Adulting - Adulting 2.0: Poorna Bell

Episode Date: March 19, 2023

Hey Podulters! Welcome to Adulting 2.0: The Timelines.Poorna Bell is an award winning journalist, author and public speaker and specialises in women's issues, diversity, fitness and mental health.In this episode we talk dating, how timelines are nonsense, getting off the relationship escalator, feeling comfortable in your age, turning 40 and so much more.Poorna's novel 'In Case of Emergency' is out in paperback on March 30th.I hope you enjoy, and as always please do rate, review and subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hello, poddlters. I hope you're well. In this week's episode, I speak to author, journalist and public speaker, Padna Bal. Padna's work specializes in women's episode, I speak to author, journalist and public speaker, Purna Bal. Purna's work specializes in women's issues, diversity, fitness and mental health. And we talk about dating, aging, learning to be yourself and so much more. I absolutely love speaking to Purna and I hope you enjoy the episode. As always, please do rate, review and subscribe.

Happy listening. Bye. do rate review and subscribe and happy listening bye you told me when you arrived at my door and i immediately went oh my god you look unbelievable because it's like nine o'clock in the morning ten o'clock whatever time is and you said you're taking yourself out on a date day and i love this idea when did this start for you i decided to do this about i want to say a couple of years ago when I actually saw someone else post about it on Instagram and I thought oh my god that's a genius idea because I I definitely am someone who spends time by myself and you know over the years I've done a lot of solo travel but I've never really intentionally taken myself out on a date and by that I mean like so for me there's a ritual, you know, attached to it, which is that I will dress in a certain way, you know, in something that I think

I look good in, I'll do my face, I will plan food is also always a massive part of it. So I'll plan where I'm going to eat. And I'll usually do something like maybe go to a gallery or maybe, you know, go and do a bit of shopping. the one rule that I have is that I can't be on whatsapp or I can't be on my phone too much during the day because otherwise it just really takes me out of the moment but I I love doing it it really really fills my cup how do you do you listen to things that because when I first started taking myself up for meals I found it really hard to do it without like a book or a podcast are you completely au natural or do you have something form of like no I usually I usually will have a book with me so for example if I'm doing the date thing yeah I will definitely

have a book with me or I will just be observing what's going on around me but if I do let's say solo travel I'll always have my phone on me yeah you know you've got to be done so I love that and I know that you're in a new, happy relationship, more new-ish. And you've been single for a while. How much have you taken from that like, or period where you weren't in a serious relationship? How many things have you taken into this relationship? Are you trying to keep like those pockets of doing things to yourself, even now that you're like coupled up? Yeah, we're both people who I think are very

self-sufficient and fairly unconventional I would say so the the the person that he is and the person who I am now is we we match each other and we balance each other out and it's definitely you know not the kinds of qualities that I would have gravitated towards in a person or even what I would bring to a relationship is is 100 percent not the same that I would have done, you know, probably in my 20s and in my early 30s. And I think that definitely throughout my 20s, the energy I sort of brought to every relationship, apart from obviously good banter, was that I just expected this relationship to fill a void inside of me and I expected this relationship to make sense of who I was and I think the way that I view things now is very much and I know that my partner feels the same way about what a relationship should involve is that the other person basically amplifies your life. So what exists and what is currently there is something that you generate and you build yourself and it's filled with the

things that give you joy in life. And I'm not saying it's always, you know, sunshine and rainbows, but fundamentally it's a life that you like living filled with choices that you have proactively made for yourself versus a lot of my 20s, which I felt was very much reactive and reflected by other people's choices. And so I think that the way that I view this is that, you know, there is definitely the person who I am, who he loves and vice versa. But also there's this element of growth as well. You know, there are things that I can learn from him. There are qualities that he brings out in me that I have capacity and I have space for and I'm generous enough around it

because I'm not always trying to shape myself into something that I think he will find pleasing. Or the way that in which I am loved is that I am loved for who I am and he's very proud of what I do versus me always in the past feeling as if there was a deficit in me and that deficit was something that the relationship had to rectify do you think that that's something that can like

I feel like I've I've learned that too because I've been somebody's had quite a few relationships and maybe I got that kind of like sooner than other people might but do you think it's something that really comes with age and that I think there's so many positives to be said for meeting someone like in your late 30s, in your 40s, when you're so much more settled as a person. And it seems interesting that we put so much pressure on to have your like person when you're much younger. Yeah. I mean, when I sort of unpick all of this stuff, because I'm really fascinated in, you know, why did I think a particular way or why did I make certain choices? And I do like to go back and see what the learning might be there, is that I don't blame us for feeling like that because the messaging around all of that stuff, which is also so heteronormative and it's so heterosexually focused,

is very much about that. It's very much this message that you need someone else to complete you. And yes, of course, we're having much broader conversations now that thank God are like helping to dismantle that, you know, but for a lot of us, that's the kind of environment that we grew up in, you know, depending, I guess, on what was also going on with your family or your parents, you probably saw a lot of that role models, you know, amongst you. And so I think that I definitely see people in their, you know, late 30s and 40s struggling with their love lives, like, don't get me wrong. And the two sort of big things that I see people grappling with is either

they haven't met someone, and they're worrying that they will never meet someone because, you know, it does get harder at certain points to date because different people might be in different relationships or whatever. Or you have people who are, for example, in long term relationships who are just not evolving in the same way. And there's a lot of kind of friction and conflict that comes up as a result of that. And so it doesn't it doesn't mean that, you know, because you're older, you have all of this wisdom and then you know what the right choices are to make. Like you still sometimes need something to bring you outside of your environment. And I think that in my case, I'm definitely not representative of that because, you know, my backstory was very unique and very different to a lot of my peers. You know, I was married when I was 30,

like actually when I was 30, and then my husband passed away when I was 34. And so the way that I am now and my approach to relationships, and to be honest, my approach to life has very much been shaped like that. And I don't think that anyone should have to ever go through that to learn those lessons or to have that clarity or to reprioritize what they're doing.

But in a way, actually, we did kind of have that with the pandemic, you know, we did have this like massive step change, this sort of real pause button that was pressed around figuring out what those things are that are important to you. But the unfortunate thing is, is about life is that it just, you know, once things come back to normal, unfortunately, people go back to what they know. And that's just being busy. And that's being on autopilot. And that's maybe not being as considered about what our choices are. And then, of course, there's the flip side of thing, things of, you know know just worrying about all of that time that we that we lost you know during that period so I think some people have definitely made different choices as

a consequence of you know that that sort of collective global trauma that came from the pandemic but I still I still feel that a lot of people have actually reverted back to type that was all really beautiful and I agree and I wanted to you've written quite like a lot and deeply and beautifully about the loss of your husband so I don't want to focus on it too much I know it's something that you've explored but in terms of like with timeline things I think that's such um it's such a catastrophic change to life to happen at such like a young age age and it really kind of you weren't expecting it and I guess it's one of those things that in life you can never predict especially when you're younger you can't imagine that you could lose a romantic partner when you're like

still in a really fertile point of your relationship you know you've been married for four years how did that kind of shift your timeline and and what has happened after that and and like how yeah I guess how did that impact the way that your adulthood sort of what has happened after that and and like how yeah I guess how did that impact the way that your adulthood sort of changed in a way that you I guess weren't imagining so I think that when I look back to you know definitely the early let's say the first year after he passed away I think a bereavement is very different for example to a divorce like they do share commonalities in that you are grieving the loss of your relationship and the loss of your future albeit in you know very different ways but there is an overlap there but I don't know whether for example with something

like divorce you then think about dating other people and I definitely know that when Rob passed away, that's just not really where my head was at. And a big part of that is obviously because it's a bereavement and, you know, there's just no, there's no recourse to that. You can't make up with someone, you know, and, and leading up to his death, he struggled a lot with addiction. And so the last couple of years of, of our marriage was very much about his recovery and about all of the stuff that was wrapped up in that. And towards the end of that, it was very, very apparent to me that, for example, something like having kids, we would just not be able to have kids together because his issues were great. And bringing a child into that we both knew was just not going to be an okay thing to do it would have been such a selfish thing for both of us to do and so in terms of like when you

look at things like timelines I already knew that even if like we managed to work through things and if we managed to save our marriage because at that time we were separated for, you know, the last three months of his life, that we were not going to be able to have kids and that our future would look very different to what we had originally thought it would look like. And then when he passed away, it wasn't so much like when we talk about timelines, it wasn't so much that I thought, oh gosh, you know, I need to get back on the timeline because that's just not in your thinking at all. It's not even in your, my perspective anyway. It's more about the dissonance between where every single other person in your life is because they're, they're sad. They've also lost a person, but it's not in the same way when it's your spouse. And so you're seeing everyone very rightfully so,

you know, getting engaged, having kids, getting married, like doing all the things you're supposed to do with your life if that's what you want. And you are in no position to even consider it. You know, like everything is so, it feels so not even, I wouldn't even use the word broken. You just, I just felt like I was not of this world. Like I did not belong here. It just nothing kind of really made sense to me. And I just didn't fit into any of that. And so I think that when I sort of was

coming out of this and I think for me, a very definitive thing was realizing that actually, you know what? I don't think I want kids and a big part of that is probably because I maybe felt like I should have them because that's the expectation and that was maybe what I originally thought you know when I first got married to Rob but I don't want kids and it's not a sad thing you know because I think sometimes people think that I lost my chance quote marks to have kids because he passed away. And that wasn't it at all. Like, I'm a very singular, bloody-minded person.

Like, if I wanted a child, I don't need someone else to have that child with, you know. And I would make that happen because I would be doing it for the right reasons to raise someone or give someone a home if, for example, you look at things like adoption. But that's just not what I wanted from my life. And I saw how amazing people were at parenting, and I was just like, I don't think I have that in me to give. I can paraparent other people's kids maybe and support them and be like an incredible auntie, but that's just not what I want from my life. And I think definitely when I look back at things like timelines,

you know, I, again, I totally understand why some of those timelines exist, you know, it would be completely disingenuous to say that, you know, for women, if you want to biologically have children, that there's not a timeline around that, of course there is. But there are other options, like there are, there are different options that exist out there, whether that's egg freezing, whether that's surrogacy, whether it's IVF, or whatever it it might be that give you a bit more time and space to consider things and also like really when you look at it who is the timeline based on and and I felt for example that I definitely remember feeling like oh my god but I need to I need to be married you know by the time I'm 30 and that being a a real thing. And I look back on that now,

and I'm just thinking, but why? You know, what was going to happen at 30? It's not like, you know, when you turn 100, and like the queen or the king gives you like a certificate, like there's just, you're literally working to your own, you know, your own timeline, whether that's your career, whether that's around like getting married, having kids, being in a relationship or whatever it is. And I just think that, I think it's a distraction and I think it's a construct. And I just don't know that it's very helpful because for me, for sure, I can tell you that the timelines absolutely influenced decisions that I made around certain things because I felt I needed to be in a particular place at a particular time. And the one thing that I will say in the last few years

is that it has been immensely freeing. And I know that we can go on, for example, to talk about, you know, the sort of aging and how you get older and the perception around that. But it has been very, very freeing to realize that there is no such thing as a timeline that you have to follow there's only your timeline of what you want to do and when you want to do things by I love all of that and this is kind of where this concept came from because I didn't I found myself like having a breakup in my late 20s people kind of commenting asking if I was okay that I was single when I was 28 and I was like what do you mean as if it's like the end of my life and I realized it made me suddenly become really hyper aware of all the conversations that I was having with women not very clearly not

with the men who are the same age as us who were like oh well I'll just think about it a bit later on or I'll just date someone way younger the all the girls in my life were kind of going like oh my god but do we need to like find someone now like do we need to have a baby and it made me suddenly in a good way realize that these these timelines that are just so programmed into our minds like you said don't make any sense and why are we following them and the only real tie to it all is that biological clock thing but I don't know I think that it's it's a really big thing to consider and then it was making me wonder maybe if I want to have children if that is something that I come to maybe I don't

necessarily need to force a relationship with someone if I'm not in love and I can't find someone I want to marry I could just co-parent with someone like there's there's ways that you can fit even if you do want to have kids there's ways you can fit around it and what I was realizing more and more is I think lots of us force ourselves into relationships or try to find that person and then later on it doesn't work out down the line so I completely go through what you're saying and I guess that's what this whole series is about is is finding power and realizing you can do things in your own way yeah I'm the reason why I feel so strongly let's say about representation of when we talk about voices of women of all age groups, right, or representation of women in general, and that being of all age groups, is because if the only people you're really talking to, and you're getting the opinions of are people your own age, there is zero perspective that you're going to have outside of that. So for example, my literary agent, who is also a friend of mine, Rowan, in her mid 30s, she had exactly that situation where she really wanted a child, she had not met the right person yet. And also,

it was just kind of one of those things of like, do I have a child or do I crowbar myself into a relationship to have a child and then you crowbar myself into a relationship to have a child? And then you've just got like a lot of other different types of problems that you have to contend with. And she's spoken about this publicly, but she had a child through a donor. And she is so happy, like the way that she has structured it is so, you know, her parents and her brother are very much part of that support system, you know, and she has made that decision that's right for her. And I think that very often we're trying to work towards the idea of how we thought it should look, you know, where you have the perfect partner, and then you have the perfect kids and life just doesn't work like that. And if you speak to people

of different ages of different age groups, for example, I think I was reading Isabel Allende's interview that Natasha Lunn did on Conversations on Love and she's I think in her 80s I want to say like if you speak to women in their 60s 70s and 80s like they've had multiple relationships at different points across you know the course of their lives so I completely understand that you know being 28 and panicking because you've invested so many years into this person and then it ends and you're just like, oh my God, I forgot to start from scratch. That's like so terrifying. And what if I never meet someone? But people do meet people over the years. You know, it's something that if you are the type of person who has been in a relationship,

it's like when you get made redundant from your job, like, you will get another job, you will be in another relationship. But I think I completely understand that fear that you you might not. And I also feel like, you know, especially, I mean, I can only understand it to a certain extent. But let's say, for example, with women and children, I do think that there are so many more options available to us like even when I think about compared to what they were for my mother's generation when they were of a similar age and you know of course like there are people who who can't have children it's incredibly sad but there's there's a middle ground there's an option there that I don't think really existed before and I think that it has allowed women to have a bit more time than

they may have done before I completely agree and also the thing you said is something I I so I wasn't that worried about it but it was my audience basically kept messaging me like are you okay how are you finding I was like I'm 28 that's so young you're talking really it made me confused because I feel very young actually and like in a way that that I also found confusing so I said am I when am I meant to get this like 30 year old feeling like when is that coming and I don't I just feel like I'm 16 and I have fallen in love so many times it seems to be like one of my greatest skills I seem to manage like it's something I don't I do believe there's lots of people out there and it but then it was interesting having these pressures that other people say you start

to like second guess and think oh my god maybe I should be worrying about this kind of thing. And you brought it up briefly then, and I wanted to talk about it, because I said to you before, it's really, I agree, it's really important that we speak to women who aren't in this bracket,

because, and I just did an episode yesterday, actually, with Kagi Dunlop, and she's 32, and she was saying how like, she was speaking to a friend, a guy,

and he said, oh, women who are like, between the ages of like 27 and 32, are so mental, was speaking to a friend a guy and he said oh women who are like between the ages of like 27 and 32 are so mental was the word he's something like that because that all they're thinking about is this like period of time and I think it's like the once you get beyond that sort of like window where people are looking at you I think men especially when they're dating think those kind of women are trying to like tie them down and I think it must be quite freeing when you get past that judgment but then you move into a new form of judgment which is people viewing you as suddenly like over the hill or whatever it is

so that that whole thing do you know what the relationship escalator is no okay so I was so fascinated about this because sort of a couple of years ago, I really started to deconstruct how I was going to date and the type of people that I was going to date. And it really just opened up, I think, for me in terms of the fact that you can literally set your own boundaries and you can set the type of relationship that you want to have. And it doesn't always have to be monogamous and it can be whatever it is that you want it to be. And it just completely pivoted dating for me into something that felt like a chore and then turned it into something that was really enjoyable. And during that time, I came across the relationship escalator, which was coined, I'm so sorry, my memory is terrible, but it was coined by someone about a decade ago.

And it's about the idea, which is exactly to your point, which is this thing that guys, you know, this perception that they have that we all must be, you know, dying to get into a wedding dress. And, oh my God, we're just looking for our next like baby daddy, is that there is this expectation that is underpinned by almost every single thing in our society, which is that you meet someone, you go on a date, you define the relationship, you then move in, you then get engaged, you then get married, you then have kids, and then you spend the rest

of your lives until one of you croaks. And literally that's it. And you can't take steps down on the escalator. So you can't then decide once you get married, you might want to live in separate houses. It's this very rigid, like upwards momentum. And you have to do all of these things. And anything that sits outside of that isn't really validated by society.

If you arrange your relationship in a different way, it's not validated. So when you look at that as a concept, of course, like the pressure is on women to make that happen, because you're told that you have to, you know, we have a greater pressure, for example, around like domestic success. And so, yes, I can completely see how we are pressured to feel as if like if you're in a heterosexual relationship, you have to having to pin the man down because we have to like get up on that escalator to make all of these goals happen in order for us to be seen as valued and as worthy in society. And when I read that, I was like, oh my God, you know, this is exactly what I was on. And any kind of choice that I made outside of that just was not really seen as an okay choice or a valid choice you know

in the same way that it would have been had I been on the escalator and so I think that for me definitely sitting outside of that because I've just basically stepped stepped off it and I'm just taking like a normal staircase which you can go up and down sideways whatever you want to do because I just don't it just doesn't work for me and and I think that while I can completely see how men will have certain men will have views of this or tropes that we have you know which I think haven't been helped by a lot of like 90s and early noughties rom-coms I just don't engage with it at all like there was a guy who came to my house to to do actually do the recording for a podcast a sound engineer and he was telling me how all the women

his age were like baby mad and how he thought that he wasn't ready now but he wanted to wait a few years and travel and do his own thing he was in his late 30s and then when the time was right for him he would find a younger woman to have children with. And there was so much I wanted to say to him, but I just thought, you're not worth it. I'm really sorry, but you're not, you're not worth the time that it would take for me to explain this to you. And also, I think that your kind is dwindling. And I think that there was that amazing article in Psychologies, which shows that guys who have this mindset, you know, the future is not looking great for them, because women have already clocked onto this. And I don't think that they want to settle for this, or they don't want to tie into these, like, or perpetuate these tropes that they are

the ones who are marriage mad or baby mad or whatever. Because what's the point? You get into a relationship with someone and you're still having to drive everything like it's exhausting no one's got the time for it and you don't need to do it yeah it was that piece wasn't it that said that men are reporting feeling finding it really hard to date because women's standards have got so high that they can't like date anyone which is absolutely hilarious and I think that's really interesting and I agree with this is kind of where I got to about you saying like being able to go up and down and sideways I started to really question like do I believe that we can be with someone for 80 years do I believe that like marriage is something that I really need

to engage in and that's sort of quite like hot debate on my Instagram the other day and maybe you can have what's wrong with having lots of concurrent relationships is it always a failure if a relationship doesn't work I just started to realize I was like imagine lying on your deathbed and being like oh my god I like didn't sleep with that person because I was worried about feeling a certain way about my my sexual promiscuity or whatever and I was just like life is there to be experienced and there's so many ways especially as women that were kind of like curtailed from all of this fun that we could be having because like you said we've got to get on the escalator at really quite a young age a really young age given you know what the average kind of

lifespan is and also I think it forces us into a state where we just overanalyze everything rather than actually enjoying what's in front of us. And I think that I do understand that, you know, for some people they do want to be in a relationship and they literally want that to be the only relationship they have until, you know, they die. But like if you're getting into that relationship when you're in your 20s or 30s, and let's say the average life expectancy is about 80,

that's like 50 years, you know. the best promise that we can make to each other is that we are going to try and understand each other and evolve like like to me I think that that is one of the most romantic things where someone can say to me is that I will try and evolve alongside you rather than this like you know really like black and white underlined promise of yeah we're gonna be together until we both die. It's just so, so overwhelming. Like you, none of us know what the future holds. And I just think that if we are sort of approaching, if we're in a relationship and we're approaching that relationship as something that developed, develops and evolves personally for me, that makes me feel like I can breathe breathe if someone is telling me that we have to

be together forever and ever that feels like someone has literally put a weight on my chest and is just pressing down that's how i think i've started to think about it when i was talking about like marriage and my stories i was like it doesn't for me feel like an exciting commitment it kind of makes me feel i think and this isn't to say always i always feel bad about this because Emma's literally getting married next year and I keep talking about marriage in heteronormative relations I think this thing is heightened in that what it's kind of like this idea that once you get married you can relax you can kind of give up and like you said that that evolution and that growing isn't prioritized as much because it's like well we've signed the papers now it's really hard to get away from each other and I feel like when I think about really

long-term love I kind of like the idea of it there being a commitment and not necessarily needing certain things around I don't know if I just completely butch that I don't know if you know what I'm saying no I know exactly what you're saying I just and I I understand it because which and as a concept it seems so bizarre to me that marriage is viewed as this thing where you just then don't make an effort because every single relationship requires effort, like the relationship with your parents, the relationship that you have with your friends. And to me, I just think, well, why would marriage be any different? And in fact, actually, and I can say this having been married, is that marriage or anything that involves a long term partnership with someone else, which you will know is that it is so much easier to be on your own. I mean, unless like you fundamentally hate being

on your own or you have a fundamental fear of loneliness of being on your own, it is so much easier because you don't have to factor in someone else's stuff. Whereas for me, marriage is like, I mean, yeah, it's not just that you're together in a long-term relationship there are legal consequences of of that relationship it is a huge undertaking and I'm like oh but you know no one really accurately spelled that out it was just marriage was this goal that you had to work towards and then once you once you got it everything would be really easy and I'm not saying that my marriage is necessarily reflective you know of marriages in general like it would be you know Rob had like a lot of issues there were a lot of things that we

had to kind of like tackle in terms of his health within our marriage but I do know that if I was for example to consider ever ever getting remarried is that I would want to be aware of everything like every aspect from you know are we aligned in terms of our finances like do we do we know what we want our future to to roughly be like and if we don't then that's okay but are we working towards like the same goal and if that goal again is like evolution then cool I'm I'm really up for that it's just that I don't think that enough emphasis is placed on the fact that marriage is actually a really serious undertaking and it's not something where you get married and then you just

sit in your pajamas on the sofa like I mean yeah that's a lovely part of it but you can do that in any relationship and I just yeah that sorry that I just I think that I'm not anti-marriage by any means I think that it can be one of the most incredible things and the bond that it creates between two people it's unlike it's unlike any other bond and I definitely know that there is a distinction for me anyway but I do think that we should be having a more honest conversation about whether it's actually right for people rather than it being a default expectation or a default end point to a long-term relationship. Jackpots. Guaranteed to hit by 11 p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do.

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at canada.casino.fandu.com please play responsibly i wanted to know how is entering 40 because i think like again a lot this has been i've had so many conversations about 30 just because it's like i'm obsessed with it but how how is it coming into your 40s how does is life just getting better do you feel more like yourself do you feel like your work's better like what is that decade start feeling like I know you only just started it I would say that it's it's an incredible decade I mean when I was 39 I was really grumpy about it I was not looking forward to it at all and I I kind of, I kind of thought this is the beginning of the end, you know, the slow decline. And then I turned 40 and it was amazing. Like even though I had a lockdown birthday,

unfortunately, I just felt different. It just felt like something had just been taken off my shoulders a little bit. And I did not feel like that when I turned 30. I was really, really pissed off when I turned 30. And then especially when I woke up with a hangover and I saw like all of the cards with 30 on them, I was like, Brandon. So, and I didn't feel comfortable in my age until I would say I was about 33. You know, it took a while. And there was this expectation, for example, in your 30s, when you turn 30, that all of this wisdom, you know, and self-assurance is supposed to drop into your lap. And it just doesn't. And also, I don't think it's supposed to happen at that age, quite frankly.

You know, if we think about the goalposts that have moved since then, 30 is still really young. You know, you're not in midlife yet. You're still like in the early quarter, you know, maybe not quarter young you know you're not you're not in midlife yet you're still like in the early quarter you know maybe not quarter necessarily but you're still in the earlier part of your life right and if you think about it if you're coming off the back of being in your 20s which is a time of such experimentation and still figuring things out like what is supposed to have happened at your 30th birthday that means that you've instantly got

access to all of this knowledge whereas I feel like turning 40 was the accrual of all of that it's all of the stuff that you've worked on and that you've built within that decade it that just hits and it lands differently and definitely I think that you know don't get me wrong not everything is amazing for example I now get three day hangovers, which is, I'm so angry about, I'm just so angry that I didn't enjoy those years of just, you know, only having a day of feeling like crap. And there are things that are definitely, you know, I like to do a fair bit of sport. And there are definitely things that recovery wise, my body just takes a little bit longer to recover from. But the clarity that

it gives you is about the things that you do and don't want to do. It allows you to focus on people that you really want in your life that are adding to your life that you also add to their lives. I think it also in terms of when it comes to, for example, your career, there are still days where I struggle with aspects of my career. And for sure, because we live in an age of society, you do worry and wonder about the opportunities that might still be coming to you in your 40s versus when you were in your 20s and your 30s.

But by and large, you have probably built up by then a big body of work. And you know that things come to you so much faster and so much quicker. And also there are things that you're less willing to do. Like, you know, part of my career is journalism, which is admittedly an increasingly small percentage of my work, but I will get people who are still offering me the same rates that they did when I was 20. And I'm just like, no, like, what is wrong with you you like I've got a 20-year career under my belt I'm not working for that rate anymore so being able to say yes and no to things and to to know that even if I say no to a work opportunity that it's okay because another opportunity will present itself or I will make that opportunity happen for myself that confidence

and that self-assurance is something that is an incredible thing to have in your armory when it comes to, you know, just moving through your career. And definitely, I would say when it comes to dating, of course, it can be harder, because, you know, it depends on who you're dating. And, you know, even if you're, let's say, if, for example, you're dating men, you would hope they have the same maturity levels as you. But very often, that might not be the case. Or you have a better sense of your own boundaries around what you will and will not put up with. And that also eliminates people from from that mix, right? So there are a few people to date. However, I would just say that, you know, in my 20s, for example, I would like spend a whole evening on a date with someone who I knew I was not going to be seeing again or whose company I found really boring.

And now or rather before I met my partner, it's like it's one drink. Like it's going to be one drink because you have a very sharp sense of awareness around the value of your time like that is the one thing that I would say and it's like no actually I could be in bed by nine o'clock and like reading a book and like living my best life versus me staying because I have to massage someone else's ego or I don't want to make them feel bad like if I'm not going to see them again they're going to find out anyway so I might as well just let them know now I wish I had when I was dating also when my girlfriend's date we come up with like the most elaborate things we're like okay if it's going bad I'm gonna text you you ring me I'll say the hospital and then like but then when actually

you don't want to leave we never do that because then we feel bad and then you stay and then you're hungover and I just waited like three hours when this guy was so boring and it's it's I always think that I'm like I can just leave after drink and you always organize it like don't get food in case you don't like and then I never we never do and then I never did and it's it's I wish I could have that clarity just be like thanks for the drink it was nice to meet you but that's what I did on my on my last day the guy was off his tits on cocaine I'm pretty sure he was because we were supposed to meet in a pub for a drink and I was just like fascinated by just how fast his face and his hands were moving and the gesticulations and I had a drink and I was thinking there's there's no way and I said well I said thanks

for the drink I just said I've got to go now and I just said but take care of yourself and I just said I've got to go now I just said but take care of yourself and I just I thought I'm not giving you I'm not giving I don't need to explain myself any further and afterwards he texted he said oh I don't know what was wrong with me I just don't feel like I was my best self and I was like I I can tell you what I can tell you what was wrong with you so yeah that is funny I was thinking also about what you're saying about careers and feeling like you're going to have less opportunities as you get older. And the more I think about this, the more weird it is how opportunities are skewed

to people when they're younger because it should be a crescendo. It should be that as time goes on, as you accrue more knowledge, as you get better at your job, the opportunities broaden and people are more interested in what you have to say. And when you're young, it's really fun

because people are like, God, you're so young. You must're young it's really fun because people are like god you're so young you must come and tell us about all the things you think because you're 23 and then I was like older I'm actually no I kind of want to keep things to myself work in silence and then I'm really scared about putting out work I want it now I want to be like when I'm 40 I'm going to do this thing because then I'll know it does seem odd looking now how the world yeah excuse things towards youth when youth is amazing and lovely but there's what there's so much wisdom with age and time I think it's really important to have definitely to have younger voices in in the mix like whatever it is that we're discussing whether it's like dating or life choices or whatever

and I think it's really vital because so for example I'm 42 and I learn like so much from younger women younger people really that helps and informs my own view of the world so I think that it's very much I want to kind of be inclusive of everyone here because it that works both ways but absolutely I think that it's definitely something I've become more aware of since turning 40, of just the types of representation that you get and what age demographics those belong to. And that for me is a problem, because I think that definitely, when I think about being in my twenties and thirties, while I would say my perspective was maybe useful to someone, I was still figuring out a lot of

stuff. And it doesn't mean that I'm not figuring out stuff now, but I now have something a bit more useful in terms of perspective to add around that. And I think that when you are only talking about something from a specific lens. So for for example like a classic example to give is that whenever you see like older women so let's say you know 40s 50s 60s and beyond it is still very much a very specific demographic even if for example we talk about something like body size when a woman in her 50s or 40s is celebrated, they will be super, super slim. You know, there's almost zero body diversity, for example, on Instagram when it comes to influencers in that sphere or models that are used. And so for me at the moment, I'm like,

well, we don't have like, we don't have any equality around this because we're still telling women in the same way for example you know let's say when you look at like international women's day panels and like let's say you know five ten years ago it was a real problem because they had let's say no racial diversity right in in them to pick one intersection out of many and now we're in the same we're having the exact same situation with older women in that it's a very specific type of demographic because that is what the default, you know, ideals have always been. And so whereas I feel like in other areas, we are deconstructing that and we're getting a lot better at that. I do think that when it comes to older women and older women's voices, that definitely needs to be a lot more diverse,

whether we're looking at things like you know disability like age body size race you know sexual identity gender identity whatever it might be that's why I feel really passionate about it because I just think that for me I have made so many different decisions because I have seen it being role modeled by other people or for example if I've wanted to make a decision that my friends might not necessarily understand I've seen someone else make that decision and it's kind of co-signed what I what it is I've all validated what I've wanted to do and I there are so many things that I never would have done you know I never would have started weightlifting if I had not seen a woman of the same age as me back then in my late 30s like posting on Facebook doing

a deadlift like there are so many other choices like taking myself out on this day I would not have really have thought to have done it had I not seen someone else do it so that's why I feel like it doesn't necessarily mean that if you see someone doing something you have to do it I just want to know that the possibilities are there and I think that if we can include women of different age groups it's just show all it does is it shows you different possibilities and different life choices I so also I did this to you when you first came in which I shouldn't do but I was like oh my god you look amazing can we talk about you being 40 also you don't look 40 you look about 30 and that's a really redacted thing to you but it was making me think about you know the Anne Hathaway thing I think she's 36 can't remember and everyone's going she looks amazing for her age and everyone's like

have you just not seen a woman and I actually think part of this problem is it's very like infrequent that we see like 40 year olds doing certain things so so we do have this and we're like god you look so young and even me and my friends were like we don't really look like almost 30 and it's like because I think media is solid from so young that when the minute you're past 25 you're gonna be like this really old person you're gonna dress really dowdly and you're gonna act in a certain way and and none of that is is true like you can still take up hobbies and date and and be glamorous and do whatever up until you're 80 if you want to but I think that we like you said because the the diversity and the range of ages and the representation we get is so slim there is this kind of like almost like we don't

know what's beyond but like what's coming for us it feels terrifying was actually you just kind of feel the same and like you said those minor changes might get slightly long hangovers you might be slightly more tired in your body but you're not suddenly this completely different person yeah I mean it's it's exactly that I think they kind of expect you to turn into the crone from like Snow White just literally overnight and I think that number one I mean let's let's face it we live in a sexist society men Men do not get the same scrutiny, I don't think, as women do in terms of particularly aesthetics and your age and what you're supposed to look like. But also, you know, again, I think it's so much to do with your life choices. So, for example, I don't have children, you know.

My life is infinitely easier than the life, for example, my mother had. It also depends on things like your genetics, like there's so many things like what you look like is not necessarily really reflective of your mindset and all of those things. But it does come down to representation in terms of I think that this idea that the older you get, that there are diminishing returns or that you're automatically more frail or whatever it is, it's a bias. It's not actually based on anything real. And we're sold this kind of story, really, that that's what getting older means, that it means being a lesser version of the self that you are now, right? When to me, I just think, but the older I get, the more I gain stuff. I accrue stuff. I become more powerful because I know myself better. I can make better choices in half the time.

Like for example, the, oh God, the losers that I dated in my twenties. Now, yeah, they wouldn't get past the first drink, you know? So I'm a lot more considered about like what I do with my time. And I'm definitely not alone in this. You know, it's, there are so many women I know who are dating in their forties who think the same way, because if you have built a life for yourself that you like living, why would you not want to get back to that life versus sacrificing it for some, you know,

romantic storyline that you don't necessarily know if you want that for yourself but also you know so for example I've sort of started to as part of my new year's resolution I wanted to kind of like learn a few disciplines like with sport and things like that and I um I started to sort of dabble a little bit in like Brazilian jiu-jitsu I'm really bad at it I've literally only done like two classes but my first thought before doing it which I'm really ashamed to say was like oh my god but what if I injure myself more because I'm now in my 40s and I was like but where does that come from you know there's nothing unless there's some kind of pre-existing health condition that I might have or something that the doctor has told me there's actually

nothing to say that the default for getting older is frailty and i definitely think that that's something that people maybe need to understand that like what you the best thing that you can do is deal with whatever is in front of you at this at this point in time rather than preempting that's that's what might happen this you're like there's just so much that we do about like living in the future in our own heads that actually very often never comes to pass. And I think that when it comes to definitely getting older, you realize that even if like your worst fear comes to pass, it's okay. Like you can still make choices within that. You can still realign things. You can still make different choices around how you choose to live your life

like it's there's no such thing as it's too late you know until it's too late obviously so I know that you compete now in powerlifting is that right I think that's so cool and I remember I can remember the point when you've I can't I can weirdly remember have such a vivid memory of you start starting powerlifting I was sat in my flat in Stratum and I was watching you on Instagram I can like really remember when it was was it like 2019 or something like that yeah how weird is that I just some things you remember what had you ever done anything like that before because again I think that's such a nice thing to gain like like you said you're in your late 30s and and that's at a point when I think people don't start taking up things because

it's like a self-limiting belief where you think well I better start you know even dressing or changing or feeling like you're becoming desexualized by society so then you yourself start to like desexualize yourself I think it's the same with exercise it's like well getting a bit older probably shouldn't do it actually the great thing is to carry on and take things up what did that what impact did that have for you I know that you love it now and you're like amazing at it I'm really not amazing at it but that's very sweet of you to say I'm very very average um but um the main reason was because I started dabbling in weightlifting probably a couple of years before that and that was very very much born from Rob passing away and just

realizing that I wanted to be very self-sufficient and lift things and do things. And I just did not, I'd reached the point where I was like, I don't want to ask a man for help. And again, it's a, it's a sort of relearning around your social conditioning, which is that my entire life I'd been told that if it wasn't going to be my dad, then it was going to be my male friends. Then it was going to be, you know, a male partner and all of this stuff. And I just thought, I don't really think I can carry that as a belief if I am supposed to be a feminist and if I'm supposed to believe in equality. And I kind of need to work on getting myself to a point where I can maybe physically do this stuff for myself. Now, obviously a massive caveat to that, because I don't want that to sound super ableist is I was working within what my capabilities were within

that. So I had decided that I wanted to learn how to lift weights and to just get a bit stronger, really. Then I met my, my current coach and he was a, is a powerlifter and there was this little competition that was taking place like an unofficial competition and I started dabbling in it and one of the things that really really changed everything for me around this was that I just said I don't know what powerlifting is it sounds really scary and I don't think I'm gonna enjoy it and he just said why don't we just like train for it and then see if you like it. And if you don't like it, then no harm, no foul. And the thing that the training did was that it was probably the first time that I had ever really trained or exercised in a way

where weight loss or weight maintenance or the aesthetics of my body was not the priority. It was not front and center. It was literally about how strong I could be. And that was something that I, you know, write in a program every week. So that, that was the goal and the focus. And so not only did it make it incredibly fun to do, I just noticed like how much real estate that thinking, that previous thinking had just taken up in my head. And I just had this moment really where I just thought, this is kind of what I want to do. I want to be able to, it did take, don't get me wrong,

it took a long time to be comfortable with it because we do live in a society that unfortunately still overwhelmingly places aesthetics and weight loss as a motivator for like physical exercise. But it did really change things for me, um, in terms of just actually being physically strong. And then when I started competing, what that taught me, I mean, it was, I was so scared my first competition, but what, what it taught me was that the older you get for example you you do

get very much locked into your comfort zone and and what I had noticed that I'd been doing was just sort of keeping myself in this very safe little bubble of comfort which you know to be kind to myself I think that's maybe what I needed at the time but the opportunity to practice failure was almost removed because I wasn't really pushing myself out of my comfort zone and definitely competing you are practicing failure or any any sport any type of activity you're practicing failure all the time and you will learn stuff you know from failing things and so I think what it did was number one I learned I learned some shit but also it it did tell it

teach me that when you fail something the world doesn't end like it's okay to do that and actually if you're going to learn a skill if you're going to be good at anything you're probably not going to get it right you know the first few times and that's applicable to anything not obviously just a a sport but I think it definitely also made me realize, and this is definitely something I feel in my 40s, is that for most of my life, I have just been carrying stuff around in my head that is just not important. And it just takes up so much space. And when you sort of are entering a period in which you see how society is trying to make you invisible or destabilize you or you know for example if you work for a company there are stats around the sort of ages and bias that women receive which is at an

earlier age than than men people are trying to you know remove you from the picture anyway so there's there's no point to to living according to these expectations that are placed on you because you can't win. Like it's not a game you can win. So what's the point of holding on to it? And there's something that kind of happens. There's like an alchemy that happens in that where you just realize that if you can't win, you might as well make up your own rules. Like you might as well do the things that you want to do that gives you joy, allows you to live in a way that that when you wake up in the morning you're glad that this is your life and that then will have a domino effect on

so many other decisions you make in terms of the type of friends that you have like making new friends that reflect those choices and so when I like you know bang on about powerlifting it's not just about lifting weights like it has had this like ripple effect I think into every other area of my life as well what were those things that you're carrying around that were taking up so much space I think how my body should look you know definitely how small it should be all the time because you know we're told that like the smaller your body is the more it is, the more that that's what you should look like if you're a woman, you know. And then realizing what an absolutely bollocks expectation that is. And, you know, a body is a body and you can't tell a body's health from the size of it.

And also just that actually, you know, things around, for example, muscle. Like I remember when I started weightlifting, I was so scared of getting, you know, quote marks bigger because I didn't recognize, you know, my own like internalized fat phobia around it. And then realizing that actually all that muscle does is it helps you to do more stuff. Like it, it sort of, it just, it opens up this world to you where you can carry your own stuff around. Like literally that's it. There's, you know, and who, who wouldn't want to be able to do that? I think it's also the, the realization that the expectations that we have for women are so, so feminized. It's so hyper feminine. And actually some of that stuff doesn't really work for me. You know, I don't think I'm a particularly hyper feminine person.

There are some days when I feel like that. There's some days when I feel like, you know, fairly androgynous. And so it's just things that, just little things like that, that I've sort of realized whose expectation, like whose sense of attractiveness

am I working towards? And I know this sounds really arrogant, but really the only person's opinion that matters in that scenario is me because I have to mentally live with myself and the choices that I make. So I think relinquishing some of that, even stuff around relationships, it's just, you know, my relationship probably doesn't look like a relationship that I would have had in my 20s or indeed, you know know my friend's marriages or

or their relationships and that's okay too it doesn't have to like as long as it works for me and it works for my partner that we are literally the only two people that count in that scenario you know I love all of that and I'm going to try and say something and I didn't know how to explain it right when so thinking about how who you're trying to impress and carrying all that stuff around body image which every single person that I know has some kind of hang up around it and coming into dating and stuff I was thinking about this I was thinking about it with my friends how often when you're single you work you can work much harder on your appearance because it's this idea of like maybe trying to catch a mate or like somewhere in

your your mind you're doing that then when you meet someone the idea of like maybe trying to catch a mate or like somewhere in your your mind you're doing that then when you meet someone the fear of like finding someone has gone away but then then it's like you've met them at this point where you were presenting something which is kind of in a way unattainable to you and then it's difficult because when you're with this person you kind of then have to try and somehow maintain this thing that was just to get them so it's I don't know if I'm explaining this right so me and my friends are talking about how instead of doing that instead of adapting or changing or trying to present something in order to like peacock and catch on which is natural for the most part you should try and meet someone when you're at a point when you're

not changing yourself because that's then you don't have to change does that any of that make sense I can't explain what I'm trying to say but basically get to the point that you are at before you meet someone rather than you know like trying to put something forward that maybe isn't new and it's the same when you date and you kind of like act differently or speak differently that's that you're actually just doing yourself a disservice because then you've got to perform this slightly different version of yourself that you've designed because you think that's what's going to be most desirable but what you're attracting isn't going to be someone that's desiring the true you

yeah does that make sense it does make sense I mean I would say that there's definitely I have definitely done that in the past and then when the other person realizes that I'm not this fiction that I put forward, then, you know, inevitably fizzles out. It doesn't last. But I do understand that there's also, however, you know, if we're being realistic about things, you know, when I've, for example, gone on a first few dates with someone, there are certain things that I may not, I may not, I may not fully reveal to them because, you know, I'm sort of trying to present like my best self, but it is still fundamentally myself. Like it's not, it's not sort of something that I'm necessarily, lying is probably the wrong word, but more like this curated version of myself, right? And I would say that I completely understand that. But I also just think that if you are living your life in a way that is reflective

of who you are, where you are now, then when you kind of go on a date with someone, all you're just doing is you're kind of like just giving them a more polished version right yeah of who you are whereas for example I can completely understand like I think there was this guy I went on a date with that I think I just made something up about like that I really liked you know climbing or bouldering or something like that I've never done it and and I sort of just made made up this entire thing and then I just thought oh yeah but I'm not this person you know I actually really enjoy doing like lots of other things and so I think that people even if they don't know what it is that they're receiving on the other end of you know their

communication with you I think people on some level know whether or not it's it's that version of you I don't know if that's answered your question. I think, yeah, I think, I guess I was saying like, that thing about carrying all those responsibilities and weights and expectations around with you being really exhausting is something that I think everyone kind of feels. And I guess it's learning to, I think often we feel in society

when you feel like you can relax, this is when you find a partner, especially as a woman, it's like, oh, I don't have to carry this anymore because I've met my mate now. And it's kind of, I guess me and my friends are talking about trying to get to that point before then trying to let yourself really tap into who you are,

get rid of those expectations, stop carrying that around before you've got someone that's like validated you. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. So, so I would say around that, the, you so I mean yeah so so I would say around that the the best piece of advice that I can kind of give around that is that whatever it is that you're undertaking just actually ask yourself

why you're doing it so for example if I take like let's say you know going to the gym or whatever as an example I'm not saying that aesthetic goals aren't like good goals to have like I have aesthetic goals I literally every single person has them right because most people have an idea of what they want to look like or how they want to present themselves what I would just say is is that that cannot like whatever it is that is outward facing that cannot be the only goal like I mean yes of course it can because you know you're an individual but if you want to get to the place that you're describing where it's an act the actual you and the actual version of yourself that goal has to be met alongside

something deeper so it has to be met alongside are you doing something that also makes you feel good about yourself that's got like nothing to do with your aesthetic like is just the way that you like to move your body or you go to a class and your mates are also going with you so you get to hang out with them and I just feel like when I think about every single decision that is currently in my life at the moment it's because more often than not it's very intentional and it's also there's a goal outside of it that is beyond like what does this look like in person like even if like it's an event that i am going to if it is an event that i'm going to because i want to take a picture for instagram and say hey aren't i so cool i got invited to this event i know i'm going to have a shit time at this event if i'm going to the event and i know that mates

of mine mates of mine are already going to be there, or it's like something like there's going to be a talk there that I will learn something about that I'm really excited about, then I know that that's going to feel like a good thing to do. And I say this having gone to an event last year where I literally just wanted to go, I feel so disgusted in myself even saying it, but I literally wanted to go to show that I'd been invited at this event.

I stayed 10 minutes. I've done the exact same thing yeah so there's just no point your time is valuable there's just no point wasting your time like that I was wondering so I'm bringing it back a little bit to the timeline thing um you spoke earlier about you know how we get and I completely agree with this idea where you kind of get hepped up in this imagined future that you set out for yourself and then inevitably it doesn't work out and then you feel this disappointment obviously especially with everything that you've gone through I wonder what is your relationship like with thinking about the future is that something which you try to stay in the present much more or do you have goals and plans and things or are you much more trying to just focus on the now I don't know if it's to do with my past in terms of, you know, Rob and sort of rebuilding

things after that, or what is, what has actually come out of the pandemic? Because I feel like that has also impacted me in a way that it's obviously impacted everyone. I definitely know that, so for example, before the pandemic, I really needed my environment to be as safe and controlled and predictable as possible. So I literally had almost no spontaneity really. And the idea of trying things that were new,

beyond let's say powerlifting I did not have that mindset to it at all I wasn't really up for that and then the pandemic happened and after coming out of that first I would say year or so there was it was a catalyst for me just not wanting to to be in that safe little bubble anymore. And, and there was kind of quite for me a radical shift in terms of just being open to things, trying new things, and so on, like across every single area of my life. What has what it's also done, apart from making me a lot more spontaneous, and a lot more reactive to things that are happening in the now rather than, hey, like my next weekend is that I've got free is in three months time, you know, that kind of

like calendar organization is that the idea of a five year plan, for example, makes me want to throw up like the idea of having things prescriptively organized is something that I can actually just feel myself physically recoil from. The main reason for that is because I don't know what those things look like. And also because of the uncertainty of the last few years, I think it's sort of like there's this messaging underneath it for me, which is I could plan every single thing and stuff could still happen that completely upends that. So for for me I think the the the thing that I'm working towards is more of an emotion and how I want my life to be to what I

want it to feel like versus what do the actual things need to be in it to make my life happy because if you look back five to ten years ago of where your life was and maybe where it is now, there are probably ways in which it doesn't look anything like you thought it would. And also there are things, my life coach made me do this, there are things that you have probably achieved that you would have had no sense of even knowing that that was a possibility for you. So while I understand some people love to know what's going on in their lives and love to be organized in that way,

I just can't work like that. And so for example, things like moving house or where I'm gonna live, that's just not where my brain is at the moment. I don't know why, it's just some kind of like leaning into it. So where I sort of want to be in the future is I just want to feel like I have autonomy, that my life choices are what I have picked for myself.

There is going to be stuff that happens that's like beyond my control. But beyond that, I would like to be living somewhere that makes me happy, that I enjoy living in. And I would like to be in love and with my partner and building a life together and also seeing my friends and family and like literally that's it those are such when you say it like that like those metrics of it's not even success those ways that you're measuring like the values in your life make so much more sense than being like I need to have a house and a car and a dog because like like you said what's to say that that's what's going to work for you what what if there's an opportunity where you need to be living in an apartment in new york and your like

idea is that i have to be living in a house i know that's a really stupid thing but but i i think that's so nice just to be thinking that because all of that is self-contained within you your whole environment can change as long as you you're keeping like those emotions i think that's such a nice way of like viewing things and it makes it that's much easier to achieve in a weird way because it's like those are things you can sort of control yeah I mean I also think because for me those are things like so let's say for example the actual practicalities of things I think don't get me wrong I know that my life is a lot easier to organize because I don't have kids, right? But I think that those are things that can be slotted in and around other things. Like my compass is definitely more towards like how I'm feeling because I did have that

previously. I did have the, oh, I need to have a house by this and I need to be married by that. And then stuff doesn't work out the way that you think it's going to and then you just end up having a breakdown around it for what like there's no if if if when it comes to stuff around your timelines I don't think that necessarily if you have a timeline for yourself that it's a bad thing but I think that there has to be flexibility woven into it so that if the thing you're expecting doesn't happen it's okay because you can figure out a different way of making it happen for you I love that that's a really nice lovely note to end on as well I think I wanted to ask I know that you're in case of emergency is your debut novel which I

haven't got around to reading but I am sorry because i've been marking my big project but i'm going to read it and is it out in paperback it is out in paperback on the 30th of march 30th march okay amazing and what other things would you like to point people in the direction of i know you've written three other books yes i mean i would definitely say the paperback would be amazing also because i feel like a big part of it is about rejecting those societal expectations and working out what's important to you so I think it very much does underpin what we've been talking about but otherwise yeah come and say hello on Instagram amazing thank you so much I've loved this conversation it's been so nice to see you thank you coming to my flat and chatting to me and thank

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