constantly arguing for tiny little issues when actually we never bring these issues up we just are then asked to comment on them and then it creates this dynamic of that we're just moaning all the time and it's like well oh no how how do you feel about because i think we're in this moment of a lot of like virtue signaling and woke signaling where um print public will not even just publications will as you say like ask you for your comment on

something and then position themselves as progressive or part of the conversation and actually then again they're just feeding into the same thing like do you think that that's moving forward is that changing and like because obviously as we know we need to have people and you being contributing editor that's the kind of important stuff like people sat at the table rather than just um being doing a lip service on the on the pages which serves more to the people at the top than it does to the people that it's supposed to be catering for have you felt that that we're in a position where things are changing or is it still a lot of kind of lip service I think there is definite changes for example like my role with Go Time is a great opportunity for me to control a narrative

in a way that allows me to share work that is joyful and also allows me to include voices from the non-binary community that aren't always shown which I think is great and it's like it's what I call like by for journalism it's by the community for the community and I think when you have like little think pieces that crop up written by non-trans, written by non-trans journalists and they ask you for comment, sometimes it's helpful because there is an element to conversations like that that are like these words are going to go to an audience that don't necessarily engage with these conversations all the time so therefore if they can read a piece that is well written and has trans inclusion in it then that's not always a bad thing however it does beg the question should we have to be reading these little think pieces about bathrooms about women x about you know very very small issues you know, very, very small issues. You know, I'd rather see journalists ask me for comment on reform and actual positive changes rather than should I be allowed to try a dress on

in urban outfits. No, I completely agree. And I think that's where even I am starting to realize that sometimes even some of the conversations I have end up being quite surface level because whilst it is important I feel like our generation perhaps more than ever are so um we're really pernickety and we want to do things right and so we are concerned about some of the small stuff because we would like trying to do everything from the ground up. Like we want to get things right.

But then at the same time, it's like when it's coming down to what's actually fundamentally going to have the biggest change, it has to come from systems and legislation. I've sometimes realized that I don't tackle enough of that gritty, bigger stuff because you can go around for hours and hours just talking about identity and identity politics and sometimes that again feeds into the idea that you know there's not a bigger conversation to be had beyond that when there always kind of is Yeah absolutely

I think a lot of people are beginning to acknowledge that and realise that there's always a wider conversation. I'm hopeful for the future of journalism. So in your book, how much of it would you say is instructive or educational? Is it a really witty approach at just going like, this is who I am and this is what I'm like as opposed to being as activist as perhaps some of your other work I think yeah I think with I've never I've never

really aligned with that with the activist phrase and I think I speak about it in the book about how often when marginalized people just speak about their experiences they're called an activist whereas actually in the book I try and debunk that slightly and also showcase um my stories through through kind of wit and humor and try and avoid and almost take the piss out of like live, laugh, love and just do it. And all of the mantras, because often when you read books that are supposed to give you advice,

it's very much like you can do it. And it's like, yeah, I know I can, but like, it's not my fault if the world around me is letting me. So each chapter has kind of a list, a list in each chapter of

like 10 things I would say to a non-binary person about and then it's each chapter is about the theme so like 10 things I'd say to someone wanting to explore fashion or 10 things I'd say to someone about how to deal with their mental health so there there is practical advice in there but I think, unfortunately, the kind of initial reviews that came in have said that it does feel very practical and realistic. It's not super like rainbows

and glitter everywhere. It's very gritty and honest but in a way that's hopefully relatable to to people yeah and I think it's important to be able to you know as you were saying earlier like to be able to tell your story and not sugarcoat things and not try to make people feel comfortable or you know it's got to be truthful I think and I think that it will be funny knowing you I imagine that it's going to be absolutely hilarious because you just you're a funny honey what can I say well you've listened to this and you've let out a slight exhalation through the nose then like that then then you know also I know this isn't

something that should someone said this to me the other day like Jamie you should not say that to try and sell your book but it is only 200 pages so you know you could whip through it in like a week that's a couple of cheap journeys I think I think that's a massive thing for people because I love reading anyway but lots of people that don't read always ask me to get really intimidated do people do just prefer a short book because also I think our concentration span at the minute with everything that's going on it's actually really hard to stick to something that's too thick so something that's like manageable 200 pages is a really good amount is is actually much more alluring than a massive, chunky, fat book. Anna's got a picture of time if you need to think about it,

but at the end of every episode this season, I'm asking people what their three favorite books are, but obviously they don't have to be your all-time favorites. They could be like your favorites right now or like childhood book, anything. Do you have a top three books for me? Okay. So I'm looking at my bookshelf as we speak. And I would say a book that I read last year that I read I then kind of went back to currently because it was the content was relatable

is Know My Name by Chanel Miller which is a book from the sexual assault victim of brock turner um which is an amazing read i mean it's all about her process through the system um you know it was a very high profile case so it talks about her situation. So I found that really lovely. If it can be called lovely. I have just started reading Sophie Hagen's wonderful book, Happy Fat, which I'm thoroughly enjoying. Loved that.

That's currently up there as a number one um and then because I've not read for a while but I have started reading recently um finally I would say I got sent my lovely friend Henry James Garrett's book called this book called kinder um and Henry is an amazing illustrator and writer and he actually on a personal note kind of you know I'm sure you know what this is like we have people online that we kind of uh are mildly friends with but we don't have that much of a um solid friendship but over over summer and when I was kind of dealing with my stuff he reached out and this and it's been like a real um rock for me essentially and a real a real lovely person so his book is called this book will make you kinder and it's all about um it's called an empathy handbook so it takes a look at social definitions of like morality

how we define what's moral and immoral and how that can influence um why we are kind and why we help other people and it's full of all of his gorgeous illustrations. And I love him. So those are my three. Also, fourth is In Their Shoes by Jamie Winder. I love that. I'm really excited about that third one. I'm going to look that up because I haven't had that.

But that's all so far. I can't believe how quick off the mark you are. I'm very impressed. Thank you. You didn't have any pre-warning. So, yes, thank you so much for joining me. I've loved this chat. Did it get a bit sad? Are you okay?

It did get a bit sad, and I've not shared that information publicly. However, I wouldn't have said it if I didn't want it to be said. So I feel happy. Well, thank you for sharing with me that's okay my love it was nice to laugh about it if people don't yet follow you on social media um where can they find you apart from Wimbledon apart from Wimbledon um first of all I would say what are you doing silly do you not look up the person on Instagram before you start listening I I always do. But on Instagram, you can find me at jamie underscore win dust, like winning and like dust, but one word. And that's the same on Twitter.

And my book In Their Shoes is available to pre-order on Amazon, Waterstones and your local independent bookshop where they have signed copies. If you want to scribble for me. Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me and chatting and lolling and sharing. Thank you, my love. I love you. Love you. Thank you, everyone, for listening.

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