Advisory Opinions - Legal Eagles Travel Log: A Gettysburg Anniversary Special

Episode Date: July 6, 2023

In this special episode of Advisory Opinions, Sarah follows Judge Alan Norris, a Sixth Circuit judge, on a trip to Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. The Legal Eagles, a group of Judge Norris' colleagues and law clerks, accompany him on an annual trip to relive the bloodiest battle of the Civil War. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Certain conditions apply. Details at phys.ca. Hi, it's Sarah Isger. This is going to be different. We've got a special episode for the 160th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, which, of course, took place July 1st through 3rd in 1863. It's a collection of recordings that I made on my phone from the road during the Six Circuits Legal Eagles Adventure. That means the audio might be rough at some points. Why do I personally care about this? One, I've always been fascinated with Gettysburg. I went for the 150th anniversary

of the Gettysburg Address back 10 years ago. But also, this trip was more than just about Gettysburg. It was about what the judiciary is, what it thinks of itself. And that's why this will be more of a highlight of Judge Alan Norris, who leads the Legal Eagles trip, and just a cool guy

who I thought you all should get to know. If you like this episode and you want us to do more mini documentaries like this, consider becoming a member of the Dispatch. We want to do a lot more of them, and your support lets us do it. But without further ado, here it is, the special Legal Eagles episode. And we'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsor today, Aura. Ready to win Mother's Day and cement your reputation as the best gift giver in the family? Give the moms in your life an Aura digital picture frame preloaded with decades of family photos. She'll love looking back on your childhood memories and seeing what you're up to today.

Even better, with unlimited storage and an easy to use app, you can keep updating mom's frame with new photos. So it's the gift that keeps on giving. And to be clear, every mom in my life has this frame. Every mom I've ever heard of has this frame. This is my go to gift. My parents love it. I upload photos all the time. I'm just like bored watching TV at the end of the night. I'll hop on the app and put up the photos from the day. It's really easy. Right now, Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. Listeners can save on the perfect gift

by visiting auraframes.com to get $30 off, plus free shipping on their best-selling frame. That's a-u-r-a-frames.com. Use code ADVISORY at checkout to save. Terms and conditions apply. You ready? I was born ready. Welcome to a special episode of Advisory Opinions. I'm Sarah Isger.

A Legal Eagles Explosive. Legal Eagles, of course, is the name of the Sixth Circuit's trip to Gettysburg. To be clear, this isn't a military history podcast on Gettysburg, and we aren't going to debate the South's legal case for secession. Instead, this is the story of how three dozen lawyers ended up in the fields of Gettysburg, and we aren't going to debate the South's legal case for secession. Instead, this is the story of how three dozen lawyers ended up in the fields of Gettysburg through rain and ticks. To understand the answer to that question, you need to get to know Sixth Circuit Judge Alan Norris. First time I remember going to Gettysburg, I'd have been probably 10 years old and my family drove over here in my dad's 1936 DeSoto. If I was 10, it would be near the end of the war. Second war, not the first one.

The only thing I remember about it was that when we hired a guide, he stood outside on the running board. And every time we would come to a stone wall, he would say, made by the farmer, used by the soldier. And my dad kept saying that. I don't remember how many years after that. That was nearly 80 years ago. Judge Norris doesn't look 87. He certainly doesn't act it. And this is keeping me alive. I'm not kidding myself. This is therapeutic. Yeah, love it. But when it comes to legal eagles, for three days, Judge Norris isn't messing around. But when it comes to legal eagles, for three days, Judge Norris isn't messing around. There's homework. Look, it is no fun guiding someone on a battlefield who doesn't know anything.

So all attendees are required, as you know, to read a book. And I give them several suggestions. I was going to say ranging in page length. One is 200 pages. The other is five. Well, you know, some do both, believe it or not. I did see, I did meet a couple who did both. Those people don't have enough work in chambers.

And they have to watch the movie Gettysburg. A lot of them did that as a chamber. It's a four-hour movie, a little under. About four and a half. But he's not just your tour guide. He's your general. I still say the highlight of the tour for these law clerks is getting to hear me bark at their judges. Roll call starts promptly at 7.30 a.m.

We'll do a roll call. Sutton Sharpshooter. Sharpshooters, copy. Chris Snipers, copy. Mighty McKay, copy. Radler Raiders, copy. The Pars Troopers. I'm looking at them and they're outside the truck.

The par troopers are missing a driver. The par troopers say you can court-martial them later, but that they will catch up if we share our location over text when we arrive. They're coming out of the hotel now. We'll wait. Thank you. Okay, Operation Shadow. His former law clerk and now Sixth Circuit colleague Judge Chad Radler has seen it all up close. Judge Radler was also my ride. How much behind the scenes do you get to see of what Judge Norris and his wife Carol put into this trip? I mean, this takes months. It takes months.

I suspect they'll start planning for next year's trip, maybe next week. Yeah. Two weeks from now. They do scouting trips. There's books here. I mean, the walkie-talkies are numbered. We all have our own badges. Yes.

We all have our own materials. They plan every meal. He has note cards that are bound as well, I noticed. It's not just note cards, it's bound note cards. Yes, yes. Although quite a bit of it is also from memory. I don't think anyone has stumped him yet. You cannot pay someone to do the job that Ellen and Carol Norris do.

Hockey hockey's off. And that means we're getting out of the car. Norris' love for this place and for the union oozes out of every pore. My favorite rock formation at Devil's Den is Duck Rock. But it's not just Gettysburg. He loves legal eagles. He loves imparting his hard-earned knowledge to the young law clerks. And he clearly finds joy in bringing along and occasionally barking at his colleagues

who join him. He credits Chief Judge Jeff Sutton as a co-founder. Judge Sutton has been on every trip. Some years, he's even a part of the program. Last year, I gave a lunch presentation about the Confederate Constitution, which is pretty wild. And if you read it, you realize that Judge Norris is quite correct that, sure, union was important, but it really is about slavery. And when you look at the Confederacy's Constitution, you realize they borrowed almost everything straight from the U.S. Constitution. Guess which is the Constitution in world history that first innovated the idea of the line item veto, which is actually a really good idea. That was the Confederate Constitution. So that's, I think, the only thing I'm afraid that there's a legacy that's kind of worth celebrating. But the key areas in which they change are all slavery related points. Clearly, slavery was central to it. And I think that really upsets Judge Norris.

I will say in nine years, he's gotten more that way. I think he gets very frustrated with the lost cause story and that irritates him. But Judge Sutton is quick to dismiss his co-founder title. And he lists you as a co-founder. That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I will say I have one part in the story which I'm proud of. When I first came on the court, Alan had just gone senior, both from Columbus, so got to know each other well. Often when we got together, I'd ask what he and his wife Carol had been up to, usually as a vacation. And their vacations, I kid you not, were all essentially the same. the same. They would find a book of old Civil War photos and say the place where Stonewall Jackson's horse was fed before the Battle of Chancellorsville, hypothetically. And the vacation was go find that particular tree, watering station, corner of this field.

So after hearing about this, I realized how much he loved the Civil War and I realized how much he started coming to Gettysburg. And so we urged him to take us on a tour, actually, is how we got going on this. So I'm not a co-founder. I might have helped with the idea. I was an instigator and selfishly asked him to take us on a tour. They're very on time. The judge occasionally barks a little bit when he wants us to listen or move promptly.

It does have some discipline to it, I would say. I mean, this just takes an enormous amount of work. I would be surprised if they spend less than a thousand hours each for each trip, because each trip they add new things. So today, our first day, two or three of those visits, things I've never seen before in nine years, basically has the whole thing written out of script. And then, you know, he goes off the script quite often, as you probably also noticed. Lots of great stories.

I think he could have been a pretty good American history teacher. Clearly. The purpose of the trip is never lost on Judge Sutton. My clerks hear about it because they know we've been doing it for a while. They know it's just a fun trip to do together. It's quite intense. You know, we're up at 630 and... There's they're ticks we're not done till 8 30 it can rain it can be hot um but they it's for most of them i think the best experience in the year partly because

they're bonding being with other chambers but i think they they see in it what alan and carol see in it which is this is just a really striking memorial. But I think he thinks, as I definitely think, that lawyers have a big role to play in society, not just from the representing people in court. But they're the ones that supposedly know the rules. They're the ones that know the history behind the rules. They're the ones people I'd like to think would look to to say, you know, how do we deal with this particular conflict and problem? And what a great experience for a bunch of young lawyers to spend three days thinking about a time in history where things did go sideways with the contentiousness that, you know, they couldn't figure a way around it.

Maybe it was one of these inevitabilities given the, you know, the sins in the original constitution. But I love it that we've got a bunch of awesome lawyers that now they're not Maybe it was one of these inevitabilities given the, you know, the sins in the original Constitution. But I love it that we've got a bunch of awesome lawyers that now they're not going to forget this experience. Ideally, it's helpful to them, not just as lawyers, but maybe citizens where I wonder if we lawyers could do a better job helping us in our some of our current debates. The camaraderie and mutual respect between the judges is obvious. Judge Norris even calls him General Sutton. General Sutton, you may move your unit forward and may God go with you. Judge Norris has spent 40 years on the bench, six years as an Ohio State judge before President

Reagan nominated him to the Sixth Circuit in 1986. It comes time for the president to call me and congratulate me, you know, and ask me if I won the job. So the president's secretary calls Chambers, I was on the state court then, and tells my secretary to be ready for my call the next day. So, you know, we all come into chambers, and the local press is all huddled around out in the ante room, and he didn't call. But then he didn't call the next day, Friday. Didn't call Saturday or Sunday, of course.

Didn't even call Monday. And then suddenly the phone rang in my chambers. I was on the john. So, you know, my secretary was pounding loudly. She couldn't get me out. The president's on the line, she said. So out I come and, you know, we had this very nice little pleasant call. It was so nice of her to do that.

And so then the press comes bursting in. And the first one is, Norris, what were you doing on the john? You know, I said, look, it's been six days. I had to go. After 40 years, he may be an idealist about the American experiment, but he's a realist about the law, at least when you're on the battlefield. This is a really good example of how we lawyers benefit society. It's 1880, and they want to place a monument on the battlefield. So they want to put it here on the line. And Colonel Batchelder, he's the one who decides where monuments go,

he says, you weren't ever there. But we deserve it. Honest to God, they sued, the 72nd veterans sued in state court. Oh, state court. Oh, state court. They sued to get their damn monument where they wanted it, where they'd never been. Do we have a vote to see if they had standing?

We don't worry about that in state court. Alright. Anyhow, they win. In the Pennsylvania, Supreme Court says,, yeah, it doesn't matter whether you're there or not. I mean, what's park rules? We're a state court, Supreme. It's a fraud. But it's beautiful.

Since Judge Norris took senior status, which is an option for judges who hit retirement age but aren't ready to hang up their robes, he decided to make Gettysburg his thing. Well, his thing and his wife Carol's thing. Carol, you see, does it all backwards and in heels, as they say. I wanted to, I don't want to use the word specialized, but I wanted to really understand one part of the Civil War. You can't understand that war. It's just too big. We loved Gettysburg. Carol would move there tomorrow if I let her.

But Pennsylvania is not in the Sixth Circuit, so I can't have that. Let's talk a little bit about legal eagles. Where'd the idea come from? Y'all had been coming to Gettysburg already, multiple times a year, it sounds like. As many as five. So why'd you let anyone else come with you? I didn't. They're hiding your luggage. so you know he knew what I was doing and so he just asked me would you take my chambers over to Gettysburg you know I guess bonding or whatever they call it so you know I mean it took me all 15 seconds to say yes

for me it was an opportunity to understand Gettysburg better than I had. And I knew some spots pretty well here and none there. So it forced me to be able to follow the Battle of Cronolunchly. Three whole days of battle. It is just overwhelming, but it is really interesting and just really fun. Every year there's more to add, more to learn, more to share. Good landmark is the only naked belly button on the boat. Tammany was a political club

in New York City. It became noted for its corruption. But there were boys that were recruited from that area of New York City. And so that's the monument they put up afterwards. Now, who in the hail was Chief Tammany? Made up, you know, just made up. But they wanted to put him on their monument anyway. But they wanted to put him on their monument anyway. So it has the distinction of displaying the only naked belly buckle in the entire interview. So keep your shirts on. We don't want to break the record.

It's not just the monuments, but the lay of the land itself. Turn around. The only thing left that you can see is the White House. If you can't see the Union line, it can't see you. Okay? So these guys don't get shot at for more than half of their way to the copse of trees. All right, Armistead. Where is Armistead? It's where you began your charge. It extended clear across to the Spangler house. So they came out two lines and marched across that field. Good luck to you boys.

Did I mention that Judge Norris can even tell you and marched across that field. Good luck to you boys. Did I mention that Judge Norris can even tell you which trees were around that day on July 1863? Here's Judge John Bush, another first-time Legal Eagles attendee. I've warmed up. We're inside again. My toes are drying off, and yeah, it's great. Being able to be with most of my clerks and my son traveling around the battlefield, learning about new terms such as the witness trees and salient and pop-ups.

And the Legal Eagles exclusives along the way. Who got the furthest? The North Carolinians finally were able to plant a monument there in 1986. They said, we got the furthest. Mississippi got to plant one just like it, closer to that white barn, just a bit further. In 1988, I know who got the first. It was Daniel Boone Taylor. Can you write that in your memories?

Daniel Boone Taylor. How do I know that? North Carolinians, well, they're coming up this way. And you know, their collar bearers get shot down. This young kid, Daniel Boone Taylor, of course, he instinctively picks it up, starts up here in a dead run. There's a Union line there. Oh, jeez. So he gets about this far, and he turns around. There's nobody following. So he looks around, and they're not going to shoot him, for God's sake.

He's a kid. He's way out front. So they motioned to him, pull him up over the wall. But you can note that down. It's illegal. All right. Feel free to ask questions. Question.

We have on both sides of us two different kinds of fences. Do you know why across the battlefields we're using this zigzaggy fence instead of the standard one? You know something? I do. You know something? I do. You have border fences and you have temporary fences. This would be a border fence. There's never a moment wasted.

When you're driving to the next location, it's walkie-talkies on. To our left, through that grove of trees, is the bush farm. We'll be passing the famous sniper's den. It's pretty clear that some Confederates did build up rocks in there. And then as we turn, you'll come to a pretty shaggy tree that looks alive in the wind. How it survived the bombardment from both sides, I'll never know. And in between walkie-talkie narration, somehow each Chambers is still hard at work together in their vehicles. You've still been working while you're here. You just handed out some edits, I i noticed to a clerk in the car um just to be

clear i wasn't driving podcasting and editing an opinion all at the same time oh that would have been quite impressive but uh yes uh we got some things that are in process so we want to keep them keep them moving along uh do you think this trip informs one's view of the law? I mean, I think any study of history certainly does that. And there are probably a lot of both legal and just other principles that you can draw from Gettysburg. I mean, history is inescapable. And if you think about the work we're doing today, foundationally, had the war gone different, we wouldn't be doing it or be doing it in a different format.

So this really makes you appreciate history and the great sacrifice that so many people gave to save our country. While you flip through your spiral-bound battlefield companion of maps and photographs that Judge Norris and Carol have prepared, Judge Norris will add first-person accounts. That small regiment is right there. Here's what Epba Hummington said about it. My regiment formed in the swales in front of Spangler's Woods and laid down during the artillery duel, 205 strong. Now that's a small regiment by this time. Five of them were killed in the artillery

duel and 200 responded promptly and bravely to the order to charge. After the charge was over, he was wounded in the leg by the artillery barrage. After the charge was over, I hobbled out to see who was left of my faithful and gallant regiment. and Gallant regiment. Only 10 of those who went in responded to the roll call. 190 out of 200 were gone. Biggest charge. What are we talking about? Carnage. So we know in Hunton's own words what it was like to experience that. While the attack was getting ready to start, Porter Alexander, you'll remember as the head of Longstreet's artillery, is talking with General Ambrose Wright. This is from Alexander's memoirs. He's talking to Ambrose Wright. Well, I know you broke the Union line yesterday.

You think you can do it again? Wright paused. You think you can do it again? Right pause. Well, it's not as hard to get up there as it looks. Trouble is, stay in there. The whole Yankee army is just there in a bunch. Well, it was. In fact, there on the other side of the ridge, General Sedgwick, 14,000.

It's hard to put into words. Judge Amul Thapar was a first-time Legal Eagles attendee. It's amazing. I mean, having Alan Norris here with the knowledge he has is incredible. And then he brings speakers like we heard from tonight that explained everything about the hospitals at Gettysburg. I mean, what a treat for all of us, for our law clerks, for all these people to get to come and hear from these people that know so much. You can come to the battle. You can take the audio tour. You can pay a tour guide and get a limited tour. We got Sunday night, which you left out, which was amazing. We got all day today from 7 a.m. this morning until right now. What time is it? 8.30 or 9 o'clock? We can't even get ice cream anymore. And then we go all day tomorrow. I mean, it doesn't get better than that. And it's fascinating.

So do you think there's anything particular about being a lawyer that makes Gettysburg more relevant, more interesting? Well, I think the history is really interesting. I know I don't want to upset the historians, but this is one of, not the, but one of the pivotal battles of the Civil War. And I think because of the Reconstruction Amendments and how much they mean to lawyers, how much they mean to the country as a whole, but how much we focus on it as judges and the legal profession as a whole, I think this battle, if it turns out differently, when you're here and you're learning from real historians that know the battle,

you see how close it was to turning out differently. You see Dan Sickles making mistakes and they could have pivoted around him and exposed the Union flank. And you learn all that. You see just how close our country could have been to being in a much different place. If Lee wins this battle, we're looking at a completely different war, maybe two separate countries.

Judge David McKeague is a Legal Eagles regular. Fourth trip. I saw a tick in the car, so I'm a little worried about that. You keep coming. I do. I love doing this with Al Norris and the enthusiasm and the effort and the dedication he puts into this. I learn a lot and then I promptly forget it. So what happens when I go the next year is then I relearn what I've forgotten in the meantime. But on top of that, this is just a great opportunity for the clerks to get to know other judges, get to know other clerks. And so I like every aspect of this. I'm eating a brownie. Thank you for asking.

But you don't have to be a circuit judge to come along. Youngest member of Legal Eagles 2023. What do you think? Well, at first I was, I'm not going to lie, a little bored by the idea of going on a two-day trip to Gettysburg, as most 15-year-olds would be. But I did find some parts interesting. I liked seeing the cannons. That was actually, that was really cool. And the pink cyclorama thing.

That was also really cool. Was it worth missing out on casual day, pajama day at school? Pajama day at school, oh. No comment. I'm going to go no comment on that gonna comment on that one very good very good we're glad you were here i'm glad i was here too i think my dad appreciated it though there were some unwanted visitors as well okay i'm here with us the par trooper that's that was your battle of name correct that is correct okay and um look we were in the car behind you and it just

looked like there were tick relatedrelated problems in your vehicle. Everyone, I think, was very concerned about ticks, but there were flailing limbs out the window. How bad did it get? I would say we had three to four in the vehicle, possibly more outside the vehicle. So lots of tick problems. Now that we're back,

do you feel like you've been able to do a full tick check? You're good? I think we're all safe, thankfully. Have you confirmed with Judge Zepar that he's fine? I have not. But we're waiting for him now for dinner, and hopefully he will confirm that all is well.

Even lunchtime back at the Best Western isn't wasted. Judge Norris takes a break to eat his brown bag turkey sandwich and Judge Ed Sargis takes over. OK, Judge, you gave this incredible lunchtime talk about West Virginia seceding from secession. And we can't do the whole thing. And I get that. But could you tell us how states are admitted to the union? Article 4 of the Constitution, and how West Virginia, how they did it? The Constitution has a simple paragraph that anticipates new states. It says that, first of all, new states can be created from territories. New states can be created from existing states with the proviso that the legislatures of an existing state have to approve and the Congress of the United States has to approve. So that's

where we start. With regard to West Virginia, the western part of the state, west of the Alleghenies, was pretty much anti-slavery. They didn't want to join the Confederacy. When the whole state decided to secede, that part of Virginia declared itself the only lawful government of Virginia because they weren't in rebellion and they declared they were the only legitimate government of the whole state and they consented to their own separation from the state. So it sounds a little tricky on the one hand.

When you drill through different provisions of the constitution you can see how there's probably a sound basis for the idea even though it does again sound a little bit like a sleight of hand i mean this worked west virginia got to do this they're their own state i don't think a lot of people think about how west virginia became a state to begin with or the sort of let's it's shady it's creative Well, to quote Abraham Lincoln, he said, look, our enemies are going to say we're against secession unless it's our secession. But his point was a part of the state is trying to secede in support of the Constitution is one thing, where the other part of Virginia is trying to secede in violation of the Constitution. That's another thing. So when you see it in that prism, I think it starts to feel a little more constitutional.

How important was this to the war? Very, because what became the new state of West Virginia included the most important railroad line in the country, and that was the breakthrough technology for the Civil War. It also included telegraph lines that were laid along the rail lines, and that was the second big breakthrough in technology. If you look at a map of West Virginia, had it stayed part of the Confederacy, meaning part of Virginia, then the Confederacy would have bordered big parts of Ohio, big parts of Pennsylvania, would have been another big part of Confederacy bordering Maryland, not very far from Washington, D.C., when you get out to the eastern side, which includes Martinsburg and Harpers Ferry. So geographically, strategically, it would have made a difference.

I wouldn't argue that it would have changed the outcome, but it might have. And to be blunt, the railroad, the B&O ran from Baltimore to Wheeling, Virginia now West Virginia, and it was fought over continually through the war. There were parts of the railroad destroyed by Confederate forces, taken over for a while, taken back by

the Union. So it was contested territory through most of the war. And you literally wrote the book on this. Will you plug your book? The book is Seceding from Secession. I can tell you I'm not planning my retirement based on the book royalties, but it's been a lot of fun. I wrote it with two other people, Eric Wittenberg, who's a well-known Civil War historian, and the person I had the pleasure to work with, Penny Barak. And she happens to be a career clerk with me. And is this your first League of Eagles trip? No, this is my fourth.

Fourth League of Eagles trip. And, you know, you clearly have a depth of knowledge about the Civil War. But does walking Gettysburg with Judge Norris inform that? Oh, yes. I mean, first of all, this site is so amazing. And Alan Norris, the judge, knows so much about Gettysburg. I don't think anybody will ever equal him that I will come across. So he makes it so interesting. And it is a moving place. There's so many monuments here. There's so much to see.

And you really get a sense of history here. This is a place where American history was changed. You're the only district judge on the trip, and they've been giving you a lot of grief for that. Is there anything you'd like to say to circuit judges who might be listening to this about the superiority of the first line of defense? Sure. Well, let's be honest. I'm a working judge compared to the other judges. We actually do cases.

We actually see people. We do jury trials. We sentence people. We do jury trials. We sentence people. We don't fly over dead carcasses and pick them over. So not that I have anything against court of appeals judges. Let me just say, there are many people who question the need for a court of appeals. But with the judges who are here, I can honestly say, assuming a need for a court of appeals, this is a good group of judges.

High praise from a district judge. Thank you, Judge Sargis. Thank you. It's hard to pick any one monument as the highlight of this trip. There's too much to love. But if the point is to get on the ground and see firsthand how the union was saved,

you have to walk Pickett's Charge. Law clerks and judges alike marched just under a mile to the union's defensive line. But the cars were still back on the Confederate side, now a mile back. We are now retreating. This is like an en banc vote. Judge Sargis sitting by designation.

All the Article III judges are having to walk back to the cars to get their clerks. This is real leadership. What is going on here? Sarah, how did we lose this battle? Judge, what do you think? How many legal eagles is this for you? I'm a district judge, so I'm not paid to think, first of all. That's why we have a court of appeals.

Oh, fighting words. Those are fighting words. I'm a district judge, so I'm not paid to think, first of all. That's why we have a court of appeals. Fighting words. Those are fighting words. How many pickets charges is this for you? I think this is four. Four pickets charges. How many pickets retreats have you got? I think we always had cars on the other side, to be honest with you. What happened this year? I told these guys it's like going to a 5K.

This is what happens when Sutton becomes chief. Yeah. We woke up early to beat the rain and so far so good. No rain. No rain. Have you done legal eagles in inclement weather? Yes, we've done this in the rain before. It's always in May so that it's not snowing.

Now here's the thing that just came out. When they did it, it was 100 degrees. Yeah, this is nicer. Retreat. Not very well organized. So yes, Legal Eagles is the story of the Battle of Gettysburg. The Gettysburg Address was recited. The what-ifs were pondered. You can't look out on such beauty, waving fields of grass as swallows dart past one another under a blue sky with little puffs of white clouds, and not feel the unfathomable reality that you are standing on the ground where America's original sin of slavery came so close to ending this experiment in liberty and self-government. No other country has survived with freedom as a basis for this long. I just, so you come out here where there were 160,000 young men fighting over the issue of union.

Would this experiment continue or was it going to fail? fighting over the issue of union. Would this experiment continue or was it going to fail? And it would have failed, of course, if the Confederates had won. It would have been horrible. We need to understand that. I think it's important for every American to understand how important this system is that we have and that it be continued. And that's all this was. That's what this battle was.

Are we going to keep this or are we going to let it go? We have, I think, some conversation going on about a national divorce. And I'm thinking, didn't we try that once? Almost 700 soldiers, just soldiers, 700,000 soldiers died in the Civil War. Lee lost third his army here and still fought on for almost two years. It's a lesson. But it's also more than that. It's the story of Judge Alan Norris,

his wife Carol, their love of history and community and the law and the hope of passing something on to the next generation of American lawyers. And he's not going anywhere. You know something? I got really good genes. Both my parents lived into their 90s, and I'm going to be here.

Thank you for your service, Judge Norris. Judge LaParr, you said your biggest fear was having wet feet at the end of this. Yes, I have wet feet. So do I. So I think the rest of the day is going to be in slippers. Don't screw it up. We all got across that way. You know, I would like the record to reflect that it's true we've had a little bit of a challenge getting back, a little bit of a challenge coordinating. This was the first time we've had a reporter along the way. Maybe we weren't thinking through this. You think that distracted you to taking

us through a creek? He's now going to call our podcast Soggy Feet. No, we're in a causation correlation situation. I'm with you there, Sarah. I'm not going to do a cause thing. That's really hard. We're not doing Paul's graph on the walk? I never understood Paul's graph. Still don't want to. I like rule against perpetuities. Rippling ponds?

Yeah. Something made those fireworks go off in the train station. Well, yeah, that's true. It's a big setup.