Adulting - #86 Gender Binaries, Conflict Resolution and Flirting with Travis Alabanza

Episode Date: December 6, 2020

Hey Podulters, I hope you're well. In this week's episode I ask Travis Alabanza what three things they wish they were taught in school. Travis is a performance artist, theatre maker, poet and writer. Their latest show overflow is now on at the bush theatre. We discuss gender binaries, conflict resolution and flirting. I adored speaking to Travis and I hope you enjoy! As always please do rate, review and subscribe xxx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. well. In this week's episode, I speak to Travis Alabanza, and I ask them what three things they wish they were taught in school. Travis is a performance artist, theatre maker, poet and writer and their latest show Overflow is currently on or is about to be on at the Bush

Theatre. We discuss gender binaries, conflict resolution and flirting. Very important topic. I adore speaking to Travis and I really hope that you enjoy listening. As always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Enjoy. Bye. Hello and welcome to Adulting. Today I'm joined by Travis Alabanza. Hi. After so many technical difficulties, we're here. It was so funny. I was so, we had a bit of a technical hitch where I could hear Travis, but Travis couldn't hear me. And we didn't know what was going on.

And we initially tried this about four hours ago, whatever time it was. And then we just clicked. Travis had the page muted. So that's adult thing completely not done to success. I'm hanging up my boots now. Clearly, I didn't pay attention to IT lessons in school. Oh, but it was so funny.

I even put it on my Instagram story. I was like, my guests, they can't hear me. Anyone know where this might be? And everyone was like telling me stuff. And I was like, no, it's definitely not that. But it was simple. And we made it in the end. So apart from being a technophobe like me um how are

you yeah I'm all right I'm like enjoying the view from my desk today I feel like that's the only ways you can like say how you are it's like what's the view flag from where you're working in your house um but I'm doing all right it's been like, you know, a wildly boring six months, but I feel safe and all of that. So I'm doing all good. How are you? Oh, that's good. I'm good. I found this second lockdown just a bit more draining than the first one. And I don't know why, because it doesn't feel as locked down as last time. But we're free soon so soon so so soon I'm like already thinking about the gym and I wasn't even a gym person before this but now I'm like I just I feel like that's who I've developed as over lockdown so I'm gonna I've got in my head that like oh okay when I when it opens I'm gonna go for a run on a treadmill because I couldn't before and I was like that isn't what I was before this anyway no but it's so true I'm absolutely buzzing I always like the gym but I'm like obsessed with

it ever since it's been taken away from me I'm like I've already booked my gym session for tomorrow. Oh my god I love it. I'm so prepared so before we get too into the chat can you give us an introduction to Travis and your work and who you are? Yeah sure I'm Travis Alabanza I'm an IT technician no I am an artist a writer I make theatre so at the moment I'm going to be going leaving my home in Bristol to go to London tomorrow because my show is the my show Overflow is reopening Bush Theatre so yeah I make plays and I write stuff and I perform I guess I talk shit online depends on where you see me really. Can you tell us a bit more about Overflow? Yeah sure so basically I knew that I wanted to make a show that was talking specifically to the issue that I was seeing of how much in the papers they're talking about trans people and us in public space and particularly in women's spaces.

And I wanted to make a show that was kind of our chance to have our newspaper column that we don't have back but on a stage and so overflow follows um a trans woman called rosie as she's in a woman's bathroom as it floods and she's recounting her life um in women's bathrooms through this story so she talks about the good the bad and it's kind of like um trying to really hit the nail on the head about what's wrong with this discussion about trans people in public space and like to kind of give us a bit of that mic back wow i love that and yeah this is even something that as someone that is is sitting in a very privileged space i get this wrong sometimes as well because the mainstream media so often wants to focus on these really like sideline issues that aren't like the fundamental problems that are like more to do with kind of government and legislation and um you're right that the actual like focal points are just so often completely

squashed on purpose so that no one is actually discussing what truly is important for people who are marginalized and oppressed by our systems exactly and i feel like it's such a it's an issue that so many people are scared to talk about or feel like they might get it wrong or stuff like that and I feel like that's when art is the best place to come in because it allows the discussion to happen on a stage and like through drama and through like comedy and all these things and and so I've always really tried to like make sure that my work is an accessible way into like a contentious subject really. Also this has just turned out this wasn't planned but into the perfect segue

because as we know this season I'm asking people three things we wish we were taught you wish you were taught in school and your first one is about gender and you said to me that I wish the lack of binary around gender was taught in school, that we were taught our options around gender could be ours and ours to choose, which I think is a really powerful one to open up with. And I wish that everyone was taught that as well. When did you start to recognize that the, I mean, I'm sure that, actually I don't want to put words in your mouth, I was going to say I'm sure that you always felt like the binary didn't make sense but when was it you started to find language around it and where did you learn that from if it wasn't in school yeah I'd say that I was like completely

the opposite I think I was so binary in terms of gender from like a really young age to like 17 18 because like I was always gender non-conforming. Like I was the cliche kind of kid, you know, loads of photos of me as a kid and like really over like my mum's dress and red heels and all of that like cliche was definitely me. But I thought that that meant that my only option was that I must be a woman. And that really stressed me out. You know, like all of my teenhood was spent kind of wondering in my room, like when am I gonna not look you know I started going through puberty and I was like this doesn't feel like what I signed up for um what's going on here and then I was lucky like and you know because I was only presented the options of like

well you you were born a boy and so now you you're going to have to go into manhood. And then the only options of trans people I saw were, you know, Jerry Springer shows where they'd bring us on as kind of freak shows, you know, and I was kind of like, oh, okay, well, I'm not this. So that must be it then. And then I was really lucky. I went to, God, this is so like, I went to California, but I did. I went to Californiaifornia but i did i went to california when i was 17 for this um youth youth program called black girl dangerous um someone that was an older queer person could see that i was maybe trying to figure out some stuff and and said oh i think you should go to this like summer camp basically and i went and the first thing that they did at the summer camp

was sit around and did their names and pronouns. And I went, I'm really sorry, what the fuck's going on? I don't know what this is. I had no idea. And then someone was like, oh, my pronouns are them, they. And my initial response at first was like, that doesn't make sense. I don't know what that is. And this person, like, bless them, they were really patient and understanding with me, talked them through. And I kind of realised, oh, wait, like like that's something that you can choose to do like that's an option they were like yeah I've kind of just opted out of feeling the need to have gender and like as part of my life and I was like oh I feel so much more relaxed when I think about it and so it was a real like 17 18 I started realizing there were

people that had already decided that they could basically make their own choice for themselves. And I was like, sign me up. That's amazing. I find it interesting that because I don't think I had any awareness of transness at school and I wouldn't have even have known that like, if I wanted to present as a boy that I could have done that when I was little where did that feeling of did you feel safety in presenting yourself as feminine when you were little um because it sounds like you like you were definitely still presenting but what I'm trying

to say is it's interesting that I that you obviously didn't know about being non-binary or like gender non-conforming in its entirety but you kind of were questioning about transness so is that something you were kind of aware of apart from on the Springer show like you mentioned? Well yeah I guess that when I was younger like I can't really remember if I can see photos I must have just gravitated towards women's clothing and And like, I was really lucky to have a mom that just was like, okay, here we go. And like gave me the clothes that I wanted and,

you know, let me play around and make shows in her bedroom. And I had this song called all we need is a shoe that gets brought up at every single family Christmas because like, I was like singing about heels or something. So I think, you know, there was no subtlety in anything I was doing.

I've never been good at being subtle. So I think my mum was like, right, well, I'm either going to resist this or I'm just going to encourage and let them choose what they want. And then I think then I got to secondary school. And obviously, that's when you realise, and this is when I was thinking about the question, I was like, that's when it all changed because suddenly my choices were dangerous. You know, like I went to a working class state comprehensive school, you know, I'm from a council estate. You can't start walking around. It suddenly doesn't become cute, right? Like suddenly the things that you're being like, oh my God, this is so adorable. This little boy is in a dress is suddenly being called, you know, all these names and put in

such, you know, two grown situations for them to be in and so then it became a private practice right like before I was doing it openly and then I was like oh okay how am I going to get through school well not like this so I started doing it all in private you know trying on what I wanted to wear in private then taking it off and going to school then coming back and you know we just got no we still had the modem internet you know where you like poke it in and you copy on at the same time

so when it was my turn on the computer I would just google I think I googled like I don't know dressing as a woman and it comes up with all these Jerry Springer videos and all of that stuff and that was really my education I guess and so that's

when I thought of the question I was like damn it would have been such a easier ride if our education wasn't in private in secret in shame to Jerry Springer you know that Jerry Springer wasn't getting the kudos for our gender like representation now that we're talking about it I don't even know how much we even learned about gender at all really we learn about the kind of like differences between or the perceived and the created differences between girls and boys and men and women yeah but I don't even know how much of the term like gender was even something that I was like I can't really it's weird because it's hard to remember what you didn't know once you know it do you know what I mean but I don't remember any conversation yeah no I don't think we were I definitely wasn't and I think this is

what I mean it would change not just trans people's lives but I think relationships between cis men and cis women would be so different if men were taught about the way in which their gender can play out and be about if they were taught that they could think about their masculinity rather than just like reactively enact it in ways that are violent you know like um I think that if we were all taught that like our gender was ours because I think that's what happens like I think what I realized in secondary school is like my gender suddenly didn't become mine like suddenly it was all a performance you know you go into the canteen and I feel like everyone's performing you've got like the sport boys that are like gonna pick on someone because they want to make sure that everyone knows that they're

really men and then you've got the girls that are maybe feeling the pressure to live up to like standards that those boys then set so then they're making sure to have a certain performance of like femininity and gender like I feel like we're all going into school and we suddenly have to like really perform something and I feel like if we were taught about that performance it would change it you know oh definitely and I remember watching your TED talk maybe it was a while ago now when I watched but you said something like the thing is with gender is we've all been given something that we didn't consent to is that how you framed it

something like that probably I'm like yes maybe yeah it's this unconsensual act I feel yeah it was just such a good way of putting it because and I think you're right like even I it was such a big facet of my relationship with myself when I was at school and even played into like my disordered eating because everything was about attaining this like heightened level of femininity because I'm like a small blonde girl and that became my identity that was what the lens that everyone saw me through and even now I'm like a small blonde girl and that became my identity that was what the lens that everyone saw me through and even now I'm super feminine still but it was just weird that it was like as you said I acted up to that perception of me when actually like there would

have been so many other things I could have lent into if I hadn't then become obsessed with being this like little pretty girl that people thought that I was right right exactly and I feel that like you know so we we don't consent to what we are assigned at birth and then for some of us that's okay and for some of us not but even if that is kind of okay with us in terms of a I feel cisgender or trans way then it's all these other things that you talk about like everyone is still trying to live up to not failing. Right. And,

and I think that we see throughout the world that if you fail at whatever gender you're being perceived to be, then you're punished or you feel like you're going to be punished. So that might be that you're a cis white woman that feels like they are failing to the beauty standards given to them. Or that might mean that you're a gender nonconforming person that's failing at either genders. But I think that we see from a really young age that,

okay, like if I just stick to the rules and don't fail at this performance, then I'll be okay and be safe. And I think that if we learn more about gender, we'd learn one, that like everyone's trying to get to something that maybe isn't there. And that maybe then we'd also learn that there's so much else that we can find joy in that isn't pursuing some rigid performance you

know yeah completely it's just the more you kind of like break down what like gendered ideas are the more it just really just starts to like kind of fall apart in terms of all of the points of gender have value and we all tend to have certain things that we find important but the way that they're all kind of like pulled together to be like this is a man and this is a woman it all feels so redundant and it's weird that for so long it's been allowed to be kind of upheld as though this is the law and this is the truth when there's like it's it's all so kind of fallible like the strings that hold it together so fallible completely falls through the thing doesn't hold up and then god forbid maybe we'd have to find out what we actually enjoy when we're younger do you know what I mean like I think that

I'll never forget that like when I was uh when I was like 15 I think I started like being like fuck it I'm just gonna do what I want to do. And I stopped being like, so obsessed with whether or not I was working as a man. I started just painting my nails. I started dyeing my hair. I started cropping my tops. I started doing all these things at school. And, you know, obviously it would attract a certain attention and not all of it positive. But I remember that like, when I was walking down the street once, someone that knew who I was from one of the other neighboring schools was in the shop with me. And he just whispered to me, he was like, where did you get your nail varnish from? And then I responded quite loudly with the answer. And then he told me to fuck off and called me a faggot and walked away.

And I thought it was so interesting because in private, he was so inquisitive about this thing that clearly he wanted. But then when his desire was in public, suddenly there was all this shame. And if we were taught about gender and all these things, this shame wouldn't go along with our exploration, you know? Yeah. And we're seeing like just recently recently like with these conversations around harry styles creating all these really ridiculous conversations about like what masculinity is and yet this has been happening forever with people like bowie and like there's always been so many especially in like music industries so many people that are gender non-conforming and then every time like there seems to be a wave of people being really shocked by it and it's like he's just wearing a dress I don't understand why this is such a big deal literally

literally you know we've been here we've been doing it as long as there's been man or woman there's been people being like neither buy bounce or more complicated you know I do think also like with fashion I always think this like as someone who is a cisgendered woman like the access for me when it comes to clothes is huge and I actually always talk about this with my boyfriend who's also he's a cis man and he's always like it's really unfair like you can wear a play suit shorts a skirt a dress you could wear dungaree like anything um and but when it comes to like people who aren't cis women like fashion is so restrictive and like even from like a non point of like gender non-conformity or from anything just from a point of creative outlet like it's really stifling and just I think that's kind of like a weird one of those weird things yeah so true I'm like sometimes I joke

about with my other trans friends I'm like maybe I'm just trans because the male section was so boring like I'm just always like oh and then I'm like maybe these men are so angry because their clothes aisle is just absolutely depressing um but I think it's like also so, it just shows how made up it all is because you go back to like 18th century and men dressed so much more flamboyantly or you go back to like when the high heel was created and it wasn't created originally with women in mind.

There was men wearing heels too. You look at the color pink and that has transformed and turned into a highly gendered feminine color only in the last 100 or so years so all of this has been up for play and like we're currently in this moment and I use that to like remind myself that these things are always changing and that we've ascribed the rules to them so therefore we don't need to hold them as tight you know yeah I remember finding out

when I first learned about I did something about it at union it was saying like pre-victorian times like you just said like pink was actually a really masculine color and then I think was it queen victoria or someone wore a pink dress then everyone was like oh no that's feminine color and then like before I think it was also queen victoria, when she went into mourning, was like, no one's allowed to wear makeup apart from sex workers and thespians or something like that. And prior to that, men and women had both worn makeup. And then after that happened, for some reason, it was only women that went back to wearing it. So you're right. and as if it's been true forever is just ideology that changes throughout the centuries which is also why it is so frustrating that there are so many fights for every time because it's like

we've done we've already done this yeah exactly we've done it we've got the ticket but I'm like even if I learned that you know even if I learned what you just said at school when I was younger then maybe when I was trying on makeup in private I'd go oh well a prince has probably done this four years 400 years ago whatever so I'll give a contour a go as well yeah exactly like stuff like that would have been so helpful like and it's see I guess it's maybe because what's funny is the lessons they think they always teach us that they think are important actually are more in the masculine domain so it's about the war and the death and actually all the stuff that probably impacts culture is slightly more feminine and

then is then less heavily weighted in the curriculum so it's all kind of a mismatch of like misogyny and phobia and racism and all of that shit lumped in together um so i'm going to move on to your second one if that's okay of course the second thing that you said was i wish we're taught how to conflict resolve how to apologize how to get over things how to maintain relationships like actual relationship training imagine i love this because I think that this is such an important one to talk about because uh I don't know I find it really difficult admitting when I have conflicts in my life because I have loads of shame around getting things wrong when it comes to like relationships and friendships and I wonder if that's it's because of exactly

what you're saying is like I don't really know how to deal with things when they go wrong yeah I think so too I think that like I think that our like culture is so obsessed with like discarding everything as soon as things go wrong and I just like even think about how I guess in school we are taught to like say sorry but what I don't think we're then taught about is how to maintain the relationship after like you know we say sorry and we lude the other sides of the classroom or you're told that like oh if you don't like her then you know just don't go near her or you're told then like to just stay away and I was like I was thinking about when I had an argument at school when I was really younger and they just was like oh well if you two don't get along then just stay on opposite sides of the classroom and I was like huh well they just was like, oh, well, if you two don't get along, then just stay on opposite sides of the classroom.

And I was like, huh, well, that's the easy option. But like, what do we learn about when we're taught how to apologize, how to resolve that? Like making a mistake isn't the worst thing. It's like a natural thing. It's like a thing that's definitely going to happen. You're going to you're a human and you're in this world. So you're going to fuck up. And so how do we learn how to not be afraid of the fuck up, but instead repair and care about the repair, you know? Do you feel like you've learned the art of conflict resolution now, or do you feel like it's still something that you struggle with oh my god it's still something I'm struggling with definitely um I feel like I've gotten better I feel like um I have gotten better at apologizing and meaning it but I feel like conflict resolution is still the thing that like every day comes up you know I'm

lucky that I'm you know touch wood I've been pretty steady in my friendships for a long time now but I think that's because we've all been committed to like not throwing away each other right so then if something comes up it's like okay I'm not afraid of saying this hurt me um you did this and I feel upset about it and then this other person isn't afraid of going oh shit let me pause before I run or pause before I shout or pause before I think I'm the worst person ever can I pause and go okay let me hear this out you know because I think sometimes like what happens maybe because of how we grow up like we do something wrong and then we're told about it and our first response is to be like I'm the worst person that's ever existed and it's like no you can, you know, you can be a good person that did something wrong, you know.

I definitely got the same as you. Like I've really internalized it. If someone says I've done something wrong and I find it very hard to separate like that from what you just said of suddenly going like, oh, okay, so I am literally the worst person. But I don't know if that's everyone. I think that's probably from like other things that maybe happened in our past where you have like a, you're very quick to like self-doubt and have like negative self-talk. Maybe I think that's where mine comes from. But it was interesting what you're saying about learning to say sorry and meaning it because you're so right that when you're little, you just get told to say sorry, but you never get told to be like, do you understand why this person is upset? Do you realize that you've hurt their feelings and that like it's it's because compassion is such a hard and like an exercise of empathy when you're angry like all

of those feelings feel so complex to explain to a child but I was actually talking about this another episode um with Remy Chardin she was saying that like we've managed to teach children when it comes to this pandemic that they need to wear a mask to protect other people and that's the exact same concept that we need to explain to children in loads of other areas of life whether it's talking about how to not be discriminatory to other children like it's not about you it's about their feelings and she's saying these aren't too big for children to grasp just as adults we're almost too smart small-minded to accept that they can deal with those things and I feel like that's why we all grow up to be

like really shit at dealing with certain things like conflict and then end up in therapy exactly exactly my therapist is probably noddling onto this somewhere but like um yeah and I feel like also it's not even like it's not our ability to say sorry but I think it's also our ability of when we're hurt to also then not respond in this blanket rule of like this person now needs to leave everything you know I think about how so much of like you know I don't I think so much of the conversation the last summer was about police and and prisons and all of these really important big big structures right which I was I was really glad everyone was talking about but I was also thinking about like okay how do we put that into our everyday life well this might sound like a reach but like are we at how are we policing our friendships how are we banishing our

friends when they do things wrong when someone does something wrong in our life are we sending them away to a different place of isolation for years and they are isolated from the whole group now because they've done something wrong is is that our decision and obviously there's no black or white there are some things obviously you go okay I don't need to be around you anymore but you know I've been god I'm on so many tangents I'm so sorry but I've been watching Beverly Hills Real Housewives of Beverly Hills obsessed and literally like I started it in the second lockdown and I'm I feel like in the first lockdown I was like loads of art galleries watching art online shows this second lockdown

I'm real housewives of Beverly Hills all in and they'll have a they'll have a problem in episode one that's about like something so small but because they don't know how to talk about when they feel hurt, it carries over the whole season. And by the end of the season, no one's talking, no one's friends. And it's from this small thing. And it really made me think, lo, I'm using Beverly Hills as my thought practice, but it really helped me think like, fuck, this is what happens if we don't get to like hash out when we're upset, that small things become big things and then people leave. And I don't think there's enough of us to say that we can leave.

Like there's not enough people that are in our marginalized groups or in our identity brackets to say, actually, you've done something wrong and I'm now never going to be with you ever again or talk to you ever again. I just don't believe in it. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario.

Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. No, I think that's so true. And also, I think this is something I've learned in my relationship, but it's like, so that you just have to say something as and when it happens. And it doesn't, sometimes I think it's also the way we deliver things is like it's learning how to be able to say to someone that thing that you did actually makes me feel

really shit but I know that you probably didn't realize but I just want to let you know because in a funny way it's it's almost like um an extension of respect to like give someone the opportunity to change behavior because I hate I bet you would as well the idea of someone thinking that something that I did was like upsetting or like in some way intolerable I would be dying if someone kind of kept that information from me but for some reason we think that oh I just won't I just won't say anything will be better that way and it never is better out than in always. Exactly. And like the actually people growing, I think is the most beautiful thing.

Like I think about like some of my family around like my gender and my transness and all of this, like if I discarded them the first time that they said something like hurtful or said something that I didn't really line up to what I was thinking then I wouldn't now see the versions of them which are so accepting so loving so celebratory like my wider family of me because I would have let them go at the first chance but instead it was like a real lesson in conflict of being like okay this is in conflict with how I'm feeling this

has hurt me can we work through this and then what I've been able to see is like people from so many different generations who would come to terms and then accept and then love and then it'd be a nothing kind of thing about something that in the beginning was a huge conflict you know that's really beautiful now how do you extend that to like because that is the opposite of online discourse at the minute which is kind of like one strike one strike and you're out like you're done but then also when it's someone saying something really terrible they're not out they're on like the front page of the newspaper the next day but how much how much time and compassion do you have outside of your like family like is this how you view

everything do you think that everything has got a bit too spiky yeah and I and I think that it's so weird because even it's so like it's so ironic that even talking about it because I know that this will be online I worry about what I will say about online culture but like I really like this is coming from someone that I think four years ago five years ago was so invested in the call out I was so invested in like this person said this and now I'm blasting them and this was my form of like um justice this was my version of justice and I used to really do that and that's not to say that one's better or worse. It's to say that that was not giving me energy or serving me or getting results. That wasn't changing anyone's mind. That wasn't allowing anyone to grow. Now, again, it's not to say that there were not times when,

damn, if people have said something, I completely get people's rage and I get people's outbursts. And obviously there's always anomalies to the rule. But I do think what happens with online is this vicious cycle of someone from said group is not heard, then becomes popular. And we want to hear them heard because they haven't been heard before. So then we put them on a pedestal that they didn't choose to be. That pedestal gets too high. They can't live up to that pedestal that they didn't choose to be on. They mess up and now they're banished off of it. And then we find a new person to do that to again. And it's not sustainable.

That's not a way of like building equal opportunity and relationships because we're focused on someone being perfect. And that's the problem is if we're looking to all these people online as perfect as like to be an inspiration they have to be perfect then we're of course going to be disappointed when they show evidence of us of them not being perfect you know yeah it's such a good analogy and you're right I also used to it's quite call out culture is quite like addictive because it also does it validates you in some way because you're like oh my god i've spotted them doing

something wrong and like i can tell them what it is and i used to be the same and then the more and more i noticed that i'm like actually that like you said it first of all it stops them in their tracks and it means that like they've then their kind of their journey has ended that might even make them turn around not that it's any on anyone else it's like on every individual to be able to change and grow and whatever but i'm starting to feel the same way as you that actually that just doesn't help any part of the conversation obviously it's so situation dependent and like depends how much but obviously it's like Katie Hopkins then she should just be she doesn't need yeah yeah it is your bite is situational exactly log out I wish we had the wi-fi problem that I'm having right now

I know she should just not be allowed on the world wide web I think she should just have her membership rescinded from the online yeah and I think that I think again like it's this obsession that we have with binary of like a good or a bad person and that like we are forcing these people online in the online world to not hold simultaneity that they could be like both a person that cares about justice and cares about liberation all these things and also be someone that then fucks up and I just am not, I used to be so invested in call-out culture

because I think that must mean that I must think I'm infallible if I'm calling out these people that I must think that I'm perfect then. Whereas actually I'm like, if we're all moving from a place of like, we're all holding all these things of good and bad and fucked up

and wanting like, and fucking shit up in a positive way, then when we approach people maybe we come with more compassion maybe we become with like what is my actual intention when i see this person mess up and sometimes i'll see someone fuck up online and i'll see the cycle of call out happening and i'll look and i'll go you know what i don't have room for compassion for them right now but i also don't have room or energy to jump on a whatever train and shout about and shout into the ether about them so I'm just going to text my friend you know you can take it into a whatsapp

group it doesn't have to be on twitter you can say oh my god did you see what this person said pissed me the fuck off and that can be that can be the energy out you know yeah I agree because it's it's also like you're right it's hard to have compassion for someone they've done something so wrong but actually I do sometimes I am like wow they did not think when they said whatever thing it was that they said if let's imagine that it was slightly wrong rather than something cruel it was like they misworded something or they didn't understand a concept yeah and then when that spirals and it becomes literally like a witch hunt, I am like, Oh fuck. That is like,

no one should, should be on the receiving end of, of that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's a conversation that like will take so long for people to listen to, because I think the internet is not the best place for nuance.

People don't want to hear stuff that's complicated, you know? And so they don't want to hear that you can hold both things and so instead they just go delete and I'm like you know what so I gave up a long time ago I was like you know what this isn't the space where I can have these difficult conversations let me try and have them offline and let me just think about what I can change, which is, can I be more positive online? Can I be more understanding of other people online? Can I not contribute to that kind of energy? Because I definitely think I used to. Well, this was what I was about to ask,

because I imagine that like the fulfillment and the value that you get back from when you create your art and when you do your performances, it must be so much more than that quick snap of like oh my god I've been on a twitter spat or whatever it might be because real life isn't like online like online is such a warped version how does your like real performance and I imagine like where all the brunt of your real work and your passion goes into how

does that compare to when you're online what's your like kind of relationship with those two spaces yeah I feel like such a good question I feel like that I only because I didn't go to art school I didn't go to like formal training I owe online for the only reason I'm in these shows now on tour or that it's because I've built an online platform so I do definitely owe a lot of what I'm doing now to the internet for like giving me a platform when our institutions wouldn't but it was always a means to an end for me I was always like I'm doing this so that I can eventually just do what I know I'm born to do, which is make art and what makes me happy. You know, the internet doesn't make me happy. So, so now that like, I'm lucky that, you know, most of my job and my income is doing art and writing. I find that when I come online, I'm not looking

for the big heated debate, or I'm not looking for the big argument because I've just fleshed out on the stage and so I'm actually like looking for the meme account or like I'm following like all of my all of my friends that are like really amazing beauty bloggers or all of that like I'm going for that and then I really limit before I would spend all day scrolling all these political different discussions and now I go right I need an hour and these are the topics I want to go and learn about I'm going to spend an hour on it and then my timer goes off and I go off and it's really like it's had to be really strict almost like a regime but it's completely changed how I look at the internet because before there was no off switch and now I can be like right

we're all a version of ourselves here let me choose how long I go on it and let me leave, you know? Wow. Are you a very organized person? Because I love that even though you're like, I'm going to look at what I'm going to learn about. Now I'm like, shit, I should do that. I do exactly what you just said before. And I just go down a rabbit hole and end up. Oh, my God.

So organized. Like my friends get drove wild by it. I mean, it's like helpful when we go on holidays and stuff. But I'm like ridiculously type A. my friends get drove wild by it. I mean, it's like helpful when we go on holidays and stuff, but, um, I'm like ridiculously type a, um, like today I was like,

right, I need to learn about like HIV. I want to like fill in my gap of knowledge about HIV and women and a certain part of the world. So then I'm like spend an hour going and reading about it. And then I'll come back and like type up on my laptop. Like, so I have these tabs on my laptop with like all these different things I've learned in different days it's wild it's very obsessive

it's bad but without an off switch it means that I just scroll you know so it needs my brain needs an off switch oh no but I actually kind of feel a bit jealous because I feel like I wanted to ask you this actually but how has your creativity been in the lockdown because I I feel like my, I don't even know who I am anymore. I used to feel so creative all the time. I'd constantly be making notes. And I, a bit like you, I'm like, oh, I'm going to learn about this. Then I'm going to write some poems about it. And now I wake up in the morning and it's like my brain's just off.

Like I can't, nothing comes up. Do you feel that way? Or are you still doing okay on that front? I was definitely until like two months ago I took a I took actually like a really long break and um I said to like everyone that I was working with I was like I'm just gonna like the first lockdown I just sat in bed I was like I don't feel creative um and it was weird it was really odd and I definitely think it's a lot harder because I think that like all the things that I need to be creative like the nightclub or bumping into other friends watching all my

mate's shows you know most of my weeks before the pandemic would be like every other day going to watch one of my friends work you know and that inspires me um and so yeah I've definitely found it harder but I think that a deadline helped I'm not gonna lie when they called and they were like you've been on two month break can you write a play I was like well I better get my ass out of gear and it has helped um but it's definitely hard it's hard it's hard I miss for me it's the nightclubs I didn't realize how much I'm inspired by like going out clubbing oh yeah just even like stories of being around other people and like being out in London and like going into Soho like just going to meetings I just feel like

I get so much just from watching other people all the time yeah and that's gone you know I love like people watching so you know I completely agree it's really hard but then on the other hand I'm like maybe we're supposed to have because I'm the same as you kind of this lockdown I've been like half working but really like non-committally and it's made me feel so guilty but then on the other hand I'm like maybe we're supposed to take a break do you know what I mean yes I think that this is like a real especially for like I don't want to make assumptions but I'm guessing do you freelance like is this a lot of freelance work and stuff yeah yeah yeah yeah I feel like especially for freel, I don't want to make assumptions, but I'm guessing, do you freelance? Like, is this a lot of freelance work and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, especially for freelancers, like I feel like we've, this is a real chance for us to learn what our rhythm

can be and maybe what we're like, because I feel like so many of us are so used to just always working and not really regulating when we're breaking and all of these things. And I think that this, I'm trying to be like, okay, maybe now is a time for me to learn like how to be more generous with my rest, how to like not punish myself when I'm needing a break and that, okay, why am I freelance if it's not to be able to choose my hours? So let me look at the hours that work with my body right now, which means that in the middle of the day,

I never used to take breaks in the middle of the day. And now I'm like in the middle of the day, I'll do two hours and watch Real Housewives of Beverly Hills every single day oh my god I love that so much I've also been doing the same I'm just watching so much stuff but I think I'm almost up to it on Real Housewives which is devastating also oh my god yeah because I've been watching it for years how who's your favorite housewife quickly so I'm in season seven I've gone everywhere like up and down with all of them but I think my favorite is Erica Jane I think she's incredible she is amazing so Lisa used to be my fave but obviously she's not on it anymore is she wait what oh my god soz that's why wait she does no i think maybe it's season eight oh my god i'm so sorry that's okay but i'm kind of glad because i loved lisa but then she's a dick yeah she's been getting

a bit wild like wild i mean that all wild lisa renner i can't even anyway i could talk this is a whole other podcast i could talk about all day it's the best but also quick i will say the last one but also have you gone as far as to start watching vanderpump rules yet or not wait she has a spin-off oh my god it's the best show in the world it actually might be better than real housewives what that follows around her like restaurant and stuff it's It's this restaurant staff and it's so fucking good. You need to watch that as well. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm done. Wait, okay.

So the last thing, sorry, I got so sidetracked was that, and I love this so much. I completely agree is you said, I also wish we were taught how to flirt genuinely would save so much time learning. So please tell me how, what's your like number one chat up line or do you have any tricks of the trade

that you can share with the group? I am so bad. My friends, if they, they don't listen to my podcast anymore, but if they did listen to this, they'll tell you I am so bad. Like just awful. I think I can't even think,

okay, like my trick, it's not even a fucking trick. It's just not even, this is why I'm so bad like just awful I think I can't even think okay like my trick it's not even a fucking trick it's just not even this is why this is why I'm so bad is so I need to be taught but like my trick will be like to pretend like that we have a mutual friend so that we like figure it out and then when they're like realizing that we don't I go I'm really sorry I don't think we have a mutual friend I just thought you were really cute and I wanted to start chatting to you so you just tell them I love that it's not even like something you keep up you just do it and then immediately tell them I lied it's like wait like we'll both be at the bar like I'll wait for us to both be at the bar like if it's like a club or environment and I'll be like oh my god don't you know so and so and they're like who and I'm

like so and so from like so and so place and I'm like no I'm like are you sure and then like they'll do it again I'll be like I'm so sorry I just want to chat to you I thought you're really hot and they'll be like that was fucking awkward I think that's actually a really good trick but I think you have to keep up the lie to make it work that's what I thought but then it okay one time I used to do it with the lie and then the person and I actually went on like a few dates and I then was like shit I owned up to them it was lying and they were like oh that's really weird that you started our relationship with a lie I was like oh so and now I've learned the hard way but it's so difficult though because it's just like what are people there's so many things that can give you the ick when someone is like doing that initial flirting exactly are you

good at flirting um I don't I well I think I must be because literally everyone I've ever gone on a date with I've ended up going out with for about two years at least okay so that is a success rate I'm just a really bad serial monogamist I think I'm jealous that's what I'm trying to aim for and I am just I think that it's because I give must give off a bit of like a homely energy yeah that is true and my pronouns are chaos like I just give off chaos my gender identity is tornado like I just really think on a first date people are are like, homely is not what I'm going to get from you, Travis, at all.

Yeah, but I love that. So then you need to find someone that is your like, ying to your yang. There'll be someone who just absolutely needs you, but you also don't want to get with someone like boring. That'd be really depressing. Oh, no,

no, no, no. I want someone boring. Um, I've been with too many, like, I think I've always attracted like um quite chaotic vibes

because I think people will like we'll meet on a tour or meet on something and then we'll both be like zooming around and then it's always just like too much tornadoes and like a thing and so now I like I want someone that is like so calm, settled in it, just very sure of their energy that they don't need to give all of that. So that then like, I can be the one that's wasn't around maybe. I don't know. This is probably why I'm still single. No, that makes complete sense. Cause actually, even though what I meant by homely is like, I think they think I'll cook them a nice meal, which I do. And, but I am actually definitely the chaotic one in our relationship. But my boyfriend is what I would have also deemed as like stressfully boring like he

wakes up the same time every day which is 6 15 exercises every morning is like in such routine but it's actually the most amazing thing because you accidentally become like that and then he's always really stable so I can have like wobbles and he's like quite steadfast yes so you're right it is boring as chic is there a gay twin of your boyfriend oh my god he does have an identical twin but unfortunately he's not gay no way he's an identical twin that's so funny he is but he's not gay which is sad oh my god we've lost one to the team we did that is upsetting i mean surely mathematically one of them should be gay yeah exactly there's a ratio somewhere so they're definitely one of them's lying i'll let you know to be confirmed and if it is i'll donate matt to your cause thank you so much allyship

literally i've had him for three years you have him for three we'll pass him back that'd be amazing I'll donate Matt to your cause. Thank you so much. Allyship at its heart. Literally, I've had him for three years. You have him for three. We'll pass him back. That'd be amazing. But this is my thing. I couldn't even imagine a three-year relationship. Like, that's why I wish they taught us at school.

Like, I've never done a long relationship ever. And it's something that, like, I just have now been like, maybe I'm just not made for that way like I'm definitely someone that dates multiple people at once or like you know in queer world it's a bit different like lots of people that are like polyamorous so I'll be like the person's the primary relationships second partner do you know I mean I'm like that person and it works well with my time and rhythm but maybe that's because I start with bad flirting opening lines no but I think this other thing is that like maybe the reason that I'm fine it's not easy but have been in longer

term relationship is because I'm so conditioned as a really like heteronormative person like it's almost like it's imbued in me how to do it whereas like who knows that maybe I would have suited something some different setup better but who was I talking I think I was speaking about my cousin about this who's a gay guy and he was like it's interesting I think that when you're part of the queer community you're already outside of the lines so then all of the rules are gone and you're almost given more freedom when it comes to like love and sex and relationships because no one has the expectations or there isn't like there isn't a rule book where actually weirdly if you're heterosexual there is like a kind of a rule book so maybe it's not that you need a long-term relationship maybe it's that

more straight people need to stop being so straight yeah I mean that's so true though because I'm actually thinking this and like I don't know if you do the same on interviews you think about like oh if this person is listening now, like, what would they think you're like coming across as? Or I don't know, I get my head a bit. And I was like thinking, and I just said, oh, I'm not in a long-term relationship. But then I've had like, you know, there's queer people in different parts of the country or world that like for the last five years, every time I go to that city, we'll have really intimate like time together and shit. And I'm like, maybe that is a relationship and it is long- it's just not in the way that like like kind of what you were saying I was like

oh actually you're right like it's not in the rules that we're taught but actually there's someone that I have had a relationship with for five years that all right I see once every now and again um but it's still a relationship in some ways you know that is the most glamorous thing I've ever heard it literally sounds like you have like people in different cities and you're like oh we just when I'm in New York when I've been on tour for like well I started touring like four years ago and I was like right what is the best de-stressor after a show well Well, I don't really want to take drugs as much as I used to, so it's going to have to be dick.

And so, you know, I put the work that I used to put into finding a dealer into finding the right dick. And is it what's easier, do you think? Oh, my God, absolutely getting the drugs. But what has the best health implications? Yeah, I don't have to worry about chat up lines with dealers. But definitely long-term health implications, I can say that the dick is going far better. But yeah, I think that's so interesting you're saying about long-term relationships. I keep

thinking about this all the time. It's like, you're so right. And also we have so many different means, like so many different framings of relationships. But you're so right and also we have so many different means like so many different framings of relationships but you're right that we don't get taught like I keep thinking about this I feel really happy in my relationship but you know how there's always been some like conflicting things like relationships should be like this relationships should be like this even when you're in it you're kind of like am I supposed to be with this person forever like is my brain just is this hormones what is happening like I don't I even think like when it comes to the way that relationships work we should have more of an in-depth explanation on like the psychology of love rather than because we all just get everything from films which is so unhelpful

exactly I think you're so right like there's so much sometimes I'm like oh my god I wish it was a relationship and then you're right I see all these like blogs going about it, you know, an article on Cosmo, a meme. And I'm like, fucking hell, if I was in a relationship right now, I'd be constantly being like, shit, am I meant to be on this listicle of like five things that I'm not doing because I'm in a healthy relationship or whatever. It's overwhelming, you know? Yeah. I think, I think just everything, I think on the one hand, we don't get taught enough in school, but on the other hand, we know way too much. Like sometimes I'm I'm like oh my god I don't need to actually research everything that pops into my head which is what I do yeah so like earlier I

had cramps but like I've just had my period so I was like oh my god it's not period cramps what is it and then I was googling I was like oh I'm dying exactly exactly like oh it must be death coming along again third time this week oh well thank you so much for joining me I'm so glad we can make this work it's been such a giggle and such an enjoyable part of my day yeah this has been so nice I'm glad I just figured out how to unmute google chrome this was love I love it i love living to listening to you've had some good guests on so i'm gassed to be on this i just love it i've seen it my friends yeah also scott you work with scotty don't you and they've been on twice yes yeah yeah scotty was my first um he gave me my first they gave me my first show ever uh yeah so I love story to bits

they're just the best yeah I've been actually not so funny you're always in my diary to email you and I always for some reason forget because honestly for about three seasons I've been meaning to ask you to come on and I just always forget to email you so I'm very glad to have had you on um so for people if they want to you, and can we come and see your show? Is it already all sold out? No, you can come and see it. It's going to be, a lot of it's sold out, but there's some tickets still left.

It's at the Bush Theatre. It opens on the 9th of December until the 22nd of December. And I'm not sure if I'm allowed to tell people. I think I am. And it's being filmed and will be streamed online throughout January as well oh my god that's so exciting amazing and then people want to follow you you're just Travis Alabanza everywhere everywhere yes literally

everywhere amazing well thank you so much for joining me and um thank you everyone for listening i will see you next week bye fanduel casinos exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling We'll be right back. FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly.