Adulting - Let's Talk About... Insidious Misogyny

Episode Date: November 3, 2024

Hello and welcome to Adulting, and the sixteenth episode of Let’s Talk About… a broadening of Adulting... where that was about all of the things we never got taught in school, this is almost like seminars on life; where my audience (that's you!), get to chat anonymously about things they couldn't necessarily discuss over lunch with their friends, or feel like they don't have anyone to talk to about whatever it may be.  To get involved, follow me on Instagram @oenone, where every Tuesday we vote on a topic and every Wednesday we dig deep. Let’s Talk About… insidious misogyny. The submission read ‘Don’t know how to phrase this properly but Saoirse Ronan on the Graham Norton show and the problem with even the ‘nice guys’ not getting it/how women are always on edge’. So, I have condensed that to 'insidious misogyny', which I hope works! This conversation is two-fold, both about what happened on that literal couch, and the parasocial relationships we have with celebrities which mean we can sometimes give tiny viral moments, way too much airtime, and secondly. what this represents more broadly, at a time when gendered and sexual violence against women feels to be at an all-time high. I hope you enjoy, as always, please do rate, review and subscribe! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Or visit connectsontario.ca. Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires play by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded. Or 11 p.m. Eastern. Restrictions apply. See full terms at canada.casino.fandu.com. Please play responsibly. At the top of the episode, I just want to say that this episode does contain references to sexual violence and rape and violence against women. Hello and welcome to Adulting and the 16th episode of Let's Talk About, a broadening of adulting where that was about all of the things we never got taught in school. This is almost like Seminars on Life where my audience, that's you, get to chat

anonymously about things they couldn't necessarily discuss over lunch with their friends or maybe just feel like you don't have anyone to talk to about whatever it may be. To get involved, follow me on Instagram at Anoni, where every Tuesday we vote on a topic and every Wednesday we dig deep. Let's talk about insidious misogyny. The submission read, I don't know how to phrase this properly, but Saoirse Ronan on the Graham Norton show and the problem with even the, inverted commas, nice guys not getting it and how women are always on edge. So I have condensed that to insidious misogyny, which I think hopefully works. This conversation ended up being quite twofold. It was both about what happened on that literal couch and the parasocial relationships that we have with celebrities,

which means we can read into these viral clips and maybe perhaps imbue them with lots of meaning but also secondly what this represents more broadly and culturally at a time when gendered and sexual violence against women feels to be at an all-time high. I hope you enjoyed this episode and as always please do rate, review, subscribe and follow the show some messages i've had so many guys tell me that male privilege isn't a thing i saw a comment saying she killed the vibe i think killing women is arguably worse i would love to know why everyone assumes those on the show were the nice guys framing women as the party poopers or deb Debbie Downers when we candidly share our real lived experiences is just so tired. Just another way for men to keep us from speaking our truths

when they don't want to hear it. I can't believe the amount of men who vilify women for harshing the vibe just because she told an almost universal truth. Another message read, it's been so interesting on Twitter women saying oh my gosh paul muskell's giving me the ick for the first time i think it also speaks to parasocial relationships where people optimistically hope their idols and fave celebrities align with their sexual politics which i think has made it disappointing for some in a completely different way there's still such a lack of understanding around the safety of women in Hollywood. And someone replied to this saying, I haven't seen the full clip, i.e. either side of the viral snippet, but Paul

Mezcal didn't react badly. I just think it was a learning point as well as him subconsciously being oblivious, then realising what he'd said, forgotten about women's experiences. Can we really villainise him for that? He didn't stand his ground or not get it inverted commas and someone replied not disagreeing with the messages here but the full context of the grey and norton show helps they were joking about the weird fight techniques and scenes they've been taught on set for filming this doesn't change sasha's point but interesting how we're all so happy to mold a narrative around a five second snippet we are the t TikTok generation. So I wanted to kind of go from that because I think that what's happening culturally, it's so interesting. It was a really small

snippet, but, and there have been so many instances when a really tiny video that perhaps contextually meant something slightly different has been completely taken out of context, completely blown up and heralded as something that it really didn't need to be. And I think Saoirse has even actually responded to it and, and you know said about the context of the clip and said about how she has these conversations off screen as well with Paul who's a really good friend of hers but I think the reason it touched such an up is that sexual violence and violence against women just feels right now inescapable and I think that we are living through a culture of great distrust against men because for so long especially as women we've been told that we have to say not all men and

often we will concede because we have people in our lives who are men who we trust and love and know that they have no malicious intent towards women. At the same time, I often will have conversations with friends about instances, especially usually like sexual instances where you couldn't frame an endeavor that occurred as rape or necessary sexual violence. And yet, the power dynamic between men and women and the way that society is structured is such that sometimes women will end up in situations that they don't necessarily want to be in, that they aren't necessarily saying no to in a very effusive way. And they're just sort of giving in or giving up or feeling like as much as they are kind of given an option, they're not. So there's this really

murky water of men who are walking away from certain scenarios, believing that they've done nothing wrong, because ostensibly the woman didn't say no. And then women walking away, feeling like actually, I kind of felt like I had no choice there. I hope I've explained that right. But basically, what I'm trying to say is that even the nice men and the men who are good and kind and are educated I think some of us also now are starting to realize that it kind of goes beyond whether or not someone is kind and good it's so systemically ingrained these relationships between men and women our neural pathways the way that we approach the world and some of that is shifting post me too conversations around feminism general liberation and activism towards making the world safer for

women and girls at the same time i think that in practice a lot of men know how to defend a woman in a difficult situation know how to not be overtly violent overtly sexist but that there are just patterns and modes of behavior that genders take on because of the way that we're socialized that mean that women so often actually still are on the back foot. Now, again, I feel like this is, I'm getting into tricky territory here because all of this is blurred lines, not to freaking quote Robin Thicke.

But it is kind of that. So there's that element where the conversations I'm having with female friends are becoming even more nuanced even more complicated we're like actually what's not victim blaming ourselves or each other but like where are we submissive and complicit in upholding patriarchal ideas of how men and women respond and also that one of the reasons that we do those things is also out of self-prot protection and self-preservation it's to save ourselves from danger or embarrassment or shame so it's like sometimes this consent conversation if we're looking at sexual violence isn't it's

not really good enough to say was it yes or no it's also looking at what what is the rest of the the context of that situation i also think with the giselle Pellicott case in France, which is something which I'm almost constantly talking about with my friends. This idea that this woman who was in her 70s and was married to her husband had been being drugged and raped for 10 years, and her husband had tens of thousands of videos and photos, and they live in a small village in France. and of all the men that he asked if they would like to come and do this rape his wife while she was unconscious only two men said no and the two men that said no never came forward never spoke to the police I believe the age range was someone in their mid to late 20s up until her age or older that I think has put the fear of God into so many women in terms of how, from such a small

place in France, this is happening. The other thing, which to me is so fascinating, devastating about this case, is the fact that the reason that the husband got caught is because he was upskirting someone on a train, which, as you may know, was made illegal by Gina Martin. She managed to pass the law and change it after she was upskirted, which upskirting is when someone takes a picture up someone's skirt in order to take a picture of their knickers or genitalia which used to be kind of common practice like when emma watson turned 18 the paparazzi were literally like waiting to try and get this upskirting shot they stood often with women coming out of taxis trying to get pictures so because that was illegal the police seized his

phone and that meant that they found all of these photos and videos so the not all men thing which i think loads of us know deep like it's fucking annoying when you say something and men go not all men but years ago you might be like okay fine it isn't obviously all men i think we're all kind of feeling a bit like well it is kind of all men it's every man it's men that we know it's people that we're friends with it's clearly a broad range of ages and i think the reason the sasha rohan clip has gone so viral obviously it's not to do with sexual violence obviously there was way more context around it but i think the problem is that we are all hoping that it isn't all men that there are men that are so fluent in the language of violence and gender-based violence that they are able to spot

their blind spots and their own and be able to see out of their own worldview and remember that the world does look very different for women and marginalized genders and other intersectionalities another message read typically men don't have to think about the measures they need to take in order to stay safe in what should be a safe situation e.g walking in public comments like Saoirse made should be said so much more so that they hear how we feel and they can try to understand how we think not entirely related but it's why representation is so important to get a well-rounded viewpoint imagine if Saoirse wasn't on the sofa I mean she was already outnumbered but if she wasn't there the joke would have continued without lots of conversation happening like it has now it's not about bashing men or killing the vibe just trying to get them

to stop and think from a different viewpoint I really agree with this and I agree with the fact that you know comments like these should be made more but really I I also think how many times every year the winter rolls around and it starts to get dark have I said to a man I'm so jealous you got to go for a run in the evening and they'll be like well you could just go for a run in the evening and I'm no I won't even go for a walk in the evenings I'm so terrified of being in the dark I used to live right next to Clapham Common so close to where Sarah Everard was taken I think that it feels like it's falling on deaf ears. It feels so obvious.

Maybe this is also why this clip went so viral because it just seems so obvious. Another message read, I work in an office full of circa 15 men, all white and age 45 and up. Since I've started to take on the challenge to enlighten them on all the things that women have to think about,

worry about, prepare for, along with various minorities, although not my personal experience. It's shocking how baffled they are when I explain the everyday reality. They're all nice guys, but the blanket feedback is they just never thought about it and it blows my mind. I recently recommended they all watch Women of the Hour because I don't know about others here, but I don't think I've watched anything that so closely matched the feeling of being a woman in a scary situation I haven't watched one of the hour yet but I've heard really great things I agree with the sentiment of sort of sometimes telling a man that you felt unsafe in a situation and them looking at you in the moment that you're telling them and you're not visibly harmed and nothing

happened and therefore that kind of making you seem like a bit of a fool rather than a victim of an environment which fundamentally puts women in danger. And I wonder if that is part of the issue. The amount of times I've walked home with like keys between my fingers or felt terrified of someone following me and kind of relayed that to someone and they'd be like, oh, but you're okay. And I remember not that long ago I was on a train and quite a drunk man started sort of getting really close to my face and being really rude and shouting stuff at me and being quite harassing. And I was trying to ignore him. I was sat next to a man and there was like loads of other men in this train carriage and they just sat there. And an older woman came up to me and just made me stand up and go and stand with her by the doors of the train. And not one of the men moved and it was just so interesting to me that dynamic of sometimes even

when they see perhaps they just don't see the threat because I guess this man was drunk and he was like just getting close to my face and he was he wasn't like hitting me or anything I do sometimes wonder if they feel this distinction if there isn't really any harm because if they were in that moment and that was happening to them they could quite comfortably feel very little threat whereas I did feel a threat I felt like if I move if I say something I feel like I'm in danger and I didn't really know how to get out and if I hadn't been and that was also on a on the overground at maybe like 2 p.m and all of us have countless stories like this of feeling intimidated and scared and I think so often it's the intimidation that we feel

that brings out so much fear because the intimidation brings threat and we know that there's violence and yet living under that it's like you're constantly tense but that's quite hard to explain to someone if they've never experienced or felt that fear and so I guess perhaps it's like a lack of empathy because if we've all come out unscathed by the end of the day, what is there really to talk about? Another message read, I have a theory about the good guys thing based on my lived experience. I think they're so attached to the self-perception of being a good guy or being enlightened because they listen to podcasts and read self-help development books or because they regularly visit their grandmothers whatever they're so attached to the image they have of themselves that it leaves them no room to hold space for women sharing their experience because in their minds they've already done the work and they end up taking a woman's negative lived experience as a threat to that precious

good guy image that they have of themselves I'm sorry but when I'm sharing something that I lived through and that's important to me and you refuse to acknowledge my reality, you're making it about yourself. I think that's really insightful. And this is so hard because I do think that men are just as much victims of the patriarchy as women. of their victimness is the fact that their sense of self and their sense of understanding and what a man is supposed to be is chivalrous and protective and providing you know whereas a woman is supposed to be sweet and beautiful blah blah blah and the image of themselves to be upheld within society as this great thing they feel like they've done so much work in order to achieve this but i do agree i still think that they are victims of

sometimes not being able to look at themselves introspectively in the same way that i think women are so often forced to do we're so often forced to mold and change and adapt ourselves whether it's to make ourselves more palatable to men for our safety or for our own benefit to make ourselves look more beautiful not that men don't focus on the way they look as well but I do think that you know the beauty industry is a billion dollar industry which more recently is definitely getting the cash from men as well but I think that so often women are taught to look inwards to figure out where we've gone wrong how we have created an issue again to refer back to Giselle Pellicott when she said the shame is not ours to carry the shame is on them so often when crimes are committed against women it's the woman that turns around and goes

what did I do there what could I have been wearing differently what could I have said differently how could I have acted differently in that moment to make that man not hit me hurt me rape me that is the way that we are. We have been socialized to view things. And I think that, and I'm not saying this to be like men are pieces of shit. I love, I really do have so many great men in my life. I fall in love with men. I've had beautiful relationships with men. I have also been at the hands of some horrible men who have done awful things. But I think that it's, again again I'm trying to talk about men as a concept as a construct if you will as an idea as the I just think that that is very true that when

something happens to a woman we try and figure out how we can change and protect make sure it never happens again whereas men I don't think are taught to do that same thing and so unless they've knowingly acted in a way that they perceive to be wrong or harmful I think it does kind of go against the way that they've been socialized to actually self-introspect and look at where they might have caused a problem and I'm not saying that men are incapable of self-introspection they're absolutely not loads of intelligent great incredible people I don't think that many men listen to this podcast I don't know why I'm apologizing but it's more because I don't want to alienate men and put them outside the conversation or push them further into this red pill and you take things I think that is also the other side of this conversation where if we you don't want to make men feel bad about themselves

so bad that they then end up you know hating women although like is that my response for this as well you go around in circles but I do know something about like bringing men in and being like look this is how all of this shit works and this is how it's impacted me and this is how it's impacted you and this is why you feel like that and I feel like that I do think it's a fault in the system a system which ultimately benefits them then also doesn't benefit them. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do.

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another message read feels like men feel awkward discussing it openly as if it's a fact of life that they will not understand ever because they'll just never know what it's like to be a woman as a teacher it feels like there could be more done on educating children on the issues like there has been with consent. But as always, it's striking a fine balance between educating and scaremongering. E.g., we don't want sex education to have to feel limited like it did years ago to if you have sex, it means you'll get pregnant or have an STI. And so we don't want girls to have to walk around in constant fear. I do think not discussing it openly with both genders when children are so susceptible to absorbing information makes the battle against misogynistic rhetoric a tricky one to battle

if that's all they're being fed like if boys only learn about sex through porn there has to be something counteracting this and someone replied saying to be fair I would also say this is one of the few things that has changed a lot post me too and sarah everard a lot of my male friends and relatives do seem to understand more to want to understand and have started changing their behavior usually crossing the road to not creep out women at night obviously this is the bare fucking minimum but i have to remind them that progress and change does happen and another message read completely agree with this education is key lots of my friends are young female teachers and they share stories with me about how young boys

have assaulted them by touching them from behind and how they hear really harmful rhetorics and when it is challenged they'll say things like donald trump said to grab them by the pussy and he was the president it's actually so heartbreaking to hear because self and i feel like we're making steps forwards but these stories come from three different schools. Education needs to focus more on this and not just this tea video. I even feel like in my own life, I've become quite boring in conversations with men where I am kind of asking them leading questions about their views on certain things in order to try and figure out just how much they understand the intricacies of the way that misogyny is so internalized and the way that they view women because I feel like that's how I'm it's I guess it's hard to tell now which men are because because

I guess over misogyny is less of a thing because of post me too and in some ways that's good but I feel like now it's more insidious and that people have men have learned ways in which to talk a certain way and that doesn't necessarily reflect their internal beliefs or the way that they act even if they're unaware of that like some of the other previous messages said perhaps they've read certain books they've learned certain things they understand on a basic level certain attitudes but actually when it comes to putting things into practice that's not how their behaviors go and I think all of us are kind of feeling this level of distrust and I wonder if the Paul Maskell video so many people react in that way as Paul is like our age group this

demographic of people listening he's someone that seems to be, you know, he dresses a certain way. He is culturally someone that seems to be with the program. I'm such a boomer. I guess what we're looking for is that, do you remember that amazing Andy Murray clip? Actually, I'm going to get it up and I'm going to play it. Andy, Sam is the first US player to reach a major semiffinal since 2009. How would you describe him? Male player. I beg your pardon? Male player. Yes, first male player. That's for sure. What it was about that clip, I think, was the fact that even Andy sounded bored because it was so obvious to him. That's, I think, what we're looking for. I think as women,

we're just waiting for men to see these really obvious gaps in privilege because to be honest it's boring having to point out every single time that you might be worried about getting home in the dark that it might not be as easy for you to take a certain journey that you might not feel safe if you did xyz because it it's so at the forefront of our minds constantly that it's kind of boring it's so second nature someone wrote in like a guy once said to me thought it was weird that I had all my friends on find my friends or you know that we always text each other like let me know if you get home safe it's these are such second nature actions for us that it feels so laborious to have to keep saying things because obviously they do know I think in their reaction and someone sent this in as well like everyone's

reaction on the sofa was kind of like oh fuck we fucked up like we should have acknowledged that but I think that's where it feels deflating because it's like you do know like men know that we feel this way it's just they're not again this is why I think I called it insidious misogyny and we keep coming back to this is because it's such a like if you're not catching it right at the beginning that's when I think we become fearful that it's going to snowball because if they't, if they aren't as in tune with that level of empathy and understanding of the very real threat of violence, then how are we ever going to make sure that they're going to be able to get to the actual root of violence? It's this sort of like slow burning wildfire that suddenly like takes over. And I think that's what we want is that immediacy that innate understanding of

it's not interesting to point it out no and I just think we feel like we shouldn't have to point it out because it is running through the back of our minds at all times and as women we're constantly checking on each other we understand about safety it's not a fun thing to do we're not doing it because we enjoy it it's because it's just a fundamental part of existing as a woman in a world that is violent towards women and I think I won't do it again because I think I did it in the episode about the far-right riots but reading out the rates about femicide and again just thinking about all of the things that are happening currently it might seem like I've made a massive jump to talk about Giselle Pellicot I think I was saying Pellicot sorry my French Giselle Pellicot. I think I was saying Pellicot, sorry, my French,

Giselle Pellicot. But that is kind of, it's not really because that's the thing. It's happening everywhere. And there is that really small seedling of fear that when men don't actively, vocally acknowledge the ways in which women can be in danger there is a seedling of fear that they maybe don't really understand and that all of these conversations we've had and all of the evidence that we've seen and the story upon story upon story just is not really sinking in in a material way and so I think that this is really important to have these seemingly you know it yeah it was slightly out of context and yes it wasn't the deepest conversation around gender-based violence but I think what it's done is really highlight just how much there is so much tension right now and fear for women and how much we really are looking

to men to be allies to be advocates to vocally and immediately be able to respond and acknowledge and show a level of empathy that will make women feel safe because I do think the world feels unsafe even more unsafe perhaps even the fact that I've said Giselle's name time and time again and haven't said Dominique Pellico her husband husband, the person that did this to her, and all of those men, just shows. And the reporting on that as well, the language that's been used, the things that she's come forward and said, and basically said, like, I can never get my life back. It's like living in a horror film. It is atrocious. It is terrifying. And it is terrible. And the fact that also that law around upskirting only came in so recently because of an activist

like Gina Martin. This is not going to be the first of those cases. It's perhaps the first that we have managed to catch and that has been prosecuted against. And the level of bravery from Giselle from standing up and saying my friend Grace did a video on this but just being like it's not our shame of course it's not every single woman that I know which is pretty much every single woman that I know that has been a victim of some form of sexual violence has for a while decided that that was on them that it was somehow their fault that they were embarrassed that they're ashamed that they led the person on that they didn't say no at the right time that they no matter what the circumstances were no matter

exactly what happened I have always known women to take on the responsibility for men's actions and so again I think that's why this thing with Saoirse Ronan it wasn't this crazy wild thing that she said it wasn't groundbreaking and that I think is why it took so much virality because we really are looking for change and we're looking for men to spearhead that change and to take off a bit of the pressure from us because we are already carrying that around all the time this mental load this fear it's so nice that Andy Murray clip I think about it all the time again it's so basic and it's such a relief when it happens and so I think that that's it's it's as simple as trying to make these corrections because as as it stands right now all of us have men in our lives that we trust implicitly of

course and that we know that they're not bad and that they wouldn't harm someone but then you still also can't be sure and when men do make a comment or say things because of this history because of evidence because of the structural systems that are in play because of the patriarchy because of Donald Trump because of Andrew Tate it really could be anyone and that is how it feels and I think it is important to say that like where I'm coming from and every woman I know is coming from is we want to trust and love the men that we come across and that are in our lives there's nothing more that we want and sometimes I think that when we have these conversations and are quite ardently effusive about just how scared we can feel by any man

not one type of man not one demographic not one subset any man that can sometimes make men feel insecure and make them distrust or dislike women and that feels like such a backhanded reaction to what we're saying which is we want to feel included by you and feel safe among you and so there's this opposite thing happening where we're looking to feel safer and more protected and like the world is ours just as much as it is theirs and that we don't lose half the day in the winter and that it's okay for us to wear whatever clothes we want and sometimes that can elicit a reaction of negativity and of more misogyny and so it can sometimes feel like you can't win this feels like such a negative podcast that i've done right now but that is i think at the root of why this video went so viral it's kind of not really about the video it's about

everything that it represents and it's the tip of the iceberg of all of these things that to end on would say it's obviously not all men that are committing crimes that are treating women awfully that are abusing women but it can be any man and because of the structures at play and because of the way that the world is set up it's very easy for any man to make women feel unsafe and so there has to be an overcorrection on the other end, where we can say with all like good faith that, you know, men fully understand the situation. I think it's terribly boring to have to talk in gender binaries and to talk about things in such a black and white way. Unfortunately, that is where it's at right

now. And I don't know what else we can do as women except keep speaking up. And so I think that's where the tiredness comes from. That's where the fatigues come from. That's where the virality of this clip has come from. We're just waiting for the day when we don't have to speak up every single time. And someone is already thinking about it before we don't have to speak up every single time and someone is already thinking about it before we got the chance to go actually did you know okay well what a heavy episode I want to say I hope you enjoyed that but it probably wasn't that enjoyable listening but maybe it was in some ways interesting again thank you so much as always for giving me your thoughts and for participating. I love talking to you guys and I will see you here next week.

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