Afford Anything - From High School Dropout to Successful Entrepreneur, Author and World Traveler -- with Chris Guillebeau

Episode Date: April 13, 2020

#251: Do you love the idea of making money on your own -- without a boss? Can you imagine deciding how you spend each day? Are you bored and looking for a challenge? Do you love the thought of adventure? Today’s guest, Chris Guillebeau, knows all about hustling, living an unconventional life, working towards seemingly impossible goals, and combining his interests into an epic lifestyle business that brings him freedom and joy. Chris is the New York Times bestselling author of The Art of Non-Conformity, The $100 Startup, and The Pursuit of Happiness. He has traveled to 193 countries, served four years as a volunteer on a hospital ship in West Africa, and is a successful speaker, writer, and entrepreneur. Oh yeah, and he’s a high school dropout. (A super accomplished high school dropout.) How did Chris accomplish so much without a high school degree? How did he forge a path toward his goals despite depression and anxiety? What advice does he have for aspiring side hustlers and entrepreneurs? Find out in today’s episode. For more information, visit the show notes at https://affordanything.com/episode251 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can afford anything, but not everything. Every decision that you make is a trade-off against something else, and that doesn't just apply to your money. That applies to your time, your focus, your energy, your attention, anything in your life that's a scarce or limited resource. That leads to two questions. Number one, what matters most to you? And number two, how do you make day-to-day decisions that line up with that?

Answering these two questions is a lifetime practice, and that's what this podcast is here to explore. My name is Paula Pant. I'm the host of the Afford Anything podcast. And today, New York Times bestselling author Chris Gillibault is on the show to talk about how he has mastered the art of living unconventionally and the art of nonconformity. Chris has traveled to 193 countries. He did that by the time he was 35. He spent four years volunteering in West Africa on a hospital ship.

He is the founder of the World Domination Summit, which is a massive yearly gathering of creative. of remarkable people held annually in Portland, Oregon. He is the author of many books, including The Art of Nonconformity, the $100 startup, the happiness of pursuit, side hustle, born for this, and his latest book, The Money Tree. So he's a New York Times bestselling author and a very prolific writer. And guess what? He's also a high school dropout.

He's a high school dropout and juvenile delinquent who, at the age of 19, asked himself, how can I not work a job? And it was from that point of origin that he became a successful entrepreneur, world traveler, and he eventually got a master's degree. So in this episode, Chris shares the steps that he took to get from being a high school dropout to being a successful entrepreneur author and world traveler.

So if you're into travel and adventure, if you want to start a side hustle, or if you want to take more control of your life, Have control over the hours in your day than this episode is for you. And if you want more, you can also check out episode 37 of the Afford Anything podcast because that was the first time that we interviewed Chris. You can find that at Afford Anything.com slash episode 37. So here is Chris Gillibow talking about how to lead a life that is truly your own.

Hi, Chris. Hey, Paula. Chris, I'd like to introduce your story to the people who are listening to this because you are known for having an entrepreneurial, unconventional life that's filled with mission-driven small business and adventure and travel. Walk us through that. Let's start with college age Chris. Who was college Chris? Yeah, it's always this dangerous question. You know, like tell us your story because you're like, where do I start with that? When you mention these things that I'm maybe known for, at least among a certain group of people, they sound very grandiose. You know, like,

oh, you're doing this and doing this and doing that and stuff. But I think it's very important to, just as you're directed there, let's go back because, you know, most people who are doing something really interesting or meaningful now, there's probably some origin to it that might not necessarily be grandiose or exciting or meaningful. And so I very much believe in mission-driven small business now. But when I was college age, Chris, you know, my main ambition was like, how can I not, you know, work a job, basically? Like, how can I not participate in traditional employment essentially. And I kind of learned, I guess, right around that time, if not earlier, that I'm essentially unemployable and really not good at working for other people. And I have this,

like, ADD personality type. It's not so much that I'm lazy. Like, I actually really like to work on things I believe in, but that's the key point. You know, and maybe some of the listeners can relate as well. Like, if I believe in something, it's like, I'll give 110%. You know, if I don't believe in it, I'll give 20%. And so that's very difficult to navigate, you know, most traditional careers and such. And so if we're going back to college age Chris, that's 21 years ago. And this new website called eBay.com, it just come out. And I learned to buy and sell things on it. So it was very, very basic.

You know, it's not like this big entrepreneurial thing. It was just like, I'm learning to like buy and resell things. And it felt so empowering. It felt so freeing. It was like, wow, I don't even know what I'm doing. And I'm making $15 an hour, which was like twice as much as I can make any job at that time. And, you know, it wasn't just that. it was also like there's so much flexibility to it. You know, if I learn more, maybe I'll make more,

but not just that. It's just like there's so many opportunities. So a lot of things kind of stem from that period of like realizing that there's another way, that there's another path out there. And if people are happy in a traditional career, that's great. But for me, I wasn't. And I'm so glad that I discovered that because that led to everything else that came next. Right. It sounds as though you discovered that quite early on, like to be in college and realize that you're unemployable, to have that realization before your career begins is quite early. What triggered that? Well, maybe it was kind of like reinforced as time went by. I don't know if I said I was unemployed when I was 19, but I think like the more years that progressed in working for myself,

then it certainly was reinforced. But I mean, to go back a little bit, you know, earlier, like I was a juvenile delinquent. I was a high school dropout. I didn't have a very good adolescence. I had a lot of just, you know, trouble and difficulty and such for all sorts of reasons. So I think that kind of element or that rebel part of personality was always with me, I just had to eventually learn to redirect it into something more positive. So I think the spirit was always there, but then the application kind of came later. I actually didn't know that part of you, Troy, that you dropped out of high school. Yep, I went to one year of high school and then, yeah, I left at age 16. And then I kind of snuck into college, the community college, because, you know,

they're not that stringent in terms of checking on stuff. And once they realized I actually hadn't graduated high school. It was like the second term. And I was doing pretty well. Like I actually liked college. And so they're like, well, let's let him stay. And then later I, you know, was able to transfer to a four-year institution. And as a transfer student, they're not looking at my high school, you know, background. They're looking at my transfer transcript. Wow. Did you ever end up getting a GED? Or do you? I don't think so. No, no. I mean, I got a master's degree later, you know, but, you know, never went back to do that. Yeah, it was interesting because I actually, I don't talk about this very often, but like I made it a little quest of like trying to graduate as quickly as I

could from college, not from high school because I still haven't completed that. But I started registering after the first couple of terms, I started registering at multiple community colleges. And then once I got in the four-year institution, I kept going to another community college. I think I did something by correspondence. And my whole goal is to just like transfer everything in the final term to get my degree. And so I did. And I finished it. I believe I was age 19 when I finished and went to graduate school for a year. And that was kind of a disaster. but I'm not sure what I learned, you know, in terms of like I was studying sociology. I'm not sure what I learned in terms of my field. But I definitely learned a little bit about life hacking and understanding like there's more than one way to do things, both entrepreneurally, but also in life in general, whether it's education or relationships or housing or travel or anything. There is this prescribed way and there might be at least one alternative. So that was very attractive. How did your family react to all of that? Yeah, I think they got used to. to it because like I said, I had some teenage years, which weren't so good in various institutions

and like some treatment centers and such. So I think by the time it was like, wow, Chris is actually like doing something like going to college and doing well. And then once I started making money, you know, they were like, well, that's, you know, that's Chris. That's good. I mean, I do think like the money thing though, entrepreneurially 21 years ago, not everybody was making money online. Like most people weren't. And so, you know, that's, you know, that's, you know, that's, you know, know, that was the kind of thing where I think they thought it was kind of strange. You know, I think they were like, that's a weird thing. When he's doing something on the internet, we hope it's not drugs.

You know, we hope it's not drugs or porn. And I'm like, you know, there are more than two industries, you know, online, basically. But that was the impression people had at the time. It was like this shady kind of thing. Whereas now, obviously, like we know, like every coffee shop and co-working space, you know, there's like a dozen people in there working on their little small business, which is great. But it wasn't that way back then. So then what happened after grad school?

Well, that one year of grad school was a disaster, as I said, I later went back and got a real message degree at the University of Washington. But in between that, I went and did a four-year commitment as a volunteer in West Africa. And I was living on a hospital ship for most of that time in Liberia and Sierra Leone. And that was just a very transformative experience. Really changed my life. It gave me a lot of confidence in terms of travel, in terms of cross-cultural stuff, in terms of leadership, like a lot of the lessons that I learned there, I kind of, I feel like I continue to apply in different ways. So I'm very grateful for that experience. And then it was, I guess I was like maybe, you know, 26, 27, 28 or so when I came back to the States and did the, you know, proper

graduate school thing. And then started the blog, the Art of Nonconformity, which is, you know, 11 years ago now. So tell me about your mindset at this time. So you've returned from West Africa, you finished grad school. What were you thinking in terms of the rest of your life, or at least the next five years? Yeah, I think what I was thinking, I was feeling a sort of discontent that was very healthy, a discontent in the sense of like, okay, I have done all these things. I do feel very fortunate that I found this way of life that works for me. And I found this way of life being able to be self-reliant, essentially.

Then I was able to go to grad school and just kind of pay my way through, whereas everybody else was going, into like really significant debt for it. And then also through the travel. And like I'd been to maybe 50 or 60 countries at that point. And so I was like, I have all this stuff, you know, but there's nothing that ties it together. There's nothing that like connects these threads.

Like if you, you know, search for my name online, there would be like three results. Like nothing there. It's not necessarily about like having more search engine results or being known, but it was the sense of like the lack of connection between those threads that bothered me. And so my goal was like,

let's tie this together, you know? And so start the blog, the art of nonconformity, tagline is like unconventional strategies for life, work, and travel, which if you think about it is incredibly broad. You know, it's like the opposite of what everybody's like, do you choose your niche? You know, like get really focused. I'm like, life, work and travel. Like, what else is there? Right.

And I did that partly for myself because of, like I said, you know, I have ADD. And I was like, I started lots of projects and then given up on them. I had started lots of things that I was really excited about for a while and then stopped. And I was like, I want this to actually be something. that I stick with for a long time. And so to do that, I have to allow myself room to grow with it, to room for it to change or evolve. And so, you know, I kind of went all in with that. And I guess right around that time also, I applied to PhD programs. And something that I am so thankful for, on a very regular basis is that I was rejected from just about all of them. And like, I think

five of my six, you know, choices were just, you know, rejections. If I had been accepted at one of the ones I was excited to. I probably would have went and done that. And I have no doubt that I would be a very mediocre academic. You know, like my best case scenario is that I would be like above average. Whereas, you know, that same year, I was like, well, let's go all in with writing and sharing online. I had these ideas. You know, I feel like there is more to life and nobody is approaching it from this perspective. I wonder if other people might be interested in it. Like going all in with that, you know, obviously has changed my life for the better. So I often think about that. I'm like so, so glad that it didn't work out this thing that I thought I wanted. Let's back up a little bit because there were

two details that you mentioned that I want to dig into. The first is that you paid your own way through grad school. How did you do that? Yeah, well, it cost $32,000. I remember I wrote a chapter about it, you know, in the art of nonconformity. And I was like, this is my $32,000 piece of paper, essentially. And, I mean, let's see. So, I mean, it's over the course of, you know, a couple of years. So when I started doing like the eBay stuff, I continued that for a while, I got back. at it. I learned to specialize a bit. And then there were all these like new technologies and new platforms and such that were starting up. I was around for the beginning of Google AdWords and AdSense, which of course is ubiquitous now, but for a while it's like very new. And when things are new,

there's often these opportunities for arbitrage. You know, for a long time, it was possible to like, had these like micro websites about travel or entrepreneurship or whatever. And you could, you know, buy traffic and send that traffic to a website that has Google Ads, you know, AdSense on it. And then you get paid more for actually sending those visitors on somewhere else. So I did like little things like that where I did affiliate marketing. I did some business consulting. I wasn't like building a huge business or anything, but it was enough for me to like have a good lifestyle. And, you know, again, to pay for that education. And so I think because of that, I didn't, I didn't really regret it at the grad school experience. I think a lot of my friends and colleagues who went through that experience, not just the money,

but also they were connecting it to a career. They were thinking like, oh, if I get this degree, then I'm going to get this good job or whatever. And there's not always a, a connection between those things. I think some of those folks are more disillusioned than me. What subject did you get your master's in? International relations. Yeah. So international studies, relations focused most on like governance in Africa, which is what I'd been doing before. I went there because I thought, well, my undergrad experience was super random. You know, I don't know if I actually learned anything. Maybe I'm missing out, basically. And I went and I did it and I'm like, actually, I don't think I was missing out on much, basically. The other thing that you said within the

story that I want to pause on is that by the time you'd finished grad school, you had already traveled to about 50 to 60 countries. Now, you've mentioned living on a hospital ship in West Africa, but where did the 50 to 60 countries come from? Yeah, well, let's see. I mean, probably had about 10 countries in West Africa itself. I mean, then we sailed to South Africa and Southern Africa. Every year, the ship would go to Europe for a few weeks to do like dry dock and public relations and such. We had a number of countries there. I had traveled a lot of little bit in Asia, China, Hong Kong, Thailand, et cetera. When I was a kid, my parents divorced and my mom married the sky in the Air Force. So we lived a bunch of places. We lived in the Philippines

for two years. So like age six to age eight and a half or nine was spent there. So it was just kind of like a cumulative thing. And then after a while, it was like admittedly a goal. Like I was like, oh, if I'm in one country, like, what's the neighboring country and how do I get there? You know, I was just really motivated by this idea of, you know, how can I go to as many places as possible, which then led, of course, to the quest to go to every country in the world, which is a big part of, like, the start of the art of nonconformity. And I'm going to be writing about these ideas, and I'm going to actually be visiting every country in the world, you know, sharing the journey along the way for anybody who cares. And so let's talk about that since you've

brought that up. When did that quest to go to every country in the world start? It was 192 countries, correct? It was 192, and then there was one that added, like, you know, towards the end, South Sudan. It ended up being 193 at the end. But when did it start? Well, it was also an evolution. I didn't start with not having been anywhere, you know, went to Mexico once and then was like, okay, I'm going to go to every country in the world. It started out of a love of travel and out of like that confidence that I gained from traveling in West Africa, which is one of the most difficult regions in the world, if not the most difficult to kind of go back, go around in. And, you know, when I was there, I thought that was how it was everywhere, basically. And so then I started going

other places like, oh, this is really easy, actually. And so I think I had a goal first of doing a hundred countries. And I was like, I had like the 50 or whatever. And I was like, let me get to 100. And then, because I did the math on it. And I was like, my friends are buying SUVs where they cost like $30,000, you know, and that's fine. If that's your priority, you know, do that. But I worked out that it would basically cost me like another $30,000, you know, to go from whatever I was at to 100 countries. And I was like, man, that's cheap. You know, like not saying $30,000 is cheap, but like the life, experience I'm going to get out of that, the lessons that I'll learn, the experiences I'll have,

like, just being able to say that I've done that. That's worth so much to me. And so I kind of worked toward the 100. And then as I got close to the 100, it's like this is like a principle of like goal setting, right? Like as you, you know, set these goals, you get close to them. And then you have more confidence and experience. You're like, maybe actually I can do more. So then it was like, yeah, if you go to 100 countries, you can pick and choose your countries. So it's like, you always have a way out. You know, if something is difficult, you're like, oh, I just won't go there. You know, it's hard to get a visa to Pakistan or whatever, so I'll just go, you know, somewhere else. I'll just go to India. But then it was like, I want to go to every country, no exception, you know. And so that kind of what made it more of a challenge and more interesting to me.

How did you calculate that 30,000 number to get you from, what, 50 or 60 countries up to the 100? That's a great question. I mean, this is going back like 15 years. I remember thinking about it and like outlining on a train. I was like, you know, riding a train through Eastern Europe or something. And it's a very rough estimate. It's not like I have a spray. sheet and I'm like, here's exactly what this is going to cost. I'm just thinking about airfare and thinking about visas and thinking about lodging and such. And it was also pretty frugal back then. I was really like, you know, I would stay in hostels and such. And I learned a lot about travel hacking along the way. So I'm like using miles and points to make it, you know, more possible and feasible.

So it was an estimate. It's not like it cost exactly $30,000. But it was like, that's my rough number. At this point in your story, you're 27 or 28 years old. You've finished grad school. you've started the art of nonconformity. You've started this website. You are on an entrepreneurial path, and you're also traveling quite a bit at this time. Did you have any sense of where you were going to go, or were you basically just trying to juggle entrepreneurship and travel and just sort of cobble together a life based on your interests?

Yeah. I mean, I was 30 then. I was like 30 when it started, so a couple years later. And there's a little bit of cobbling and a little bit of like juggling, as you said. My goal was my goal was integration though my goal was like alignment which is different than balance like I was never seeking balance but I was seeking that all these things kind of work together in some way or fashion and I didn't as I said have a business goal you know for the project that was more just like as I paid attention to what people were asking me for but it was all very new it was new and it was fresh and like I did a meet up you know for the first time I forget where the first one was but like the second one was in New York and with Jonathan Fields he and I had like 50 people that came out and I was like wow who are these people they all have like

interesting stories of their own I was like this is so powerful like I thought I was just writing like a simple little travel log you know which I was actually never really good at writing destination travel pieces and then once I had those experiences of the meetups and like starting reading people's emails and such I'm like oh this is so much deeper so much deeper and it's actually a lot of um you know depth as I said but just a lot more to it than I first understood like people have these emotional needs, this longing for connection, this longing for belonging. And they, for whatever reason, don't feel like they belong in their existing circles or with their friends or with their family or maybe they have a goal, a dream of their own, to do something that seems a little bit wild

or weird or crazy. And if there's something that I can do to support them or bring them together, then that has so much power. Like, that has value that exceeds anything that I could do on my own, especially, like, just my own little travel stuff. Like, this is so much more important. So you started seeing the service connection to what you were doing, to the work that you were doing? Right, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, which I had a little bit because, like, from that background of being a volunteer aid worker and such for years, I definitely felt like whatever entrepreneurial conversation was happening elsewhere was kind of, you know, omitting that or, you know, it would be like a very random reference to it, you know, it was like I went to a couple of conferences, which were about making money and nothing wrong with making money. Like, I have a podcast that talks about making money, of course. But it was very much like this. two days of here's all the little tricks you can do with Google AdWords and such. You know, at the end of like the two-day conference, like in the final like two minutes, you know, the host is like, oh, and here's what we're doing, you know, here's our service project.

And it's just like there has to be a better way to like make this more aligned, you know, more integrated. So then how did you approach that in your early 30s? As you continue to travel, as you continued to grow your business, how did you figure out how to align those values of travel, service, and entrepreneurship? I think it's a journey. I think I'm continuing to learn to do that. But there's different expressions of them. You know, it's different, like, as I did the meetups, I was like, this is really powerful. So when my first book came out, I was like, I'm going to go to all 50 states and meet people.

And so I did that. And then we started World Domination Summit, which is completely non-profit, non-commercial, no-sponsor event with our profits going to this foundation called scholarships for real life. and I did a project in partnership with Scott Harrison from Charity Water, who I used to work with me in Africa, like, you know, going back, I don't know how many years now, 15 or so. So there's different expressions of it. I don't think I have the one component or one piece that's like, and here is the answer. I think about all these values, like adventure, service, you know, my own joy and fulfillment and meaning, if you're like missing one of those, you start to notice.

And I think that it's helpful to give some attention to that one. And then maybe over time you realize that or something else is a little bit out of alignment. So it's not a perfect process. Did you suffer from imposter syndrome during this period? I mean, I still do. I mean, I still compare myself. And I think that's to people and that's a terrible. I know it's not a good thing, right?

It's like I know intellectually, like, this is not a helpful exercise to look at somebody else and be like, oh, you know, they have more X, whatever X is. You know, more readers, followers, money, attention, fame, whatever it is. that you end up chasing. So I had some of that. The other thing I realized about imposter syndrome is we all have a true self. We all have an authentic self. And you know when you are showing up in the world authentically because you just feel it. Like you can feel when you're counterfeiting or projecting or presenting something and you can feel when you're showing up authentically. I remember, Paula, when I heard you speak at, I think it was FinCon. And then after that, I was like, oh, come and speak at WDS. I was so impressed because I was like, wow, you know, you were

showing up authentically. It's just so obvious. So other people can recognize it too, but hopefully you felt it. When you are counterfeiting or not living out your authentic self, then that's when you were actually being an imposter. So you think you're an imposter when you're the one who's like trying to put yourself forward or trying to accomplish a big goal, but actually the imposter is the one who is holding back. You know, the imposter is the one that's like you've got this dream, but you're not following up on it. You know, you should honor that dream and move forward and regardless of what happens. And that's when you're going to be your most true authentic self.

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Were there any other doubts, or are there any other doubts that you face? What are they and how do you cope with them? I've had mental health issues. I've struggled with depression and anxiety for a long time. And I actually have started to get better just actually acknowledging that as opposed to pretending it's not there or thinking it's something to be cured from or whatever. So I've been on a process and a journey. I go to therapy. I've been the through difficult hard times in my life and tried to regroup and recover. So I constantly have doubts. I guess for me the goal is to not to not have doubts or to not have fear or that to me is like a superficial objective and not really, I don't know, feasible. To me it's like those things are

there, but also I'm going to do this other thing I believe in. You know, those things are there, but also I'm going to pursue this goal. I'm going to, you know, I'm an introvert, but I'm going to go out and give talks all across the country. I'm going to, you know, whatever the thing is, you know, if you're listening to this, like, project your own experience on it and say, what is that thing I'm afraid of, what I know I need to do. As long as you make progress toward that and do it, it doesn't matter what your fears and doubts are, because your actions are aligned with, you know, again, your true self. Right. Right. And one point that you've made is that 99% of it is the execution of the idea. Ideas itself are cheap. Yeah. I mean, do you ever have people, Paula, who are like

ask you about ideas. They think they're ideas. I want to tell you about my idea, but I'm afraid to talk about it because people are going to steal it or, you know, like somebody like sign an NDA before I tell you about my idea. I'm like, look, man, I do not have time to steal your idea. You have the best idea in the world. I do not have time to follow up on it because I have enough ideas of my own. And so the value is in executing or implementing or actually doing something about those ideas. Now, speaking of ideas and speaking of execution, a few years ago, you started a podcast that focuses on side hustles. First of all, what made you choose that topic specifically? Yes. Well, I mean, I use that phrase. Side hustle. So like the podcast is called side hustle school.

But I mean, that's just like a packaging for it. It's a rapper. You know, like what I'm trying to do with it is my intention was to tell stories. And I felt there was kind of a gap, you know, like, I hate this like business language, but like there was a gap in the marketplace. There were lots of extended interviews, but nobody was actually like, here's a really short show that's actually like doing a case study model of not a startup, not like how I built this, but like a real person out there who's found a way to make money for themselves without quitting their day job. I think that was a key part because I'm probably guilty of this myself, assuming that everybody wants to be an entrepreneur and that's not true, right? Like a lot of people are actually very fulfilled working for the right

company or organization or a lot of people just can't quit their job for all kinds of reasons, you know, that are valid and real. But I do believe everybody can do something to create a source of income, which will then give them more options, which will then help them have more confidence, build a bridge to whatever it is they want to do in the future. And so I think I was like a combination of things, nobody is telling stories this way. And then this whole market of people who have jobs but want to make more money is overlooked because all the other entrepreneurial resources are telling them that your objective is to quit your job. What are some of your favorite stories that you've heard or that you've retold? Oh, I knew you're going to ask me that.

I've done 1,100 episodes, and it's always like, how do I pick the story? It's got people who are like making money playing video games, which is always the thing I used to talk about how you can't just follow your passion. And there's so many things you can be passionate about that other people aren't going to value. I used to be really good at eating pizza and playing video games, but nobody came along to give me a paycheck for it, which was like a really good line. But now there's actually people getting paid to play video games, you know, like on Twitch or whatever. I did the story of this guy who's making $60,000. And I'm like, wow, you know, that's interesting. All kinds of people that are doing, whether it's stuff online, I did that story recently

about a music teacher who earned $100,000 on Fiverr, which, you know, is ironic because Fiverr was originally like $5 services. But she was able to, over time, build up this whole thing. Did a story about this coder who created this birthday reminder system. I ended up earning like passive income from it. People just doing kind of unusual things. There's a woman in Australia who draws houses. She like sketches people's homes and sells those homes and was able to go full-time with it eventually.

And then some people who create a business that actually does very, very well, maybe six figures or more of it. They continue in their job because they like their job, which is also pretty cool. Yeah. And what I love about side hustle is just as you said is that it gives people who have a job that they either can't or don't want to quit an opportunity to not be limited by their potential future raise. Like they're not limited by the income that they make at that one job. Yeah, exactly. And also, even if you have the greatest job in the world, that situation could change. And so wouldn't it be great to, like, go to work every day because you want to be there, you know, not because you have to be there.

And I've actually heard a lot of stories about how it helps people be a better employee, which is also kind of counterintuitive. But some people say, like, they're actually giving more to their employer. And their employer recognizes as well, like, in turn, this person is here because, again, they want to be here. everybody else is here for a paycheck, and of course, they need a paycheck too, but they're actually invested in this. So it can be a positive cycle for everyone. For the people who are listening to this, who are thinking at this moment, I would like to have a side hustle, but I don't know where I would

possibly find the time for it, and particularly people who either are taking care of their elderly parents or they have young children or both. What advice would you have for how people can can find the time to have a side hustle in an already packed life. Yes. Well, I'm so glad you asked that because I think that is a common question, a common conundrum, a common struggle among lots of people. I think it's also true, you know, this whole statement about like if you want to get something done, ask a busy person to do it, because some of the people that I have profiled that have been the most successful are teachers or people who are like,

stay at home moms or dads or other people with a lot of responsibility. like they have these like full packed lives but somehow they're able to do this too. I think the wrong answer is the platitudinal answer which is like oh if you really want this you know you just need to like work harder and sleep less. You know you need to get up one hour earlier every I hear people say that all the time. Just start getting up 30 minutes hour like most people who are listening maybe not most but a lot of people who are listening I would suggest are probably sleep deprived already. So the answer is not to give up everything in your life. Somehow though you know somehow you do need to carve out a little. bit of time and start with the right idea, which is a lot of what I do, like, what are the skills that you have that can be transformed or adapted in a money-making way, starting with the right idea? And then what needs to happen to turn this skill into something that people pay for, product or service? So just kind of knowing at the outset what you're trying to do, I think helps because it's very, very easy to get overwhelmed with all the resources out there and all the different advice and do I do this? Do I buy Facebook ads? Like, oh, I'm not an influencer on Instagram.

Oh, I'm not, you know, here's the new social media platform that launched, you know, yesterday. And here's the one that's coming tomorrow. Just simplifying a little bit and like, what is the basic iteration of this product or service? How can we get it out to the world? The sidestle book I wrote, like the subtitle was The Idea to Income in 27 days. I was trying to create this really simple process where, you know, you're not going to have a six-figure business in 27 days. But can you actually make a small amount of money? Then I think, yes.

And then with a small amount of money where that often leads to something more. In the new book, The Money Tree, this guy has a challenge of making $1,000 in a week. And the mentor figure kind of gives him this challenge and says, Jake, what would you do if you had to make $1,000 in a week? And at first, he's like, well, I don't know. If I knew that, I wouldn't be in the situation that I'm in. The mentor kind of gives him a couple of clues. And he goes away and thinks about it. And actually, he's able to figure something out.

And what he figures out is reselling essentially. It's like reselling his textbooks and such, which is something that everybody has access to. the thing that I did 21 years ago to get started as an entrepreneur, quote unquote, is still accessible, you know, and available to people today. In fact, when you were saying that your first foray into entrepreneurship as a college student was selling things on eBay, it immediately made me think of that scene in the book. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it's weird that still things change so much. And I think it's important to like pay attention to, you know, how different mediums and such are evolving. But the art of reselling, it kind of goes back hundreds and hundreds

of years, thousands of years maybe since the beginning of commerce and since people were trading essentially. And now it's actually even more feasible and easy to reach so many people because of globalization and e-commerce and all that good stuff. How has your relationship with money changed over the span of your story? I think one thing is the most obvious or basic thing, but it's still, I think it's still important to mention is now I'm much better off than I was when I was younger and I don't worry about stuff as much. I don't pay attention as much to what things cost, especially if it's like at a restaurant or something.

I usually order what I want for the most part, which is still something that I'm getting used to. Like it's been like that for a while now, but for so long it was like, what's the cheapest thing? You know, how can I not pay, you know,

I don't know, whatever it is. I remember when I was 16 or probably a little bit younger. I had this terrible diet as a kid. I ate at McDonald's or Burger King, you know, three or four times a week. I remember thinking like as a, as a teenager, start to get my own money and such, I'd go to McDonald's. I remember thinking,

one day, if I have enough money that I can eat at McDonald's every single day, whenever I want, then I'll have really made it. You know, obviously it didn't take too long to get to that point. But I was in, I was in Hong Kong, maybe like a year or two ago, and it was at the W Hotel. Fortunately, my breakfast was free because I have Starward status or whatever, but the hotel breakfast would have cost $35. I was like, you know what? $35, very, very expensive for breakfast. However, if I had to pay for it, I could. And so I think it was at that moment, I was like, wow, I feel really well off. The fact that I could spend $35 for breakfast if I had to do. So I think that's a big thing, just not being as stressed about some of the smaller stuff. When I used to travel, I was really hard on myself in the early days of like, I'm never going to take a taxi. I'm only going to take the public transportation in Romania or whatever it is. And learning that there were small things I could spend money on to actually make my life measure. better was really important. I made this rule for myself called the $10 rule. If something can make my life better, it costs $10 or less, I'm not going to overthink it. I'm just going to like buy it. And,

you know, when I was younger, I wouldn't necessarily be able to do that or at least I would struggle with it. Right. And it sounds as though that rule allows you to prioritize your time and your convenience while also putting a reasonable limit on it. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also evolved a little bit now. I mean, don't have a figure for it, but if something is $15, I might not think too much about it. I don't like to drive. Driving stresses me out. Some cities I go to, I might rent a car, but the vast majority of the time, I'm going to use Uber or Lyft to get around. And obviously, that costs money, but that's something I value and causes me to not be as stressed and I can work from the back of the car or just chill out. And that makes my life better. And so I'm happy

to spend money on it. Didn't you say that when you were a kid, you wanted to work at either Burger King or be an astronaut? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Yeah, it was Burger King because, yeah, my dad worked for NASA. And so that's where the astronaut connection came in. But then Burger King was my favorite restaurant for six-year-old Chris. And so when adults would ask me, you know, they're always asking kids, what do you want to be when you grow up? And every other kid's like the president or the basketball player or whatever.

And I was like, I want to work at Burger King. Because if it's the greatest restaurant, you know, in the world, why wouldn't people want to be there every day in the mindset of a six-year-old? And, yeah, I mean, fortunately, I grew up and I no longer even. at Burger King either. I mean, I became vegetarian maybe 15 years ago, but I don't have any regrets about the early Burger King years. That resonated with me as well. When I was a kid, I wanted to either work at Taco Bell or be a veterinarian. Oh, wow. And you didn't end up doing either one of those things. Exactly. Exactly. That's very funny. I even applied to Taco Bell when I was in high school, and they rejected me because you had to be 16 and I was only 15.

Wow. Well, it is a competitive interview process. Exactly. You have talked to at this point thousands of people who have started side hustles. Have you seen any patterns or themes in terms of how their relationship with money has evolved as they've started making more, but also as they've also started compressing their time in order to make more? Yeah. One thing I think is really good is paying yourself, like right from the beginning. I hear from people that like I'm putting all my profits back into the business. I don't think that's a good idea. I think it's really important to actually pay yourself and see the rewards from what you've done, even if it's not a lot of money. People that just kind of keep putting the money back, I think it's less meaningful or it feels less tangible in some ways. So what I have noticed going on tour and asking people, I always ask people, who here has a side hustle, probably like half the room, you're going to raise their hand. And then I say, like, who here remembers the first time you got paid for that project or for the first time you got paid apart from your paycheck. paycheck at a job, probably half of those people will remember it. So it's obviously this memorable thing.

It feels, this is why like if you go to like the pizza place, they have the dollar bill framed. You know, it's like the first dollar that people paid for the pizza place or the cafe or whatever. So I think it's important to remember your first dollar. That's why I'm trying to help people, like I know I've used some like larger numbers in some of this conversation and I talked about having a six figure business or whatever. But I think it's so cool when people have $500 a month coming in that they've never had before and that they have never, like, created this income source on their own. It makes them feel different. You know, it is significant. That's your car payment or whatever else you need to do. And it gives you, like, hope for the future. So I think maybe one thing is

don't think so much about your startup. Don't think much about your, like, business plan. Think about how can I make $1,000 in a month or whatever the number is because that will very likely lead to something much greater later. And one theme that I keep hearing from you is, is, is that is simplify, don't do the business equivalent of keeping up with the Joneses or having shiny object syndrome, just keep it simple, keep it small, and then let it grow organically. I mean, that's how it has been for me. I don't suggest that this is universally true, but I try to be careful and only talk about what I know to talk about. People ask me about angel investing. I'm like, I got no idea. I'm not your person for that. What I can tell you about

is, you know, my life experience and then all the travel I've done for 20 years and talking with Lots of people who don't identify with the startup world. They don't necessarily want to, like, go to the bank and borrow a lot of money to start a business, which is the traditional way. But yet, they're still able to, like, find something within themselves. These, you know, middle America, accidental entrepreneurs, side hustlers, whatever phrase, probably other phrases, those are my people, you know, and that's who I'm trying to speak to and speak for. We'll come back to this episode in just a minute.

But first, get you and your crew to the big shows with Go Transit. Go connects to all the main concert venues like TD Coliseum in Hamilton and Scotia Bank Arena in Toronto, and Go makes it affordable with special e-ticket fairs. A one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel across the network on any weekend day or holiday for just $10. And a weekday group pass offers the same weekday travel flexibility from $30 for two people and up to $60 for five. Buy yours at go transit.com slash tickets. Let's talk about your new book, The Money Tree. What's unusual about it is that it's a fiction story. It's narrative fiction that contains a lot of money lessons. And there are not many books like that. Like The Latte Factor by David Bach is like that. The Richest Man in Babylon is like that. And The Wealthy Barber by David Chilton is like that. Those are the only three that I can name. So yours is number four.

Yeah, there's not many of them. It's not like I had a goal of like I want to write this kind of book. The subtitle is a story about finding the fortune in your own backyard. I did like the idea of, I did like the idea of, reaching people who don't read how-to books, you know, or business books. I did like that idea. Like, you know, I want these ideas to be out more in the mainstream. But as for the story itself, it just kind of came to me and I sat with it for several months, just like making notes and like outlining and trying to understand who these characters are because that's not a process I've ever gone through. And then I finally started writing it and pretty much wrote the whole first draft before I shared any of it with anybody, you know, even my agent. I'm like, hey, by the way, I've got a book, you know. And from the nonfiction world,

you don't write a book, you write a book proposal. You write like a sample chapter and then you take that to the publisher and then you go from there. But with fiction, you typically write the whole book. And so that was very different. But I think I wrote me seven or eight drafts of this book and I have never done that before either. Like it's only like four drafts and then I'm like done. But this I really wanted to just be mindful of, you know, just the dialogue and the setting and how can I tell an engaging story that also is teaching people something, leaving them with something. And so I think that's a hard thing to do. And how can you put lessons in there while still making it feel like a realistic narrative?

Yeah, well, that is exactly the goal, right? To not be did that at the end of the chapter, like, here's the bullet points, you know, from the chapter. Like, did you learn this point? Did you really learn it? Okay, I'm going to tell it to you one more time, you know, just the traditional self-help way. But I think you actually absorb the lesson more if you can, like, if you put it in the form of a story, like you remember this story and like people who have read the book stuff. like it's just out now, right? But the early readers that I'm hearing from, they're connecting

with the characters. They have this emotional reaction. They kind of see the character goes through this experience of feeling pressure from all of the debts, not sure what to do, how to get ahead, even though they have a good job. The main character, Jake, is representative of a lot of people out there these days, but then he's able to overcome things and encounter struggles and face various points along the way. So as to how it's done, I don't know if I have like a short answer for how you sneak these lessons in while still making it engaging. But that was definitely my goal. What are the main lessons that you hope that people take out of this? Well, all of my work, broadly speaking, is ultimately about self-reliance. It is ultimately about helping people understand

that the power is within them. Like, they already know a lot. There's a lot of knowledge out there in the world. It's good to learn, et cetera. But your life experience is powerful. And And when I started the art of nonconformity, my mantra for that essentially is you don't have to live your life the way others expect. All these years later, I'm still kind of talking about that in different forms. And so with this book in particular, there's a kind of recurring motif that comes up about how you can do more than you think. And maybe you thought this entrepreneurial thing or this sidestling thing was inaccessible to you for whatever reason, but actually, you know, you can do it. And here are these other people that are doing it. and it's not always a linear process. There are missteps and such, but those who are successful

are the ones that keep at it and are willing to adjust and adapt and one thing doesn't work out. They don't necessarily keep trying the same thing. That's a recipe for failure too. But they're willing to say, okay, that one didn't work. What else can I do? So ultimately it is about affirmation and self-reliance, but in this practical way. I'm trying to show people, okay, practically speaking, if you need to make money next week or next month, what then can you do? How can you start a service business? How can you be a reseller or something totally different? Actually, you raised a good point. How do you know when to stick with something versus when to pivot? So I have this two question tests. Let me say first of all that I'm a big fan of encouraging people to move on from stuff because I feel like in the culture, like we're always telling people the opposite.

We're always hearing like persistence is so important. Just keep trying like this person is successful because they never gave up. And I actually think for every, you know, for every motivational, inspirational quote that you can post on Instagram about how you should just start, you can actually replace that word with stop. And it's actually just as impactful, maybe more, because nobody says it. You know, like the, you know, the best time to start was last year, but now today's good. Well, the best time to stop this thing that wasn't working was probably a long time ago. But here we are now. So stop.

A year from now, you'll wish you had started. So you could do that a little bit. But as for the, when do you keep going, when do you not? You ask yourself, you know, first of all, is it working? Is this idea actually working out? And then secondly, do I still enjoy it? And I think these are the kind of keys, basically. And so if it's working and you still enjoy it, then that's great.

You keep doing it. You know, you keep doing your podcast or whatever the thing is. If it is not working and you're no longer enjoyed, well, you stop. And so it's only at the intersection when the answers are in conflict, in which you need to kind of do a little bit more analysis, right? And like if it's not working, but you still believe in the idea, like fundamentally, maybe there's something you need to change about it. Maybe you can keep pursuing this idea, but something needs to be tweaked,

whether it's the messaging or the offer or the price or the specific product or whatever. Yeah, and that hits on exactly what was going to be my follow-up question. If something is not working yet, but you think that it might work in the future, maybe it'll work in three months or six months. What is the line between persistence and delusion? Yes. I don't know if there's like a, you know, it's 47 days, right? At day 46, it's okay, but 48 is too long, right? I think in general, with a lot of these kinds of projects, the stakes are low. And that's why they're so interesting because you're not investing a ton of money. You invest money once it's working. If something's working, then you're like, okay, maybe there is something I need to invest in design or advertise. or whatever. But in the beginning, it's like this is not spending a lot of money. It is my time, which of course is valuable, but hopefully you're like morning along the way. So I guess it's like when you start to feel stuck. And that, which is also a sign that it's not working. You know,

something might not be working, but there's still like 10 things you have to try. If you've got 10 things on your list and keep doing that, like go through that list. But then once you kind of reach that point, whether it's day 46 or some other day, that's when it's like, okay, maybe actually it's better to like take a step back. And I think the most successful people in life are the ones who we're not afraid to say, actually, glad I did that, or maybe I'm not glad I did that, whatever it is, I'm doing something new now. Right. Yeah, you yourself have said it takes 279 days to get to overnight success. Right, right. Yeah. Well, we're reaching the end of our time. Are there any final messages that you would like to leave us with?

Oh, I mean, this has been a wonderful conversation. I feel like we've covered a lot of stuff. It has been a big honor, and I hope the listeners enjoyed it. And I would love to connect with them and hear from them at some point. whenever it's good for them. Perfect. And where can people find you if they would like to know more about you and your work? Yes. Well, the new book is called The Money Tree. You can go to MoneyTreebook.com or ask for it at your local bookstore or Amazon or whatever. My blog is called The Art of Nonconformity. It's at Chris Gillibow.com, which is a challenge to spell, I realize. But if you type in something close to Chris Gillibow, it will take you to me, or you can search for the $100 startup or your art of nonconformity or anything like that. And on Instagram, I am 193 countries.

and three countries. Thank you, Chris. What are some of the key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Here are five. Number one, make your major life decisions around your values. Chris knew what his values were. He knew that he valued travel and adventure. He valued entrepreneurship.

He valued service and mission-driven projects. He valued joy and meaning in his work. So he had identified and clarified his values, but he had no idea how to tie them together at first. How could he find work that tied it together? His quest for that and his ultimate ability to accomplish that, to create the type of work that did bring that all together, that all started with him first,

clarifying exactly what those values are. I think about all these values, like adventure, service, you know, my own joy and fulfillment and meaning, if you're like missing one of those, you start to notice. And I think that it's helpful to give some attention to that. one. And then maybe over time you realize that or something else is a little bit out of alignment. So think about what your values are. What's missing in your life? How can you tie your values together or live more in alignment with them? Is there a change that you can make either in

your personal life, in your career, in your hobbies that will help you feel more fulfilled? Ask yourself those questions and start pivoting, start zigzagging accordingly. So that is key takeaway number one. Key takeaway number two. acknowledge your doubts and persist in spite of them. Chris has struggled with depression and anxiety, but he didn't let that defeat him. He acknowledged that that is there. He acknowledged that his battle with depression and his battle with anxiety

is a part of his life. And he worked toward and achieved his goals anyway. And this lesson is also useful for anybody who's, approaching a new project. Maybe you want to start a side hustle. Maybe you're thinking about making a career change. Maybe you're thinking about buying your first rental property. Maybe you're thinking about opening an investment account for the first time. And maybe what you're feeling is fear. Acknowledge it and then take action anyway because that fear never goes away, but we can take action despite it. For me, the goal is to not have doubts or to not have fear or that to me is like

a superficial objective and not really, I don't know, feasible. To me, it's like those things are there, but also I'm going to do this other thing I believe in. As Chris said, the goal isn't to not have doubts or fear. Doubts and fear are normal. But you don't have to give them control. You can coexist with them and proceed despite them. And if you believe in the work that you're doing, then that belief, that mission becomes more important than what you're doubts are trying to feed into you. So that is key takeaway number two. Key takeaway number three,

simplify your side hustle. You don't need to go big right out of the gates. Chris didn't. He took an idea that had been around for centuries and he implemented it online. So all you need is an idea and often it doesn't even need to be an original one. In order to start simple, ask yourself these two questions. What are the skills that you have that can be transformed or adapted in a money-making way, starting with the right idea, and then what needs to happen to turn this skill into something that people pay for? If you're not sure about the answers to these two questions, you can ask your friends and family members what they think you're skilled at, because sometimes we can be blind to our own strengths. You can also go through the thought exercise or go through the

actual exercise of that challenge that Chris described from the money tree, the book the money tree, how can you earn $1,000 in one week or in one month? If you challenge yourself to earn an extra $1,000 this month, okay, what would you do? How would you do it? Go. And the way that you would approach that, you know, it might not be the type of business that you would build long term, But that exercise, that what can you do to make a thousand bucks by deadline, that gets you to think more creatively. Also, remember, keep it simple because keeping it simple helps you take action sooner. It's easy to overwhelm yourself with endless amounts of research or endless tinkering and trying to make it perfect right out of the gate. Work on creating your offer, then release it to the world, and then iterate.

Learning by doing. So that is key takeaway number three. Key takeaway number four, pay yourself first. Many new entrepreneurs and side hustlers want to reinvest their profits back into their business. And that's a great move down the road. But Chris says you need to pay yourself first. And here's why. It's really important to actually pay yourself and see the rewards from what you've done,

even if it's not a lot of money. It makes them feel different. You know, it is significant. That's your car payment or whatever else you need to do. and it gives you, like, hope for the future. Paying yourself first gives you a tangible form of success. You earned that money. Let yourself savor it.

Instead of moving to the next opportunity and not letting yourself celebrate your success, allow yourself to bask in it. Whatever you earn from your side hustle or your business is yours, and you can create more of it. This is just the start. So enjoy it. Celebrate your win. celebrate your success, and then keep growing, keep iterating that product to service,

keep pushing the envelope, keep moving forward. So that is key takeaway number four, and key takeaway number five, evaluate your idea. No one likes spinning their wheels or hitting a roadblock, but how can you tell whether your business or side hustle idea is worth pursuing? As I asked in the interview, what is the distinction between being persistent and being delusional? When do you keep going and when do you recognize that it's time to pivot? That's a complex question.

And as Chris points out, side hustles are not linear. You need to adjust and adapt. So instead of getting stuck and staying stuck, ask yourself this. As for the, when do you keep going, when do you not? You ask yourself, first of all, is it working? Is this idea actually working out? And then secondly, do I still enjoy it? And I think these are the kind of keys.

If you answer yes to both of those questions, then great. But if you answer no to both, then your answer is also clear. And if there's one yes and one no, you need to reevaluate. Think about what you can tweak in order to revive and enjoy your idea. If there's nothing, remember, there's no shame in moving on and pursuing something else. Embrace the attitude of, all right, that didn't work, what else can I do? Because there are many opportunities out there that you can take advantage of. Don't become disillusioned, don't get caught in sunk cost fallacy.

We often hear the advice to just start, but what happens when you flip that on its head and tell yourself, you know what, just stop. If something's not working, stop. Pivot, re-evaluate, adjust, adapt. But stop the thing that's not working. Oh, and here's a litmus test. When you think about other opportunities, are you more excited about those than you are about your current project? Now, you don't want to give in to every shiny object syndrome impulse, but if you feel like you're just punching the clock at your current project, then that's a sign something needs to change. So that is the fifth and final

key takeaway from this conversation with Chris Gillibault. By the way, in this episode, we talked a lot about side hustles, entrepreneurship, starting your own business, making money on your own terms. If you are interested in building a website, whether that's a website for your business, a website to showcase your products or services, if you are a freelancer, a website so that you can showcase your portfolio, highlight some of your work, we've worked out a special deal with a hosting company called Bluehost. Normally, the hosting for your website. So every website needs to be hosted somewhere on the internet. You can't have a website without hosting. So with Bluehost, normally the hosting is $7.99 per month, but we've worked out a deal with them. It's an exclusive

offer for afford anything fans, and it is only $2.95 per month. So for less than $3 per month, you can set up a website, get hosting, have your website online. So that is an affiliate link, but it's a great discount for anybody who wants to use. it. So again, for less than $3 a month, you can start a website. You can get this deal by going to afford anything.com slash bluehost. That's afford anything.com slash blue host. And if you're not sure how to set up a website, we've created a tutorial. Free tutorial, it's called How to Start a Blog in five minutes. It shows step by step how to start a website or a blog on a Blue Host hosted account. you can access that tutorial at afford anything.com slash start a blog.

That's affordanything.com slash start a blog. So thought I'd throw that out there since we've talked so much about side hustles and entrepreneurship in today's show. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you want to discuss this episode with other people in the community, head to Afford Anything.com slash community. That's where you can access our free community platform in which you want to discuss this episode. we have people from all over the world talking about a huge variety of issues, everything ranging from side hustles to world travel, to investing, to retirement planning, to financial independence. You can organize yourself based on topics or themes so you can follow certain topics.

If there's a particular thing that you're really interested in, like paying off debt, for example, or life after financial independence, you can follow that. particular topic. And you can join specific tribes of people who are organized around particular topics or particular geographic locations. You can meet other people in your city or state. You can join tribes of people who are organized around age groups. So it's a really cool way for people in this community to come together, hang out with each other, and get that community support. It's all free. And it's at afford anything.com slash community. That's Afford Remember every Thursday, we roll out an episode called PSA Thursday, in which we talk about

how to manage this new world that we're all living in. So as of the time of this recording, it is April 2020. We are in the middle of a pandemic. Many people have been laid off or they've had their hours reduced. Many people are working from home, often for the first time. The stock market is incredibly volatile. crashed and then it rose and who knows what it's doing. So how do we handle our work, our money, our life in the midst of everything that's going on? We cover that on our PSA

Thursday episodes. So make sure that you hit subscribe or follow in whatever app you're using to listen to this podcast so that you can catch our upcoming PSA Thursday episode. We will be talking about how to stay productive when you're working from home. I have a have not worked in an office setting since 2008. So I have a dozen years of experience of working from home or working from the world as I travel. And I can share many of those tips, plus other tips that I've collected from research and interviews, all of that, that information about how to stay productive when you're working from home. We're going to talk about that on this upcoming PSA Thursday. We'll also on upcoming shows be talking more about the markets.

You know, for many people, this is your first experience of a bare market. This is your first experience of a pullback. You know, we've had this 11-year bull run. And that has finally ended. So how do you manage your money, particularly if you're interested in early retirement or in FI? How do you manage your money if you are not yet FI versus if you are already FI? We're going to talk about that. Not on this upcoming Thursdays episode, but on probably next week's episode.

episode. So again, make sure that you are subscribed to this podcast. Just tap the subscribe button or the follow button in whatever app you're using to listen to this show. That way you won't miss any of our upcoming episodes in which we cover these important topics. I want to give a shout out to the sponsors for this episode, Grammarly, Beta Brand, KiwiCo, and Radius Bank. I appreciate them hanging in there even through this crisis. and I would encourage you to check them out. If you'd like to see a complete list of all of our sponsors and their deals and the discounts that they offer, you can find a list of all of that plus the coupon codes, the promo codes, all the discounts, you can find all of that at afford anything.com slash sponsors. That's affordanything.com slash sponsors. Thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Paula Pant.

This is the Afford Anything podcast. I'll catch you on Thursday.