Adulting - #90 Meditation, Capitalism and Philosophy with Shona Vertue

Episode Date: January 10, 2021

Hey Podulters, I hope you're well. In this weeks episode I speak to the vivacious, hilarious and ridiculously intelligent Shona Vertue. She is quite frankly, one of my favourite people to speak to. In this episode we discuss the three things Shona wishes she was taught in school, namely; the how and why of meditation, how to survive under capitalism and what it means to be human. I love this episode and I hope you do too! As always please do rate, review and subscribe!O xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Podlters. I hope you're doing okay wherever you are in the world, whether you're in lockdown or whether you're free, as it were, or whatever's going on. I know it's a tough time and it's a tough start to the year. But I hope I can cheer you up with this exhilarating episode with Shona Virtue. Honestly, it was such a pleasure to speak to her. And the day after the episode, because we recorded it quite late in the evening, because she's in Australia, I woke up full of vim and vigor for life. So I hope that it does it for you too. Shona is an author, speaker, yoga teacher, PT, gymnast,

and she's also studying psychology at the moment. And I asked her what three things she wishes she'd been taught in school. I absolutely loved her answers. This is a really fun chat, I think, really insightful. There's some book recommendations in there. And there's also bits of silly waffle between us two that I've just left in because it's just quite lols. Yeah, I really hope you enjoy. And as always, please do rate, review and subscribe. Bye. Bye! I'm going to do something a bit more short. Can we try again? Hi, guys.

I love it. I love it. It's perfect. It's your second appearance. You were like one of my first ever guests. I know, in my bedroom in Labrador Grove. I know, and we spoke for five hours, I think, and I had to edit it all down.

Savage. That was so long. That was a podcast to cut down. Oh, I don't even know what we said. I don't think I'd ever listen to it back now because it just feels like it was so long ago. And I can't bear it. I know, but people keep listening. People keep listening and they tag you and I in it.

And I'm like, I don't remember what we said and it was quite and do you remember everything because we've had a conversation about diversity before obviously before all this sort of stuff had like really come to the forefront of everyone's minds again which is you know it's awesome but it's it's and it's awesome that it's back but the problem was was that I was like oh I don't remember what we said and it could have been quite dated I know that's what I'm thinking because it was like three years ago and we we were trying though okay right before we get into it too much can you give us an introduction for people who might not know you but I'm sure everyone does um can you give us an introduction for people who might not know you, but I'm sure everyone does. Can you give an introduction to Shona Virtue and who you are and what you do? You sprung this on me.

You should have told me that I was going to do this one, but that's all right. No, it's funny. So I am a yoga teacher, personal trainer, ex-gymnast. I'm currently studying psychology in Australia while I'm stuck here, but it's a pretty good place to be stuck. I'm not going to lie. And I have an online fitness program called The Virtue Method. And have I missed anything? Well, I mean, I suppose you wouldn't call yourself an influencer because it's a bit cringe. Well, I don't know. I mean, gosh, I think we all have a bit of influence, don't we?

Like, you know, even people that don't necessarily have like huge, huge followings actually can still be even more powerfully influential. It just really depends on what I feel like the secret key ingredient to being a powerful influencer these days everyone's ears are you're really wriggling out you're really wriggling out there Sonia intro yeah I am of the introduction to Shona no but I really think I really think that the secret key ingredient is um is being really really black and white no zero nuance just going balls to wall aggressive statements and standing behind them because what happens particularly on social media this is all I'm talking about is on social media

I'm not talking about whether you have an ability to, no, it is about an ability to influence because what you end up developing is kind of like a cult following. Because when you have a polarizing opinion, all that happens is that you, the people that disagree with you will vehemently disagree with you. Like they will literally be like, you know, screw that girl but the people but it makes people that do agree with you agree with you so much more because you had the balls to stand up and say this one statement that they want to subscribe to does that make sense oh yeah it makes complete sense I could I could never be that I can't imagine having people vehemently hate me it's not worth people loving me I just couldn't I couldn't deal with it. No, no, no, neither could I. But that's, so that's what I'm saying is that I think that people with potentially less followers, but if you have that secret key ingredient and you can be a person

that stands up and is black, very black and white in your state, then you have more power to influence than someone that may have, you know, whatever, however many followers I have now. It's one of those, it's an interesting thing. It's no longer just that number you have at the top of your, you know, the top of your name on social media was the long winded point that I was trying to make. No, you're completely right. You've actually just articulated something I'm thinking about so much. And actually, I won't go off on too much of a tangent, but literally about 10 minutes

ago on Twitter, I just saw this happen where someone said something um about something oh my god this is gonna be really explaining what it is but basically it's just so funny to watch all these people pile on because someone did what you said they made such a definitive statement all these people were like oh my god yeah and then I actually like read the whole story and they obviously none of the people that had agreed with this person had read anything that had happened prior and it snowballed and it's still happening I'm like this is fascinating none of them know what they're talking about anyway that's you're right it's like Instagram Twitter Facebook those mediums only work when there is no room for nuance which is why I love a podcast because it's long it's long and and you can add the gray and all the shades of gray that

there are and all the shades of colors that there are in between the sort of black and white. And I think that's crazy important, but it's getting, yeah, more people probably need to know that actually, that like one of the tactics for gaining influential power is to be very very black and white and that means that you know it just causes more engagement on their page and so you make the assumption that you know they're really powerful people which they are but you have to take a step back and think like are they really cover you know do they really subscribe to that or are they really covering all base I don't know anyway this is like we've really gone on topic sorry my bad no but you know that's so interesting though

but that's so interesting because this is like I feel like everyone will find that fascinating because it's happening more and more I feel like even especially in the pandemic it's forcing us to be even more like hyperbolic about stuff and really want direction and really want someone with a voice. So we're becoming even more polarized, which is all I ever talk about on the podcast. But this season, I'm asking people and I'm sure we can come back to that point later as well. I'm asking people what three things they wish they'd been taught in school. And we're going to start off with your number one which is meditation why and how yeah well I put I put why and how because it was like we need to learn

why we should why we should meditate and then also how to meditate I think obviously well I've never mastered meditation the only time I tried I think was when we were in Japan together was it but did we try to meditate and then I started laughing and then I got hit on the back with the wooden thing was that in Japan this was with the Buddhist yes we were there oh my god that was that was actually so powerful yeah we were in a we were in a temple my My God, you did get hit. It was quite aggressive. That was great. Yeah, I think more violence during meditation really aligns with the principle.

It was. That was in Kyoto, and it did work. Yeah, you really pulled yourself together. So, yeah, apart from that one time in, when I got hit with a wooden thing, I have never really mastered meditation. And now I'm intrigued to try because of your first thing. So can you expand on this and tell me about your journey with meditation and why you chose this? Okay, well, I can, but you know what I think is less boring than hearing my journey about meditation? Cause you know, it's been quite a long one, but it's sort of standard.

It's like in and out, I went through yoga and, um, you know, then through yoga, I kind of found a style of meditation. Um, and you know, I've found various different styles that have worked for me, but I want to know, because people are going to be able to relate to what it is that you find that you haven't mastered about it. So tell me what are the indicators to you that you can deliberate or come to the conclusion that you haven't mastered it? Like what is it? Give me three things that, you know, give me your top three things that show to you or that help you to come to the conclusion that like,

you know what? I can't meditate. I think the first one is the want and the intention. So like, it always comes back to that. So I'll'll try I feel like I can't really do it but then I think the other part is I don't really understand why I should be doing it and then the last bit is I'm not actually really trying because I don't really so they all kind of interlink so like I'm failing at it then I'm like I don't really understand why I'm doing it then I'm like is there any point and then I try again and it's kind of like I think that happens with lots of yeah okay but so can I go a bit more specific what are the so when you say that first point of failing what is it that makes you think you're failing because I am just thinking the whole time it's why you're not meant to be thinking no that's okay so myth number one myth number one this is why we needed to learn it in high school

because we would all just know this and would have had a pretty steady practice so I'm not by the way I'm not recommending you I sound really tough. I'm like, all right, myth number one, fail. A lot of people think that if you have thoughts during meditation, that you are failing meditation. And what I want to say to that is it's the equivalent of someone saying that when they start exercise and they start sweating, that they're failing at exercise. It is literally that equivalent. So if you go for a run and you run up some stairs and you start sweating and your heart starts racing and you feel really hot and you get a bit red and you attribute all those symptoms, right, of exercise to failure because you're like, well, I'm pretty

sure to exercise where every time I do something, my body starts to pant and I sweat that. And then you, and then you come to the conclusion that maybe exercise isn't for you. That's super problematic. And we can see the, the, the lack of logic there, right? Because we know that those things are part of why it's important to do it. Now, when it comes to meditation, those thoughts, that stream of thought that's coming through is still an important process. If you sit through that, you then develop the ability for those thoughts to somewhat detach a little from those thoughts. And that's where the joy in or joy perhaps one of the

benefits of meditation comes in is that I don't know how much you find that your thoughts affect your mood but for me there's it can be super profound right sometimes and it depends on how consistent my meditation practice has been but at the of times, I can allow a thought to come in and what meditation has done has allowed me in my daily life to create space between the emotion that comes off the back of that thought that comes through. I become much less reactive and we always get thrown, these terms always get thrown around, right? These terms of

like, you know, don't react, respond and blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, sounds great on an Instagram like quote. Yeah. But what does it really mean in real life? And it's kind of like meditation is the practice that enables that. And it enables you to create space. So when you sit there and you're capable of sitting in those thoughts that come streaming through, that is one of many, one of many of the benefits of meditation. So I want you to go back to that seat tomorrow morning and sit down and just sit through your thoughts and go, this is helping. Just like it's helping you to sweat when you exercise.

Does that make sense it makes complete sense and it makes me want to meditate straight away because my thoughts impact my mood like nothing else I could go from being absolutely fine and then just think one thought and I hate everyone within a second which is probably not helping totally hate everyone but then you start to hate yourself and that's probably even more problematic I think when you hate yourself right because it's like then you start to hate yourself and that's probably even more problematic I think when you hate yourself right because it's like then you just fall into this like deeper self-loathing state anyway we don't need to go there but what I guess I need to know is my brain

and I've started doing therapy and it's really funny because my therapist is like I'm talking to her and then I start trying to figure out what I've said she's like I can't even she's like just stop because my what my brain does is I'm I'll be sitting trying to do meditation and then I start thinking and then I'm thinking about the fact that I'm thinking and then I'm thinking well now you're thinking now you're thinking about thinking and then I don't know how how do you ever get past that is what I need to know yeah and so this is where different types of meditation can come into play. So I'm very much like Noni, you and I are so similar. And that's why we do five hour podcasts. But basically, I find because both of our brains will just keep going forever, just keep thinking and

thinking. So different meditation styles can be helpful there. Some people prefer to do mindfulness meditation whereby you might be attuning your mind to focus on something in particular. So mindful meditation can be moving. So some people will talk about mindfulness meditation when they're cleaning the dishes. So it's like, you know, paying attention to the feeling of the soapy water or water running across you, what the sponge feels like in comparison to the plate. And there are moments that you can have in that, in that sense. What the meditation that has been really profound for me has been Vedic meditation. And, and Vedic meditation is very similar to transcendental meditation. In fact, TM, which is kind of coolly called, like all the celebs do TM,

and they're like, oh, I do TM every morning for 20 mins, and then 20 mins at 4 p.m. It really came from VM, Vedic meditation. So did you like my voice then? I loved it so much okay so so it's awesome by the way i think it's awesome that they've made it cool because then hopefully it draws more people so that's not i'm not actually having a dig in in a negative way i think it's awesome but i think that you, what's really helpful with Vedic meditation is that you get given a mantra, you learn about the process and how it works. When it comes to Vedic

meditation, you get given a mantra and you work through learning how to use that mantra. But that is, it provides you with a focal point. And the thoughts continue to come, but you kind of always have a landmark to move back to. So if you start to get really lost in a thought, you train your mind to come back to this mantra that you repeat. And there's a lot more to it. So I'm not doing it justice to explain it that simply. I would highly recommend that you interview like a Vedic meditation teacher at some point, um, or even just go and do some Vedic meditation training or transcendental training. Cause I think Anoni, it would be really good for you and your, your brain. Um, I found it was really profound for mine and it's, it's one of the ones that there's a lot of research on because

it's so consistent. Like one of the issues with mindfulness meditation is that there are so many variables. I'm not shitting on mindfulness meditation, by the way, I think it's also awesome and totally has its place. But when you look at a lot of the studies and the research, it's easier to use Vedic and Transcendental because it's 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the evening, and it's the same process every time. So there's a real consistency there. And obviously there's going to be variables within the brain and within your mind, but the practice remains consistent. So it's easier to study in that sense. So, you know, there are lots of different things. And I think, you know,

had we learned this as teenagers, coming back to the point of this podcast and the point of my long rant was that it would have provided us with incredible tools as it has done for me now but I'm 33 I mean I just wish that I'd had these tools when I was a lot younger I can't even imagine what kind of life I would have led if I had practiced meditation from that age and what it would have done to the neuroplasticity in my brain as well that's a whole other thing so tell tell me about that's what I was about to ask what is the like first of all how long have you been meditating and how long does it take for you to see kind of like a material difference in your I mean it must I'm imagining that it impacts not only your psyche but your physiology and kind of everything.

And also now I want to know that you said about the neuroplasticity in your brain. I just want to know what's the outcome of it? Like what's the real kind of the reason behind it? Because I think we kind of know that meditation is good, but I don't really, I understood what you were saying earlier about like if you have really complicated thoughts or they help you detach from your mood and like, but I'd like to know more about that. What bang are you getting for your buck? Basically, what are you actually getting? Yeah, please. It's really funny.

Sam Harris actually says in his, he has a great app called the Waking Up app and you would actually love that. So shout out to Sam Harris actually says in his, he has a great app called the waking up app and you would actually love that. So shout out to Sam Harris. Some people find him too mental, too intellectual. I don't, I like it. And I think his app is great. You can do 10 minutes or 20 minutes and he does a new meditation every day. So it's less of a sort of standard consistency that you would have in VM or TM. But if your mind is super busy, then using the Sam Harris waking up app could be super beneficial in that sense, because you've got someone guiding you. He's really quite obsessed with what's called like headless meditation. And that's a whole exploration of like the concept of consciousness. And, you know,

is there consciousness? Are we our brains or are we consciousness? And anyway, so we're not even going to get into that topic, but he, one of the things that he talks about is that we shouldn't be meditating for the benefits of meditation, which is interesting. Um, and I don't even know why I brought up this point because i can't really give you the reason as to why he sort of says why he says i remember listening to him sort of say like we shouldn't be meditating i think it was during meditation he's sort of like right try to detach from the benefits of meditation as a reason to sit and do meditation and i was like but but why do, but why? And so it was, it almost felt very Zen because it was a little bit confusing.

And it was sort of, it called attention to me to pay attention to my intention for doing anything in life. But to give you, that's just one, so that's just one thing. But to give you kind of more hard uh benefits to try and sell in meditation to you look there are physiological benefits there really are um and developing focus can have profound effects on your neuro chems um neuro chemicals i I said chems to be cool. But someone that always talks about this very, very, I would say seriously, but also with a lot of importance is Dr. Andrew Huberman, who's a professor of neuroscience at Stanford University. I tag him and share him probably too much. He probably thinks I'm sort

of an avoidant love bomber. That's how much I'm tagging him in all of my posts recently. But one of the things that he talks about and really tries to encourage people to do is to practice meditation, practice stillness because of the effects that it has on your brain. And in particular, your dopamine, which is, you know, everyone loves dopamine and how it can impact your behavior. Because we have to acknowledge, and I talked about this last night in a post, behavior precedes mood. It's one of the things that he says, I quoted him saying it, because often in order to change the neural pathways that provide us with the reward neurocams like dopamine require us to do the behavior over a period of time. Now I'm going to be butchering this description. Okay.

So I don't want to go too deep into this like whole of neuroscience and then be like, Oh God, I've just sent a gazillion things that are not factual. So what I would, what I'm going to leave you with is please, please, please right now, like anyone listening right now, type into your phone or like write it down, Dr. Andrew Huberman, um, and, and follow him on Instagram and also listen to, don't just follow him and then kind of scroll through and double tap for no true engagement. Actually listen to what he talks about. Listen to his podcast. Sorry to drop another podcast on a podcast.

But I think you, Anoni, will absolutely just be obsessed and it might be, it may just be the little, the, the, the, I don't know, sprinkle of salt that changes your perspective on meditation. You know? I, oh, totally. I think that that thing you just said is actually really, what do you say? Behavior precedes mood. Is that how you said it? Or yes. Predetermines or whatever because um I found and I'm sure loads will feel that feel like this but I know that you don't really drink but like over Christmas obviously you drink loads and you have not probably not exercising very much and your sleep's probably off and you're like doing stuff you wouldn't normally do and then I have for the past like

four days felt very much like depressed and then today I made myself like get up and do what I'd normally do I did some yoga I made a great green juice like went on a long walk and I'm like oh my god I'm me hello and I realized I was like it's just because I wasn't doing the things I know that's probably a really oversimplified version of what you're saying but sometimes I think we think things are less simple than they are and it's literally just because we're not giving ourselves what we need and then if I butchered that as well does that make sense oh my no you have just summarized it perfectly I butchered it because I went on a long tangent about neuroscience which I just have no jurisdiction or is way above my pay grade but

perfectly you perfectly just described it there. And exactly, it's exactly right. Sometimes you just have to push through the feeling. And it's really difficult because, God, I realize we've really gone off topic from meditation, but I just, I think it's really important to just to sit and to be able to sit in it. And what, you know, another, another great way that it's described is this sort of, it allows your thoughts to be almost like a waterfall. So the difference is, is that probably for you and I, and many other people listening, our thoughts and the speed of our thoughts, um, feels like we're sort of sitting under a waterfall. And as romantic as that sounds, it's really not.

If you sat under a waterfall, it's pretty fucking annoying. It's like ice cold water, like banging on your head constantly. And you're like trying to breathe and that water's going inside your nose. And you get the photo for Instagram and everyone's like, oh, wow, she's under a waterfall. How lovely. But you're like, oh, wow, she's under a waterfall. How lovely. But you're like trying to survive it, right? So if you think about that, it's kind of like the consistency of our thoughts, right? Just bashing on our head, right?

Bashing into our awareness. And meditation allows you over time, over time, mind you, to actually take a step back and be a couple of meters away from that waterfall. And guess what? That waterfall suddenly becomes really relaxing again because you're like, oh, there it is. And you create this separation. And so this detaching can be super beneficial. All the stuff in between you and the waterfall becomes super beneficial because you can watch the thoughts and you can allow them to come through and it gives you insight into so many things about who you are as a person about rather than judging it but just kind of insight and insight is you know as we know really really powerful objective insight

I feel like this has first of all I feel called out and second of all it feels like an epiphany because this pandemic especially I have found it near impossible to do anything in silence or without some form of content whether that's like listening to a podcast or reading something I've become more than ever really attached to having something to distract me from my thoughts and I hadn't even really thought about it until you're saying that and I I was like, oh my God, I avoid at all costs. I can't even walk to the shop. I'll be like, right, what am I going to listen to? And music isn't enough anymore. It has to be like words, talking, really distracting. And I think that fundamentally now I do need meditation. So you've really sold it to me to me today okay god thank god took me 27 mins

to try and sell that to you probably wasn't a very good elevator no it was so good i can't wait now i'm gonna i'm gonna meditate this evening okay so i could talk about it all day but we're gonna go on to your second one so the second thing that you wish you would taught in school was adulting very on brand um but you have given more descriptors I loved it so clever so you said taxes how to apply for loans how to thrive not just survive in a capitalist world so you can play the system without getting stuck in it I want to talk about the last one I feel like I don't want to talk about taxes because I haven't done my tax return yet and my accountant keeps emailing me and I'm ignoring him. I know, but I just think that if we've learned from a young age, you know, of their existence and, you know, how to kind of manage them in really simple ways.

And it just became kind of like, you know, the way they teach kids to like clean their teeth and you sing a song and you're like, and up and down. And I mean, that's not the song, but like, yeah, I didn't learn that song. But you know, I remember having some songs where it was sort of like reach to the back and like, I don't know, like imagine if you sort of had songs in school that were sort of starting to teach you about those sorts of things that we have to freaking do in life. And so, yeah, it's sort of, I just think there are ways to sort of teach kids and and I think we need to you know assume their intelligence from an earlier age than we tend to well totally but I guess the difference is with us as well because we're freelance and

self-employed and have our own businesses you do actually do your own taxes whereas actually I suppose like the majority of people go through a payroll and actually never necessarily have to do that back-end stuff that we end up doing yes totally but I think if you kind of even just like touch on it so you're like okay I know this is coming you know yeah and then and then you learn what it is to be an entrepreneur versus you know someone that's working uh you know joining a team and being a part of the corporate space. Like it would just be, it would be, I think having an understanding of that sort of stuff would be really beneficial from a young age. So it's just less kind of daunting when you get out and go, oh, fuck. I think the younger that you can introduce certain aspects of life.

Yeah, I should have added, you know, death to that too. I know it's a tough topic for people to be aware of, sorry, but death and taxes, right? It's like I sort of think finding a way, and look, I don't throw myself out there as being the person that should design the curriculum for how you would begin to even discuss death with children. And you also obviously have to consider that there are going to be different cultures and backgrounds that have

ways in which they like to teach. So, you know, you have to be sensitive to that fact. It's like, how do you teach it in school? And then it kind of negates what people believe at home or, but I do think that death, generally speaking, would be an interesting topic or just mortality in general is something that I think that we should be considering all through potentially live life um not to be cliche but to the fullest it's so funny because I said to Matt and actually I said this on my podcast I did my own but I said to Matt weirdly the other day randomly I was like what would you do if you had a year to live and he was kind of like oh go traveling and then he just wanted to do all the stuff he does he does now because he's really content um but the only thing was like working a bit less and I was like isn't it so sad because when you think it's so true like I do think that if you recognize that you could die at any minute what would you change and then try and implement some of that because it might be that you've got

like a massive barrier to something you always wanted to do and then if you really it's like limiting beliefs isn't it or whatever um if you try and cut those out then it changes your path but I always think that it's so sick like bad how much time people spend working like labor like doing work they don't want to do like the amount of cumulative hours that you spend doing that that's I think the saddest thing when you think about if you said to someone like you're going to die in a year what would you do I think the majority of people would be like well I wouldn't do my job you know right exactly and that and you're right about that the other thing that's really interesting um and it was actually Jordan Peterson I was watching him um talk about this um I wish I could take credit

for this because it's such a great it's such a great way to think of it but he was talking about working with a client and he asked his um his you know, how often he thinks that he fights with his son. And so they kind of came up with a number and it was sort of like, it might be like 10 minutes a day, he'll have an argument with his son. And apparently I don't have children, but this is a common occurrence is particularly with like teenage children, you tend to have like the same fight, maybe even not teenage children, but it's sort of the same fight, whether it's around food, whether it's around TV or something, but there are common arguments that can occur day in, day out, because you're constantly having to try and navigate this, this disagreement that you have. Right. And Hey, you know what,

this can happen with couples. It doesn't even have to be children but the story he tells is is that he had spoken to one of his clients about this argument he would continue to have with his son and so they did some arithmetic around it and they worked out that okay yes it may only be 10 minutes a day but accumulatively over time what does that mean in terms of weeks, months, and years? And if you look at it, oh my God, I really talked myself into having to like do some maths here, but I'm not even going to try to attempt. But when you do the maths and you figure it out, like if you all just do it now while you're listening and think about, okay, something that you don't like doing with your partner, I'm not going to do the maths. We're not doing the maths.

You can do the maths, but I'm not going to do it. If you just do the maths while you're listening. You just do the maths. Stop calling out my ways of trying to hide from me. Oh, God. And you do the maths, and you can actually figure out. It's quite scary to think of how many hours or days or months you may spend arguing with someone or even just not having a very nice time with someone. Another point that he brings up and says, he talks about the fact that if every time you get home,

you greet people with the stress of your day, they're not going to like you very much, you know, and that's understandable. And so we have to pay attention, this comes back to meditation really, is that you become very aware of yourself and that self-awareness can be really profound in creating more harmony and balance in your life. So little extra side note there for a tick for meditation. But I think it's sort of like acknowledging, why are we talking about this? About people, if you weren't going to live, if you knew, if you were aware of your mortality, what would you change? Yes. of how much time you're really dedicating to whether it's arguing with someone or arguing with your kids or not being a very nice person to your wife or to your husband.

Maybe it's 10 minutes a day. You kind of know that you get home and you're super grumpy. And then, okay, sure, you loosen up or whatever. But for 10 minutes, you can be really honest about how you're quite grumpy. And you kind of make the excuse of like, well, I just got home from work, like give me a bit of time. Instead, it should be like, okay, you know, I'm going to take responsibility for this. I will go outside into the garden and I can express my needs to my partner and say, I'm actually just going to do my 10 minutes in the garden to like let go of my day. And then I'll come back in. And just so you know, like, don't

disturb me while I'm out here. It's nothing to do with you. It's got to do with my thing, right? But I know this is like, how am I linking this back to mortality? But it's like, if we do pay attention to how much time we spend not being the type of person we want to be, we realize like how much time we're actually wasting on that sort of stuff. And I think mortality and realizing that you're going to die and could die at any point and just how sensitive really human life is or any life really um in these transient bodies i think you'd just make slightly better choices harmonious kind loving choices that was for yourself

this was so good because you've actually tied it into kind of like how to thrive under capitalism because part of the way that capitalism functions is to always make you feel unhappy and like you haven't got enough and that there's always more striving for and in a funny way from what you're saying if you could work out a way to extract more positive time from your day um and not be beholden to looking to material goods or wealth or whatever or changes in order to be satisfied that's kind of a really good way of um your point of like how to thrive rather than survive before we go on to that quickly i just want to ask you do you like Jordan Peterson or do you just um agree with some of the stuff he says why were you going to end this podcast if I was like I really like him and you're like fuck you he's very controversial

I know I'm just checking yeah no no no just just checking just checking yeah you like Stalin or do you just agree with his outfits but I'm comparing Jordan Peterson and Stalin but um no no that's not a good fair comparison um look I try to be I try to listen to people that actually um rub me up the wrong way so Jordan definitely many of the things that he has said um you know we can call we can label him in that standard white privileged male kind of thing um which he would very much uh argue with me on or have have disagreed his own disagreements around that terminology but I think that sometimes the things that he says oh my god where am I going with this Anoni like I I basically I do I agree with some of the things that he says and I also try to use some of the things he says to ensure

or to filter and make sure that I'm not just getting lost in a trend of let's take feminism, for example. Let's just take it as one example because that's where he can sometimes be quite controversial in his statements. He almost seems like very anti-feminist uh kind of concepts now modern feminism if that's what you want to call it not so much um yeah and when I say modern I don't even mean in the academic sense of modern I would say like Instagram feminist current which I feel like yeah yeah like real current feminism as it's labeled today um you

know he really disagrees with so I like to use his opinion as a means to kind of go to kind of check stuff and make sure I'm not just being kind of yeah I guess a confirmation bias you know what I mean like he he sort of is against my bias a lot of the time. So I like to read that or listen to that and kind of then use it to clean my own stuff up or also to be aware of what the other people are saying on the other side of the argument. So I ensure that my perspective isn't so clouded. Does that make sense? I think it's really helpful to hear because I think it goes back to the original thing. And this is sometimes what I found on my podcast.

Actually, no, it's not really on my podcast it's in life the reason I asked you is because I I know that if I hadn't clarified that with you someone would have been like oh my god but she just quoted Jordan Peterson and like he's really anti-feminist and also he rubs me up the wrong way is the perfect way of describing him like I he really pisses me off but at the same time I do agree with you I have also like Matt I remember years ago read 12 rules for life whatever his book was and loved it and then we had this huge argument about do you remember when he did that interview with Helen Lewis and who's also now um kind of been cancelled but for her views on trans um people who are transgender and she kind of got ruined by him because he was explaining his

opinions on feminism which I completely disagree with he was using facts and twisting whatever but it's fascinating because you're right people I think I guess it goes back to that question which I never know the answer but it's like can you um enjoy someone's art if the artist is problematic or whatever that kind of vibe and I think we've gone a bit too far the other way where it's like I simply won't even engage or look or smell or be within the vicinity or say the name of someone that has done xyz and then I think that's when it gets really dangerous yeah I do too I think that makes us more polarized, closed off. I think we stop learning. I think we stop questioning our own theories. And that is dangerous. That's echo chambers,

and we already know how dangerous they are. And social media fuels that. And so we have to have things. I think I've talked about this a lot, and I don't know if you and I have talked about this but one of the statements that really irritates me but I also see its relevance again nuance is everything but um is is when people say when someone says something on insta or like if people don't make you feel good on Instagram, then unfollow them. And I agree with that on the surface level, in the sense, in the context of, okay, maybe in health and fitness, possibly it does make sense that like, if you've just got a feed full of like half naked girls who literally all they do is girls or boys who literally all they do is sorry. I just realized I didn't. Okay.

People, people let's just say people. No, cause I didn't list all the things. And then I realized that that was not very inclusive of me. So let's just say people on Instagram that you follow that might be in the fit that might have fitness pages, they will potentially make you feel shit about your life if they're just, all they talk about is

they're, you know, all they're showing is their lean bodies and great lighting and makeup and this and that. And so you start to feel a little bit shit about yourself over time because all you see is an unfiltered life of yourself and then you go online and you see their filtered life however now I'm not saying don't unfollow them yes curate your feed so that's a little bit more healthy but I think actually better than that better than just shutting that out is actually to gain the self-awareness and just awareness in general to acknowledge that social media is, you know, smoke and mirrors, or it is about great lighting and a highlight reel. And when you acknowledge that, you can take what you need to from that fitness person that you're

following. For example, I'm just using fitness as an example, but there are many examples. You know, you can take what you need to from that person. They may have an expertise in sport that's really beneficial for you, or they may have an expertise in maybe they share great recipes or great workouts even. And if you are like, oh, but they make me feel shit about myself because I don't look like that or whatever it might be. It's like, that's a, that's not really on them. It isn't on them. So your anger and animosity towards them is really just a projection of how you might be feeling about yourself and i'm that's not a criticism that i i can do that i can be known to do the same thing again coming back to a point of meditation is that

it helps you to be aware of these things because it develops self-awareness you take pause and you go shit i'm projecting my unhappiness onto them. But actually, if I was to just sit with myself for a sec and think, okay, that's not real what I'm seeing there. What information can I take? Great. They share this study. They share these sorts of corrective exercises or wherever it might be. And then you turn off your fucking phone and you get on with your life. You don't need to unfollow or curate. Do you know what I mean? You just get off Instagram, if that makes sense, for a bit.

Like, don't keep scrolling. Yeah. Sorry. No, I agree. No, no, no. It's really good. I think another thing that I've started to think about more and more, which is weird, demand for inverted commas authenticity from people that we don't know because again it comes back to that thing of like no one owes you their bad days I find this really weird like I feel like we're

both very transparent and organic whatever you want to call it on Instagram but obviously I don't I don't generally like post a picture of me crying or whatever and I actually always felt possessed to do it the other day because people kept doing it and I kept being like I need to show me crying because this is and I was like no actually I don't want to show me like that's not what I want to show and in life you don't generally walk around to like you don't turn up to your place of work on purpose being vulnerable in order to endear your colleagues like that's so it's weird that we have this like want to like make ourselves feel better by seeing other people's bad bits it's actually really kind of weird isn't it it is it's gotten to that point now and and again we are putting that on to other people as opposed to just taking a moment to say wow like why do I need someone else

to feel bad in order to feel okay about feeling bad? Does that make sense? Like, so it's kind of like you're saying you're sad today, right? And then you were like, I need to see other people feeling sad. So I can know that it's okay for me to feel sad when in actual fact, what we should just be encouraging is an acknowledgement that human beings have an array of emotions and sadness is going to be absolutely one of them and we just shouldn't judge that so you know that's where we take it not cancel that person because they're only happy on their instagram i agree um okay wait sorry no no we're gonna stay on this i just want to ask you now because at the end of this i love it you said you wanted to learn at school how to thrive and not just survive in a

capitalist system capitalist world so you can play the system without getting stuck in it have you figured that out yet well the problem is is that if you start to figure it out you realize that so i feel like i'm in the phase there's a there's a phase that you go through where you have to go into a deep existential crisis before you come through to the like play the game if that makes sense and right now i'm existential crisis going what's the fucking point it's all a fucking big system and we're all stuck in it. And, but it's really quite bleak. Right. And I know it's, it's not all bleak, but when you start to look at how your purchases and your privilege actually oppress others. And the more that you gain further privilege, you squash more people. you realize that system is really quite fucked up.

And that realization, I just wish I'd had a lot earlier so that I could create a better life and not get so comfortable in my privilege to then have to deconstruct and be like, oh my God, I'm a bad person. Oh my God, I'm this. Oh my God, I'm contributing to this in this way. Whereas if it was sort of that we were really made aware of the system and how it works from a young age and then learn how to navigate it in a way that wasn't going to shit on people so badly. Yeah. So I think just understanding how to behave in a way that doesn't shit on people so badly. And what I mean by that is how to navigate the system so that your actions aren't oppressing others.

Now, that is difficult. I don't even know if there is a way, given the nature of the system. But many people have written, many economists have written books about the way that we could move towards, you know, a more utopian society that doesn't. You know, there's a great book.

Oh my God, I can't remember the author because it's the morning for me very early, um it's called Utopia for Realists I'm actually going to google it because I'm I want to do his name justice um that was a game-changing book for me and that was probably the beginning of me starting to go into a path of realization around yeah just how problematic capitalism is but also that it is possible for us to reach a more fair society. It is by Rutger Bergman. Oh, my God, how did I forget that name? Yeah, Utopia for Realists and How We Can Get There.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. I'm literally ordering it as we talk, which I just realized as we're talking, which is so funny, is I don't often read too much nonfiction. But because you were talking about how this book talks about how bad capitalism really is, it was like a confirmation bias of what I talk about. So I immediately wanted to read the book. And I just realized that if someone had told me to read a book about how capitalism is actually really good, I just wouldn't. Isn't that so bad? That's so interesting. Yeah. See, confirmation bias. Totally. Absolutely. There's another book recently that was like, you know, life's something like how life isn't that bad or how life has gotten better. And I can't remember what it's called. It's like Factfulness by Hans Resling. Is that the one? Yeah, Black Lives Matter. I was deep in, in like, you know, pandemic, like just beginning of

pandemic when I found out about the book, I was deep in like my, you know, anger for the world. And I was like, fuck, I don't want to read that. Like I picked it up. I remember looking, perusing in a bookshop and seeing that it was saying like, we've improved. And I'm like, no, we haven't. And I wanted to slam the book down. So, you know, that's like, and I remember laughing at myself as I left the shop, I will read it, but it's, it's one of those things like confirmation bias is very fucking strong within us, you know? So we have to really, that's why, you know, listening to someone like Jordan Peterson, who you may disagree with in many ways is still beneficial. Even if what he's talking about is even if why are we so scared to disagree with

each other now I know but I think more worrying than that is it's like um you cannot even I think about saying stuff sometimes or like commenting on something this is all online though this isn't this is not representative of my real life but online I've become absolutely terrified of questioning something even slightly outside of the correct discourse because people will admit you can not I don't believe in cancelling but I believe that people will take that and run with it rather than knowing that sometimes I'm so ignorant to a topic I just want to ask about it but I know that what I'm asking could be misconstrued as like being on the wrong side whereas it's actually just I'm like I don't fully understand why this is the right thing or whatever it is

and we've lost the ability to engage in these like really helpful conversations which is like my favorite thing to do like ever since we've met all we've ever done is have these ridiculously long conversations really going at a point and like really trying to tease it out and figure it out and there's just no space for that online and that's what's really scary because that's how I learn I feel I'm actually learning I learned nothing last year really genuinely because I think everything has been so cat fighty and angry and I understand because there's so much going on but I've never felt as brain dead as I did last year and obviously that's on top of everything but normally I feel like I'm engaging with people and learning stuff and I've never felt as brain dead as I did last year and obviously that's on top of everything but normally I feel like I'm engaging with people and learning stuff and I've learned

I really just feel like nothing which is sad yeah no no and I and I know but I also think you should not be so tough on yourself given the uh given the circumstances of the world that's true like not learning anything last year it was a a tough year. It was a tough year. This year will probably be just as tough, but at least, at least we sort of, I don't know, unless an asteroid hits or we have a zombie apocalypse or something, at least we're sort of a bit more primed. It's kind of like 2020 was a warm-up. Do you know what I mean?

And warm-ups are really important. They prime the nervous system. And I feel like we had our nervous systems primed to handle what 2021 will bring for us. And so I'm here for it. I'm like, had our nervous systems primed um to handle what 2021 will bring for us and so I'm here for it I'm like all right fucking bring it what you're gonna do resilience is my uh my theme for 2021 that's what I'm gonna cultivate is resilience I love that okay well should we do your last thing um that you've you wanted to learn in school okay so it's neuroscience and philosophy and psychology a subject called being human by shona virtue i'm joking i just

added that i'm gonna pitch it to the to the schools look okay so like i know that maybe you could just frame that as like psychology but i think it's it's not just psychology because yeah neuroscience is a topic in and of itself and i think one of the things about blending those three in particular is that many scientists argue that psychology is not a science um and it's you know there's this it's the it's a kind of age-old argument um i even had it with the doctor recently who was sort of like oh i told him i was like i'm at uni studying psych but i really want to get into neuroscience as well and um and neuropharmacology and he was like yes well well yes oh yeah actually he didn't have an english

accent he's aussie so he's like yeah yeah yeah you definitely should do that um because he was you know he was like you know psychology is not a science it's not a science you know, he was like, you know, psychology is not a science. It's not a science. You know, it's just too vague. It's too vague. And, you know, at least science, science is science. And I was like, okay, thank you for that. You know, we love science because it's safe, because it relatively, what we assume, we sort of, those that subscribe to that method find it very safe. But yeah, so I think by blending something like those you've kind of ticked quite a few boxes there you know what i mean like you've got the kind of um you've got psychology which kind of describes humans human behavior in a way neuroscience which can explain

the i mean that's like a really big topic but it can sort of explain in a more physiological sense, many of these reactions to the behavior or reasons for the behavior on a physiological level. And then you've got philosophy in the middle, which gives you potentially a framework through which you may want to live your life. And I think the more that we learn from different philosophers, the more broader our perspective becomes. Like everything from there's a really beautiful concept in Taoism. It's kind of at the heart of Taoism really, and I'm going to butcher the pronunciation. So anyone that speaks Mandarin, I'm very, very sorry.

But wu-wei, I think that's how you say it, wu-wei. Sorry if I'm butchering that. That sounds perfect. I tried to do the tones, the different tones. There's like five tones, five intonations in Mandarin, I think. Anyway, so basically it's first described in the Tao Te Ching, which was written by Lao Tzu, whose quotes you'll find all over Instagram, underneath sunsets and pictures of bamboo and stuff like that.

And it sort of can be translated to like not making an effort or kind of going with the flow, but it doesn't, it's not about implying like laziness or a lack a lack of effort uh as per se it's it's more about it's more about surrender and surrendering in a way and like again more things that you'll hear online is like surrendering to the universe and things like that but there is a really strong power that we can gain from learning to be in a state of allowing, to be controlling of our behavior and our reactions, yes, but then allowing life to unfold the way that nature unfolds. One of the quotes that you'll, again, find commonly is from Lao Tzu is,

in nature, nothing hurries, and yet everything is accomplished. And so that's just, look, this is just one philosophy. This is just one approach. Imagine if we just had like a gazillion of those in our back pocket and we were just so, the ancient Greeks believed in this, you know, eudaimonia is a concept that refers to human flourishing. And it's basically like they were obsessed with, and Aristotle who introduced it this is Aristotelian philosophy is this concept of eudaimonia this concept of human flourishing is about saying okay we need to tick a few boxes here in order to flourish as humans yes we need to tick the physical wellness we need to tick mental wellness intellectual wellness what does

that look like and I think understanding an array of philosophy from these people who existed in times that, yes, we weren't around, but they had maybe more time to sit and ponder. It's like, oh, my God, like we're really lacking so much wealth there as teenagers that would shape and shift and totally transform the way that we maybe go out into the world and live. And then you bring that together with neuroscience and psychology. Holy shit. It's a new human race. Honestly, this conversation is like, I can't even explain how pepped up I'm feeling. Also, it's like 8.30.m with me but it's like oh my god this is so like listening to you this is like the best thing I've like the most positive and interesting thing I think I've heard all this year although it's only six days in and all of last year like I just want to know what where are you reading all about like oh I love this idea I think it's

something I'm coming to a bit more anyway in general I've had to force myself to kind of let things happen as they're going to happen and not be so tied into I hate hustle culture and I hate the like the way that everything's got to tick a box and you have to fit all of this stuff in and like there's no room to just be living kind of thing um but I would love to read it from like a philosophical standpoint like do you have any really good books you can recommend to us oh my god absolutely okay so so one book that I would really encourage just to get an idea of where you want to go with philosophy is actually just a school of life book you know I love the school of life and you do too um but basically this little tiny book which you could just leave like I'm sort of tempted to buy like 20 of these and

leave them in cafes but then no one's going cafes well they are in Australia but like kind of leave them lying around someone picks it up and goes oh kind of like a bit Emily-esque have you seen that movie Emily yeah I love this idea yeah but anyway there's so it's like a whole other thing but um maybe not maybe not during a pandemic and there's like all these germs and shit, but anyway. It's a good spell. So Philopathy on 40 Ideas is what it's called, Lessons for Life, and it's just a very small book and it only has basically a paragraph or two, quite a thick paragraph on how many, 40, how many? Oh, it's in the clues in the title.

On various different, so I'll give you a few. So one of them is, so obviously it sort of starts with Greek. Eudaimonia is there, by the way. Eros and Philia, you've got existential angst. We've got bamboo as wisdom. What else? We've got tea ceremony. So like he's, I say he, I don't actually know if it was Alain de Botton that wrote it, but it probably wasn't. It was probably someone that was working within the school of life, but possibly him too.

And basically looks at all the different philosophies across time that can be quite profound. And so it's just when you look, and they describe it in a way that gives you the summary that makes you want to look more into it. So when I read this, I actually then started looking into Machiavellian philosophy as well, this notion of like, you know, evil thriving or being able to take from what those who are somewhat evil and powerful, their vigour and their intensity and trying to do good with it. All these different kind of theories and philosophies that we could learn so much from if we were to really have

an understanding that they even existed. And so this just gives you a summary and then it's up to you to then go and, like, look further into books on those sorts of things. But I think it's kind of like a degustation menu for you. I've just ordered that as well. Have you? Yeah. Honestly, this is just really cultural references.

So like what's happening in the zeitgeist with that journalist or what's happened, what's the latest drama? And actually, we get really obsessed in the minutiae. We need to zoom out into all of these things that, as you say, have been around for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years, where people have already been pondering this stuff, you know? Yeah. And pondering at a time where they had more time for that. Now, as technology advances, sure, we can live in luxury. I mean, potentially, not everyone, but I'm just's there's the potential for living in a world that look let's i'm sure that the person who invented all these you know inventors of profound technology probably were coming from a very good place they weren't sitting there thinking like i'm gonna create the mobile phone and it's gonna have people sitting on there like you know sitting on like

hovering over like i'm sure that no one had the intention to create something that was going to have us sitting in a scroll hole. You know, I'm sure that when Instagram was invented or when, you know, Facebook was invented, I'm sure Mark did not sit there and think like, I can't wait to have something, you know, destroy people's lives and the political system as we know it. Like, I'm sure that was not his intention or I like to think that that was not his intention I think the intention was for whatever reason to connect people internationally and globally and yes sure there's a there was probably definitely a financial um perspective on it but I think for the most part it's like how do

we connect people how do we so when it comes to technology great that i think that the inventors of things that make life more convenient for us so technology make um allowing us to not have to do things that we would have done before we should be then putting that time into developing further self-awareness or cultivating more awareness of the world as it is or spending time pondering in nature. You know, I think that something like AI, which everyone can, you can look at it from the perspective of artificial intelligence is going to take away jobs. It's going to mean that, you know, they'll take over and very scary things will happen because of it. And that may well happen. I'm sure it will. But I also think the other way to look at AI is to see, okay, perhaps it's going to take away labor that we are otherwise kind of really invested in because we have to. And now we

get to sit and stare out our window and ponder things potentially and look that's a really like good way of looking at it I don't know if that's actually going to happen but you know what I mean does that make sense my big oh my god no it makes complete sense it's not so funny so I was talking to Ash Sarkar who like loves Marxism and I'm really not that well read and I said exactly what you said and I was like what about if robots end up doing all the menial labor and then everyone can just like have so much more free time and she was like you've literally just explained Marx's theory of um I can't remember what it was it was like had a name and I literally cringed because I honestly thought I'd come up with this idea she was like that is like a theory

I was like okay then and also then upon reflection I actually think I'd heard her speaking about it before like years ago and then had like absorbed it and decided that it was my own um what's the word organic thought and it wasn't I just said something oh it's so so no it makes complete sense I love that yeah but I think we've got we going to have like a zillion of those in our brain and they come up and we think that we came up with it, but actually it was a TV show that we saw like when we were like seven or a piece of art or something like that. So, yeah, no, no, no, absolutely, yes. But that is one perspective or one way to look at not just artificial

intelligence but perspective is everything anyway, really, because we can choose to look at things in a bleak way or we can choose to look at them from a from a more positive perspective or and not even just positive because I hate this notion that we have to paint everything positive. But maybe let's say instead of the word positive. Optimistic. Yeah, but also like let's say functional because rather than even just optimistic, well, optimistic, optimistic is good. Cause I think you could say that functionality is that, but I think if we look at things from a functional perspective, we can say that yes, they may have negative outcomes, um, on one degree, but even those negative outcomes

could lead to further development, development again self-awareness or you know the gift of adversity is that we often think grow out of our pain in really profound transforming ways so anyway that was a big tangent no I love it it's so good um no I think it's fascinating it's all just making me I'm just thinking loads now about and I agree and also even this conversation I know you I do agree and there's such a thing as like toxic positivity online where we attribute everything to being positive and then it's actually really problematic because people should be able to feel every kind of emotion and you shouldn't be like you should just be happy no matter what because that doesn't work um but

oh yeah I was going to recommend your book going back to sorry right back to when you were saying about I'm sure that the creators of whatever didn't have those thoughts Matt's reading a book at the minute called No Filter by um is it Sarah Fryer and he keeps like telling me all these really interesting facts yeah Sarah Fryer it's the in the inside story of Instagram um yes and it has been trying to get me to read this for so long. Yeah, I need to. No, wait, this is new. It came out on the 14th of April 2020.

That's not new. We're like into a new year. Oh, okay. Is it new? I mean, God, I feel like April's a while ago, no? Well, I don't know. But when you were like, Francesca, make me read it for so long, I thought you meant like years. I suppose that is quite, oh, yeah, I feel like April's a while ago, no? Well, I don't know. But when you were like, for just speaking to me for so long, I thought you meant like years.

I suppose that is quite, yeah, I suppose that is almost a year. No, it feels like fucking years. Every month felt like a year in 2020, did it not? Yeah, but I also think it was the quickest year of my life by far. Like I can't even remember what happened. Really? Yeah. Yeah, actually, that's true.

I was sort of wishing a lot of days away um in 2020 but definitely I definitely also felt like for fuck's sake this is dragging on because I had so many like kind of really poignant uncomfortable lessons about myself in 2020 as well because obviously we're all forced to sort of just sit in our quote-unquote shit um hopefully not literally but maybe some people too um myself in 2020 as well because obviously we're all forced to sort of just sit in our quote unquote shit um hopefully not literally but maybe some people too um but it was but it was really quite like harsh and so you know when you've ever had to sit and shit be it literal or you know metaphorical it's fucking time goes slow you want to learn how to develop and cultivate presence

fucking be in your own shit for a bit and you're like oh here I am here I am with no with no ability to distract yourself do you know what I mean and so I knew that I had to get in a lot of that stuff um you know be it with meditation or just not being able to like travel has been such a big thing for me um in previous years to escape from yeah things that I didn't want to face about myself and uh you know I've been stuck here at home where I grew up and all those lessons came up uh in 2020 and I just had to sort of take a long hard look at them so it was every month felt like a year maybe maybe that's where I went wrong because the same thing happened to me what all this stuff came up and I had the worst at mental health I've ever had and I had a bit like of a crisis but I obviously don't think I

dealt with it properly because I can't remember any I don't remember any of it but I knew I know it happened but like honestly I was like it was like trudging there's like pockets that I can remember really specifically but honestly like if I look back on 2020 I feel like it was like trudging there's like pockets that I can remember really specifically but honestly like if I look back on 2020 I feel like it was yesterday that it was March in 2020 like how did that it just disappeared yeah so funny how different our perspective on on time is I mean it felt slow some of it when I was in it, but so much of it, I just, I think because of the continuum of being in the same place, doing the same thing with the same person, it really like, I couldn't have told you which month something happened in. Right. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay.

Cause it was all just like, I was just with Matt every day in the flat. So like, was that on Tuesday? Was that on Friday? I don't know. That sounds so blissful though. I love that you guys have each other. Matt is like the most obscenely securely attached person ever and nothing riles him. So it's like being attached.

Say you're in the sea and I'm on a piece of rope it's like being attached to a boy and even if like a massive wave comes he's just still there yeah exactly yeah or you it's scary but you're but he's still there you still know that you have that that support that's a beautiful that's a beautiful metaphor thanks for simile like did you say he was no it's a simile not a medical but yeah i think that would that was another thing look as a little side note number four breaking the rules because you said i could only have three and you did touch on it with learning attachment theory the only reason why i would say i wouldn't want to just learn attachment theory is that it's a good

framework for understanding relationships um and it would have been really profound for me to know about those probably more so in my 20s because I don't think I would have had the maturity unless it was delivered in a way that was really helpful. Also, you can't just have a bunch of resentful teenagers knowing about attachment theory if their home is trying to apply it back to like my my childhood and like if I was a teenager and I knew about attachment theory like how that would have affected my perspective on my home and I probably would have been like get the fuck out of here which also probably wouldn't have been helpful but that's that would have been my teenager response would be like fuck fuck fuck this is gonna fuck me up for a long time. Whereas it was always better to live in ignorance and then just have to try and unpack it in my thirties. So, you know, and also sometimes when we know too much, like we can kind of like make an assumption that something is that, and it's not

necessarily. So I do think that, you know, you do have to have a degree of maturity that just can't necessarily be taught. It just has to come from like no preparation is really going to allow you to be, you know, aware of what that sort of stuff is. However, maybe, you know, learning about attachment theory within that subject called being human that we're going to pitch to the schools, you know, would give you at least one framework to kind of look at things, but also understanding social comparison theory and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, as well as also understanding some of the Eastern philosophies that look at that, because a lot of the things that are quite interesting, and it's quite a controversial subject, which perhaps we can, you and I can just have a conversation about, you know, another time is, you know, this correlation between like Maslow's hierarchy of needs is really just like the seven chakras. And yet, you know, many people will kind of like shit on Eastern philosophy and

Eastern practices because they're like, oh, it's too esoteric. It's too dogmatic. You know, it's all that wishy-washy stuff. But then it's like this western guy comes in and is like maslow's hierarchy of needs like this is this and it's like oh amazing and so you have all these people like quoting it and saying that it's you know and and and a lot of people in the west will subscribe to it and go like oh yeah absolutely but you mention a chakra and they're like uh ew like no i'm I'm a scientific person whatever they might say so that's that's me called out because I only have ever really had those theories through Mazda's hierarchy of needs and that was also like about four years it wasn't even that long ago and I was like wow this is so revolutionary like of course people need a home

and love and water before they can access happiness like honestly I'm so fucking dumb but sometimes things do have to be really spelled out for you because it's so glaringly obvious but it's going back to that point of like it's so easy to get so distracted by the infinitesimal, weird stuff that goes on in your day or your life or whatever. And I guess that's what you're saying as well. Meditation grounds you into the more important, deeper, crucial parts of life rather than like the histrionics and the neuroses that modern day and technology and capitalism kind of push you into getting obsessed with as a distraction I guess almost yes exactly absolutely and it's funny oh you really need to listen to Andrew Huberman you might want to like you don't even need to include what I'm about to say here because I'm probably going to butcher it but honestly like some of the podcasts I've listened to with him talking in fact just just get him on the podcast Anoni honestly get him on the podcast

well I mean I I think he is because but I I I have put him I mean like is he too famous for me to get him is what I mean no oh my god first of all you are Anoni so let's just like honor who you are absolutely not um so no he's not too famous but but also I I just haven't heard him on many female podcasts um and I think that he should be I also think that you have such an incredible audience for what he's talking about he's just fucking brilliant just slide into the dmc if uh see if you can get him on or email him but he's a professor at of neuroscience at stanford university and what he's trying to do is really from what i've seen like listen to a few of his podcasts to his podcast and to the podcast that he's been on but what he's trying to do is take the understanding and awareness of what they've gained in neuroscience, in the neuroscience space, and then give it to people so that they can

apply that wisdom to learning to take better control over their brain and then neurochem, right? So one of the things that he talks about is that, and this is this notion of behavior precedes mood. So often we're waiting for the mood to feel motivated to do something but what he talks about is the fact that and again i'm butchering it so like please don't quote me on any of this but he talks about the fact that your dopamine response will sometimes only come after you've forced yourself to sit for a period of time and focus on one thing and as you you move through there's always he basically says he's like there's always going to be a period of agitation at the beginning

of any moment you have to force yourself into focus there's always going to be a period of agitation but if you can do it enough times develop the neurological pathways that are going to or the neural pathways that are going to, or the neural pathways that are going to facilitate that. You are training your brain to say, this is important to me. I need to do this task. Then over time, the dopamine response comes from that, right? We'll come after that fact of you choosing the behavior to be consistent and to be focused. So it's just really profound because we're always waiting for this kind of like the flow state. And we're always waiting for like a wave of inspiration. And while I think that it's awesome to ride those ways of

inspiration, it's very difficult to like, particularly pandemic times, like, I don't know about you, but those have been few and far between for me. Like I felt a bit more deflated. I get the waves, but the act of having to sit down and type out this wave of inspiration I get has been like really, I'm like, nah, can't be bothered. Can't do it. It's like a real depressing state.

I can't get over this conversation. It's so weird. It's like smacking me in the face because this is all the stuff that I've kind of been thinking about that I know to be true because I've done this before weirdly in the frame of mind I've been and I was in like years ago and my last review I was in a really bad place and like I felt really shit and I had to actively tell myself that I was going to um do the thing before it happened if that makes sense I was going to be proactive like even if I felt shit I was going to create my own destiny kind of thing I think I'd actually been reading loads of psychology online at the time because I was like I'm in such a desperate

situation I need to get out like I'm basically it was me recognizing that I was the only one responsible for how I was feeling what I was doing and I couldn't just wait for the world to like make everything right I was going to have to do something about it and that was such a yes yeah it was such like a freeing and liberating thing to happen and I've realized that in the pandemic the same thing has happened to me where I've been lulled into this like oh my god I can't do anything and everything's going wrong because also the world is falling about around us and everyone apart yeah and everyone's telling you that that's happening so then you almost in a weird way become comforted by the fact that you can't do anything and then

you kind of stop and I think that's what I feel like and I've lost all sense of I keep being like oh my god I've had no I feel really creatively stifled and it's like but what am I doing to to make creativity come to me kind of thing. Exactly. And I also think that if you sit in nature and I know that look, nature again is a privilege for many people, but when I say sit in nature, obviously like when I put it on my Instagram, it's like, I've got very, I'm very lucky to be in beautiful nature at my doorstep, but the profound effects that we can have again on a neuro chemical level can happen from just observing even like a tree or a blade of grass or anything like that and and you know they've done research on this that it can still have the same profound effects so it doesn't need to be

this concept of course everyone wants to be able to like wake up and go and watch the sunrise from the beach or the ocean. That's the dream, but it's not everyone has access to that. Does that mean that only those small few people that can do that are ever going to have the benefits of nature? Absolutely not. It's just a question of what are you tuning your perspective and your awareness to? So if you were to even just go sit on a park bench, no phone and sit there and just observe nature, the profound effects that it's going to have on your neuro, your physiological state within your brain is huge. And even though we can sit there and think like, oh, but I'm just, that might be a good actual beginning to meditation for you as well, actually, and this is probably comes more from the mindfulness kind

of teachings. But if you were to just go sit on a park bench, are you guys allowed outside? You allowed out? You're allowed out. We're allowed, yeah, we're allowed to go outside. Sorry, I didn't know. We're not literally locked in our houses.

We'd like, imagine if we were just locked in our houses, like in the actual 20s, you know, when they had the police coming to the door in the prohibition. It's not like that. Okay, well, that's good. Thank goodness. Well, but when you do quarantine,

you're actually not allowed out. You're actually literally inside. Yeah, it hasn't gone that bad. I wasn't sure what tier four meant, actually hasn't gone that bad I wasn't sure what tier four meant actually for you guys I wasn't sure if that was like hey tier four not allowed out and like people what there were actual frontline workers that were going to like deliver food to you guys and stuff like that no quarantine quarantine's only if you've got symptoms or if you're self-isolated or if you're like um if you've been on holiday or something like that then you can't you're not meant to leave your house but

in general you're allowed out to exercise and like to shop and stuff as long as you're not you know contagious in any way symptomatic yeah exactly or been in contact with someone that was symptomatic yeah they call yeah um what were say was i sit down and observe nature even if it's just sitting in the grass or looking and i know it's not as fun in winter but like rug up put a few jackets on and go sit there and just like watch nature unfold and there's just so much to learn from it like even just something as profound as kind of going like why is nature beautiful to us and and this was something that i had i'd gone gone into the forest like after the pandemic hit and I was like I just need to like get into the forest for a bit and I walked around and I was like nature is beautiful because

it doesn't resist change and it was this thought that came into my mind and I was like oh my god who knows it's probably the same thing where I'm like oh I came up with this idea but like who knows probably is in the Tao Te Ching or something like that. And I'm just trying to take credit for it. Luckily Lao Tzu was not going to be on the podcast with me saying like, actually, that was my theory. But anyway, I was walking through and I just had this voice of like, yes, it doesn't resist change. It's just, it's kind of unfolding and it yields to whatever is around it. And it's a really harmonious process. And I was like, fuck, how can I take that and apply it to my own life or apply it to

my relationships? And it suddenly took the pressure off. And at the time, I was sort of going through this like awkward relationship or situation ship. And I just decided like rather than like fighting to make this work, I'm just going to be in a state of allowing. All I can do is be my authentic self. And if that isn't enough for someone else, that doesn't say anything about my worth. It doesn't

say anything about what I need to change about myself. It's just like, here I am. This is me. And I'm obviously trying to, if I'm hurting someone, I'm going to change, obviously. But if that person doesn't like who you are, allow them to leave rather than changing yourself to be them and allow them to leave or stand your ground. And they will, if they like who they are with, then they will stay. Do you know what I mean? And so it's like, and I took that from nature. And obviously I took that from other things that I've read, obviously about relationships as well, but it was really a profound reminder that I'd gotten from just a stroll in the forest. Oh, you're amazing. I love you.

Oh, I love you, Moni. I love you. But you can tell I spend a lot of time in my head and by myself. And that's another thing is like, you know, sometimes I probably need to just hang out with friends rather than sort of sitting there. But I'm an only child and I have a very active brain so this tends to happen to me a lot is I go into the forest by myself I love being by myself more than I realize I do like I actually love being on my own you know when people are oh my god I just can't be on my own I'm like me neither ha ha ha secretly I'm like oh my god leave me alone like I love I love being with people but I love being on my own I really need my own space at some point in the day and I'm gonna start I need but love being with people but I love being on my own I really need my own space at some point in the day and I'm gonna start I need but I say that and then I'm like constantly

consuming I really need to do I'm gonna start walking in the forest by myself I don't know where I'm gonna find a forest but I'm gonna find one in London yes but that's what I'm saying you could just do the park and you could do the park phoneless and I know I don't want to like someone's gonna be like that's dangerous and irresponsible for you to suggest that um because it's not safe in all areas or whatever so like common sense there yeah you might need your phone but maybe turn it off or like put it on an airplane or something like that where you're not where you actually have to take a few thought processes to to um like um, like to, to actually, um, to turn back notifications on, if that makes sense. So it's like, if you pull out your phone and Instagram's like way back

behind in, in all your apps. And also, you know, you've put it on airplane mode, so you have to go through, turn it off. It's like all that time that you're creating, that space you're creating gives you enough time to think in your head, like, hang on a am I actually doing this why am I turning my notifications back on oh you know what no I'm just trying to distract myself phone back in pocket look at a leaf yeah no I love that I'm definitely gonna try and do that um I just can't believe how much of what you said has been like exactly what I needed to it's like the perfect conversation I feel like you just you're so wise and you just make me want to read every book and never ever go on my phone ever again yeah I know but this is not gonna be very happy with me for doing that to you and that's basically what happened to me 2020 was I

was like fuck Instagram fuck social media I need to learn more I I need books. I need, and it was really helpful for my mental health, but not so great in terms of like, you know, keeping engaged in terms of, it's, I mean, business ticks over because the product that I sell is quality, but it's, it's like in terms of that, you know, where quote unquote influences, and there's still a level of engagement that you feel like you have to maintain and that's our job. And it's like it definitely wasn't wasn't good for that so you still need to find the harmony sorry Francesca Zampi no she's she's actually so good she was like what happened oh something happened with me and she was like just don't go on Instagram for like a month I was like Francesca I don't think I could do that I think I've got stuff to do she was like honestly if you're stressed just just don't do it just don't do

it to yourself she's good like that that's true she's amazing like that yeah she's really she's all about and authenticity and integrity she's yeah she's amazing um okay I can hit this is a meme because I don't want to stop but Matt Matt's texted me being like, dinner's ready. So... That's late? What time do you go to bed? Oh, well, we're having it a bit later because I'm recording. Normally, we have dinner at like eight, but because I'm recording today, we're just doing it later. Oh, my bad. Sorry.

Sorry, my bad. No, no, no. It's not your fault. No, no. I have to... It's my mum's birthday. So, I need to go and, like, do things for her. Oh, my God. But wait, let's do a formal goodbye. Oh, we don't have to do formal, but I just need to say thank you and then have to do the bit like, if people want to find you, et cetera. Okay, cool.

Can you leave this bit in because it's funny. Anyway, sorry, no, you don't have to. Okay. Yes. Okay. If people want to find you. Okay, go. Okay, so thank you so much for coming on I can't remember what we just said or if this is going to make sense we're just doing this outro now maybe I will have to leave that in

um but thank you for spending a very early morning with me it's been such a pleasure and as you know as we always normally would this would usually have gone on for five hours if we were allowed the time yeah if you and I were just hanging out in in in my bedroom we would have sat on my bed and talked for five hours exactly oh that really long walk that we did also didn't we walk that time in Australia it was like three hours or something so yeah yeah we had such a oh my god I just love every time we hang what we should have done before this podcast I mean it's not gone that long this is short for us by the way this is a warm-up for you and me but we should have probably decided on the station beforehand but then it's also then we'd probably lose stuff

and we'd try and talk about it in the podcast and it just lose it this is the first time in a long time but we always just do this really intense really long like we've actually only met each other like four times but it's always been in like either japan australia in your bed or like really random places and it's been so concentrated and just conversation yeah it was excellent i honestly i I feel really inspired myself so I'm I'm gonna go I just feel so uplifted I love these this is awesome this is my type this okay this is my type of friendship um which I'm so thankful to you for uh like facilitating because I'm not very good and sometimes people interpret my my uh friendship as my mom's just coming. Come in, mom. Come in.

That's all right. I'll be too many. Sorry, I've got a really squeaky door. Oh, my God. Happy birthday. Oh, happy birthday. So people interpret my friendship, you know, my lack of like presence into my friendship as being –

it's not that I have a lack of presence it's just that when we're together I'll be so intensely concentrated as as you know right it'll be like five hours we'll have like really deep conversation we'll come up with all these profound ideas and then I kind of go off like a nomad for a bit and I need to just process everything we talked about and I process my own life and then I like to come back and have another moment of kind of profound connection and whatever. And I tend to be that kind of friend. I'm not the sort of, and it's not about being a fair-weathered friend.

It's just because if you call me and you're like, I have a problem, I will 100% be there. But in terms of, mum, don't open the door. Mum's opening the door. She's like, why don't you sit out on the balcony? Wait, you're not going out there are you going okay she's going to open okay and right okay so it's it's that I sort of am not that kind of yeah I guess

like I'd rather have really profound intense connections connections with people with a bigger distance in between than to have kind of like tea catch-ups and superficial conversation on a regular basis, like a daily or weekly basis. But people interpret that, you know, if their love language as a friend is like, you know, tea catch-ups every day or week or whatever, they may interpret my friendship as like very lacking or as I said before, fair weathered. And it's really not that. So I appreciate you.

Fuck, that was a long way of saying all this. But I appreciate that you hold that space for me to for us to have this really intense, concentrated conversation and kind of explosion and kind of intellectual orgasmic experience. And then we both kind of go away, of intellectual orgasmic experience and then we both kind of go away live our lives and come back and compare notes right yeah I love it I love it but also I think it's because I'm the same as you I hate that like I really hate shit chat you know it's just like really non-committal like checking in meaning nothing yeah I think you either have to have I have certain friends who I do speak to every day but it's like it's a continuum of the conversation we had the day before so it's like

it's never ever oh my god hey babe hey babe you okay yeah I'm good you it's like actually genuinely like interesting conversation and we might FaceTime for an hour and then you put the phone down that's great or I have friends that I just I don't have any in between conversation until I see them the next time which is what I prefer because I'm really bad at WhatsAppping. I'm really bad at small chat. I do. I just don't reply. And I feel really bad about it.

So I'll reach out to people. I'm like, oh my God, how are you? And then they reply. And I'm like, fuck, because I don't want to reply. But I feel like I have to, I want to reach out because I want them to know that I'm there. But I don't want to reply when they reply. It's also really, just to give a little side note, I know you've got to go. I'm just going to give you a side note.

I also think that for anyone that is listening that like maybe has that friend, if they work on social media or they work on their phones a lot, like as in they have to be constantly typing stuff on their phones and interacting with lots of people on a light level they're probably not going to have much space for that little chit chat with you not because they don't want to connect with you but because they do it so much in their job like I find when I dated a personal trainer um you know my he was my second boyfriend I used to I'd get home and he would just want to sit there for a bit in like at least like two hours in silence because for the whole day, for like eight hours, he was talking to a

new client. And I would interpret that as him being like not wanting to talk to me. And I, you know, really found it hard in the beginning. It wasn't until I became a personal trainer that I was like, fuck Sean, I'm so sorry. I fully realized why you needed that silence when you got home to just be able to just sit and be in your own space. And it's not that you didn't want to be with me, but you just wanted to sit next to me in that silence. So anyone that works on social media that has to constantly be commenting back to people, not has to, but does because that's their job and they enjoy that, they're going to be less likely to, yeah, I think anyway.

Fuck, I don't know. Anyway, sorry, Matt. No, that's okay. No, that's so fascinating. I hadn't ever thought of it like that. It's so true. And I sometimes feel guilty about that because you're right. You do have to have these light and obviously really fruitful conversations

with your audience and people that, and then I do get really bad residual guilt thinking why have I got time to do that? And then I can't, honestly, I dread opening. I that and then I can't honestly I'd like I dread opening I get so scared about opening what's up because I'm like oh no they're gonna see him online or like they're gonna oh my god me too I'm exactly the same but and and it's the worst because you treat your friend like you know you treat those people closest to you sometimes like with that sort of like you know what my life's like so I'm sorry and like so you know it's like I don't want to be that person but at the same time like I've got to do this thing and I've got to do this job and there's we live in a different world but to them social media is

social and does come second but their job comes first but social media is our job so it's it's a bit different it's it's weird anyway anyway okay that was honestly so no I love I found that really interesting and I want to leave it in so my friends know um okay so back to social media for people who don't follow I'm sure everyone already does is there anything that you want to point us in the direction of and where do we find you online or in real life if you want uh in real life my address is um no don't I will not do that um you can find me just at shona underscore virtue um at shona underscore virtue on instagram um my youtube channel I have lots and lots of yoga classes and and fitness classes in real time and definitely head to my website www.shonavirtue.com

and join the virtue crew love it you've been the dream guest honestly I'm like smiling from ear to ear and my face hurts oh I love you so much I always I feel so alive I haven't even had a coffee I've had this tiny instant coffee but I just feel so alive so thank you for having me thanks for this chat they're always so nourishing I normally at this time it gets so smoothie and I'm like buzzing off the walls now so poor Matt yes poor Matt enjoy Matt okay right I'm gonna love you and leave you um thank you again oh actually thank you everyone for listening bye bye Fandu Casino Daily Jackpots guaranteed to hit by 11pm with your chance

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