Afford Anything - Creating Happiness At Work, with Julie Winkle Giulioni

Episode Date: August 10, 2022

#396: International best selling author and leadership speaker, Julie Winkle Giulioni, talks through a multidimensional career framework that features eight dimensions of career development. She spells out how to apply the dimensions of contribution, competence, connection, confidence, challenge, contentment, choice and climb to different parts of your professional life, whether that’s assessing your current job, navigating a conversation with your superior or setting yourself up for the next progression. In this episode, we cover: 01:15: Introducing the topic of optimizing engagement at work 05:02: The “Why” behind the Great Resignation 07:28: How to feel like you’re making a true contribution 14:01:The need to increase competence for growth 16:03: Solving for boredom with your superior 23:16: Forging connections in the era of remote work 32:18: Enhancing confidence and imposter syndrome 38:36: Appreciating the role of contentment in the workplace 39:18: The dimensions of choice and climb Enjoy! For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/episode396 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything but not everything. Every choice that you make is a trade-off against something else, and that doesn't just apply to your money. That applies to any limited resource that you need to manage, like your time, your focus, your energy, your attention. Saying yes to something implicitly means accepting the trade-offs, the opportunity costs. And that opens up two questions. First, what matters most?

Second, how do you make decisions? how do you actually execute upon that which matters most? Answering these two questions is a lifetime practice, and that's what this podcast is here to explore and facilitate. My name is Paula Pan. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast, and today Julie Winkle Giuliani joins us to talk about how to re-engage with your work. Many people who are listening to this are bored at work.

Face it, work is boring sometimes. Can we all admit that? I work for myself and even I get bored, so I can't imagine how millions of other people must feel. So what do we do when we're bored? What do we do when we're mentally checked out? How do we re-engage? And, for that matter, how do we know whether

our relationship with our jobs is a relationship that's worth fighting for or whether it's time to break up? Pull the plug. Quit. Take that early retirement. or that midlife career change. When do you stay and double down and re-engage? And when do you walk away?

We're going to talk about all of that in this upcoming interview. We're also going to talk about the dimensions of career satisfaction, which include your sense of contribution, how much of a difference are you making. It includes your feelings of competence. Do you feel like you're capable, like you've got skills and expertise? It includes your confidence. in your own talents and abilities. It includes the connection that you have with colleagues, clients, everyone you interact with.

It includes whether or not you're challenged at your job, whether or not you feel as though you have choices about how, where, when, and with whom you work, and your overall sense of contentment. Those are the dimensions of career satisfaction. So we're going to elaborate on each of these dimensions and talk about how you can fight for that, be proactive about that. If you want to re-engage with your work, how do you tactically, actionably do that? Because even if you are planning on taking an early retirement, it's probably not going to happen

tomorrow. You're probably going to be at your job for at least a few more years. So how do you make the most of it? Julie Winkle-Juliani is a former university professor and department chair who is now an expert in workplace growth and development. She's the author of two books about job satisfaction. The first one is called Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go. And the second one's called Promotions Are So Yesterday.

Her first book became an international bestseller that was translated into seven languages. And she has been featured by a variety of publications including The Economist and Inc. Magazine, which named her as a top 100 leadership speaker. Here she is, Julie Giuliani. Hi, Julie. Hey, Paula. How are you? I am terrific.

How are you today? I am great. Julie, I want to talk to you about ways in which people can reengage with their work. Many of the people who are listening to this are unhappy in their jobs, regardless of their age, regardless of the number of years that they've spent in their profession, whether they're 25, 35, 45, 45, 55, there are a lot of people who perhaps once loved their, they're. their industry, their career, their job, but no longer do. From some people, the answer is to retire early or to make a midlife career change, but for others, there is potentially the option that this could be salvaged, that they could re-fall in love with the work that they do.

Let's talk tactically and specifically about how to do that. Yes, let's do that because there's such a huge opportunity, isn't it? there when you think about the millions and millions of people who are making very different choices around the work that they're choosing to do or not do in some cases. The great resignation, the great reshuffle, the great reevaluation certainly has given us all a chance to reevaluate that relationship with work. And before we go into ways in which people can re-engage with their work, why is it that the great resignation, the great reshuffle is happening right now? Well, the last couple of years, it's certainly changed all of us forever. We've had to really dig deep, go off,

in some cases, by ourselves to think more critically about the work that we're doing, the life that we're living. In many cases, when we were sent to all corners of the world away from the workplace, some of those trappings of work, like the great food and the ping pong table or even just catching up with people in the hallway. That was all stripped away and all we have left is the work itself to look at. And then there's just the reprioritizing, the rebalancing of life that many of us engaged in during that period of time. So folks are looking for their jobs to do different jobs as we come back into whatever the next new abnormal is. So remote work produced fewer fringe benefits at the office, which then caused people to

re-evaluate the work itself? Yeah, the work was kind of laid bare there, wasn't it? That was all we had for a period of time. So it gave us a chance to maybe look at that work in a more clear-eyed way and make decisions about the level of satisfaction that that gives without some of the extras that might have distracted us from that. You know, the other thing that comes out loud and clear is folks are leaving employers for opportunities where they see greater growth potential. Whether it's learning or development or career advancement, we crave the ability to keep growing and learning. And for too many people, where they are doesn't feel like a place where that can happen. You mentioned that people crave growth.

There are a multitude of ways that people can find growth within their work. And we're going to talk about many of these different ways during this interview. Let's start with just one of the ways that people can experience that sense of growth. And that is from making a contribution within their company or their organization. How exactly does one go about feeling as though they're making a contribution and not just feeling as though they're a cog in a machine? Oh, that's a great question. And so contribution was one of the most interesting. ways that we can find growth and development in our work. My global research found it was actually

number one in terms of how we want to learn and grow. And so contributions about tapping that deep human need to make a difference, to step up, to be of service, to live on purpose. And so there are countless ways we can find expression for contribution in the workplace. I mean, we're contributing every day, right? The growth piece of it, that's what takes. takes deliberate attention. So what happens so frequently, I'm sure it's your experience too, Paula, when you look back on some of your most profound learning, it was those times you were contributing more than was required where you stepped up and beyond mirror expectations. And so frequently we only see that in the rear view mirror. So we're talking about here is how can we be

intentional, look through the windshield and plan out. Okay, I'm going to step up and I'm going to take on that project or step in for someone who's on leave or take on a void, you know, this persistent issue that's been niggling around the organization. I'm going to step into those situations. I'm going to give a lot in the process, but what am I going to get back? And so it's about contracting with, you know, having really over conversations with one's own manager or supervisor. about, you know, when I step up and do this, I look forward to learning these skills. I want to develop this competency and walk away really good at this. I want to have expanded my network to include these stakeholders or these executives or

whomever so that contribution becomes a two-way street. As I'm giving, I'm getting something back in terms of my growth and my development. So this sounds to me, because I'm imagining for a lot of people who are listening to this, this sounds like more work. If every day at your job, you're doing data entry into an Excel spreadsheet, and now there's the onus is on you to take on somebody else's project or to initiate some new project, that becomes additive to your existing workload rather than substitutive. So wouldn't that just mean longer hours?

Well, I suppose it depends upon the nature of the work and the agreements. that you have with your supervisor. You know, when you take on a new or bigger or broader project, it may mean that something has to fall off your plate. I mean, that just may be the nature of the beast. In other cases, you know, we as individuals realize it's valuable enough. What I have to gain is valuable enough to where I want to give a little bit more of, you know, my discretionary time.

It's three minutes a day that I have left that I'm not already giving. And so it's certainly a choice to be made. What should a person do if they find themselves unmotivated to make greater contributions to their workplace because they fundamentally don't believe in the mission of their workplace? Yeah, that's a very tough position to be in, isn't it? I guess two things occurred to me. One is to really step back and to test the mission. Sometimes we get so caught up in the day-to-day grind that we even forget what the mission is. I mean, you're just pushing the papers across the desk and putting the deliverables out the door.

And it's easy to lose that thread to the big picture. Think about creating that breadcrumb trail from what I do to what my team does to what the division, the organization, and how it ultimately serves the stakeholders, the customers, the world as a broader entity. If we can't, you know, make that kind of a connection and if we still want to work with the organization that we're working with, then sometimes what we have to do is find a place where we can make a meaningful contribution, where we can live on purpose within that organization. So depending upon, you know, the organization and where the opportunity, lie, is there a way to lean into sustainability efforts, for instance, if we've got,

you know, a lot of energy around saving the planet? Are there ways that we can lean into what the organization is doing on that? Are there tangential ways to contribute and be a part of an organization, or at least part of the organization that you do feel good about? And I guess the final piece of it is really if that mission is that distasteful, if you really can't wake up in the morning and feel good about going and doing it, then maybe it is time to make a change. And gosh knows, this is the perfect time to be entertaining those kinds of changes. plenty of other organizations with really juicy appetizing missions looking for great talent. Right. Yes, there's a labor shortage right now, record low unemployment and a labor shortage.

So it is a very good time to make a job transition. Yeah. And to be able to carve out in the process the job that you want. Employers are more than ever, you know, trying to figure out how to create the condition that will capture the hearts and the minds and the imaginations of the talent that's out there. So it really is the perfect time to, as one's interviewing for a new role, to lay out what your life's purpose is, to test how does it align with what this organization is doing? And once the glow has come off the job, how am I really going to feel about doing that?

And where can I express my sense of purpose and contribution over the long haul? So when it comes to contribution, the concept of contribution in the workplace, it sounds as though there are two factors to consider. One is the mission of the organization itself and the other is your role within that. Oh, well said. Yeah. What a great way of just netting it out. Yes. All right. Let's talk about another closely related concept and one that also aligns with the human need for growth, and that is competence, you know, achieving greater levels of competence. Yeah, it's so central to life, right? I mean, we just go through life, constantly growing, learning, adding to our bag of tricks

and skills and the magic that we can bring to those around us. And it's central to the workplace as well. In fact, its need is more vividly expressed in the workplace. When you look at things like the half-life of a technical skill being four years now, when the Institute for the Future of Work says that 85% of the jobs we're going to be doing in the year 2030 haven't been invented. It is just so clear that if we're not constantly upping our gain, expanding our skills, looking around the corner and anticipating what's going to be needed next and getting ready for that,

you know, there's a very real possibility of irrelevance in the short term. And so confidence is all about that commitment that we have to building those critical capabilities and skills and the expertise that we need, not just to perform well now and thrive, you know, in the present, but to really be ready for what we know is an uncertain future. So what should a person do if they possess the intellectual curiosity, the love of lifelong learning, I mean, people who self-select as people who, people who, listen to podcasts generally are people who value lifelong learning. That's why you listen to a podcast in the first place. What should a person do then if they have that value, they have that desire, and yet, day after day, the work that they're doing doesn't challenge them. Yeah, they definitely need to take action. How specifically? By having an overt conversation with one's manager or supervisor. managers and supervisors understand that boredom is one of the most destructive and dangerous

emotions that we can experience. I mean, nothing good comes from being bored and feeling like a cog in the wheel. And the truth is most organizations, most leaders would tell you there are so many challenges just sitting there waiting for somebody to grab them. And so, you know, it's kind of cliche, but we all need to own our own careers. Nobody's going to care about our growth as much as we do, you know, or maybe our moms. And so we need to take responsibility for reaching out and saying, this is no longer interesting to me. How do you diplomatically say that? You know, do you go to your supervisor and say, hey, I'm bored at my job and I'm no longer being challenged? I mean, you can't just say that directly, can you?

Well, I guess it depends upon the nature of the relationship you've got. I've had that conversation with bosses where I felt like I had the basics of the job under my belt. And I was performing well. I mean, all evidence pointed to that. And my brain was just getting pickled doing it. And so the conversation, because we had that kind of a relationship, I was able to say, I got this. and if we don't figure out something else that's going to challenge me, I'm going to get bored and find something else to do. And so a lot of it does boil down to the relationship.

But I guess the other piece of it, Paula, is I think a lot of it has to do with the intention that we bring to these conversations. You know, if the intention really is to problem solve, to figure out something that's going to make this job, something that I love and want to show up to. every day. Managers, people in general, pick up on the intention, even if the conversation is clunky and feels blunt and isn't as elegant and nuanced as we might want it to be. At the end of the day, there are very few managers who want to keep people small, for whom it's in their best interest to keep people small. It's in a manager's best interest to help people grow to their greatest capacity and be able to contribute everything that they have to offer. And so when, as a As employees, we approach our managers with the spirit of wanting to do that.

We're talking some serious alignment there. What should a person do? And I'll give an example for my own life. When they want to make a contribution and develop greater levels of competence, the response that they get from the higher ups is essentially, if you want to take that on as an additional workload on top of your existing job, go for it. but also we're not going to give you any resources. And so the example from my own life, before I started this podcast, before I started to afford

anything, I used to be a newspaper reporter. And I one day went to the managing editor of my paper and I said, hey, I think this newspaper should have a podcast. And the editor of the paper, the managing editor, said, I think that's a great idea. if in addition to everything you're already doing, you want to also take that on. Great, you can do that. But we're not going to provide you with any help. Not even a microphone, no recording equipment, no mixer, no software.

I mean, there are certain costs associated with starting a podcast. Back then, the costs were higher than they are today because today podcasts are more ubiquitous. So startup prices have come down. But I mean, just that response, we won't even buy you 100. dollar microphone, right? That's essentially a way of saying, we won't go out of our way to stop you, but we're not supporting you either. And you're probably not going to like this response, Paula, but look at where it got you. I quit. Yeah, I quit. It was the fire that needed to be lit under you, but it also pushed you, you know, it was that challenge and you were going to go and you were going to

figure it out and look at you today with an award-winning, hugely successful podcast and full business under your belt. So there's part of me that wants to say thank you to that manager because we would know the Paula that we know without that experience. At the same time, it's kind of stinky. I mean, there's no way around it. That is not leadership excellence by any stretch of the imagination. And even if you've got no budget to be able to throw at someone, how you say, oh, my gosh, Paula, that's the greatest idea. You're going to be so great at this. We don't have any money to do this. But I'll be your first guest and let's use my iPhone. And, you know, there are ways to express the same sentiment in a fashion that leaves the other

person feeling motivated and engaged and really inspired to move forward. And I'm sorry you didn't have that experience. But I'm happy that it was the experience that got you to where you are today. And that's going to be the case. Resources are limited. Money, time, equipment, it's all finite. And there are going to be lots of times when no is the answer. And so when the resources aren't there or when the external support doesn't exist for the growth that someone wants to engage in, then we have to make it an inside job as individuals who are deeply committed to our continuing growth. What we have to do is figure out how can I mind the situation I'm in to extract as much value out of that as possible. and, you know, it sounds so puny, but just ending every day in reflection around what did I learn today?

What can I do today that I couldn't do last week? Just really being mindful about how you approach the work that you're doing. I mean, it doesn't cost anything. If I want to become, you know, more influential, if I ultimately want a more senior position in the organization, and I know the influence management is going to be a key skill. It doesn't cost anything for me to be intentional about how I collaborate with others, for me to set a goal for my next meeting to ask more questions or draw ideas out of the person or whatever it might be.

It costs literally nothing other than my own attention to my learning. And so everyone has the potential to grow and learn when we start thinking about doing it in a mindful sort of way. Speaking of growth, in addition to contribution and competence, one of the other ways that people grow is through connection. And connection for a lot of people has dissipated now that so many of us are working remotely. It used to be for many of the people who are listening that they would go into the office. they'd see people face to face, they'd have a water cooler gossip. How do you form connection in an age of remote work? Yeah.

It really has been an interesting couple of years. It's forced us to, in many cases, redefine what connection even means. You know, I'm older than you are. So, you know, my historical thoughts about connection were, you know, all about being physically together. and then, you know, the telephone, and then we've overlaid the video. And now, you know, we're redefining connection to include Slack and text messaging and I am and whatever. It's really caused us to think about the fundamental nature of connection. You know, as human beings, one of our psychological needs that we bring to the workplace is the need to connect.

And so the ability to build meaningful relationships, expand our network, develop a sense of community, enjoy greater visibility is really sort of an essential human need that we have. And so as we've had to transition from the co-located work into a virtual setting, it's forced a lot of us to have to up our game in terms of just communication in general. When the quality of it might be a little bit compromised by the medium, I think many folks who are finding success are finding that maybe they need more quantity. You know, they may need to over-communicate, reach out more frequently, make more of an effort to make sure that at the end of the day, those connection needs are met. And it just takes such different forms today. You know, I just, I think about some of the virtual team building that was established during the course of the pandemic and the virtual cocktail parties.

You know, it's a different kind of animal. The idea of intentionality again, if it's our intention to connect with others, then we're going to figure out a way to make that happen. You know, and it may not be the way we want physically there by the water cooler in the break room having a cup of coffee together, but we're going to make it happen. And the other thing, too, that's kind of working in our favor a little bit as a result of these last couple of years is the sense of, I don't know, intimacy that might not be quite the right word, but being invited into someone's home, seeing the kids and the dog and the artwork in the background and

you know, the squirrels climbing up the screens and whatever other craziness might be going. on. It's actually given us a little, a broader window to that person, which gives us a rich opportunity to connect in ways that we would never have had visibility to before the pandemic. So again, it's that intentionality. That's right. When we conduct these interviews, which we do on Skype, in the background, I've got a turtle tank. And a lot of people have commented, they're like, you have a turtle? There's a turtle swimming like six feet behind you when you conduct your podcast interviews? Yeah, it's wonderful to see that, you know, the whole person. And that's the other thing. You know, these last couple of years have allowed us to be our whole

integrated selves. There's no way. I mean, you can't, you know, leave yourself at the door when you're not even leaving the door. You know, we are who we are. And that's a beautiful thing when it comes to having a basis for connecting really authentically with people. Right. Yeah, and it's true. I've found, for example, you bring up a turtle and I'll be surprised at how many people can just nerd out about reptiles, you know? Never would have known that about a person.

Yeah. Well, and I don't know if you can see I've got a troll behind me over my shoulder. Oh, yes. Yes. I do see that. I've had that troll since junior high school. And I took it into every single test that I took in. junior high and high school, because that was my lucky charm. And I've hung on to that. Well, I can't tell

you how many conversations we've had about trolls and how much troll information and how many additional trolls I now have in my collection. So basically, in terms of forming that connection, even in the age of remote work, when you're on Zoom with someone or on Skype with someone, taking the time, I guess it goes back to what you were saying about intentionality, taking the time to notice what's in the background and connect with them as though you're a guest in their home, because in a sense, in a video sense you are. Yeah. And when you think about it, it doesn't take any more time to do that.

You're going to talk about the weather or the weekend or whatever. So to just twist it, turn it by a couple of degrees to connect with that person. What's obviously important to them around them creates a deeper relationship, the opportunity to collaborate differently, to do work differently with them. it's really powerful. And so if a person's looking for more engagement in their work, finding ways to connect with the people that you work with, in addition to finding ways to develop new skills, develop that mastery, competence, and ways to make a bigger contribution so that you don't feel

like a cog in the machine, those are three powerful ways to grow in what you're doing and therefore feel more engaged with your work. Absolutely. and to cultivate the kinds of experiences that round out your portfolio that make you satisfied today and lay a foundation for who knows what might be coming down the pike tomorrow. We'll come back to this episode after this word from our sponsors. The holidays are right around the corner and if you're hosting, you're going to need to get prepared. Maybe you need bedding, sheets, linens.

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Right. So confidence certainly contributes feeling good about the work that you do, but it's also a huge development dimension as well, a way that we can grow really powerfully. So confidence is really about, you know, enhancing your trust and your ability to show up predictably to deliver consistent outcomes. And there are times in almost everyone's career where that confidence dips and it can, you know, hurt our job satisfaction and engagement. And it can hurt your career prospects as well. And so there are times when the most important way to focus your attention and your growth is through confidence. I think the statistic is 70% of us will experience the imposter syndrome at some point in

our careers and some of us more than others. And so recognizing that to begin with. And in our society, there's a little bit of, I don't know, shame associated with confidence. You're expected to be able to show up and do whatever you're tasked with. And I think a lot of us feel like we spend a lot of us. a lot of time, you know, faking it until we make it or something like that. So being able to confront the embarrassment or the shame or whatever, so I'm, I'm not feeling 100% here. And what do I need to do in terms of either really honing my craft or testing where the limits are, where I could

go off the rails, helps to create that level of confidence that supports the performance and the their growth. What should a person do if they have a manager, a supervisor, a colleague who is consistently undermining their confidence? Maybe this person is talking down to them or delivering negative feedback publicly or in some way exhibiting some type of communication behavior that just undermines your confidence in the workplace. How should a person handle that? Oh, so much of it depends upon the nature. It's so context driven, isn't it? I guess like the global advice would be to address it. How do you address it? You address it. Have a conversation with that person. I always try to assume positive intent, assume that the person isn't trying to do any harm to me and offer them some information. that may help them to interact better with others. So, you know, say in Paula, I don't know if you're aware of it, but when you spoke to me

like that in front of the client, it kind of created some raised eyebrows. And I have to say, I felt embarrassed and less than when that was going on. And so that kind of feedback can be really helpful. And then making an overt request, something to the effect of I would really appreciate it if in the future when you see something like that, you would hold off until after the meeting was finished, the client was gone and then shared your perspective. What if it's the client who's talking to you like that? That's a great question. When I was first in business for myself, my answer would have been,

you suck it up and deal with it because they're paying the bills. And as I've grown in my business, what I've learned is that that kind of behavior is just, it doesn't help anybody. It's not in anybody's best interest to tolerate it. So if it's as a client and you are in a position to be able to offer that kind of feedback to the client, there's great power in that. You know, for the client to hear, I can work a lot better with you when I, whatever, fill in the gaps. Not when you do blah, blah, blah, blah.

But when I am able to hear your feedback in private, when I have the time to be able to respond to something that might be emotional, it all depends upon whatever the situation is, obviously. So being able to give that kind of feedback to the client and make the same kind of request so that I can help you best, I would ask that you fill in the blanks. And when that doesn't work, you know, and there aren't very many people who are in a position to be able to do that. but I have like client. I was going to say fired clients, but it sounds way more negative than I hope it came off. But I have had to have those conversations where I said, I don't feel like I can do my best work for you based upon the way we're interacting. And so I think there's somebody out there who's going to do better.

Yeah. Yeah. Fire your clients if you're able to, if you have the leeway to do so. And I always feel better about it. It may just be my style when I take responsibility for it. So it's not like you're bad, you're terrible, you're impossible to work with, although sometimes that's going on in the back of one's mind. But I can't work in this kind of situation.

I can't serve you as well as I should. What are some other dimensions that are involved in re-engaging with your work and experiencing a sense of growth with your work? Right. So we've talked about contribution and competence. We've talked about connection and confidence. And the other dimensions of the multi-dimensional career framework are challenge, contentment, and choice. Now, challenge, I mean, that's pretty on the nose.

It's about really stretching beyond what's known, stepping into the discomfort zone, stretching your capacities, experimenting, failing, picking yourself up and figuring out how to do it differently. So a lot of us have considerable experience learning through challenge. And that seems like it also kind of goes hand in hand with developing greater levels of mastery or competence. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Although one could develop greater levels of mastery with the other dimensions as well. But yeah, it is.

It's really central to that. Then contentment, and this one, a lot of managers especially kind of raise their eyebrows when I talk about this, because contentment can, I think they conflate it maybe with complacency. And that's not the case at all. I think we have to recognize we're going to be in the workplace for decades. It can't be a hard charging climb up the corporate ladder for 30, 40, 50 years. There's an ebb and a flow in all of our careers. And so there are certain times when the best step forward is a step back, figuring out how can I cultivate greater ease and joy and meaning and balance so that I can sustain this thing, you know, called my career over the long.

long haul. And then there's choice and choices particularly timely as organizations are inviting folks back to the workplace. It's becoming crystal clear that people really want greater control, the autonomy from the model. You've been talking about flexibility over the when and the where and the how of their work. And when we have that greater level of volition and autonomy, when we have more control over decisions related to our work, there's tremendous opportunity for growth and, of course, the satisfaction that goes along with that. And then there's one last dimension of this model. The eighth dimension is climb, that climb up the corporate ladder, because it is another

way we grow and learn. The challenge is that for too long, we've really conflated the idea of promotions with developments. So frequently we just think of, you know, if I'm not moving up or around, I'm not growing. And the challenge with that, of course, is that as individuals, we have pitifully little control over when as an if a promotion is ever going to be available. And it's easy to lean into that and then feel disempowered. And so these other dimensions are all within our control. We and our managers can work together to invite any of those other dimensions into the envelope of our current role to allow for the growth and the satisfaction and the engagement that we want anytime,

anywhere. You know, the conflation of, I need a promotion, I need to climb the corporate ladder in order to be able to take on different responsibilities or embrace different challenges. oftentimes that conflation comes from having overly rigid job descriptions that are just baked into a box. At this level, you do X and at this level you do Y. This title associates with these duties, period, end of story. It makes sense to me how this could be very flexible and dynamic because, of course, I run a small business. But what should a person do if they work for a very, very large company, or they have a government job, or they have some type of organizational structure where there is that rigidity within job description task?

You know, increasingly the organizations I'm working with, even the ones that were traditionally rigid, are working diligently to try to blur those lines in large part because of the current employment marketplace. I mean, they're needing to get creative and be more flexible to meet the needs of the talent that's willing to make the change. And so while there are some organizations and probably plenty of organizations where it is very rigid and the lines are very clearly defined, many organizations offer greater flexibility than one might imagine. And so I guess what do we do is maybe push back. start by asking some questions and testing assumptions. It's easy to assume that if it's always been like that, it's continuing to be like that. And this is a unique time in the workplace when it's an employee's market, when you can take the risk and push back and ask for what you want.

I train managers day in and day out. And so much of the message is what's it going to take to be able to capture the talent that you need? And a lot of that is getting creative, listening to what people want to do and figuring out ways, you know, to job craft, to share resources, to swap roles and responsibilities, to allow for rotations. There's a lot of creativity in the workplace. So I think the key is asking for what you want and pressing for that. Don't take no for an answer, essentially. Yeah. Well, don't assume no is the answer either.

have the conversation. Well, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they would like to learn more about you or your work? I am at Julie Winklejulioni.com. We've got everything you need to know there, including a digital self-assessment that would help people to isolate which of these dimensions is most interesting right now. It's most alive for them and some specific strategies for being able to develop in those arenas. We'll come back to the show in just a second, but first... Thank you, Julie. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation?

Number one, if you're bored at work, if you feel like you're not growing, there are many ways that you can try to reengage with the work that you do. We know from research that was done by Daniel Pink in the book Drive, we know that three attributes that correlate with job satisfaction are mastery, autonomy, and purpose. Julie talks about these three when she talks about competence, choice, and contribution. So competence, choice, and contribution, that's a much more alliterative way of talking about mastery, autonomy, and purpose. And we know that those attributes strongly, and there's research to back this, those attributes strongly correlate with job satisfaction. If you feel like you're good at what you do, if you feel like you're good at what you do, if you feel like you have the freedom to do it how and when and where you want, and if you believe in the ultimate mission of what you're doing, and you can see how your efforts directly contribute to that mission,

if those factors are in place, you're much more likely to enjoy your job. So to the extent that you can get creative, get assertive, figure out how to bring more mastery, autonomy, and purpose to your work, competence, choice, and contribution. If you can put those elements in place, you're much more likely to enjoy what you do. It's about contracting with, you know, having really overt conversations with one's own manager supervisor about, you know, when I step up and do this, I look forward to learning these skills. I want to develop this competency and walk away really good at this. I want to have expanded my network to include these stakeholders or these executives or whomever

so that contribution becomes a two-way street as I'm giving, I'm getting something back in terms of my growth and my development. On top of that, or in addition to that, some other dimensions of your work to think about include the confidence that you have when you go into the office every day. That's something that correlates to but is conceptually different from your level of competence, your mastery. There's the question of whether or not you're challenged at work. Are you stretching beyond just the tasks that are known and comfortable? And that's the type of thing that can help build competence and confidence. And then there's the human connection.

Do you like the people that you work with? Can you connect with them at something that's more than just a transactional level, at something that's actually a friendship level? No matter what you're doing right now for work. No matter how long you plan on being there, even if your goal is early retirement, you're going to be at your job for probably at least another few years, if not longer, so you might as well enjoy it. And these are the dimensions that closely calibrate with job satisfaction. So to the extent that you have the power to take on new challenges, to develop new skills, to form stronger friendships, to strengthen each of these dimensions, to the extent that you can do that, you're more likely to enjoy your work. So that is key takeaway number one. Key takeaway number two, I want to talk

about the concept of imposter syndrome. Now, this is something that she mentioned during our discussion around confidence. She actually threw out a statistic that 70% of us will experience imposter syndrome at some point or report experiencing imposter syndrome. Now, to people who have never heard this phrase before, imposter syndrome is this deeply internalized feeling that you're not good at what you do. It's doubting your abilities, feeling like a fraud, feeling like an imposter. And this is something that disproportionately affects high achieving people who have a very hard time accepting praise, feeling proud of their accomplishments, feeling as though they deserve the awards or the accolades that they've been given. And part of that comes from the reality that

when you do something, when you master something, that thing feels easy. Let's use a really basic example that most of us can relate to. Once you know how to ride a bike, or once you know how to drive a car, riding a bike or driving a car feels easy. You can do it without even thinking about it, but to someone who's never done it before, who is struggling with training wheels or who can't figure out how a stick shift works, to someone who doesn't have that skill set, it feels impossible. It feels like a huge hurdle. And that example illustrates, in part, why people who have achieved difficult things downplay in their own minds the difficulty of what they've achieved and don't understand why other people are so impressed by the fact that they've done it.

And then they look around at their peer group. And if their peer group has done impressive things in adjacent verticals, those things look difficult. And so they think, wow, I'm actually not that accomplished. I don't know why everybody's praising me. Look at all of these other people. Look at what these other people have accomplished. These people are far more impressive than me.

Why are you lumping us together? So I'll give an example from my own life. Recently, I was accepted into a very selective one-year fellowship program at Columbia University. It's a fellowship in business journalism, and Columbia accepts 10 people into this program per year. I've applied three times on my third application I got in. this fellowship is specifically around business journalism. I am no longer a journalist. I haven't been a journalist in over a decade.

What I do as a podcaster is journalism adjacent, but it's not journalism per se. It's not reporting per se in the traditional sense of the word. And so most of the people who are accepted to this fellowship are actual journalists with credentials from the Wall Street Journal or the Financial Times or the economy. or the economist, there are some impressive journalists, business and finance journalists, who have gone through this particular fellowship.

And so when they published the list of the 10 fellows that they've accepted for this upcoming academic year, I looked at that list and I looked at the other nine people and I thought, wow, these other nine people are so much more accomplished than me. I strongly, strongly felt like the odd one out. Like, which of these does not belong? Oh, it's me. And I also noticed on the press release when Columbia published this list of fellows, I was the last person on the list.

And so I looked at that. And I'm genuinely thought, I was like, look at this. I'm the least impressive person here. That's why they put me last. They buried me at the bottom of the story. And I genuinely believed that for about two days until one of my friends pointed out, she was like, Paula, it's alphabetical. And I was like, no, it's not. And she was like, yeah, it is.

And I'm like, no, no, it's not. Like, I was adamant that it was not. And then I was adamant that it was not, even though I hadn't actually double-checked the claim. And then I pulled up the press release and I looked at it online. And I was like, no, it's definitely not alphabetical. See? And I started going through all of the last names. And I'm like, yes it is. Yes, it is. Okay. Got it. I'm not used to the letter P being at the end of the alphabet, but hey, that's where we are. That's our group of 10 this year. So I tell that story to illustrate just how strong my sense of imposter syndrome was. Here I was with the acceptance letter still feeling like, wow, I don't deserve this. Wow, I don't belong in this group. Wow. When are they going to realize?

that they made a mistake that I'm the odd one out. That is imposter syndrome to a T. And it's something that, as Julie said, seven out of ten of us report experiencing this. You're expected to be able to show up and do whatever you're tasked with. And I think a lot of us feel like we spend a lot of time, you know, faking it until we make it or something like that. So being able to confront the embarrassment or the shame or whatever. So I said to say, when I'm not feeling 100% here. And what do I need to do in terms of either really honing my craft or testing where the limits are, where I could go off the rails, helps to create that level of confidence that supports the performance and the growth? This persistent internalized doubt in our skills, our talents, our accomplishments.

In fact, if you go to the Wikipedia page for Imposter Syndrome, there is a lot. long list of notable influential people, celebrities who have publicly talked about feeling imposter syndrome. So I highlight this for two reasons. Number one, because it's so pervasive, 70% of people report feeling it. Number two, because the effect of it is that you hold yourself back. You hold yourself back from challenges, from making contributions, from developing higher levels of competency, from all of these dimensions that we've talked about, even from connecting with others,

you hold yourself back if you feel unworthy, which is what imposter syndrome is. So in all the dimensions that we talk about, there are, of course, external barriers to these dimensions that we've discussed. What if your supervisor isn't on board? What if your manager isn't on board? But imposter syndrome is the internal barrier.

what if you yourself, deep down inside, aren't on board? So the need to overcome imposter syndrome and therefore develop confidence so that you can embrace challenges, develop mastery, advocate for more autonomy, feel like more than just a cog in the machine, the need to develop that confidence, i.e., overcome imposter syndrome, is foundational to all of this work. And so that is the second key takeaway. Finally, key takeaway number three, know when it's time to walk away. Sometimes, I know this entire conversation has been about how to re-engage with the work that you're doing.

But sometimes the job just isn't right. You heard the example during our interview of me going to the newspaper that I worked at saying, hey, I think this newspaper should start a podcast. I'd be happy to take charge of that. and hearing a response from my manager that essentially said, we're not going to support you at all. We're not even going to pay for a microphone, $100 microphone, which to me was symbolic of how little they would support that.

It wasn't about the hundred bucks that a microphone costs. It was about whether or not I should put in the hours of additional unpaid labor for this project that they weren't going to invest in, even in the smallest way, right? And if you're at a job like that where the buy-in from your superiors just isn't there, the opportunity for challenge, for mastery, for making a contribution, if those opportunities, if you advocate for them and you try to re-engage with your work, but you just keep hitting a brick wall, sometimes it is time to walk away. But as Julie pointed out, if there was ever a time that you walk away and change

jobs. It's now. It's now when the labor market's tight and the great resignation, the great reshuffling has happened. So try to re-engage, but don't hang in there if the situation truly is unsalvageable. In the process, carve out the job that you want. Employers are more than ever trying to figure out how to create the conditions that will capture the hearts and the minds and the imaginations of the talent that's out there. So it really is the perfect time to, as one's interviewing for a new rule, to lay out what your life's purpose is, to test how does it align with what this organization is doing? And once the glow has come off the job, how am I really going to feel about doing that? And where can I express my sense of purpose and contribution over the long haul?

Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Julie Giuliani. Thank you so much for tuning in. This is the Afford Anything podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. Number one, share this with a friend or a family member or a colleague if you really want to stir the pot or a neighbor. Share it with someone you know who you think could benefit from listening to the ideas that came out of this episode. share this with the people in your life. That's the number one thing that you can do to spread these ideas, to spread this message. Number two, open whatever app you're using to listen to this show,

and please hit the follow button so that you don't miss any of our amazing upcoming episodes. And while you're there, please leave us a review. If you want to chat about today's episode with other members of our community, head to afford anything.com slash community. And you can find me on Instagram at Paula P-A-U-L-A-P-A-N-T. Thank you so much for tuning in. My name's Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast, and I will catch you in the next episode.