Afford Anything - Farnoosh Torabi, Host of CNBC's Follow the Leader, Spills the Secrets of Successful CEOs

Episode Date: May 2, 2016

#23: Farnoosh Torabi is host of CNBC's Follow the Leader. She shares stories about spending 48 hours with the most influential business leaders in the nation. For a list of notes and resources, visit https://affordanything.com/episode-23-farnoosh-torabi-host-cnbc-follow-leader/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, I guess here's the point where I have to step up and be a grown-up. Three, two, one. Welcome to The Money Show, a podcast about mastering your money and time so you can live your optimal life. This show features interviews with entrepreneurs, financial experts, and regular people who share amazing insight into investing, business, money management, and productivity. There are many roads to financial freedom. This show explores them all. grab a beer, kickback, and enjoy the money show. We have an amazing guest on today's show. Her name is Farnoosh Tarabi, and she's the host of a television show on CNBC called Follow the Leader.

On this show, she follows around really high-profile entrepreneurs to figure out how they live their lives. She trails them for 48 hours like a fly on the wall, observes what they do, goes to meetings with them, has dinner with them, flies in their private planes. All of that is coming up on today's show. Now, I just wanted to let you know that unfortunately, because of the timing, J Money just couldn't make it to today's episode. And the reason is we wanted to make sure that we got this episode out to you while Follow the Leader on CNBC is still going on. So there are two more episodes left, Wednesday, May 4 and Wednesday, May 11th, both

at 1030, Eastern and Pacific. Check out those episodes. We wanted to just get this out to you before those two air. So without further delay, here's Farnush Tarabi. Hey, Farnush. Hey, Paula. I'm super excited to have you on the show. You have done so much and there's so much that we're going to cover.

Let's just jump right into it if that's okay with you. All right. I love that. Let's do it. Awesome. Farnush, in this episode, there are three topics that I want to cover. Number one, you're the host of CNBC's Follow the Leader. And for that show, you've shadowed incredibly high-profile CEOs and visionaries.

So I'd like to talk about what you've learned by doing that. That's the first thing I want to cover. After that, I want to talk about the So Money podcast. You're a master of networking and building relationships, and you've interviewed some really incredible people. For your launch, you interviewed Robert Kiyosaki, Tony Robbins, Gene Chatsky, and Dave Ramsey even tweeted you, congratulations, for your launch. So I want to ask you, I mean, I'm just personally curious how you've built all of those incredible relationships and what you've learned from this vast network of very successful people.

And the third thing that I'd like to talk about is you make more money than your husband. In addition to that, you've deeply studied the familial and social implications of breadwinning women for your best-selling book when she makes more. So at the end of this interview, I want to touch on that. And given the fact that thousands of our listeners are breadwinning men, I want to make sure that they're included in this conversation as well. So we'll get to that at the end. There is so much, Paula. I can't wait to hear what I have to say. You are so busy.

You do a lot. I always make time for you, though. Always time for you. Oh, thank you. I really appreciate it. Tell me about follow the leader. Tell me about the CEOs that you followed while filming the show. Paula, this has been the most incredible opportunity of my first.

my career. It was an unbelievable time following what ultimately became about six, seven CEOs and were in the midst of the season. So the show airs on CNBC, as you mentioned, Wednesdays at 1030, Eastern and Pacific. And the conceit of the show is, you know, what makes entrepreneurs special, different, superhuman? And we go to the top of the list of, you know, super successful entrepreneurs. We're looking at people, we're following people like John Paul DeGioia, who is the co-founder of John Paul Mitchell Systems and also co-founded Patron Tequila. Did you know that? Those two very different brands. And he started those. He's a billionaire. We followed Leor Cohen, who was one of the founding fathers of hip-hop as we know it. You know, he started Def Jam

Records in the 80s, then became president of Sony, now starting from scratch again, starting his own independent record label and using digital data to find the next, you know, amazing artist. Then we followed, you know, everyone from Warby Parker founders to the founder of Birch Birchbox. And coming up, we've got Tracy Anderson, who is the fitness guru to the stars, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, Madonna. And, oh, can't forget Gary Vaynerchuk, too. I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with Gary Vaynerchuk. He is a digital czar. You know, he's social Media Master has his own digital agency called VaynerMedia. So it was an amazing experience. I got to spend 48 plus hours with these incredible people. I mean, this sort of access doesn't happen in

every day life. As a journalist, I've been covering business and finance for, I think probably by now, it's been like 13, 14 years. And the most I would ever get was, you know, half an hour, or come to the office for an hour. This is access where we're not just going to their office. We're going sometimes to their homes. We're walking with them from place to place. I flew on John Paul DeGrius, private jet from L.A. to Austin. So it for me was like a dream come true as a journalist. And I think for viewers, what they're really getting, which is amazing is behind the scenes, never before really seen behind the scenes of what it takes to be an entrepreneur. There's such a hunger right now in the marketplace and an appetite for learning everything there is to learn about entrepreneurship,

How do you start a business? What differentiates a good idea from a bad idea? How do you get funding? How do you take it from good to great to excellent? How do you become a billion-dollar-valued company like a Biry Parker company? So all of that is wrapped up in this phenomenal show. And it's fun. It's entertaining.

There's drama. And for all those reasons, I'm really proud of it. And I think if you haven't caught it yet, you still have some time. You can also go to follow the leader. cnbcprime.com and catch a bunch of episodes there and also some extras, some never-before-seen edits. Nice, nice. You mentioned you were drinking Patron on that private plane. Yeah.

With the guy who founded Patron. With the guy who founded Patron. That was unfortunately not in the scene. I think they don't want to show the host of the show drinking. But when in Rome, right? I mean, we didn't like get sloppy, but he definitely introduced me to some Patron. And I'm not a hard alcohol drinker, but I have to. say that patron was smooth as it should have been. And John Paul de Joria, I think, was one of the most

fascinating people I've ever met in my life because I think we go in. I went in certainly with a certain level of expectation. You know, well, when you think billionaire, what's the first thing that comes to mind? You know, inaccessible, maybe a little eccentric. Maybe there's an ego there. None of that was there for John Paul DeJura. He is the most down to earth, nice guy, happy go lucky. And it's evidenced by all the people around him, too. Nice people seem like they're very trustworthy, loyal, friendly. No one is blowing smoke and mirrors his way. Everyone gives him the truth. He's a big family guy, loves to spend time with his daughters and his wife of 30 plus years. And so I just really appreciated that because it just to me was a reminder that even when you, like people say, the love of money is not the root of all evil. But when you make, more money, you become more of who you are, which I think can be a really great and beautiful thing. If you're a good person, if you're a generous person and then you become really, really wealthy, hopefully you become more of that person that you are deep down.

Right. And John Paul DeGioria's story is particularly fascinating to me because he was homeless as a child. He was actually, so he was homeless as an adult, believe it or not. He grew up relatively poor, single mom, raised him and his brother. She was an immigrant from Greece. They grew up in a, you know, what was then probably considered, you know, lower middle class. Now if you go back to his neighborhood, it is a very scary part of Los Angeles where there's like, we actually visited. And the neighbors were saying there was a drive by not too long ago, drive by shooting.

There's a lot of drugs in the neighborhood now. It's just, it's gotten worse, actually, believe it or not. what happened was he grew up and was always super thankful of his mother and her advice and the way that she raised them. She's like, we were, we couldn't rub two dimes together some Christmases, but we always felt that we had what we needed and we always would give back. That was a big part of our belief growing up that if we had something, we should be able to give back. And so I think that's where he gets his charitable identity. But, you know, I think as an adult, he still fell on hard times and He admits he had to sleep in his car some nights and he was a single dad.

And I think, though, in some ways, that's what gave him the drive to succeed. You know, he wanted a better life. And he also now as a very wealthy man knows what it's like to have nothing. So he has a, it's humbled him. I think he has a lot of perspective. And it's why he continues to be successful. In this age, he's 71 years old and he's still at it. You know what?

This show, the episode followed him, you know, working on another business venture, which he sees as another billion dollar brand. Wow. Wow. Tell me about Tracy Anderson. There are a lot of fitness experts out there. How did she become the fitness expert to the stars or the trainer to the stars? Right.

So Tracy's from Indiana, small town, really just made a name for herself locally first. was just known within her small town of being like a really great fitness trainer and choreographer. She married a New York Nick basketball player and I think moved to New York for that and continue to choreograph and all that. And I think just through word of mouth, you know, like I think that just is a testament to everyone listening, you know, like no one here knows Madonna. Tracy didn't know Madonna. She wasn't even six degrees from Madonna, but she kept doing the good work.

And word of mouth is still very powerful. It traveled. And one day she got the call for Madonna. I heard you do amazing things. She transformed her own body to Tracy. So she's a living, breathing example of her own method, you know, how it can work. And that's how that transpired. And from there, of course, I mean, you know, there's no going.

going back. You know, once you're with Madonna, then Gwyneth Paltrow calls you and Jennifer Lopez is on her, you know, on her top five, probably cell phone list of people she's training. So yeah, and so what's interesting too about Tracy that I think is applicable to a lot of everyday people is that, you know, a lot of us right now are, we're like trying to figure out our brand, we're solopreneurs, we are starting a small business with just one or two employees. And that's the start. We want to build that. We want to brand that. We want to scale it. How do you do that when you're, especially when you are selling something that is so personal to you that, you know, Tracy is a trainer and a choreographer,

how do you actually scale that? Do you just open up a bunch of gyms? Do you open up a bunch of, like, classes? And she is doing that. But she's one person and people want her. They don't want necessarily to be taught by, even if this person was trained under her. They, you know, they want her. So that's the challenge. You know, how do I, how do I be in all places at all times and give people what they want? And that's what she was, that's what we're going to learn in the episode when we follow Tracy. Right. Can you tell us a little bit? Because actually, as you were saying that, I realized that a lot of the people you follow, Tracy Anderson, John Paul DeGioria, whose name is reflected on Paul Mitchell, Gary Vaynerchuk,

whose name is reflected on VaynerMedia, all of them, all of the ones that I've just named have built brands that are very tied in with their own personal identity. So how have they managed to scale while still, you know, scale and outsource and grow, given the fact that so many people want access to them? Because you're right, that is a lesson for entrepreneurs, people like me or a lot of the listeners who are trying to do the same thing, trying to scale and trying to figure out what do I myself do, what do I outsource, and how do I manage expectations among my clients. Yes.

So I think first you do it very carefully. You don't rush into any decisions. There's a lot of temptation, I think, when you are Tracy Anderson, for example, to slap your name on a lot of things. She gets offers a lot to license her name out. And she doesn't want to because for her, it's very important. And she's established this from the get-go that she wants to have ownership of everything that she puts out there in the marketplace. She wants to be able to develop it, control it, change it if she wants to, as opposed to someone coming to her and be like, hey, we have this great protein shake. Can we call it the Tracy Anderson protein shake?

And nothing against protein shakes, but she'd rather make it in her own kitchen and distribute it. So it's a slow burn. You know, they have to be very, very careful and constantly revisiting what their principles are and what their values are, their value systems. So I think it's really important when you're out there figuring out how you're going to scale and build your brand. And if a lot of it does rest on your brand equity, your personal brand equity, you got to think about how do you want to differentiate yourself in the marketplace? What are your deal breakers? And be okay with saying no because that's a big part of making the right decisions, is learning

when to say no to things that may seem tempting. At the beginning, maybe there's a little bit of money involved, but you have to think about the long-term implications of that. So with John Paul de Joria, for example, he's really put himself out there. So now people really, he's a recognizable person. Physically, people go, oh, I know that guy, you know. And then they figure out, oh, yes, Paul Mitchell and a lot of them don't know about Patron. But he's still very much, he's very protective of his brand.

And one of the things that came up a lot in that episode was the fear of dilution. If you're just in too many places, your names on a lot of things, your faces everywhere, that could come back to bite you, you know, and it could backfire. So you have to be very careful. Less is more. And so I think that's really the takeaway for everybody is that I think, you know, you get excited. And now in the digital world, everything moves so fast and you may feel that you're behind and you want to get out there and quicker than later, sooner than later. But really, you have to think of this as a long-term journey. You know, your brand has a a long way to go and don't fall prey to these quote unquote opportunities that might come your way that have a lot of instant gratification but may not really make sense based on what your values

are, what your goals are. So just be mindful of that and know that as long as you stay true to who you really are and what you want to accomplish, that you have to believe that that is going to pay off in the long run. So kind of be mindful of the long term. Don't pick the low hanging fruit. own and control through the things that have your name on it and your reputation on it. Definitely. And don't worry so much about what your competition is doing because that could be a full-time occupation. And really, I think we all experience that to some extent. We start to worry about, are we good enough? Are we doing what the others are doing? And I think that's a very dangerous and slippery slope. And I'll tell you that, of course, you want to be mindful of

market, but these entrepreneurs on follow the leader, they're very devoted to what they want to do and doing it exceptionally well. Can you tell me a little bit about, in general, among all the people that you followed, how do they organize their day and how do they make, they have to make so many decisions? How do they approach decision making? Well, I'll give you an example. So Warby Parker, which is the episode airing this Wednesday at 1030, Nick Blumen and Dave Gilboa are the co-CEOs. And what I immediately learned about their day and how it's

organized is that while they do have a lot of meetings, and I think I probably went to six or eight meetings with them in the first day at their headquarters in New York, every meeting is a decision meeting. It's not a meeting to talk about the what-ifs or plans. I mean, their team has had all of those meetings. But when they're involved as the CEOs, they don't want to be in a where they're still considering things or not sure. They want to be presented with facts. They might ask a few questions. And then they make a decision.

And that's really important to them. You know, it's like really be able to make decisions in the moment. And, of course, that can't happen without their team preparing. But for their own conservation of their time and the best use of their time, they only come to the meeting at that point when there's a decision to be made. And they have all the facts, all the data, all the feet. feedback and they can make a mindful decision then. That makes a lot of sense to outsource the information gathering. And that kind of relies on hiring competent, trustworthy people. Hey, could you please

explore five options and present me with a list of the pros and cons? Absolutely. Tracy Anderson, for example, while she is the visionary, she's the brand, she is Tracy. She is also aware of what her strengths and weaknesses and one of her, while her strength is knowing fitness and health and her method, she's not a CEO. She didn't go to business school. She doesn't know Wall Street. She hired, instead, appointed a CEO for her company, Maria Baum, who does have all that experience, went to Wharton, has managed businesses, runs companies, has relationships, worked in the New York Stock Exchange. So has an MBA. And that is the person that she's entrusted, that she invests in to help guide her as she tries to really build a business, not just a brand. Right. Interesting.

Are there any things that you noticed about the people that you followed that distinguish them from other entrepreneurs that you've talked to? Well, I have to think about that. You know, I want to say yes, and there are all these like superhuman powers that they had. And surely they were all very special and unique. Were they aliens? No. Well, I think the best feedback always happened at the end of the day when I come home and I would have a glass of wine. I'd be telling my husband about like, you won't even believe what I did today. But one of the things that kept coming up was you wouldn't believe how normal these people are. And that was so inspiring to me because I like, I came home after Warby Parker's 48 hour excursion. And I was like, okay, yes, they're brilliant.

Yes, they acted on an idea and an impulse and, you know, made it happen quickly and grew so fast and went to Wharton, and so they had the resources. But these guys, Nick and Dave, I, like, wanted to sit back and have a beer with them. They were normal, you know, and I don't know why, again, I may be going back to what I initially said, you know, you expect these people are going to be kind of eccentric and egotistical. Some people would even think, you know, evil, you know, these evil rich people controlling business. No, they're actually very similar to you and I. And I think why they're successful is because, well, I wouldn't say that we're not, but that they've reached such heights is because they really live and breathe entrepreneurship.

And what I mean by that is that every fiber in their being is about building this business and this idea. They're so passionate about it. That said, it doesn't blind them. You know, they surround themselves with excellent people. They take the time to make the right decisions. Like, look at data. How many times have you made a decision based on impulse? And it felt really right, but it backfired, but no one responded.

You know, I think that that's typical. But you can't do that. You've got to rely on the data. And even if it takes you two more days to get out that message to your people, but you know that it's rooted in what people want to hear because you've tested it. And that, I think, is something that came up a lot is that, like, you know, they're just like you and me, but they're also very methodic about the steps that they take by listening to the data, reflecting on.

on history to be able to make more educated decisions going forward. They also are phenomenal salespeople. You know, they could sell dirt to a groundhog. They could sell ice to an Eskimo. They could sell sand to the Hawaiians. Like they got, they have it. They have that selling ability. And I think at the of the day, I was telling my husband, I'm like, if we teach our son nothing else that is like street smarts, if we teach it nothing else, it's how to sell, how to be able to market and sell, how to find something in the world, find its use, get excited about it and be so excited about it that you want to convince everybody else why they should have it. Because you will always be able to support yourself in that way.

And I think there's a special EQ that goes along with their success that needs to be there. Like they have an emotional intelligence. It's not just that they, you know, did well in school or that they were in the right place at the right time. They were very good at reading people. They're very good at engaging with people, understanding what people want. Gary Vaynerchuk was like the ultimate at this. And he'll be the first to tell you because he doesn't, he's not shy. But he really believes that one of his like talents is his emotional.

intelligence, being able to like anticipate what you need, maybe even before you know it. And as a result, monetizing that, leveraging that. Right. Wow, that is a lot of, I mean, those are all fantastic lessons that you've observed, you know, knowing how to sell, even if you're not a traditional salesperson, a lot of people kind of commonly associate, well, if I'm a salesperson, I should know how to sell, but if I'm in any other job, then it's not applicable to me. And what I'm hearing you say is that's a skill for everyone.

Right. And really, I mean, I think when we think of, yeah, you're right. Like when we think of selling, we think like, oh, you know, you're being a little. Yeah, I don't know what it is, but it's like a visceral reaction, right? Right. Oh, gosh. I don't even like to promote things that I do. But if you think of it more is what makes a successful salesperson successful is not just that they have a cool product.

Because some people can't sell cool products. Right. Some people can't give away things for free. They just can't. Why? Because maybe they haven't taken the time to really understand the market and why that individual would care to have that object or service. So really understanding the market has to come first.

Knowing who's on the other side of that negotiating table, the deal, you have to really understand that psychology, the habits, the needs, the ones. that is going to dictate your sales presentation. And then it won't feel like a sales pitch. It'll feel more like you're just connecting with people. Right. And that's where the emotional intelligence, the EQ comes in. Right.

Exactly. So yeah, I think all of those things I learned. And but really, too, that these are all learned, a lot of these are learned skills, you know. I mean, you can learn, although I would say EQ to an extent to something that you, some people have more of it. than others, just like maybe IQ. People have more of that than others. But you can learn a lot of these skills. And if not, you can, you can definitely try. And I think maybe entrepreneurs don't come. Maybe not everyone can be an entrepreneur, but I think entrepreneurs come from anywhere, can come from

anywhere. And so that's, you know, that's pretty inspiring. Absolutely. And certainly with EQ, I would think that just learning how to observe, learning how to truly watch and listen, could really boost your EQ by virtue of boosting awareness. Right. Yeah, get out in the world, travel. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're so right about that.

And now with the dollar being so strong, get out there, go, go, go. I want to make a trip overseas soon because I'm like, I need to take advantage of this parody between the euro and the dollar. It's near parody. Definitely, definitely. I was just in France a couple of weeks ago, so I was enjoying it for sure. Let's move on to your podcast, So Money. Tell me about you, again, kind of on the topic of interviewing very amazing, successful people. You know, you've talked to Tim Ferriss, you've talked to James Altiture, Gretchen Rubin.

You've interviewed some incredible people on So Money, dipping behind the scenes. for a second. How have you made those connections? I mean, when you were talking about Tracy Anderson, you know, you talked about word of mouth and all of that. You've, you yourself have also done a very good job of that. Tell me a little bit about your business. Well, thank you. I, you know, I would say it goes back to the first day I started working in this field. I started working in financial journalism, business journalism. I think I was, well, I had an internship in this space when I was in college. So you could say technically that I've been doing this since I was like 19, 20 years old, so a long time. And, you know, the world is small after you're at this space

doing the work that I'm doing for a long time. You get to know people, building relationships. My work is all about relationships. You know, getting a story, you know this, getting an article published or a podcast. It's all about reaching out to people. And I like to think, that, you know, the podcast or an article or a video can be a way to help people get their message out. So I try to as much as possible approach these people with, with open arms. You know, I want to help you. I have this podcast. And of course, a lot of these people are busy and they pass or whatever. But, you know, it's all momentum, Paula. It's all, it's patience. It's momentum. It's not burning bridges. It's connecting dots sometimes and going, oh,

hey, so this person I interviewed last month, their publicist actually also represents this person. You know, so it's being able to kind of do some research as well and dig and dig and dig. But for me, I mean, I've been doing this for so long. The podcast arrived at a time in my career where I had about 12, 13, 14 years of reporting experience. And over time, you just start to develop relationships in a Rolodex. and I started to go back down memory lane and contact people, reach out to people. Fortunately, I have more friends than enemies. I don't like to think I have any enemies, but I think that I leave, you know, that's why

it's important to never burn bridges, you know. People, of course, have, like, screwed me along the way in my career, but I don't hold it against them. And I try to as much as possible end things peacefully. And you just never know when someone can come to help you out. And I think the key to that is always being someone who is thinking about how can I help others. So, you know, I learned this all the time on my show is that the key to receiving help is to be someone who is always in the habit of offering help. And that's all, as a journalist, that's kind of what I do.

You know, I'm out to tell the stories, get people's voices heard and really be, you know, an advocate in some ways for some causes and some issues. And through that, I think I've just struck a lot of long lasting relationships. And I will tell you, though, the story about Tim Ferriss is one of those stories that just has to be told because I was, I remember I was, I go on the Today Show once in a while and I was backstage. I think the podcast had just hit like 100,000 downloads. And I was telling a few people about it. And this woman overheard.

She came to me and said, hi, you know, introduce herself. And I told her, oh, she said, what time about your podcast? Wow, that's so cool. So I told her about it. And she goes, you know who you should have on their podcast? Tim Ferriss. And I laughed. And I said, yeah, that would be great.

Just like, you know, I would love to have Oprah and the Dalai Lama. I would love to have President Obama on the podcast. I'm like, yeah, thank you for being so ambitious for me. And that would be awesome. She goes, no, no, no, no, I know Tim. Let me text him right now. And I said, before I could even like, what do you say to? Okay, you know, I was kind of scared that she was going to.

I was like, this could, you know, is this the way that I should go about reaching out to Tim Ferriss? But I didn't know the relationship. She said, no, he's an investor in my company. And he kind of owes me. And I think you're great. And I think you should be doing more with like great, cool, successful women. And he got back to her via text. I saw it and it was like, sure, give me Farnoche's email.

I'll get in touch with her myself. Wow. Which at that point I was like, well, maybe he's just doing this to be like, you know, it's like, I'll call you, don't call me. Right. Yeah. So then I was like, oh, well, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Did not think he was going to email me. He emailed me that next day and said, hi, got your information. Would love to come on your podcast whenever. Just let me know. What? Wow. Yeah. So the point of the story is.

that you should be an advocate for yourself in public, you know, and not like you're parading it all over the city. But, you know, I think sometimes we mask our success. And I think particularly women, I think, and I struggle with this too sometimes. And I mean, someone just told me this over lunch today, Farno, you don't do a good enough job of promoting yourself. Well, I don't know. I just don't, maybe I don't have that gene. I don't have, I don't know what it is. I just, I do, I feel like I do enough of self-promotion, but sometimes I don't do enough. And the times when I do, and this was like a very organic conversation we were having. It wasn't like, I was like, excuse me, everybody, please stop what you're doing. I like to tell you about my podcast. Right. It was just like one of the

things that was normal conversation. It ended up being a wonderful gift that I gave myself because another woman recognized my success, wanted to help me out, and I'm forever grateful. Right. And you know, what's beautiful about that story is that you started by talking about approaching others with a spirit of how can I help you. That's exactly what this woman did for you. She found a way that she could help you. And now, as you just said, you're grateful to her. Forever grateful. Yeah. I mean, you have that relationship not just with Tim, but with her as well. Exactly. Better believe it. Yeah. If she wants me to quote her in an article about something and it makes sense, you know, I'd be happy to.

Perfect. Perfect. I love how that came full circle. Yeah. I mean, and I will say too that I hired a booker that, you know, I don't know any celebrities. And I asked around, discovered there was a very talented booker in New York City who works for a television show who was interested in working part-time for me. And occasionally he gets me some great, great guests like Tim Ferriss and Margaret Cho. And, you know, the longer you're at this and podcasting. And once you get a couple of great phenomenal guests that can kind of anchor the show as that type of show where those types of people come on, I think it's an easier pitch than to go to some of the other people that you want that you really are like on your dream

list. Right. That makes a lot of sense. And that goes to the momentum that you were talking about. Right. Right. It builds on itself. Yeah. So sorry, it's not like a clear, straightforward answer is just it's a combination of things, Paula, you know, I think the biggest thing is just patience, being generous with your help, and building momentum. All right. So since we're running low on time, I want to turn the conversation to the book when she makes more. And really beyond that, beyond the book, I kind of want to turn the conversation to the topic, the concept of what happens when a woman makes more. And there are a couple of stats from the book that I want to quote. In the book, you mentioned that women in their 20s have a higher median income

than men in their 20s in almost every major U.S. city. So we're seeing this trend where women in general are making more money, at least young women are. And you also mentioned that among married couples of all ages, 24%, almost one in four married couples across the generation spectrum include a wife who earns more. And that's a huge increase from the 6% that we had in 1960. And that creates some social situations for which there isn't a roadmap. And you tell a really good story in this book. I'd like you to tell it now, if you're comfortable doing so, about the first time that you disclosed to Tim, who was then your boyfriend, now your husband, the first time you disclosed your income to him over margaritas. Yeah, I suggest all serious couples

do this, not just disclose income. Believe it or not, a lot of couples don't know how much each person makes, which is perplexing. But I actually wrote a story about that because it is a problem. But I think that we were at a point in our relationship where I think we were moving in together. We had been together for a while long enough to kind of understand at least our financial habits and the sense of responsibility that we took with our money. And so far, we were both, I think, pleased. You know, Tim, neither one of us was like oddly cheap or spending like crazy living beyond our means, none of that. At least as far as we could tell from just, you know, being together. And you learn a lot about someone just by opening up your eyes to their financial lives.

And it's not like you have to go and like find their username password to their bank account. But you can just tell, you know, if they're attentive to their bills, if they pay, if they tip well, that's always a good sign. So we went to a bar, one of our favorite Mexican restaurants. We sat at the bar and we ordered margaritas and I brought, I brought post-its because I'm nerdy. And I brought like pens, colored pens. And I said, okay, we're going to write down income savings, what's in our 401ks, any debt, credit cards, mortgage, student loans, all that. And if you know it, your credit score. So we wrote that down and then we swapped.

You know, so simultaneously we were learning each other's financial, general financial picture. Wow. Okay. And it was at that time where he learned I was making a little bit more than him. It was only a little bit more at that point. Well, this was probably twice what he was making. Yes. It wasn't insignificant.

But, you know, so like everything else was parody. He had a home. I had a home. We had no student loans, no credit card debt, credit scores were good. It was just this one thing, which was that I made more than him. And honestly, to us at the time, it was relatively innocuous. Like, who cares? It doesn't matter.

I guess also I had been living in New York a lot longer, and he was going to be moving to New York. So he was going to have to, he was very much having sticker shock. You know, everything was so much more money here. And I was very much accustomed to it. So we had that to adjust to a little bit. Like, why can't we have the apartment that's $3,500 a month? I mean, you can afford it.

And he was, and he's paying like 800, you know, in Philadelphia. So that was a wake-up call. But I think that the long, the more, and so very important that we did that, I think it helped to really level the playing field, get us all on the same page, no secrets. Though as we, as I made more and more and more because my career was, I was an entrepreneur. He worked at a company. So they're, the most of a raise he might get in a given year is like 10 or 15% if he's lucky.

I, on the other hand, it was like, I could make nothing or I could make a lot more. And I continued, I was very grateful. I got more opportunities every year. And so my salary increased. And when we got married, when we were about to get married, I realized that as we were both now involved more in making joint financial decisions, whether it was related to the wedding or the house you were going to buy or the car we were going to buy, I felt that Tim was getting quieter and quieter and quieter. And I was getting louder and louder and louder about where I wanted the money to go, how much we were going to spend. And I think it was somewhat subconscious, but noticeable. And it wasn't like we were doing it on purpose.

It was just sort of like, you know, as money is, it's a very emotional thing. How we behave around money is rooted in how we were raised around money. And I was probably thinking that, well, as the breadwinner, quote unquote, I was entitled somehow to making all these, calling all these shots. And I worked also in the financial space. So I know what I'm doing. But that's not being in a partnership. And I think Tim and I asked him and he admitted, he said, you know, I feel like because

I make less that my opinion just doesn't matter or like, you know, I don't feel like it's my place to say, let's go to the Bahamas. When I know that a lot of it is going to be your, you'll be covering a lot of the bill. And you like nice things. And I can't always afford them. So I don't want to have an argument. So I'd rather just you take the lead on that. And so, you know, we were justifying it in our head and we were okay with it, but I knew that over the long run, this was not going to be a healthy arrangement.

That was kind of the first time I realized that our income disparity was creating an emotional divide and kind of a, while we were very financially transparent, we were kind of very separated in our, in this journey that we were in together. You know, it was still like we were roommates, not a couple. with goals, shared goals. And then the kicker, too, was that when my mom found out that I made more than Tim, she was disturbed by this because in her mind, you know, my mom worked when we were growing up. But my dad was the primary provider. And then sometimes my mom didn't work. And I think in her mind, no matter how much you make as a woman, she thinks you should

probably be with someone who can, quote, unquote, take care of you, provide for you, culturally too, I think men who make less in their wives, it just didn't happen. And so when she was like learning this for the first time, she perhaps suspected Tim of not being quote unquote ambitious or like successful, which is so irrational. But again, it's, I understand it. She's not alone in that thinking. It's still this country as progressive as we like to think we are. most of this country, 67% of Americans still believe it is a man's responsibility to be able to provide for his family before he gets married. Very few of us have this expectation of women. And so there was this cultural, societal confusion and criticism and disbelief of the financial arrangement that we had, you know, that how is it that you make more than him and that you're still that, you know, how does this work? And how does it make you feel? How does it make him feel? And that was pressure on us. As I said,

you know, initially we were kind of like, what's the big deal? But as we were learning, it is a big deal. And no one prepares women to be head of household. I wish that they would have said to me that in the same vein as they said to me, furnish, you should be successful, go to school, go to grad school, get the job, ask for the raise, get more, do more, be entrepreneurial. Why couldn't they have said, oh, and when you become the breadwinner, here's what you should do and here's what you should expect. They never said that because no one thought that that would happen. Ironically. Ironically.

Like, what did you think was going to happen? What did you think of I was going to marry like Daddy Warbucks? Like, because that's the pool of men who make more than women when you're a high earning woman. Not to say that it's a small pool, but let's be honest, those men, those type A men traditionally and those type A women traditionally are not going to click. You know, these power couples that we hear so often about, it's a myth. You know, I mean, it's sexy and it's fun.

But when you get married and you have kids and you have only so many hours in the day, and if you're both going crazy, work, work, work, work, making the money, when are you going to have time for each other? When are you going to be able to, you know, and someone, someone, there has to be balanced. Someone's career might have to slow down in order for the other person. to speed up and then at times it could be the reverse. So this was a very complex area that no one had tackled and it was frankly politically incorrect sometimes to be talking about these issues. We didn't want to think that there was a problem or a complexity. But as soon as I started to

investigate, I felt like I had opened a Pandora's box and I would bring this topic up at dinner parties and work events and wherever I could grab someone's ear and say, I'm working on this book, what do you know? Who do you know? Are you in this situation? And I would either get awkward silence, which says a lot. Right. Or I would get the person who was like, oh my God, are you seriously? I have so much to talk about. I have, it's either I'm going through this or my sister-in-law or whatever. I know someone. I need your book. You can interview me. You know, and so, you know, I just, I think the moral of the story is that if you want to write a book or tell a story, start with a situation in your own life that you haven't got all the answers to yourself.

And I thought it was weird. You know, I'm like, I've been covering this space for a long time. I should have answers to this or I should know where to get the answers. There wasn't a book. There had been other books written about the fact that women were making more and that there were breadwinners, breadwinning wives and the studies had been done. But nobody was looking at this from, okay, what now perspective? It was like, oh, this is happening.

Isn't it great? Right. And it is great. And I want it to continue to be great. And I wanted to continue to be something that we look at excitedly and we support and that we can tell younger girls, hey, when you become the breadwinner in your marriage, it's going to work. It's going to be awesome because we've prepared you and the men for that. It's different. It's just one of those things that's primitively.

We're not ready yet. of course some people do it well and they're in those marriages for a long time and I've interviewed them and they're in the book. You have like, tell me all your secrets. And you might be surprised what you read about these couples. So anyway, long rant to say, buy the book. I'm really proud of it. And I think that for couples to, you said, you know, you want it not to forget your male breadwinners in your audience. I think it's important for everyone to read, learn about this topic. I mean, if you don't want to read my book, fine. But at least like, educate yourself on this because you never know when your circumstances could change in your

relationship. You know, a lot of why there are female breadwinners now in marriages is partly because during the recession, a disproportionate number of jobs were lost to men. And some did not quite recover as as they would have liked. And in the meantime, their wives' careers took off. And that, I think, is a very delicate situation where you are married and you have a sort of specific arrangement and it's she makes less he makes more it's the same and then it changes and it was unexpected and you're now full of emotion and you don't know how to deal with it so i think that it's important for everyone to learn the what could be and it and even if not the lessons in the book i think that's something that a lot of couples could relate to and take and benefit from this idea of

you know how to create financial transparency in your relationship relationship, level the financial playing field. Because even if there's not income disparity, you might still be a world's apart as far as how you view money. Right. And your habits around money. And so the book addresses all those things as well. Right. And I'm glad you told the story about how you found that subconsciously you were taking more of the lead on decision making while Tim was staying a little quieter because that lesson also applies to the listeners who are breadwinning men in their household, you know, include your spouse in decision making, even if that spouse earns less. And even if that spouse doesn't care. And that's what you find too in relationships. I think it's

normal for one person in relationship to be more inclined to follow the money and manage the money. Usually it's, you know, just like we all have our own strengths and weaknesses, likes, dislikes. Money is the same thing. Some people gravitate more to it than others. Some people go, I don't want to look at money. I don't want to look at my balance sheet. And I think that person I would not want in the relationship being the primary money manager. But that said, I think it's important to include the other person to have transparency.

And so make it so that that other person who's not maybe keeping an eye on things all the time is aware of how things are getting managed. Could, if need be, step in and pay the bills if you can't. And at least quarterly, the two of you are sitting down either with a financial advisor or not, just reviewing the budget, making sure everything is, money is being spent as it should be, and that your goals are being catered to for the future. That's important. And that needs to happen in every relationship.

And it's not. Well, we will end on that note. Farnush, thank you so much for taking this time to talk to us about your show and your podcast and your book. Thank you. I'm so glad that you invited me. I'm so excited for this podcast of yours. I'm just sad that it took you up till now to launch it. But I think you're an important voice, Paula, in this space. And I'm so honored to be on your show. Thanks for your interests and all the things that I'm working on. And, you know, folks, if you're around to TV, Wednesday night on CNBC, I'll be there with Warby Parker, the founders. And it'll be fun to watch. I hope you'll join. We will include links to everything in the show notes. Thank you. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Take care.

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