Adulting - Adulting 2.0: Liv Little

Episode Date: February 26, 2023

Hey Podulters! Welcome to Adulting 2.0: The Timelines.Liv Little is a creator, author, producer and the founder of gal-dem, a publication committed to telling the stories of people of colour from marginalised genders. Since founding gal-dem at uni she's gone on to write her debut novel 'Rosewater' and has stepped away from gal-dem to pursue a career in writing and tv.In this episode we discuss her new book, and how losing a parent, founding a business at a young age, and learning to protect your mental health affect the timeline of your life. Liv's novel 'Rosewater' is released on 20th April and is available to pre-order now. I hope you enjoy, and as always please do rate, review and subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hey, poddlters. I hope you're well. In this week's episode, I speak to creator, producer, author, and the founder of Galdem, Liv Little. Liv founded Galdem, a publication committed to telling the stories of people of colour from marginalised genders when she was still at uni. And since then, she's gone on to write her debut novel, Rosewater, and has stepped away from Galdem to pursue a career in writing and TV. We discuss how losing a parent, the pressure of founding a business at a young age and learning to protect

your mental health can really impact the timeline of your life. I really hope you enjoy and you can pre-order Rosewater now and I really recommend doing so because I absolutely loved it. Happy listening. Bye. So I've just read your debut novel Rosewater and I absolutely loved it and I'm really excited and

it's out very soon but that isn't where you started when it came to work and you've kind of been through a lot of change over the last few years we're both 28 same age can you talk me through how your timeline has shifted over the last couple years and how you got to the point now because you just said to me a minute ago you feel really happy and settled and yeah um oh my god like the journey I'm like I guess in terms of my adult life um I I guess going back to around the time at uni was the start of my creative career which has kind of built up to where I am now I set up Galdham at uni in my final year like out of frustration and wanting to connect with people and simultaneously I was really

interested in getting into tv so when I graduated I think Galdam was maybe a year old at that point I also went on and did like a one of those trainee traineeships at channel four and so I was working in like factual telly and doing the two kind of alongside it and I think it got to a point where it was impossible to juggle like the intensity of factual television with another full-time job which was Galdem at the time and I think it was about making that decision to pursue Galdem fully and not um and and I I've come back to TV now which is really amazing but I think at the time it was impossible to do both. For those who aren't familiar, can you tell us about what Galdem is?

How you started it? Because it's kind of like an empire in its own right. Yeah. So Galdem is a media publication committed to championing the voices of people of colour from marginalised genders. And I started it when I was 21. Didn't know anything. And learned a lot very quickly and then yeah we worked on like so many amazing projects guardian takeovers vna takeovers um campaigns I don't know just publishing loads of content working on like mini docu-series

and I think I would always try and bring a bit of the like my love for video format kind of into that space as well um and launching like a short film like spotlight platform um but really yeah it was about bringing people together and I and I did that for seven years uh alongside other things and so many of the journalists and the writers that you had on Galdan that was like how I discovered some of my most favorite writers and you kind of really did find these people that have gone on to like have incredible careers they're all everyone that started on Galdem who I initially found through Galdem that didn't really have a profile at the time are now like superstars in their own right how does that feel because that's quite a cool legacy to have I think we were all like really

young and really like determined and really wanted to like take up space and like make amazing things. And just I don't know, that was like very much like a DIY kind of attitude, right? Where you make these amazing, amazing projects without having much money or budget or no money and no budget, you know. But it was just there was a real drive from everyone, I think, to, yeah, to contribute to, I guess, the creative landscape, specifically, I guess, the media landscape in the UK. And it's been like a beautiful thing to witness everyone kind of like grow together, you know, so many of my close friends I've kind of started on that journey with and we look back at ourselves and we kind of laugh at where we were fondly. But yeah it's beautiful to see to see that

transition do you think creating something like that sometimes you have to be 21 with no resources to find the energy to fire yeah definitely because you lose not that you lose it a bit but i think the i think life becomes really complicated and responsibilities grow and you have to think about more people than yourself and I think when at 21 you kind of don't know some people do but you don't necessarily generally speaking have to do that so I think yeah there's a lot more energy I think also when you're like figuring things out for the first time when you're stepping out into the world for the first time it's like very easy to be instantly very angry about everything and like want to change everything and like that

youthful kind of like naivety about the world I think is a really useful thing to getting things done and like and off the ground and I guess just having like a lack of fear of failure because also it doesn't really matter if it does fail at least you tried right you know I mean nothing is forever but at least you gave it a shot so um so yeah it definitely was the that 21 year old energy was a real thing because I found that as I got older there's so many things that I did when I was younger and I just went for it and now I really can't seem to find that within me anymore I'm so much more self-conscious I got really scared about doing things like you said that fear of failure is so much greater um and you said to me before that

when you first started Jing galdam as much you loved it and as incredible as it was and the world that you created from that was amazing you felt like people maybe didn't know who you were i don't think anyone knows who i am really i think i think my friends know who i am and i think people that i actually have like i know like i don't mean beyond having beyond having just worked with like you know who I actually sit down and talk about the things that we just like in life but I think yeah I don't think anyone really knew who I was but also in that I think in that period of my life I was not playing a role but the role was like to to to make this thing work or to or to to to drive it forward like from a business sense and all the rest of it but it wasn't it wasn't

about my necessarily my creative ambitions on like an I guess on a personal level because it was more of a like it was a collective kind of effort but yeah I think every I think people have like an idea of who maybe you are and like yeah what means. And then that's not necessarily true because you only get one side of someone online or through what someone else says or whatever else. So I think this period in my life now where I'm like stepping out and I'm like making my own creative work and I'm just like really feeling a lot more, a lot more brave and a lot more confident in in my own voice I think this is when people are really going to start to get to know and to understand me um because there were so many things that I was processing even in that period of running out and I lost my stepdad obviously I ended up losing my dad last year I've been through so many mental health crises I burnt out so much I was suicidal I was stressed but like on the surface

it was very like shiny and like I knew how to like perform what it was that I felt was needed to to make this thing work it wasn't really about yeah I don't know and and no no one told me to do that but I think that's the responsibility that I felt was to have to have my shit together and I like really didn't have my shit together I did at a point but I lost it at a point I guess how did you feel when you felt like people were not necessarily on purpose but were misunderstanding you is that something that you you felt a want to correct or you kind of just let it happen and work I think I was telling everyone use your voice be confident in your voice like be bold be brave and I was really like just starting to find it impossible to speak my own truth so that was really like

jarring um and I think that's why like my mental health suffered so much you know and there were moments when I just like I really wanted a break but I didn't and I'd just be fun like thinking all these like very scary kind of things and and and not feeling myself and feeling like the only way you know it was just not a good place but again I think like it the way of my style of working the intensity the like non-stopness of it the obsession the like carrying work with me into every hour like those were conditions that I that I created for myself no one told me to do that but I felt like I had to do that because I wanted this thing to succeed which is like when you look back on it it's like whoa but I think again I was young and it was my

first foray into the world of like properly into the world of work. So you don't balance boundaries, like self-care on like a really deep level, understanding who you are and what you need. I think I didn't have it yet. Had you always been an overachiever though? I feel like you got a first in your degree and like you're really clever. And so I guess that's an identity as well that you carry with you.

And then, so especially if you've always been like that, it's very hard to suddenly be like, actually, I'm just going to do this to the best of my ability, but keep something back for me. It's probably not in your nature. No, it wasn't. And I've been like that it's very hard to suddenly be like actually I'm just going to do this to the best of my ability but keep something back for me yeah it's probably not no it wasn't it wasn't and I've been like that like my friends always joke because I I had a job from the age of 14 and I was always working and like my best friend was like yeah you just every time we had like a summer holiday you were like doing an internship or like you were like working or you were doing something and that was me and it wasn't like it's because there were

things I was really interested in I was really passionate in and I really wanted to like and I wanted to learn more about and I wanted to get practical experience understanding like what that looked like and what that meant so yeah I think like I think definitely from my like 1920s I was like super intense and like everything that I did I think my teenage years were probably my most carefree where I didn't really care and I was going out and partying and like having loads of fun but by the time I went to uni I was not that girl and people were kind of just starting to go out and I was like been there done that like actually you know I'm ready I'm ready to to kind of go in so yeah and I even remember my first like my first one of

my first internships that I did I actually it was like I think it was a paid for like research role whatever but um I remember Margie the woman that hired me this is a woman refugee woman she was like you were so in you came in and you were like you're gonna hire me basically and it was like very that you know and I even remember just emailing a million people at that time in my life and being like I like your film was great like how about having me come and like spend some time with you I was just really bold and intense as I said and yeah I definitely then carried that through into into the you know that period of like pushing Galdem and raising investment and like trying to make things happen um and i think that energy was really useful to a point i think it's just you can't

live like at that at that on that on the edge forever like there's a there's gonna be a moment when your body's like listen hun you need to rest this isn't good how did that burnout manifest for you because i feel like that's a term that we've got more familiar with more recently, but it kind of now is bandied about. Yeah, yeah. I felt really depressed and really low all of the time. I used to fantasize about just like getting sick or getting injured so that I could stop

because I couldn't understand that I could just stop. I was like, something has to happen for me to be able to stop because I can't, because people will be angry, because I'll disappoint everyone, because I'll, and it's like this spiral. And then like other periods, it was like, I just had no energy left in me.

And I'd just be like a heap crying on the floor, just like, and then it got to the point where I was like, the only way that I'm gonna stop feeling this low is if I don't exist. And that's when it got really scary. And it was like, after the first second third burnout this is not a place that you want to be in and I've got you know great friends and I've got a great partner but that was a really scary time for me but it's also a really scary time for her so I don't I don't recommend going

at that level and waiting until you get to a point when you're like so low to to to kind of look after yourself but yeah that's that's where I and that's not to say I had an awful life and and I there was no joy in it but like you know I'd be I'd be lying if I said that it wasn't also really hard was it were you able to immediately kind of pinpoint that it was this just like overarching pressure of overachieving that was causing this or would did it take you able to immediately kind of pinpoint that it was this just like overarching pressure of overachieving that was causing this or would did it take you a bit of time to like crap it's actually this thing that I'm plugging my energy and that's making me feel this way yeah I think I knew for a long time that work was making me unwell but I think I didn't know

what to do because it was like you know this is something that you've started and like you want to see it to get to a certain point before you like hand over the reins and like put a better infrastructure in place and have more money and all these things that are really hard to do with like an independent media platform like it's so tough and I was on like 20 something 20k or something like that my last year as CEO like it's it's not like a it's not a job that you do because you like trying to get rich so I think it was it was just lots of things just not knowing and like yeah putting yourself in a position where you don't know and where you feel like you have to figure a lot of stuff out on your own which is

like actually not the case and when I started to like express to some of my close friends and like mentors and stuff they were like you don't have to do anything forever like it's actually okay you've put in a lot of time and that's actually fine if like and we're worried about you and my girlfriend was really scared and it was kind of like and there were and there were other things I also wanted to try with my life, but I needed to like, I needed to just slow down first. I went, I applied to do an MA and like there were other things going on. And I was also in and out of hospital appointments with my dad.

We didn't know what was wrong with him. So it was just like a lot of stuff. But yeah, definitely like, you know, I had my key people to kind of like pull me out of that kind of scary place. I think it's so useful to talk about because as you say people see all of your successes all of your accolades from a really young age you're kind of doing incredible things but often that does come with the price and I feel like a lot

of the time especially this kind of like hustle culture that we're living through people don't necessarily talk about how much you can sacrifice and how dangerous it can be to kind of chase these levels of success that more and more people especially want to get to like before 30 or there's all these like really rudimentary numbers around when we should be achieving things and and very often actually what you're not seeing is like this side you're talking about which is like it's really tough yeah and and everyone goes through it everyone that I know that's like set something or has done anything that like everyone goes through it and everyone gets to a point it's usually after like five years where

they're like I'm so tired and like I need to prioritize my own well-being and I love this thing so much and it's so important to me but I'm more important to me and it's like getting to the point where you can say I'm more important to me, that, you know, it can take time. And those are all loving, caring, kind people, you know? But it just, yeah. And also like how ridiculous that whatever, in your 20s you think that this is the thing that you're going to do forever

or like that you should do forever. I mean, no, like we go through so many different periods and stages in our life and the energy and the time and the resource that you have to be able to act in your it and accept that nothing is the same always and like to trust a little bit that like things will be okay it's not an easy thing for me to do as a bit of a control freak but um but it's an important thing to be able to do and those are lessons that I'm like finally kind of carrying with me. And it took 29 to see some of those things and to prioritize the right things. And, you know, life is really beautiful.

And it's just I want to lean into that as much as possible. Be grateful for the lessons that you've learned, the people that I've met, the work that I've done and with the team that I did it with. And also be like cool great it's like a new era and that's fine so I feel like you were talking about how your dad got sick and your your work was like really overwhelming you and you were living in London and then now we've come fast forward you really sadly lost your dad you've moved out of London you change your work and your life is kind of completely I guess just slowed in so many different ways yeah how much of that like losing your father

which I know is like obviously it's traumatic for everyone but I know that you it's really deeply difficult period for you how much of that does that kind of shift the way that you look at the world and the way that you approach things oh it changes it so much like I remember when my step dad was sick and he said to me this is like six years ago now and he said you know don't let work be the most important thing in your life because he worked so hard a million hours like he loved what he did he was like a top nerd and he was like super good at it but it was like too much and I remember he said that and that always kind of sticks with me it took her five years breakdowns real depressive moments to realize that like that's not the only thing

that's I guess it was so tied up in like my value and my self-worth it was like I you know the reason why people care about me is because of this thing or the reason why I'm is because of this thing and it's like no it's not it's because you're you and all the rest of it and then I think with my dad I just was like it's a very deep and confronting journey to be on with someone when they know they're gonna die you know and they're and they're looking into that and they're reflecting on life and my dad was a very sensitive kind loving person and like I'm so grateful that I was there able to hold his hand through that like very challenging period and that we had each other

and it's just like I'm just I'm watching him die and I'm watching him go through that and I can't help but feel like the things that are important are love the my friends my family my partner like living a nice life like and and and, and like not killing yourself, like because of, because of work or trying to find the right balance, but just really like, I think it's a reminder that like the amount of time that we have here is, is finite. And why would I live my life in fear or because of something I've concocted in my head that I must do or whatever actually I think it just was a reminder that my life is mine and it's up to me to choose how I want to how I want to live it and I think that's been very freeing a very freeing space to be in a very hard space

in terms of the journey itself and also you know when you go through those things and you're up close and personal and you're watching people go through this transition into the next phase of the life, the end of their life, it's like, I don't know, even like, he dealt with it and he was so scared, but he also, he never like lost like the essence of who he was you know he was still a kind compassionate person that would say thank you to every um to every nurse and person that would be there in the hospital helping him and really he meant it and he was just a sweet man and I'm like yeah and I'm a very sensitive person just like my dad he was so sensitive like and I'm so sensitive I carry everything with me which is also why certain jobs I just can't do and I just think yeah I you can't not be completely utterly changed by feeling like the depth of heartbreak and hope and loss and all of the things that surface when you're losing someone so close to you and that you and that you love and and I think I I lead with my

heart and and I this next chapter I want to connect with people through my work through my writing through sharing like a piece of my heart with other people whether that's through novel writing or through tv but also it's just about connecting with people in a space that has nothing to do with work you know like the you go to things in London and often so often the question is like what do you do and it's like you know moving out of the city and like rewiring that part of my brain and just it not being about that it being like do you want to go for a swim in the sea or like you know those things have been really special but yeah I'm deeply changed by the loss of my dad I'm still in a lot of pain I still feel a lot of love I still

you know I miss him it was hard and it was painful and there's still trauma around just seeing that process because it was hard and being in it with him but but yeah it's taught me so much about the fact that we have one life and it's ours you know know? So, and there was so much pain, I think that he'd experienced in his life and things that he wasn't able to work through. And I could see that still surfacing at, you know, when he was kind of coming close to his final days. And I was just like, wow, that's a lot.

I really want to make sure I work through and process my things now. And being in therapy and working through stuff that's a lot I really want to make sure I work through and process my things now um and being in therapy and working through stuff was a really important um part of that but it's it's hard and it's hard but it's important it was an important moment to be there for and maybe I wouldn't have had the same space to be there for him had I not been making some of the shifts that I was in my life because I was really there it was me and him in it together you know he didn't have a partner it was me and him all the appointments all of the stuff doing things with the parent that you don't necessarily

envision that you're gonna do um so yeah I learned all that to say I learned a lot yeah that was honestly like so beautiful the way you speak is just amazing and yeah thank you for sharing that because that is just gorgeous. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. I want to kind of talk again more about this, kind of, I guess, becoming more in tune with yourself, trying to block out that noise of, like you said, the city and people being like, what are you doing? What are you doing next? Especially this, like, I used to have a massive fear of laziness. Like I have to be doing stuff all the time. And then you're like, oh my God, this is just capitalism is so imbued in my brain that I can't.

I couldn't just like sit down and have a cup of tea I had to be doing like five things at once to be able to enjoy the other thing I'm really fascinated to know how much of literally moving out of London that goes is it is it London or is it society at large I mean it's yeah it's London it's how we're wired it's all of that kind of stuff and it takes time and I think it's an adjustment when you're used to being at one pace like I was like can I live by the sea like this is mad and I don't know was this the right decision I absolutely was the right decision but I think um yeah the conditions the conditions that people live in in London the space that they have and don't have like all of these things it doesn't encourage you to to sit

with yourself and like to take time and to make space or I guess you just have to work not that it's not possible I think you just have to work harder at it maybe like when you're out of the city and you look at the sea and you're reminded of how small you are in this like big big nature in this big big world it can it can ground you and I don't know if there's like I don't know if there are enough things to kind of ground me in London you know I think you have to really really search but then that's when you're really like enlightened probably when you're able to find absolute peace in a city that's quite chaotic and I love London I love South London that's my place I wrote a book set in South London it's like has my heart and I enjoy coming back to it

but I also enjoy stepping away and like feeling and being in nature and that's always been something that I've loved like throughout my whole life I used to go camping when I was younger I used to go to the Peak District and Lake and all of this sort of stuff so I think yeah me moving me moving out the city was great for that and like it helped me but it was also it wasn't just the location I was also in therapy and doing like all of these other things to rewire my brain the way I viewed myself the way I viewed the world the way I viewed my self-worth you know the way I view the things that I valued and that I saw as being super um important but it's just like continual work just being an adult is like continuously going through

stuff and just like it's hard it's great it's hard and like you're literally just working and working at it and but yeah being by the sea um and like therapy and um love and friends and food and all of those good things they help can we talk about stepping away from galdom because i feel like that must have been such a big choice to make because like you said and and what's beautiful is you stepped away and then like you said you had all this room to grow and you filled up that space and actually it was an amazing thing to do but sometimes I think that choice of moving on from something when you've outgrown it or you've shape-shifted away from it can be one of the hardest things to do yeah I think it wasn't that hard because I I mean it was like look it was hard because it's something that I felt like

I was very tied up in but it was also not hard because like my body was telling me that I could like that I needed I needed to do something else and that I think my creative brain also needed a new challenge and like to work in a different way and so and I think I'd known for a few years I was ready to not be doing it so I think I had known for a while it wasn't it wasn't like a shock to the system and actually because I immediately stepped away and immediately ended up caring for my dad I didn't even really have a chance to breathe and to process it I'm probably processing all of those things now as I've just lost him and I'm now you know where I am in life so it was all like in I just sometimes I'm just like ha like the universe are you kidding me like it's from you know one one thing to another but

like I said I wouldn't have necessarily had the time and space to be like my dad's care and be with him. And I not made those decisions and those steps. But I didn't have any, I don't feel like I had like an identity like crises kind of moment. I think I was, I think I knew what I wanted to do.

I knew that I wanted to write. I knew that I wanted to storytell and I just hadn't had the capacity to like to feed that part of my brain because running a business is like is a full-time plus some job you know it's not one that I found I think some people probably do I didn't find it easy to like switch off or have boundaries with it so I was ready and I channeled that readiness into writing alongside obviously the other responsibilities that I had at the time but that my I was like ready to go and like my agent was like my writing agent Abby he's amazing

was like it's your time to tell your story like what is it that Liv wants to say and I was like yeah what what do I want to say I want to take some time and figure that out so it was just exciting honestly I was like it was exciting and I think I felt I felt I felt like I'd contributed a lot and I and there was enough there to be proud of and I also felt relieved to be kind of stepping into this you know this new chapter so it was good how how did the story how did Rosewater to come to you was it very natural was it like was it brimming at the seams you just had to get it down or was it a process that was it did it shape shift in any way yeah it didn't shape shape shift massively i think the first time i tried to write a novel it was like

really rubbish and it wasn't coming from a natural place and i was trying to write that this version of this with this and this right and when i kind of and and i was still working full-time and it was you know like so you need time and space like as a creative person to sit live breathe with ideas think about the characters in the bath like you need those you need that down time um and so I think when I had when I started to have that and I was you know it it yeah it it kind of came to me I went and stayed um in like my friend's mom's friend's garden she had like a little room in the garden and I just wrote and wrote and wrote and like it was just it just came wow um it just came and there were themes and topics and ideas and things that I you know that that it that was there and

the characters are really vivid and I felt them and it was like, oh wow, like this feels so good to get this down on paper, you know? It felt amazing. It felt, it felt, yeah, it just felt so good to write. And now, and then I did like a BBC, I was like one of their writers in residence and I worked on like a scripted project and I was like, oh my gosh, this is the thing. I was like, I've always loved fiction the most. I've always loved drama the most and like connect with this way of storytelling and I find it very freeing. I don't feel scared in a way

that maybe I think I would in like the factual space. I feel like I can just say what I wanna say and I can present characters and let people feel about them how they wanna feel about them. And it's a little insight maybe into how I see the world or the things that are important but it just is so fun and I'm like loving it I've got so many ideas and I think I was blocked for like I had been quite blocked for a long time so yeah it all just was like ready to come out how do you because I love all the characters in Rosewater and I can think of them so vividly and i i think it's beautiful but but like how have you are you

okay to leave them do you feel like you want to tell more of their story like what well i'm writing like a short story like at the moment for i've just been commissioned to write a short story which is like maggie like a bit more of maggie's story which is really fun i was writing that on the train on the way here and i'm really enjoying that and then the book has also been optioned so I'm hoping that I'll get to like delve even more into into who all of they who all of them are um because yeah I'm like there's they're so rich and like this is very much Elsie's story and told through her lens so I think it would be really fun to to step into the other characters worlds and minds and like get to know them a bit better because yeah, I love all of them

and they're all so dynamic. And it was really important to me that it was like, there was like an intergenerational like kind of storytelling that was going on as well, especially between different generations of like queer women. That was like something that kind of came through

in the book and the characters and the ways that they interacted with each other. And so, yeah, I'm just like like this is from my heart and this is real and this is like a manifestation of my love for so many different people and things in the ways that I see the world and like and also just on the complicated nature of love you know which is like a very real thing so yeah I think once they started to flow they started to flow and it felt really good i completely agree with what you're saying about fiction and i think we went through a weird phase as a society where everyone's kind of got really into like like you

said like factual stuff podcasting everyone wants to learn it was like fiction kind of got put to the side whereas i've always loved fiction the most i think you learn the most through fiction yeah because like in rosewater there are so many themes there's so many things you talk about but it's not like you're being like right we're gonna cross all of these subsections of intersectional families it's just the characters of people who have lots of stories to tell and yeah that comes through naturally by virtue of who they are where they live what they think and people's lives are really complicated so it's not a case of like like oh yeah i'm not i of course there were there were there were things that i wanted to touch on

with the book but I never you know I never want you to read something that I've written and feel like I'm telling you how you must feel I want you to just sit with and feel and move through the world through another person's kind of perspective and deduce from that what you will and you might think Elsie's like a dickhead at points because she can be and you might also like feel for her on her journey and you might also like be so frustrated with her and you might also find this person annoying and someone else might not and you might see yourself in and that's like that's the beauty of just writing characters who are hopefully fully formed and dynamic and complicated yeah no I absolutely loved it also is the juice bar where they do the poetry thing the one on Brixton Hill no it was no it was based on one it was based on one in Camberwell that I don't know if it's

still there that's so funny because in my head I was like it's so clearly I can't think what it's called and I was like I wonder if it's there no no it was one on Camberwell High Street yeah and like there was like the Vietnamese that they go to is also was also kind of modeled after one that I used to love going to and like um and the roti shop again that's modeled after like a guy needs roti shop in herne hill and so there they were like and i love being able to put those details in and if you're from south yeah and i used to live in stratham hill so i was trying to think about where yeah whether fine that was made up was that really random bar that's the down stratham high road there we can say that um it was a really weird

like themed bar and i could imagine that oh my gosh really yeah that's so funny okay fine i know i love things that yeah i love that and like even the like the reference the culture references the kind of like music the book club that the like she goes to a night of like erotic readings that like my friend runs this book club called prim black and they do stuff like that my friend makes this amazing like sustainable underwear l bras and like juliet wears those and we're talking about like making like a cute like rose water set and stuff and like so it just was like but all of these things were really organic and natural parts of my life that i could see how different characters would have interacted with them so that was fun that is really fun

how much did you feel like um i know this is everyone always asks women this question about like how much of them is you but i think that's what i love about fiction the reason i'd love to write fiction is what is it norah affron that says all memoir is fictional fiction is memoir because it basically gives you the freedom to explore like all of your insideness without it being you yeah you could put little pockets of you and kind of every character spread it really thin and like exactly and little pockets of different people and things or you know conversate or whatever in in in different in different people and i'm like you know definitely elsie's not me elsie's really cool

elsie's really you know like elsie's a girl that you know the kind of girl that would have broken my heart because i love a poet but it was like she does sound really hot yeah really hot and I think B's also really sexy as well yeah and like that's fun because um with B like she wasn't necessarily going to be as like integral to the story and when I sent like a few of my friends the first few chapters they were like who is she yeah she's great yeah and I was like okay noted you know um so yeah it was just fun how can you not like it was great and even the million rounds of edits were great like I but then you get to talk to people about the minutiae of detail in the story and like why did you make that choice and I was like I knew oh you saw it in that way like I'm loving having

those conversations especially now that people have read the book I'm like it's great like I don't know I just feel really I feel so happy that I get to like get paid to write things and like invent worlds and characters and like tell the stories that I want to tell and like hopefully some of those get made and but either way it feels just really good to put pen to paper that's so nice and it's so nice to arrive at that point especially when you've having gone through all of that difficulty and trauma and stress and then suddenly feel like you've come into a clearing and it's like oh my god yeah i've arrived like i feel really good i just feel really free i feel really happy like i feel of course i'm still grieving and i'm in i'm very much still in that you know it's been less than a year but I also feel just the deep sense of joy and hopefulness for like what this next chapter is gonna

gonna look like with me with my part with life with all of these things so um yeah life is actually mad sometimes I'm like whoa like a lot has happened in you know since 20 21 year old me but yeah I've learned a lot for sure it's like it feels like it was like a crash has happened in you know since 20 21 year old me but yeah I've learned a lot for sure it's like it feels like it was like a crash course in a very intense 20s a very grown-up adult kind of 20s when I was still in my 20s so yeah how do you feel you said that you struggle with like wanting to control things and wanting to know but I guess do you think now that you're you've been through so much you kind of are trying to let go and not think too far ahead when it comes to like your future timelines is that something you're trying to let go of it definitely definitely I have things that I really want to do like you

know I really want to write like a feature and like all of this stuff but I just think you sit with a lot of these things and it takes time and like an idea might spark up here and it might not be surface for 10 years like I think that's kind of the beauty of the of the creative process also I'm like very green in this new part of my career again so I probably have that like a weird I've kind of come full circle but it is just exciting right now and I'm sure there'll be a lot more moments when things feel a lot more frustrating and you'd be knocking at the same because it's a hard industry right and telly and all of that sort of stuff but um but right now it just feels like good and exciting and I think I did my first writer's room like a couple of months ago and it was like being the new one in that space was amazing can you say what

you're writing on um it was like it was like a development room for like a show so yeah with like a few other writers and then it just was like I was like the baby and I was like I love being I don't have to be the one who's making all the decisions or anything I'm here to like learn to contribute and that is kind of where it is and that felt so good how much is that experience like writer's dreams that we see on tv and like America shows because we don't really have writer's dreams over here in the same way that they do in the US do we I mean because I've only done one and it was a development I think it's I think that they can from what I've heard I think some of them are really intense some of them are more gentle I think it just depends on the like on the space but this one was really like it was a really lovely

and the people that were in it were really smart and it was just a really lovely first foray into that and we'll see how I feel in a year's time when I've done like four more or whatever but I think yeah it was just it was just great and and like I said baby in the room but it feels good I'm like this next chapter and also 30s onwards I'm just like so excited for like freeing myself of some of that responsibility just like yeah I just I feel light I feel like I've got energy and I feel like who knows where I'll be where I'll live what I'll be doing but it just feels like everything is possible at the moment I also think you have this weird thing when you're when you're in your early 20s especially where

every kind of everything you do has this extra out and she's so young and I actually think it's going to be quite a relief when you don't have to be like oh actually no I'm at an age where now I'm not it's not because i'm super young that's impressive i've just worked really hard to get here because they feel like that forbes 30 under 30 and all of that like kind of all of these things that happen pre-30s but with work there's this extra layer and she was only everyone's oh she was so young and then i actually think i kind of want that to go away because that's kind of annoying after a while you kind of want to be like oh I'm just a normal woman now yeah yeah he's just working I have job I'm in my woman era

like yeah my grown woman era and yeah exactly I think yeah that's always that's always such a I knew at this age but then I am also like it's useful sometimes to reference that because I was very young and like and like it was it it was young to be doing some of the things that I was doing. Maybe, I don't know, it felt like, because you don't know what you're doing. Maybe that was also a good thing. But definitely the weight that is placed upon that as like a beacon of like, oh, so amazing is like such bullshit. And actually, I think I look at like my mum, my auntie, they're both like in their late 50s. And like they both retrained, changed their careers when they were 50

so I'm like why would I be stressing it my auntie was working at Amnesty and then she retrained to become a midwife and my mum was working like in the third sector helping young people set up businesses and then she went and did an upholstery course because she loves interior design and like what and they had like young kids at the time and like the stakes were high I'm like at me at 20 something why am I going to stress about like leaving behind something that I started when I was 21 or like stepping into a new phase of my career like we have such a I mean hopefully fingers crossed this this lifespan where we can try out so many different things and if they can do it I'm not going to stress about like come on that's how i'm trying to start

looking at life as like it can be in chapters like you said i think we always want to have anything neatly tied up in a bow by the time we hit a certain age it's like this is the person i'm going to be with forever this is where i'm going to live this is the job i'm going to have and actually like especially i've seen from like relationships moving like things change and they might change every three to five years maybe they will be the same for 10 years but this idea that we want this like stability is actually i think can be really dangerous but like what happened with you is when you try to hold on to something too much and everything else around you is moving you just end up so stressed yeah exactly be free be free I'm not you know young I don't have like I had I had in a way a dependent in the last two

years with my dad because he I like financially and also in terms of care but I don't really don't have that in my life yet so I'm just like I can I may who will I will I not I don't know but either way yeah everything is possible right now right we should just be living our lives babe I agree yeah so is there anything else you need to promote as points in the direction of or just apart from obviously Rosewater which is out 20th april 20th of april rosewater is out so please do pre-order um and enjoy hopefully are you doing the audiobook uh no my partner's doing the audiobook so she like she actually she's got like a background in acting and like theater and stuff um and so it's dedicated to her and it felt like a hundred percent appropriate and right that she'd be the one to read it so she's hundred percent appropriate and right that she be the one

to read it so she's recording it at the moment that's so sweet does she smile like rosewater so she used to wear rosewater and i forgot and then when i titled the book she was like you know i used to and i was like shit yeah and then i remember the time when i'd done something to piss her off and like my apology was that i that i um that i made rose water from scratch as in like with the lead like it was a whole process and like left her a bottle with a note and like i'm i'm i don't know some weird romantic that's so sweet but it must have been in the subconscious subconscious and i didn't even realize and then it was like the yeah and then and then and then and and then it just worked with the book and it it so happened to be that that was what happened.

But yeah, that wasn't like a deliberate process, but it feels really beautiful given those things that she's so involved in the process. And it's collaborative as well because who's the poet that you've got? So Kai, they're like a friend of mine as well. And like, I could only, so there are like, I think it's four kind of key,

four poems in the book. And after I'd written the book, I then kind of went in and was like, I'm going to write the poems. I'm not a poet. It wasn't cute. But also when I had envisioned Elsie as a character reading poetry, it was like in Kai's voice. It was Kai. It was Kai's sensibility, Kai's tone. And so that was a really fun process.

We did a lot of back and forth and voice notes. And I was like, I want this poem to be about this and to cover a bit of this and like what's your interpretation on this and um they wrote one poem on Pepperpot which is like a dish that my nan makes about Elsie's nan making Pepperpot um and it's like one of the most beautiful poems that captures like what this dish kind of represents and like in terms of their bond in terms of heritage and history and all that sort of stuff and it terms of heritage and history and all that sort of stuff and it made me cry and all and the rosewater poem as well like there's just there are so many moments that are just so yeah that that they just got it completely right so it

feels gorgeous kai sahela like them being a part of the process. Yeah, it's been honestly, it's been an amazing first experience. I think even like being published by Charmaine, who I met on a train like six years ago by chance in South London and then being published by John Legend and his team is like mega as well. It's been like kind of unbelievable,

but I'm also like, oh, I did also work really hard to to get this book to a great stage and also just in general so I feel like I've landed in really really safe hands and I don't take that for granted that's so nice that you feel like you've you've kind of managed to get through the imposter syndrome you're like actually I've learned this yeah I'm like my up until like I was in I was away like up until the end of January my therapist was like you just have to start accepting like compliments and not getting all weird about it and I'm like so now I'm just kind of I'm trying to be more like yeah like you

did do things and like it's okay to say that and it's not doesn't make you a horrible like bad person because you say I worked hard or I did this thing it's like you did so i'm really trying to affirm those things for myself good for you and as you shared and all the bits about food made me salivate so much it was so good the sex the food yeah oh and the sex what was the thing you posted someone's story they were like i've cried a mic like three times yeah yeah i'm like that's actually all i really wanted yeah it was really good yeah i forgot no it's it all i really wanted yeah it was really good yeah i forgot no it's it's honestly such a good book i absolutely raced it so everyone definitely needs to pre-order it thank you um thank you so much for chatting to me

and your gorgeous home like it's beautiful i've seen it i've been like stalking it online does it look the same online i always wonder that because you know sometimes people post but i post like certain angles of things no I recognize like these bubbles in this giraffe I saw the should we put bubbles should we not put bubbles fuck it I've done the bubbles like I've seen all of it and I'm loving it it's really nice to be here I think it's a really it's a beautiful thing to do in your home on your sofa it feels really intimate which is probably also why and I've no we don't know each other very well right but I've but but I've known of you for a

long time and we spoke I did the podcast with Charlie have many years ago so it just feels really like beautiful and full circle to be sitting here and that's probably why I was so open as well because it feels really good yeah yeah being vulnerable I do feel like we feel so much more grown up than that first time yeah literally like it wasn't actually that long ago but I feel like we were kids it must be like four or five years but like in the grand scheme of things that's not like that long really fine fine but i do feel like we're women now yeah we are we're like figuring some shit out we've been through all the all of these transitions and like losses of different forms as well right so yeah this is special so thank you for having me thank you so much for

coming on and thank you everyone for listening. I will see you next week. Bye. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino.

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